Hank Smith: 00:00:04 Hello, my friends. Welcome to FollowHIM. My name’s Hank Smith, I’m your host. I’m here with the monumental John Bytheway as a co-host. Hello, John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:13 Monumental? My football coach used to call me that.

Hank Smith: 00:00:17 I went to Monument Valley and they had pictures of John Bytheway up everywhere. John, the reason I bring that up is because we have done something monumental this year. We have gone through the entire New Testament. It’s a wonderful thing, John, we have over 100 hours of content going through Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans. What kind of year have you had?

John Bytheway: 00:00:40 My love for the Bible, which I thought I had before, has just increased my appreciation for the scholars that we have. The more you learn, the more you discover how much you really don’t know, how much more there is to learn. I’m grateful and humbled for this year. It’s been awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:00:59 John, we are on our third lesson in the Book of Revelation. What have you enjoyed so far?

John Bytheway: 00:01:05 I love that we have keys to understanding Revelation. I love that we have Section 27, Section 77. We have Section 88, 133. The Lord is not giving us a revelation and then leaving us clueless. He’s giving us some clues. I’ve appreciated that and I think this last section to me is one of the hardest because there’s so many symbols throughout this one. I’m excited to go through this last part here.

Hank Smith: 00:01:30 I’ve been struck as I’ve been thinking about these lessons by John’s portrayal of the slain lamb, Revelations 5, that he introduces our hero of the entire book with this… He hears about a lion, but he looks, it’s a slain lamb. And I’ve been thinking about that. That beautiful symbolism can really stay with you. John, we are joined by someone I know is a good friend of yours. You’ve already quoted him in our first two lessons in Revelation and now we get him in the flesh. So John, introduce Dr. Richard Draper to our listeners.

John Bytheway: 00:02:07 I’m just so glad he is willing to admit that he knows me. But I have cassettes of his on Revelation in my master’s program. I remember him writing Ancient Greek on the dry erase board as if it were English and jaws were dropping all over the room, it was so cool. I love Richard Draper. Richard D. Draper is Professor Emeritus at Brigham Young University who has taught Old Testament, New Testament, Pearl of Great Price, Book of Mormon and the Book of Revelation. Brother Draper grew up in Utah Valley, graduated from Pleasant Grove High School. Right after graduation, he joined the Armed Forces for a year. Upon his return, served a mission to the Central Atlantic states. He attended BYU and as soon as he graduated, was hired by the church educational system, serving as an Institute instructor for the next 20 years. When he completed his PhD in Ancient history from BYU, he was hired by Religious Education. He’s been a professor of ancient scripture, specializing in prophecy, apocalyptic and New Testament background. Brother Draper can read Greek, Hebrew, French and German. So thrilled to have you here, Dr. Brother Richard Draper.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:03:27 Thank you very much. I appreciate that introduction, John. And you haven’t lost your knack. I want you to know that.

John Bytheway: 00:03:36 In fact, Hank, I wanted Brother Draper to tell a story that I heard him tell about how interested he just was at a young age in prophecy and how he kept taking New Testament class so he could learn about Revelation. Can you tell that little story?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:03:51 I was not raised in an active LDS family. My father was not converted until I was 15, but I always had a propensity toward the church. I was a kid that used to go to church on my own. My dad would much prefer me to go fishing, but mom was a good lady and she encouraged me. And I really liked seminary, it was in my exposure to the church and the doctrine. 11th grade year was the New Testament and the last two class periods, Brother McKenna got into this wonderful and strange book called Revelation. And I learned then there was this thing called prophecy. I am by nature a fairly insecure person and therefore I like to order my life. In fact, my wife will tell you what I do each evening. I schedule the next day. And she will also tell you, “Don’t interrupt Richard’s schedule. He gets cranky.” I like an ordered life. It’s the way I feel. I feel secure.

  00:04:48 All of a sudden there’s this thing called prophecy that tells you the future. Well, I decided, “Wow, this is really good.” So I said to Brother McKenna, “Where can I learn more about this wonderful Book of Revelation?” And he said, “Well, you’re going to college.” I said, “Mm-hmm.” He says, “Go to college and take a New Testament Institute class and they will teach you all about Revelation.” I went into the army and I went on my mission and I came back and I was enrolled at BYU, took the Book of Mormon the first year, and then it was New Testament. I did not take the first half, 211. I took 212. Why? Because there was Revelation. I wanted that. We got to Jude. End of class period, we got to Jude. I was really disappointed.

Hank Smith: 00:05:32 Never touched the book.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:05:34 Yeah, never even got close. That time they had beginning courses and advanced courses in religion, so I had taken 212, the introductory course. About a year and a half later I signed up for 412, the advanced course. We got to Second Peter. That was it. Not even as good as Jude, okay? So I was really disappointed. I graduated, went on with my life, was getting my master’s degree out of Arizona State University. I was doing research, so I had a good thesis advisor. I was doing material on Utah history, 1847 to 1857, which allowed me to use BYU’s library and also the church archives. But it just so happened one of the summers I was up here studying. I found out that they were having graduate studies. They were offering 512, so I was able to manipulate the program and I got into 512.

  00:06:31 Guess what? Last day, we hit Revelation. Did the professor talk about Revelation? No. He said, “I read this paper by one of you students. I’m going to have him talk about the paper.” This student got up and talked about the five ways of interpreting Revelation. I could not have been more disappointed. Couldn’t have been more disappointed. I didn’t want to know about Colossians. I wasn’t really into Romans. I just wanted to know Revelation. So now we fast-forward probably another decade or so. I’m now doing my graduate studies in Greek and we’re doing the Koine semester. That’s the Greek that the Bible, the Septuagint and the New Testament, the early church fathers are written in, that’s the dialect.

  00:07:17 But Richard Anderson was the instructor. We met together two students. You can do that in graduate school. Okay? He said, “Well, what would you like to read? We got this massive amount of material in Koine.” And I said, “Would it be possible to do Revelation?” And he said, “Oh, that would be wonderful. I haven’t been through that book for quite a while. Yeah, let’s do Revelation. It won’t be quite enough. We’ll pick up something else.”

Hank Smith: 00:07:41 Did you say, “I’ve never actually…”

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:07:43 Never got there. No. Art Bailey, my classmate and I spent the summer translating the Revelation and that whetted my appetite even more. And out of that then grew these volumes that I’ve done. It’s been a lot of fun and a lot of work.

Hank Smith: 00:07:58 Man, there’s many a teacher out there feeling some guilt. I’ve done that before too. Didn’t make it to the end.

John Bytheway: 00:08:06 That story, it’s interesting and humorous and kind of sad, but it changed my life because I thought, “I may have a student who really wants to spend time in Moroni 10 when I teach Book of Mormon.” That was really helpful. I just laughed when every time you took Revelation, you never got there. Thank you for retelling that.

Hank Smith: 00:08:25 That’s funny.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:08:26 You’re welcome.

Hank Smith: 00:08:26 John, since we’re interested in getting to the end, we better get started. We can’t tell that story and then not get to the end.

John Bytheway: 00:08:33 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:08:35 Richard, let me read something from the Come, Follow Me manual. This is the first paragraph for this lesson, which is entitled He That Overcometh Shall Inherit All Things. The Book of Revelation powerfully testifies that Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end of everything, of the great sweeping drama of human existence and salvation. He is the Lamb, slain from the foundations of the world. He’s the King of Kings who brings an end to wickedness, sorrow and death itself and ushers in a new heaven and new earth. He is the bright and morning star that shines in the dark sky as a promise that dawn is coming soon. And it is coming soon. He is coming. Even as He invites us, “Come unto me”, He also comes to us. “I come quickly”, he declares. And with hope and faith that has been purified in the fires of latter-day adversity, we answer even so, “Come Lord Jesus.” That’s Revelation 22:20, “Come Lord Jesus.” With that great introduction, Richard, how do you want to take on these last eight chapters of the Book of Revelation?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:09:40 What I would like to do is use a broad brush and a narrow brush and by the broad brush just show starting with chapter 15 how the pieces fit together. We’re not going to read all this material, but at least I can say this is what this section’s doing, this is what this section’s doing and so on. This is how they couple along the way. But there are just some points that beg to be stopped and looked at things. Now there’s some parts that I need to warn the reader, they may be interested in knowing something about that I may pass over. If an angel came to me and said, “You’ve been working on Revelation, Rich, for a long time, is there a part that you would like to know more about?” Believe it or not, it would not be 666, the number of the beast. I feel comfortable that we’ve pretty well got that hammered out. I’d like to know about chapter 17 because there is a lot of symbolism there and there’s been a lot of ink spilled over chapter 17.

  00:10:43 Therefore, when we get to 17, I’m not going to analyze that much. What I’m going to do though is I’m going to point or point out what the symbols mean. So we may not be able to say, “Okay, who’s the five? Who’s the seven, who’s the eighth?” But at least we can say, “The story is this. This is what John is trying to say as we move through these particular sections.” So that’s my plan of attack for this one. Just two points that I’d like to start with. The first one is not very pleasant. When I’ve been asked to talk on Revelation before I begin by saying I’ve got good news and bad news. The bad news is we’re right on schedule and the good news is we’re right on schedule.

Hank Smith: 00:11:28 On schedule.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:11:29 The bad news, and this is where apocalyptic and prophetic come together, and that is things are not going to get better, they’re only going to get worse. Starting a discussion like this, you want everything to build to crescendo. There is power and beauty and everything’s going to be okay. And believe it or not, we will get there. We’re going to go through some pretty dark chapters here before we get to the end. In doing so, I think it highlights just how important what Christ is doing and what a magnificent ending He brings to the faithful. That’s one thing I would like to note.

  00:12:05 The second is this. I’m very often asked which seal are we in? What we have to understand is apocalyptic is a model of reality. It is not reality. Now, let me say that again. It’s a model of reality, but it’s not the reality. It’s like having a model of say a Boeing 747. You can learn a tremendous amount of a Boeing 747 by studying the model. But to say, “Which seal are we in?”, to me it’s like saying, “So which seat am I in in that model?” And the answer is, “You’re not in a seat. It’s a model.” We are in the last days, okay? You want to know what seal we’re in? We’re in the last days. We’re not in a seal, we’re in the last days. The seal is just simply part of the model to help us keep track chronologically as to where things are going. The Lord has promised us, D&C 68, that we will know. We know the signs of the times. That’s what He’s doing for the Latter-day Saints, and therefore the Book of Revelation is a wonderful piece to help us feel where we are in the signs of the times and to be able to keep track of what’s going.

Hank Smith: 00:13:13 I have to throw in a funny story here. There was a missionary who asked Elder Holland very seriously. He said, “Are we in the last days?” And Elder Holland said, “Son, I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but even I know the name of the church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Last-Day Saints, right?”

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:13:35 We got it. We’re there. Okay. The last point I’d like to make before we start diving in, and that is the Book of Revelation is a book of limits. Now that’s very important as we get into some of these destruction scenes, we’ve already been through chapters 8 to 9, tremendous destruction scenes. The first half of the book really highlights the limits. Locusts only live for 10 months. One-third of the water is affected, one-third of the earth is affected. One-third is affected for this, that and the other. There’s always a limit. And the passive voice is extremely strong. In Greek, they have what is called the divine passive, and that is where you do not mention God directly. He stands behind the scene, He’s in the wings calling the shots or He’s directing the things, but He’s not on the stage. The divine passive is used to indicate what God is doing there. And as we take a look at what’s going on, we see God operating, but He’s operating behind the scenes. That’s up through chapter 14.

  00:14:40 Now we move into chapter 15 and we’re going to see a shift in that idea. It’s no longer going to be limits. We are going to see a shift in the populations. The first half shows the limits, the second half, oh, there’s no limits, and the question is why? And the answer is the first part of Revelation is the worldview. One of the things that says is that most of the world is going to survive during this time. With chapter 15, we’re looking at a specific category of people, those who follow the beast, wear the mark of the beast, promote the way of the beast. In this, they will be destroyed and they will be utterly destroyed from off the face of the earth. So we need to keep that in mind as we go through this particular section because this is going to be pretty bleak. But we have to keep in mind that it’s targeting a specific group of people with a very severe warning as to what’s going on and what’s going to happen to them. I think that’s what we’ve got by way of introductions.

Hank Smith: 00:15:43 Let me ask you a quick question, Richard, and if you’re John’s 1st century audience, are you seeing this as a future day or is this a war between good and evil that’s happening right in front of you in the 1st century?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:15:56 I would like to say both. There’s no doubt that the primary audience is the 1st century Christians. I mean they are being hammered during this time and therefore the book is saying to them, “Hold on, hang on. Everything is all right.” In fact, let me just simply say one of those aspects that make Revelation a little difficult to read is there are these moments where the narrative stops and we have this interlude, the narrative goes on and we have another interlude. But if you take a look at those interludes, they take place just before things get really nasty and they always look back at what’s happening at the church.

  00:16:37 For instance, chapter seven is the largest interlude. And what does chapter seven say? This is about the sealing of the saints. Nothing bad’s going to happen until the saints are sealed and things will move forward. We’ve got a couple of interludes in our section where I’ll share where there’s this just little pause, “Okay, I’m going to instruct the righteous now. All right, having instructed the righteous, let’s go back and kill a few billion people.” So there’s always this look to reassure the reader that things are going to be okay for the righteous, but this portion, the message of this portion until you get to 20, 21 and 22, this is the strong warning to the wicked. And John pulls no punches as to what’s going to happen to them.

Hank Smith: 00:17:22 Oh, okay. If I’m a 1st century Christian, I’m hearing my enemies are going to get it.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:17:28 Yes, exactly right. They feel the hand of those enemies. I mean Rome is now moving with an iron fist. They’ve already been persecuted by the Jews from the time of Nero onward by being a Christian as a capital offense, and so they’ve been now harried. I put the dating of Revelation of course in the last decade of the 1st century. So these people have been around a long time and they have been harried for a long time and they need a word of encouragement. Again, as we look at through their lens, yes, things are going to get bad, but from their perspective it’s the enemy who’s going to get it at last and then that bolsters their determination to continue to move forward and serve the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:18:09 I think you used a phrase on one of the recordings of yours I listened to, you just mentioned that God is kind of behind the scenes up until now, but then you said when He’s very overt and you equated that with, “He’ll make bare His arm”, which is a scriptural phrase we hear sometimes. It’ll be obvious that He’s intervening. And I love that, “Oh”, recognition of God’s going to make bare His arm and you will see Him doing the things He’s prophesying.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:18:36 Boy, right here is where things are really happening. Right now, God is still behind the scenes. There’s going to come a moment where He’s going to walk on the stage but the lamb’s going to walk on the stage as well. Starting with chapter 15 then we have, as it says, “And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous, seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them is filled the wrath of God.”

  00:19:01 So here we have the final plagues final for two reasons. One, none will follow these. This is the end of the destruction sequence. Second, and this is what that verse focuses on, is their funnel because in them God’s wrath is spent. It’s done. He has fulfilled the anger that’s in Him and it has been completely satisfied. Verses 2-4 are a flash forward, interestingly enough, to the celestial world where there is this song of praise for the greatness of God and the result of His greatness, and that is the nations will come to worship Him. He is going to exercise His muscle and people are going to come to recognize just exactly what He is.

  00:19:46 Verses 2-4 are important because it sets up the righteousness of God for doing the destroying that’s going to go on. He is going to focus on the wicked. It shows His passion to wickedness and what’s going to happen because of that. In verses 5-8, we see the glory and power of God being exemplified through the temple. It is interesting as it says, this is verse 8, “And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of the Lord and from His power and no man was able to enter into the temple until the seven plagues of the seven angels are fulfilled.” The temple, especially on the day of atonement, was that of expiation. If no one can enter the temple, there is going to be no expiation and therefore God will be moving forward. This section therefore celebrates the justice, not the mercy of God.

  00:20:49 Here we see what a God of justice does, especially when that justice comes out in avenging those of His children who have been hammered way too long. Two points, once the plagues commence, they’re inexorable. They cannot be stopped. Boy, once that first angel looses his plague, things are going to move forward. And the second is God’s destruction of the wicked is fully justified. What He does next is really there. So I’d like to make a little excursus on the idea of God being a God of passion and even a God of anger. Because a lot of people, it makes them nervous and especially if we say, “Well, remember that in the Old Testament where we meet this very passionate God, it is Jehovah. Jehovah is the Lord. The Lord is Jesus. Does Jesus have a tough side? Because isn’t Jesus always nice?”

  00:21:47 Those who I’ve heard say, “Jesus is always nice”, I wonder if they have a different rendition of the New Testament than I do. But be that as it may, just a couple of things, the idea that God is beyond passion was brought into Christianity in the middle of the 2nd century onward. Many of the early church fathers bought into this idea. But the idea is not biblical. We see throughout the Old Testament particularly, but even in Jesus as we looked at the New Testament, He can get riled and He can get riled pretty good. It’s often masked because anything Jesus says is started by, “And Jesus said…” It never says, “And Jesus was really piqued and said…” Or something like that.

Hank Smith: 00:22:33 Yeah, “Angrily responded…” Yeah.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:22:36 Yeah, exactly right. Peter collars Him at one point when Jesus predicts His death, and boy, the Savior really riles on him, “Get thee behind me, Satan. Thou knowest not what thou doest.” He can be very sharp and so on.

  00:22:50 Here’s a piece I put together some time ago to explore this idea of the wrath of God. The relationship protected by the first commandment was a gift. Jehovah gave Himself to Israel. He said, “I will be your God.” Israel showed acceptance of that gift by obedience. God loves His children. This forms the foundation of His justice. He acts favorably and justly toward those who know Him by heart and attend to His commandments. Since the presence of God is a gift, the commandments are a protection of that gift. Loving and obeying God is not a case of earning divine favor but of living in accordance with it. What Israel is to give God, obedience, goes beyond negative duty, to a positive attitude of loyalty to God and a recognition of what He has given them in the love offering of Himself. He warned Israel he would not tolerate disobedience, but He also explained why. “Thou shalt worship no other God for the Lord whose name is Jealous is a jealous God.” That’s Exodus 34:14.

  00:24:05 Jehovah says, “Thou shalt not bow down thyself to idols nor serve them for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations of them that hate me and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.” That’s Exodus 20:5-6. Moses confirms the same thing, saying, “For the Lord thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.” Deuteronomy 4:24. Joshua, as Israel moves into the promised land, puts it this way, “Ye cannot serve the Lord in sin. For He is an Holy God. He is a jealous God. He will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins. If ye forsake the Lord and serve strange gods, then He will turn to do you hurt and consume you. After that, He has done you good.” That’s Joshua 24:19&20.

  00:25:04 The Hebrew word translated jealousy is kana. It can be translated intense zeal or strong adore. It is the emotion that is released when a valued object is threatened, harmed or destroyed. But we all feel jealousy, we’ve all felt that is a common rule. God also has that same thing but it is magnified because we’re talking about His children. He has some real feelings about His children.

Hank Smith: 00:25:37 Think about your own children, your own friends, yeah, you would respond the same way.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:25:43 Mm-hmm. Yeah, exactly right. Judgments of God are not blind, impersonal and mechanically operated forces, they reflect neither karma nor fate. The judgment of God is the judgment of the absolute and totally personal Creator whose judgment operates within the context of His love and His hate. His grace toward His people and His wrath toward His enemies. Because when all is said and done, justice will prevail. Throughout the scriptures, we see the self-destructive nature of wickedness. But God cannot allow such self-destruction, to act as an impersonal nemesis and independent self-operating moral loss, sweeping away all in its path. To do so would allow the powers of evil to carry all the inhabitants of the earth down with them into utter ruin. Evil must be allowed to combine its nefarious forces against the Savior’s people and then be forced back in utter defeat through faith, trust and the loyalty of the Lord’s people and through God’s kana, His jealousy. In sum, God’s jealousy is a two-edged sword that cuts both ways. It acts to protect His people, but it also acts to destroy and punish the enemy. In chapter 15, then we see this idea beginning to move forward.

Hank Smith: 00:27:18 When we talk about God’s jealousy or God’s anger, I think oftentimes we come into the scriptures with an idea of God and that Jesus is always nice, and then when we read a scripture where it doesn’t seem to fit, we maybe skip it-

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:27:35 Water it down.

Hank Smith: 00:27:37 Explain it away. Instead of just letting the scriptures themselves inform us, instead of us informing them, work through it and learn from it. Let it inform your view.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:27:50 When Jesus is upset, how does He handle it? Isn’t there a lesson there for us when we get upset? How does He handle it? Because He is always in control. I mean, just stop and think for a minute. He cleanses the temple. That’s not a spontaneous act. Buys a bunch of leather thongs and makes a whip out of them. I mean this is premeditated. He’s not going to go up there by Himself. And by the way, remember, this is a country kid, do you think he knows how to use a whip? We never talk about that. He could probably flick a fly off the ear of a donkey. He is well-prepared, well protected with that whip, I’ll tell you. But it’s premeditated. He knows what He’s doing and He’s going to go through the whole thing.

Hank Smith: 00:28:32 He doesn’t flip out. It’s a careful thought through-

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:28:35 Yeah, exactly right. His castigation of the Pharisees when he calls them hypocrites.

Hank Smith: 00:28:42 Matthew 23.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:28:44 Yes, exactly. The word hypocrite, in English, it’s a pretty strong word. The word that Jesus uses, hypocrites, translates that Hebrew of Hanif. And Hanif means godless or apostate. He isn’t just calling them hypocrites, He is going to the root and that is, “You are a bunch of apostates.” That’s another book and probably a talk for another time. All right, so chapter 16 reveals what will happen when the Lord’s power is unleashed. In 15, it’s coming. Chapter 16. The thing that I would like to note is even though suffering is going to amount, everything is under God’s control. Verses 1-3, again, it’s not partial, it’s total destruction. The weight comes down very heavy on these people as the angels move.

  00:29:37 In fact, what we do here is we’re returning to chapters eight and nine. We’re just repositioning the camera. In eight and nine, it looks to the world and what’s going to happen to the world. And let me tell you, that’s pretty scary. You’ve already been through that one here. Now we’re going to position the angle and says, “Well, what happens to those who are not He? The really wicked ones of the earth?” The focus here are on those who created the society that’s going to bring about the end. I really like this statement. This is from Homer Hailey. In his book Revelation, page 328, he says, “These are the ones who created the society. In such a society, morals decline to the lowest level. The family collapses. Schools bring anarchy and rebellion. Business ethics are forgotten. Entertainment becomes base and sordid. The printing press exudes smut and filth, until the whole is strangled in its own death blood and suffocates in its own stench.” And that’s really strong. It just really says the danger that is here and we can say, “Well, no wonder God’s upset with what’s going on here.”

  00:30:49 Verses 4 and 5, again, go back to show that God is justified. In fact, one of the things that’s interesting as we read this thing is how hard these people are. They will not repent. Notice verse 11, “And they blaspheme the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores and repented not of their deeds.” Blaspheme, of course, means to revile or to rile on. But the root, what’s underneath the idea of blaspheming is a willingness to spin lies to bring down the character rather, in order to have sympathy for oneself. These people, rather than repent, are trying to get people to say, “You cannot worship these beings. Notice how mean he is to us. This is not a good, kind person.” Even as their world is falling apart, they’re not repenting, they’re still trying to get people to come to their cause.

  00:31:49 Very often, Luke 11:17, as I recall, where Jesus talks about a kingdom divided, I’ve heard a number of people, not a lot say, “Well, Satan’s kingdom is divided.” But that’s not the point that Jesus makes there. His point is that Satan’s kingdom is not divided. “I do not cast out the devils by Beelzebul. A kingdom that is divided cannot stand.” What He’s doing right there is he’s saying the devil’s kingdom is not divided. He has machinery and it works. Here in 16:10, “And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast and his kingdom was full of darkness and they gnawed their tongues for pain.”

  00:32:29 This is where Satan at last loses control of his kingdom. So far he has been able to orchestrate everything that’s going on and thereby create a tremendous amount of horror and bloodshed, everything has been going his way, especially here in these last days. Things are good, but it comes to an end. Satan’s kingdom is built on pride. Satan’s kingdom is built on come-upmanship, one-upmanship and so on. Therefore, if too much pressure is applied to it, it fractures. And it is in chapter 16 where we see that capturing. And Satan, he has unleashed this fury and now it’s even going to get outside his hands. I mean it is really going to move.

Hank Smith: 00:33:14 Richard, am I seeing in chapter 16, one, the Lord’s vengeance, but two, that can almost say they brought this on themselves, “You built this monster and now it’s eating you.”

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:33:24 Ooh, and I like that especially. Yeah, it’s eating you. You build it and now it’s turned on you. Satan has worked so hard to build so much misery and so much destruction and to get all of these people under as if to bind them with cords and to keep them hid and so on. And guess what? They get away from him. He can’t do it because Satan in the end’s going to lose everything. And here’s where we see, in chapter 16 is where we see that losing control. Verse 12, the Euphrates dries up. This lays the nature of the work for the great battle. Essentially the Euphrates drying up represents all inhibitors being taken off. The Lord is just simply, “Move back. The power is going to come.” And we see the power of the lies that Satan’s going to send forth. We see in verses 13 and 14 the frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon of the beast and a false prophet. These represent satanic influences that are going forth unopposed with great power.

  00:34:30 Listen to this from Doctrine & Covenants 93 that explains in a non-apocalyptic way what’s going on. “I am holding back my spirit, that is God’s restraining power, from the inhabitants of the earth. I have sworn in my wrath and decreed wars upon the face of the earth and the wicked shall slay the wicked and fear shall come upon every man and the saints themselves shall hardly escape.” So a little warning right there. But then in 15 we get an interlude. All right? So everything’s moving along and then all of a sudden we find, “Behold I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth and keepeth his garments lest he walk naked and they see a shame.” Then we get right back to destruction scenarios right there.

  00:35:16 I believe that that little aside to the saints is, “Now look, you must be prepared. You cannot delay your preparation. You must be prepared, for the time is short.” Many of you are so young, you probably likely do not have the same feeling toward the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the Soviet Union. As people my age do. We are the ones who used to duck on our desk to practice what would happen if we got hit by a nuclear bomb. We were scared of those kind of things already.

Hank Smith: 00:35:46 That was elementary school.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:35:48 Oh yeah. When the Berlin Wall fell, oh my goodness, that was really something. What is interesting is you start six months before and just take a look at what the pundits are saying, nobody saw it. That is what’s amazing. Here we have the collapse of the Soviet Union and as you read the newspapers and articles and everything, not one of them says, “It’s cracking, it’s going to come down.” Nobody knew what was going to happen. But for you and for me, let’s do something much more closer. The housing bust of 2008. Who saw that coming? And all of a sudden bam, there it is. Therefore, I believe we need to tie verse 15 in to the parable of the 10 virgins. Matthew 25, five virgins wise, five foolish. There’s not going to be time to prepare.

  00:36:37 So let me read another piece that I wrote closely connected with this thought is the phrase repeated twice near the end of the book. “Behold I come quickly”, in verses 7-12. The Lord is not telling the early Christians to expect Him at any moment. Rather the phrase characterizes a dynamic quality of time. The Lord is saying that he is coming in the pressing, urgent time, the time bearing within it a measureless spiritual hastening that moves to crescendo upon the humanity unmoved, unrepentant and unprepared. In sum, that Christ comes quickly can very well mean He comes too quickly for an unprepared and sleeping humanity. That the time is near may mean that it is short, that it is actually too short considering the slowness and the laziness of human souls. Verse 15 to me speaks volumes. Saints, be prepared. Don’t delay it. I’m telling you what’s going to happen here. Be prepared. Verse 16 tells us what to prepare for, Armageddon. That’s a word that’s been loaded for a very, very long time.

Hank Smith: 00:38:01 You’re standing in the grocery store aisle and there’s the magazine, “Armageddon is here”, right? The cover of all those tabloids.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:38:09 Exactly right. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:38:11 We have heard the metaphor throughout the New Testament of coming as a thief in the night. And we’ve also heard the metaphor of a woman in travail. Now I would like to believe that for the wicked, He comes as a thief in the night without warning and for the righteous, if we’re watching, like verse 15 says, and we see signs, it’s more like a woman in travail because she has known for months what’s coming. Is that fair to say maybe the thief in the night is for some and the woman in travail is for others? Or are they both just useful metaphors for the same thing? What do you think?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:38:47 I like the way you’re connecting. She knows. She is pregnant. She has an approximate time of that when that’s coming as well. One of the things that the Doctrine & Covenants does right from chapter one, the preface, “Knowing what’s going to happen, the Lord give you these things.” And then we have, is it 106, that it is the wicked who are asleep, “But unto you, I want you to be the children of light and that day shall not overtake you as a thief.” The saints, if they are prepared, will know and therefore can be ready for when it comes. I don’t know that we’ll know the literal day or the hour. That the figurative day or an hour, oh yes. We keep our eye on the prophet, on the 12 Apostles, the Lord’s not going to abandon us.

John Bytheway: 00:39:34 And it’s really nice that the Lord didn’t have to tell us anything. He could have just said, “I’m not telling you when I’m coming.” But look how he gives the saints all these clues and things to watch for. And in a way it kind of can build our testimonies to say, “Yeah, this was supposed to happen. Yeah, it’s getting intense here, but this is nothing that we haven’t been told would be happening.”

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:39:57 We’re right on schedule. And how do we know we’re right on schedule? Because we’ve been told what’s going on there. Just to comment then on verse 16, the place of battle is called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. The problem is there is no Hebrew word Armageddon. This is Greek. So how do we say Armageddon in Hebrew? You can’t. I mean some say it’s Har Megiddo, the mountain of Megiddo, but there is no Mount Megiddo. There’s a Mount Carmel, but there is no Mount Megiddo. Megiddo is actually a hill. It’s a stronghold there guarding the path to the Jezreel valley, that makes it a little hard. If we look at various ways to translate the phrase, we can have destroying mountain but also mountain of assembly. Even, believe it or not, desirable city. Therefore it could point to the north of Israel or it could point to Jerusalem itself. But the whole area is going to be affected. It’s not one.

  00:40:57 However, since we’re talking about a mountain, there is a mountain in Jerusalem that may be the target of attack. Now let me just read two scriptures that I find quite telling. So here’s the first one, D&C 24:36. “It is ordained that in Zion and in her stakes and in Jerusalem, those places which I’ve anointed for refuge shall be the places for the baptisms of your dead.” Now the reason this particular verse is important is because I’ve heard people say, “Well, the Jews are going to get their temple up.” Jews don’t do baptism for the dead. There’s only one religious system that does baptism for the dead. So we know whose temple it is. Then this one from 133:13. “Let them who of Judea flee unto Jerusalem unto the mountains of the Lord’s house.” Very interesting pieces.

  00:41:56 Therefore, I would suggest that the objective of Satan’s minions could be the destruction of the temple. That’s what they want because it would show that they have then overpowered Jehovah. The house of the Lord is no longer the holy place to the Lord. It is now in ruins. But it ain’t going to happen. And the reason it ain’t going to happen is because there’s going to be some divine intervention. Now, one of the things we see in chapters eight, nine and 16 is that destruction is mottled.

  00:42:30 John, you brought up the idea of the Lord moving into history, moving on stage and so on. This is Helaman 11:6, and let’s just apply it to what’s going on here. Now listen to this. It’s really interesting. “The whole earth was smitten, even among the Lamanites as well as among the Nephites, so that they were smitten, that they did perish by the thousands in the more wicked parts of the land.” I find that fascinating to say it’s mottled. And not everybody’s going to feel the same pressure and one of the things we find out is that in Zion and in her stakes, those places that I have appointed for refuge are going to be the places for the baptisms of your dead. The Lord is going to prepare a way for the saints to be able to somehow escape this. I’m going to come back to that. We’re going to end with that discussion.

  00:43:24 Here is where we see the Lord moving directly. We’re going to see miracles. We’re moving back to Moses and miracles of Old Testament proportions and so on. Moving on, I get so excited about this material, it’s just beautiful. Verses 7-12 shows the final plague. Now this is the fall, the world, the cities divided into three parts. If the islands flee away, everything is made new. Getting into this and let me read the following. The imagery is designed to emphasize both the depth and the breadth of destruction that is going to occur. Here’s a non-apocalyptic description.

  00:44:07 So we can take a look at what’s happening in 16 and then we can pull back and say, “Okay, now this is the model. What does the reality tell us?” And so this is from D&C 133:21-25. “And He shall utter His voice out of Zion and He shall speak from Jerusalem and His voice shall be heard among all the people and it shall be a voice as the voice of many waters and as the voice of great thunder which shall break down the mountains and the valley shall not be found. He shall command the great deep and it shall be driven back to the north countries. The island shall become one land. The land of Jerusalem and the land of Zion shall be turned back into their own place and the earth shall be like it was in the days before it was divided. And the Lord, even the Savior, shall stand in the midst of His people and shall reign over all flesh.” Pretty powerful. There’s our scripture that relates to those verses.

  00:45:07 The reality though is all of this destruction is actually preparing the earth for the millennial reign. So we’re just going to rearrange some things so that when Jesus comes, the geography is going to be ready for Him to work. Even so, what’s interesting here is the minions of Babylon still are not going to repent, but rather they curse God. They are so hard-hearted, it’s amazing. So the question we ask is how can people become so hard? And now we turn to chapter 17 that answers the question. Here we look at the culprits who bring on the unmitigated horror. Verses 1 and 2 introduce the lackeys. “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials and talked with me saying unto me, ‘Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great whore that sit upon the many waters and with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her for fornication.'”

  00:46:11 He’s carried away, sees the woman, and he also sees her steed. He sees the seductive courtesan and the mount that she rides. We take a look symbolically of those destructive forces that have brought the horror of chapter 15 into being. We find it’s a two-part being. It is the courtesan who rides the beast. She can be equated with the false prophet or the lamb with two horns, the monster that comes out of the earth. She is the propaganda minister. She’s the one who gives the philosophy or the fault theology that promises salvation. “Follow me, I will give you salvation.” This is what makes her so seductive as she promises that a person can do whatever he or she wants and get away with it, that salvation is free and so on. The image then is this two-part person.

  00:47:06 So the woman, the courtesan provides the muscle and the beast, the powers in the organization that supply the muscle. Verses 3-6 describe her. She is rich, cocky and immoral and she has a title. Verse five, her title is Mystery Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth. As you’re aware, Ancient Greek does not space between words and it has no punctuation marks and therefore we can reinterpret some of these things. This particular one I would interpret it as and upon her head, a name written Mystery, namely Babylon the Great.” What the text is saying is, “I’m going to reveal to you the mystery. I’m going to show you what she really is as a mystery. And it has to be disclosed and remember mysterion, the Greek word doesn’t mean something, the tale of the murderer and so on, but rather it is that which human reason cannot come to understand. Therefore, it has to be revealed. The world cannot see what she is. So John has explained the mystery. Now we’re going to tell you what she really is and what she’s really all about. Here are her titles.

  00:48:19 Hugh Nibley notes, “Babylon like Zion is a type. If Zion is wherever the celestial order prevails, Babylon is the accumulation of worldly powers wherever it happens. Through the ages that power has actually accumulated in such world centers as Ancient Babylon. Indeed, Babylon is nothing but the inverse image of Zion. As Zion is God’s kingdom on the earth, Babylon is Satan’s and it plays by his rules.” But do not picture this earthly counterpart of hell. That’s the end of Nibley’s quote. Now I’m picking up with myself. Do not picture this earthly counterpart of hell, as CS Lewis says, as one of those sordid dens of crime that Nick Dickens so loved to paint. It is not done only in concentration camps or labor camps. In those, we see its final result. But it is conceived and ordered, moved, seconded, minuted and carried in clean, carpeted, warmed and well-lit offices by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who never have to raise their voices. That’s from The Screwtape Letters. I think that’s just beautiful description.

  00:49:35 So Babylon promotes the greatest kind of immorality. God created people to be ultimate and God said, only people are to be loved. Everything else is to be used. From the Doctrine & Covenants, I’ve given things to gladden the eye for sale or smell for raiment, for housing, everything. And I want you to use them up. Now, I don’t want you to rape the earth. You take care of the earth. But I’ve given you all of this and I want you to enjoy it. But I do not want you to love it. Only people are to be loved. But Babylon turns all that upside down and therefore it causes people to love things instead of people. And worse, to use people in order to get things.

  00:50:24 Let’s go over to chapter 18. We’ll come back. But I just want to notice, what is it that Babylon’s got? Okay, what’s out there? Verse 12, “She has merchandise of gold and silver and precious stones and pearls.” So there’s your jewelry business. “Fine linen and purple and silk and scarlet.” There’s your clothiers. “And all fine wood and all manner of vessels of ivory and all manner of vessels of most precious wood and brass and iron and marble.” There’s your housing industry. “Cinnamon and odors and ointments and frankincense.” There’s your perfume and cosmetics industry. “Wine and oil and fine flour and wheat and beasts and sheep.” There’s your food industry. “And horses and chariots.” There’s your transportation industry. And then this one, and slaves and souls of men. That last can be also read as people as chattel, so she sells people.

  00:51:24 What she does is she plays by Satan’s rules. If we go over to the Pearl of Great Price, Moses 5, we find out that Satan swears unto Cain that he would do according to Cain’s commands and he says, “And all these things were done in secret and Cain said, ‘Truly, I am Mahan the master of the great secret that I’m a murder and get gain, wherefore Cain was called Master Mahan and he gloried in his wickedness.” The secret that Satan taught Cain was how to turn life, especially human life into property. That is the great secret. People are viewed not as assets but as commodities, and they’re something that can be bought, sold, used up and discarded. Boy, you can imagine how God would feel about that when people do that to His children, His love, John.

Hank Smith: 00:52:19 Yeah, let’s talk about this for just one second, Richard, if that’s okay? I have frequently, frequently told my students exactly what you’re saying here, that people are not objects. When I go to my garage and pick up a hammer, I don’t think about that hammer’s past or its future. I’m just going to use this hammer and when I use it, I’ll throw it away and buy a new one because it is an object. But how terrible to treat a human being as an object. To not worry about its past or its future, where it came from and where he or she is going. That is the basis of the entire pornography industry is people are objects, people are objects to be used and moved on to the next thing.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:53:04 Babylon is everywhere. That’s the point. Any place where somebody is willing to turn human life for profit.

John Bytheway: 00:53:13 A couple of times we’ve already encountered, I believe in the Book of Revelation, “They will make merchandise of you. Isn’t that a phrase that we’ve seen last couple of weeks? That you will be bought and sold. I was teaching some of the latter chapters in the Book of Mormon the other day when Moroni takes over for his father Mormon in Mormon chapter eight and says, “I speak unto you as if you were present, yet you’re not. But Jesus Christ has shown you unto me and I know your doing.” And I asked my class, “Is he going to say, ‘You guys are great. You’re awesome. You’re doing so well.” No, that’s not what he says.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:53:46 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:53:47 Speaking of turning people into, this verse comes about five verses later, Mormon 8:39. “Why do ye adorn yourselves with that which hath no life and yet suffer the hungry and the needy and the naked and the sick and the afflicted?” If I could add three words to the Book of Mormon, I might put right here, “who have life” to pass by you and notice them not. And like Hank was saying, you’re treating things like people and you’re treating people like things. That sounds like what we’re getting at here in the list you read, slaves and souls of men at the end of verse 13 there.

Hank Smith: 00:54:26 I wanted to read this to both of you as we’ve just been talking about this woman of chapter 17, this immoral woman who, in my mind, she represents both sexual immorality, idolatry, I think Stephen Robinson called those the twin abominations of the Old Testament. This is from Kristen Jensen, a advocate against the pornography industry. She says, “People were created to be loved, things were created to be used. The reason why the world is in chaos is because things are being loved and people are being used.” Richard, that’s exactly what you said. “Using people as things underlies the degradation of pornography. The objectification of people is one of the major emotional and psychological harms of pornography use. Why is it so bad to objectify human beings? Because when people are used to pornography, they’re not used to it. People become things in our mind, they’re no longer subject to moral or ethical boundaries. I can kick a rock, throw it against a wall, crush it with a sledgehammer, and I don’t feel bad about it. The rock isn’t alive or sentient. There seems to be no end to the hurtful, violent, and repulsive ways that human beings can be used when they’re portrayed as objects.”

  00:55:44 She goes on a little bit later and says, “Objectification takes away human qualities and adds the qualities in an object. They don’t speak, have feelings or make choices so people are less likely to relate to, understand or be sensitive toward the person being shown. When humans begin to objectify other humans, we lose part of our humanity and diminish our divine ability to love and care for others.” She talks about a young girl who became involved in viewing pornography and then came to her parents about it. And she said a big part of this young girl’s therapy consisted of re-humanizing the people, seeing people as someone’s daughter or son, someone’s niece or cousin, someone’s best friend.

  00:56:30 Pornography is damaging in so many ways, but decreasing our humanity, our empathy for another’s pain and our ability to love may be the worst. One way to help our children is to teach them that people have feelings and that people don’t want to be treated unkindly or used. I think that draws me to Doctrine & Covenants. Right, John? “The worth of souls is great in the sight of God.” Not the worth of things is great in the sight of God. It’s the worth of souls. Some of us treat our cars or our phones better than our children or our spouse. And Richard, I just love what you’ve done here, this woman of chapter 17, isn’t she almost Satan’s economy, Babylon’s economy?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:57:16 Oh yeah, yeah. Everything’s for sale.

John Bytheway: 00:57:19 Babylon, by the time John is writing this, is no longer the cultural commercial center that it was during Babylonian captivity.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:57:27 Yeah, 500, 600 years before.

John Bytheway: 00:57:29 It remains as a symbol of that, and that’s why he’s using that word.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:57:35 Yes, his Jewish audience are very attuned to the Old Testament and the enemy in the Old Testament is Babylon. Babylon is the one that got the Jews. They were in captivity. They were in captivity to Babylon and therefore they have a horror against Babylon because they know what she is capable of and therefore this imagery, even though Babylon the city has long past its prime, nonetheless for the Jews, it was a powerful, powerful symbol.

John Bytheway: 00:58:04 Wonderful.

Hank Smith: 00:58:05 And it still is today.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:58:06 Oh yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:58:07 We sing it all the time. “Oh, Babylon. Oh, Babylon. We bid thee farewell.” What’s the other one? Babylon the great is falling.

John Bytheway: 00:58:16 If you’re ever bored, read the Bible dictionary definition of Babylon and read the 335-foot tall walls and the hanging gardens. And what was the story? It was like President Kimball or somebody went there, “Did you see Babylon?” And he said, “Well, I saw what was left of it”, or something like that.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:58:33 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:58:34 We’ve got moms and dads out there trying to have Come, Follow Me with their children. I’m anticipating kids going, “Mom, what’s fornication mom? What’s a whore? Mom, what’s…” I’m glad that we’re talking about this because we could just say, “This is a time when people are treating other people like things.” That could answer that if you wanted to simplify it for moms and dads.

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:58:57 Oh, I really like that. Back to our story then. Verses 8-13. Describe the beast.

Hank Smith: 00:59:05 Is this chapter 17 still, Richard?

Dr. Richard Draper: 00:59:06 Yes, uh-huh. The various people, rulers, et cetera, that are going to be part of her kingdom. It mentions, too, the seven mountains. This is in verse nine. The seven heads or the seven mountains on which the woman sitteth, and therefore a lot of people speculated that might be Rome. And Rome is the equivalent of Babylon. Well, I don’t object to that idea. But the seven mountains could also be apostate Jerusalem. Seven being whole or full, and it’s apostate Jerusalem. But as I look at this section, remember this is the one where if I had an angel come and say, “What would you like to know?” This is the one that I’d like to know the most about.

  00:59:47 But for me, what I see John doing here is just simply showing us Christ’s trans-temporal kingdoms that are going to have effect through this entire time. These various symbols show that. Verses 14-18 hold a surprise because it witnesses the destruction of Jerusalem. What is interesting is who destroys her. Verse 16, and the 10 horns, which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire.” Boy, talk about going down, cannibalism. These people really hate her. But of course these people who are full of hate anyway, these are nasty people who’ve been betrayed. She promised them that they would have everything and now everything is being taken away from them. In their anger, they turn around and they mutilate her. She is going down and she is going down hard.

Hank Smith: 01:00:48 Richard, is this evil turning on evil?

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:00:51 Evil. Remember, Satan has lost, in chapter 16, he’s lost his kingdom. He can no longer keep it and therefore it is now getting out of hand. This is where the whole thing implodes. Verse 14 here is important because it shows that God is actually the one who’s driving everything that’s going on during this period, which then brings us to chapter 18, which is an account of the total destruction of Babylon. Chapter 18 is composed of two pieces by angels. What’s interesting is both of these are taunt songs. They follow Old Testament taunt songs. They really get at Babylon why she is destroyed and the power behind her seduction.

  01:01:37 Verse 4 is we have another interlude. “And I heard another voice from heaven crying, ‘Come out of her, my people that ye do not partake of her sins and that ye receive not her plagues.'” Again, this little aside where there’s an appeal to the reader, the saints, to come out, leave her. And why? John’s writings reveal a very unpleasant scenario. The courtesan is first threatened by the prospect of hunger and famine. Following John’s model, there is good reason. For nature disallows crops either to be planted or grown. Reflect on chapter eight, disallows crops either to be planted or to grow. Huge economic downturns cause hyperinflation and monetary collapse. People lose billions in wealth. Further, supply lines are disrupted and foodstuffs do not flow. As a result, global hunger and famine follow.

  01:02:36 Conditions are different now than they were 75-100 years ago. Then, many people lived on the land and could therefore eke out a living. But that is not the case today. Many dwell in huge megalopolises and must rely wholly on the local stores for their goods. But what happens when there are no goods? In addition, what happens when the restraining forces of society, the police force, can no longer operate? What happens when untamed and unholy people are left to run free? Riots and looting have happened at the best of times. What will happen in the worst? The image is horrible beyond imagination. But the end result will be Babylon’s rising smoke and the ashes of the bodies of all those who will not flee from her. So she’s coming down hard.

  01:03:31 Verses 6-8 tell the saints, “You are to have no mercy on her. She brought this on herself, therefore, she deserves everything she gets.” Verses 9-19 are the response of her lovers to her fall. She’s got seven sets of lovers. Not one of them come to her rescue, even attempt to come to her rescue. They all stand afar off and they lament because she’s falling but they’re not going to lift a finger in order to help her. Kings, merchants and sea traders all lament. Each has a special reason for sorrow. The kings lament because they have lost their mistress. She who provided them with direction, force, power, and great satisfaction. The merchants weep and mourn because they have suddenly lost their markets and their overstocked wares have become worthless. Finally, the sailors cast dust on their heads and weep and wail because they have suddenly lost bazaars that fed the insatiable appetite of Babylon’s acolytes. And because these shipments are now worthless.

  01:04:38 Verses 20-24 are the great rejoicing of the righteous over the fall of Babylon. It should be noted it was not because… And this is an important point, riches are not the problem. So it should be noted that it was not because Babylon possessed great wealth that God moved against her. It was because of her profligate use of it coupled with the arrogance it brought. Because she trusted in it and put full faith in the security that it was supposed to bring, she practiced an acute form of idolatry. It was this practice which she refused to abandon that raised God’s ire, resulting in her quick, painful demise. Thus, for all the power, strength and solidity, she evidenced her amazingly rapid fall demonstrates how fragile and powerless she was all along.

  01:05:35 One of the real ironies in this thing is all of that wealth, all of the goods that the merchants had and so on, have now become worthless. But they are worse than worthless because they’re now stuck with them and they either have to harbor them or they have to pay to have them shipped off and removed. They really get hit by the fall of Babylon.

John Bytheway: 01:05:59 I was looking at the last verse, “In her was found the blood of the prophets and of saints and of all that were slain upon the earth.” So there’s little bit of penalty adversity I mean coming here. And it also kind of tells us we won’t completely escape some of the tribulations. Is that an assumption I can make seeing that?

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:06:18 It’s not even an assumption. There’s twice in the Book of Revelation, you’ve covered both of these already, where it says, Look, here is the patience of the saints. Those who are destined to prison are going to go to prison, but be patient. Know that by and large the corporate church is going to get through. I will move with power and therefore even individuals will be protected. But we’re going through a painful period. Just know we’re going to go through a painful period.

Hank Smith: 01:06:44 I really was touched by verse 4. “I heard a voice from heaven.” So before Babylon falls, there’s the call to the people, “You can get out of there.”

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:06:56 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 01:06:57 Come out.

Hank Smith: 01:06:58 “Come out of her, my people that you be not partakers of her sins, that you receive not of her plagues.” I would not be grateful to my heritage if I didn’t mention him. I think my uncle Greg McDonough up in Salt Lake would get after me if I didn’t mention my great, great-grandfather, Richard Smith, who wrote the hymn, Israel, Israel, God is Calling. I mean you can almost hear it in the background of these chapters. “Israel, Israel, God is calling, calling thee from lands of woe. Babylon the great is falling, God shall all her towers o’erthrow.” What should you do? Right, John? “Come to Zion. Come to Zion.” Over and over Israel, Israel, canst thou linger still in error’s gloomy ways. Come to Zion.” So I really appreciate that, that here, this woman, wouldn’t Nephi call her the great and spacious building, Richard?

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:07:52 Sure.

Hank Smith: 01:07:52 It’s coming down. This entire economy is coming down and you can get out before it comes down. What did Nephi say? “Great, was the fall thereof.” I think that’s what you’re mentioning here, aren’t you Richard? You’re saying-

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:08:07 Yes.

Hank Smith: 01:08:08 This whole thing is coming down.

Dr. Richard Draper: 01:08:10 Yeah, it’s going to come down. It’s going to come down fast. Fast. So we better be prepared.

John Bytheway: 01:08:18 Please join us for part two of this podcast.