John Bytheway: 00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Christopher Blythe: Revelation 6:14.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 00:07 John sees a vision now. It’s again in heaven. It’s a symbol. It’s a series of symbols that have a meaning on earth, and we can read this meaning. I’m just going to stick to the King James here. I’m going to tell you what it says in the Joseph Smith translation. “And there appeared a great wonder in Heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of 12 stars. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pain to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and 10 horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of Heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.”

  01:16 We know what Joseph says about these symbols and that’s really important, but just the images that we’re watching; here’s a woman that’s precious, she’s a wonder in heaven. She’s giving birth and a dragon wants to get her baby. If we don’t read this just as symbols, this is the Savior. If Revelation is being told in Nephi 1, which I believe it is, Nephi is seeing parts of the same vision, here he sees the Virgin Mary. He sees the condescension of God, and I believe this is the parallel here. He’s seeing an image of the Virgin Mary who, when the Savior is born, we have the slaughter of the innocents. We have people trying to prevent him from coming to earth, but the Lord’s going to protect him and eventually he’s going to be caught up unto God and to his throne. He doesn’t get to rule yet, but he’s going to be caught up to his throne.

  02:16 There’s a literal way to read this. This is a direct thing. You have the Virgin Mary, you have the Savior, and we have this conflict. As Latter-day Saints, Joseph tells us that this woman should be read as a symbol, at least when we’re giving it in its millennial fulfillment. This is a symbol of the Church and that the Church is going to be in labor trying to bring forth a child and that child is the Kingdom of God. This is the great coming forth here. The Kingdom is going to happen, but the woman has to finish her thing. It’s going to face persecution. We’ll see here that as an early Latter-day Saint would read this, they would think of the woman fleeing into the wilderness after the Savior ascending to heaven as a symbol of the apostasy. The woman is taken into the wilderness where there’s a place and she waits there a while, because we’re going to have an apostasy.

  03:14 I’m not certain on that interpretation, but this is how it was often read among early Latter-day Saints. She’s gone somewhere else for a while, and she’s going to come back. Then we switch here and I think maybe we should stop and go here. So early Latter-day Saints loved this passage. The Prophet Joseph loved it. Revelation 12 is really the only place in the Book of Revelation that the Joseph Smith translation offers us an extensive new reading of the text, which is important, but it also shows up in other things.

  03:48 Do you guys know about the architecture of the Nauvoo Temple and how it relates to this passage?

Hank Smith: 03:52 Yeah, it’s amazing.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 03:53 Isn’t it amazing? We have this in one journal entry, but because it actually shows up in the architecture, it makes a lot of sense that this is what Joseph intended. Joseph was hands-on about the structure of the Nauvoo Temple. Just like Brigham Young, he said that it had been revealed to him. Wandle Mace, one of the laborers on the temple, actually records what the architecture is intended to represent. He says, “The architecture of the temple was purely original and unlike anything in existence, being a representation of the church, the bride, the lamb’s wife.” And he refers to this passage in Revelation 12 and goes on, “The Nauvoo Temple beautifully shows this at the bottom of the structure.” Remember the woman is standing on the moon, so the moonstone is at the bottom, not like in the Salt Lake Temple, but the bottom in the Nauvoo temple. And then there are pillars and the pillars have a sun on top of them, so cloved in the sun and then the stars are on the very top. Specifically, some people have pointed out that the top of the Nauvoo Temple has a crown structure, made as part and 12 stars are right there.

  05:05 Here is a symbol of the Church and out of the Church, the Temple gives birth to the Kingdom of God. All of these are temple symbols. The temple is what’s going to bring forth the millennium on earth, is Joseph or the Father’s message through the building of the Nauvoo Temple. It’s powerful. This is a really powerful idea. So much more in Nauvoo begins to be a conversation about how to bring together the millennium. We are fortunate that the Joseph Smith papers, that has brought more of these documents to life, but one of the things that’s occurring in Nauvoo is Joseph builds up a group, the Council of Fifty, which he calls the Kingdom of God. The Church just five years ago about, released a set of hundreds of pages of documents of conversations between Joseph and this group of 50 men who are asked to imagine what the millennial government will look like. Joseph is so eager to help bring this about.

  06:09 The reason I bring it up, it’s kind of fun, is that there’s a debate over what the flag of this Kingdom should look like. People give a variety of different ideas. Brigham Young is going to actually tell us the flag of the Kingdom of God should have the American flag and then every nation that joins should be added to it in a small square and we’re just going to have this ginormous flag. But one person in the Council of fifty wanted a flag that was this woman in the wilderness. It was the symbol of the Kingdom of God, even though it’s actually the symbol of the Church, that’s what’s going to bring the Kingdom of God, the same way with the 12 stars around her head and the moon at her feet and the sun through her. So this symbol is really important. It is the symbol of the coming of the millennium.

  06:54 Now, as John’s having these revelations, he moves back. He just saw the woman who he would’ve recognized as Mary symbolically, and then a dragon attack her. In verse seven, it picks up again here. These are very important verses. If we had an Old Testament scholar with us, they might point out that the figure of Satan, the Satan Lucifer, the fallen angel doesn’t appear clearly in the Old Testament. Now, we of course read Isaiah 14 to be a comment about Lucifer and I think that’s true, but from a secular point of view, people argue that you just can’t find that story there. Well, even if it wasn’t, it’s revealed right here in the sacred writ in verse seven. “And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth and his angels were cast out with him.”

  08:07 Here is the moment, we saw this moment with first part of the vision, we see the Savior, what he went through, the Savior ascended to heaven, his Resurrection. We saw an apostasy story, the narrative, and now we’re jumping back to see what happened in the pre-existence, where Lucifer falls and he’s going to deceive the whole world. We know that Joseph has a vision of this exact scene in section 76, where he sees Lucifer fall, an angel in authority, a similar thing of course that the prophet Lehi has in Nephi 2, seeing this moment. But Joseph describes it and he sees a moment where, “And while we were yet in the spirit, the Lord commanded us that we should write the vision.” It’s going to use the same language or revelation here. “For we beheld Satan, that old serpent, even the Devil who rebelled against God and sought to take the Kingdom of our God and his Christ.” That’s what we’re seeing. “Wherefore he maketh war with the saints of God, and encompasseth them round about.”

  09:11 This is how Joseph describes it and John describes it as Satan deceiving the whole world. It’s going to go on here and talk about how that scene, and remember this is a parallel with Nephi 1. So, if you’re thinking where is this showing up in Nephi 1 now?” Think the great abominable Church, all the things that are occurring there with the persecution of the saints, as that’s what we’re about to see, the great apostasy. “And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength in the Kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they loved not their lives unto death. Therefore rejoice, O Heavens, and you that dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! For the devil has come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath, but a short time.”

  10:09 There’s that line, when you think of, “Is the devil upping his tactics in the last days?” This is that line there. I think this might be the perspective just from the pre-existence in general. He knoweth he only has a short time, he’s going to do what he can, but Heavenly Father has a plan and, “When the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man-child.” The Church he persecutes. And so, “The women were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness into her place, where she is nourished for a time. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman that he might cause her to be carried away with the flood. And the earth helped the woman and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood, which the dragon had cast of its mouth.”

  10:53 I love this. Here is an image of the persecution of the devil and this eucatastrophe thing. When things are going to be bad, the flood’s coming and the Lord had a plan. The earth opens its mouth and takes in the flood. “And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keeps the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus.” Chapter 12. I think chapter six meant a lot to Joseph, but we know chapter 12 did too. He is thinking about this passage and I think it gives him a lot of hope. This is the message of; what is the mission of the Restoration? It’s to bring forth the Kingdom of God on earth, to recognize that yeah, there’s going to be persecution. God’s got a plan, He’s in control of this the whole way and our job is to keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 11:45 This is a great lens to put on chapter 12, because this is how the prophet Joseph Smith saw this chapter. Let me see if I caught you right here, that this woman represents the Church and you talked about the Nauvoo Temple and there it is with the sun is right in the middle of that temple, those big beautiful sun stones, maybe a little bit further than halfway up. And the moon stones are at the bottom and then the stars are actually above the sun stones and they go around the rim of that Nauvoo Temple. So here she is, a woman clothed with the sun in the middle, the moon at the bottom and the stars at the top, where I might look at the Nauvoo Temple and say, “Oh, that’s the Celestial Kingdom, the Terrestrial Kingdom and the Telestial Kingdom.” That’s not what Joseph was talking about here.

  12:29 He was talking about this woman in Revelation 12:1, and the Church is trying to give birth or build Zion. This child is Zion, trying to build Zion on the earth and Satan wants to stop that. Could I say in the temple, the covenants I make in the temple are, you can pick up on this language there, to build the Kingdom of God?

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 12:51 Build Zion, yeah.

Hank Smith: 12:53 To build Zion. There I am inside that temple, which is represented here in chapter 12, verse one, this woman that’s trying to build Zion. I want to quote here from our friend Anthony Sweat. This is a BYU Devotional called, “We Need an Endowment.” And he says, “The temple teaches us at its highest pinnacle covenant to consecrate our entire lives to God, dedicating and making holy our time, talents and means to do His will and build his Kingdom. It teaches us to love and serve others, offering of our abundance to help those in need.” He says, “There is power in consecrating our lives in service of God and His children that enables us to find our personal path and purpose.” What a fascinating tie-in that I can read chapter 12, verse one, see the temple. I think the Salt Lake Temple has the similar symbols of the moon, stars and sun.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 13:52 It’s a different order. Joshua Matson explained this to me the other day actually where he said, “This is set up for the Book of Abraham, a different symbolic structure.” So our temples are amazing that they give us different messages in different places.

Hank Smith: 14:06 But the Nauvoo temple, that’s here in Revelation 12?

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 14:09 Yes.

Hank Smith: 14:10 There I am in the temple, concentrating to build Zion and I should see that there is a dragon who wants to destroy Zion and me apparently, because he is wroth with the woman, the Church in verse 17, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, those who keep the commandments of God and have a testimony of Jesus. So I can see myself in Revelation 12.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 14:37 Absolutely, you’re part of this. We’re a precursor to it, but we come out of the temple a royal priesthood, we come out kings and priests. This is the message of the Millennium. The temple is how the revolution begins and eventually it’s going to have this beautiful fulfillment with the coming of the Savior, but we’re definitely part of these passages.

Hank Smith: 14:58 Oh, that’s a great way to view this. Again, I don’t know how the first century Saints would’ve viewed this, but I love that lens.

John Bytheway: 15:06 I’m impressed by this nickname for Satan or this description, “The accuser of our brethren.” It was just in my class the other day, we were talking about how Satan just doesn’t play fair, because he’ll tempt you to do something, “Do this,” and everyone does it and nobody cares and no one will know. And then as soon as you do it, he’s; “Oh, how could you possibly have done that? You terrible… And he becomes that accuser. And I wrote in my margin, we can follow our advocate or our accuser, because he doesn’t play fair, tempts you to do it and then accuses you. What an interesting name for him. Why would anyone want to follow somebody who accuses them?

  15:50 Then in verse 11, we often talk about the war in Heaven, referenced in verse seven. I like to ask my students, “Did we have spiritual F-16s?” Because an F-16 is a beautiful thing, but what were our weapons? Verse 11 tells us more the nature of this war. “They overcame by the blood of the lamb,” was the atonement active in pre-mortal existence? And the Book of Mormon speaks about the Atonement which was prepared from the foundation of the world. So yes it was, and by the word of their testimony, perhaps our weapons were the blood of the lamb and the word of our… It was the Atonement and our testimonies.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 16:30 It’s powerful. I think that’s right.

Hank Smith: 16:33 John, that’s a fascinating idea, the accuser. That could be our culture today as well. I’m going to find things. I’m going to accuse other people.

John Bytheway: 16:42 Let me quote from President Uchtdorf. This was a talk called “The Point of No Return” in April of 2007, and he said the scriptures call him the accuser, because he wants us to feel that we are beyond forgiveness. Like I said, tempts you to sin and then tells you how awful you are when you do exactly what he said. He’s an accuser.

Hank Smith: 17:02 The opening paragraph of the Come, Follow Me manual mentions this chapter, chapter 12. It says, “Imagine a woman travailing in birth and pain to be delivered. Now imagine a great red dragon having seven heads and 10 horns hovering over the woman, poised to devour her child as soon as it was born. To understand these verses of John’s revelation, remember that these images represent the church and Kingdom of God, and the peril they would face. For the saints who experienced intense persecution in John’s day, victory over evil may not have seemed likely. This victory can also be hard to foresee in a day like ours, when the adversary is at war with the saints and has power over all kindreds, tongues and nations.” That’s from the next chapter, chapter 13.

  17:49 “But the end of John’s revelation gloriously shows that good will prevail over evil. Babylon will fall and the saints will come out of great tribulation with robes of white, not because their robes were never stained, but because the saints will have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” What a great paragraph to sum up what we’ve talked about here in chapter 12.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 18:15 I like that a lot. The manual is very good for chapter 12 and for 14, I definitely think it is essential for our reading of these passages. Very helpful resource. Chapter 13 is a highly symbolic chapter, if we’re thinking about Daniel and the coming of these corrupt kingdoms. This is a similar thing happening here in chapter 13. It’s discussing a beast that’s come forward. Now the beast is described in different ways in different revelations, but this represents corrupt government, corrupt apostate church, corrupt government. The beast has this power given to him where the dragon, meaning the devil, is… What do we call this in Nephi 1? This is the great and abominable church of the devil and described as a beast in this passage here. It is a representation of the great apostasy. Many conservative Christians are waiting for a last day’s tyrant. Certainly, that’s very possible.

  19:21 When it discusses this beast in 14, “He deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast.” This is a false prophet that comes, the messenger of the beast, “Saying to them that dwell on the earth that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he caused all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the wisdom of his name. Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is six hundred threescore and six.”

  20:15 I remember a little kid reading this and I actually heard a rock band have this quote within their song and thinking, “This is the scariest thing I’ve ever read in my life.” Beginning in the middle-ages this begins to be read as a son of the devil born, a literal anti-Christ figure that appears on the earth and will lead the earth and then Jesus has to fight him. There’s nothing in here that suggests anything like that popular culture idea. Is this the son of the devil? No, there’s nothing here that comments on that.

  20:49 This is a tyrant that’s apparently in this causes the world to wander off them, has great mysteries and then he’s given this weird number: 666. This is where biblical studies can really help us. I remember Richard Draper is the first person that gave this insight that readjusted the way I was thinking about this passage and he said, “666, or in some manuscripts 616, is a reference to the Emperor Nero who persecuted the saints.” So either literally a reference to that historic moment in time or a reference to, just like how these two prophets will be like Moses and Elijah, there’ll be this figure in the last days that’s like Nero.

  21:37 The key thing for us and particularly if we’re going to focus on how the restoration is interpreted in this passage, this is out of Nephi. This is the great abominable Church of the Devil. What is the number? 666. I think probably our biblical studies scholars are right, but when early apostles tried to interpret this, they recognized it was the apostasy. They thought the beast was the apostate Christian Church and the 666 number is a reference to apostate branches of Christianity, which it was saying there’s 666 of them.

  22:12 Now, that’s probably not a correct interpretation, but understanding that this was both then and now by the Church understood not as a concern that we’re waiting for an Antichrist, that’s never been our vision, but that the apostasy occurred. It was a real thing and that the Lord is going to fix that and he’s going to fix it in chapter 14. Chapter 14, we immediately have an image of Mount Zion. Great. Think Malachi here, the saviors from Mount Zion. “And I looked and lo, a Lamb stood on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 having His Father’s name written on their foreheads. And I heard a voice from Heaven as the voice of many waters.” The Savior’s voice described as many waters in chapter one, and, “As the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps. And they sung as it were a new song before the throne.” Look up that new song if you’re interested. The Revelation gives us some comments on that too.

  23:10 “And before the four beasts, and the elders; and no man could learn that song, but the 144,000, which were redeemed from the earth.” It describes that they’re not defiled with women, so these are people that keep their chastity covenant. They’re redeemed among men, they’re the first fruits of the Lamb and in their mouth there’s no guile. They’re without fault before the throne of God. All this is being talked about here and then we have a reference in verse six, “And I saw another angel fly in the midst of Heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach it unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation and kindred, and tongue, and people.” This is that beautiful reference to the restoration in the last days. We’ve had a lot of references to apostasy and now we have the great restoring angel mentioned here.

  24:04 There’s a debate sometimes among even Church scholars on whether this passage refers to Moroni or if this is something that we’ve come up with over time. Did Joseph really think this? Joseph really thinks this. In section 1:33, he refers to this verse here and he says, “The angel has flown through the midst of Heaven.” It’s a past tense. “The angel has come and restored.” And he uses that same language of everlasting gospel. It only appears here in his discussions or Revelation, and in reference to the angel Moroni. He associates this verse with that great angel who was prepared, who John may have known very little about as he wrote these verses, but that we know something about, because of the Restoration, as he was prepared to play this role to get the everlasting gospel started again and through what means, what’s the great resource that God is fighting the apostasy, if you read 1 Nephi or this, it’s through the Book of Mormon, great witness of that everlasting gospel found in the Book of Mormon, that is how God is going to combat that beast in the previous chapter. I love that.

John Bytheway: 25:18 Speaking of the Nauvoo Temple, what was the original Moroni on the Nauvoo Temple? Was he standing or was he flying?

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 25:27 He’s flying.

John Bytheway: 25:28 Yeah. He was a weathervane and if you look at the Washington DC temple, the design, the sculpture of the Moroni there, on the Salt Lake Temple, a trumpet in one hand, nothing in his left hand, but in the Washington DC temple, a trumpet and the plates in the left hand. I always think of that when I see this verse having the everlasting gospel, and that’s, footnote 6C, it says Book of Mormon. You’re saying that’s how Joseph saw that, that was Moroni?

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 25:58 Absolutely. Section 1:33 and the way he describes Moroni coming in the Pearl of Great Price, both has allusions to this same passage. This isn’t something that we’ve come up later on as a folklore tidbit. This is something that Joseph believed and it’s a beautiful thing when you read the Book of Revelation and you think of Moroni being this angel here and John being the ascending angel, the 144,000 who are in heaven being prepared, it really does remind us that we’re going to do these hard things here, but this is Heavenly Father. He’s got his hand in it the whole way. He’s really making sure. This is the coming for the Kingdom. This is what we’re waiting for. I love what John said saying, “Remember the Lord’s prayer here; thy Kingdom come.” The Lord has paved the way to bring about his Kingdom and he’s using figures, in this case both the last book of the Book of Mormon, our prophet there is being called in as one of these great angels and the last book of the Bible, he’s being called in to play their role.

  27:03 And that’s what the Book of Revelation is. It is a book of hope. Even if we came forward and we read about Babylon falling, all of this is pointing us to these great things. “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me,” This is after the Millennium started here, “Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea saith the Spirit that they may rest from their labors; and their works do follow them.” And then we have it, “And I looked, and behold a white cloud and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man.” Think Daniel seven, “This is one like unto the Son of man comes on a cloud, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand, a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat in the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle and reap: for the time has come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped. And another angel came out of the temple,” which is in heaven, he also had a sharp sickle.

  28:15 Goes down, verse 19, “And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the wine press was trodden without the city, and the blood came out of the winepress.” We’re going to leave it with a really, really disturbing verse there, but the actual message here is that the Savior appears, he comes and the judgment comes forth. The patience of the saints, we’re waiting for this moment. The main point is that the system of government and religion and cruelty that’s been allowed to spread on the earth, that we saw in chapter 13, is going to be no more. Babylon, a great symbol is fallen, is fallen. We see right after the reference to the angel when I read before. This is a message of great hope and great peace. We’re part of this story. We are through the temple and we are waiting for that final moment.

  29:14 What Nick told you guys before about the problems of extremism or misinterpretation is really important and we talked about how we could look forward to the suffering of other people, but I don’t think we should lose track of who we are. We’re members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This is our hope. This is our message.

Hank Smith: 29:36 Chris, so would I be right in saying in chapter 13 and 14 that I’ve got evil versus good? As I look at this beast, even in verse four, the people around it are saying; they worship the beast, “Who is like unto the beast? Who could even try to defeat the beast?” He’s making war with the saints in verse seven. I found verse 11 interesting. He tries to look like a lamb or maybe John is describing it this way. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spake like a dragon. Maybe this deception, because the Savior’s been the lamb throughout this book and here the beast is trying to be a counterfeit lamb. Verse 14, he deceives them that dwell on the earth and he’s marking people and then chapter 14 is almost the exact opposite. Here’s another mark that’s happening, chapter 14 verse one. It’s a different mark. They have the father’s name in their forehead, so there’s almost two marks. You can have the mark of the beast or you can have the mark of the father, and you’ve got this list of what it’s like to have the mark of the father and then the end of 14 is this showdown between good and evil. The sickle is coming to… You got to make the choice. Did I read that correctly?

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 30:53 Yes. This figure, traditionally, people have called the Antichrist. This last tyrant, he’s a scholar. Even we, probably when we teach these verses in our classes, probably say, “The Antichrist is not a scriptural term. This is a term used like it is in the Book of Mormon as a figure that’s against Christ and could be any number of people.” But this is a false Christ figure, isn’t it? In the way it’s described, exactly as you suggest here, he looks like a lamb, but speaks as the dragon. He’s deceiving us. Pretty scary. And then who is like unto the beast? He’s who you want to be. He’s the one that your worship, you should be turned towards to.

Hank Smith: 31:34 No one can defeat this beast.

John Bytheway: 31:36 I was listening to Brother Jeffrey Marsh talk about this idea, Hank, of a counterfeit. I look in Revelation 13:11, “I beheld another beast coming out of the earth and he had two horns like a lamb.” Well, I don’t know about you, but every lamb I’ve ever seen does not have two horns. And he was saying maybe this, he’s trying to look like the real lamb, but he’s a counterfeit. Maybe that plays into the same idea right here of a false messiah being coming forth.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 32:07 This is just for fun, because we’re talking, but I think 13 is really so interesting on his ability to deceive, “So that he maketh fire come down from heaven,” and this reminds us of the Elijah scene. They can’t bring fire down from heaven, but this guy is a real deceiver. He can bring fire from heaven.

Hank Smith: 32:23 John is clothing him in language, it makes him seem unstoppable, done on purpose. Chapter 13, he’s an unstoppable beast and yet chapter 14, verse one, here’s this unstoppable beast and then here’s the lamb. “A lamb stood on the Mount Zion.” I just love the imagery. Here’s this unstoppable beast, who’s going to stop him? The lamb.

John Bytheway: 32:47 Hank, what you just said reminds me of this idea that the history of the world has already been written, that Nephi saw it, the brother of Jared saw it, Moses saw… Prophets have seen it, and here’s John is seeing it right up to the end and it gives us hope. And there’s a statement that Elder Holland made, which I just love this. I love the imagery of it. He said, “The future of this world has long been declared. The final outcome between good and evil is already known. There’s absolutely no question as to who wins, because the victory has already been posted on the scoreboard. The only really strange thing in all of this is that we are still down here on the field trying to decide which team’s jersey we want to wear.”

  33:28 It shouldn’t be a hard decision if the score’s already on the scoreboard. I heard a Christian comedian once and he was joking about people that are devil worshipers and he said, “Well, where would they learn about the devil?” He said, “Well, they’d learn about it from the Bible. Well, did they read how it ends?” Which is what we’ve just done here. We know that there’s an ultimate triumph. Yeah, let’s decide which team’s jersey we want to wear.

Hank Smith: 33:53 Yeah. I really like that. Here comes the final battle. It reminds me of C.S. Lewis saying, “The second coming was not a time of choosing. It’s a time you find out what you have chosen.” You have already done your choosing long before the Savior comes.

John Bytheway: 34:08 Wow. That’s good.

Hank Smith: 34:11 Chris, this has been fantastic. Going through these chapters with you and looking through the lens of the Restoration and hearing how Joseph saw these chapters and others, this has just been eye-opening and a lot of fun. Let’s say I’ve been listening on my commute or I’ve been folding laundry or help mowing the lawn, might be a little cold for that I guess, I said, “Hey, I listened to the followHIM podcast. Here’s what I learned.”

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 34:36 Yeah, that’s such an important question. I hope people walk away with the sense that the Book of Revelation, it has some scenes, they’re a little dark, but this isn’t a hopeless book. This isn’t a scary book. This is a book about how Heavenly Father is in control and really when we recognize how the prophet Joseph used it, this is a message of the Restoration. This is about the temple. This is about how you and I can participate in the Kingdom of God even before it’s about to unroll. It hasn’t come yet, but we’re already blessed to be able to participate in it right now.

Hank Smith: 35:13 Fantastic, and we can take part. Even right now, I can take part. I can get myself to the temple. I can get myself doing the work of the Lord in my very own home.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 35:24 That is right. You can be like these 144,000 saviors on Mount Zion in chapter 14. We already are commissioned and called to play that part.

John Bytheway: 35:34 We get to be part of the winding up scene. That’s another thing I love about these visions. When Moses saw it said, “He beheld all the inhabitants of the earth.” That means he saw us. That’s just fascinating to think about as a huge, huge family of God, we get to be part of that.

Hank Smith: 35:51 Wonderful. Chris, thank you for being with us. We’ve just enjoyed our time with you.

John Bytheway: 35:56 And yes, I’ve got to start following Angels and Seerstones, and I’m going to enjoy that hearing from you again, Chris. Thank you.

Dr. Christopher Blythe: 36:03 Oh, thanks John.

Hank Smith: 36:05 Yeah. We want to thank Dr. Christopher Blythe for being with us today. What a treat. It’s been really fun. We want to thank our Executive Producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always, every episode, remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re talking Christmas on followHIM.

John Bytheway: 36:26 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.C-O. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study. If you could subscribe to, rate, review and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra and Annabelle Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 37:05 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.