Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHim. My name’s Hank Smith and I’m your host, and I’m here with my dreamy co-host, John Bytheway. John, we’re back, another episode of followHim, Book of Mormon.

John Bytheway: 00:00:16 I know why you said dreamy. I was hoping you’d say Banana Creamy. Those are really good, but we’ll take dreamy.

Hank Smith: 00:00:24 I’ll take dreamy. Hey, that’s good, John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:26 Daydreamy.

Hank Smith: 00:00:29 Don’t do that today. John, we have had a lot of fun. Our first two lessons in the Book of Mormon have just, to me, been absolutely exciting. I’m learning so much. How are you feeling so far? What are you looking forward to today?

John Bytheway: 00:00:42 I’ve taught the Book Mormon a lot and so have you, but it’s so fun to have a scholar come in and tell me things and for me to go, “Never saw that. Never knew that.” So I’m looking forward to that again today.

Hank Smith: 00:00:54 It is so fun, John, to have such insightful guides with us. It’s such a benefit. Speaking of insightful guides, John, we have an insightful guide with us today, Dr. Gaye Strathearn. Gaye, thank you for being here. What are we looking forward to today in our lesson?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:01:14 What I love about this, and I’ve noticed a little bit recently as I’m talking about it, is how important this dream is, dream vision for Nephi, and I’m really glad that we’ve split it off from Nephi’s version of this because I think what is happening here with Lehi is really, really important in its own right as he’s thinking about his family. This dream vision, I think, is very much for him, although later he’s going to see the more expanded implications of what he sees.

Hank Smith: 00:01:49 This is something that I think many of our listeners have read many times, Lehi’s dream, yet I think there’s some things that we’re going to learn today that perhaps we’ve never seen before.

John Bytheway: 00:02:00 Gaye is a professor in the Department of Ancient Scripture in Near Eastern Studies at BYU. We’ve had her on before. She’s taught at BYU since 1995, which is an important year for me. That’s the year that someone consented to marry me.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:02:13 Sweet.

John Bytheway: 00:02:15 Deeply appreciated that, including a year at the Jerusalem Center. Dr. Strathearn received her bachelor in physiotherapy from, I love this, the University of Queensland in Australia and bachelor’s and master’s degrees in Near Eastern Studies from BYU and a PhD in New Testament from Claremont Graduate University, and her research centers primarily on New Testament topics, and that’s why we’ve had her here before, especially those of interest to Latter-day Saints. We’re really glad to have you back, and I believe you’re also an associate dean. So I’m going to sit up really straight and do my best to be a good employee today.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:02:51 Thank you, John. It’s good to be here. Thanks for having me back.

Hank Smith: 00:02:55 We love having you here, Gaye. Really, it’s such a treat. I’m going to begin here, Gaye, with the Come, Follow Me manual, and then let’s dive in and see where you want to go. It says this. Lehi’s dream, with its iron rod, mists of darkness, spacious building, and tree with most sweet fruit is an inspiring invitation to receive the blessings of the Savior’s love and atoning sacrifice. For Lehi, however, this vision was also about his family. “Because of the things I have seen,” they’re quoting Lehi here, “I have reason to rejoice in the Lord because of Nephi and Sam, but behold Laman and Lemuel, I fear exceedingly because of you.”

  00:03:33 When Lehi finished describing his vision, he pleaded with Laman and Lemuel to hearken to his words that perhaps the Lord would be merciful to them. Even if you have studied Lehi’s vision many times, this time, think about it the way Lehi did. Think of someone you love. As you do, the security of the iron rod, the dangers of the spacious building, and the sweetness of the fruit will take on new meaning, and you will understand more deeply all the feelings of a tender parent who received this remarkable vision. What a beautiful opening paragraph there from the manual. Gaye, how should we approach our lesson today?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:04:08 Well, I’ve said it before that I’m a context person, so I always like to set what we’re talking about in the larger context of what’s happening in the Book of Mormon. I think that there’s some really fun things going on here that help me, at least, appreciate just how important this dream is for Nephi. I always look for things that jump out in scriptural texts and say, “Why is this happening?” In this case, it’s that Lehi’s dream is set in a section of scripture where we have two chapters, one before and one after, that seem to come out of nowhere. They interrupt the flow.

  00:04:52 Why is Nephi writing and putting chapter 6 and chapter 9 here? Both of these chapters are talking about plates and Nephi having two sets of plates, that he’s having a large set of plates where we all know he talks about the history, but then he’s also made these small plates, which he does about 30 years after the family leaves Jerusalem. This is now what Nephi is writing on.

  00:05:24 What he said is that up until now, he’s been abridging Lehi’s plates. He’s not including everything in it. He has chosen out of all of the stuff in Lehi’s plates to include this dream in the small plates. I think it’s important then for us to go through to remind ourselves about these small plates. Whereas the large plates deal with history and politics, Nephi is really clear that he is using these plates to choose things that are of great worth, that are pleasing to God. He says that the things will persuade people to come to the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob that they might be saved.

  00:06:14 Nephi has set up the vision by talking about that either end of the dream vision, and I see them as bookends. The technical term is inclusio. So if it starts with the importance of what’s on the small plates and it ends with the importance of what’s on the small plates, then it suggests to me that Nephi is wanting his audience to see just how important this is. He’s reinforcing to us that this dream vision is of great worth, that it is pleasing to God, and that it will bring us to God to help save us. So it gives us the context, I think, through which to think about what’s going on in the dream vision. That’s the first thing that I think is really important.

  00:07:02 Then the second one is in chapter 7, we have an introduction to what’s setting up the dream. Lehi has sent his sons back to Jerusalem again, this time to get wives. We don’t see them balking at that too much like they have previously, but it’s clear that Lehi is thinking about seed. The word seed is used all over the place in these chapters. They go back to get Ishmael and his family. We learn that the Lord softened Ishmael’s heart and that of his household, which is reminding us a little bit back to what the Lord did for Nephi in chapter 2. Nephi, it seems, was struggling just as much as Laman and Lemuel, but he reacted differently and the Lord softens his heart so that he did not rebel.

  00:07:59 Here, we have Ishmael’s family also being softened so that they’ll want to participate with Lehi and his family, but we are hearing as we get to the end of chapter 7 that as they’re on their way back, Laman and Lemuel and some of Ishmael’s family are going to rebel. This sets up the sense for me that Lehi is really concerned about his family, his posterity, and what’s going to happen to them. This dream, for me, is initially so focused on Lehi’s concern for his family, and particularly Laman and Lemuel. That’s the second introductory thing.

  00:08:42 Then the third is just a question I have, and I don’t know that I can answer it definitively. Lehi is having this revelatory experience. I wonder what was the catalyst for this experience. Visions don’t usually come out of the blue. They usually come because people are asking questions or they’re reading scripture, and that leads to questions itself. So I’ve looked at the larger context of this dream vision. I’m thinking back to chapter 5 where the brothers have returned with the plates, the brass plates. I see there in chapter 5 that Lehi is really, really anxious to read them. It’s almost like they come back and he immediately goes away in his tent and starts reading them. God is commanding him to study and search these plates, and I’m wondering if it is what he’s reading on the plates that is acting as a catalyst for this dream vision.

  00:09:54 My next question is, well, what would it have been on the brass plates that might have sparked this experience for him? My thought is I think that he was reading Zenos’ Allegory of the Olive Tree. I hope in our discussions we can talk a little bit about that because Zenos’ allegory, at least Jacob’s version of it, is asking the question, is there hope for the house of Israel who have rejected the Messiah or the stone upon which they should build, and having then rejected it, Is there any hope for them? That’s how Jacob introduces the allegory of the olive tree in chapter 5. So that’s the end of chapter 4. I’m wondering again whether Lehi is wondering, “Is there any hope for Laman and Lemuel? They’re rejecting things, but is there any hope for them?” That’s how I see things as I think through this vision in its context.

Hank Smith: 00:11:05 Gaye, that’s an interesting point that you bring up. 1 Nephi 5, right at the very end, we obtained the records, we searched them, we found them, they were desirable, great worth unto us, and then they’re searching them, and it connects it to their children insomuch that we would preserve the commandments of the Lord unto our children. You can see what you just said in Lehi there, searching them and thinking about his posterity.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:11:32 I think that that really is the motivating factor here.

John Bytheway: 00:11:35 I love that idea. It was after Lehi went through these that he maybe had his mind on his own family and then this dream came. 1 Nephi 6 is short. There’s only six verses, but I love the sixth verse where Nephi says, “I shall give commandment unto my seed that they shall not occupy these plates with things which are not of worth unto the children of men.” I like to read that to my class and ask them, “Do you think that Nephi’s posterity kept this commandment?” and they all say, “Yeah,” and they say, “So there’s something of worth in the war chapters, huh? Let’s go find it.” There’s something of worth in every chapter, and if you don’t see it, the writer saw it. Our job is to search and ponder and find those things which are of worth. I just wanted to give a shout out to 1 Nephi 6:6. I love that verse.

Hank Smith: 00:12:27 If we are going into it thinking, “Well, I don’t think this has any value.”

John Bytheway: 00:12:31 No, there’s a reason it’s there.

Hank Smith: 00:12:34 Keep looking. Keep searching.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:12:35 I’ve also been thinking about chapter 7 because chapter 7 and chapter 8 also align in some other ways. When Laman and Lemuel and some of Ishmael’s family begin to rebel, Nephi reaches out to them and he asks them a series of questions. I love the questions and I think that they’re applicable for all of us. He can’t understand how they can be rebelling at this point and so he says in verse 8 of chapter 7, “How is it that ye are so hard in your hearts and so blind in your minds? How is it that you have not hearkened unto the word of the Lord? How is it that you have forgotten that ye have seen an angel of the Lord? How is it that ye have forgotten the great things that the Lord has done for us in delivering us out of the hands of Laban, and how is it that ye have forgotten that the Lord is able to do all things according to His will if people will just exercise faith in Him?”

  00:13:48 Then he goes on and says, “Let’s be faithful,” and he’s working with them because he says that there’s great blessings in choosing to follow God. Is it going to be hard? Absolutely, but we will receive a land of promise if we’re faithful, we’re going to know that about Jerusalem’s destruction, and we’re going to see the hand of God in saving us from that because we’ve listened to our Father, and if you return to Jerusalem like you want, you’re going to be destroyed. Of course, Laman and Lemuel are just angry with Nephi about that and that shouldn’t surprise us because it happens quite a bit. They want to lay their hands on him and have him die by wild beasts and things like that, but Nephi’s faith and prayers in that lead to seeing another evidence that God is involved in their lives and He’s not just some theoretical being, but He’s intimately involved.

  00:14:47 So I like to see that because Nephi, like his father Lehi in the next chapter, is really, really concerned about his brothers. He’s trying so desperately to help them see as he sees and understand as he understands. Nephi and Lehi never give up on Laman and Lemuel, and that I think is a beautiful part of these early chapters of the Book of Mormon as well, and they teach me something about God, and hopefully that He is not going to give up on me even though I do stupid things sometimes and sometimes I fail to see, but that He’s always there for me if I can just wake up and remember how great He has been in my life.

Hank Smith: 00:15:36 I think the Holy Ghost might ask me some of those same questions, “How is it that you have forgotten? How is it that you’re so quick to forget?” I think Mormon says later in the Book of Helaman, “How quick we are to forget.” Gaye, you said something earlier that I wanted to ask you about. You said Nephi made these plates 30 years after these events. Do you see that impacting the way he writes because he knows how this plays out? As he’s writing this story, he knows how this is going to end. Perhaps seeing the heartbreak already, seeing where the decisions led them and the break that they have in opening chapters of 2 Nephi, that might influence the way he describes what happened with them.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:16:23 That’s absolutely true. With the value of hindsight, we are able to see little things along the way that we might not have seen while we’re in the midst of things, and that’s why I think it’s important to see these editorial choices that he makes because he’s doing it with hindsight. So how can I make sure that people don’t miss this story? How do I make sure that readers don’t just jump to Nephi’s version of it, which is different than what Lehi is doing? How do I set this apart so that it stands out in the minds of the readers and sees how really, really valuable I see this dream vision?

Hank Smith: 00:17:04 So he chooses to highlight it by putting those bookends on either side. Of course, in the original text, there’s no chapter breaks as we would see it. It would be one cohesive section, inclusio, with these highlights on either end that would make that stand out. As you read along, he would say, “Look, I’m starting this story and here I finished this portion.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:17:26 We do that with chapter breaks in our minds, but the ancients had different ways of highlighting the really important stuff. This is one way to do it.

Hank Smith: 00:17:36 Excellent.

John Bytheway: 00:17:37 I’m glad that both of you mentioned those three verses in a row. 1 Nephi 7: 10, 11, and 12 that all begin, “How is it that ye have forgotten?” You might remember the First Presidency Christmas Devotional, Sister Tracy Browning quoted President Spencer W. Kimball, who made this great observation. He said, “When you look in the dictionary for the most important word, do you know what it is?” and he said, “It could be remember.” Think of all the things we learned in New Testament. All the feasts were to help them remember the Exodus and their deliverance and parts of that.

  00:18:13 A fun way to go through the Book of Mormon or something to watch for is for the words remember and forget, the opposite. You’ll see there, “O remember, remember my sons,” but you’ll also see, “Don’t forget these three verses here,” and it seems like we need reminders of how merciful God has been. Right on the title page that we talked about a couple of weeks ago, the idea of remember the great things the Lord has done because it’s easy to forget. I think, Hank, we also talked about journals, didn’t we, and how President Eyring said that you document the hand of God in your life and a journal will help us remember those things too.

Hank Smith: 00:18:52 Excellent. Absolutely excellent. You can almost hear Nephi saying, “You have forgotten, but I remember. I remembered to hearkeneth to the word for the Lord. I remember you seeing an angel. I remember the great things the Lord has done for us in delivering us out of the hands of Laban.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:19:08 “And because I remember, I will go and do even the hard things that the Lord invited.”

Hank Smith: 00:19:14 John, as you made that comment, I thought of all the ways the Lord brings a remembrance. I just think all the things I’ve asked to do are probably, at least in part, helping me remember. Isn’t that a big part of the sacrament that they will always remember?

John Bytheway: 00:19:30 That’s exactly what President Kimball said in the latter part of that quotation is that you got to go to sacrament and hear the priests pray that we will always remember. Isn’t it nice that the sacrament is every week? We don’t pull the tables out of the storage by the cultural hall every Christmas and Easter, but it’s every single week, every single week, which is also just evidence of the Lord’s mercy like, “Come back, let’s do this again. You’re going to need this. Let’s never forget. Let’s remember.”

Hank Smith: 00:20:00 John, this is going to be a little fun quotation, but I thought of it as you were making your comment. The movie Lion King, where Simba checks out-

John Bytheway: 00:20:08 “Remember who you are?”

Hank Smith: 00:20:09 … gets far away. Mufasa, “Simba.” “Father?” “Simba, you have forgotten me.” “No, no. How could I?” “You have forgotten who you are and so forgotten me.” Let’s see if I can channel my inward James Earl Jones. “Look inside yourself. Simba. You are more than what you have become.” “How can I go back? I’m not who I used to be.” “Remember who you are. You are my son and the one true king. Remember who you are.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:20:40 Well, that’s really impressive, Hank, that you could quote all of that.

John Bytheway: 00:20:43 You must have children.

Hank Smith: 00:20:48 So Gaye, I just wanted to mention one thing. I wanted to ask you about this. It’s interesting to me when they go back to talk to Ishmael’s family, they go back to Jerusalem, Nephi mentions that they journeyed into the wilderness with Laman and Lemuel-

John Bytheway: 00:21:02 Verse 6.

Hank Smith: 00:21:03 … Nephi, Sam. He lists all these people, but Zoram does not go with them back, at least it’s not mentioned. I’ve wondered if Zoram is a wanted man in Jerusalem.

John Bytheway: 00:21:15 A crime suspect, right?

Hank Smith: 00:21:18 Laban’s been killed, the plates are missing, and the one guy who’s gone is Zoram. So I’ve often thought, I wonder if they brought a wanted poster back with them said, “Hey, Zoram, they’re looking for you back there.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:21:32 Well, that’s an interesting possibility.

John Bytheway: 00:21:35 You have to admire Ishmael and their family, and clearly, the Lord softened their heart, but, hey, Lehi, probably a cousin, don’t the scholars think, or some relation to Lehi? My cousin had a dream everybody pack up or leaving. I just think this is amazing, especially when people were so tied to the land that God gave them after the Exodus and to just pack up and leave. Must have been … We do that now. Our kids go off to college, they meet somebody, they get married, they move off somewhere, but back then, do you just move like this?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:22:12 No, and especially as you noted, leaving from Jerusalem and from the Promised Land. We see this later in the Book of Mormon where they seem to be really wrestling with the implications of this move and leaving behind their covenant lands, seeing themselves. They’re going to reinterpret scripture, reinterpret Isaiah and other places according to their experience. That’s really important to understand because they’re seeing themselves as part of the scattering, but they also want to understand Isaiah and not just the scattering but part of the gathering. Whereas Isaiah, it’s gathering back to the land. There’s this realization that they’re never going to come back to this land, and now they’re looking for their gathering in another land and trying to understand it.

  00:23:10 While they’re interpreting Isaiah, and it might be easy for us to say, “Oh, well, this is what Isaiah originally intended,” I don’t think that that’s the case. I think that they’re just Interpreting the scripture according to them and their needs and trying to see meaning of it, and they’re seeing it in the scattering, but more importantly, the gathering of Israel. Of course, the Savior, when He comes to 3 Nephi, is going to reiterate that. It is such a difficult thing for it that they’ve got to look at scripture, their scripture through new eyes and see things a little bit more uniquely for them.

Hank Smith: 00:23:48 I’ve wondered if Lehi and Ishmael had already discussed this journey earlier and Lehi says, “I’ll go out into the wilderness and then have your family come join us.” I don’t know if that happened or not, but there’s one thing about talking about something and it’s an entirely another issue to actually follow through and do something so drastic. The faith of Ishmael and his family has to be mentioned and thought of.

John Bytheway: 00:24:14 I think about these mission leaders too that have to go tell their kids, “Hey, we’re going to Argentina,” that are called when they still have children in school. These kids that say, “Okay, mom and dad, we’ll go.” There’s a lot of amazing families out there that do something similar, I think.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:24:32 I put this at the beginning of chapter 8 when he’s coming into the dream, and verse 2, “Comes to pass while my father tarried in the wilderness, he spake unto us saying, ‘Behold, I have dreamed a dream,'” or in other words, “I have seen a vision.” Now that language is really interesting. From my schooling, I remember this and I have no idea why I remember it, but is stuck in my brain, but dreamed a dream is a cognate accusative. Why I remember that? I have no idea, but it’s all throughout the Book of Mormon, but it’s also throughout the Old Testament where they’re having visions and especially interpretive or symbolic visions. That’s the language that they use.

  00:25:15 As I thought about this again in the context of what’s happening here, this language of dreamed a dream is meaning that Lehi’s family are going to go, “Oh, this dude’s a visionary man.” So the book opens with a vision that he has, and what’s the result of this for Laman and Lemuel? They have to leave Jerusalem and leave all their wealth behind. They’re murmuring against Lehi and they say, “He’s a visionary man.” They’re saying it in a very, very negative way because there’s a cost to them because of the vision of their father.

  00:25:53 The next time we see this, he’s going to say to his sons, “I’ve had another one of these visions. Go back to Jerusalem and get the plates.” The result of this is Sariah is going when she thinks her sons are dead because they’re taking so long to come back and she starts to complain, and what does she complain? “Lehi, you are a visionary man and there’s some costs involved with that,” and you can see Lehi going and he says to his wife, “I know that I’m a visionary man. I’m going to own that, but this is not just a negative thing. This for me is an important thing. It’s because I’m a visionary man that I’ve seen the goodness of God” and those kind of things.

  00:26:35 So far, every time he said this, there’s been some negative consequences, at least from the perspective of his family. When he gets up in chapter 8 again and said, “I have dreamed a dream,” I can only imagine what is going through Laman and Lemuel’s minds. They’re going, “Oh, no, not again. What’s going to be the cost to us this time because of what’s going on? Oh, gosh.” I can see the dread kind of going through them, but I can also imagine that Nephi is anxious to hear this revelatory experience of his father.

Hank Smith: 00:27:09 “No, you need to stop having these dreams.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:27:14 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:27:16 “Stop dreaming. Stop sleeping.” Gaye, I wonder if they’re frustrated as well that Nephi is becoming a visionary man, “Oh, no. We’ve got a second one coming up through the ranks.” Back in chapter 7, Nephi says, “They sought to take away my life out in the wilderness on their way returning with Ishmael’s family.” Back when I was a younger seminary teacher, I had a student in my class say she just really loved verses 17 and 18. I said, “Why do you love it?” and she said, “Well, notice that Nephi prays, ‘Give me strength that I may burst these bands with which I am bound.'” That’s verse 17 and verse 18 she pointed out to me that it says, “When I said these words, the bands were loosed from off my hands and my feet.”

  00:28:06 She said, “I just really like that because sometimes we expect our prayers to be answered in a certain way.” Nephi wants bands bursting, hitting people in the face like the incredible Hulk moment. Instead, the bands did come off, but they were loosed. Just a little insight that a student showed me years and years ago that I’ve never forgotten that pray for something to happen and then be okay if something different is the result.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:28:35 Because the implication is Nephi still has to do some work. If they’re burst, then God has done all of the work, but there’s still a little bit of struggle for Nephi to have the desired result.

Hank Smith: 00:28:46 I’ve noticed also, Gaye, that one thing we can watch for is what it takes to humble Laman and Lemuel. It seems that it takes more and more throughout 1 and 2 Nephi. Right here, it just takes one of the daughters of Ishmael, the mother, some of the sons, “Pleading with my brethren,” and it softens their heart, but later it’s going to be a storm that’s threatening their lives that softens their heart. So just maybe something to watch for as we go through. One other thing in chapter 7, Gaye, I wanted to ask you about is this how quick Nephi is to forgive and how do we get to that point, “I did frankly forgive them all that they had done,” as if it’s that easy.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:29:33 Well, I think that this speaks to Nephi’s love for his brothers. I think that I would be struggling a little bit with that love part given that all that they have done to him, but it’s not just … He’s been beaten, not just bound, but beaten, and to be able to forgive them with all of these things just speaks to the love that he has. I would see this as him having a sense of with his maturing himself spiritually and in preparing for the time when he will take over the prophetic mantle, but these are all tutoring opportunities that the Lord is giving him to practice loving as God loves, to having that agape type of experience because he has to learn it. I don’t think it happens automatically given their responses to him.

Hank Smith: 00:30:32 So interesting. We can see some of these early experiences as tutoring for what he’s going to become. I really like that.

John Bytheway: 00:30:40 I like in verse 20 how, “They did bow down before me and plead that I would forgive them.” I’m reminded of who is it that bows down to Peter? “Hey, we are men of passions like yourselves. Don’t bow down to us.” Nephi does that same thing, verse 21, “I told them to pray unto the Lord their God for forgiveness.” I like that thing. “What are you bowing down for me for? Ask God for forgiveness.” I’m reminded of Peter. Doesn’t that happen to Paul too?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:31:05 It does happen to Paul. They think that they’re gods and he says, “No, I’m not a god.”

John Bytheway: 00:31:11 “No, no, no, no. Don’t bow down to me. Bow down to God.” So I like that Nephi does that too.

Hank Smith: 00:31:15 I have a little thought from James E. Faust. This is back from the 1900s. I don’t know if you guys-

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:31:19 1900.

Hank Smith: 00:31:22 … can remember that far back. He said, “Those who extend judgment, mercy, faith, and forgiveness exhibit a greatness of soul, a greatness of soul and mind consistent with the spirit of the Lord’s teachings.” I liked that phrase, a greatness of soul. Forgiveness can be difficult, but it can exhibit that idea that I’m really taking in the teachings of the Lord and it’s changing my soul, it’s changing who I am.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:31:50 Sacrifices, as we know, was a really, really important part of, well, the gospels, not just the Mosaic stuff from the Book of Moses. We know they were doing this very early on. The giving of an animal, there was always a cost involved to an individual. Even if they owned their own herds, there’s a cost because if you give an animal and the best of the animals to offer up as a sacrifice, that means they’re not only decreasing the numbers of their herd, but it also means that they’re losing everything that might come from that animal, whether it be milk or whether it be further offspring or whether it’s sheep, the wool or something. They’re losing access to that and they’re giving it to God. That was always going to be difficult for people even with some money, but imagine those who don’t have that.

  00:32:50 So why does God want to do that? Why is He asking us to do that, especially in our poverty or especially as we’re itinerants wandering in the desert? At least part of it maybe, God, of course, would have to speak for Himself on this, but I think generally, mortals are very self-centered. I’m sure that there’s a reason for that in terms of protection and being able to survive difficult things, but we think about ourselves, “What is it that I need to survive? What do I need to help me along?” It’s about me, me, me, but what God is asking us to do is to stop and say, “Hang on a minute. It’s not just about me. Life is so much more than that. This is also about giving. It’s about God. It’s about those around us,” and sacrifices were a way to show God that we’re committed to Him and that He will use His sacrifices to bless the lives of others who are also in need.

  00:33:54 So I think in some way these sacrifices were about us getting out of the self-centeredness and help us to see that there are other needs and there are some things that are more important than us.

Hank Smith: 00:34:06 There seems to be something about sacrifice that changes the individual. I can’t imagine the Lord is saying, “Hey, I need this from you.” I think He’s saying, “You need this from you.” I think about tithing. The Lord doesn’t need it. I need it. I need to pay my tithing. In this Old Testament times where they burn the entire animal sometimes, I can’t imagine. I can’t imagine taking a bunch of cash to the bishop and he just burns it. That would be so, “What did we just do?” but that was essentially part of what they did at times.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:34:43 One of the things though that I think we sometimes don’t always appreciate when we’re thinking about sacrifices, particularly under the Mosaic law, that it was always the intent that the sacrifice was an outward manifestation of what’s going on inside of ourself. We talk about a broken heart and a contrite spirit, and certainly, the Savior when He comes, He’s going to talk about, “Well, this is the sacrifice that I want to concentrate on now,” but that was always, always a part of the Mosaic law. We often think of it’s just the outward sacrifices, but when the prophet’s talking about people of broken covenants and things like that, they’re talking about, at least in part, sacrifices and you haven’t done it the way that I intended. You’ve just done the outward thing without having this outward being a reflection of what’s happening internally.

Hank Smith: 00:35:39 I remember last year for our lesson on the Garden of Gethsemane, Dr. Dan Belnap taught us something that had great impact on me. He said, “In the ancient world, sacrifice wasn’t giving something up, it was making something holy. It was, ‘I’m going to make this thing holy.'” That really had impact on me as I think about the time that I give to callings and temple attendance and church attendance. Instead of giving that time up, I’m making that time holy. The money that I give, it’s not giving it up, it’s making it holy. That really had impact on me.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:36:15 Leviticus tells us that in the process of doing that, we become holy. It’s not just the sacrifice becomes holy, but we become holy as God is holy. That’s the whole point of all of this is becoming holy.

Hank Smith: 00:36:27 Gaye, we’ve spent time in chapter 6, chapter 9, and chapter 7, and just a tiny bit in chapter 8, and I know that as you and I discussed this interview that chapter 8 was really the jewel of this lesson. So I want to give you plenty of time in chapter 8. How should we go about reading this incredible experience Lehi has?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:36:49 I think if we work through it methodically, there’s a couple of things I think are important. Then what I’d like to do is also jump to chapter 10 because as I read this at least, this is Lehi’s interpretation of what he’s just experienced. So I think we get some really good stuff and, of course, that’s going to have a huge impact on Nephi because then he desires to see and hear and know the things that his father saw.

Hank Smith: 00:37:20 So we have the vision in chapter 8 and the interpretation in chapter 10.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:37:25 That’s what I think is happening there. We’ve already mentioned that as a result of this dream vision, Lehi has great hopes for Nephi and Sam and Sariah, but also has great fears for Laman and Lemuel. Then he goes and he talks about this experience that he had. One of the first things I want to notice is we’ve talked about the plates and how we’re now on the small plates, how precious the space is here and things like that. What is interesting to me here that at least for the first part of the vision, as Nephi is recording this, he chooses to do it in the first person. He’s not just summarizing what Lehi had experienced. He is doing specifically it’s Lehi speaking, and that goes up until verse 29. Nephi says, “And now I, Nephi, do not speak all of the words of my father,” but from that point on, it goes to third person. Nephi seems to be summarizing what his father says, but early on, this is first person and that’s important to him.

  00:38:44 In verse 5, “It came to pass that,” notice it, “I saw a man,” Lehi, “and he was dressed in a white robe and came and stood before me, and it came to pass that he spake unto me and bade me follow him.” Lehi is getting a guide here. We don’t know whether this man is an angel because we’re in a dream, we’re in the symbolic world rather than the world as we know it, but he’s getting a guide here, but we don’t see the guide doing very much, which is very different from Nephi’s experience later on. He just says, “Come and follow me.” “And it came to pass that as I followed him, I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste. After I had traveled for the space of many hours in darkness, I began to pray unto the Lord that He would have mercy on me according to the multitude of His tender mercies.”

  00:39:44 We don’t really know a whole lot of what this dark and dreary waste is. It doesn’t sound wonderful. I think it’s in great contrast to when he sees the tree, and so that offsets things, and in symbolic things, you often like a dark and a light to contrast what’s really important here. I think Lehi is going to refer to that later in his interpretation and we’ll leave that for then.

Hank Smith: 00:40:12 Gaye, I would think to myself, “Hey, that’s the last time I’m following that guy.”

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:40:14 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:40:15 He said, “Follow me,” and then he disappears and went into the dark.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:40:21 That’s my experience.

Hank Smith: 00:40:21 Right. That’s a lot.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:40:22 It goes on for hours. It’s not a short thing. It’s ongoing.

Hank Smith: 00:40:26 Is it a little bit like Joseph Smith’s experience, that contrast between, “I was seized upon by a power that had such astonishing influence over me to bind my tongue I couldn’t speak and then the light comes”?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:40:40 That’s very, very important. He sees, “It came to pass that after I prayed unto the Lord I beheld a large and spacious field.” So we’re getting his coming out of this darkness. Exactly what the field is, I don’t know, but he still has to go a certain way until verse 10, “It came to pass that I beheld a tree.” Now, this tree, we don’t know what it is. Lehi doesn’t ever tell us what it is, but I am going to jump ahead to Nephi, at least for this one verse, and he’s going to call it the tree of life.

  00:41:14 I think that that’s a really important thing to do. Trees in the ancient world often had this symbolic sense of importance, and the tree of life was very, very ubiquitous in the ancient world, and there’s lots of ways to understand it, but a tree was symbolic of a conduit between the earth, the underworld, and the heavens. So it was often seen as something like that’s called an axis mundi, but a place where all three spheres can be connected in some way.

  00:41:50 Trees or a tree of life is often associated with temples, and we see them there all of the time. I think that that’s a really nice image of connecting heaven with earth and the underworld as well, the living on earth, the dead, and the heavens, so this connection is conduit between them. In the Hebrew temple, this tree of life is symbolized by the menorah that was in the holy place. So this is a very prominent symbol, and it’s often associated with this idea of life, an eternal life, and the opportunity for people to receive that, which I think works really nicely here given ultimately what we see.

Hank Smith: 00:42:34 Gaye, what a fascinating idea. I remember in the Book of Revelation John says they couldn’t find someone to open the seals of the book so they looked in heaven and in earth and under the earth, and there you’ve got a tree that reaches the heavens, it touches the earth, and it goes under the earth. What a beautiful insight. I’ve never seen that before.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:42:57 Remember, I wanted to connect this with Zenos’ allegory. So we have lots of trees there in that, and the roots are really, really important for the tree, and in Zenos’ allegory, it’s the thing that lasts even when the tree begins to die, is the roots representing of the covenants. Israel itself will have fruitful and decaying times, but as long as the roots are strong, then olive tree can come back and to regrow, and that’s what this Zenos’ allegory is all about and why the olive tree is often associated with eternal life because an olive tree, the roots can survive for a thousand years even though the tree decays and grows back.

  00:43:44 So there’s lots of symbolism in that tree, but just again as in Zenos’ allegory, it’s the tree is important, but the tree is important because of the fruit that it produces. Nephi is going to spend a lot of time talking about this fruit. It is described as it was desirable, to make one happy, the fruit was most sweet above all that Lehi had ever tasted, and the fruit thereof was white, to exceed all of the whiteness that I had ever seen. Alma later on is going to pick up in that same kind of language when he’s talking about the seed and the seed growing into a tree and a tree producing fruit. He uses that same kind of language about the fruit thereof.

  00:44:38 As he partook of the fruit, “It filled my soul with exceedingly great joy. Wherefore, I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it as well.” The purpose of the tree is to provide the fruit here, and this is something that Lehi had never experienced in his world. He’s clearly had trees. He’s had olive trees. They would’ve been around there, but this tree and this fruit is very, very different. He has made this journey to the tree. It’s been difficult for him, but what he’s seeing is even though he went for hours in this dark and dreary waste, that didn’t matter because this fruit is so supernal for him.

John Bytheway: 00:45:26 I often throw this out to my students, “Why would a man in a white robe, that sounds like a positive thing, and he bade me follow him. That sounds like a positive thing. Why would he lead you to darkness?” We have concluded that he wasn’t leading him to the darkness, but perhaps he was leading him through the darkness. Maybe this is symbolic of the fall or something like that. Throughout the scriptures, there’s this idea that you’ve got to go through the wilderness to get to the Promised Land.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:45:55 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:45:56 I love the idea that it’s dark and then he prayed, and then after he prayed in verse 9, “After I prayed, I beheld.” It’s like the Lord turned the lights on. “It was dark, I couldn’t see, but after I prayed, I could see. After I prayed, I beheld.” That’s the first time he mentions a large and spacious field. So it sounds like the Lord flipped the lights on after he prayed. I want to believe that it was the right thing for him to do to follow this being in the white robe, but maybe He was leading him through the darkness, not to the darkness.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:46:32 Part of that is that this is representative of mortality, and that mortality is meant to be difficult. It’s meant, because how are we going to learn if we don’t have to struggle with things. Mortality is something God wanted for each and every one of us so that we could progress, but we couldn’t progress in the pre-mortal world because we needed these kind of challenges. We needed to learn how to choose God in mortality even when there’s a veil put upon us so that He gives us a world of choices. Agency is very, very important in God’s eternal plan, but the reason we have agency is not necessarily so that we can choose everything or anything.

  00:47:17 Lehi teaches us in 2 Nephi 2, “But we have agency so that in this world we can still choose God.” Are we willing to do that even when there’s a veil on us? Are we able to do it? I think we are able to do it when we have guides, but it’s difficult. We have to learn in the process. We’ve got to embark upon this journey through difficulties so that we can better appreciate the fruit and the tree when we come to it.

John Bytheway: 00:47:50 That’s an opposition in all things message. I always like to emphasize this part because when we think tree of life, we think, “Oh, yeah, tree, rod of iron, path, building,” but don’t forget the first part. He went through this darkness first. In the story of Job, what does God say to him? “Were you there when the sons of God shouted for joy?” and Elder Maxwell said, “Now that we’re here, we’re wondering what all the shouting was about on earth.” I think, yeah, we chose to come through mortality and, boy, it begins like this. It’s going through a lot of darkness, but if we will pray, we can behold. God will help us see the light literally and see what this is all about, but immediately, there’s an opposition in all things as the vision starts.

Hank Smith: 00:48:33 You both are showing me things I’ve never seen. John, you’re absolutely right. He says, “I followed this man who dressed in a white robe, told me to follow him,” and he says that’s not when he’s introduced to the darkness. If you read 7 closely, he says, “It came to pass that as I followed him, I beheld myself that I was in a dark and dreary waste.” It’s almost as if he was already in the dark and dreary waste, didn’t know he was until this man showed up and he said, “Oh, I was able to look around and see things as they really are, that I was in this dark and dreary waste. I didn’t know that I was until I followed that man.” That was really good, both of you.

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 00:49:14 So there’s one other thing that I think is important here, and that’s if we’re calling this tree the tree of life, which Nephi does, and we’re talking about fruit and the tree of life, I hope that there’s all sorts of bells going off in our head thinking about another place where there was a tree of life and there’s fruit. Everybody who was reading this in antiquity and I hope in the modern day should be thinking, I think, of the experience in the Garden of Eden, where they had the opportunity to experience things, they chose to partake of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but when that happens, they’re cast out of the garden and a cherubim and a flaming sword is placed to guard the way, and the word in Greek, the derek, the path to the tree of life.

  00:50:08 So in the Genesis story, they are prevented. It seems like God doesn’t want them to partake of the fruit of the tree of life, and that seems to be very different than what’s going on here in Nephi’s dream vision because God wants Lehi to partake. Lehi wants his family to partake. So as I was looking at and thinking about why in Genesis it’s a negative thing to partake of the fruit of the tree of life, why is it so positive here in Lehi’s experience where he thinks it’s great to partake of it and so much so that he wants to invite his family to join with him. I was thinking about some of Alma’s teachings to his son, Corianton, where he’s talking a bit about the tree of life, and starting maybe in verse 4 where he’s just talked about the cherubim and the flaming sword that he should not partake of the fruit.

  00:51:09 Thus we see that there was a time granted unto man to repent, a probationary time, a time to repent and serve God, for behold, if Adam had put forth his hand immediately and partaken of the tree of life, he would’ve lived forever according to the word of God. So he would’ve lived forever in his fallen state, according to the word of God, having no space for repentance. That to me explains Genesis. So what is different then from what’s going on here in chapter 8 is because it’s not that God never wants humans to partake of the fruit of the tree of life, but He doesn’t want them to do it in a fallen state. He’d rather he did it in a redeemed state. In a redeemed state, then the full force positive sense of the fruit can take hold of a person and the person can be transformed into a spiritual being.

  00:52:14 What I think is happening is Lehi and at least Sariah and Sam were good people, they understand about Christ and what He’s doing, they want to listen, they’re open to revelatory experiences here, and that they’re being beckoned and having the opportunity because they’re in this redeemed state. It doesn’t mean that they’re a perfect state, but in a state of redemption because of Christ’s Atonement on their behalf that they can partake of the full value or the full extent of partaking of the fruit. I think that that’s a really, really beautiful idea.

  00:52:53 It may also explain why Laman and Lemuel have no desire to come to the tree because they have rejected God. They’ve rejected His prophets. They’ve rejected what God wants for this family, they stay away. Then it’s very interesting to me, and actually, I just read this last night as I was preparing, I was reading one of my colleague’s work, Joe Spencer, talking about this vision and he makes something that I had never thought of before, that this dream vision seems to be in two parts.

  00:53:33 Initially, this is about Lehi and his family. He’s worried about his seed, and Laman and Lemuel are an important part of that. They refuse in verse 17. He was desirous that Laman and Lemuel should come and partake of the fruit also, “Wherefore, I did cast mine eyes towards the head of the river that perhaps I might see them, and it came to pass that I saw them, but they would not come unto me and partake of the fruit.” I like that come unto me, “They refuse to come unto me,” come unto me not just as their father, but as God’s mouthpiece on the earth for them at this point. They refuse that invitation that God was extending to them through their father.

  00:54:17 Then Lehi seems to see more things. He sees a rod of iron, he sees the narrow path, he sees the head of the fountain. Now, we’ve extended this is no longer becoming just about Lehi and his family. Now, we’re seeing numberless concourses of people, many of whom were pressing forward and trying to get to the tree. One of the things that Joe said here that I just never thought of, these numberless people is Lehi here not just seeing people in general, but seeing the seed of Laman and Lemuel and how the struggle it is for them to come maybe because of the rippling effects of Laman and Lemuel’s choices, but their struggle is very different than what Nephi, Lehi, Sam go through.

  00:55:23 Certainly, there’s a dreary world that they have to go through, but this just seems to be a struggle after struggle, but God has put in place aids for them in this struggle to get to the tree. So the rod of iron then becomes something for them to hang onto and to guide them through the mists of darkness, something for them to hang onto even though people in the great and spacious building are mocking them and things like that. Is this dream then about the consequences, this is the second half, the consequences of Laman and Lemuel’s rejection of the opportunity and the impact that that has on their posterity as they go forward?

  00:56:07 Some of them try and succeed. Some of them may even get to the tree, but then they clearly aren’t totally committed to it. They might’ve experienced some great things of God, but the pull of the world continues to have an impact upon them. Some of them just never make it to the tree because the mists of darkness become so difficult for them. Elder Bednar has talked a lot about this like the different people. There’s people who grab onto the rod but then let go. We have them clinging to the rod of iron but they get there and then they walk away and then he comes down, and he particularly notices that there are those who are pressing forward, who are catching hold on the end of the rod of iron in verse 30.

  00:56:58 The important part that Elder Bednar points out is that they’re continually holding to the rod of iron until they come down and fall down and partake of the fruit of the tree. Again, we have this sense of this proskynesis that we see throughout the Book of Mormon and the biblical record of people falling down on their face. Prone is what you do when you enter the presence of God. This is a form of worship reserved for kings, but more particularly for Gods, and these fall down at the tree as they partake of it because they’re recognizing that they’re entering the presence of God.

  00:57:39 This tree and the fruit then becomes even more powerful, and I think connects us more powerfully even with the temple because the purpose of going to the temple in antiquity and modern day is not just to get baptized, it’s not for others. It’s not just to get sealed. It’s not just to make an endowment. All of those are critically, critically important, but they’re a means to an end. They’re not the end in and of itself. We go to the temple to enter the presence of God, and all of these things help us on the journey. If we lose sight of that fact, then we’ve missed the very heart and soul of what temple here. So in this case then, the tree represents the presence of God and all of the fruits and blessings that come from paying the price to enter into His presence. The blessings of eternity become manifest, which is what the temple is all about for us, I think.

Hank Smith: 00:58:43 Beautiful.

John Bytheway: 00:58:44 I love that the tree is an eternal symbol. Where do you find the beginning of a tree? Well, it comes from a seed. Okay, where’d that come from? Well, it came from a tree. Well, where did that come from? Well, it came from a seed. You can’t find the beginning of a tree. We’re not there yet, but the great and spacious building is something man-made, but the tree is something God created and it’s this eternal symbol, as you mentioned so beautifully. I love that when Lehi, as soon as he partakes of the fruit in verse 12, he says, “Where’s my family? I began to be desirous that my family should partake of it also.” Have you ever been to a restaurant and you’ve tasted something and you’re, “Oh, oh, you’ve got to try this. Here, swallow that. You have got to try this.”

Hank Smith: 00:59:29 You’re almost forcing it like, “You’ve got to … Here, here.”

John Bytheway: 00:59:31 You’re so willing to share something because you want someone else to have that joy that you just had. So I think it’s such a natural reaction that Lehi tastes it and, “Where is my family?” When he sees them in verse 14, “I beheld your mother Sariah and Sam and Nephi,” and then this wonderful line, “They stood as if they knew not whither they should go.” I put in my margin, Doctrine and Covenants Section 123 verse 12, where that letter from Liberty Jail, “There are many yet on the earth who are only kept from the truth because they know not where to find it.” So where do you look? You look to a prophet who says, “Come unto me.”

  01:00:11 As Gaye pointed out, verse 18, this is a gut-wrenching verse. They would not come. It’s not they could not come, it’s not something was preventing them. What’s the difference between could not and would not? They chose not to come. That’s a hard verse, that’s a hard reality for lots of family members who are enjoying the fruit of the gospel and inviting some to come and they would not come. They will not come. They choose not to come.

Hank Smith: 01:00:40 I noticed in that time, John, that Lehi doesn’t leave the tree to go get them.

John Bytheway: 01:00:45 Elder Kevin Pearson gave a talk about stay by the tree. You see in 19, 20, 21, “The tree by which I stood, the tree by which I stood, the tree by which I stood.” So it’s like as soon as Lehi found it, “I’m not going anywhere.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:01 As a parent, you might be tempted, “Let me go where you are,” yet Lehi seems to understand something, “The only way I’m going to get them here is by staying here, staying by the tree.”

John Bytheway: 01:01:16 In verse 15, he beckoned unto them with a loud voice, “I’m staying here, but I’ll invite you with a loud voice, come unto me.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:26 That’s great, “By which I stood, by which I stood.” Gaye, these four different groups, do they feel all inclusive to you? Does it feel like, “I’m going to find myself in one of these four groups”?

Dr. Gaye Strathearn: 01:01:41 I think so. I would also say that this is typologically speaking, but if I’m honest with myself, then I see myself in each of them. It’s not one or the other for me. Different times in my life, sometimes different days, sometimes even different times of the day, in my experience, that I am more enticed by the things of the world, that if I’m not intentional can pull me away from the rod of iron, from the word of God. I love thinking about the word of God with John 1, “In the beginning was the word and the word was with God, and the word was God, and the word is Christ.” We have this tree here that can be a representation of Christ, but this rod of iron is also holding on to Christ in this mortal experience is representative.

  01:02:35 So it can be scriptures, it can be patriarchal blessings, the rod of iron, but I think, ultimately, it is holding onto Christ that enables us to come into the presence of God and participate in the full blessings of eternity. Even though that I know that that’s what I want and that’s what I hope for, there are still moments of being mortal that I experience elements of each of these four groups, except I hope I’m not somebody who gets there and partakes the fruit and then walks away, but honestly, there are times when I do that. I feel the spirit so strongly, but then the pull of the world comes at me again. That’s one of the reasons why I think that Lehi and Nephi don’t give up on Laman and Lemuel because there’s always this hope that they will make a better choice and come back.

Hank Smith: 01:03:37 Coming up in part two of this episode.

John Bytheway: 01:03:41 “Listen, back when I was drinking and partying, I had a good time”, he said, “I had a great time, I have to admit, I was in the great and spacious laughing at you guys.” He said, “I did 25 years of field research in the great and spacious building.”