Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello everyone. Welcome to a new episode of FollowHIM for a brand new year. We are studying the Book of Mormon. My name is Hank Smith, I am your host, and I’m here with my Book of Mormon loving co-host, John Bytheway. John, you have been looking forward to this, I know, for three years.

John Bytheway: 00:00:24 I really have, and I’ll take that adjective. Most of them I can’t live up to, but Book of Mormon loving, I’ll take that one.

Hank Smith: 00:00:30 Right. John, tell me, you’ve got a classroom of 100 students. They’re ready to study the Book of Mormon. How do you start?

John Bytheway: 00:00:36 One of the things I like to do, is kind of tease them a little bit and tell them we have a guest speaker and then I announce the name Lucy Mack Smith. Can you imagine if she were here, she might say, “Do you know what it cost my family to bring you this book?” And that’s a sobering moment, but it’s a wonderful moment to think, “What a treasure we have right in front of us and what a sacrifice came to bring it to us.” But that’s one of the ways I like to start.

Hank Smith: 00:01:00 Absolutely. I don’t know if we realize we are holding a real miracle in our hands. I usually start my classes, John, with this quote from President Nelson. Listen to all he promises here. He says, “When I think of the Book of Mormon, I think of the word power. The truths of the Book of Mormon have the power to heal, comfort, restore, succor, strengthen, console, and cheer our souls.” Is there anybody listening who doesn’t want that? Heal, comfort, restore, succor, strengthen, console, and cheer our souls.

  00:01:33 And then he makes three promises, John, he says, “I promise that as you prayerfully study the Book of Mormon every day, you will make better decisions every day. I promise that as you daily immerse yourself in the Book of Mormon, you can be immunized against the evils of the day.” And then one more promise, “I promise that as you ponder what you study, the windows of heaven will open, you will receive answers to your own questions and directions for your own life.” John, those three promises make me think, “I want to study the Book of Mormon. I want to study every day. I don’t want to miss a day.”

John Bytheway: 00:02:10 You know what that reminds me of? I had a class from Gerald Lund, who afterwards became Elder Gerald Lund in my master’s program and he talked about our usual approaches to scripture study. He says, we use guilt. Pack your bags, we’re going on a guilt trip. He said, we use shame, we use bribery. If you read, you get a Snickers in class. But he said that the approach the scriptures themselves use, he called it promises. The cool thing about the promises is they’re not someday promises, they’re right now promises, which President Nelson just said, better decisions every day. They’re right now promises. So, I’m glad you introduced that idea. The promises are right now.

Hank Smith: 00:02:48 John, I love it. I love the idea of Lucy Mack Smith reaching through the centuries telling us, “Read this book. Don’t take it for granted.” We love it so much. John, what a great connection. We are going to be joined by dozens of scholars this year, who are going to teach us about the Book of Mormon. And John, I know that that’s one of your favorite parts of this is being taught, listening. I wanted to start big. I wanted to start with two scholars who are not only incredible minds, but they’re just good people to their core. They’re both friends of ours, good friends of ours. Can you tell us, John, who is here to start our Book of Mormon year with us?

John Bytheway: 00:03:33 We’re very excited to have Casey Griffiths and Scott Woodward with us. And our listeners will recognize their faces, they co-host a podcast together, a Church History Matters podcast. They probably recognize it from Doctrine and Covenants, and that’s okay because the Book of Mormon is a part of Church History. It comes forth during this part and these guys are experts in that. If you’ve ever been to scripturecentral.org, you know there’s a part of that, Church History Matters. I’m so excited to have them teach us about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Hank Smith: 00:04:05 Welcome, Casey. Welcome, Scott.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:04:07 Thank you so much. It’s great to be back.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:04:10 Yeah, good to be here again.

Hank Smith: 00:04:12 In case our listeners don’t know, all four of us are pretty good friends. We might be laughing a lot. Between these two, the years, months, hours of research into the history of the church is difficult to grasp. I’m not saying that they’re old but they have done a lot of work. Scott, Casey, tell us what you love about the history of this church. Why do you study it so much?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:04:38 For me, I was probably about 17 years old. I started listening to those Truman G. Madsen tapes. I don’t know if you remember those. Joseph Smith, the prophet. Truman got me hooked and I haven’t stopped ever since, just continuing to dive deeper and deeper and deeper into Church History. And it’s been a joy, it’s been a testimony strengthening experience, testimony morphing experience. My testimony doesn’t look the same as it did when I was 17, but it’s rich and beautiful.

  00:05:04 I find a lot of strength in it. I find strength in both the human elements of Church History and in the divine. I see Church History as a beautiful mix of both. It gives me hope that weak humans like us have a shot. When you see people in Church History stumbling and making mistakes but seeing how the Lord works with them and is kind and good. It adds a layer of authenticity and reality to the human experience with God interacting with humans. What does that actually look like? Sometimes scripture is a little far away, distant in the past, the ancient past. They talk differently, they had different cultures and stuff, but Church History, I mean this is really recent. These people speak English, they’re in America. What does it look like for God to talk with people in Ohio? That’s a state in my country. To study Church History and the Doctrine and Covenants. It’s really rich, it’s really vibrant. I love it. Casey, what would you say?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:05:58 I was trying to think of when I got bitten by the bug. And it was probably on my mission when I read Church History in the Fullness of Times, which is still one of the best histories out there and it’s an institute manual, you got it on Gospel library. I found Church History to be really fun and delightful. It was stuff like Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball got chased by a bear and stuff like that that just made me chuckle. And I found, like Scott said, this deep humanity in it.

  00:06:24 The thing I love about Church History is, it’s a well that just never runs dry. There’s so much to study and so many different angles and I learned something new on a daily basis that just surprises and delights me. And the fact that they didn’t have to condense it down to a travel size set of gold plates. There’s journals and reminiscences and histories from all over the world and from women and from men and from different groups and countries and nations made it such a vibrant thing to study. And add that to the fact that it’s something that is directly relevant in every period of life. You can always find a story from Church History that illustrates a point that you want to make or that gives you courage or hope, or shows you how a person of faith can overcome adversity. That it’s really been a deep well that I go back to again and again to refresh myself and to, just frankly have courage to face the next day and to do the hard things that I have to do.

Hank Smith: 00:07:22 Let’s just briefly make sure that we give a major shout out to their podcast. It’s called Church History Matters. The reason I invited both of you on today is because I listened to that series. I think it was five episodes of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon. And I knew we wouldn’t be able to cover it all today, so I wanted to bring you on, give us some elements of that, and then if our listeners want even more, they can go and find that series. I think it was one of the first you did.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:07:49 If you want to do six episodes on Book of Mormon translation, it’s there. First vision, plural marriage, race and the priesthood, all the spicy stuff that sometimes trips people up, Scott and I have explored it. I want to credit Scott for being really fearless when it comes to approaching challenging issues in Church History. He’s just really good at that and I’ve learned a lot from him.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:08:10 Or reckless, I’m not sure which one it is.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:08:13 He’s like a bull in a china shop, that’s how I describe it.

Hank Smith: 00:08:16 Well, we are not afraid to lift our friends, Jared Halverson, Tyler and Taylor, Grace and David and so many others that I probably can’t think of right now. We’re all on the same team. We want to bless each other and bless the kingdom.

John Bytheway: 00:08:31 Anybody who blesses me, blesses my family, blesses my loved ones, lifts all of us. You find a flavor that you like, a different faith flavor if you find a flavor you like, that’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:08:43 We are all on the same team. A rising tide lifts all boats. Let’s jump in. The very first lesson from this Book of Mormon year is called Another Testament of Jesus Christ, the introductory pages of the Book of Mormon. Let me start here and then Casey, Scott, let’s see where you want to go.

  00:09:02 This is the opening paragraph. “Before you even get to 1 Nephi 1, you will notice that the Book of Mormon is no ordinary book. It’s introductory pages describe a backstory unlike any other, including visits from angels, an ancient record buried for centuries in a hillside and a young man translating the record by the power of God. The Book of Mormon is not just a history of ancient civilizations, it seeks to convince all that Jesus is the Christ and God himself directed how it was written, preserved and made available to us. This year, as you read the Book of Mormon, pray about it, apply its teachings, invite the Savior’s power into your life. And you may feel moved to say as the three witnesses did in their testimony, ‘It is marvelous in my eyes.'” What a great way to start. Casey, Scott, as you think of the coming forth of the Book of Mormon, what do you think our listeners need to know? What would you say, “Hey, this is crucial.”? Before you jump into the text, how are these introductory pages arranged in order to start us off on the right foot?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:10:10 I’d start out by saying this, the miracle of the Restoration is in these pages. To an early member of the church, they would not have introduced a person to the church by talking about the first vision. First vision actually comes into its own in the 20th century because it’s such a great story about how to search, approach God and get an answer. But to the early members of the church, the proof that God was among us and that God was moving again was the Book of Mormon. They would talk about how it came forward, how it was the work of an angel, and then they would hand you the book as absolute proof that God is bringing back and restoring all things in one.

  00:10:52 These opening pages are crucial to understanding, not just the Book of Mormon and its story, where it came from, but also what brought everybody together in the early Restoration. Because it’s fair to say, Joseph Smith kept the first vision to himself until a little bit later in his prophetic ministry. The Book of Mormon on the other hand, was proof positive that he could put into your hands to show that God had spoken to him and that he was more than just an interesting charismatic preacher, that he was a prophet of God. It’s evidence to the early saints that God is working among people again and that His voice is being heard and there are prophets on earth once more.

Hank Smith: 00:11:31 Beautiful.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:11:32 Amen. This was the missionary message of the first decade of the church, it was the Book of Mormon. You want to know that heavens are open? Here’s the Book of Mormon. You want to know if Joseph Smith’s a true prophet? Here’s the Book of Mormon. You want to know that God is speaking again in our day? Here’s a copy of the book. You can hold it in your hands. Casey and I have talked about this in the past that it may have come across to Joseph maybe a little immodest to talk about his first vision, since he was the only one there, it’s kind of taking his word for it. It’s maybe more of a personal experience to begin with for him, rather than something he maybe thought was going to be the foundational narrative of the church. In his mind, the thing that people could really grasp onto was the Book of Mormon. This is the evidence of the Restoration. This is the evidence that miracles have not ceased.

Hank Smith: 00:12:21 Awesome.

John Bytheway: 00:12:22 My favorite paragraph in Preach My Gospel First Edition says, “Throughout history, God has had a pattern of reaching out to people through a prophet. And people have had a pattern of rejecting the prophets and rejecting Him.” And then it says, “Consider our evidence that God has reached out again to a prophet and spoken to His children, and the prophet’s name is Joseph Smith and the evidence of this is found in a book, the Book of Mormon.” I loved the way they put that. God has reached out again and this time we’ve got evidence and here it is, the Book of Mormon. That’s one of my favorite paragraphs in there that summarize what you guys just said too.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:13:01 Love that.

Hank Smith: 00:13:02 Casey, Scott, as I open the Book of Mormon, the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ, I go to my next page, First English Edition published in Palmyra, New York, USA in 1830. Then I go to the next page, “The Book of Mormon, an account written by the hand of Mormon upon plates taken from the plates of Nephi.” That is called the title page of the Book of Mormon. Where did this come from? I mean, this is the first thing I run into. Do I need to know anything about this or should I just skip it and get to 1 Nephi?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:13:36 First thing you should know is that this is the actual text of the Book of Mormon. This isn’t supplementary material written by someone later on to explain it. I’ve got here a quote from the history of the church. Joseph Smith wrote this about the title page of the Book of Mormon. He said, “I wish to mention here that the title page of the Book of Mormon is a literal translation taken from the very last leaf on the left-hand side of the collection of Book of Plates, which the record which has been translated, the language of the whole running the same as all Hebrew writing in general. And that subtitle page is not by any means a modern composition, either of mine or of any other man who has lived or does live in this generation.”

  00:14:18 Sometimes when people say, “I started the Book of Mormon.”, they usually are saying, “I read 1 Nephi 1.” But the text of the Book of Mormon actually starts on the title page. This is written by Moroni and is intended to be the introduction to the Book of Mormon. So, don’t skip over this by any means. It’s not supplementary material, it’s not modern. It’s literally taken from the plates and is designed by Moroni to sort of give you the crucial information that’s in the Book of Mormon, why it matters and the scope that the Book of Mormon’s supposed to read. This is where the text begins, functionally, this title page right here.

John Bytheway: 00:14:55 This is so good. And I love the idea of, unto all nations. There are parts of my testimony where things that just make sense to me, and one of those that makes sense is, “Manifesting Himself unto all nations.” And I love that when Jesus leaves this group of the children of Lehi, he says, “I’m going to appear to other groups.” He doesn’t say in one place or many places. I believe it’s many places. Thank you for emphasizing that part, “Manifesting Himself unto all nations.” We even know that one day we will be getting other books from other places that He visited. And I tell my students, you’re going to have a lot of religion classes someday because we’re going to have other books we have to study. He tells them they’re going to go, so I love that you emphasize that, “Manifesting Himself unto all nations.” I heard that in the Philippines sometimes, “Well, why America?” Well, the Restoration took place in a place where religious freedom was guaranteed, at least is supposed to be, but now this book is a message for the world.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:15:59 Amen. And I mean, that’s so important for us. I’ve heard some bright secular thinkers criticize the Bible by saying, “Hey, this is a message to a tiny group of people in an obscure part of the world during the Iron Age of human history. How does this have relevance to me?” The Book of Mormon immediately raises the stakes by saying, “No, this message is for everybody everywhere for all time.” If you look at the Book of Mormon as a sequel to the Bible, it’s like The Empire Strikes Back, that broadens the story, it deepens the story, and then it sets up all these crazy possibilities about what’s going to happen down the road. And it’s using an American story to basically illustrate the fact that there isn’t a nation on earth that doesn’t have a Christ story that takes place in it, and there isn’t a people on earth that Christ isn’t concerned about. That Israel was held up as the example of how God deals with a nation, how He makes covenants, how He blesses and exalts them, but it’s a story that can take place among any nation, among any group of people.

  00:17:09 And it also lays flat out there who the main character is, which is Jesus Christ. So those three things that Scott mentioned, like I said, knowing what God has done in the past, what He’s promised to do for you in the future and who you need to connect with right now to know how you can be happy, how you can be fulfilled and how you can gain exaltation. Where the Book of Mormon’s at, it’s a pretty great introduction that sets the stakes and then opens the door to say, “We’re going to take this little story which you assumed was about one people and make it a story about all people.” That’s a really, really valuable contribution, not just to Latter-day Saints, but to Christianity in general, to say that this was never a local tribal faith, a local tribal God, this was the God of the whole earth starting with this group of people, but now expanding the story to every group of people.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:18:02 There’s a plot twist in the Book of Mormon about that, in 2 Nephi 30:2 and in 3 Nephi 30:2, I don’t know how it correlates so perfectly, but in both of those verses it says that anyone who receives Jesus Christ through baptism actually becomes part of the House of Israel. You become part of the story of those who are going to rule and reign with Jesus, the Messiah, with the king. It is about the House of Israel through and through, and at the same time, it’s about the whole world. How can those both be true at the same time? Well, because the whole world is being invited to come unto Christ and become part of His people, which is called the House of Israel. Super cool how the Book of Mormon works.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:18:45 It’s a royal family that anybody can join. And that’s a beautiful concept in and of itself.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:18:50 Yes, through baptism, be born again into Christ’s family, which is called Israel, and take upon yourself the name of Jesus as one of His people. It’s marvelous. It’s a simple but powerful message.

Hank Smith: 00:19:03 I love that. It’s not 1 Nephi 1. Let’s start with the title page, that’s where the text begins. I hadn’t thought of it that way, but I think that’s the way maybe it was intended.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:19:13 Yeah. And we get right there on the title page, we get the three audiences that this book is written to. We got the remnant of the House of Israel, those are the descendants of Lehi. We’ve got Jews and we’ve got Gentiles. So let’s talk about those for a second. The remnant of the House of Israel, the Book of Mormon is going to talk about this a lot. These are the descendants of Lehi. And you’ve got Jews/House of Israel. Those are interchangeable terms. These are the people that come from Jerusalem or these are God’s covenant people. And then you’ve got the Gentiles. Gentiles just means those of nations who are neither Jew nor remnant. In effect then this book is written to everybody, but we don’t want to conflate it too strong that way because it’s going to have different messages to different groups. There’s messages to the remnant, there’s messages to the Jews and to the Gentiles. Keep all of those in mind as you read. It makes this actually a much more meaningful read.

  00:20:09  Notice this, what Moroni says. He says, this book is, “to show unto the remnant of the House of Israel,” Lehi’s seed, “what great things the Lord has done for their fathers.” That’s purpose number one for the Book of Mormon. Number two, “And that they,” still talking about the remnant, “may know the covenants of the Lord that they are not cast off forever.” That’s second purpose of the Book of Mormon. And number three, “And also to the convincing of the Jew and the Gentile, that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God manifesting Himself unto all nations.” Those are three different but related purposes. And I think what often happens is we mush them all together into one purpose, which is to convince everyone that Jesus is the Christ, at least I’ve done that a lot in my own study.

  00:20:54 But let me try a little thought experiment here for us. I want you to imagine that the three purposes of the Book of Mormon are like a three-piece sound system. Just go with me on this, all right? There’s a right speaker, there’s a left speaker, and then there’s the soundbar in the middle. Can you all picture this? A three-piece sound system is meant to put out polyphonic sound. When you’re watching your favorite epic movie, there are subtle differences of sound that come from each speaker. Maybe there’s dialogue through the left speaker and when a plane flies off to the right, you hear it on the right speaker. And when an army attacks in the front, you can kind of feel it coming at you. When the three speakers are kept in balance, the listening experience can be immersive and incredible. The same is true for the three purposes of the Book of Mormon. If kept in balance with each other, the experience can be richer and more immersive than ever. But I fear that sometimes our three Book of Mormon speakers are not in balance and so we can’t fully appreciate the richness of the book. I’m talking from my personal experience here.

  00:21:52 So let’s say for example, the left speaker is this first message of hope to the modern remnant of Israel, okay, Lehi’s descendants, to show them how good the Lord has been to their ancestors. Now I’ve read the Book of Mormon multiple times without even turning that speaker on. I think this speaker could be turned up a little bit, maybe a lot.

  00:22:10 And let’s say that the right speaker is this second message of hope to the modern remnant of Israel to help them know the covenants of the Lord with the whole House of Israel so that they can recognize that they’re not cast off forever. Well, I confess, I’ve read the Book of Mormon multiple times without even knowing that was a speaker, that wasn’t just turned off from me, it was still in the original box awkwardly stacked over in the corner with me not even knowing what to do with it. For most of us, this one probably needs to be unpacked and then turned up quite considerably.

  00:22:41 And then let’s say that the middle soundbar speaker is that third purpose of convincing Jews and Gentiles that Jesus is the Christ, the eternal God. Well, I’ve read the Book of Mormon with this one cranked up way too loud most of my life. It might sound odd to say, but I mean of course this is a good speaker. But like any good speaker, when we blast it too loudly, it can actually distort the learning experience and drown out the other two speakers so we can’t even hear them at all. So maybe this one we need to actually turn down a little bit, at least enough to hear it in harmony with the other two speakers.

  00:23:14 And in fact, I’ll just say my experience that when we listen polyphonically, multiple sounds coming from multiple speakers here, I hope this analogy is working for you. If we can listen polyphonically with all three purposes working together, it actually enhances the sweetness of that middle soundbar. I would go so far as to say it’s virtually impossible to fully appreciate what it means that Jesus is the Christ outside of understanding God’s covenants with the House of Israel. You can’t do it. When you turn up those other two speakers, then that middle soundbar is more resonant and beautiful than ever.

Hank Smith: 00:23:52 Wow, that is fantastic. Here’s a book I’ve read over and over, and yet you’re showing me something I’ve never seen before. I think you’re right on here. John, I can tell you’re excited about this.

John Bytheway: 00:24:04 Yeah, I’ve always felt like when Nephi’s sharing the Isaiah chapters, he’s talking to his people and saying, “We’ve got a different area code now, but this is us. And the Jew and Gentiles already have this in another place in the Bible, but he’s telling, we’re House of Israel and we got to live up to the covenants and promises to us.” And that’s that one speaker that helps me to say, “Yeah, why did Nephi throw this in here?” Well, this is for us to remember that our area code has changed, but our covenants have not. And remember what Isaiah said. I like the polyphonic thing.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:24:39 Polyphonic reading of the Book of Mormon. Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:24:42 And maybe there’s times in the Book of Mormon where those other two speakers are supposed to be coming at me and yet I’m hearing nothing. Oh, I’m thinking, “Well, this isn’t very good.” Because it’s that first speaker is not as loud as it’s been in other chapters. “So let me just skip. Let me just skip ahead until I hear that first speaker again.” Where you’re saying, well, maybe it’s because those other two speakers aren’t on.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:25:05 Yeah, when they work together harmoniously, the Book of Mormon is never more beautiful. It’s going to take on a richness. If we can especially turn up the covenant consciousness of the writers of the Book of Mormon, they assume so much. They assume that we know the covenant backstory of the Old Testament. They just assume like we got it, because where they’re coming from like, “Who doesn’t know this story?” But if we don’t know, for instance, the covenant with Abraham and we don’t know the covenant with the nation of Israel at Mount Sinai that’s covered in the Book of Exodus and then repeated in Deuteronomy, we’re going to be a little bit lost here. They’ve assumed that you know that. And if you also don’t know about the covenant that God made with King David, then it’s going to be harder to understand this whole proposition that Jesus is the Christ.

  00:25:50 What does that mean? The Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed one. In what context does that make sense outside of the covenant God made with David about his descendant who would both gather together and then rule over Israel as this powerful descendant of King David, he will benevolently rule the world forever. The writers of the Book of Mormon assume that the Abrahamic covenant, they assume you know the national covenant with Israel and they assume the Davidic covenant, the promises that God made to King David. And if you don’t have those three, that’s the narrative backbone of the Hebrew Bible and it constitutes the essential backstory for key portions and prophecies in the Book of Mormon.

  00:26:30 For instance, 1 Nephi 11-14, Nephi’s vision, holy cow. And then Nephi’s recapitulation of that vision in 2 Nephi 25-30. And then Jacob 5. If you don’t know this, Jacob 5 is going to be harder to really sink your teeth into. And as John mentioned, the Isaiah chapters, 2 Nephi 12-24. Nephi is quoting those because he sees that Isaiah has seen the same vision he saw and after Isaiah lays it out, then Nephi says, “Now I want to say a few things concerning this. I want to prophesy.” And then he recapitulates his vision from 1 Nephi 11-14. Nephi saw it, he said, my father saw it, Jacob saw it. And now I’m reading Isaiah and I’m realizing he saw the vision about the fulfillment of God’s covenant promises with the House of Israel.

  00:27:16 That is so big for the Book of Mormon authors, and I have to confess that hasn’t always been big for me as a reader of the Book of Mormon. I haven’t always seen how relevant the covenants that God made with the ancient House of Israel is for me in my life today. So I think that’s why that speaker’s always been turned down, but in recent years, as I’ve cranked that up and put it in its right place, the Book of Mormon’s never been better. Honestly.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:27:39 Wow. And let me make a case for speaker three here, to use Scott’s analogy too. I think what Scott’s done is basically explained that, hey, if you know the gospel, there’s a way to go deeper here too. But if you’re a beginner also, those words that are put in all caps in the title page, “JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE ETERNAL GOD.” I’ve got the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon pulled up here, and it’s that way in that one too. Meaning this was very deliberate, that they wanted those words to be emphasized. And not only the Jesus is the Christ, which the Book of Mormon is to me the most effective way to introduce someone to that. I’m thinking of my own experience when I was a kid in high school or a freshman in college, that the Book of Mormon didn’t just introduce me to the church, it was my gateway to understanding Jesus Christ and coming to know who and what he is.

  00:28:35 And then it adds in this wonderful phrase where it says, “manifesting himself unto all nations.” That in the era that we live, another important function that the Book of Mormon plays is to globalize the story of Jesus Christ. It’s a story about Jesus working among all nations. A couple of years ago we were in dialogue with some people from another church and one of them said, “Hey, I don’t like the Book of Mormon because it’s too America-centric. It talks about American exceptionalism, that America’s special.” I felt inspired in the moment to say, “The message of the Book of Mormon isn’t that America special. It’s that there are holy places all over the world and there’s not a people on earth or a place on earth that hasn’t felt the power of Jesus Christ.” That Jesus isn’t just the God of Israel, which those covenants God is mentioning talk about, but that Jesus is the God of the whole earth and that everybody, regardless of where they’re coming from, should be able to connect with this message and find joy in salvation.

Hank Smith: 00:29:39 Scott, Casey, I’m thinking of times I’ve been in my car, plugged in the music and the speaker balance is off and thinking, “Oh, there’s something wrong with this music.” When no, there was something wrong with the speakers, they’re not in balance. As I’m reading, perhaps Jacob 5 and I’m thinking, “Hey, why is this not speaking to me?” Return to these three speakers and say, “What am I supposed to be listening for again?” And then maybe coming back to that chapter and cranking up those speakers, really focusing in, and all of a sudden it starts to speak to me.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:30:13 When you read the Book of Mormon the way the authors of the Book of Mormon crafted it and intended it to be read, it’s amazing. Is it that simple? Let’s keep our ears and heart attuned to the themes that the authors of the Book of Mormon intended for us to pick up on, which Moroni is announcing right here on the title page for us. Keep all three in mind and if you’re starting to say, “This isn’t really a lot about Jesus, it doesn’t feel like this is a lot about Jesus.” Maybe back up and say, “Well, which one of these speakers is it about?”

  00:30:42 At different times, different speakers are going to be louder than others. That’s the cool thing about surround sound. The right is a little softer than the left at some times, that kind of gives you that immersive experience. And the analogy can only go so far, but they’re not all three always playing all at the same time at the same volume. Yeah, that’s helpful as a reader to think about that and to consider which of those three or which of the two in balance with each other or are all three active here. What am I supposed to be getting out of this? Jacob thought he was doing something. Nephi thought he was conveying something really important here. Mormon and Moroni thought that they were abridging something really powerful for us. And if we’re not feeling that power, then yeah, maybe just a little readjustment of the speakers will go a long way.

Hank Smith: 00:31:23 Casey, Scott, I don’t know if I’ve ever had this kind of testimony of the title page before and how crucial it can be. Because I’m excited, I start into 1 Nephi, I’m following the story. And then I get to 2 Nephi, perhaps I’m losing the energy that I had and maybe it’s I didn’t get the lift off that the title page can give me to help me soar through the book, make it all the way to the end.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:31:48 The momentum.

Hank Smith: 00:31:49 Yeah, the momentum.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:31:51 Now there’s another word I sometimes throw out with my students just for fun. The philosopher Aristotle used the word telos, to refer to a thing’s purpose, its aim, its end, its ultimate functional reason for existing. Throw up a picture of a toaster and just ask my students like, “What’s the telos of a toaster?”

Hank Smith: 00:32:09 What’s its purpose?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:32:11 What’s it made to do? And it’s actually made to do one thing, one thing, toast your bread, maybe throw up a picture of a Swiss Army Knife and say, “All right, what’s the telos of the Swiss Army Knife?” Maybe throw up a picture of an iPhone and say, “What’s it’s telos?” Some things are made to do many things. And then throw a picture of the Book of Mormon and say, “Okay, what’s its telos? What was it intended to do? What’s its function? Is it more like a toaster where it’s made to do one thing or more like a Swiss Army Knife where it can do several things or more like an iPhone, where it can do a lot of things?”

  00:32:43 There were some minds behind this book, just like there were minds behind the creation of the toaster and the creation of the Swiss Army Knife, and Steve Jobs behind the iPhone. There were minds behind it. Now what do they have to say about the telos of the Book of Mormon? That’s how I then go into the title page of the Book of Mormon and then we say, “These are the takeaways. The minds in the Book of Mormon want at least these three things to happen as we read this book.” The word telos is helpful.

John Bytheway: 00:33:09 The last line, last sentence in the title page says, “that ye may be found spotless,” And one time I guess I got bored and started looking for every instance of spotless and unspotted and without spot in the scriptures. President Packer said something like, “Repentance is like soap.” And the scriptures speak of being cleansed through Christ’s blood, which we usually think of as blood stains, but Christ’s blood cleans.

  00:33:38 You’ve probably all heard the idea that, “You tell them what you’re going to tell them, and then you tell them, and then you tell them what you’ve told them.” If the title page is tell them what you’re going to tell them, then the last page would be, tell them what you’ve told him. I see in the title page, I see covenants, I see Christ and I see spotless. And I look at Moroni 10, the last verses and I see that, “The covenants of the eternal Father, which he hath made unto thee O House of Israel will be fulfilled. Yea come unto Christ.” There’s covenants, there’s Christ. And Verse 33, “that you become holy without spot.” I see covenants, I see Christ and I see you can become spotless through the Atonement. So, tell them what you’re going to tell them, tell them what you’ve told them, and then the last page.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:34:23 There’s one more thing we haven’t mentioned on the title page here, and that is this part, Moroni’s insecurity. He says, “Now if there are faults, they are the mistakes of men; wherefore condemn not the things of God,” Moroni is very self-conscious of the possibility of errors in his record. He knows his own inadequacies, he knows the inadequacies of the other writers. I love what he’s saying here. If I could restate I would say, prophetic fallibility does not negate the work of God. For me, it only makes it all the more marvelous because of what it shows us about what God can do through flawed mortals.

  00:35:01 Exhibition A here is the Book of Mormon. Look at what God can do through flawed mortals. And Moroni is very conscious of that. Ether 12, he’s having a bit of a venting session with the Lord and he’s saying, “Lord, the Gentiles are going to mock these things because of our weakness in writing.” He’s definitely the most self-conscious of the prophets I feel like. But that’s the miracle. Think of it. This incredible book, tool to do so many eternally vital things, was produced by a series of ancient authors who weren’t even college graduates, to say nothing of the very rudimental literacy of its 23-year-old modern translator. If there are faults, they’re the mistakes of men, but please don’t let that overshadow the fact that this comes from God. Both of those are true at the same time.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:35:49 That’s so wonderfully human of Moroni too, to be so insecure about his writing. Which boy, I can relate to, but sometimes I want to just give him a pat on the back and say, “Hey, you’re actually a brilliant writer.”

Hank Smith: 00:36:02 Pretty good.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:36:03 I think Scott’s correct in saying that, as we recognize these grand and glorious promises, Moroni also just throws in this sweet little humble reminder of, hey, the messengers that bring this to you are imperfect. Are you going to find flaws here? Yeah. Is the message still powerful, potent and life-changing? It is also an imperfect messenger can deliver a message that leads to perfection, that leads to Christ. His personality shines through. When you compare Moroni 10 with this, it’s clear that it’s the same author that has his own little quirks and his own insecurities, and a lot of that comes through in his voice as it’s depicted in the text.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:36:41 His concern is justified as I’ve seen how people respond to the Book of Mormon, not everyone is super kind. For instance, a few years ago, back in 2016, there was an overzealous Elders Quorum president, I think is how the story goes, who said, “Hey, you know what we should do? Everyone in our ward should go onto Amazon and go onto the Book of Mormon and leave a five star review, pump up the Book of Mormon.” Write why you like it. But then the trolls got involved. Then the counterpoints, they’re like 41% five stars and like 55% one stars at the moment that I screenshotted. 751 people, when I screenshotted this had left reviews. And I just feel like Moroni is rolling in his grave.

  00:37:22 Here’s a few examples of haters. All right. “And it came to pass, that it came to pass, while it came to pass. It passed, it came. It came to pass. It passed to come. Then while it was coming to pass, it passed and it came and it passed.” “It comes and passes a lot,” said one reviewer. Yeah, that was actually kind of true. It does say it came to pass a lot. I just feel Moroni as being like, “Ah guys, go easy on us. If there’s faults, they are the mistakes of men. Okay, maybe we could have cut out a few, but it came to pass. Don’t let that overshadow that, stop making fun of this book.” And that’s what the Lord says too, Moroni writes. He says, “Fool’s mock, but they shall mourn.” And if they don’t have charity toward your writing, it’s not going to be good with them. His exact words are, “For behold the same that judgeth rashly shall be judged rashly again.” Rash judgment of the Book of Mormon will backfire. Be kind, look through the faults of the writers and try to get to the nuggets that they’re actually trying to give us, and you’re going to have a great experience.

Hank Smith: 00:38:22 Can I share from Elder Holland? This is April, 2013. John, you’ve quoted this a lot to me, “Except in the case of his only perfect begotten Son, imperfect people are all God has ever had to work with. That must be terribly frustrating to Him, but He deals with it, so should we.” And when you see imperfection, remember that the limitation is not in the divinity of the work, as one gifted writer has suggested, ‘When the infinite fullness is poured forth, it is not the oil’s fault if there is some loss because finite vessels can’t quite contain it all.'” Those finite vessels include you and me, right? Not just Moroni, not just Mormon, not just Nephi. Those finite vessels include us too. And Elder Holland finishes, “So be patient and kind and forgiving.” I love that you’ve pointed out in the title page of Moroni saying, Please go easy on us.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:39:18 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:39:19 I’m trying to imagine what it’s like to be Moroni, son of Mormon, and your father has been working on this project forever. And it’s his book, and it’s the Book of Mormon. And then all of a sudden he’s killed in battle at age about 73. And you are like, “I have no ore I have no… Whether I go, I don’t, I have no kin, I have no friends.” The way Mormon 8 starts where, “Am I supposed to finish this? Do I have to finish this?” And he has to finish his father’s work, and I’ve always felt that’s part of his insecurity that it sounds like is coming through is, “This wasn’t my plan, this was my dad’s project and his work, and now I have to finish it. And I hope I’m doing okay, dad.” I mean, sometimes I looked at it that way that this wasn’t the way I think Mormon expected it to finish. I think he thought his dad was going to be done with it.

Hank Smith: 00:40:16 I think in the spirit world, the three of them, Joseph, Mormon and Moroni trade the plates on each other’s mantle like, “Hey, it’s my turn.” As I keep going in the Book of Mormon, I run into the Testimony of the Three Witnesses, and just a paragraph later, the Testimony of the Eight Witnesses. And then there’s 11 names here, that if I’m a first time reader, “Who are these people? What’s happening here?” Casey, can I ask you? What do I need to know as I head into these two testimonies of these 11 men?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:40:48 There’s three witnesses that saw the angel and the plates and heard the voice of God. They have kind of a supernatural experience. They’re all people that are deeply involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon. Oliver Cowdery is the primary scribe for almost the entire text. David Whitmer is associated with Oliver Cowdery, brings them to his family’s farm, and that’s the place where Joseph and Oliver are residing when they complete the translation of the Book of Mormon. And then Martin Harris is well-known too. He’s one of the earliest scribes. Emma Smith’s probably the first scribe from what we can tell. Martin’s the scribe for the lost portion of the manuscript, which is a whole other episode in and of itself.

  00:41:32 But those three have a supernatural experience, and I’ll come back in a second and go into more details, I’m just giving you an overview here. Then you’ve got the eight witnesses. The eight witnesses don’t have a supernatural experience. Their experience is very much physical. They see the plates, they handle the plates. We even have a piece of paper where one of the eight witnesses, we believe it’s John Whitmer, transcribed characters from the plates. One of the things that the witnesses are designed to do, is to operate together. B.H. Roberts pointed out that what happens to the three witnesses is very much supernatural. What happens to the eight witnesses is very much natural. Critics of the Book of Mormon, for instance, could say, “Hey, these three guys were hallucinating. They had a shared hallucination,” however that works, “that’s how you account for what they saw.” Well, that doesn’t account for the eight witnesses who saw a set of plates. On the other hand people could say, “Well, Joseph Smith just made a fake set of plates.” That doesn’t account for the three witnesses who saw something supernatural.

  00:42:30 It’s very much by design that the two sets of witnesses are designed to work together. And by the way, there’s a 12th witness, which you got to add on the next page, which is Joseph Smith. You add three plus eight plus one, that’s 12. That’s a nice number when it comes to witnessing things. And then if you want to, you can even add in Mary Whitmer who also saw the plates and the angel, that gives you a baker’s dozen, 13 people. To the early saints, to us today, this is really important stuff. Because a common criticism of the Book of Mormon is, “Where are the plates? Why don’t you just show us the plates?” Even if we have the plates, I don’t know if it would make that big a difference because the message cuts to the quick, you have to make a decision about it. But the fact that we have so many witnesses, and if I was going into court and I had 13 witnesses at my back, I could pretty much win any case.

  00:43:24 We might not have the plates, but the next best thing is to have 13 people, who, by the way, never ever denied their testimony in spite of what must have been massive pressure to do so. Like I said, starts us down the path. And if you’re a critic of the Book of Mormon, this would keep me up at night, “Why were all of these people so willing to sacrifice and give up so much if this isn’t true?” But they do, and what they go through is pretty incredible as well.

  00:43:52 Doctrine and Covenants 17 actually gives a list of what the three witnesses are going to see. And Section 17 says they’ll have a view of the plates which they all describe in detail. David Whitmer, who I’m going to use as my example here, said, “We not only saw the plates of the Book of Mormon, but also the brass plates, the plates of the book of Ether, the plates containing the record of the wickedness and secret combinations of the people, down to the time that they’re being engraved and many other plates.” He says, “The fact is, it was just as though Oliver and I were sitting here on a log. We were overshadowed by a light. It was not the light of the sun, not like that of a fire, but more glorious and beautiful. It extended a way around us. I cannot tell how far, but in the midst of this light, about as far off as he sits,” And in this interview he pointed to his nephew, John Whitmer and said, “as it appeared and a table in many records with plates on it.”

  00:44:44 These guys not only see the gold plates that are associated with the Book of Mormon, but they see all these other numerous records. Then Section 17 says, they’re also going to see the breastplate, because there’s a breastplate associated with this. The Sword of Laban, which they also testify that they saw. The Urim and Thummim, or the Nephite Interpreters that are used to translate the Book of Mormon. And then Section 17 mentions that they will see the miraculous directors, which we assume is a reference to the Liahona, the actual Liahona from the Book of Mormon. There’s all these relics that belong to the Nephites that are passed down, and the three witnesses see all of those things.

  00:45:23 And like I said, the three witnesses all have sordid histories with the church. All three of them are excommunicated or leave the church. We’re not certain if Martin Harris left the church, but none of them ever deny their witness.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:45:39 Martin says, “I didn’t leave the church, the church left me.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:45:42 Yeah, right. Martin Harris is the one that we don’t have any record of an excommunication, so we don’t think he was excommunicated from the church. But he definitely was not closely affiliated with the church for a period of decades and never denies his testimony. On the other hand, David and Oliver are both excommunicated from the church. You can go to the Joseph Smith Papers site and actually look up the minutes from their excommunication hearing. It’s painful for them. It’s very painful, and yet they never deny their testimony of the Book of Mormon either, they stay true to it. In fact, they give numerous speeches when they’re outside the church, write letters and continue to bear testimony of the Book of Mormon.

  00:46:25 For instance, the earliest record, and Scott and I did an episode on this a couple of weeks ago, November, 1829, Oliver Cowdery writes a letter where he tells somebody about the experience. If you’re looking at timelines here, the Book of Mormon is received by Joseph Smith in 1827, translated primarily from April to June of 1829. And it’s sometime in the summer of 1829 that they have this experience where they see the angel and behold the relics as well. This letter is from November 1829. Here a historian, that’s really close to the time of the event. This is as accurate as we would expect it to be. Oliver writes to someone saying, “This record gives an account of the first inhabitants of this continent. It is engraved on plates which have the appearance of gold, and they are a very curious workmanship. It was a clear, open, beautiful day, far from any inhabitants, in a remote field at the time we saw the record of which has been spoken, brought and laid before us by an angel, arraigned in glorious light, ascend out of the midst of heaven.”

  00:47:34 Boom, within a couple months, Oliver is explaining the experience, and not in vague terms like, “I had a sort of fuzzy vision.” “It’s a beautiful, clear, open day, and we saw this angel descend from heaven.” There’s a lot to process there. This guy’s seeing an angel. And you can go to Martin Harris’s grave, it’s in Clarkston, Utah. I drove my family up there. I made my kids stand on the grave and I said to them, “You are standing on the grave of someone who saw an angel.” And I remember my son’s words were, “Are we going to go to Hardee’s after this because I’m really…” And I was like, “Honestly, do you realize what a big deal this is?”

Hank Smith: 00:48:16 Do you know who’s in front of you talking about this and who’s under there?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:48:20 Yeah, I should have fed him before I took him there, in retrospect. But still the fact that where we’re living is two hours away from the grave of someone who certifiably saw an angel is to me an amazing, amazing deal. Now, speaking of Martin Harris, I want to quickly go through the evidence. These three witnesses were interviewed numerous times. They all lived for decades after. Oliver Cowdery is the first to die, he passes away in 1850. We probably have the least from him. But Martin Harris, and especially David Whitmer, live on for decades afterwards and are interviewed numerous times.

  00:48:56 Just a sampling, a little man named William Pilkington, he was hired to take care of Martin Harris. And Pilkington says, “I heard Martin bear testimony scores of times.” This is after Martin has rejoined the church and traveled to Utah, now he’s living in Clarkston. Pilkington, this is William Pilkington, said that the day before he died, Martin Harris shared his testimony. Even asking William, who’s 14 years old at this time, to hold up Martin’s right hand while he spoke. So Martin is so weak he can’t hold up his own right hand, he asked this 14-year-old who’s this paid helper to raise his hand for him.

  00:49:33 According to William, this is what Martin said, “Just as sure as you see the sun shining, just as sure I am that I stood in the presence of an angel of God with Joseph Smith. I saw him hold the gold plates in his hands. I also saw the Urim and Thummim, the breastplate, the Sword of Laban. I saw the angel descend from heaven. The heavens were then opened and I heard the voice of God declare that everything the angel had told us was true and that the Book of Mormon was translated correct. I was commanded by God’s voice to testify to the whole world what I had seen and heard.” Day before he dies, July 8th, 1875, according to William Pilkington, Martin Harris bears his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Never denies it, as far as we know.

  00:50:16 David Whitmer is probably the most challenging, I guess. He’s the one of the three that never rejoins the church. Oliver Cowdery is excommunicated in 1838, but he rejoins in 1848 and dies in the faith in 1850. Martin Harris never excommunicated, re-affiliates with the church, dies in 1875. David Whitmer never rejoins the church. David Whitmer is more than willing to be interviewed when it comes to this. I’ve got a book on my shelf called, David Whitmer Interviews that Lyndon Cook put together, it’s about this thick, and it’s just his interviews on the Book of Mormon. And he is crystal clear.

  00:50:50 But to give you an example, David, in 1887, the year before he dies, makes this statement directly refuting two encyclopedias. They were the American Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica. Remember when there used to be TV ads for those? Both had published articles saying that the witnesses had denied their testimony. This is what David Whitmer writes. He says, “It is recorded in the American Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Britannica that I, David Whitmer, have denied my testimony as one of the three witnesses to the divinity of the Book of Mormon, and that the other two witnesses, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris denied their testimony to that book. I will say once more to all mankind that I have never at any time denied that testimony or any part thereof. I also testified to the world that neither Oliver Cowdery or Martin Harris at any time denied their testimony. They both died reaffirming the truth of the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon. I was present at the deathbed of Oliver Cowdery and his last words were, Brother David, be true to your testimony of the Book of Mormon.”

  00:52:00 The way you connect the witnesses, is Martin Harris is kind of like the weird uncle of the Restoration. He’s this figure that’s not connected, but David and Oliver are deeply connected, they’re brothers-in-law. Oliver marries David’s sister, Elizabeth. After Oliver rejoins the church in 1848, instead of going west, he goes to Richmond, Missouri to try and get his in-laws to rejoin the church. They don’t, and Oliver passes away while he’s there. But they’re there at the deathbed. And that’s what every one of the Whitmer’s say that Oliver did, on his deathbed Oliver bore a final testimony of the Book of Mormon, said that it’s true.

  00:52:35 We don’t know where Oliver’s buried, but I’ve been to David Whitmer’s grave in Richmond, Missouri, and his headstone, actually, the guy’s headstone has the words, “The record of Jews and the record of the Nephites are one. Truth is eternal.” chiseled into the headstone. I would suggest that if you’re having something chiseled into your headstone, you’re pretty serious about it. He wanted this witness to be there. And this is a guy who isn’t part of the church at this point, who has not a lot of good things to say about Joseph Smith because he’s still angry 40 years later over his excommunication, but refuses to deny that he saw an angel, saw the relics, and that the Book of Mormon is true. How much more powerful than that can you get? Incredible.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:53:20 It used to bother me that the three witnesses got excommunicated or were out of the church, I would cock my head and be like, “How on earth could those three be out of the church if what they said was actually true?” And that used to bother me. But the deeper I dug into that and researched their lives, like you’re saying so well, Casey, they were adamant to the core that their experience was legit. They lost faith that Joseph Smith was still a prophet of God and that the church that he organized was the only way to come unto Christ, but they never, for one second questioned the authenticity and validity of their experience.

  00:54:02 I found a great quote that brings this home from President Henry B. Eyring. This is back in 2003. This is how he framed it, which I thought was perfect. He said, “The three witnesses never denied their testimony of the Book of Mormon. They could not, because they knew it was true. They made sacrifices and faced difficulties beyond what most people ever know. Oliver Cowdery gave the same testimony about the divine origin of the Book of Mormon as he laid dying,” Casey just mentioned that. And then he says, “but in the times of trial, they wavered in their faith that Joseph was still God’s prophet, and that the only way to come unto the Savior was through his restored church.” And then he drops this line, “That they continue to affirm what they saw and heard in that marvelous experience during long periods of estrangement from the church and from Joseph makes their testimony more powerful.” Thought about that a lot, and I wholeheartedly agree with that. There was no possible conceivable ulterior motive that could keep these men continuing to testify the authenticity of that experience and yet speak, especially David Whitmer, so outright against Joseph Smith.

  00:55:11 I have a picture of a handwritten note from David Whitmer in response to a Mr. Robert Nelson back in July of 1887. Robert Nelson had asked about his experience, “Is it really true?” David Whitmer says this, he says, “Dear sir, I did see the angel as it is recorded in my testimony, the Book of Mormon. The book is true,” and he underlines ‘is true.’ And then he says, “but the gathering to Jackson County, Missouri, I think was a little too hasty.” And he starts to complain about Joseph Smith. It’s just right in the same… He had a big problem with Joseph’s polygamy, he had a big problem with Joseph even organizing a church, he thought that was a little arrogant. He has all these funny, quirky little things against Joseph Smith. But Book of Mormon, absolutely true, no question, not for a second.

  00:56:03 God chose His witnesses wisely on that score, knowing that they would do what they did is perfect because it does take away all of the ulterior motives that one might have. If they were angry at Joseph Smith, there are no three men better positioned to hurt him than these three men. If their testimony is false. They are co-conspirators with Joseph, and when Joseph allows them to get out of the church, if this was false, game over for Joseph Smith because these guys can really hit them where it hurts.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:56:33 They can expose that, yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:56:34 Pull the carpet right out from underneath the whole narrative.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:56:38 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:56:38 But if an angel of God commanded you to bear witness of this and you heard the voice of God bear witness and say that you’d be accountable before the judgment seat of Christ for how well you actually bear witness of this book, not about Joseph Smith, not about the church, but about this book, if that was an authentic experience, then their behavior makes total sense. It’s pretty remarkable.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:56:59 Yeah. And there’s a tendency on our part sometimes to criticize these guys like, “Why did they leave the church?” I’m not going to deal with that. But as witnesses of the Book of Mormon, they are stellar. They never falter, they never have a weak moment. We’re still finding stuff that shows this. There’s a manuscript written by this early apostle named William McClellan that was only published a couple of years ago. They did work it into Saints, but it was during the Missouri persecutions and McClellan is literally hiding out in the woods for fear of his life. And according to McClellan, he comes across Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer who are hiding in the woods as well, and he breaks down and says, “Guys, this is tough. I don’t know if I can do this unless it’s true.” And William McClellan said that right then and there in the woods, David and Oliver both assured him, “Hey, it is true. We saw an angel and we saw the plates.”

  00:57:53 Again, under those circumstances where you’re being burned out of house and home, it would be so easy for them to just stand up and say, “It was all a joke.” And yet they’re there assuring this poor struggling brother in his faith that, “No, it’s real. It’s real. You’re not giving up your home and your safety for nothing. You’re doing it for something that’s very real and that comes from God.” I honor these men for their integrity, even if they did have maybe some personal feelings along the way. They weren’t perfect.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 00:58:25 We could go back to the title page of the Book of Mormon. If there are faults in these three witnesses, they are the faults of men, but don’t let that overshadow the power and consistency of their testimony of the Book of Mormon.

John Bytheway: 00:58:38 You guys will remember this, but I remember in general conference when Elder Dallin H. Oaks, at the time, he was talking about Martin Harris and there was this mic drop moment when he said his middle name was Dallin Harris Oaks, and he talked about the connection. He said, we need to let Martin come out from the shadow of that event in Church History. And I thought, “Yeah, he was baptized after the 116 pages were lost or stolen. Do we believe in baptism for the remission of sins?”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:59:09 Yeah. The H in Dallin H. Oaks is for Harris, because he’s a descendant of Martin Harris’s brother, Emer Harris. These three witnesses, not only is the role they play in the coming forth of the Book of Mormon crucial, but these are the three who are chosen to call the first 12 Apostles to serve. Until 1838, these are Joseph’s right-hand men. Then all that stuff happens that causes them to be excommunicated or leave the church. But like you said, we need to honor them for what they did. We need the glory and their goodness and not dwell so much on their faults. And when it comes to the Book of Mormon, boy, they passed the test with flying colors.

John Bytheway: 00:59:48 Another thing it makes me think of is, you pick up a book now nearly 200 years later and you see these names, but at the time they had to live in these communities. They were accessible. Like you said, people went and interviewed them over and over and over. And to put your name out right now in contemporary time, that’s a different thing and sometimes 200 years later we forget that.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 01:00:11 Amazing, amazing men and we need to give them credit for what they did.

Hank Smith: 01:00:15 Yeah. Let me read from their testimony before we move on. We can’t read the whole thing here, but let me just give you some highlights. “We have seen the plates which contain this record. We know of a surety that this work is true. An angel of God came down from heaven and he brought and laid before our eyes, we beheld and saw the plates. We bear record that these things are true. We bear testimony of these things. Honor be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost.” That is a powerful message that speaks through the centuries.

John Bytheway: 01:00:57 Please join us for part two of this podcast.