John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast. This has been great. I’ve been looking forward to Moses, Chapter 1. I love the vision he has, what he learns about himself. Maybe we can jump into Moses, Chapter 1. What do we need to know before we look at individual verses?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:00:23 Well, like we said, this is part of the Joseph Smith Translation. It’s this revelation Joseph receives. But I guess the question we need to ask ourselves is Where, and When does this happen? And, the answer is we don’t know, and we don’t know, but we have at least some clues as to the When. Where is … we know it’s an exceedingly high mountain. Is it Mount Sinai? I don’t know. I actually kind of guess so, but I don’t know. The When, we only have two clues. We have, when Moses is talking to Satan, he says … It’s in verse 17 … that God had talked to him inthe burning bush. So we know it’s after he sees God in the burning bush at Mount Sinai. All right. And then we get to verse 25 and 26, and he’s telling Moses you’re going to go and deliver my people out of Egypt.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:01:15 All right. So, it’s in between those two events. Now, that’s actually a really narrow time window because it is from the Burning Bush that Moses learns he’s going to go to Egypt anddeliver God’s people. And the next thing he does is he goes to Egypt and delivers God’s people. Now that process takes a little while, but it’s got to be somewhere in that narrow time window. I’ll tell you my theory that I think most people disagree with and that’s fine, they’re entitled to their wrong opinion. But so, no, I really don’t know, but I actually kind of expect or suspect that this might be at the burning bush episode. Like, this is the fuller version of that story, so that you get one version of it, kind of maybe a lower law, consumer version in Exodus 2 and 3. And then you get this kind of higher, in-depth version that gets restored to Joseph Smith here, where we learn all sorts of stuff.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:02:10 So that, that would have Moses when he sees Satan, because ashe has this vision, and this is also good background for it. He has a vision where he sees God, the vision ends, and then Satan comes to visit him, and then God comes back. So, he has two visions, just kind of like Abraham. He just had a nice chat with Satan in between. And so, when he is talking with Satan, he may be saying, when God called out to me out of the burning bush, just like a minute ago, when he called to me out of the burning bush two minutes ago, this is what he told me to do.

 

Hank Smith: 00:02:38 Okay. I think we’re ready to … I’m ready to jump in. We’ve got 42 verses here of never seen before scripture, this … How old’s Joseph Smith?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:02:49 He’s 24-1/2. Yeah. And this is the kind of stuff that most 24-1/2- year-olds can write pretty easily, so-

 

Male: 00:02:57 Yeah.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:02:57 Maybe I, I mean, this is really beautiful, profound stuff. If you’ve read anything that Joseph Smith himself actually writes around this time period, around 1830, he is not capable of writing this kind of beautiful, profound stuff. There’s no way, absolutely no way. It becomes far … It requires far more faith to believe that, than to believe that this is inspired, right? So, we get this introduction that he’s caught up in a high mount. And then I love verse 2, and this will be language we recognize similar to Abraham, Chapter 3, “And he saw God face to face.” But then we get some other incredible information in verse two. “And he talked with him and the glory of God was upon Moses; therefore Moses could endure his presence.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:03:49 This is this doctrine of transfiguration that we talk about. Apparently, our natures are so incompatible with God’s natures. His is so much more holy or full of light and truth than ours, that we cannot be in the same place together. We would make him unholy and we can’t withstand his presence, right? So this is going to be a fatal meeting for Moses if he stays in the same state he’s in, so the Spirit will temporarily change his nature, right? And that’s really powerful. And maybe we can jump and look at a couple different verses for a second, just to understand that better. If we were to go to the end of verse five, where he says, “No man can behold my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:04:40 If I read that correctly, I think what God is saying is, “Okay, I’ve changed your nature enough to see some things and to be in my presence. If I was going to show you everything, I’d have to change your nature so substantially you can’t go back,” right? You would no longer be compatible with the earth. And we actually get Moses kind of mini experiencing this later, not in this experience, but later when he is up on the mount. All of Israel is down below Mount Sinai, he’s up on the mount talking with God. And he is up there for a long time. When he comes down, he has to veil his face because he is still so full of light that the Israelites can’t take him. He’s too glorious for them.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:05:19 He’s been changed, I would guess, transfigured for so long, it’s not an immediate change back. It takes a while for him to get to be of this realm again. And, you get that a little bit when you look at verse 11, when he says, “But now my own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, but my spiritual eyes, for my natural eyes could not have beheld; for I should have withered and died in his presence; but his glory was upon me; and I beheld his face, for I was transfigured before him.” So, this iswhere we learn more about transfiguration than really any place else, that we have to be changed to withstand God’s presence.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:06:03 And that change seems to be exhausting. So you’ll notice that when God leaves Moses, he just falls to the ground and he can’t get up. We see the same thing happening with Joseph Smith. Inone of his accounts of the First Vision, he’s on his back when it’s over, and it takes a while. Yeah. Yeah. And we see it even when Moroni comes. Yes, Joseph Smith, he’s hopping a fence and he kind of passes out for a while and yes, he’d stayed up all night, but most 17-year-olds can stay up all night and still hop a fence without passing out all … I think that Joseph is exhausted from the change that has to come on him even to be in an angel’s presence.

 

John Bytheway: 00:06:42 Well, there’s the Sidney Rigdon example, too, Section 76, that … What did Joseph say? “He’s not as used to it as I am.” They practically had to carry Sidney out of the John Johnson Farm.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:06:55 Yeah. And I find that interesting. Joseph almost is saying, “I get transfigured so often I’m kind of … I’m good at this now.” It’s not as much a shock to his system is what I think. His system is not as shocked by being transfigured. It’s done this before. Moses sees God. He is … And let’s be clear, this is Jehovah because that’s who we interact with after the Fall. But we should understand, and this is really key for understanding the old Testament. I think this is really, really important. Jehovah, I think … This is the way I take it … Jehovah is Christ’s title when he is acting for, and in behalf of the Father. This is Christ when he represents the Father. So he doesn’t act as if he is Christwhen he is Jehovah, he acts as if he is the Father.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:07:44 We call it divine investiture of authority. He is acting for, in his behalf. That’s not uncommon in the ancient world. So in Moses’ day, if Moses is from around the time of Ramses the Great, which I suspect he is, Ramses the Great makes a treaty with the Hittites. There’s a representative that comes from the Hittites to interact with Ramses. He speaks as if he’s the Hittite king. He is treated like he’s the Hittite king. He has the authority of the Hittite king. Everyone knows he is not the Hittite king, but they’re going to act like he is. That’s the way things were done. And the same thing is happening here. Jehovah is Christ acting for and in behalf of the Father..

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:23 So we will understand this best throughout the Old Testament, if we do it this way, we keep in the back of our minds, this is Christ, but we think of it as the Father. That’s how Christ and the Father intended us to think about it. They intend for us to understand this as the Father speaking to us. It is through an intermediary, but think of it as the Father. So, that will help us understand this. And that will help us understand this chapter, because you’re going to have Jehovah speaking about Christ. Right?

 

Male: 00:08:54 Yeah.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:08:54 And, that seems weird unless we understand he’s speaking as if he is the Father.

 

John Bytheway: 00:08:58 You said it already, but I want to repeat it because it helped me so much. It’s probably been repeated by lots of people, but I think that Bruce R. McConkie said, “All dealings of God with man since the Fall have been through the Son.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:09:13 Yeah. And Joseph Fielding Smith too.

 

John Bytheway: 00:09:14 Yeah. And when I teach this to the students, I think, “Think of Jesus’ titles: Advocate, Mediator, Intercessor,” and then you kind of get that relationship. So, when the Father does appear, what’s he going to do? He’s going to say, “This is my Son.” So the baptism, Mount of Transfiguration and so forth, but thatreally helped me a lot, to get that idea of divine investiture. “Oh, it’s because he’s speaking for the Father because all dealings, since the Fall, are going to be through the Son.” So, I’m glad you said that and I think it’s really helpful. I love in the Book of Mormon when the righteous among the Nephites and Lamanites are kind of astonished and he’s like, “I’m the one whogave the Law. That was me.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:09 Yeah. Yeah.

 

John Bytheway: 00:10:11 “I was the one talking to Moses in the bush there. And so I’m not destroying a Law, I’m fulfilling it. That was me.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:11 Yeah. Yeah. And I guess while we’re on the topic, another thing that is helpful for people as they’re starting to study the Old Testament, and maybe most of our listeners know this, but there are probably a few who don’t and we should just makesure everyone knows it. When you’re reading the King James Version and you read where it says the word Lord and it’s in all caps. Usually the L is a big capital, and then the O-R-D is small caps. That’s the King James translators’ code for telling you that the name is Jehovah. In the Hebrew text, it reads Jehovah there. Out of respect for the Hebrew custom, which I guess I’m just breaking right now, but out of respect for the Hebrew custom of not using the name of the Lord, they didn’t write Jehovah. They wrote Lord, but they clued you in that says Jehovah by writing it with all caps.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:10:55 So when you read that there, just in your mind, insert Jehovah, but as doing so, think, “Oh, the Father being represented by the Son, but he’s acting as if he’s the Father.” So, I think those can help us understand the Old Testament. I mean, we could spend just hours, just on these first few verses. But let’s spend at least a little bit of time, where God’s speaking to Moses, saying, “Behold, I am the Lord God almighty.” All right? So, again, he would be saying … We don’t have it in the Pearl of Great Price. They don’t do the small caps. But, I would assume because Lord God is a common phrase in the Old Testament that it’s saying the same thing, basically saying, “I am Jehovah, God Almighty and Endless is my name, for I am without beginning of days or end of years; and is not this endless?”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:11:37 Now, I want you to think about what is the effect that all of this is having on Moses right now? First of all, he sees God face-to- face and God is so amazing and glorious that Moses can’t even withstand his presence without being changed. That’s got to be fairly humbling, I would guess. And if that’s not humbling enough, the first thing God says is, “I am Almighty. I’m Endless. There is no end.” I’m guessing this makes Moses feel fairly small, right? This is fairly humbling. But, note the next thing that happens, “And, behold, thou art my son.” Think all that’s implied in the parent-child relationship because children know,not when they’re infants, but as they get older, they know they can become like their parents. When Moses hears, “You’re mychild,” implied in there is, “You can become like me. Plus, you have a special favored relationship with me.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:12:38 So now, all of that humbling has also automatically turned into ennobling. And this is a pattern that we see in the scriptures. It’s a spiral and we’re going to see it … It’s in this chapter like three or four times, but God humbles and ennobles us, humbles and ennobles us. Right? Because if we get lifted up in our pride, we’re going the wrong way. So he has to humble us, but it’s bad if the cycle ends there. He then needs to lift us up, but in the right way. Notice how he lifts him up in relationship to … well, in terms of their relationship with each other. That keeps you going in the right way, instead of off in the way where it’s all about me.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:13:14 No, this is all about our relationship with each other. And then we have to get humbled again, because we start to think it’s all about us. And so he humbles us again, but then he’ll ennoble us, but he’ll do so in terms of this relationship. And that’s the beauty of the covenant. This is a pattern. It’s a spiral. Hopefully it’s a spiral going up and up. So it keeps happening again, but hopefully we go up and up. The covenant is designed to do that. Sometimes we call it the pride cycle or the idolatry cycle orwhatever else, but it’s really a covenant cycle where if we keep the covenant, then we recognize we’re getting our blessings from God. But sometimes, we start to think it’s because we’re really cool. So God has to humble us. And then we recognize we need God, gotta keep that covenant again.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:13:50 And then we get the blessings in the covenant and so on. So I think we’re seeing that here in Moses as well, because look how he keeps going through this pattern. We’re going to see it a little bit. “So thou art my son …” But now look, immediately, he’s going to slam him down again, I mean, so, “I’m lifting you up,” but he’s going to give him a little bit of a humility body slam … “Wherefore look, and I will show thee the workmanship of mine hands; but not all, for my works are without end, and also my words, for they never cease,” which I think my kids and my students think is true of me as well. But anyway, but, “My works without end, and my words for they never cease. Wherefore, no man can behold all my works, except he behold all my glory; and no man can behold all my glory, and afterwards remain in the flesh on the earth.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:14:32 That’s humbling, right? To say, “I can’t even show you everything I do. You’re not capable of it. Even when I change you, you’re not capable of it. I have to change you a lot more for you to get this.” But now look at the very next thing. “And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son.” So we’ll keep going. There’s more ennobling, but just think of those. One, again, my son knows him by name and he has something for him to do. That’s incredibly ennobling. But as if that’s not ennobling enough, “For thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; But there is no God beside me. …”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:15:16 Right? So, so again, “You are like my Son,” incredibly ennobling. Now, we’re immediately going to get back into the humbling thing though. “There is no God beside me, and all things are present with me,” meaning there’s no future, past, anything. It’s all present for him. The way Joseph Smith describes it is one eternal now. “For I know them all.” All right. So, just in those few minutes, we’ve seen this spiraling pattern go through a couple times. And, we all go through it. But then, “And now,behold, this one thing I show unto thee, Moses, my son, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee. And it came to pass that Moses looked, and beheld the world upon which he was created; and Moses beheld the world and the ends thereof, and all the children of men which are, and which were created; and of the same, he greatly marveled and wondered.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:16:10 Moses sees everything. And if we’re going to get back into this idea that everything’s an eternal now for God, I think what happens … And we have to use the wrong terminology here because we’re very much beings that live time. But, for a moment, and that’s not the right word, but for a moment, God allows Moses to not experience time, the way he doesn’t experience time. I mean, it’s pretty clear if he has this vision in real time, he’d still be having it right now.

 

Male: 00:16:38 Yeah-

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:16:39 It can’t be in real time.

 

Male: 00:16:41 Yeah.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:16:41 Yeah. He sees the future, the past. He sees the whole history of the Earth in an instant, right? So I think God changes his nature in at least the way that he can stop experiencing time, the same way God doesn’t experience time, to see everything. And then he’s placed back in time and he crashes, basically, because that’s where we get, “The presence of God withdrew from Moses, that his glory was not upon Moses; and Moses was left unto himself. And as he was left unto himself, he fell unto the earth. And it came to pass that it was for the space of many hours before Moses did again receive his natural strength likeunto man; And he said unto himself: Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:17:20 And I don’t think he’s saying, man is nothing at all. It’s nothing in comparison with God. Now, to really understand this, let’s put ourselves in Moses’ shoes. Moses, we don’t know, he’s maybe Ramses the Great or something, but he grows up in the heyday of Egyptian power. He grows up when you go to these buildings that they built. And they are still, I think, the most incredible buildings that have been built. They are jaw-dropping, amazing. The most powerful army in the world, Pharaoh is seen as semi- divine. And he has power and wealth and prestige like no one in the world today does, at least the prestige part, and it depends … I mean, if you adjust for inflation, then I think the wealth part is well. And that’s Moses’ view of man, right?

 

Male: 00:18:06 Adjust for inflation.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:18:07 Well, yeah, it’s been a little while of inflation. But, that’s Moses’ view of man. He thinks that man, and in particular, some men are really something. And then he spends a minute or two with God and he says, “Oh, I was wrong. Compared with God, man is nothing.” And this is important for us. I think sometimes as Latter-day Saints, we give ourselves a little bit of a watered down version of God. We like to think of Christ as our elder brother, which he is, but it’s actually not a scriptural term. It’s not the emphasis he gives. We like to think of this warm, fuzzy relationship, which is true.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:18:43 But we forget the might and the majesty and the glory of God, the kind of thing that, where he, or any of his angels who are lower than he, the first thing they always have to say to someone is, “Fear not,” because just seeing them is so darn scary. We underestimate the might and majesty of the being who we call father. And it’s wonderful to remember that he’s our father, but it’s also important to remember he is way, way, way out of our league, I mean, orders of magnitude greater than we are. But, because he’s our father, we can jump orbits.We can get there.

 

John Bytheway: 00:19:27 I love this. And I always … When I’m in Helaman and it says, “The nothingness of man,” or King Benjamin’s people, “They saw themselves in their own carnal state, less than the dust of the earth,” I’d love to say why don’t we use this for a Youth Conference theme? Why isn’t that printed on t-shirts, Man is Nothing. Moses 1:10.

 

Male: 00:19:45 That’s right.

 

John Bytheway: 00:19:46 Youth Conference 2022.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:19:47 And we’ll get everyone, a little band that says, “I am less than the dust of the earth.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:19:51 “I am nothing.” And I think we have to get that. And what I love that’s coming up is how Moses can hold the ennobling things that God says to him and the humbling parts and keep those together in a perfect way as he responds to Satan. But thank you for bringing that up, that he used to be in Egypt and theglory of Egypt and seeing all of that. And now he’s going, “Okay, man is nothing.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:20:19 Yeah. Yeah. If I were to take you to Karnak or Abu Simbel, you’d sit there and go, “Holy cow.” But then if I were to take you to God, which I can’t do, sorry. I can do the others, but not that one. But, if we were to do that, you’d say, “I don’t even know why I looked at those things. It wasn’t worth looking at.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:20:35 Can I ask you another question? I have heard-

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:20:38 Yeah. I’m in a good mood. Yeah.

 

John Bytheway: 00:20:40 I have heard that one of the etymologies of the name of Moses is that the Moses part is the same as Ramoses or Ramesses, and that Ramesses is son of Ra, and that Moses is son of no one. And which, if that’s true, it’s kind of cool that the Lord keeps telling him, “Thou art my son.” So, I wanted to know if that’s a reliable scholarship or not?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:21:10 So, for Moses’ name, it’s a little bit complicated. And I think sometimes we do a little bit more than maybe we can. So, in Hebrew, the name is Moshe. And they translated in English to Moses with this M-S-S route. It doesn’t have an S on end of it in the Hebrew route. But, the M-S-S is a really common ending of names in Egyptian. And it comes from a verb Ms. It means to be born, born of. So, Ramesses is born of God.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:21:45 It is quite likely though, that Moshe is the Hebrew … Like, when you take a name from one language to another, you just … things happen to it. So, Giovanni and John are the same names. We always do things with names, so is it possible that Moshe is the Hebrew? When you go through these changes from one language to another, is it from Meses? It’s possible. I don’t think we can be sure of that, but it’s possible. If it is, then I would suggest it’s probably not “son of no one,” because then you’d actually have to have something that says, “Of no one.” It means to be born. And he gets this name when she draws him out of the river, and what seems like maybe she hadn’t been able to have children of her own. This is Pharaoh’s sister, another pharaoh’s daughter, another pharaoh, another, a sister and a daughter of different pharaohs.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:22:40 She draws him out of the river, and so, I suspect if she does give him the name Meses, or having to do with being born, that she’s saying, “He’s been born to me.” And, in a way it’s implied of no one, meaning he’s come out of nowhere. This is just a birth, he just is born. So, it may be contrasting with that, so it does imply that he’s not particularly the son of Ptah or Ra or something like that. But, either way, I think it does have a significant tie into the fact that God is implanting upon him emphatically, “Do you know whose child you are? You’re mine.”And I think God would like to do that for every single one of us. “Do you know whose child you are? I am the Lord, God Almighty, and you are my child.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:23:32 Oh, I always imagine Moses at that moment, and I’m not inserting words in the scriptures, but I always imagine him going, like, in verse four, “Really? Me?” because what astatement that was from this being that is Almighty and Endless. And, I love that in one of the First Vision accounts, Joseph Smith said, “My soul was filled with love and for many days I could rejoice.” And maybe Moses, I think, would be having the same experience.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:24:04 Yeah. You get that idea as you keep reading. Yeah.

 

John Bytheway: 00:24:08 Yeah. And then having him say, “Thou art my son,” and it’s filling him with love. My scriptures are forever changed. I’ve written humbling, ennobling, humbling, ennobling next to these verses-

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:24:19 If you start looking for that pattern, you’ll see it all over in scriptures.

 

Male: 00:24:22 Yeah.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:24:23 And, it’s everywhere. Once you clue into that pattern, you’ll start saying, “Oh, Jeremiah, oh Isaiah, oh, ah, God’s doing that with all of us.” And he’ll do it in our lives. If you’re not in the midst of that pattern, there’s something wrong. So, don’t feel bad when you’re getting humbled, just look for the ennobling step. And the key there is to remember your relationship with God. That’s what it’s all about.

 

Male: 00:24:45 Beautiful.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:24:46 So, if we jump into the next part … I mean, this first part is key for understanding the next part. So the next thing, and we don’t have to read every word of this, but the next thing is that once Moses realizes that he is nothing and so on, like we’ve talked about, then Satan comes to him. And the first thing Satan says is Moses … Let’s at least read that phrase in the second half of verse 12. “Satan came tempting him saying: Moses, son of man.” All right, so notice the emphasis there, “Son of man, worship me.” And look at what Moses says. “And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory that I should worship thee?” So, notice what’s happened. First of all, when he says, son of man, he says, son of man, nothing, don’t give me that. I know who I am. I am a son of God in similitude of his Only Begotten.” But what’s more, “I’ve seen real glory and it’s not you.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:25:50 And, that’s key. I think if we want to … So, I believe, in my personal opinion, one of the reasons it was so important for God to restore this lost story about Moses is because it gives us a pattern, this symbolic story. It’s a real story, but it teaches us, symbolically, about how to avoid Satan. And if I’m understanding, President Nelson recently … I mean, Satan’s out to have us and we better have the Spirit with us to withstand this. So, one of the keys is … Well, there are two keys that are given here, that Moses is given the experience to withstand Satan. There are a couple more that we’ll get in a minute. But,the first two things we see is one, understand your relationship with God. And two, you need to have had enough experiences with God to recognize the counterfeits when you see it.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:26:43 So if we were to tie together a couple things President Nelson has been saying lately, he’s told us, “You have to have the spirit of inspiration. You have to have revelation if you’re going tosurvive spiritually in the last days.” In this last conference, he pleads with us a number of times, pleads with us, “Tune out the world, tune into God.” And I think at least part of the reason, and probably the major reason is Satan is trying to deceive us. The world is hurling ideas at us at a faster pace than we’ve ever experienced in the history of the world. We are bombarded so completely and frequently by the ideas of the world that we better be having these experiences with God.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:27:21 And my opinion, this is one of the major reasons for the new Children and Youth Program is because, to find out these goals of what God wants them to do, they have to have interaction with God. They have to receive some inspiration and revelation so that they have that experience, so that then, they can discern between the garbage the world is throwing at them and things that are really from God. And I’ll just tell you again, in my per personal opinion, the greatest trial our youth and our young adults are having right now is they’re so awash in the ideas and the teachings of the world, that it’s

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:27:56 … They’re really struggling with discerning between the world’s ideas and God’s ideas. It’s a plague. It is killing them spiritually, this inability to discern. And so often, they think that the world’s ideas are good and godly ideas and they’re not. And so they start to reject or question the prophets on all sorts of things, or the scriptures on all sorts of things, because they’ve beenconvinced by the world. And this is telling me the key is they need to have more experiences with the Spirit, so that when the wily ways of Satan come and hit you, you can say, “You know what? I’ve felt the Spirit before, and this isn’t it.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:28:28 Oh, it’s so good. President Nelson’s last talk, in General Conference, about giving the Lord your time, exactly this. He said, “If you’re getting most of your information from social media, if you’re spending more time there than time with the Lord, you’re going to get … You’re going to have a lot of trouble discerning the Holy Ghost.” And the new Children and Youth program … I’m so glad you said that. The idea of getting your goals, not from a book or a pamphlet that somebody else wrote, but getting it from your patriarchal blessing, from connecting with God. “You have a work for me to do, what is that work supposed to be for me?” That is exactly what it’s about. It’s asking more of us than getting our goals from a merit badge book or a personal progress book. It’s saying, “You get on your knees and find out what work God has for you to do.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:29:18 Absolutely.

 

John Bytheway: 00:29:19 Thanks for mentioning that.

 

Hank Smith: 00:29:22 Kerry, I’m just loving this, really.

 

John Bytheway: 00:29:24 This is so good. Yeah. That verse 13, I loved what you said. This is a textbook example of … I mean, he understands his nothingness without God, or … But he also gets, “I am a son of God. In fact, I am … he told me I would be like the Only Begotten.” And he holds those ideas perfectly together. But I love that in the new Aaronic Priesthood theme, the Young Men start by saying, “I am a beloved son of God, and he has a work for me to do.” So, it starts with that identity. The Young Women say, “I am a beloved daughter of Heavenly Parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:30:05 And that is just this starting point. If I get my relationship with God, some of these temptations can be put in such a light that I know exactly what to do next, or how to discern. I love how he says in verse 15, “I can judge between thee and God. I know exactly how to tell the difference.” And I’ve heard Hank talk about, “Don’t be confused about who your enemies are.” And I think what you were saying, Kerry, “If you’re so awash in social media, you don’t know who’s friend or foe, if you’re not very discerning.” This is great stuff.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:30:40 Yeah. If you’re going to be awash in social media, make sure that a whole bunch of it is coming from the Church. The Church has put great stuff out there, so get into that. If you’re going to get on social media, spend at least some of your time doing it in a way that you are experiencing that connection with God and the Spirit, so that then, when you get the next thing you click on and it’s not of God, you can tell the difference.

 

Hank Smith: 00:31:03 Kerry, I have a brother-in-law who’s in the Secret Service. And he has spent so much time with real money and counterfeit money that it doesn’t take him long to … He can just pick him out. He can pick out the real money and the counterfeit money. When I’m looking at, it all looks the same to me. He’s just … I like what you said there, you need to have enough experiences with God that you can, not only recognize God, but you can recognize the counterfeit.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:31:29 Yeah. And, Moses goes on with that. In the next verse, he says, “I couldn’t see God because he had so much glory, without being changed, but I can see you fine. So what’s … You’re not fooling me here.” And then, as you said, John, in verse 15, “Blessed be the name of my God, that his Spirit hasn’t altogether withdrawn for me.” So he’s not having the same spiritual experience he had before. And this is also really, really key for all of us to understand, but especially our youth and young, single adults, or young adults … I don’t care whether they’re married or not … that they need to understand this, that we all have spiritual highs. None of us maintain those spiritual highs forever. That, we don’t choose when the Spirit comes on as strongly, God chooses that, and when it’s the right time for it and so on.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:32:10 But, we need to remember it, that’s one thing. And you can see Moses is remembering when he felt the Spirit really strongly, but he also is doing that, which makes it so the Spirit doesn’t depart completely. So, as long as he has the Spirit with him, at least a little bit, he can remember what it was like when he felt it strongly, and he’s able to discern, and judge. And he’s not going to fall for Satan because God told him, “Worship only God.” So, then he tells Satan to leave. Get thee hence, Satan, deceive me not,” in verse 16. And then I love verse 17, and we made reference to it before, but let’s read verse 17 and 18 because they’re really key. “And he also gave me commandment when he called unto me out of the burning bush, saying: Call upon God in the name of mine Only Begotten, and worship me.” Now look at verse 18. “And again, Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:33:06 I love that line.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:33:07 I hope that’s all of us. I hope that’s all of us. I’ve got some more questions. I don’t know when I’m going to get them answered, but I’ve got some more questions, so I’m never going to stop asking. I’m never going to stop going to God. I’m not going to … So, go ahead and go to whatever news app you use or whatever else, that’s fine, but don’t stop going to God to get your answers. And if you have questions about the Book of Abraham or Joseph Smith and something you read about him, or about the church’s position on this social issue or that social issue, go ahead and search elsewhere, but don’t stop asking God. And don’t stop doing those things that keep the Spirit in your life, or you’re going to be deceived. You will automatically be deceived if you don’t have the Spirit with you and you don’t have experiences with God. You have to have those things, and so, whatever else you’re doing, make sure you’re doing those things so you’re not deceived, or you will be deceived.

 

John Bytheway: 00:34:00 Hank speaks about Laman and Lemuel and how they hadn’t had experiences with God. In fact, I love to ask my class, “What’s the difference between Laman and Lemuel and Nephi?” And because I don’t want them to just say, “Oh, they had a bad attitude.” No, let’s be more specific. What is it one Nephi 2:12, “They knew not the dealings of that God who had created them.” They didn’t have experiences with God. And that was the difference. And this idea, “I have other things I want to ask him,” and he even uses the word inquire here, in Moses 1:18. And what did Nephi say to Laman and Lemuel? “Have you inquired? Have you inquired of the Lord?” And I thank you for pointing that out.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:34:39 And they said, “No, we don’t do that.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:34:42 “No, we don’t do that.” And then, they, sadly, “Well, he doesn’t answer my prayers. He maketh no such thing known unto us.” No, he will, he would love to, if you will inquire, in his way and in his time. But anyway, this is … I love how this … We can connect other scriptures to this. And I’m just sitting here thinking, “Okay, like Joseph Smith wrote this.” It’s too amazing, too profound. And what year are we looking at? 1830?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:35:12 Yep, June of 1830. And then notice what continues to happen. So he’s already told Satan to leave once. He tells him at the end of verse 18, again, “Depart hence, Satan.” And then Satan starts to cry with a loud voice, and he commands Moses to worship him again. Just telling Satan to leave didn’t do it. Satan’s pretty powerful. And, look at verse 20, “And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly.” I mean, Satan is powerful enough that even though Moses has seen and had this experience with God, when he sees Satan in his full nasty power, it’s scary. And then, when he starts to feel fear, then it gets worse. “And as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell.” But note the next part, “Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying” depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the Godof glory.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:36:10 Now I see actually, a really strong tie between that and the First Vision experience that Joseph Smith has, because the first thing most Satan seems to do is to make noises and different things like that, to kind of make him afraid. And once he starts to feel this fear … And we’re all going to feel fear. All right? I mean, there’s no way for us to just say, “I’m never going to be afraidever again.” We’re all going to feel fear. But once he feels that fear, then Satan can really start to oppress him. And it gets to the point where Joseph Smith thinks, “I’m not going to survive this. This is too much and I’m not going to survive.” But even with that thought, he doesn’t stop calling on God. He keeps praying and asking God, and the first deliverance isn’t the light and Satan’s gone. The first deliverance is that he gets hope that he might survive and he keeps praying.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:36:58 All right, that’s for Joseph Smith. Satan’s not just gone immediately for Joseph Smith, Joseph just keeps calling on God. And then he’s given the ability to keep calling on God. And that seems to be what’s happening here. Satan is getting scary for Moses, but Moses doesn’t give up. He keeps praying, even though this is lasting longer than he thought it would, even though this is worse than he thought it would be. It’s scarier than he thought it would be, and he’s done the stuff that hethought would get rid of Satan, and it hasn’t gotten rid of Satan, but he’s not going to quit calling on God.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:37:30 There’s a lesson in there for us, for whatever is oppressing us, addiction, depression, temptation, whatever it is, it’s often longer than we think it is. It doesn’t leave when we think it should. We got a priest at a blessing. We called on God, whatever. It doesn’t go away like we hope it will. The key is to keep praying. And sometimes, the deliverance that comes is the ability to just keep praying, to keep turning to God. Eventually, the deliverance will come, as it did for Joseph Smith, and as it does for Moses.

 

John Bytheway: 00:38:00 I’m thinking of Section 50, again, “Continue in God,” all of the things that that can mean. You continue to pray, you continue being a disciple, which means constant course corrections. Right? I wanted to ask you what you thought about verse 19? I mean, it sounds like Satan is having his own identity crisis saying, “I am the Only Begotten, worship me.” I thought, “Wow, what a chilling moment that must have been.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:38:25 Yeah. Satan relies on deception. My opinion is he relies on self- deception more than anything . I think Satan is so self-absorbed, that’s what caused his problems in the first place. And it’s what continues to cause his problems, and he deceives himself, and most of us do. We like to deceive ourselves when we’re being selfish and not following God. And then we want to convince others of that same deception. And I think that’s exactly what’s happening here. Satan is desperate to convince Moses of something that isn’t true, although, I suspect that Satan is starting to believe it himself. I don’t know though, I’m just making that up.

 

Hank Smith: 00:39:05 I think so too, Kerry, self-deception. But, I would encourage everyone to read a talk from Elder Holland called, “Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence,” where he talks about this experience Moses has. And one thing he says is … “One message he gets is, don’t let your guard down. Don’t assume that a great revelation, some marvelous illuminating moment, the opening of an inspired path is the end of it. Remember, it is an over until it’s over.” And he goes through saying, “Satan’s going to try to get his licks in.” So just remember that, that we have these incredible spiritual experiences and don’t be surprised when afterwards, here comes the adversary to challenge that experience. So he comes before with Joseph Smith. He comes after with Moses.

 

John Bytheway: 00:39:53 I think that’s a pattern. I think in 3 Nephi, when the sign of the Savior’s birth had been given immediately, there was this spin machine that Satan started up to try to explain it away. And there’s that pattern, “Great spiritual experience? Okay, expect, Satan’s going to try to diminish that, reduce it, spin it,” something like that, and that’s a pattern.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:40:17 So, with that same pattern, let’s look at what happens because Moses, we saw at the end of verse 20, Moses, who’s going to keep calling on God. Satan’s going to get more upset at the beginning of verse 21, but Moses received strength. This is that part we were talking about. And we saw it with Joseph Smith as well. He’s given the ability to keep calling upon God and this time he’s going to say, “In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan, and it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.” This still isn’t going easy by the way. “And he departed, henceeven from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not.” So, the fact of the matter is, we can do everything right, but without the power of Christ, we’re no match for Satan. If you think you can go head to head with Satan and win, you are crazy.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:41:03 You’re just flat out crazy. This is a battle you are not going to win. If you want to go against everything that the world is going to throw at you and find your way through this life on your own, you’re going to lose. The only way you come off conqueror is if Christ is there backing you up. That’s the only way you defeat Satan. You’re not powerful enough on your own, but with Christ, you are. Kind of reminds me of this time, where I had a son who was in Sixth Grade and a son who was in Kindergarten. And the Kindergartner was out on the playground after school, they were waiting for something. And so he was playing on the playground and some First or Second-Graders kind of started to pick on him a little bit, and he wasn’t sure what to do.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:41:46 And then his Sixth Grade, big brother shows up and problems are over. Sixth Graders are a lot bigger than First or Second Graders. Problems are over. He’s okay. I mean, no one had to get hit or anything like that, but it just ended, when your big brother’s there and he’s more powerful. This was a battle the Kindergartner wasn’t going to win. He didn’t have to win. He just had to have his big brother show up. And that’s what happens for Moses. We are not going to beat Satan, but if we can get our Big Brother to show up, battle’s over. And that’s a powerful thing that Moses learns here and that we can all learn.

 

Hank Smith: 00:42:20 I love it, carrying that determination. “I will not cease to call upon God. I don’t care what happens, I will …” Yeah, that determination of, “I will win this eventually,” to anybody who’s battling addiction or anything.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:42:36 Right. Right. It takes both his determination and God giving him strength to be able to press on in his determination. And then later, deliverance comes. Don’t think it’s going to be overnight, the deliverance comes. You just have to first buckle down and then get some strength from God to keep buckling down. And Satan is going to have some small little victories in the middle of there. He’s scaring the dickens out of Moses through all of this.

 

Hank Smith: 00:43:01 I mean, even if this was just the one chapter Joseph Smith gave us … I mean, it’s one of hundreds, but if this is just the one, this is amazing, just this one chapter.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:43:11 Yeah, I agree. And especially when we get to the end, I mean, Moses 1:39 … “We’ll get there … I think it’s the most profound verse. It affects the way we understand every other verse we read. So, we’ll get there. In fact, we’re going to start to get there pretty quickly, because what we get is verse 25, Moses calls upon God and God comes back and he says, “Blessed art thou, Moses, for I, the Almighty, have chosen thee.” And this is when he tells him he’s going to deliver Israel out of bondage. And then verse 27, I find this so interesting. “And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold discerning it by the Spirit of God. And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as thesand upon the seashore.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:02 Now, we already read in verse 8, that he saw everything in everyone. But somehow, here, he sees more of everything and everyone than he saw in verse 8. So, however great verse 8 was, God has actually even more in store for him. That’s incredible to me. It just gives you a glimpse of how much we’re not getting, but something to look forward to and how much we will get. So then, after all of that, and he’s seen all these things, Moses finally has the chance to ask the question he wanted to ask. Remember, that’s what … He’s been wanting to ask God another question.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:44:35 So he finally does. He asks him two questions in verse 30. “And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them?” So basically he said, “Why and how did you make these things?” Now, God’s answers are really interesting. And I think there’s something we often don’t notice here, but I think is significant. So, let’s look at the answers. All right? So verse 31, again, Moses has to be transfigured so he can withstand being with God. And then note, once we learn it’s transfigured, God answers him. And he says … He answers the first question. The first question is why? And note his answer for the first question. “For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me.” Basically, it says, “I’ve got a really good reason and I’m not telling you. Yeah, this is for me to know and you to find out.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:45:27 So, he is going to tell him. In verse 39, he answers the question. So then, I ask myself, “So, why doesn’t he answer it right away?” And, the only thing I can come up with, the assumption I make is, “Well, he must not be able to understand the answer he gets in 39 until he gets the information in between. But somehow the information in between makes it so he can understand the real answer better.” So, he tells him, to begin with, “I’ve got a really good reason, I’m not telling you right now. Let me tell you some other things.” And then he gives him the answer. So, this stuff in between, I guess we need to know. And the first thing he tells him is the answer to question number two, how he created the world.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:46:07 Now, he could have given him a geophysical answer, an astrophysical answer, a molecular answer, a subatomic answer. There are all kinds of ways, a geological answer, there are all kinds of answers of how he created the Earth. Note the answer he gets him, which I suppose is the most important answer, what he really wants him to know, because this is what he tells him. “By the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth.” That’s the most important thing, that’s what we really need to know about creation. So, in the next couple weeks we start studying Creation and there are all sorts of fantastic things to study in there. But this is the stuff you have to remember. The real how of Creation is by Christ. Everything else is subtext.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:46:48 Keep that in mind, it will all work out. Forget that, none of it’s going to work out. But now, we’re going to get this other information. So he needs to know apparently two different things before he can get the answer as to why he created these things. One is the How, I create them by Christ. The next thing is, again, really, it’s in humbling. It’s humbling stuff and helping Moses understand again, even after all he’s seen, the might and majesty of God. So he is going to tell him, “Worlds without number have I created, and I also created them for mine own purpose, and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten.” And then he talks about Adam. But, I want to read verse 35 and 36. Well, 35 through 38 are what apparently we have to know to understand verse 39.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:47:41 So he says, “But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you.” So, that’s important to understand. We often talk about, so, “How does this work for other worlds and so on?” And God is telling us, “I’m just telling you about this world. I’m not telling you anything about those.” So, whatever it is we think we know about them, we’re wrong. Okay? He doesn’t tell us about those. So, you speculate all you want, it’s great to think, but let’s know, God’s not telling us. Now, “For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power.” These are worlds that have come and gone. Now, think about how long this world’s been around and stuff. All right, that’s saying something.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:48:17 “There are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable they are unto man.” You are not capable of understanding how many worlds there are. “But all things numbered unto me for they are mine and I know them.” That really tells us something about God and who he is. “And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord saying: Be merciful unto thy servant and tell me concerning this earth.” So he says he will, but verse 37, “And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine.” Again, that … his amazingness, plus the way he knows those who are his. “And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:49:07 So, before he gives him this answer, he wants Moses to understand on yet another level, how omnipotent and mighty and majestic he is. And then after all of that, he will say this, “For behold, this is my work and my glory–to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.” Now, that changes everything. Yeah, that’s the Why, and it changes everything. I’m not exaggerating when I say I understand every other verse of scripture differently because of this verse. I know Why God is doing everything he’s doing, why he’s saying it the way he says it. Everything else we read is said that way, God is doing it that way because he’s trying to bring about our immortality and eternal life. And I pair it actually with John 3:16, these are the two key verses in all of scripture, to me. He’s doing it because he loves us. And because he loves us, he’s trying to bring about our immortality and eternal life.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:50:06 But I will also think that I need to understand this in light of all these other things that show us that it’s by Christ and God’s might and majesty. And when I do that, then I suddenly realize … Well, let’s just put it this way, and it’s a simple way, but I think it’s really important. God’s business is to exalt me. That’s what this verse tells us, to bring us immortality and eternal life. His business is to exalt me and based on everything he’s said and shown us, he’s probably pretty good at what he does. He has the ability, through his son and through who he is, he has … If he can do worlds without number that have already come and gone, he can exalt me. I mean, it may not be easy, but it’s got to be a smaller task than what he’s already done. If he’s done all of that, it can’t be that hard to exalt me. This is a being who is capable of so much. And if what he wants is to exalt me, I thinkhe probably can.

 

Hank Smith: 00:51:10 Yeah. He says often, “I am mighty to save. I’m good at this.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:51:15 I love … I think there’s a lot of moms and dads out there who are … “They believe, “I know he can save me, but I’m worried about my children. I’m worried about my failures to raise my children right, or my perceived failures to raise my children right.” And I love to read this in context with … I was just trying to look it up. I think it’s 2 Nephi 20, maybe where the Lord says, “I am able to do my work.” I’d love to put those together. “This is my work.” It’s not … This doesn’t say this is your job, moms and dads, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of your children. He says, “No, this is my work. And I am able to do my work.” And I hope that gives parents hope out there. He knows how to do this.

 

John Bytheway: 00:52:04 And he will … As we’ve talked about, people will be judged according to what they’ve done with the light they’ve received. And don’t be too hard on yourself. I was going to say too, there was an LDS Living Magazine article, 10, 15 years ago, that said this was the most repeated verse in General Conference. Now every six months, maybe that changes, but Moses 1:39 is apparently very often repeated. And if you’ve ever gone to the scriptures.byu.edu, or if you go to the app citation index, you can search the number of times any verse has been repeated in General Conference since the Restoration. And it’s fun to see the hundreds of times Moses 1:39 has been repeated.

 

John Bytheway: 00:52:51 And if I could just say one more thing, Stephen Covey, in one of his books said that Albert Einstein was once asked, “Hey, if you could ask God anything, what would you ask him?” And Albert Einstein said, “Well, I’d ask him how he created the universe?” And then he paused and changed his mind and said, “No, wait. I would ask him why he created the universe because then I would know the meaning of my life.”

 

Hank Smith: 00:53:13 Wow.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:53:14 And those are the two things Moses asks. Right?

 

John Bytheway: 00:53:16 And look at that. Yeah.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:53:17 Yeah.

 

Hank Smith: 00:53:18 Why and how? John, I wanted to throw in one cross reference Second Chronicles, 20 verse 15. When Jehosaphat … We’re going to study this story later this year … When he’s scared to go to battle, like the parents you talked about and God reminds him, Jehovah reminds him, “The battle is not yours, but God’s. This is my fight. This is my work.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:53:42 And along those lines, maybe I could share a story. I think this would be all right. It’s a story of a friend of mine and I won’t mention names or anything, but who his family has kind of fallen apart. Wife left the Church and stuff like that. And he’s been really worried, since his children are now receiving kind of mixed messages from their parents, about keeping his children in the church and feels like he doesn’t know if they’re going to be saved. And, he talks about praying about that and one time just saying, “What do I need to do to save my children?” and having a really strong experience where he got the answer very clearly, “You don’t save your children. I save your children. You leave this to me. I’m the one who saves them.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:54:24 I think that’s that it’s worth remembering, just like you just said, Hank, that this is his battle. This is his work. And, as you said, John, he is mighty to save. I think we … I’m not saying we shouldn’t … It says to work out our salvation with fear and trembling and I mean, we should be in some ways consumed with this. But, at the same time, we should not be stressed about it. If we are giving it our best shot, God is more than able to change me. If he can change all these worlds intocelestialised fears and whatever else, he can take little, dingy old me and change me.

 

John Bytheway: 00:55:02 Oh, thank you. I found that reference. Let me … For our listeners 2 Nephi 27, and it’s the last part of verse 21, “I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work.” And I love putting those two together. “This is my work to bring to pass your immortality and eternal life. And I know how to do this. I can do my own.” Now we are called able, or we are called willing in the sacrament prayers. I’m willing to take upon thee the name of thy son. I’m willing to always remember him. I’m willing to keep his commandments, but God is always called able. I’m able to do mine own work.”

 

Hank Smith: 00:55:43 … learned in the last couple of years as I’ve … People will ask, “Hey, how do I help my roommate? How do I help my son, my daughter? How do I help them?” And one thing I’ve started to say is, “Remember, you’re the assistant. You’re not the primary role here. You’re the assistant. So just listen to the lead as he does his work,” because we often think, “Well, I’m the one … I’m center stage here, I’ve got to do something.” And I’m saying, “Well, if he asked you to, then do.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:14 Yeah. Our role is to bring people to Christ. Christ is the one who brings them to the father. That’s way beyond us. We’ve just got to get him pointed, say, “That’s where you need to go.” And sooner or later, they’ll remember that we pointed them. They may not remember it when we want them to, but sooner or later, they’ll remember that we pointed them. Christ will do the work.

 

Hank Smith: 00:56:34 It’s interesting that when he asked him, “How’d you do it?” he just pointed him to Christ, right?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:39 Yeah.

 

Hank Smith: 00:56:40 And so, we have Christ pointing Moses to himself, right?

 

John Bytheway: 00:56:42 Right.

 

Hank Smith: 00:56:43 “How’d you do all this?” “Just listen to me. Just follow me.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:56:47 Well, and it’s so interesting. You get this relationship between the Godhead, that, I mean, what we know of the father is he keeps introducing the son, but what is the son going to do? He’s going to testify of the Father and bring us to the Father. What does the Holy Ghost do? He testifies of both of them and brings them to the Father. They work together, but it’s funneled through Christ to the Father.

 

Hank Smith: 00:57:07 Sometimes, I think we’re so worried about being, not Trinitarian that we don’t talk about the unity of the Godhead.

 

John Bytheway: 00:57:14 The oneness, yeah, I was thinking about-

 

Hank Smith: 00:57:16 Yeah.

 

John Bytheway: 00:57:16 … that very thing. It’s just fine if he speaks for the Father, they’re one.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:57:21 Yeah. I think sometimes, we confuse ourselves by being obsessed about this, whereas, if you look at most of the prophetic writers, they’re not that concerned about distinguishing between one and the other. They’ll talk about them the same way. They’re really just not concerned about it.I’m not saying that we should stop believing that they’re three separate beings, there are, but Christ is pretty clear. “Well, if you’ve seen me, you’ve seen the Father. If you’ve seen the father, you’ve seen me.” We just … Christ’s purpose, in many ways … Elder Holland taught this … was to reveal the Father to us, and in many ways, by just being like the Father. And that’s how we learn about the Father. So, thank goodness that we have that intermediary who can reveal the Father to us and bring us home to the Father.

 

John Bytheway: 00:58:12 Boy, this verse 41 is … I’m reading this going, “Wow.” “In a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as not.” And, Kerry, you are talking about, “I’m so into social media, but I’m not so much into the words of God,” and the impact that can have on your soul. Look at this. That sounds like our day.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:58:37 Yeah. Yeah. And that’s when he is going to give us these words again. When we people have decided, “We don’t care so much about God,” he’s going to give us something that should make us care. And I hope that people will study this and that we will care more about God and recognize that he cares more about us than we thought.

 

Hank Smith: 00:58:59 I love what you said there, Kerry. This is from that same Elder Holland talk that I quoted. Elder Holland says, “Like, Moses, don’t lose your confidence. Don’t forget how you once felt. Don’t distrust the experience that you had. Satan’s going to try to get you to second guess your spiritual experiences. That tenacity is what saved Moses, when the Adversary confronted him. And it is what will save you–tenacity.”

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:59:24 It’s so true.

 

Hank Smith: 00:59:25 … tenacity to hold to your spiritual experiences.

 

John Bytheway: 00:59:28 Kerry, this has been so great. Thank you so much.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 00:59:33 This is just fun stuff.

 

John Bytheway: 00:59:34 I always knew I love this chapter, but you have expanded my mind on this. That ennobling/humbling thing, I will never forget that. That’s really good.

 

Hank Smith: 00:59:44 Yeah. And for me, it’s that Abraham three, “Let me show you how they …” I’ve got to give you a little MTC experience, because I’ve read that before going, “I don’t know why he’s doing this, I bet Kerry does.” I’ve actually thought that as I’m reading it. I’m like, “I bet Kerry understands this.”

 

John Bytheway: 00:59:59 And I love that, as well. That, as also, the pivot point in there is … But there’s something more important than stars and planets and that is souls. So let me start talking about those. That’s great stuff.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:00:13 It’s fun. It is fun stuff.

 

Hank Smith: 01:00:15 Kerry, this has been, I mean, just a fantastic discussion. I feel like these two chapters … And I’m more excited for our Old Testament year, just because of what we’ve done today. Tell us, Kerry, what’s it like being an Old Testament Egyptologist scholar and being a member of the church? Give us just a little bit of your journey, your experiences.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:00:43 That’s a great question. I mean, the journey would be a long, long story, but I’ll tell you just, I guess in brief, that as I learned how much I loved the scriptures and as I felt the … You know when Alma talks about that joy and it tastes good to you. “Tastes delicious to you,” I think is the phrase he uses in Alma 32. As I learned that it started to taste delicious to me, but I also recognized that I was going to be unhappy if I spent the rest of my life teaching, because I decided I wanted to teach seminary at that point. And I thought, “I’m going to be unhappy if I spend the rest of my life teaching this and I can’t do it as well as I could, if I studied more.” And so, everyone will have a different journey in what studying more looks like for them.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:01:32 But I, personally, felt directed to go to graduate school. And there were some times where it felt like a battle, where people would tell me, “Oh, this isn’t historical,” or, “This isn’t accurate.” And I feel like, “Okay, I have to battle.” But most of the time … It’s only when I had specific people trying to convince me of stuff that in the end was just silly … when I would just investigate things on their own terms, studying history, studying archeology … I’m an archeologist. I study archeology and textual analysis. I’m also a philologist. It’s not often you get both, but it’s a weird set of circumstances that have made me both a philologist and an archeologist. And usually you end up being one or the other. Philology means the study of text and words and languages to understand something.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:02:27 So as I study the text, as I study the archeology, as I study the history, they always just combine to help me understand better, and understand God better. It verifies the scriptural text. Archeology, I find it always verifying the scriptural text and helping me understand it better. So, that’s been my approach, is to look at these things. I’m not trying to prove or disprove anything I want to understand better. And it just turns out that when you do come to understand better, it verifies the word of God. But, there is something so enriching and exciting when youcan take a couple of little things, like, okay, something from Moses 3 or Abraham 3, something from Moses 1, something from my historical knowledge of Egyptian history and suddenly it coalesces and something makes sense. And I feel God’s love more.

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:03:25 And I know he wants to save me more. And, that’s kind of what’s happened for us here, but that kind of thing happens for me all the time. I just find when we do what Joseph Smith asks or, well, God asks through Joseph Smith, to study by learning and by faith, to really just bring everything we have to the table and then see what God can do with it, that God does some pretty fun and ennobling things that enrich our lives and draw us closer to him and enhance that relationship with him.

 

Hank Smith: 01:03:59 I absolutely love it. John, Season 2, Episode 1 in the books, and an excitement for the Old Testament, I can just feel it, it’s coming.

 

John Bytheway: 01:04:11 Oh yeah. What a great way to start. Thank you so much. Dr. Muhlestein, thank you for this. And I hope people will feel the same excitement that I’m feeling right now about, there’s somereally beautiful things in here and fundamental things, who we are, why we’re here, what God wants to do with us, why everything else is here? Super fundamental things to … They chose a good place to start, Moses 1 and Abraham 3, didn’t they?

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:04:42 Yeah. It’s good stuff.

 

Hank Smith: 01:04:43 Relevancy and antiquity is what Elder Maxwell called it. Butyou’re not antiquated, Dr. Muhlestein. We are grateful to you

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein: 01:04:53 My kids tell me I am.

 

Hank Smith: 01:04:55 You’re fantastic. We loved having you here and I’m sure we’ll have you back. Thank you, 

 

Dr. Kerry Muhlestein. Thank you for everyone who stayed with us today. Thank you for listening. We love you. We want to thank our Executive Producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen and our production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice. Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Kyle Nelson and Scott Houston. And we hope you’ll all join us for our next episode, our next Old Testament episode of followHim.

 

Hank Smith: 01:05:45 Hey, we want to remind everybody. You can find us on social media. Come to Facebook, come over to Instagram and find out what we’re doing over there. There’s a bunch of extras and quotes and things. Please subscribe too, rate, review the podcast. We’d love that. And our website is followhim.co, followhim.co, where you can get the transcripts, show notes.You can even read the transcripts in French, Portuguese, and Spanish, if you’d like. And of course you can join us on YouTube, if you want to. If you want to watch the podcast, you can leave us some comments there.