Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host and I’m here with my servant leader co-host, John Bytheway. John, we are talking about servant leadership today a little bit in the Gospel of John, and I thought that’s John. You are a servant leader, wouldn’t you say?

John Bytheway: 00:00:21 Yeah. Hank, bring your shoes over. I have my shoe shining kit out. I will do that for you.

Hank Smith: 00:00:26 Okay. Yes, I will come right over. We have so much to get to today, John. I don’t know how we’re going to get through it all, but we needed a Bible expert with us. Who’s joining us today?

John Bytheway: 00:00:36 We brought Dr. Camille Fronk Olson, who has been with us before in Old Testament. She is my favorite Tremonton person, Tremonton, Utah. When I go there, I drop Camille’s name and people are so nice to me.

Hank Smith: 00:00:52 Does it say it right there where you drive in?

John Bytheway: 00:00:54 Aren’t they making a monument there? The Camille Fronk Olson is from Tremonton.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:00:59 It says John Bytheway was here.

Hank Smith: 00:01:00 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:01:04 Yes. We’re delighted to have Camille with us again because I know this is going to be a great day. And let me just tell you about Camille. She served a full-time mission to Toulouse, France before she earned a master’s degree in Ancient Near Eastern Studies and a PhD in Sociology of the Middle East. She was formerly the Dean of Students at LDS Business College. They now call that Ensign College.

  00:01:25 She’s an associate professor of Ancient Scripture, or she was at Brigham University. She served on the Young Women’s General Board, the Church’s Teacher Development Curriculum Committee. And I’m reading this bio from the back of one of her many books called Women of the Old Testament. That’s why I think we wanted her here today, Hank, because we’re talking about some of the women in the New Testament a little bit, in these chapters. And at one time she was my boss too, in fact. I think I’m not teaching at the BYU Salt Lake Center if it’s not for Camille. So speaking of servant leadership, speaking of charity and kindness. So we’re glad to have you. Welcome back.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:02:03 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:02:04 Yeah, she hired me too, John. I still remember that phone call. It was a very good day. Camille, we’re going to spend our time in three big time chapters today, Matthew 26, Mark 14, and John 13. So where should we get started?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:02:19 Well, it seems like as I look through the lesson, the focus of this week’s Come Follow Me studies is primarily the Last Supper and especially the sacrament, the administration of the sacrament in the Last Supper and events leading right up to it, right before, according to Matthew and Mark.

  00:02:40 So let me just make an observation as before we just start looking into an event that happened right before and what Matthew and Mark have to tell us, I’d also like to look a little bit in Luke 22 because Luke 22 also talks about the Last Supper.

  00:02:57 Then the last part of all of those chapters, Matthew 26, Mark 14 and Luke 22, they go to Gethsemane and Christ suffering in Gethsemane. And that seems to be the focus of a later lesson. So we’re going to focus, I’m thinking for this week’s lesson, primarily on what’s happened with at the Last Supper from the synoptic gospels, and then the first chapter of the Last Supper in John, John 13, which is very unique and not found in any of the others.

  00:03:29 So let me just do this major observation I think is fascinating. With the Last Supper, the synoptic gospels, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, focus almost exclusively on the administration of the sacrament. There’s not the major teachings that Christ gave in the Last Supper. And it’s just one in about 10, 12 verses in each of those gospels. And then you get to John and John spends, if we count the great intercessory prayer as part of it, five chapters are on the Last Supper. A fourth of the entire book of John he spends on the Last Supper and he never mentions the administration of the sacrament. So in so many ways, this is where you really see how different the synoptic gospels are from the Gospel of John.

  00:04:24 It also brings up an interesting question is when in the evening did he administer the sacrament? Was it before the washing of feet? Was it after? Was Judas Iscariot there for the washing of feet? And see, because you don’t have that chronology, it’s an interesting thing just to kind of keep in mind as we’re looking at this. But I think why would John not mention the administration of the sacrament? And I don’t pretend to know his mind, but then I think, is there someplace else in the Gospel of John where he does discuss really the principles of the sacrament?

  00:05:04 And he does; in John chapter six with the Bread of Life sermon. The principles involved with, “If we do not eat of his flesh and drink of his blood, we don’t have part with him.” But that’s just an interesting observation as far as where John spends his focus. And we’ll do just that first chapter of it today. So can we just start with Matthew 26? And let’s lead up to this incredible evening that Jesus spent with his apostles.

  00:05:36 And this is sacred ground, we are in sacred ground when we get to this last week. And especially as it’s just nearing so close to the end of the Savior’s mortal life. And He knows that. I mean, He’s known that from the triumphal entry when He says, “Mine hour is come,” according to John. It is like He knows his days are numbered, where He is here on Earth as a mortal, and He’s very clear in his choices of how He spends His time. Here’s just a little piece of it, but you can feel that just crescendo almost as we get closer, and closer, and closer.

  00:06:18 Chapter 26, we start out, and it came to pass when Jesus had finished all these sayings. He’s just been probably the evening before or the evening before that, been up on the Mount of Olives with His 12, teaching about His second coming and helping them to understand that.

  00:06:38 So after those things He said to his disciples, verse 2, “Ye know that after two days is the feast of the Passover and the Son of Man is betrayed to be crucified.” I mean, how many times is He saying these kinds of things? And the more I study this, the more I think how confusing it must have been to His followers. We have the benefit of hindsight, and it just seems like, well, of course we know what’s happening. They have seen Him get out of scrapes here and there, where people have tried to trap Him and then He’ll just disappear out of the crowd and that He gets the best of them all the time. And this kind of terminology is just totally confusing to them. And then verse three, “Then assemble together the chief priests and scribes and the elders of the people under the palace of the high priest who was called Caiaphas and consulted that they might take Jesus by subtlety.”

  00:07:40 Interesting. We’re down in the footnotes it says, “Treachery or cunning.” They’re scheming so that they could kill Him. I think I just want to, as we start this chapter, remind us that this would not be all priests, or scribes, or elders of the people. There’s some evidence that there are some very remarkable men who are part of the Sanhedrin that will defend and protect Jesus that we’ll see again later and we’ve seen earlier.

  00:08:09 So we get on this far edge that are out to get him. And they said in verse 5, “But not on the feast day, not on Passover unless there be an uproar among the people.” Again, part of this is that’s a sacred day and you want to do your evil on another day besides that.

Hank Smith: 00:08:31 You want to do your evil on a non-holy day.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:08:34 Yeah. So that scheme has started. And that’s going on in the background with all of this. So we keep that in mind. But now we get to verse 6, that when Jesus was in Bethany, and remember Bethany is just on the other side of the Mount of Olives, two miles about, and Jesus had spent every night during this last week in Bethany and then walked with his disciples across into Jerusalem each day. And we get the idea they’re staying at Martha, and Mary, and Lazarus who live in Bethany, probably staying at their house. And so when we read Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the Leper, we go, “Who is Simon the Leper?”

Hank Smith: 00:09:19 Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:09:21 And there’s not any real help on that because it’s called Martha’s house in Luke 10. Wonder if this could be Martha’s father who maybe passed away and she has the house? Or if this is a whole different house that they are at, we don’t know. But suddenly, we start reading this story that sounds so much like the beginning of John chapter 12, where a woman there also has an alabaster box, a very precious ointment and poured on the feet of Jesus in John 12 as he sat at meat. So it’s very similar except the woman there is Mary of Bethany, the sister of Martha.

  00:10:07 So other than that, it’s an alabaster vial, probably. What we seem to understand about this ointment from John 12, it’s spikenard, which is extremely expensive because you have to import it from Asia. I mean we’re talking far East Asia, probably around China area or some places where this would’ve come from. And they put it in these little vials made of alabaster and therefore, it’s all encased in that. And the only way you get to the oil is to break the neck of the vial.

  00:10:41 So she has some of this, probably like a years’ wages just-

Hank Smith: 00:10:46 Oh wow.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:10:47 … to afford this ointment. This would be extremely expensive. And when the disciple saw it, what did they say? “They had indignation,” verse 8, “and said, To what purpose is that waste?” There’s something… Saying why would someone spend so much money? And there they are. In her case, she’s pouring it on his head. Mary in chapter 12 is pouring it on his feet, and it’s Judas Iscariot in John 12 who has the trouble with it. It’s just specifically him. Whereas, in Matthew 26, it seems like there’s more of them, His disciples plural, and they say, “And this ointment might have been sold for much and given to the poor” we could have been helping the poor. You know what I thought this time as I was looking at it and preparing for this? I have heard recently some members of the church that could even say, “Why do we spend so much money on temples? Oh, and so many temples, it’s expensive and couldn’t we use that money better to help the poor?”

  00:11:52 I mean in some ways it’s a very similar argument here. Would you think? And then Jesus understood it. He understands more than we give him credit for doesn’t He? He said unto them, “Why trouble ye the woman? For she has brought a good work upon me that ye have the poor always with you but me ye have not always for in that she has poured this ointment on my body.” You look down in the footnote, another Greek translation, “To prepare me for my burial.” So something strikes me very much right there. This is the first time I think of in any scripture that we see anyone besides Jesus talking about that he’s going to die.

Hank Smith: 00:12:40 Yeah, she understood.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:12:42 Rather than trying to prevent it, which everyone else wants to. What is she doing?

Hank Smith: 00:12:46 She’s preparing Him. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:12:48 Preparing Him and supporting Him. Here’s the one in the Mark account, Mark 14 has a Joseph Smith translation to go along with it. It’s in verse 8 in Mark 14. You look in the footnote for this, and I’ll just say again that Joseph Smith translation is so helpful in this last week in the study that we have. We read in verse 8, “She has done what she could.” Which is an interesting phrase too. This is something she can do to support and help and she can’t do everything and isn’t that us? He recognizes we do what we can.

Hank Smith: 00:13:26 I love that. Leave her alone. She’s trying.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:13:30 Yes. “And this which she hath done unto me shall be had in remembrance in generations to come wheresoever my gospel shall be preached for verily, she has come beforehand to anoint my body to the burying.” She’s doing this early. The John 12 account happens about a week before the resurrection, probably the Sabbath before he’s in the tomb. But I asked the question, is this the same story? And it’s told with different details. It is so similar. But what is interesting, it is a woman who recognized that Jesus must die and supported Him and helped to prepare Him. If this is Mary of Bethany, you think about her every time we see her, she is at the feet of the Savior. Every time. We don’t hear her voice, but you hear she’s listening, she’s picking up and there’s something in there she recognizes and accepts, and understands a truth that I think is would’ve been incredibly difficult to understand at that particular time.

Hank Smith: 00:14:45 What a beautiful story.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:14:47 I just love that and I love it in the John 12 account in that Martha is there as well and she’s serving just like she did in Luke 10, but she’s very happy and she’s very accepting of Mary’s contribution. Everyone seems to be learning from Mary except Judas Iscariot and he’s the one that has the hard time saying this should have been given to the poor and that she only uses some of the ointment. She doesn’t pour it all on him. There have been those that have suggested perhaps when Joseph of Aramathea, Nicodemus go to actually prepare the body of Jesus when he dies. Perhaps Mary and Martha would not have been allowed to be that close because the distrust, because everyone knew how close they were to Jesus that maybe these two men did what women typically do. And I love this. See, this is one of those, I’m making this up, but wouldn’t this be cool? Mary represented her love by giving the rest of that oil to them that they use to prepare his body for burial. One day I’ll get to ask her and see.

Hank Smith: 00:15:51 It’d be poetic. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:15:53 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:15:53 I always stated my classes, if it’s not true, it should be. John, what were you going to add?

John Bytheway: 00:15:57 I just have a question. Is the woman at the end of Luke seven, this is something we ought to clarify, probably?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:16:06 There are those that would say this is the same story again. There’s a woman. Can we look there? Should we just go over there real quickly to Luke 7? I just wanted to show one thing. This is in Galilee. That’s one difference in the way the Luke tells it, it’s happening in Galilee. It’s Luke 7 starting in verse 36. And remember she washes the feet of the Savior with this expensive ointment in an alabaster box.

  00:16:34 So it’s the same again, but in verse 7 it says, “A woman in the city, which was a sinner.” This is one of my favorite things on this story. In Greek you can read that the tense of that verb really can be read. “She had been a sinner, but was a sinner no longer.” Which makes sense for this because she is full of love for the Savior and he tells Simon, His name is Simon and he’s a Pharisee here. Is this the same as Simon the leper? Do you see? Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:17:08 Right.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:17:09 You can see some of the confusion that comes. “Simon, her sins, which are many are forgiven.” That tells you that this woman had been a sinner, but was one I say no longer. And yet Simon still thinks of her as a sinner. This woman, if he knew what manner of woman she was, he would not treat her this way. Jesus concludes by saying to her directly, “Thy sins are forgiven thee, thy faith has saved thee go in peace.”

Hank Smith: 00:17:40 So this could be the same story?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:17:43 It could be, and some people say, “Oh, but she was a sinner. And that wouldn’t be Mary Bethany.” But I just go again, “Come on, we’re all sinners, we all need the atonement.” And whatever that sin was, a lot of people make that woman in Luke 7 to be the same woman who was introduced as having seven devils in the beginning of Luke 8, which is Mary Magdalene. My answer is, I don’t know.

John Bytheway: 00:18:06 I’ve seen some really strong statements from Elder Talmage that the woman of Bethany should not be confused with Mary Magdalene at the beginning of Luke 8.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:18:16 Yes. That really doesn’t happen anymore. That one is really broken apart. And yet you still once in a while hear people that make that connection.

John Bytheway: 00:18:25 Thank you. Okay, so the main reason we would say, probably not is because this in verse one, it says, “He entered into Capernaum.” So this is in a different place. This is not Bethany.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:18:36 Well, it’s a different place and it’s earlier in His ministry. And again, it’s kind of like cleansing the temple. Did He do it once or did He do it twice? It’s mentioned at two different times. I have a little resistance to wanting to conflate these all to the same story because then I have one woman who is doing this wonderful service to the Savior.

Hank Smith: 00:18:57 Could be three.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:18:58 There could be more. And if any good deed done, it has to only be one woman. I’d like to multiply a few works around it.

Hank Smith: 00:19:08 Yeah, who knows? If it’s not true, it should be.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:19:11 Whether this happened twice in that last week or once, one woman or two women, it was memorable and very meaningful to the Savior. He did not feel like this was money wasted. And so I tie that back to temples and the church does do tremendous amount for the poor.

Hank Smith: 00:19:31 $1 billion last year, I think. That’s just the money, not counting the hours and the-

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:19:36 That’s right. And so then you just think, is there something here in the same way that a temple represents Jesus Christ on the earth? That’s what John says in his revelation, that in the celestial kingdom there will be no temple there because Jesus Christ is there. And everything in the temple is to help us see Him, and to find Him, and to follow him. And is there a place that could be too glorious to assist us to do that? He’s saying, “She has done this, she’s wrought a good work upon me and she’s done this to prepare me for my burial.” I think that would’ve been extremely important, that kind of support for the Savior at that particular time.

John Bytheway: 00:20:22 I have in my margin, she understood that He was about to be slain and it appears not everyone else did. And when we remember these gospels were written after the fact, and sometimes I can’t remember where it is, and they remembered, “Hey, wait a minute. He did say that.”

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:20:40 John 2, he says it after the cleansing of the temple. Yes. After all these things happened, then they remembered. Oh, yes.

Hank Smith: 00:20:47 He did say that.

John Bytheway: 00:20:49 Love to point out, look, the women seemed to get it and some of these men did not seem to get it at the time.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:20:56 And there were other women and not all of them did. But I learned from Mary of Bethany, there is tremendous power in being silent and listening and truly opening our hearts and souls to be taught. What does President Nelson remind us? To truly hear Him, to hear Him, we need to button the lip and listen.

Hank Smith: 00:21:20 There’s so many criticizers in these stories. You’ve got the apostles, you’ve got Judas, and Simon the Pharisee all saying, “I wouldn’t let her touch me. And why is she doing this?” And it’s just so easy to criticize other people. I love it when Jesus says in Luke 7:44, “Simon, do you see this woman?” Because all he saw was a sinner. He says, “I wouldn’t let this sinner touch me.” And Jesus is like, “Do you see her? Do you see her?” I’ve always loved that question. Of course, everyone in the room sees her, but-

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:21:51 Do you really see that you did not offer any help in washing my feet? We’re going to come to that today, aren’t we?

Hank Smith: 00:21:59 Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:22:00 You didn’t do any of that. “But she has not ceased to wash my feet with her tears.” He teaches us the level of love we have for Him is manifest by the way we serve others. He recognized that. And very often the women were invisible to the men, but Jesus saw them. And also to Simon once the sinner, always a sinner. Right? There was no, yeah, she had been. And something that she did must have been public enough that she was known. Oh yes, there’s the sinner.

Hank Smith: 00:22:36 I love that question about temples, and I’ve received that too from students from time to time. And one thing I’ve thought of, and I think this fits with what we’ve been talking about, is the temple itself is supposed to create people who will go out and feed other people. Didn’t Isaiah say, “When we go up into the temple, we’ll turn our swords into plows.” So I think the temple can become a mechanism for everybody who comes out of that temple should be ready to feed other people. And in that way, you’re actually really helping the poor in a much more tremendous way with a temple that can change people.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:23:14 Makes me think of feeding the 5,000. And you remember the Savior said in that context, not “you get them all seated and I will give them to eat.” He said to them, “Ye give them to eat.” And I’ve often wondered where the food is multiplied, but Jesus blessed it and magnified them, and he blessed them, and magnified them, and they take this out and there are still 12 baskets filled at the end of it that they can continue to take out to the world. That’s what the temple does for us. It blesses us and magnifies us that we can go out and share.

Hank Smith: 00:23:59 Feed others both spiritually and physically.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:24:02 I like that.

John Bytheway: 00:24:04 I remember, I believe President Hinckley talking about keeping a widow’s mite on his desk to remind him of just the weight of responsibility they must feel in those committees of what do we allocate towards temples? What do we allocate towards missionaries? What do we allocate towards helping the poor and natural disasters around the world? And if you don’t want to advertise that, that’s not why we’re doing it. And yet there’s criticism of why are you doing this? And you can just imagine the responsibility they feel to take care of the Lord’s funds that way.

Hank Smith: 00:24:42 Yeah, the sacred funds.

John Bytheway: 00:24:44 I felt a fraction of it as a bishop, but you can imagine what the whole church, those committees must feel about that. And yeah, we get that question. Well, those temples, you spend a lot of money on those, and it’s nice to hear that sometimes the church will say, “Well, we spent this much on natural disasters and help for anybody who’s a member of the church or not, all over the world. And it’s nice to hear that, once in a while, to say it. They have a tough job to figure out how to best do that.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:25:13 And the fact that it seems like, from here, the Savior definitely approves and truly appreciates it, what she’s doing by association, also what the temples are doing-

John Bytheway: 00:25:27 Very much.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:25:27 … in bringing us to him.

Hank Smith: 00:25:29 I love that. This fits perfectly with the Manual, Camille. There’s a little section in the Manual that says, “With a humble act of worship, the woman described in these verses showed that she knew who Jesus was and what he was about to do. Why do you think her actions were so meaningful to the Savior? What impresses you about the woman? Not what you can criticize, what impresses you about the woman and her faith?” I think that fits exactly what we’ve been talking about.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:25:56 Oh, I love that. It fits with President Nelson’s talk this last conference on not being critical. And instead of looking for reasons like, “Why did she do that?” Instead of saying, “Why?” “Wow, what could I learn because she did that?” And see something in our own faith that could be bolstered. Yeah, a good connection with the Manual. Very good.

  00:26:19 Okay, verse 14, “Then one of the 12 called Judas Iscariot,” and I’m sure you’ve talked about this that probably his name is Judas from Kerioth, a small town in Judah, it’s not a surname, “went unto the chief priest and said unto them, “What will you give me and I will deliver him unto you?” And they covenanted with him for 30 pieces of silver. And from that time, he sought opportunity to betray him.”

  00:26:50 Each of the Gospels give us some little insight into that and it’s going to come up here during the Last Supper as well, but this is where the plan was made. In the footnotes in verse 15 to the 30 pieces of silver, it takes you back to Exodus 21 where it talks about a slave that can be rescued for 30 pieces of silver. This was the price of redeeming a slave. I don’t know if there’s any other significance of that, but for a significant price, I guess, he was willing to betray the Savior. And I just think the question here and at the Last Supper, is always, why? How could one of the 12 do this?

  00:27:35 We don’t have a lot of background. Everything I read says Judas Iscariot was just as strong and capable of one being one of the 12 as the other 11, that he was chosen by inspiration and that he must have done a lot of good. Something has happened and he’s questioning. And again, I have more compassion and just understanding, I guess, for the apostles back then the more I try to imagine things in that day of how hard this would’ve been.

  00:28:12 There’s no role models of what it means to be an apostle and what are you all supposed to do? I just wonder how much Judas Iscariot, he thinks he’s got it figured out. How many times did Peter think he had it figured out? And Jesus lets him know right off, “Nope, that’s not what I had in mind.” And Judas, it’s just not working well. Again, from John 12, with Mary of Bethany washing the Savior’s feet with this expensive ointment, getting so upset of the way money is being spent and it could be used differently. Can that turn us against those making those decisions or qualifying it?

Hank Smith: 00:28:51 Camille, could it be also perhaps he gets publicly reprimanded here and that might-

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:28:57 Yeah, because Peter gets publicly reprimanded all the time, and Peter just bounces right back, he’s just ready to go again. Maybe, for Judas, it’s just too hard.

  00:29:07 I’ve heard students ask, but Jesus needed to have a betrayer, that was prophesied, someone had to betray him. And I think we need to be very, very careful about that. One, I’d say, prophecy doesn’t force things to happen in the future. Prophecy, doesn’t it see things in the future and is able to report it at an earlier time, things that actually are going to happen?

  00:29:33 I just brought this quote from President Joseph Fielding Smith, I love this and I think it’s been very helpful, this is from Doctrines of Salvation, Volume I, page 61, “Every soul coming into this world came here with the promise that through obedience he would receive the blessings of salvation. No person was foreordained or appointed to sin or to perform a mission of evil. No person is ever predestined to salvation or damnation. Every person has agency.

  00:30:09 Cain was promised by the Lord that if he would do well, he would be accepted. Judas had his agency and acted upon it. No pressure was brought to bear on him to cause him to betray the Lord, but he was led by Lucifer.

  00:30:25 If men were appointed to sin and betray their brethren, then justice could not demand that they be punished for sin and betrayal when they are guilty,” end of quote. We should be giving him a reward if that’s what he was commissioned to do beforehand, and that’s not what is happening here. So I think we need to be careful. There didn’t need to be a Judas, right? I don’t see that. There’s no need of a Judas Iscariot, the leaders would’ve found another way.

Hank Smith: 00:30:55 Yeah, Jesus easily could have just walked right into downtown Jerusalem and said, ” You looking for me?”

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:31:00 Well, that’s what Jesus tells them when he is arrested, right? “You could have taken me any time during the day,” but they didn’t want to because there would be a crowd there and then they look bad. But what’s the problem? They don’t know where Jesus is at night.

Hank Smith: 00:31:15 Don’t know where he goes.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:31:16 But Judas does. And if I could just do one verse, could I do one verse in John 18? I know that’s not part of our lesson, but I think it helps us understand why Judas could be what he contributed, if you want to say he had a contribution. Chapter 18 of John, they’re entering into Gethsemane or the garden as John calls it, he and his disciples, in verse two, “And Judas also, which betrayed him, knew the place for Jesus ofttimes resorted thither with his disciples.” So it seems like the thing that Judas could make his deal with these leaders would be, “I could show you where they go at night” because this is their place here on the Mount of Olives.

Hank Smith: 00:32:01 He has insider information.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:32:03 Yes. And I don’t know, and maybe he was thinking, “Jesus can get out of it. He’s got out of it how many other straits in the past? And I can make a little money on the side, that wouldn’t be bad. And I can help the poor with that money. However you want to justify it.

Hank Smith: 00:32:17 Who knows what was going on in his head?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:32:19 Who knows? Okay, let’s then get in here. So now it comes the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. I’m back in Matthew 26 and they’re saying, where are we going to have the Passover? Jesus gives instructions as far as where to go to get a room ready, even an upper room, we’ll read in some of the other Gospels to have the Passover, one of three major holy feasts that are to be kept every year. Let’s go to verse 20, “Now, when even was come, he sat down with the 12, and as they did eat, he said, verily, I say unto you that one of you shall betray me.” We don’t know, he doesn’t tell us how he knows. Again, here’s another indication he knows far more and understands far more than we give him credit for sometimes. And what is interesting, what if someone says, “One of you will betray me” or “One of you cheated on a test, this last test,” what’s the reaction? I think the reaction is almost, yes, exactly John.

John Bytheway: 00:33:25 I bet it’s him.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:33:27 He did. I bet it’s him. I’ve seen him. Or saying, “It wasn’t me. It wasn’t me. I’m not going to do it. No, I didn’t do that.” In fact, we’ll see in the John 13 account, Peter and John are asking, “Who is it?” That’s kind of a more natural question. What is fascinating to me is in all three synoptic Gospels, as we see here in Matthew verse 22, we have the apostles asking, “Lord, is it I?” I think that is one of the most powerful questions to ask frequently, after hearing every talk at General Conference or in sacrament meeting or Sunday School lesson or Relief Society, whatever. How often we could say, “Oh, who ought to be hearing this?”

John Bytheway: 00:34:14 Yeah, I know somebody who really needed that talk.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:34:17 Mm-hmm. And I think it shows an incredible amount of humility because as much as they’re saying, “There’s no way I would ever betray you,” they’re willing to say, ” I’m vulnerable. I make mistakes. I could do this. I’ve got to be careful. Help me. Help thou mine unbelief.” I mean, you can feel it there. I think that’s an incredible question and one to remember.

John Bytheway: 00:34:45 I spent my full eligibility as a young single adult and even went into my single adult years before I got married. And man, I used to feel ripped to shreds by some of the talks about, “Come on, young man, get your act together. Go out there and get married.” And I was trying, I was sincerely trying, and I knew I was trying. And there were times when I had to do that, “Lord, is it I?” And sometimes I’d get to the point where I could say, “No, he wasn’t talking to me because I’m really trying. I’m going on a date every week,” that was my goal and everything. But it was helpful to approach it with that, “Okay, do I need this? Do I really need this?” And let me be humble enough to ask, ” Is there something in there for me?” Anyway, I just thought that was great advice during those years.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:35:36 And it’s a good caution too because the Lord does answer and could answer to 11 of those, “No, it isn’t you.” And in some ways, that fits with the sacrament as well, doesn’t, as we’re getting into this as far as it’s not being aware of whether someone around you takes the sacrament or not, it is, “Lord, is it I. And what am I promising as I take this?” This is between me and him, it’s not looking around at anybody else.

Hank Smith: 00:36:02 There was a fantastic talk given by Elder Uchtdorf, then President Uchtdorf, back in 2014, if you can remember that far back, “Lord is it I.” It was at a priesthood session of General Conference and he brings up this story that Camille has brought forward for us, this Lord is it I and he compares it to the beams and the mote story where Jesus says, “Why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but you don’t consider the beam that is in your own eye.” He says, “This business of beams and motes seems to be closely related to our inability to see ourselves clearly. I’m not sure why we are able to diagnose and recommend remedies for other people’s ills so well, while we often have difficulty seeing our own. It might not be so significant to overestimate how well we drive a car or how far we drive a golf ball, but when we start believing that our contributions at home, at work and at the church are greater than they actually are, we blind ourselves to blessings and opportunities to improve ourselves in significant and profound ways.”

  00:37:06 He gives some great examples of people asking that question, Lord is it I? Am I the one that’s the problem? Am I the vulnerable one that could make a mistake here? He says, “Brethren, we must put aside our pride, see beyond our vanity and in humility, ask, “Lord, is it I?” And if the Lord’s answer happens to be, “Yes, my son-

John Bytheway: 00:37:27 “It’s you.”

Hank Smith: 00:37:28 … there are things you must improve, things I can help you to overcome. I pray that we will accept this answer, humbly acknowledge our sins and our shortcomings and then change our ways. May we, from this time forward, seek with all our might to walk steadfastly in the Saviors blessed way for seeing ourselves clearly is the beginning of wisdom.” Isn’t that great? Look inward, Lord, is it I?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:37:52 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:37:53 John, what were you going to say?

John Bytheway: 00:37:54 I contrast this question sometimes with another one that came earlier, “What lack I yet?” Which I just think who in the world, would ever ask that? But then I think, he was coming from, I guess, kind of a more outward, observable, law of Moses, check the boxes kind of mentality maybe. I love what President Oaks has talked about the challenge to become that it’s not just what we do, but it’s what are we becoming. And that’s a different question. This guy, maybe the, Lord what lack I yet? was coming from a, did I get all the boxes? And President Oaks was much more of a, it’s not just what we know, it’s not even what we do, it’s what are we becoming over time. Are we becoming true disciples? And that’s a harder question to answer. Anyway, I just think that, What lack I yet? is a different mentality than Lord is it I? and I like to put those side by side.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:38:52 That’s good. When Judas Iscariot says it it means something a little different, doesn’t it? So in verse 23, Jesus answers, “He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish the same shall betray me.” Well, let’s finish right here, verse 24, “The son of man goeth as it is written of him, but woe unto that man by whom the son of man is betrayed. It had been good that that man if he had not been born,” or the Joseph Smith Translation, “it would have been good if he had not been born.” That’s one of the strongest punishments or judgements that anyone could receive.

  00:39:35 Well, that’s where people have come up with the idea that Judas Iscariot would be a son of perdition because those would be ones that it would be better not to have been born. If we’re not put in any kind of position of judgment and when we see Judas after the fact, in one account, taking his own life would indicate he has deep remorse, this is not what he intended. And where there is remorse, there is something that can be saved. But what is hard is then to read verse 25, “Then Judas, which betrayed him answered and said, “Master is it I?”” Ah, when he knows already he has made that deal with the enemy. That’s kind of Ananias and Sapphira who knew very well they were lying and cheating and then, they put on the face that I’m being honest and they know they are not.

John Bytheway: 00:40:28 Camille, when I was in seminary, I never understood thou hast said, can you tell us what thou hast said would mean? That’s King James way of saying what? Like in verse 25, “Master is it I? He said unto him, “Thou hast said.””

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:40:41 Okay. Yeah, and thou hast said saying, “You said it.” Agreeing with him.

John Bytheway: 00:40:45 It is as you say.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:40:47 It is as you say, yes, “That’s it. You got it. Bingo, you win.” But I think that’s helpful for where I want to go to John 13 because a lot of times, we read this and you just go, why make it such a mystery who it is when it’s so obvious who I’m dipping the sop with, that’s the one, and here’s Judas dipping the sop with him right then? But I love it.

  00:41:11 In John 13, let’s pick it up with verse 24. Simon Peter beckoned to John and said, “Ask him who he’s talking about. Find out.” Because there’s John leaning on the Savior and 25, “He then lying on Jesus’ breast said unto him, “Lord, who is it?” And Jesus answered, “He it is to whom I shall give a sop when I have dipped it.” And when he had dipped the sop he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon,” which is like advertising to everyone ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, this is Judas.

  00:41:49 And then, verse 28, “Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him.” I think that is really helpful. It just seems to me that Jesus did this in a way that it was between him and Judas, that no one else knew. It wasn’t for them to say, “Ah, I was getting worried about him.” They didn’t know that. They would never have guessed it. In fact, in verse 29, what did they guess, “For some of them thought because Judas had the bag, the treasury, he took care of the money that Jesus had said to them by those things that we have need of against the feast or that he should give something to the poor.” I like to think of this as between Jesus and Judas Iscariot alone, and that’s the way it is with us too. It isn’t advertising to everyone else.

  00:42:37 It’s tragic, whatever it is, it is very tragic and our hearts break for Judas. And anyone else who turns and thinks that, oh, this is going to be the better way, and then, finds out this is not at all what I intended, and hearts are broken. Well, I mean, it’s right after that in John 13 that John says that Judas left and it was night, but it’s dark. I just think it is darkness all around Judas Iscariot right now.

  00:43:05 I just discovered another passage in the Joseph Smith Translation that is not in our edition, they haven’t put every single one in, and one of them is about Judas Iscariot and his reasoning or perhaps an insight into why he betrayed Jesus.

John Bytheway: 00:43:24 Interesting. From the JST.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:43:25 It’s from the JST.

John Bytheway: 00:43:26 Okay.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:43:27 It’s Mark chapter 14 and it is 30 and 31, in the Joseph Smith Translation, which there isn’t a parallel directly. But listen to this, “And he said unto Judas Iscariot, “What thou doest do quickly, but beware of innocent blood.” Nevertheless, Judas Iscariot, even one of the 12, went unto the chief priests to betray Jesus unto them and he turned away from him and was offended because of his words.”

  00:43:59 That would fit a little bit with what John just said about maybe he was hurt that his suggestion of giving this money to the poor might have helped to contribute to that. I don’t know, but that’s an interesting little addition from the Joseph Smith Translation.

Hank Smith: 00:44:17 That is interesting. What reference did that go with?

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:44:19 Mark 14, but it would fit with even where we were reading in John 13 with him and it was dark, but he had turned away from him. The light is gone.

  00:44:32 Let’s move on and now verse 26, “As they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it.” And here we go. Here it is. They’re eating the Passover feast, but here he’s going to introduce the sacrament. “Jesus break it and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take, eat, this is my body.” And he took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them saying, “Drink, drink all of it,” or, “all of you drink from it,” is maybe the better way in the Greek to say that, “for this is my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.”

  00:45:13 In the appendix, there’s another verse that’s added. It’s interesting in Matthew and Mark, in the King James translation, there’s no evidence that this is done in remembrance of me. You notice that? I think you can see where transubstantiation would have come that you’re literally eating his flesh and drinking his blood, something that in John six and the sermon on the Bread of Life, a lot of the disciples misunderstood that that’s what he was saying. In the Joseph Smith Translation in both of those, it says in remembrance. In Luke 22, in King James text, it says, “Do this in remembrance,” which is important.

  00:45:54 But let me just pull out… I think this is one… Yes, I just think this is helpful in the appendix of the Joseph Smith Translation, these two verses, “For this is in remembrance of my blood of the New Testament, which is shed for as many as shall believe on my name for the remission of their sins. And I give unto you a commandment that ye shall observe to do the things which you have seen me do and bear record of me even unto the end.”

  00:46:25 That little verse, that verse 25 in the Joseph Smith Translation, that is all added in Joseph Smith Translation has been a real help for me as I think about renewing my covenants when I take the sacrament, that I am observing to do the things which I have seen him do and I’m bearing record of him even until the end, that’s part of my promise there.

  00:46:52 I don’t know how many of you have been able to read Elder Hollands Our Day Star Rising along with your study of the New Testament. It’s a new book published just this year, if you wanted to, to accompany your study of the New Testament. It’s parts of his talks where he has spoken about different verses in the New Testament and it’s arranged in the order of the New Testament.

  00:47:20 Yes, and I’m on page 107. This is from Luke 22, the Luke 22 version of this story. I just want to read just a little bit from Elder Holland. We didn’t get to hear him at General Conference and I miss him.

Hank Smith: 00:47:36 Good idea.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:47:38 “Every ordinance of the Gospel focuses, in one way or another, on the atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ, and surely, that is why this particular ordinance with all its symbolism and imagery comes to us more readily and more repeatedly than any other in our life. It comes in what has been called the most sacred, the most holy of all the meetings of the church. Perhaps we do not always attach that kind of meaning to our weekly sacramental service. How sacred and how holy is it? Do we see it as our Passover, remembrance of our safety and deliverance and redemption? With so very much at stake, this ordinance commemorating our escape from the angel of darkness should be taken more seriously than it sometimes is. It should be a powerful, reverent, reflective moment. It should encourage spiritual feelings and impressions. As such, it should not be rushed. It is not something to get over so that the real purpose of the sacrament meeting can be pursued. This is the real purpose of the meeting and everything that is said or sung or prayed in those services should be consistent with the grandeur of this sacred ordinance.” Hey, yeah, it’s just beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:49:00 Yeah. Here he is breaking the bread and pouring the wine. Aren’t they thinking, “Well, we’ll probably be discussing Moses and the Passover? That’s what usually we discuss at this meal.” But instead, he changes the Passover to being about him.

John Bytheway: 00:49:16 Yes.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:49:17 Or helping them see, I think, that the Passover was always about him. And here it is now, and he will say, you’re not going to do this. Verse 29, “I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new with you in my father’s kingdom.” There’s something in that that is an implication that this is something that’s going to go on until he comes again and does that with them. They don’t know how long that’s going to be, but it’s not as clear as I think we understand it. There’s going to be a differentiation here. I think it becomes even more clear after Acts 10 when Peter receives the revelation that the law of Moses has been fulfilled.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:50:01 This is something new and you continue to do this in remembrance of me. You wonder if during the first part of the Passover, there was some talk, there would be talk of Moses in that time and the lamb and what is this sacrificial lamb and the blood that was painted up above the lentils of the doors that saved, that they could start making those connections, that wait, yes. If they’d thought about before in previous Passovers, this one would’ve cemented it, then he’s saying, “Yep, this is me.”

John Bytheway: 00:50:35 This is a big one. Do you know what I love about this is that maybe like you were saying, Hank, and I know our friend Andy Skinner has talked about this, that Jesus just changed the order of things and kind of wait a minute, what? Kind of upended what’s going on in the middle of the Passover and saying, “Actually, this is my body. This is my blood.” Wait, wait, what? No, we’re we’re looking back to Moses and he’s saying, “No, all of that was looking forward to me” and now, take the sacrament and look back to these events of the atonement. We take it and we remember backward. But I love that because the word, a seder, as they call it today, doesn’t it mean order. There was a certain order in that you did things and Jesus, as He so often did, just upended it and changed what they were used to and said, “Actually, this is about me.”

  00:51:25 Two things. Bruce R. McConkie commenting on the Book of Mormon because in the Book of Mormon, before Jesus appears to the Righteous in the Book of Mormon, this voice comes out of heaven and says, “No more sacrifice. Bring a broken heart and a contrite spirit.” And Elder McConkie said, “Sacrifice stopped and sacrament started.” Just a great way to put it. And I love what our friend, Robert L. Millet, has said that the Law of Moses was a grand prophecy of Christ and especially, the sacrifices. This is the lamb, the unblemished, firstborn male with the blood. This is like a prophecy. So looking at the Passover like a prophecy would be different than we’re just remembering Moses.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:52:10 Yes, but I think I wonder how much time it takes for each individual to make that kind of connection in the same way with us today. There are times in taking the sacrament, it is such a holy, sacred experience and other times, I can understand what Elder Holland is saying, just something to get over and let’s move on with what we’re doing in our Sunday worship. But reviewing what happened in this first time of administering the sacrament to them, I think, is really helpful and kind of reading between the lines as far as what was happening. I think this is where Luke, if we can go into Luke 22, it’s slightly different, but it’s still the Last Supper teaching that Jesus makes that is not recorded in Matthew or Mark or John for that matter.

John Bytheway: 00:52:58 Luke talks about the cup after supper, kind of the four cups that it had become.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:53:03 Oh, yes. Yeah, you can see much more of that. Yeah, that’s good. Kind of like the regular Passover feast and you see in Verse 19, He took the bread and gave thanks and break it and gave it to them saying, “This is my body which is given unto you. This do in remembrance of me.” Likewise also, the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the New Testament in my blood, which is shed for you.” And then, there’s the strife that comes over who will betray me and who that is greatest among you, let him be your servant and important lesson that Matthew and Mark record a little earlier than the Last Supper. Verse 26, “He that is chiefest is he that doth serve.” That word “serve,” the noun form of it in Greek is diakonos, which is sometimes translated as “minister” or the verb form “ministering.”

  00:53:57 It’s a wonderful reminder, again, of something that happens as we make covenants and renew covenants, I think, is that we recommit to minister and that’s what makes a true follower of Christ. He that is greatest is the one that serves Verse 27, “Whether is greater, he that sit at that meat or he that serveth, is not he that sit at that meat, but I am among you as he that serveth,” that ministers. It’s the same word. It’s a wonderful reminder when you come upon that serving or a servant, it’s a minister and that’s what we do when we make covenants is we covenant to minister to those around us.

John Bytheway: 00:54:39 Maybe Martha quoted this back to Jesus later.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:54:43 She was cumbered about with much diakonos. Yes, that’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:54:51 Diakonos-ing. We invent new words here at followHIM. Yeah.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:54:55 It’s the very same and interesting, just as a little side, when you get back in Paul’s Epistles, he sometimes translates it as a deacon. Diakonos is the same word as deacon.

John Bytheway: 00:55:06 Oh, wow.

Dr. Camille Olson: 00:55:06 And so some people think, “Oh, you’ve got to be a priesthood office,” but it’s the same word. Phoebe was a female diakonos and sometimes, it’s translated “servant,” sometimes “minister,” sometimes “deacon.” It is what it meant to be a true follower of Jesus Christ.

  00:55:23 But this is what I want to really do. Verse 31, And the Lord said as they have just completed this sacrament service, this first administration of the sacrament.

John Bytheway: Please join us for part two of this podcast.