John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:00:07 And then we get to move right onto Enoch. So we’ve laid this foundation. This is who you are, and here comes Enoch and he’s journeying, right? And it says the spirit of God descended and said, Enoch, and what is it going to be there in 27? Enoch, my son. The very first thing, Moses-

John  Bytheway: 00:00:28 My son. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:00:29 My son. Yes. Joseph, my son. Identity at the very core of this. The thing is we cannot change that identity, nothing we can do can take us. Nothing our children can do can take them from being ours. And having that beautiful relationship, right? Established at the very core. Nothing you can do will take you from being mine, and my love for you. So then he says, repent. And then look at these phrases at the very end of 27, their hearts have waxed hard, their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes cannot see afar off. And then coming back to President Nelson, teaching us what metanoia means, and that it’s this change. And he said, it’s a change of mind, a change of hearing, a change of seeing, a change of heart. And the Lord is saying, I mean, you’re thinking of these people and you’re like, how pathetic. They can’t hear, they can’t see, their hearts are hard, right? And that’s me, that’s all of us, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:01:44 And the Lord’s saying, here is the answer, it is repentance, it is metanoia, that’s what Christ promises us. I will change your heart, I will enable you to see all things anew. John, as you read from the Bible Dictionary, right? “And a fresh view of God, a fresh view of one’s self. Now, when I got to these verses, I read the word angry. And I don’t know if you feel this way, but I’m sensitive about the word angry, and I’m sensitive about reading that God is angry. And I kind of want to be like, I’m afraid of anger, right? I’m a little bit afraid of anger.

John  Bytheway: 00:02:22 I’m glad you’re about this, because I get this in New Testament class. When Jesus cleansed the temple, was he angry?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:02:31 Yes. And John, I’d love to hear how you teach that. As we’ve been working on the issue of sexuality and our stake, my wonderful Stake Presidency, he’s been so clear in saying passions are given to us gifts, sexual desire is a God endowed gift. And then the Lord says, passions are to be set within the bounds I have set, right? And so I think we tend to say about sexuality or anger, right? Stop it, control it, get rid of it, don’t do it, don’t look. And that’s all we say, right? Instead of emotions are given, and this is just all over in the parenting research. The importance of identifying and talking with children about feelings. Maybe in the last 10 years, the strongest research suggests the importance of identifying and talking about emotions, including the emotion of anger.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:03:27 And I love that we get to read that God was angry. That all emotions, passions are given to us as gifts to teach us. Anger can lead us to see the truth about moral violations, to see them clearly when there has been a violation of something moral, right? When there is a wrong done to us or done to others, anger is a natural emotion that can lead the mind to action. What it asks of us is what are your motive motivations for that anger? What are the motivations of God in this anger here? What is it about him? Is it about him, Hank? Because you and I described, right? That child says no, and my feeling can be anger incensed at you, right? Disrespect for me.

Hank Smith: 00:04:17 You’ve insulted me. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:04:18 You’ve insulted me, right? And then it’s all about me, and that emotion of anger is outside the bounds that God has said because it is not in that purity of changing something that is wrong for the good of others.

Hank Smith: 00:04:33 Of the person for the good.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:04:34 Yes. And so here’s the Lord, I do think anger has played a very important role throughout history for positive social change. When there’s abuse going on, it’s a natural feeling. I think when there’s a violation of covenants of chastity, for example, right? A spouse who’s been betrayed, those feelings of anger are very natural. And they can have a rightful place, I think God is teaching us. They can help us see a moral violation, something that has been wrong. And what’s important is that purity of heart, right? About where within those bounds, where that emotion is coming from.

Hank Smith: 00:05:11 His fierce anger is coming from his fierce love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:05:15 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:05:15 Right? For his children.

John  Bytheway: 00:05:18 Jenet, what you said reminds me of keeping things within bounds. When Alma talks to his son, Shiblon, he says, I just love the word, “Bridle all your passions.” It wasn’t, “Destroy your passions.” It wasn’t, “Deny your passions.” It wasn’t, “It’s wrong to have passions”. It was, “Bridle all your passions, that you may be filled with love,” which is so interesting and so different. And so when you were saying that, I thought, “Yeah, maybe the passions, they’re in control and maybe anger.” Can there be anger, where I’m angry but I’m in control? I’m not, “You are out of control,” we will use that phrase, right?

John  Bytheway: 00:06:07 And boy, I’m just throwing it out there because it’s always an interesting discussion and sometimes a disputed discussion about, does God get angry? What does that mean? What does it look like? Is it the same kind of anger we have? I mean, I’m curious what you both think about that, the cleansing of the temple and that kind of anger. And maybe that’s not for this podcast, but I’m just… I like what you said, because that gives me a framework to say it was anger, look at the motive. For Jesus, this is my father’s house. It wasn’t about him personally, and it was controlled.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:06:47 Yes, in those bounds, and that it has an important place, right? In stopping some pretty significant moral wrongs that were going on at that time, right? And an abuse of lower class individuals, a way of exploiting it, right? And the Lord does not look lightly on that kind of thing. And I think sometimes we can, right? Someone who’s in an abusive situation can feel afraid of really calling out what’s happened because if emotions like anger and feeling like this are absolutely wrong and I need to stand up to this as opposed to turn the other cheek, right? We can misuse teachings of the savior to cause people to stay in places of abuse. And the Lord is clearly saying, there is a place for saying this is wrong and this cannot go on, right? And he’s feeling that way now as he’s looking at his children, harming one another, and hurting one another.

Hank Smith: 00:07:46 As I read ahead here, why is he angry, “Yet they repent not.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:07:51 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:07:51 Right. That goes back to verse one, “Adam was called to teach people to repent,” and now the Lord is upset that there is no repenting happening.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:08:02 Yes. And they’re hurting one another, right? Their own flesh, using power against one another. Okay, here is verse 28. And I think Hank, as you were just talking about the Lord’s feelings of pain and anger, right? Here, it says, “I created them and they have gone astray, and have denied me, and sought their own counsels in the dark.” And so it’s, right, that theme throughout the old Testament of the unfaithful wife, right? You’ll hear in Hosea, right? And the Lord saying, “Do not deny me, do not turn away from me. Do not betray me,” right? I love how in the prodigal son’s story, it says, right? He came to himself, the truth about his identity, of who he is, which is why when you see a child’s struggle, and as they’re growing and developing, all you’re wanting for them is to come to themselves, to their best selves, your best self, which is what God wants for us.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:09:09 We are with Enoch, and he hears this call from the Lord. Verse 31, “And when Enoch could heard these words, he bow himself to the earth before the Lord and speak before the Lord saying, “Why is it that I have found favor in thy sight, and I’m but a lad, and all the people hate me for I am slow of speech, wherefore, meaning why, am I thy servant?” Here is his vulnerability, totally unafraid to show his mortality and his fallibility, and this is who I am. Are you sure, right? This is me. And I just think that vulnerability therein lies power. Weakness is honesty about who we are, right? He’s being honest about who we are. And when we are honest about who we are, and our fallibility, and our weakness, and our need for God, he can be honest with us about who we can become.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:10:02 But when we hide, we cannot hear him say what we can become. I love how Ann Voskamp, that great Christian writer, she’ll say, “Weaknesses do not bar us from mercy. They incline God to us the more.” And children feel the same way. I think when we are honest about ourselves, they feel trust in us, they can develop trust. Mom and dad aren’t going to lie about their fallibility, they’re going to be honest about it, and I can trust them, and I can trust myself in this process of growing.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:10:33 Okay. 32, 33, 34. “Enoch go forth, open thy mouth and it shall be filled, and I will give the utterance.” So here he said, I can’t even talk, I’m slow of speech. And the Lord says, why are you afraid? I will open your mouth. “I will give you utterance, for all flesh is in my hands.” And I think about how we fear, right? Whatever we’re called to do, even as parents, I think maybe especially the fear there in that significant role. And the Lord saying, I will give the utterance, it shall be filled. And then verse 33, “Choose ye this day.” And whose words do you hear when he says that?

John  Bytheway: 00:11:15 Joshua.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:11:17 Yes. I love that. John, I’m like Joshua knew Enoch’s words. It’s as if he knew him, right? “Choose you this day to serve the Lord God,” and then here’s that identity again, who made you who you are, who you are. “Behold, my Spirit is upon you, wherefore all thy words will I justify.” Ann Voskamp will write, “The Lord ends with that walk with me.
Here’s Ann Voskamp, she’s not a member of our Church, but a great Christian, but she’ll say, “Be vulnerable enough to let the brokenhearted love come and let it fill your emptiness. You never have to overcome your brokenness to claim God’s love. His love has already overcome your brokenness and claimed you. Grace doesn’t ever negate transformation, it always initiates it.” She quotes this, she’s on an airplane and sitting by a rabbi, and he said, we always talk about a strong belief in God, and then he says, who sits with the knowing that God’s belief in you is even stronger than yours in him.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:12:29 Every morning that the sun rises and you get to rise, that is God saying he believes in you, and he believes in the story he’s writing through you. God’s mercies are new every morning, not as an obligation to you, but as an affirmation of you. Reading that brought me so much peace after many days. I’m not the kind of mother I want to be, I’m not relating to them in the way I desire to. I’m not who I want to be, and to have that son come up every morning, I believe in you, and in the story that I can write in the openness about your vulnerability, in the of your brokenness, I believe in you.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:13:19 And then what happens is we get this beautiful temple reference in verse 35, “And the Lord spake unto Enoch, and said unto him: Anoint thy eyes and wash them and thou shall see.” We were just talking, our daughter is going to be 12, going into the temple. This next year, she’ll be 12 and so she gets to start doing baptisms. And thinking about the temple, obviously she will not be receiving her initiatory ordinances yet, but I talked to her about how all throughout the temple it’s about seeing the beautiful promise there that we are anointed to see, to discern, to know truth from error and it’s the Holy Ghost that’s given to us as the great guide, as the Great Comforter as the great teacher of truth in that process. And I am sure this is a reference to temple ordinances for Enoch, not unlike what happens to every prophet. With Jacob, right? At Bethel. And Moses and Abraham receiving temple ordinances, being anointed, to be able to see anew. And then verse 36, what is he called? A seer.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:14:36 And here he is a seer. That is how our prophets are. Now, aren’t you amazed in 37 and 38. I love that Scott Sorenson, that great religious education teacher, right? He’ll say, “Here was Enoch, he’s slow of speech. And then what we see, what happens to him is he was so powerful in speaking the words of God that no one could contend with him. They couldn’t help but believe.” And then his second one, “All the people hate me.” And then what the promise, the Lord gives him? “I will walk with you, I will be with you.” And then that last one, “All men were offended because of him.” And then we see he built Zion, the city of oneness and pure unity. So you see how the Lord, here’s the walls of Jericho, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:15:28 They’re afraid of the great walls as they’re coming in. We can’t go into Israel, it’s filled with these giants and huge walls. And what does the Lord say? Come in, he tears the walls down. They didn’t have to worry about taking the walls down, he tears them down. And here he’s telling Enoch, you say you’re slow of speech, that all the people hate you and that they are offended, and this is what I will do with you. I was really touched and to read a recent Ensign article at Liahona about, Spencer is his name, grappling with same sex attraction. And he describes just the pain of going to church sometimes. And he leaves after sacrament meeting and just said, “Lord, I just can’t go there. No one gets me. No one understands me. I feel so different.” And as he’s walking, he hears the Lord say to him, “I get you, Spencer.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:16:21 And you don’t need anything else, I get you, I understand you. You hear that assurance over and over again when right here’s Enoch, I can’t do all these things, I hear the Lord saying, but it’s me, I’ll walk with you, I will write the story of your life. I will make you so powerful, I will put words into your mouth, I will open your mouth. Isn’t the old Testament, just the stories are just all about incredible redemption, right? This story of redemption over and over again, what God will do, what he can can do. Okay. 39, 40, 41, 42, 43. We hear that phrase again. “My father taught me in all the ways of God,” and then 43, “That he is my God.” Here’s Enoch, he’s telling them their identity. The very first thing, “He is my God and your God, and ye are my brethren.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:17:16 These are the ones he was speaking to, right? Who have been hurting their own flesh and the will power, and doing things that were harmful to each other. And he’s saying he is my God and your God, and ye are my brethren. Then you hear President Nelson teach them and their identity and their purpose, that’s how we answer the questions.

Hank Smith: 00:17:38 I loved in verse 38, they said, “There’s a wild man, we got to go see this guy. You gotta come see this prophet. He’s saying crazy stuff.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:17:49 He’s saying crazy stuff. My husband is a convert to the Church, he joined at age 21 and grew up without any faith growing up. In fact, he would say his only exposure to Christ was Evangelicals on TV, and it was distasteful to him. And so that was all he knew, and then he’s walking on the campus of University of Texas, and then Gideons, that wonderful organization, hands him a new Testament that just has Psalms Proverbs in the Gospels. And he will never forget reading the Savior’s words. He didn’t know him to be the Son of God then, but what a teacher here, right? This woman brought and he says, right, no man condemn me, right? And Mike will say, as the missionaries find him, and they’re telling him about angels and appearance of divinity, he’s sitting there in that Institute building at the University of Texas at Austin. And he’s like, “They’re crazy.”

Hank Smith: 00:18:51 “A wild man has come to witness.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:18:52 Yeah, a wild man. And yet he would say, “I could not deny their witness.” Meaning they spoke with such assurance and the Holy Ghost bearing witness, he couldn’t speak against it. Even though in his mind, it’s like that’s completely crazy, right? And then going to Church and experiencing the fruits of the gospel, he couldn’t stop going after that first time of going, and this wildness became the most beautiful thing to us. I want that fruit, so is it possible to have that kind of joy? Is it possible to have that kind of life? And so Hollywood would see us as wild people, what?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:19:33 And yet it’s like the that the mommy bloggers, right? That New York Times piece that comes out at these women, not members of the Church, right? Who are just professionals who they’re kind of drawn to these Mormon Mommy, these mommy bloggers, why this life, the husbands and children and this caring relationship and this meaning. And it seemed so impossible and so foreign. It seemed like a wildness, and yet it was so beautiful, right? Can this be real? And the Lord’s saying, absolutely, this can be reality for you with me.

Hank Smith: 00:20:10 Yeah. It does say that. After he speaks to them, what is it? Verse 47. Enoch spoke forth the words of God, the people trembled, could not stand in his presence, something happened when he spoke.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:20:25 And here’s the guy who said, “I’m slow of speech.”

Hank Smith: 00:20:28 Right.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:20:28 Are you kidding me? Now, we get to go next to verse 49. And I think this is important to talk through. “Satan had come among the children of men.” This is Enoch teaching the plan of salvation. He’s saying, “Adam fell, and by his fall came death, and behold Satan had come among the children of men and tempted them to worship him,” right? He’s always just pulling us away from who we are. And then men have become carnal, sensual, and devilish and are shut out from the presence of God. And I think we have to carefully look at that verse for a long time, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:21:00 Christians would say, “We are so carnal, sensual, devilish that this is unsurpassable … We cannot know the holiness of God. And this gap between us is so great, it’s impossible to come to know Him or be like Him.” And that’s not what this verse is saying. I think this verse is saying, what we learned about in Section 93, that as soon as we choose to go against the light, right, then light is taken … We deny the light. And so we effectively, we have agency, but when we choose to not use it in ways that lead to truth and light, according to the truth, we give away our ability to exercise it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:21:46 And part of the trap of transgression and sin. This is so true for all of us, it’s certainly true for me, is that we begin seeing the world … When we sin, we begin seeing the world in ways that justify our transgressions and our sins. We find ways to justify why we did what we did. We find ways to blame others, or our circumstances, or our genetic tendencies, and so on. And what happens is that we lose sight of the extent of our responsibility for our transgressions. And when we lose sight of that responsibility of our agency, we lose sight of the need for repentance, and we lose sight of the need for the Savior. And so it’s so interesting, right? This don’t feel shame about your reality, and also be honest about it. Be honest about it because I can’t help or heal you, but that’s what the Lord does, is he restores sight to us, and breaks us free from the corruption of our justifying hearts.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:22:47 You see Adam and Eve do it. “She brought it to me and I partook.” And, “Satan came and tempted me and I partook.” And this displacement of responsibility is so natural to us. I think that’s what it’s talking about when we become carnal, sensual, and devilish. We want to cover, John as you said, “We want to cover our sins,” quoting Section 121. And the Lord doesn’t shame us and say, “See, you’re hiding. You’re right.” He says, “Come. Be honest about what you yourself know. I am your Advocate. I am a Consoler and I speak the truth. Come be honest about it. And I will heal you a new heart I will give you. I will break you free of the bondage of the lies about both the sin and the justification of your sin.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:23:39 So it’s a real thing, that need for full-on change, right? And does he teach us that change is possible? Just think of water to wine, and leper to clean, and blindness to sight. And Alma changed, and the sons of Mosiah. And just the whole story of Christ is not only … His gospel is a gospel of change. And it’s founded on that honesty about one’s self in that process and his ability to give us a new heart, new eyes, new mind, new breath, that is like him breaking us free from the bondage of that.

Hank Smith: 00:24:23 The answer is repentance. That’s Verse 50, 52-53.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:24:30 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:24:31 It’s 57. The answer for carnal, sensual, and devilish is, “So God told us all to repent.” And it’s everyone. All men. All men, all women.

John  Bytheway: 00:24:44 I appreciate that earlier you quoted President Nelson talking about repentance as a process. I think that that was something I had to learn, and maybe even unlearn some things I had thought before. Because of the idea, oh, if you repent and sin again, all the former sins return. I felt like it was this one time thing, and if I didn’t do it right, it all comes back and it’s all over. And we tried to have a discussion about that verse last year, talking about the doctrine of covenants. But over and over again, we are seeing and hearing from living prophets. Repentance is an ongoing process, a daily … what did President Nelson say? A daily thing. And that if you might think I repented, but I guess I didn’t do it right, because I sinned again and all is lost. And that’s what I worry about. No, no, no, no. Just keep getting back on course.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:25:55 You remember getting baptized and that feeling of, I’m never going to sin again. I’m clean.

John  Bytheway: 00:25:59 Yeah, I’m done. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:25:59 I’m never going to … Right? And then within five minutes …

John  Bytheway: 00:26:03 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:26:04 … I’ve done something that I know isn’t quite right. And misunderstanding what baptism is, not the gate to perfection. Either you’ve messed up and now you’re off. Right? But that is the pathway of repentance. It opens us up to that pathway of metanoia, right. Of continual renewal, of being changed, of being taught, of seeing the world different again. And the Adversary, he is always shaming us. That’s what it’s all … The Great Accuser, his whole thing is to say, “See, you’ve sinned. See you’ve done it wrong. See this is who you are.”

John  Bytheway: 00:26:41 Those nicknames are juxtaposed–Advocate and Accuser. I’ve always thought, “How interesting, one accuses, one advocates for us.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:26:49 Yes. So true, John. And the Advocate is not covering us from it, right? It’s not hiding. It’s not saying, “Oh, it wasn’t so bad! It’s not the Savior saying, “Oh, it’s not a big deal.” He never says that. He says, “Come, don’t be afraid of it. I have the power to heal. I have redeemed it already. I will teach you. I will enable you to see this differently so that you become a new being who doesn’t want that sin anymore.” Article of Faith, #4 right there, right?

John  Bytheway: 00:27:21 Yes.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:27:21 Our kids, I’ll say, “Okay, here we are again, it’s Article of Faith number 4.” We start with Adam. And then here we are with Enoch, and then we’re with Moses. And then we’re with Abraham. And we’re taught every single time. We’re taught the same absolutely beautiful doctrine of Christ every time. And here it is, repent. “First believe and repent. Be baptized in the name of mine Only Begotten, who is full of grace and truth. And then ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And whatsoever ye ask shall be given you.” That’s that path, that beautiful covenant path of repentance.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:27:58 And so President Nelson said … you remember last [General] Conference when he opens and he says, “I want you to listen for three …” I invite you. He doesn’t ever use the word want. He says, “I invite you to listen for three things during this conference, pure truth, the pure doctrine of Christ, and pure revelation.” And in that verse, 51-52 we’re given the pure doctrine of Christ. And then President Nelson says, “The pure doctrine of Christ is powerful. It changes the life of everyone who understands it and seeks to implement it in his or her life.” So that covenant path, right, is that believe, repent, renew that covenant, receive the healing love of the Lord in your life, his healing blood through baptism, be given the gift of the Holy Ghost over and over again.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:28:46 It’s interesting, as we talked about, Hank, at the beginning, this idea of children and relationship. Parenting from relationship, instead of role. The list of things I do, instead of a list of things I do to this child, it’s a relationship with them. But it’s interesting that mothering, we know from the very beginning, an infant cannot grow outside of relationship. That brain develops, that soul and body develops from within a relationship. And it’s this mother responding to infant, infant responding to mother, and it’s this incredible process. And we can watch the brain develop. Now technology enables us to do that. But it confirms that we cannot grow outside of relationship.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:29:27 And so we’re sent away from our heavenly parents. And what do they teach us about in being sent away? Covenants. What are covenants? They establish a relationship. They affirm and confirm our connection that the Redeemer made himself at … We talk about being at one with Him, but He made Himself at one with us in a relationship, that from which we can grow and we have to have it. We have to have that relationship just like a child does, cannot grow outside relationship. We have to have it to affirm, confirm to us that we belong and are part of. And you are safe to be honest. You are safe to be vulnerable. You are safe to be open about your sins and weaknesses. You are safe to not hide from me. And in the moment you do, I am here. I am ever with you and I will enable you to grow. And so they send us covenants. And what’s the promise that comes with the covenant of baptism? The gift of the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:30:39 We renew it every single week. And it’s the assurance of his presence, the divine presence with us. Who is He, the Holy Ghost? He is the Comforter. He is the Consoler. He is the Teacher of all Truth. So he’ll be teaching us. He’ll help us see ourselves honestly. He’ll help us see others honestly and truthfully. Like your mom was helping you see your dad, John. I love that. Right? There’s the Holy Ghost helping us see things honestly and truthfully, and consoling us in that process. And we grow, and we grow, and we grow. And it’s that beautiful process of the doctrine of Christ. How he says here, President Nelson, “It changes the life of everyone who understands it.”

John  Bytheway: 00:31:22 And I think that it can be easy because we can make a quick list of faith, repentance, baptism, to make it sound like a checkbox list. But all of those are an ongoing process. Growing faith in Christ. Can I say that baptism is an event. I can point to when I was baptized. But the process of being born again is ongoing, right? And the process of following the Holy Ghost in my life is ongoing, and the Lord has arranged it so that every Sunday I am going to come back to the sacrament table and continue the process.

John  Bytheway: 00:32:02 So it’s helpful for me to see the first principles and ordinances all of them as a process, even though it sounds like you might say baptism is an event. Well, it is, but Elder Christofferson talked about the ongoing process of being born again. It’s kind of like, maybe this is a bad comparison, I can have a temple wedding, but do I have a celestial marriage? A temple wedding is an event. A celestial marriage is our ongoing process of making it celestial, having the Holy Spirit of Promise touch us, and anyway. So I’m glad we’re bringing this up, but I want to think of the first principles as, all of them as an ongoing process.

Hank Smith: 00:32:50 Enoch uses some interesting pedagogy here, because he tells them the first principles and ordinances. And then he says, “Adam had a question for the Lord.” And it’s almost as if he’s answering the question his audience might have, which is, why? Why do I have to do these things? Why do we baptize? So he says in Verse 53, “Our father Adam spake unto the Lord and said: Why should men repent and be baptized?” Almost as if his audience is like, “Hmm, I had that same question. I’m glad Adam had that question.” Then he said, “Okay, well let me tell you what the Lord’s answer was to, ‘Why do we have to do these things?'” And he gives him what he calls in verse 62, the plan of salvation. Right? “Unto all men.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:33:40 And the Lord’s saying you are conceived in sin. Meaning you have to have a predisposition for sin, right? Hormonally, and physiologically, and all of those things, so that you can taste the bitter to know to prize the good. And all these emotions that we have that make our lives hard in a sense, right? Do we have to have these sexual inclinations? They’re really hard. And they start when I’m this young, and I’m not going to get married for … What in the world is that all about? Right? Or all the things, like my anxious personality, my super conscientious, anxious person. I tend to be like, “Why do I have to have this predisposition towards that temperament?” You know? And yet it’s the way we can experience the truth and prize the good. And that we need to be born again.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:34:28 So it’s so interesting that Elder Christofferson … Do you remember him telling the story about that mission president? It’s very powerful. He describes this mission president who says, “I fell into a dream in which I was given a vivid panoramic view of my life.” This is a good man, right? Like he’s a valiant person. “I was shown my sins, poor choices. The times I had treated people with impatience, plus the omissions of good things I should have said or done. A comprehensive review of my life was shown to me in just a few minutes. I awoke, startled, and instantly dropped to my knees beside the bed and began to pray, to plead for forgiveness, pouring out the feelings of my heart like I had never done before.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:35:13 Then he says, “Prior to the dream, I didn’t know that I had such great need to repent. My faults and weaknesses suddenly became so plainly clear to me that the gap between the person I was, and the holiness, and goodness of God seemed like millions of miles.” And then he says, he felt so grateful for a Redeemer who would offer that to him. He said, “While I’m on my knees, despite my feeling so unworthy, I felt God’s love and mercy that was so palpable.” And that’s the two parts we have to hold together that are hard to hold together. But it’s Adam’s question. Really? Like we need to repent, right? And the Lord’s saying, “Yes, the quest is to become like we are. And that is holiness. You wouldn’t want anything less, “Nothing less can be in my presence.” As Elder Christofferson recently described, he said, “Any corruption,” and quoting Hugh Nibley, “Any corruption would corrupt eternity.” It would spoil it. It can’t be there. And so we have to be changed completely. And we hold together that need for absolute change and the promise that it is possible with him, and his absolute love and mercy. That’s what covenant means. “I will never leave you. I will never leave you. I am here beside you.”

Hank Smith: 00:36:38 It seems to me, in 53 Adam asked the question, “Why do we need to repent and be baptized?” And the Lord starts in the beginning. He says, “Listen, I wanted you to be born the way you were born. I wanted you to become mortal. I wanted you in this situation so you can grow up and taste the bitter, and prize the good. I want you to be an agent to yourself.” Verse 56. “I want you to have the freedom to choose.” So all of this is, everything that’s happened so far is really good, but I don’t want you to stay that way. I don’t want you to stay carnal, and sensual, and devilish. I want you to experience it, but not stay that way. So here comes verse 57. “So now repent. So you can learn all the lessons from mortality, be cleansed from the problems of mortality and come back to me educated.” Right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:37:33 Yes. Yes. That’s right. This is an educational experience, right? It’s helping us taste bitter to know to prize the good. Learning, growing, with that covenant relationship assuring it.

John  Bytheway: 00:37:46 Can we look at a phrase that I want to make sure we clarify for our listeners? In Verse 55 it says, “In as much as thy children are conceived in sin …” Now it’s not sinful to conceive children.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:00 Right. And this has been interpreted that way, right?

John  Bytheway: 00:38:03 Right. It can be. Or that, “Oh, I guess sexual behavior then is sinful.” No. What do we think that means when … I’ve always tried to explain. Maybe it means coming into a fallen world.

Hank Smith: 00:38:20 That’s what I would say too.

John  Bytheway: 00:38:21 Is that what you would say?

Hank Smith: 00:38:22 Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 00:38:22 Okay.

Hank Smith: 00:38:23 Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 00:38:23 You’re conceived-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:23 It seems like-

Hank Smith: 00:38:23 And as much as children are born into a fallen world.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:38:28 With predispositions or vulnerabilities, right, that would incline us to doing things, to tasting the bitter.

John  Bytheway: 00:38:38 Yeah. I remember Robert Millet once in a class saying, “Raise your hand if you are responsible for the Fall of Adam.” And nobody raised their hand. And then he said, “Raise your hand if you have been affected by the Fall of Adam.” And everybody raised their hand. And so I’m thinking, “All right, maybe that’s what this means. We grow up, sin conceived in our hearts. We are fallen also.” Gerald Lund talks about the Fall of man, and the fall of me. Each of us has our own fall. And then a phrase that you’ve repeated Jenet about 10 times today, which is one of my favorites, “They taste the bitter that they may know to prize the good.” This is just another Lehi saying, “There needs to be opposition in all things,’ and here’s why. ‘You would not know to prize the good if you had not tasted the bitter.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:39:30 Yes. Yes. And so it’s not a Fall, right? It wasn’t a mistake.

John  Bytheway: 00:39:34 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:39:35 Right? That’s what you’re saying. This isn’t a mistake. This is the plan.

John  Bytheway: 00:39:38 Right.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:39:38 To prize the good, tasting the bitter. Don’t you love how he emphasizes again? The fact is we’re susceptible to sin. That’s probably not the right word. It’s not predisposed. But we’re susceptible to it. Hormones, and physiological, and all that stuff, and genetics. We’re susceptible to it. And that’s being conceived into that susceptibility, if you will. But then there he says agency. Because what we can do, right, is we can say, “But I had to do it. I had to do that thing.” Right? And it wouldn’t make sense, if in fact the possibility of change is that magnificent. It would not make any sense if we didn’t have complete agency. Right? If we didn’t have the ability to choose otherwise.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:40:30 And so I love how this … Richard Williams, who talks about this so powerfully, but he’ll say, “We are in the process of being human. We are continually acting, accepting, rejecting, taking up the world, or a thought, or feeling. Accepting, or giving ourselves over to an idea or an interpretation, a mistake, a priority.” We’re always acting on what we’re picking up, what we’re holding onto, what we’re letting go of. Right? We’re always in the process of acting. And the Lord is teaching us how to become pure so we can use that agency purely in pure ways. It’s so powerful because it tells me why.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:41:13 Here’s Ty Mansfield struggling with same-sex attraction, and grappling with those issues, that reality in his life. And the narrative that the world gives him is, “This is what you must do to find happiness, Ty. This is the path.” The world offers all of us a narrative. You’ve got a predisposition towards addiction, or you’ve got this, and this is the narrative of your life given that. Or in this case, you have this reality of identifying as gay. And this is the narrative of your life. He’s singing in General Conference, fasted all day. Comes there at the end of his fast. He says the prayer. The prayer is said, and there is this flood of love all around as he’s grappling with, “What does this mean for my life? I love the Gospel. How do I live the Gospel? What does this mean?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:42:00 This flood of love and a vision of love. You read that story over and over again with individuals who, and all of us were given a narrative. The Lord says, “You are agents, and you may have inclinations or whatever to whatever things that can be a mix of both good and bad,” right? My conscientious nature can be great, and it can be a pain in the neck in some ways, right? But the Lord is saying, “I can write the narrative. I will write the narrative of your life, if,” as he told Ty, “Stay with me. Stay with me, Ty.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:42:40 So he will teach us to use our agency in ways that bring blessings. We are never trapped. We have agency, and so we can choose how we will relate to the realities of our lives. We have constraints, no question. We have limited choices. No question. We are never fully without agency to act in how we relate to those situations. So I’m so grateful for the miracle of agency. It allows us to have a story that is re-written every day that is a new narrative offered by Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:43:13 Yeah. I think it’s crucial then that we come back to what you said in 54, 55, “You are not a mistake. You are not a mistake. This was all done for a purpose. Now you’re an agent. That’s what I wanted. I wanted you to have your agency, and please use your agency to repent. Please. Teach your children to repent.” Yeah. Interestingly, he says, “Teach these things freely unto your children.” It almost seems like vulnerable or openly, just-

John  Bytheway: 00:43:50 Openly, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:43:51 Exposed, yeah. Teach it. Teach it to your children.

John  Bytheway: 00:43:53 Make sure they know.

Hank Smith: 00:43:55 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:43:55 Because shame is so big and real, right? I think in addressing the issue of sexuality, the fear of a child to come to their parents and talk about their struggles that way. I think because the adversary, his whole work is the accuser and to shame us, and to cause us to fear. You see that the woman brought to the Savior. She comes into that Pharisee’s home, and she washes his feet. You see Simon look at her, and he says, the Pharisee says, it says when he saw it, it’s like he’s even calling her an it. Then he says, “Do you not know who and what manner of woman this is? For she is a sinner.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:44:38 There is the Great Accuser, and I think our children, ourselves, right, I have this problem, I have this weakness, I’ve done this thing, and what we hear in our minds, “You are a sinner,” right? You are this. You are defined by this. The Savior says, he turns to the woman and says to Simon, it’s so beautiful, “Seest thou this woman. You have called her a sinner.” Seest thou this woman. She is whole before him, right? She is defined. Her identity is whole, defined already. She is a daughter of divine beings. Then he says to Simon, “Guess what? Her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. She was honest about her need, where you have been hiding your need.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:45:31 So beautiful when you heard on this podcast Steven Harper saying how he loves the phrase, “Relentless repentance.” Relentless repentance, right? It’s that I love repentance. Then he said something. I wrote it down when I listened to him on this podcast. He said, “Repentance is signaling to the Lord what we want him to do for us.” That’s what she is doing here. She is coming and signaling, ” I know you can. This is what I want you to do for me.” In that moment, right? Her sins are forgiven. Whatever that means, forgiveness, it’s her growth. She’s growing in Christ. She is coming into holiness. She is coming into greater purity. How the Adversary would say, “You are a sinner,” and the Savior, “Seest though this woman?”

Hank Smith: 00:46:24 Yeah, love that part of that story, because everyone sees her. He’s saying, “No, you see her, but you don’t see her.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:46:33 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:46:33 “You don’t see what I see.”

John  Bytheway: 00:46:35 Well, I loved what you said, Jenet, when he saw it, is that what we’re supposed to put on the other side and Jesus saying, “This woman,” that’s amazing. We’re all sinners. How-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:46:51 Yes.

John  Bytheway: 00:46:52 Yeah. It’s kind of like when John says things like, “And the disciple that Jesus loved,” I put in my margin, “Well, that doesn’t really narrow it down very much.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:47:04 Yeah. Yes, yeah. Isn’t that the truth? Yes.

John  Bytheway: 00:47:10 We’re all sinners, and he loves us all too. Anyway,

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:47:12 He loves us all perfectly. Oh, that’s so beautiful. So there we get to that, Hank. Just having that whole mindset, then it says, “Therefore, I give you a commandment, to teach these things freely unto your children.” It’s that, that story of repentance, the need we have for him, that being honest. The fact that we want to hide our sins, we want to cover them from the time we’re babies, right? He’s saying, “Don’t be ashamed. Come. Bring them to me. I am here to heal them and make you whole.” It takes a lot of practice to do that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:47:47 It’s why that structure and heart, Elder Anderson, he says, “If you’re not hearing the music of the gospel in your home,” and he says, “if the basses in the family choir are too loud and are overbearing, if the strings section in your family orchestra is a little too shrill or a little bit sharp, if those impetuous piccolos are out of tune, be patient. If you’re not hearing the music of the gospel, the good news, that path of repentance, that covenant relationship in your home, please remember these two words: keep practicing. With God’s help, the day will come when the music of the gospel will fill your home with unspeakable joy.” For Lehi, that music of the gospel is still coming about in his home, right? That music of the gospel in the plan for the redemption of all of his posterity, that music of the gospel is still being brought about in fullness in his home. We may not see it all in this life, but we will see it.

Hank Smith: 00:48:47 Yeah, that word freely is fascinating to me, because he could have said, “Teach these things unto your children. Teach these things freely unto your children,” just means so much to be open, maybe with them. Be honest. Be vulnerable. Let them know that you have not lived a perfect life, and that you’ve needed to repent. It’s okay to let your children know that, and that’s hard for me.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:49:12 It’s hard for me, Hank. I think it’s hard for all of us. Our natural inclination is not, right? As a parent, you’re supposed to have all the answers. You’re supposed to be the authority. You’re supposed to be these vulnerable children that you have the responsibility to save.

Hank Smith: 00:49:25 I remember my dad talking about the first time he ever smoked a cigar, right? I was like, “Dad, you smoked a cigar?” He’s like, “Oh yeah, I found my dad’s cigars, and I went and smoked cigars, and got so sick.” He said, “I thought I’d never do that again, right?” It was just a small little lesson, but it was good to hear. It was good to hear that my dad had been a dumb kid.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:49:49 Had been a human, right? Had been a mortal.

Hank Smith: 00:49:51 Had been a human, yeah.

John  Bytheway: 00:49:52 And Hank, I can throw in that my dad didn’t have a Word of Wisdom. He tried it in the Navy and just said, “Eh, I didn’t like it.” He tasted the bitter–Light of Christ, whatever. “Eh, I didn’t like it. Maybe some people do and have to give it up, but it’s just everybody comes from a different spot.” But that phrase, “Tasting the bitter that they may know the price of the good,” is so fascinating to me, because it almost sounds like they’re supposed to taste the bitter. You kind of don’t want to go there, but you think, no, I guess we really are supposed to actually say, “I don’t want to do that again. I did it, but I don’t want to do that again.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:50:40 Yes, which is why, as we’ve said before, right, that Elder Christofferson saying, “Ours is not a religion of rationalization or a religion of perfectionism. It’s this religion of tasting the bitter to prize the good. It’s a religion of redemption, redemption through Christ.” I thought a long time, was there any other way? This path of dependence on another’s holiness to make my holiness, was there another way? Could I have made my own holiness somehow? Just to think no, because it’s a plan of love. Redemption by love, and that holiness is the path of love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:51:24 Here this inexpressible love of a Redeemer, this is that. The plan of salvation is a plan of love where there is a Redeemer whose holiness and purity redeems us. Then we become beings of love, the whole purpose not being to become pure as much as to become beings of love who can be in the kinds of relationships that define heaven, because heaven is not so much a… Right? It’s a way of being in a relationship.

John  Bytheway: 00:51:53 I was listening to this chapter last night, just because in our day and age, I can tell my phone to read me a chapter, and it’ll do it, right? But the phrase at the end of verse 59 I thought was cool. “Enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come.” It’s like we get the words of eternal life in this world, but hang on, because we’re going to have the real thing in the world to come.

Hank Smith: 00:52:21 You’re going to experience it. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:52:23 Yes. This process is going to keep going on and on, right? This process of becoming purified, born again. It is interesting that if you think about the idea of being born again that is repeated over and over again in these verses, right? As you noticed in 59, and then again we have that talked about… I’ve thought about birth, right? You have Nicodemus saying, “Does this mean I need to come back into my mother’s womb and come…”-

Hank Smith: 00:52:50 And be born? Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:52:51 And be born? Yeah. I think just realizing, wow, when a mother is creating life, there’s that placenta that’s the source of blood for that life, and the water in which that infant is growing. So we see water and blood, and it’s all about creating life, not just the process of coming out, right? Do you remember Elder Christofferson, remember in [General] Conference when you were sitting there and he’s talking about the sacrament. He says, “I have spoken of receiving the Savior’s grace to take away our sins and the stain of sin in us, but eating his flesh and drinking his blood, that intimate, bringing it into our bodies in the sacrament is to internalize the qualities and character of Christ, putting off the natural man and becoming Saints.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:53:43 As we partake of the sacramental bread and water each week, we would do well to consider how fully and completely we must and have the opportunity to incorporate his character and the patterns of his sinless life into our being. So when we take the sacrament, it’s not so much I’ve done this, and I’ve done this wrong thing, and a time of shame, but a time to say he has offered me his blood and his body into me that I can become like he is. I can become that pure and holy. It’s that beautiful affirmation, and we’re honest about it. We’re honest about our needs, and he says, “I am here with you fully.”

Hank Smith: 00:54:26 Paul calls Christ the Father of our salvation at times. I think that might be here where you said, “He compares himself to a mother. You were born into this world by water, blood, and spirit. I want you to be born again by water, blood, and Spirit. This time, it’s not the blood of your mother, physical birth, but it’s going to be the blood of your father.” So when I see Christ being referred to as the Father in scripture, I often think of this verse, because, “I’m providing the blood in your spiritual rebirth, just like your mother did for your physical birth.” It was you, Jenet, who talked to us about the Savior often identifying himself in the feminine, right? “How oft I would have gathered you as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings.” In this regard being, “I am going to give birth, spiritual rebirth to you.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:55:22 Oh, that is so… Thank you. I love that pattern, Hank, a father and mother participating in the salvation, right? In this process of exaltation. But that’s how intimately we need the Lord. We need him as much as the placenta’s blood feeding, being the nourishment of life, and that water in which we grow, that’s how much… When the Holy Ghost is given to us, that’s what we’re promised. That divine presence with us always, that closely.

Hank Smith: 00:55:52 Baptism becomes the day you became his, right? Just like your birth when my wife held those little babies in her arms, this is the day you became mine. It seems like our baptism is the day we become his, born to him. The baptismal fount represents a womb, right? Immersed. Here comes this-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:56:19 So beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:56:20 … brand new child. We don’t slap you and say, “It’s a girl.” Right? But we-

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:56:25 Oh, yes.

Hank Smith: 00:56:26 It’s the idea of you’re born.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:56:28 I’ve started this pattern from a few years ago when a cousin, my mom’s aunt passed away. She had been raising, she was a widow for years, and was raising her daughter, who had had a severe illness when she was 18 months old and her brain did not grow beyond that date. So she was handicapped in that sense. So Ilene, she’s 68 now, I think. So when her mother died, she’d been sleeping in her mother’s room, and so close to her mother. The children, her siblings, were worried that when mom dies, what will Ilene do? How will this be for her?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:57:03 So they were sitting in sacrament meeting. She didn’t cry. Ilene didn’t cry through the funeral. She didn’t cry at all at the burial. She didn’t cry during that process, and so they just didn’t know what was going on inside of her. As they’re taking the sacrament that next Sunday where she had always sat by her mom and taking the sacrament, all of a sudden tears start coming down her face. Her sisters look over and say, “Ilene, are you okay?” I think feeling like, oh, all of a sudden it’s hitting her, mom is gone. She just said the words, “Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:57:40 I’ve thought I want, sitting beside my children as they take the sacrament, more than anything to know this beautiful ordinance is telling you Jesus loves me. He gave his blood and his body for me. He assures me of his desire to work out my repentance, my growth, my becoming. So I love that.

Hank Smith: 00:58:04 That’s beautiful, Jenet. In verse 60, it almost seems like the Lord is saying, “Leave it to me and the Holy Ghost,” right? “You repent. If you do the repentance and baptism part, then the Holy Ghost and I, we can justify you and sanctify you. That’s our role. You don’t have to worry too much about sanctifying yourself or justifying yourself. You do the repenting. The Holy Ghost will do the justifying, and I’ll do the sanctifying.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:58:30 I love that, Hank. Yes. Okay. 63 is that beautiful verse that says, “All things are created and made to bear record of me, but all things temporal and spiritual, in the heavens above and which are on the earth, and things which are in the earth and under the earth, all things bear record of me.” My father-in-law is not religious, but he loves nature and grew up… My husband grew up doing lots of things in nature with his dad. Mike will tell our kids, “Granddad feels close to God in nature.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:59:08 We have words of scripture. I just had this wonderful student, Spencer Bergen, write a paper about this. We have scripture where we learn of God, right? We say you’ll learn of God from the scriptures, but the Lord is telling us you learn of me where else?

Hank Smith: 00:59:22 Everywhere.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 00:59:24 Everywhere. “In Creation,”  Spencer wrote, “We yearn for something that can approximate the grandeur of God, and in nature, we find it. You stand there in beautiful places, the bottom of the Denali in Alaska, and all you can say is that it is grandeur.” It almost reaches God, right? It almost… Alma teaches us that, right? All things denote there is a God, upon even the earth and all things. So Spencer writes, “Order, grandeur, form. These are witnesses of deity that come from nature.” Aren’t those beautiful words? “Order, grandeur, form.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:00:10 Next week, when we talk about, or the next couple weeks we talk about Creation, why does he spend so much time in the temple teaching us about Creation? I am creating you. Spiritual creating and line upon line, and holiness upon holiness, and truth upon truth, and light upon light. In the end, it is good. It is complete. It is whole. So I just think all around us when we see creation, it is the story of our lives he’s bearing witness of. I am in the process of creating you.

Hank Smith: 01:00:43 My friend, Todd Parker, gave a devotional at BYU. He kept a list of just the creations around him that he feels like testify of Christ. He said, “Consider the seasons themselves as teaching about the Fall.”

John  Bytheway: 01:01:03 We even call it Fall.

Hank Smith: 01:01:04 Fall.

John  Bytheway: 01:01:06 And spring.

Hank Smith: 01:01:07 Winter. Right? Spring, this Resurrection and summer, right? He said, “The sun itself comes from the east. Christ will come from the east. The sun gives light and life to all things. Its heat can consume all things.” He says those who live in Arizona understand that. “It does both. The light of Christ gives life to all things. People whose lives are full of light will be saved by the light, as by fire.” He says, “The universe,” he said, “Consider hibernation. Every creature, every squirrel, insect, snake, or bear that hibernates and lies dormant during the winter appears dead. Each one that comes alive again in the spring testifies of Christ and his Resurrection. Every tree, every plant, every leaf.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:55 He even says, “When you go to bed at night, why do you go to bed at night? Because you’re tired? No. You symbolically die every night. Why do you get up in the morning and go to school, or why do you get up in the morning? To go to school? No. You symbolically resurrect every morning.” I remember asking him once, he told me, I think it was him who said, “Look at the 12 full moons of the year,” right? We have 12 full moons every year testifying that the sun is still there, even though you can’t see it, right? And we have 12 Apostles who testify that they can still see the son, even though we can’t, right? “All things are made to bear record of me.” It’s fun to look around the world around us, isn’t it? And to see symbols of Christ?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:02:41 Hank, that is… What a powerful list. As you were saying it, I was thinking that adds a whole new meaning to, “Teach these things freely unto your children.”

Hank Smith: 01:02:51 My wife consistently says to our kids, “There’s a spiritual lesson in that.” Everything. Everything that happens, right? Everything that happens. “I think there’s a lesson in that.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:02:58 Which they have to make fun of sometimes, right?

Hank Smith: 01:02:59 Oh, all the time.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:00 If they’re like my kids.

Hank Smith: 01:03:01 “Let me guess, there’s a spiritual lesson in this.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:00 They’re like my kids.

John  Bytheway: 01:03:04 “Let me guess, there’s a spiritual lesson in this.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:06 Yes. “Let me guess.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:06 64, 65 and 66 are Adam being taught these truths. And then what does he do? He cried unto the Lord, was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, carried down into the water, laid under the water and brought forth out of the water, and then was born of the Spirit.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:24 And I just think it’s so beautiful that, in this chapter, we’re not left with just the truths. We end with one who experienced it, did it, and how the voice of heaven says, “Thou art baptized with fire.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:39 I’ll never forget Elder Holland, at this last General Conference, when he talked about the first great commandment to love the Lord with all our hearts. And then he says, “The first great truth is that he loves us with all his heart, with all his mind, with all his strength.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:03:58 And then he said this: ” Of course, we are speaking here of the first great commandment given to the human family, to love God wholeheartedly without reservation or compromise, with all our heart, might, mind and strength. The love of God is the first great commandment in the universe, but the first great truth is that God loves us exactly that way: wholeheartedly, without reservation or compromise, with all of his heart, might, mind and strength.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:04:26 And then this is the important part that’s so beautiful. This is important for what we just read: “When those majestic forces from his heart and ours meet without restraint, there is a veritable explosion of spiritual moral power.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:04:45 Then, as Teilhard de Chardin wrote, “For the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:04:55 I was thinking about my need for change that all the students that I … Whether they’re grappling with who knows what; depression or struggles with family or dating, or whatever it is; and that need for power, that need for fire. And how he promises us here, “Your love for the Lord meets his love for you. And there is an explosion of spiritual, moral power.”

Hank Smith: 01:05:24 I kept thinking grateful, 24-year-old Joseph Smith gave us this. 24.

John  Bytheway: 01:05:30 Right. Right.

Hank Smith: 01:05:33 And this is just one chapter of so many.

John  Bytheway: 01:05:36 Genesis 5 is, what, 32 verses? This one is 68. And we get so much here.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:05:44 Rich, beautiful truth to bless our lives.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:05:47 So I think we have to talk about just a little bit, why parenting, why it’s not so easy? Just teach these things freely to your children and they’ll experience what Adam did. Jennifer Finlayson-Fife says this so powerfully: “Parenting is noble work because so often you are reaching through the dark, trying to figure out what it means to love this unique child, with their challenges, strengths, and desires, and how we need a big dose of self-compassion and compassion.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:06:20 We need, in that beautiful process of trying to teach these things freely to this child, as we talked about, infecting that relationship, in a sense, with our trying to have them be the evidence of our goodness, and when they choose a path that is painful to us, that rejects that goodness, we can experience it as them needing to reinforce us; instead of their journey tasting the bitterness, get curious about their journey rather than fearful of their journey.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:06:50 And I appreciate that.

Hank Smith: 01:06:53 I’ve noticed, as a parent, that when I try to force my children, I end up usually pushing them to the exact place I don’t want them to go.” 

Hank Smith: 01:07:08 When he says, “Teach these things freely unto your children,” there might be a sense of, “Teach, but don’t force these things upon your children.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:07:18 Yes. Yes.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:07:19 Isn’t it Elder Bednar who says, quoting that verse, “You can bring it unto the heart, but not into the heart?” And that is, Hank, you already said, “Leave this work to me.” He is their child, and this process of salvation has to be worked out with them as an individual.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:07:45 We seek the Holy Ghost as the teacher, we bring it unto their heart, in a sense. And when we don’t have the Holy Ghost with us, which is going to happen all the time, we have compassion with that process. And we return again, trusting his working out their salvation with them, not our responsibility for their salvation. Right?

Hank Smith: 01:08:08 So sometimes my lack of faith in him makes me want to take his spot. Right? “I’m going to force these things.” And I then foster rebellion and resentment in my children because I didn’t trust that the Lord would do his work with them.

Hank Smith: 01:08:27 Does that happen to either of you?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:08:29 You know what? I think they look at us and they’re like, “I’m going to see, do you love me, or do you love yourself in me? Do you love what you think is so true that you want this to be about your journey instead of my own?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:08:43 And so, if they’re smart, and we hope they are, they’re going to differentiate themselves from us and be like, “Now I’m choosing a different way, because I got to know, is this about me or is this about you?”

Hank Smith: 01:08:51 Yeah. And when a child is resentful, in my experience, when they grow up, they fight against the one thing that you, the parent, seemingly love most, which ends up being God and the Church, right?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:09:13 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:09:14 So, “I’m going to use this power that I now have. Because you are forcing me, I’m going to use my power to fight back against you.”

Hank Smith: 01:09:21 It’s a trap. And it’s based on fear, really, right? Fear that, “They’re going to make bad decisions, so I better force them to make good decisions.”

Hank Smith: 01:09:29 But God never does that to me. He’s never forced me to make a good decision. In fact, when you’re forced to make a good decision, it’s not even a good decision because you didn’t choose it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:09:41 Yes, that’s right. That’s right. If it’s not chosen of your own heart, it’s not going to bring the blessings. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:09:47 Hank, don’t you think … ?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:09:48 So if we come back to the beginning of this, I feel like what the Lord is teaching me is that I parent with faith in the Redeemer. That is unending. And that’s something I renew every day. I renew his faith in me and my faith in him for me. And I renew that faith in what he is going to bring about in the lives of my children. And when I am in that place, I am not in the place of fear and coercion and control.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:10:18 Now do I have to keep coming back to that? Yes. But he’s saying, “This beautiful teaching about repentance is starting with you. Your faith in me for you and your faith in me for them. And your faith in them. Your faith in their being able to work out this journey because of who they are.”

Hank Smith: 01:10:39 Often, when a parent comes to me with a concern about a wayward child, I almost always ask first, “What kind of person are they? Are they a good neighbor? Are they a good … ?” “Well, yes, they’re a very good person.” I’m like, “Well then, it sounds like God has their heart. The Church might not have their membership record, but God has their heart.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:10:58 Yes. Yes.

Hank Smith: 01:11:00 They’re good people.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:02 We can think the most important thing is doing those behaviors. And you’re talking about this heart, right? What a good person this is.

Hank Smith: 01:11:10 This is a good citizen. This is a very good child. “Well, is he a good neighbor?” “Yeah.” “Well then, I think you can trust the Lord on this, right?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:18 Yes.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:19 I think parenting, if we infused it with more compassion for ourselves and for them, it would just help us.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:27 And I think God is … When we learn about repentance, here’s the God, our Redeemer, saying, “My bowels are filled with compassion for you.” And I just know I need forgiveness from him for the things I didn’t know, that I didn’t know to do better, that I didn’t know yet, I didn’t understand.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:48 I love how Jennifer Finlayson-Fife say’s that, “We have to forgive life for its profound imperfection, for me as a parent for that child.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:11:56 And that is strangely where our spirituality is. Isn’t that amazing? It’s in that compassion, in that forgiveness, in having compassion towards ourselves in our flawed state, forgiveness and compassion for them, forgiveness for ourselves. And that is where spirituality is.

Hank Smith: 01:12:15 You also mentioned forgiveness.

Hank Smith: 01:12:17 Jenet, just before we let you go, there’s something to be said for, when you become an adult, forgiving your parents for being imperfect.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:12:28 Yes.

Hank Smith: 01:12:28 Because it’s so easy to look back and go, “Wow, they were terrible. And I have a lot of problems because of this or such and such that my parents did.”

Hank Smith: 01:12:38 And perhaps we don’t look upon our parents when we get to this stage of being a parent ourselves with as much compassion as we should.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:12:48 Hank, I love that you said that. I actually was going to write about this, because David Brooks at the New York Times just wrote about this epidemic of adult children cutting off their parents, saying, ” You failed me.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:13:01 And he’s talking about parents who tried. These weren’t addicts, abusive addicts who abandoned children. These are people who tried, who were trying. And I do think we have this epidemic of blame toward parents.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:13:16 And it’s Satan, right? Because it’s trying to tell people they have no agency; because of how you related to that, you’re locked into this.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:13:25 And I think it’s not the path of repentance for that child either, of healing. Because when we’re blaming another, we have given another power over our own journey with Christ. And he’s saying, “Come. This is all a journey for all of us working together.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:13:45 So I love that. Forgiveness and compassion for parents is the way to healing as a person yourself. It’s a more honest place.

John  Bytheway: 01:13:56 Yeah. I think you’ve got to get to a point, all of us, where, ” Okay, maybe mom and dad weren’t perfect, but here I am right now. I’m now accountable for my own life. I have agency. I want my kids to get to that point to say, ‘Okay, my mom and dad weren’t perfect.'”

John  Bytheway: 01:14:12 But I keep thinking of that talk that Elder Robbins gave about, “Take 100% responsibility, and … “

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:14:18 Yes. Yes.

John  Bytheway: 01:14:20 The idea of, “Yeah, your parents weren’t perfect. So? But now you are an adult.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:14:26 Yeah. And they weren’t supposed to be perfect. I think that’s the funny thing. Somewhere we got this idea, “They should love me perfectly and do things perfectly for me.” They’re just growing, they’re growing themselves.

John  Bytheway: 01:14:41 Like you just said, life is a journey.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:14:41 It’s this amazing messy journey. Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 01:14:43 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:14:45 Jenet, Dr. Erickson, this has been fantastic. Absolutely fantastic. And I can see myself going to my children to apologize and tell them that I’m going to need their compassion and grace.

Hank Smith: 01:14:59 I think our listeners would be interested in these two backgrounds of yours; this secular education in marriage and family life combined with your knowledge of the gospel.

Hank Smith: 01:15:16 What’s happened for you personally in your own marriage and mothering your own family?

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:15:22 Oh, Hank. Thanks for asking that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:15:24 I can tell you I woke up many nights after becoming a mother, and I’d been a professor before that, I taught about parenting and family life, and I would wake up and I’d say, “What was I teaching them? What was I telling them?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:15:37 Because I think I came into motherhood with this idea, the list of things I was going to do, and these little people who were going to just go right along with what I wanted and my working out their salvation. I knew all the right things.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:15:52 And it has been such an incredibly growth inducing and precious experience to have them and my efforts to parent them work out my salvation, and to learn the truth about, here’s my list of things, and yet this is all about the opportunity to know and love individuals at a most personal, deep, intimate level.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:16:16 And my list, my perfectionism, my behaviorism can come in and block my experience of them and our experience of Christ together. This is not me having them experience Christ my way. It is us experiencing the redemption of Christ together.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:16:38 My efforts to have them feel and experience the gifts of the Holy Ghost through my own repentant heart, my own heart that loves the fact that he has redeemed me and he is working with me and he will help me with them, and they’re experiencing that vulnerability and openness from me, just learning that instead of my list of things that I’m going to do and make happen in their lives has been such a journey of growth.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:17:04 And I’m still at the beginning, and so thankful for a Savior, whoever teaches me, “Jenet, this about experiencing the beauty of these people in your life and you together experiencing my love and my redeeming power. And everything else is just nothing. Anything that blocks that is not what you desire, is not what you want.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:17:29 Now, does that mean that it’s a friction-free life or that I’m not having to say, “No, you have to do this. This is important to do,” and there’s consequences and all of that? No, but it’s coming at it from a heart of faith instead of a heart of fear. It’s coming at it from a place of, “We are working on this together and there’s no way he’s going to let us down. There’s no way that we will not be within his hands the whole way.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:17:53 So my professional stuff coming into conflict with reality has taught me about the Redeemer and his beautiful plan for parents, that’s not a perfectionism plan, but a beautiful plan of redemption and joy in loving and experiencing, with all the rockiness to it, these precious people that we have the opportunity to be close to.

Dr. Jenet Erickson: 01:18:19 So I’m so thankful for the Redeemer. That’s what it’s taught me. I need him. We need him.

Hank Smith: 01:18:26 This has been a fantastic day, John. Good things.

John  Bytheway: 01:18:32 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:18:33 Good things. It was good for us to be here.

John  Bytheway: 01:18:35 Good for us to be here. I felt like you, Hank. I want to go tell my kids I love them and, “Sorry.”

Hank Smith: 01:18:41 Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 01:18:41 “Sorry.” We all need Jesus, including dad.

Hank Smith: 01:18:46 Yeah. Including dad. Mostly dad probably.

Hank Smith: 01:18:48 Well, thank you Dr. Jenet Erickson for joining us. Thank you to everyone who listened and stayed with us today or watched on YouTube. Thank you. We’re grateful for your support. We couldn’t do this without listeners. I guess we could, but no one would hear it. So we’re grateful that you’re here.

Hank Smith: 01:19:11 We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen.

Hank Smith: 01:19:18 And we hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.

Hank Smith: 01:19:26 Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media. Come find us on Facebook and Instagram. We would love it if you would subscribe to, rate and review the podcast, share it with your friends. That would be awesome.

Hank Smith: 01:19:38 Go to followhim.co, followhim.co, for any show notes, transcripts, any references you want. If you’re feeling up to it, you can read the transcript in French, Portuguese, and Spanish. So all of that is available to you absolutely free. Go to followhim.co to find all of that.