John Bytheway: 00:00:01 Welcome to part two of Isaiah 58-66 with Dr. Ross Baron.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 Now, guys, we have gone a good while. We’ve done one whole chapter. That’s how we like it here on followHIM. We like to go verse by verse. But we can’t do that for the entire block. Ross, what do you want to do next?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:00:21 I’d love to focus maybe on the Savior, if we could, and talk about a couple of verses in Isaiah 59 and then jump to the Savior’s mission in Isaiah 61. Is that okay?

Hank Smith: 00:00:33 That sounds great.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:00:34 In Isaiah 59, we have another question guiding the chapter. The idea is that I think the people are basically saying, “Why don’t you hear us?” Similar to Isaiah 58. The Lord tells you about who he is in verse 1. “The Lord’s hand is not shortened that it cannot save.” Here’s the parallelism. “Neither his ear heavy that it cannot hear.” You’ve got his hand not shortened. His ear isn’t heavy. The point is he can save, and he can hear. But the problem is there’s been rampant iniquity.

Hank Smith: 00:01:09 Your iniquities have separated you.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:01:12 Exactly. 2-8… Really, I mean, it’s just horrific. Somebody asked me, “When Lehi is teaching, and they have to leave…” He says, “Were the people that bad?” Yes. Read Jeremiah. They are bad. This is a hundred-plus years before Lehi leaves. But, I mean, you talk about there’s murder going on, verse 3. Your hands are defiled. You’re liars. There’s no justice. Vanity is going on. Then, we get this great stuff about… They’re trying to cover themselves, fake counterfeit atonements with other gods. Their feet, verse 7, run to evil. They haste to shed innocent blood. The way of peace, they don’t know.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:01:55 I love this verse in verse 14, “Judgment is turned away backward.” What an interesting way to say justice standeth afar off. It’s like you’ve got this personification of justice. By the way, justice is always masculinized, and mercy is always feminized. I’ll use the personal pronoun he. Justice is… He is standing outside. He’s going away backwards because they’ve just rejected justice. Justice is a huge deal for Isaiah. It’s another fun way to read Isaiah 1-66 is to look at how serious the Lord is about justice and how he ties that. The word for justice, mishpat, is very similar to… so the word “melchizedek,” “zedek” is righteousness. Righteousness and justice are paired always. God loves justice. He pairs that with righteousness. This is the situation.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:02:55 Then, verse 16: “And he saw that there was no man; wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore, his arm brought salvation onto Him; and His righteousness, it sustained him.” The Savior intervenes. The Savior’s got to make the intervention.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:03:13 Then, sometimes we read a scripture that’s super famous in Ephesians 6 about the armor of God. We think, “Wow, Paul thought of that.” I’m not saying Paul didn’t do amazing with it. But here we have in Isaiah, “The Savior put on righteousness as a breastplate and a helmet of salvation upon His head. He put on his garments of vengeance for clothing; was clad with zeal as a cloak.”

Hank Smith: 00:03:37 Wow! That’s good stuff.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:03:38 I love this idea. The students reading the Old Testament will say, “God’s a jealous God.” I go, “Don’t equate human jealousy with God-like jealousy.” His jealousy is a zeal for your salvation. His jealousy is… He will do everything and anything for your salvation. It’s not jealousy like, “Oh, I’m jealous because so and so…” the drama of a high school romance gone awry. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about a zeal for our salvation.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:12 I always like to say God is in the people business. God is in the people business. He has a zeal for our salvation. That is what He’s about. I love that He puts on breastplate of righteousness, the helmet of salvation. He clothes himself with a cloak, and He has zeal for our salvation. Unbelievable! Then, He’s going to do everything possible, and including some of that is going to be to scatter.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:38 Some of that is to create some recompense. Verse 18: “According to their deeds, accordingly He will repay, fury to His adversaries, recompense to His enemies; to the islands, He will repay recompense.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:55 I love the way how Isaiah will couple the destruction. You quoted 2 Nephi 26:24, which is one of my favorites. “He doesn’t do anything, Save it be for the benefit of the children of men,” including the scattering, including that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:09 In verse 20: “And the redeemer shall come to Zion and unto them that turned from transgression and Jacob save the Lord.” You’ve got the nature of the Savior who’s going to intercede. He’s got the character. He’s got the attributes. He’s got the perfections to do it. Symbolically, it’s been used as the armor of God. The Savior is the absolute epitome of that. He can reverse this situation, where even justice is standing afar off and walking away backwards.

Hank Smith: 00:05:38 Wow!

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:39 It can be redeemed.

Hank Smith: 00:05:39 What a dramatic chapter. It sets up this terrible situation, verse after verse after verse of how bad it is. Arming himself… He’s ready to come in and turn the whole thing around. “Then to any who want to repent…” Verse 20, “Any who will turn from transgression in Jacob.” That’s an awesome chapter that I don’t think I have ever seen that way before, Ross. That’s really fun.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:06:02 Yeah, I love to frame it that way. Here’s the horrible situation. What are we going to do? What are we going to do? Even justice walks away backward. Just standing outside, man. But the Savior will intercede. There’s going to be consequences. Choices have to matter. But those choices… Again, whatever He has to do to them is ultimately for their benefit. If they’ll turn from transgression, He can then redeem them. He is our kinsman redeemer. That is the covenant relationship we have with Him. Isaiah totally tapped into that idea. He is our kinsman redeemer. He has to redeem us. He’s been given the double portion. The whole point of the double portion is to use it to redeem the family, to bring us back to the family of God. That’s what’s going on. Anyway, that’s how I see Isaiah 59. That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 00:06:50 Hey, can I throw something in here? When you said, Ross, that judgment is characterized with the male pronoun. I thought of Alma talking to a son, Corianton, Alma 42:24. Alma says to Corianton, “For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own. Thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.” I’ve always thought, “Well, look! Justice is a male. Mercy is a female there and, I guess, consistent in the Book of Mormon. There’s justice being called male, and mercy meeting called a female, Alma 42:24. Just thought it was cool.

Hank Smith: 00:07:31 I always tell my students Joseph Smith’s the world’s greatest guesser. Man, did he get a lot right?

John Bytheway: 00:07:37 Just knew his Hebrew so well at that time.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:39 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:07:39 He just got that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:40 In 1829, he knew his Hebrew well.

John Bytheway: 00:07:43 That’s right.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:44 That’s the book you got to write: Joseph Smith’s Greatest Hits.

Hank Smith: 00:07:47 Yeah. Over and over and over again.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:50 Over and over and over again.

Hank Smith: 00:07:52 Are we going to 61 next?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:53 I wanted to go to 61. I can’t help myself. Can I do verse 60?

Hank Smith: 00:07:57 Absolutely.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:58 I can’t help myself. I’m sorry. When you read my intro, I’ve dealt for years and years going to… I’ll go to different colleges or different divinity schools and get in the ring, as it were, with those that are antagonistic towards the church. I did a series of community firesides in Southern California. The first one was… There was a whole anti thing going on in our town. I was serving as the bishop at the time.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:24 A man came to me in my ward and said, “We got to do something.” I said, “Well, we generally don’t respond.” But it was pretty intense. I said, “Well, let me think about it.” I went to our stake president. I said, “Hey, President, what would you think if we had a fireside? But I want to do this different.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:36 He’s like, “Well, what are you thinking?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:37 I said, “What if we took out radio ads and quarter-page ads in the newspaper? Now here’s the thing. I’d be happy to speak about us being Christians. But here’s the wrinkle. I want to do a Q&A afterwards. Open forum Q&A. They can ask me any question, historical, theological, or doctrinal. It’s okay.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:00 The stake president: “Well, let me think about that.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:02 Anyway, “Okay. We’re going to do it.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:04 Literally took out ads in the newspaper: radio ads. Then, we personally invited the mayor, the city council, all the local priests and teachers, and rabbis. Lo and behold, they came. I lived about two blocks from church. It was going to be at 7:00. I was eating dinner with my family, and I said, “Honey, I’m going to go to the community fireside.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:27 She goes, “Oh, you’re going a little early.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:28 “Yeah, I’m going to walk over there.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:30 I walk over there, and the parking lot is full. I thought they’ve planned another activity. So bummed! I go the stake president’s office, and I said, “President, what’s going on?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:42 He looked at me and goes, “This is going on. You better be good. You better be good.” 1400 people showed up for the first community fireside.

Hank Smith: 00:09:52 Oh, wow!

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:53 They’d opened it up. There were people sitting… actually overflowing the Relief Society room. But it was just packed. There was just electricity. The row in the back of the chapel was taken up by this particular church that had really been riding it hard. I give my talk. We have a hymn, do all that thing. Then, we do the Q&A. The Q&A is just going. It’s just amazing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:10:18 Finally, my stake president… I mean, the Q&A went for quite a while. I thought people would leave. No one left. Finally, he signals to me: “Take your last question.” The lead pastor for this anti-church is sitting on the back row of the chapel, not all the way back in the cultural hall. He raised his hand. I said, “Yes.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:10:36 He goes, “I have a quote here from Brigham Young that proves categorically that Latter-day Saints are not Christian.” Then, he reads this quote, essentially, that says that if you don’t accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, you can’t go to this celestial kingdom. He goes, “Clearly then, these people aren’t Christians. What do you have to say to that?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:10:58 I’m standing there. I prepared enormously for this thing. But I can honestly say I had not prepared for that. But I did do section 84:85. I had treasured up in my mind continually the Words of Life. I can honestly tell you both that I had it given to me in the very moment. What I’m going to say has nothing to do with anything I did. But this is what happened.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:19 He’s standing there. You can imagine 1400/1300 plus people.

Hank Smith: 00:11:24 People are looking.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:26 He’s got the question. By the way, he literally had a laptop with the Latter-day Saint info base on his laptop so he could pull up quotes and hand them out so that they could try to stump us. Here’s the last question. I’m standing there. You could hear a pin drop. I said, “I will be happy to answer your question. But let me ask you one particular question first. He goes, “Okay.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:48 I said, “Imagine you’re living in Jerusalem A.D. 33. It’s the day of Pentecost. Christ has risen from the dead, and it’s now Acts 2. He’s like, “Okay.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:00 I go, “You’re familiar?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:00 “Yes, absolutely.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:01 I say, “Okay. Now, Peter is preaching Christ and Him crucified. Can you reject Peter and accept Christ?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:13 Now, this guy pauses because I had the opportunity of what Jesus did to the Pharisees. He always out Phariseed the Pharisees. Because if he says, “I can reject Peter and accept Christ,” what do you do with the Bible? You throw it away. If he says, “No, you can’t reject Peter and accept Christ,” then he knows that’s the position we’re in. He didn’t say anything.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:41 I said, “Just like you couldn’t reject Peter and fully accept Christ in A.D. 33, so in the Latter-days, you cannot reject the modern-day Peter, the prophet Joseph Smith, and fully accept Christ. 1350 people went, “Hmm.”

Hank Smith: 00:13:01 That was awesome.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:03 I have to tell you guys. It was like I was standing outside myself watching that happen.

Hank Smith: 00:13:08 Wow. You’re thanking the Holy Ghost, just going, “Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:13 I want to be as sincere and as clear as possible that I did not think of that or come up with that. That was given to me in the very moment. It was one of the most amazing experiences. In Isaiah 60:14, there’s a prophecy Isaiah makes. He says, “The sons also of them that afflicted thee shall come bending unto thee. And all they that despise thee shall bow themselves down at the souls of thy feet, and they shall call thee City of the Lord, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:47 In other words, I see the parallel between Joseph, who is sold into Egypt, who is prophesied that they’re going to bow down to you. There’s no way that prophecy could be fulfilled. But of course, it is.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:59 In the Latter-days, the church has been despised/ridiculed. It’s the constant source of anti-presses and all kinds of things. But guess what? The day will come when those people will bend the knee, and those that despise us will bow themselves down at the souls of the feet. I don’t mean to say that in a proud or arrogant.

Hank Smith: 00:14:22 Like ha-ha-ha.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:14:23 No, ha-ha-ha. Not just like Joseph then embraced his brethren, so Joseph Smith will embrace those because they will turn from transgression, and then God can redeem them. We don’t have to wring our hands. Let the antis do what antis do. We do what we’re supposed to do. Every now and then, you’ll get an opportunity to be in a position where I was in a position to have that amazing experience. But I love this verse in Isaiah 60. Sometimes we blow by it because it’s… But boom! I think that’s amazing. So.

John Bytheway: 00:14:56 Wow! It’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:14:58 Yeah. He goes on to say, “I will make thee an eternal excellency.

John Bytheway: 00:15:03 Eternal excellency.

Hank Smith: 00:15:04 Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:05 Ain’t that beautiful?

Hank Smith: 00:15:06 You’ll know that I am the Lord, your Savior.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:09 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:15:11 Yep.

John Bytheway: 00:15:11 I feel like, Ross, it’s-

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:12 Yeah, I’ll tell you the-

John Bytheway: 00:15:13 …all the more reason to be as charitable as we can in those moments. We’re not antagonistic. We’re not burning bridges because of that prophecy right there. Wow! I’m going to remember that story. That’s amazing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:28 We don’t want to be proud. We don’t want to be arrogant. We want to embrace. We want to invite. But like Elder Maxwell said, “We don’t want to let people have uncontested slam dunks.” Sometimes you do have to respond as guided. I tell that story too because it wasn’t… I mean, I had priesthood keys behind me, and it was a beautiful thing.

Hank Smith: 00:15:46 Yeah. I love the ending, there, in 60:14, that everyone will be welcome in Zion.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:54 Again, those that turn from transgression, God embraces them.

Hank Smith: 00:15:57 Come to Zion.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:58 Come to Zion. Note: there is a Joseph Smith Translation. Verse 22: “A little one shall become a thousand, a small one, a strong nation. I, the Lord, will hasten it in my time.” I always like to point out with my students, “Make sure you find your Joseph Smith Translations because that is going to help you understand Isaiah and also will be evidence of the divine mission of the prophet Joseph Smith.” In our 58-66, that’s our first JST right there.

John Bytheway: 00:16:27 That’s the first JST in the segments that we’re looking at today.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:30 Correct. That’s the first JST we’re going to look at in these sections and in my time. That’s that whole concept that Isaiah brings up earlier… I’m not covering in these chapters, of waiting on the Lord. I’m going to hasten in my time. Beautiful. Beautiful idea.

John Bytheway: 00:16:44 Perfect.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:46 Okay. Isaiah 61. Perhaps one of the greatest on par with Isaiah 53 in my view. When we went to Nazareth, we would take the students, of course, to the Church of the Annunciation. But I was not as thrilled with the Church of the Annunciation as I was with this little teeny church. You come out of the Church of the Annunciation. You turn right. You go through a Shuk, a marketplace. Then, there’s this crusader church over where the synagogue was where Jesus reads Isaiah 61 out of the Bible. This is Luke 4:19. I mean, I’m stretching a little here, but I call it Jesus opening His mission call. This is the Savior opening His mission call. He’s in Nazareth. It’s His hometown. They know He’s the carpenter’s son. Of course, he reads these incredible verses where he lays out… I mean, basically, this is His mission. John, would you mind reading-

John Bytheway: 00:17:46 I would love to read this. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:17:47 Would you read verse 1 and 2? Then, we’re going to talk about it. But we’ve got to read three. We’ve got to read some of these other verses. Please.

John Bytheway: 00:17:55 I’m glad we’re reading this in our Come Follow Me manual. It specifically mentions this verse in the opening statement. It says, “Early, in His earthly ministry, Jesus Christ visited a synagogue in Nazareth, the village where He was raised. There He stood to read from the scriptures, opened the book of Isaiah, and read what we now know as Isaiah 61:1-2. He then announced, “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”

John Bytheway: 00:18:21 When I set this up in my class, I like to ask them, “What’s the best Old Testament verse you can think of to describe the Savior?” I don’t even know what it is. Then, I always say, “Well, we don’t have to look because Jesus chose the verse for us. He chose the one to describe Him. The minister gave Him the…or probably He asked for it. This is what He read. Isaiah 61:1: “The spirit of the Lord God is upon me because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and the opening of the prison to them that are bound, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all that mourn.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:10 Wow! Wow! I mean, there’s just so much here in terms of the Savior’s mission. “The spirit of the Lord God is upon me.” I think we need to make sure we understand. In John 3:34, “The Savior…” Well, John is talking, “For he whom God has sent, speaketh the words of God,” and then this phrase, “For God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:40 Now, there’s a Joseph Smith Translation in John 3:34: “For God giveth him not the Spirit by measure for he dwelleth in him even the fullness.” The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me. We need to realize that the Savior in Colossians 1 and 2 talks about the Holy Ghost and the Father dwelling to the degree that the Father can send His spirit with the Savior in a magnificent way to be able to enable Him to do the things He could do.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:20:13 Then, He’s the anointed of the Lord. When we talk about the Lord’s anointed, we might talk about the prophet. But ultimately, we’re talking about Jesus. This goes to the Greek Christos, which, essentially, is the Hebrew Messiah, which both have to do with the fact that you’re the anointed. You’re the anointed one. He is the anointed one to save us. What’s He going to do? I love these verses. He’s going to preach. He’s going to bind up. He’s going to proclaim liberty. He’s going to open prison doors. He’s going to proclaim, and He’s going to comfort. To whom will He do it? These are the beautiful parallels: the meek, the brokenhearted, the captives, them that are bound, and all that mourn. I mean, everyone’s included.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:20:53 I don’t know about you guys, but when I teach 3 Nephi 11 and when the Savior… Or 3 Nephi 17. Well, 11 and 17. But in 17, He says, “Are any among you afflicted in any way? Come to me. I think, “Well, I might not be halt or maimed, but I’m going.

Hank Smith: 00:21:10 Yeah. I think it was “or in any other manner.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:15 In any manner, I’m going. It could be my heart. It could be my mind. What’s the hymn? The wound concealed. I’m going up. I’m going to go up. There’s no one who’s left out here in terms of who the Savior will minister to if you want to be ministered to. This is His mission. This is incredible stuff to ponder about who the Savior is, to comfort all to mourn.

John Bytheway: 00:21:41 As we started, we talked before we hit the record button about that we hoped people would feel the Lord’s healing influence. If they think of God as laws and commandments and judgment, yeah, that’s part of it. But here, when Jesus chose the verse… But in the Luke 4, where He reads this. It says, “To heal the brokenhearted.” I think of all the things the Savior wanted to announce when He got there, He came to heal broken hearts. Of all the things He could have said, He chose these beautiful words for Isaiah to announce His ministry. But that was the custom. The synagogue… You read a verse. But then, don’t you sit down and make a comment.

Hank Smith: 00:22:22 Yep.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:22 You’re going to comment.

John Bytheway: 00:22:23 What happened there?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:24 Well, Luke 4 is amazing because He says, “This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.” They don’t like it. One of the reasons they don’t like it is when He gets done with the Sermon on the Mount, the comment Matthew makes, who’s a Jew… He makes the comment that He taught them as one having authority and not as the scribes. What he means by that is that scribes and rabbis will always use other rabbis and rabbinic commentary to comment. But Jesus doesn’t do that. He’s his own authority. What Matthew is saying is He taught as one as having authority, meaning He doesn’t need to get a rabbi to back him up.

Hank Smith: 00:23:06 He doesn’t go get a reference. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:08 He doesn’t need a reference. He is the reference. He is the Word. When they’re all in that synagogue… And you can imagine the spirit you must have been feeling. In fact, Luke I believe 4 says, “Their eyes were fastened upon Him.” Then, He says, “This day, the scripture is fulfilled in your ears.” I am this right here. This is me. But then, they want to take Him to the brow of a hill. They want to kill Him. Of course, He passes out. He passes through among them. What’s really interesting in terms of the dynamic… He essentially leaves Nazareth and moves to Capernaum. Then, Capernaum becomes the-

Hank Smith: 00:23:44 Headquarters.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:45 …the early headquarters of the church, which is on the northern part of the Sea of Galilee. I love that: how he leaves Nazareth. He basically has to leave Nazareth and then makes Capernaum the platform from which he will then preach the gospel. That’s why that’s so significant there.

Hank Smith: 00:24:02 I think these verses are so critical. I hope our listeners will go read them for themselves. Isaiah 61:1 and 2. Go read them. Read it slowly like John did there. Think about all these beautiful words and how Isaiah put them together. John, I wanted to just read a little bit more out of the manual. Whoever wrote the manual this time around, I got to give a shout-out because it’s beautiful. It says, “This, like many other prophecies of Isaiah, continues to be fulfilled in our day. The Savior continues to heal all the brokenhearted who come unto him. There are yet many captives to whom deliverance must be preached. There is a glorious future to prepare for, a time when the Lord will create new heavens and new earth and cause righteousness and praise to spring forth before all nations.” Those are both Isaiah quotes. Then, this last sentence, “Reading Isaiah opens our eyes to what the Lord has already done, what he is doing, and what he will yet do for his people.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:25:02 Hank, I love what you said, if I may, about reading slowly. I teach a Hebrew class and will spend a day on one verse. Students, in the beginning, will be like, “Gosh, who can spend a day on one verse?” I’m not saying we should read all scripture that way. But sometimes, we go to a gospel doctrine class. It’s like, “Today, we’re going to do Jeremiah 1-47.” No, you’re not. No, you’re not. You’re actually not going to do Jeremiah 1-47.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:25:30 I think what you said: I love that idea. Take Isaiah 61. Read those two verses. Break it out. Parse it. Think about it. Ponder it. There will be a spirit that will accompany that. There really will be. We don’t have to get the volume in, perhaps. But boy, this is power. I love, John, what you said. “What’s your favorite Old Testament in scripture about Jesus? Well, Jesus is telling you about His favorite Old Testament scripture about Him. He chose it.” If somebody was saying, “Wow! Okay, I can do two verses in Isaiah. Let me…” Well, these would be rich, fertile field. I love the idea from the manual. It was fulfilled and is being fulfilled and will continue to be fulfilled.

John Bytheway: 00:26:12 Part of the amazing thing about Isaiah is its-

Hank Smith: 00:26:15 Past, present, and future. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:26:17 Yeah. It’s still going. Bruce R. McConkie said, “Isaiah is above all else the prophet of the restoration.” First time I heard that, I thought, “What?” But so many of these things are still being fulfilled and are still underway. It helps us to see Isaiah that way. This is still relevant today.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:26:36 Well, 2 Nephi 6:4 tells us that he says He sees things as they really are and as they really will be, as they are to come. That’s exactly right. Nephi was able to tap into that as well. But I love this conversation and the comment to take it slow. It’s okay. We don’t always have to read 17 chapters. Take two verses and slow down. That’s a beautiful thing.

John Bytheway: 00:26:58 Can we read verse 3 too?

Hank Smith: 00:26:58 Yeah, I was going to say. You’re almost like, “Oh, I wish he could’ve kept going there in Nazareth.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:03 Yeah. Please.

John Bytheway: 00:27:04 “To a point unto them that mourn in Zion to give unto them beauty for ashes.” That’s poetry.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:12 Yeah. This is beautiful, right?

John Bytheway: 00:27:13 “The oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord; that He might be glorified.”

Hank Smith: 00:27:26 My God.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:26 Goodness. Yeah. Verse three.

John Bytheway: 00:27:29 It’s poetry.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:30 It’s some of the best poetry. It’s some of the best. It’s rich. It’s incredible.

John Bytheway: 00:27:38 It’s amazing that God can do that: to take something like ashes and turn it into beauty, can take some of the… What do they say? Sweet are the uses of adversity. Some of the hardest things can result in beautiful blessings. God is so good at doing that when we turn to Him. I know I’ve heard Elder Hafen use that phrase in one of his talks about beauty for ashes. When I saw beauty for ashes, I thought of Elder Hafen there.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:09 I thought of Elder Hafen, too, by the way, when you said that. The idea of the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness. We live in a world of sarcasm, a world of criticism, finding fault, and this idea of the garment of praise. I think Elder Maxwell used to talk about this phrase, “the garment of praise,” instead of the spirit of heaviness. Then, if I may, that they might be called trees of righteousness: I love trees. I’ve thought a ton about this. I want to be a tree of righteousness. I want to be the planting of the Lord. I think of Russell M. Nelson. The man is a massive oak tree whose roots go down to the center of the earth. He is literally a redwood. I wrote some things down about trees. Trees always grow toward the light. Trees require opposition to thrive. Trees are best grown in forests, not in isolation. Trees draw strength from previous generations of trees. Did you guys know that? Marlin Jensen, do you remember Elder Marlin K. Jensen?

John Bytheway: 00:29:19 Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:19 He gave a talk where he discussed the sacred grove. He mentioned the story… I’m paraphrasing; that some odd years ago, they had this idea to clean out the grove, get rid of all the fallen trees, clean out the grove so visitors can have nice clean pathways. They did. It started to create havoc in the grove. It actually diminished the vitality of what was going on in the sacred grove. Then, these arborists came along and were like, “Well, yeah. You can’t do that.”

John Bytheway: 00:29:53 What’d you do that for?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:53 ‘Why would you do that?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:55 “Well, we wanted to clean it up.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:56 They were like, “No, no, no, no. The previous generation of trees that have died actually provide rich, rich nutrition and growth for these younger trees.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:09 Trees draw strength from previous generations of trees. Trees bear fruit. Trees provide shade. Trees. Point upward. Trees use the power of the sun to provide oxygen for life.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:23 Trees of righteousness… Oh, my word! Here’s the Savior’s mission verses 1 and 2. I’m going to mourn in Zion. I’m repentant. I’m going to get beauty for ashes. I’m going to get oil of joy. I’m going to get the garment of praise. What does it result? It means that Hank and John become trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord. Now, other people… “I’m a little weak in my faith. But I can get shade under your tree. I can temporarily use your treeness….” That’s not a word, “to bless my life.” The Savior says, “You’re going to be the light of the world. You’re going to be the salt of the earth. You’re going to be leaven. Well, this is another one: trees of righteousness; the planting of the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:31:07 Years ago, I read this book about teaching. I can’t remember the author. But this guy was talking about trying to teach his children. One of Hank’s favorite chapters that he often mentions is Jacob 5, the Zenos’s allegory. Finally, this kid, in this moment of inspiration as dad’s trying to do this home evening about Jacob 5… He goes, “Oh, I get it. Trees are people,” because, over and over, the Lord of the vineyard says, “It grieveth with me that I should lose this tree.” Trees are people. Then, you see Isaiah even having the Lord as a lumberjack in one case. He’s going to come and hew down the mighty, the cedars of Lebanon. There’s mighty trees but trees of righteousness. The footnote is there, Hank, topical guide, Vineyard of the Lord. I thought of you because I know how you love Jacob 5.

Hank Smith: 00:31:59 I did. I didn’t love it as a kid. It was so long. It was one of those where you’re like, “We’re going to be here all day.”

John Bytheway: 00:32:05 Isaiah does that too. Isaiah 5 is at-

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:32:07 Yeah. 2 Nephi 15. Isaiah 5.

John Bytheway: 00:32:09 What more could I have done for my vineyard? It sounds like Jacob 5. “It grieveth me to lose any tree.” I like this.

Hank Smith: 00:32:16 Yeah, I bet Elder Oaks likes this one. Don’t you think? The trees of righteousness.

John Bytheway: 00:32:20 Yeah. Probably the branch president. That’s good, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:32:23 Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to FollowHIM.

John Bytheway: 00:32:30 No. But thank you for those, Ross. I’m sorry. Thank you for that. They grow towards the light. They benefit from previous generations.

Hank Smith: 00:32:37 Yeah, there’s so much there.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:32:39 They grow toward the light. They require opposition to thrive. I know that you gave a timeout for women where you talked about this guy that had the Venus fly trap plant or something in your ward.

John Bytheway: 00:32:49 Oh my goodness! That’s right.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:32:50 You talked about pure water. Pure light. It has to have adversity.

John Bytheway: 00:32:54 It has to have a cold period, he called it, Brother Wilson, in my ward. Thank you.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:00 Trees that require opposition… They’re best grown, in forests not in isolation. I get these kids sometimes. Like, “Brother Baron, I’m in the annoying first ward.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:11 I’m always like, “Awesome, that’s so great that you’re in an annoying ward.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:15 They’re like, “What do you mean?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:16 I said, “Listen, the ward and your family are the laboratory where you can develop faith, virtue, knowledge, temperance, patience, brotherly kindness, godliness, charity, humility, and diligence. You don’t get those in isolation.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:30 I love this one. “I just go up on a mountain. I take my scriptures, and that’s where I’m spiritual.” Yeah, of course, lame-o. Who wouldn’t be spiritual alone on the top of a mountain? But go live in a ward and go associate with people you wouldn’t otherwise associate people. Go have teenagers, and now live the gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s where you’re going to develop those attributes. The idea of trees of righteousness… Trees do not grow well in isolation. They need to be with other trees because they provide some of that opposition. I love that. I literally want to be the planting of the Lord. The planting of the Lord is just… It’s amazing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:34:11 Again, I look at the first presidency, Dallin H. Oaks and Henry B. Eyring with President Nelson… They are trees of righteousness. They are the planting of the Lord. I hope they wouldn’t be offended by that. I don’t mean that in any way irreverent. I mean, that is absolute compliment to them.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:34:27 If we look at verse 10, we have these beautiful ideas that the Lord will keep reemphasizing here. “I will greatly rejoice in the Lord. My soul shall be joyful in my God.” He’s done all these things for us. We’ve got the mission of Jesus. “For He hath clothed me with the garments of salvation.” Okay. I’m clothed. “He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:34:53 Kafar… I know you guys have talked about this on the Come Follow Me podcast so far, that we’re being covered, which essentially is the Hebrew word for atonement. Yom Kippur is the day of covering. You brought up Alma 42. But I also love Alma 34. “If I don’t repent, I’m exposed. If I do repent, I’m encircled.” Naked versus clothed, just different ways of saying it. Here he’s saying I’m clothed with the garments of salvation. I’ve covered me with the robe of righteousness. How? “Like a bride groom decketh of themself with ornaments and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewel.”

Hank Smith: 00:35:33 Wow!

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:35:34 Again, this beautiful poetry of me turning from transgression, accepting what the Savior’s offered me: His mission. Now, I’m getting everything he said in verse three: “As I move to the Savior, and He covers me.” It’s just another way of saying I get beauty for ashes, oil of joy for mourning, and garments of praise for the spirit of heaviness. He’s just reiterating what he’s saying. We’re learning more and more. We’re being persuaded to believe more in the Lord, our Redeemer. I think that’s what’s going on there.

Hank Smith: 00:36:09 Sounds a little like Ammon. “I will boast of my God. I will greatly rejoice in my Lord.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:15 Love that. In Isaiah 62, if you don’t mind, I sometimes like to look at… So what is God asking me to do? Here’s the Savior’s mission. Here’s a prophetic mission. Here’s the church’s ultimate destiny. This is what’s going to happen to Zion. But what do I need to do? You go to 62. In verse 10, I think the Lord gives this quick one verse. I think it’s a beautiful verse about what I’m to do. Hank, would you be okay reading that?

Hank Smith: 00:36:47 62:10. “Go through! Go through the gates. Prepare ye the way of the people. Cast up! Cast up the highway. Gather out the stones. Lift up a standard for the people.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:58 Wow! Isaiah has a gift. In one verse, he gave me some great stuff. It’s the imperative: “Go through! Go through!” What am I going to go through? I’m going through the gates. Now, I know that Isaiah was writing in 747 B.C. Gates… Shaar HaRachamim. Sha’ar is gate. It’s the critical point of any city. It’s the pathway by which you entered. I want to suggest to you that he’s using this as a double metaphor. That the gate is literally entering into covenants with our Heavenly Father.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:37:32 Before I can truly help in the work, I’ve got to enter in by the gate. I’ve got to participate in ordinances. “Go through! Go through.” That’s imperative. It’s a command form. What am I to go through? Go through the gates. You got to get into the ordinances. Once I get through, I can now prepare the way of the people. I’m going to now turn to others. How am I going to do that? I got to make the highway smooth for people, gather out the stones, and then I’ve got to lift up the standard. I’ve got to be a proclaimer of truth.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:06 I love the missionary department: love, share, and invite. How do I lift up a standard for the people? I love my neighbors. I share organically the gospel whenever I have an opportunity, and I invite. That’s how I do it. How do I cast up the highway and gather out the stones? I believe by me repenting, by me being a better person. I don’t have to worry about other people. I’m going to cast out the stones on the highway by… I have to become a better person. I love to look at some of these verses in terms of what is it we can do. I think that’s super practical.

Hank Smith: 00:38:39 I was just reading in the contemporary English version. We talked about using our tools beforehand. It says, “People of Jerusalem, open your gates. Repair the road to the city, and clear it of stones. Raise a banner to help the nations find their way.” I like that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:56 Same here.

Hank Smith: 00:38:57 Help people find their way.

John Bytheway: 00:38:59 The idea of a standard has always been fascinating to me because you get invited to speak at a standards night. You think, “Am I talking about the basketball standard? What am I talking about?”

Hank Smith: 00:39:08 What’s the standard?

John Bytheway: 00:39:09 The idea of that, of being a flag or a banner that says, “This is whose side I am on. This is who I represent. This is who I am as a person, or this is my people, and to raise that standard.” The opposite of stand is to shrink or buckle or wilt or compromise. To stand for something… I just love the idea of “raise a standard.” I like that banner, an ensign in another place, probably. Here’s the gathering point, or here’s who we are, and here’s where we’re going to gather so that we can march. I love the idea of a standard as a statement of “this is who we are” type of a thing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:39:47 It’s uncompromising. It’s the rallying point. There’s a certain uncompromising thing. Right now, the world hates that. Even a lot of our students are concerned about that. But what you said. There’s no shrinking. There’s no compromise. It is the standard. By the way, again, going back to 2 Nephi 26:24, Hank, because that will be the benefit for the children of men. That’ll bless us.

Hank Smith: 00:40:17 It even says in verse 12, “You’ll be sought out.” People want that standard.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:40:22 By the way, that standard that we see, obviously, we could talk about some of the nature, but the proclamation of the family is a standard. I love, John, how you said that. It’s uncompromising. It’s a rallying point.

John Bytheway: 00:40:34 Let me give us a footnote for that. This was a youth theme a few years ago. Section 115 of the Doctrine and Covenants 5: “Arise and shine forth that thy light may be a standard for the nations.”

Hank Smith: 00:40:48 Awesome. That is perfect. Ross, I’m looking at the rest of the chapters here, 63-66, and according to the chapter headings, at least, we are talking Second Coming. Is that right?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:41:04 We are. Not only are we talking about Second Coming. We’re talking about the ultimate triumph of Zion: talking about the Second Coming. We’re also talking about the millennium. I’d like to comment just about Isaiah 63. The first couple of verses are like a Q&A. Then, the Savior makes this, I think, really important comment in verse 3. “I have trodden the wine press alone. Of the people, there was none with me, for I will tread them in my anger and trample them in my fury. Their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments. I will stain all my raiment.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:41:37 When I was in Israel, and those of you have been, you know that there’s these massive wine presses. The idea that one person would tread a wine press is ridiculous. They just don’t do that. Isaiah is making a stark image that would’ve resonated with them at that time. But maybe now, people don’t fully get what that means. I just love this idea of him treading the wine press alone. If I could read from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland April 2009 general conference entitled None Were With Me.

Hank Smith: 00:42:11 I remember that. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:42:12 Yeah. “I speak of the loneliest journey ever made and the unending blessings it brought to all the human family. I speak of the Savior’s solitary task of shouldering alone the burden of our salvation.” There is the idea of “alone.” Rightly he would say. Then, Elder Holland quotes Isaiah 63:3, “Thus of divine necessity, the supporting circle around Jesus gets smaller and smaller and smaller. He had to feel what it was like to die, not only physically but spiritually, to sense what it was like to have the divine spirit withdraw, leaving one feeling totally abjectly, hopelessly alone. Because Jesus walks such a long lonely path, utterly alone, we do not have to do so.” Again, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, None Were with Him, April 2009, general conference.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:04 That is just so powerful. Then, the phrase in verse 9, in terms of the Second Coming but also in terms of what He suffered and what He did, Isaiah testifies, “In all their afflictions, He was afflicted.” This is maybe one of the more powerful verses: that in all their afflictions, He was afflicted. Then, of course, we do have Second Coming things here. Then, after the Second Coming, I think this idea where He’s going to testify to us that doubtless you are our Father. That there is this idea that He is our Father.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:41 There is a Joseph Smith Translation in verse 17 that I think we need to focus on just for a second. “Oh, Lord.” I’m reading the King James Version. “Why hast thou made us to err from the ways and hardened our hearts from thy fear return for thy servant’s sake the tribes of divine inheritance.” Then, the Joseph Smith Translation, footnote A, “Oh, Lord, why hast thou suffered us to err from thy ways and to harden our heart?” In other words, we’re the ones who choose to harden our heart, not the-

John Bytheway: 00:44:12 The agency.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:44:13 Yeah. Yeah. Agency. Again, just Isaiah 64 is this, I think, eternal prayer that the righteous have throughout the ages. The prayer is, of course, “Oh, that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldst come down, that the mountains might flow down at thy presence.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:44:30 I would alert your listeners to section 133 of the Doctrine and Covenants, starting in verse 40, going, say, all the way to verse 53, Joseph Smith, in a revelation, basically reorders and even reworks some of the verses in Isaiah 63 and 64. I think if somebody wanted to do that or on their own, I would say it’s not a correction as much as it is just an alternative way the Lord wants us to look at it. Does that make sense?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:45:05 In D&C section 35, when Sidney Rigdon shows up with Edward Partridge, right after they’ve been baptized in Kirtland, in verse 20, the Lord gives a revelation and says that… “Sidney, you’re to write for him,” for Joseph and the Joseph Smith Translation. “You’re going to write for him the things which are in my bosom for the salvation of my Saints and the Latter-days. In other words, I think that’s one of the best definitions of what the Joseph Smith Translation is.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:45:30 Sometimes people think, “Oh. If I had the original manuscript, it would say exactly what the JST says. Maybe not because it’s those things, what God has in his bosom for the salvation of his elect in the Latter-days. When I look at section 133 and some of the reworking of Isaiah 63 and 64 and some of the reordering of the verses and even some additions in the language, I don’t think it’s necessarily saying those were wrong and this is right. I just think that’s part of what God has for us in the Latter-days as a response to that, if that’s okay.

Hank Smith: 00:46:02 Oh, yeah. I think that’s a great way to describe it.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:46:05 Yeah. Then, verse 8 in chapter 64: “But now, oh, Lord, thou our Father. We are the clay, and thou our potter, and we are all the work of the hand. Amen.” So good.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:46:16 Now, I want to add something if I can. Chapter 65, the Joseph Smith translation… The footnotes of the appendix doesn’t contain the entire manuscript of the Joseph Smith Translation. I was looking at the Joseph Smith Translation. I want to share with you, and for your readers, if you want to use the citation index, it has the complete Joseph Smith Translation of the Old Testament on there. I’m not sure if you guys were aware of that, but it does.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:46:43 Isaiah 65:1 reads, “I am sought of them that asks not of me. I am found of them that sought me not. I said, ‘Behold me! Behold me unto a nation that was not called by my name.'” I’ve struggled with that verse. What is going on? But the Joseph Smith Translation says, “I am found of them who seek after me. I give unto all them that ask of me. I am not found of them that sought me not, or that inquireth not after me.” Thank goodness. Thank goodness. Oh, my word.

Hank Smith: 00:47:18 That clears that up perfectly.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:19 Doesn’t it? I mean, it’s just like, “Okay, we’re good.” I just love that. I just wanted to alert your listeners that you can look on the citation index. The Joseph Smith translation does have that verse changed. I think it’s super critical, so if that’s okay.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:36 I wanted to look, if you will, at verse 11 because I think it’s a warning to us. We’re prior to the Second Coming. We want to be his covenant people. “But ye are they that forsake the Lord, that forget my holy mountain, and that prepare a table for that troop.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:53 Now, if you look at your footnote for troop 11A, it’s an idol. I think it’s interesting that the Lord… His covenant people have forsaken Him. They forget the temple, and they make other gods their priority. Well, so what’s the result?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:10 Look at verse 13 and 14. “Therefore, thus sayeth the Lord, God, ‘Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry. Behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty. Behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed. Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart and shall howl for vexation of spirit.'”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:29 Now, I don’t think we’re talking about physical things here. We might be. But I think we’re talking about the servants of God are eating the bread of life. We’re drinking from the living water. We are rejoicing in the God of Israel. In other words, we’re not ashamed because we’re covered. Does that make sense? That when we forsake the Lord, forget his temple, and make other gods a priority, we receive consequences. Those are some of the consequences that Isaiah lays out. The rebellious are going to be hungry, thirsty, ashamed.

Hank Smith: 00:49:04 You’re going to be hungry, thirsty, ashamed.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:04 You’re going to cry for sorrow of heart and vexation of spirit.

Hank Smith: 00:49:07 These idols cannot provide you what you’re seeking.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:10 Yeah, that’s exactly right. Again, talking about the Second Coming and going to Isaiah 66, there are some amazing things here. There’s a very famous prophecy in Isaiah 66 and this idea of a nation being born in a day. We’ve got verse 7: “Before she travailed, she brought forth. Before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:39 Verse eight, “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day, or shall a nation be born at once? For as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.” Then the Lord asks, “‘Shall I bring to the birth and not cause to bring forth?’ saith the Lord, ‘Shall I cause to bring forth and shut the womb?’ saith thy God.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:50:01 I’ve looked extensively at the prophetic commentaries on that. Spencer Kimball, Orson Pratt, Orson Hyde, Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and others have talked about how ultimately, at the Second Coming, Gentiles, Jews, and Lamanites… There will be some major conversion going on. If I can, I would add Islam. I would add some of these other things. I don’t totally pretend to know how that’s going to work. But I still think we’re in the preparatory phase in terms of missionary work on both sides of the veil. I think that Isaiah is seeing a bigger picture, and I think it’s ongoing now. But I think it will really explode at the Second Coming.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:50:45 I think a lot of people think, “Oh, well, there won’t be any missionary work at the Second Coming.” No, no, no. Major work at the Second Coming, major work at the millennium. In the millennial day, there will also be major missionary work. Brigham was very clear that there would be those not of our faith during the millennium because why? Because the agency is always honored. He goes through. He starts talking about all these things.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:51:08 But I’d love to have your comments and your thoughts. He talks about verse 15, “The Lord will come with fire with His chariots like a whirlwind to render his anger with fury and His rebuke with flames of fire. Going through all this, He knows our works.” But then verse 19, “For I will set a sign among them.” 3 Nephi 21, “The Lord says, ‘I’m going to give you a sign.'”

Hank Smith: 00:51:38 Words of the book.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:51:39 Yep. I’m talking about the Book of Mormon. I will set a sign among them: the Latter-day token, the Latter-day sign, the Book of Mormon. “I will send those that escape of them.” What an interesting phrase. “Those who accept the sign and escape the world are going to be sent.” Where are we going to be sent? “Tarshish, Pul, Lud, Tubal, Javan, the isles afar off, those that have not heard the fame, neither have seen the glory of the Lord.” To do what? “To declare my glory among the Gentiles.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:52:15 Then, here’s the cool thing. What is the offering you and I make in the Latter-days really? “They shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the Lord out of all nations.” I think if President Nelson was here on this podcast, he’d say from both sides of the veil.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:52:34 Isaiah 2, “All nations flow into the house of the Lord,” the house of the God of Jacob. The Hebrew word: all nations “river” into it. They all river into it. What do we do in the Latter-days? He gives us a sign. Those who’ve accepted the sign then go to all nations. Then, what do we do? We bring an offering to the Lord. What’s the offering? People from both sides of the veil. From where? From everywhere. Where do we bring it? In the middle of verse 20, “To my holy mountain, Jerusalem, saith the Lord, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the Lord.” I think Jerusalem becomes a proxy holy city for all of our holy temples, a proxy holy city for all of our stakes of Zion, so what we do is we bring our children. We bring our family. We bring ourselves, and we bring everyone else on both sides of the veil as a holy offering. That’s the requirement in the Latter-days: for us to be able to do that. I just absolutely love that.

Hank Smith: 00:53:34 Ross, was he describing something very similar in chapter 65:17. “I create new heavens and a new earth. Be glad and rejoice forever for which I create. For behold, I create Jerusalem, a rejoicing” I love verse 19. “I will rejoice in Jerusalem and joy in my people, and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard. The voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her nor the voice of crying.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:01 Well, in Isaiah 65, he also taps into some of the Deuteronomy promises in Deuteronomy 28. Isaiah is very connected to that. They’re going to build houses and live in them. They’re going to plant vineyards and eat of the fruit of them. They’re not going to labor in vain. They’re going to be the seed of the blessed. They’re going to have prayer and revelation. All these things are tied to the promises Moses gave. He said, “If you guys will do these things, God will be your God.” Isaiah seems to be tapping into this idea that premillennial and then post-millennial, these things can happen as well.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:32 I’m interested also in Isaiah 66:3, where, at the end of verse 3, he says, “Yea, they have chosen their own ways and their soul delighteth in their abominations.” They’ve chosen their own ways.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:49 If you think, again, bookends, go back to Isaiah 2, where he talked about “everyone walketh in his own way, but we go to the temple, so we learn the Lord’s ways.” They have chosen their own ways. Then, what does he say? Verse 4? “So I also will choose their delusions and will bring their fears upon them.” Why? “Because when I called, none did answer. When I spake, they did not hear.” That is also a theme in Isaiah, starting in Isaiah 50:2, where He goes through. Then, here, in Isaiah 66, and also he brings up this idea of “He keeps calling, and people are not answering.” I think He’s calling… Remember section 43 of the Doctrine and Covenants? Every voice possible. He’s using every single avenue possible to call people to Him. He will measure out His mercy and His love and His justice in accordance with our capacity, I think, and our opportunity to hear. But some people have heard and reject. This idea at the end of verse 3… They have chosen their own ways. I don’t know. I think you, brethren, have heard this phrase, “You do you.”

Hank Smith: 00:55:59 Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:55:59 You’ve heard that phrase.

Hank Smith: 00:56:00 Oh, yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:00 You do you. I had a kid in my class say that recently. “You do you.” I said, “I 100% disagree with that.” I don’t want to do me. I’m lame. I’m fallen. I want to do what Jesus wants me to do. That’s what I want to do because I could be wrong. You do you. I’m pretty lousy at knowing what exactly I need and what I want. I want what God wants for me. In fact, that’s why I’m a member. That’s why I’m in covenants because I want what God wants. I want prophetic direction. I want ordinances and covenants. I want that. I want to choose the way of God. Even the Savior, the ultimate example, had to bend. He didn’t want to do him. He wanted to do the will of the Father.

John Bytheway: 00:56:46 I’ve told my class, “Jesus never said you do you. He said you do me.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:51 Exactly.

John Bytheway: 00:56:51 He said, “What manner of men ought ye to be even as I am?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:55 Amen.

John Bytheway: 00:56:56 But what you just said adds another dimension. I do only the things that please the Father. First thing he said when he showed up to the righteous in the new world… “I’ve done the will of the Father from the beginning.”

Hank Smith: 00:57:10 Yeah. Ross, I loved what you said. The Lord is pleading to be chosen. He doesn’t want to punish. That’s 66:16. The Lord pleads with all flesh.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:22 God wants us to want Him. He calls in every possible way. I mean, literally calling us. But then, there’s this sadness to it. We get this sadness. “I’ve called, but no one answers. I’ve tried. I’ve tried.” This goes back to Jacob 5. “What more could I have done?” By the way, when I get to that in Jacob 5 with my students. I go, “What’s the answer?” The answer is nothing. There’s nothing more you could have done.

John Bytheway: 00:57:52 The same, in Isaiah 5. It’s, “What more could I have done?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:56 Nothing.

John Bytheway: 00:57:56 Same thing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:59 These verses speak of this beautiful millennial day. But I love the idea of the offering that we bring in the Latter-days, are other children of God, and that we waste and wear out our lives to serve the Savior, to minister, to love, share, and invite, to unite the family of God, to live the Gospel of Christ in our own lives. That is the message of Isaiah. Remember, Elder Uchtdorf just gave this beautiful thing with the Teaching the Savior’s Way. They kept the four points of: love your students, teach the doctrine, teach by the Spirit, invite diligent learning. But they added… The overarching one is no matter what you teach, teach about Jesus Christ. No matter what you teach, teach about Jesus Christ. Isaiah is the epitome of that, from 1-6. He echoes through the ages. No matter what I teach, I’m going to teach about Jesus Christ.

John Bytheway: 00:58:57 I love to tell my students, “Look at His name. His name means Jehovah is salvation, or, in bumper sticker language, Jesus saves.” Abinadi quotes him because the wicked priests thought that the law saved, the law of Moses saved. No. Then, he reads him Isaiah 53. I was going to add, too, that there is a sadness here. But it’s like, “Wow! The deadline… It actually comes. It actually happened.” When I teach 2 Nephi 28, there’s no devil. There’s no hell: all of those lies that Satan tells. I always like to add… Here’s another one that’s not in there, but I like it. There’s no hurry.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:32 That’s great.

John Bytheway: 00:59:34 No, there is because, look, eventually, it’s going to be too late. It’ll be everlastingly too late. Get your act together while there’s still time.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:44 Well, and that’s an Elder Holland. Remember, Elder Holland, at the end of one talk, he said, “There’s always time as long as the master says there’s time. Hurry up. Time is running out.”

Hank Smith: 00:59:53 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:59:54 That’s right. Right at the end of the talk. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:59:56 Ross, this has been a fantastic day going through these verses of Isaiah, some of these chapters that I can’t say I really understood before. I feel like I have a grasp on. Right, John? Just…

John Bytheway: 01:00:07 Oh, it’s just been great. I think I’ve taken more notes today than for a long time. Now, I’m motivated to go back. I got to look at this again and try to get some of this inside. But thank you so much, Ross. Amazing.

Hank Smith: 01:00:21 Ross, I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as both a Latter-day Saint, as a Jew growing up in a Jewish family converting and becoming a Latter-day Saint, and also being a bible scholar. What’s that journey been like?

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:00:35 Well, I’ll tell you. Remember I told you that I was reading the Book of Mormon and Jesus the Christ and all this stuff? I was so fired up. This was in Southern California, and I lived in the San Fernando Valley at the time. I went to a Christian bookstore, not knowing that they wouldn’t have books about the church except that were anti. I literally didn’t know that. I walked in, and I was like, “Hi.” The lady behind the counter was like, “I’d love to read books about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” She just handed me a headlamp and said, “Go in that dark area over there.” No, she didn’t really do that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:01:11 I went to this bookshelf, and it was all anti stuff. I bought three books. I read them. I had a yellow pad. I mean, I’m 18. I’m not a member of the church. I’ve got my pen out, and I’ve got these anti books. I’m reading them. There’s an interesting thing. I have read antisemitic literature. I’ve been exposed to that in my family, of course, the Holocaust. I realize that the spirit of antisemitism, the vitriolic that was there was similar. I remember thinking, “Wow! These guys are wackos.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:01:54 I still remember there was three or four questions. I read these three books. I took my yellow pad. There was about three or four questions I did actually have. I went to the missionaries. I said, “Hey, I have these three or four questions.” It wasn’t super problematic. I was able to overcome that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:11 When I was getting my Ph.D., essentially in philosophy and theology, I was asked by members of my ward, “Is this hard for you? Is this hard on your faith?” I can be totally honest with you. I would leave classes with chills because I would say, “Joseph Smith, the restoration, answers these questions.” I literally left with chills.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:34 I’ll tell you a story. I had a friend. His name was Royce Grubic: this big tall guy. We were getting our Ph.D.s together. We used to walk back to our cars and be in classes together. He goes, “Ross, I know why you do this.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:46 I was like, “Do what?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:47 He’s like, ‘I know why you’re so immersed in the Ph.D. program, and you read everything. It’s just one more arrow in your quiver for Mormonism.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:57 I was like, “Royce, dude, that is sweet. I’m going to use that.” One more arrow in your quiver for Mormonism. I literally try to take everything I learn and use it to build the kingdom. I love your point. Oh, if you knew what I knew. I guarantee you I know more than what they think I know. I guarantee you I’ve read it. There’s no new anti argument. It’s all the same rehash. It’s all based on certain assumptions and certain premises.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:03:26 I take a view that you don’t ever have to worry about truth. But I do like to learn certain skills. I want to be source-critical, and I want to be careful. But boy, if it’s true, I want to embrace it. I’m not going to be afraid of it. But I got to still pay the price. I have to know my text. My message here is that’s not because I’m a scholar or not because I have a Ph.D.. It’s because I pay a price reading my text, listening to the words of prophets, and apostles and doing my darnedest to understand the Word. I believe the man in Guatemala or anybody else in the world can do that exact same thing.

John Bytheway: 01:04:04 It helps me. I think it helps all of our listeners to know there are those out there who have paid that price. We’re all still working on it. But it’s so nice to know there are those who have read it all.

John Bytheway: 01:04:17 I remember Robert Millet saying he would have students come to him. “Hey, did you know about this?”

John Bytheway: 01:04:22 “Yeah, I knew about it.”

John Bytheway: 01:04:23 “Oh, you do? Oh, okay.”

John Bytheway: 01:04:25 That was enough because they knew I know about it. I’ve studied it, and it’s not a deal breaker.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:04:29 Right. I know you guys have thought about this. But in John 6, of course, you know He’s fed the 5,000. They want to make Him a king because they want free food. Then, He says, boom, “Except you eat my flesh and drink my blood. You have no part in me,” and then doesn’t explain it. Can you imagine, John, if you and I were, let’s say, disciples, I would go up to Peter and be like, “Hey, Peter. What the heck?”

John Bytheway: 01:04:58 Was that a metaphor? What was that?

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:01 What’s going on? I think Peter would’ve said, “I don’t know. I don’t know.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:06 “Well, what do we do, Peter?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:09 “You know what we do? We follow Jesus because He is the Christ.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:15 “I don’t totally get it. Peter! Peter! I don’t totally get it. But he’s the Christ.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:21 Beyond just being somebody who’s paid a price in the text and beyond a price I paid in other areas, you have to get a witness and settle it in your heart. You have to get a witness by the power of the Holy Ghost and settle it in your heart. I am settled in my heart. I love the Lord. I love his prophets and apostles. I love the church. I love this conversation we’re having.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:05:46 I always tell my students, “Look, you can ask me any question in class. But know one thing. I’m under the umbrella of faith.” I teach a class in philosophy every single semester because of my Ph.D. I always tell them first day, “In my class, we will study philosophy. You will know as much as anybody about Kant or Aristotle or Schopenhauer, whoever we’re studying. But we will do this. We will judge the philosophers by the gospel, not the gospel by the philosophers.” They look at me. I go, “Are we clear? We’re never going to judge the gospel by Aristotle. But we’re going to judge Aristotle by the gospel.” I go, “We’re not going to diminish our rigor. We’re not going to know less than somebody who went to Harvard. We’re going to know just as much.” But at the end of the day, what the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches us trumps all those other things.

John Bytheway: 01:06:35 I’m transferring to Rexburg, Hank.

Hank Smith: 01:06:38 Thank you, Dr. Ross Baron. I can feel the power all the way up there in Rexburg. I can feel the warmth of your testimony. We want to thank Dr. Baron for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We hope all of you will join us next week. We’re coming back with another episode of FollowHIM. We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about: David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.