Hank Smith: 00:00:03 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m here with my magnificent co-host, John Bytheway. Welcome, John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 Thank you, Hank. Good to be here.

Hank Smith: 00:00:14 It’s a good day at followHIM. John, we’re going to spend our time in 1 and 2 Timothy and some of the other epistles of Paul. Anything you’re looking forward to, anything you’ve prepped?

John Bytheway: 00:00:24 Yeah, as I’ve read through this, I’ve just found phrases in 1 and 2 Timothy that we use all the time, so it’s going to be fun to see a context for all of these little phrases that we use. We’ll point them out as we go through. I just love Timothy personally because it sounds like he was a young man, which is fun to imagine.

Hank Smith: 00:00:41 I’m looking forward to this because we’ve often had Paul speaking to big groups of people in these letters, and we’re going to see Paul maybe on a little more one-on-one level, which I think will be a fun look at him. John, we’re joined this week by a scripture expert that has been with us many times in the past, Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner. Barb, what are we looking forward to in these epistles from Paul this week?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:01:05 What I’m looking forward to the most is 1 Timothy 2:11, where it says, “Let the women learn in silence with all subjection.” I’m really looking forward to just sitting here and watching the two of you talk and me just making sure I’m modest and…

Hank Smith: 00:01:20 Yeah, and keeping silence. Keeping silence.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:01:23 … submissive and keeping silent. I am looking to not being suffered to speak or usurp authority in any way. That’s what I’m looking forward to today.

Hank Smith: 00:01:31 Wonderful.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:01:32 I can’t wait for this time with you guys. It’ll be awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:01:35 Why don’t we go straight to the issue then, Barbara?

John Bytheway: 00:01:38 Oh, goodness.

Hank Smith: 00:01:39 Where some people might say, “I wonder if they’re going to skip it this week?” No, no, actually, it’s going to be the first thing we talk about.

John Bytheway: 00:01:44 And that’s our recording for this week. Goodnight, folks.

Hank Smith: 00:01:48 Have a good week.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:01:49 Silence for two hours. Sorry.

John Bytheway: 00:01:54 Take it away, Barbara.

Hank Smith: 00:01:55 John trying to do what Paul said. All right, John, for those who might be new to followHIM, tell them who Barb is, why we think she’s so wonderful.

John Bytheway: 00:02:05 Yes, we’ve had Dr. Gardner here before, Barbara Morgan Gardner. In fact, I’m holding my Priesthood Power of Women book. I’m just going to read the back of your book jacket here, which is a really great book. I think when we had you on before that there’s topics that we touched on. Barbara Morgan Gardner is an Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine at Brigham Young University. She holds a master’s degree in educational leadership and foundations and a PhD in instructional psychology. She did postdoctoral work at Harvard University, was an institute director in Boston, serving more than 100 universities and colleges in the area, and acting as chaplain at Harvard and MIT. She continues to serve as the chaplain-at-large in higher education for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. She’s the Chair of the Belonging and Inclusion Committee for Religious Education. She’s married to Dustin Gardner. They are the parents of two children. She likes to eat at Gardner Village. Welcome, Dr. Gardner. Good to see you again.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:03:09 It’s so great to be with you guys. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:03:12 John, I did this a couple of weeks ago. I’m holding up Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. This was put together by a member of the Sorensen family who are our sponsors and producers, Annabelle Sorensen. What Annabelle did was compile a bunch of quotes from our Old Testament guests, so I want to read one from Dr. Gardner. This is when she was with us on the Book of Malachi. I loved this. She said, “You’re probably not going to get rich being a covenant keeper. Some people will, some people won’t, but that’s not the point. It’s not that kind of richness. It’s just like the Lord says, ‘I will make up my jewels.’ We are the money to the Lord. We are His great value. We are His glory. It’s people. And that’s the thing with tithing, it’s not about the money.” And then this part, John, “It’s about what God is creating. He’s creating His jewels as we give up our jewels.”

  00:04:09 Man, to me that was a standout moment. If you want this book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, put together by Annabelle Sorensen, I’m sure you can find it online or go to our website, followhim.co, followhim.C-O. Anyway, great moment, Barb.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:04:24 Not that we’re jumping into there, but for the time, just because you brought that up, it does remind me of chapter six, Paul talking to Timothy and him just saying, “For the love of money is the root of all evil,” one of those famous verses that John was talking about, I mean these words, “which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.” And just as you were saying that I just thought, “We covet the world, we covenant with God.” If we can just change those things around and make sure that we’re fighting the good fight, as he says, focusing on eternal life, being on that covenant path, then the things that we covet hopefully will just fall out of the way.

Hank Smith: 00:04:55 Yeah, I love that.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:04:57 It’s just interesting that he brings in this money part again in Timothy. Money’s an issue. It can be something that can destroy if it’s coveted, but it also can be a huge blessing if it’s used in a covenant type relationship.

Hank Smith: 00:05:09 Don’t covet, covenant.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:05:10 It’s not the money, it’s the intention of the heart.

John Bytheway: 00:05:13 Covet the world, covenant with God. I love it.

Hank Smith: 00:05:16 She just says these wonderful things. She grabs them out of the air and makes beautiful connections. We’re looking forward to that today. Hey, Barb, let me read something out of the manual, and then we’ll hand it over to you and let’s see where you want to go. This is from the Come, Follow Me manual, opening paragraph. “In the epistles Paul wrote to Timothy, Titus, and Philemon,” you can call him Philemon if you want to, “we get a glimpse into the heart of a servant of the Lord. Unlike Paul’s other epistles to entire congregations, these were written to individuals, Paul’s close friends and associates in God’s work, and reading them is like listening in on a conversation. We see Paul encouraging Timothy and Titus, two leaders of congregations, in their church service. We see him entreating his friend Philemon to reconcile with a fellow saint and treat him like a brother in the gospel. Paul’s words were not addressed to us directly, and he may never have expected that so many people would one day read them.”

  00:06:10 Can you imagine, you’re writing a letter and billions of people are going to read it one day? He’s probably like, “Oh, I would’ve maybe said something different.” “Yet,” the manual says, “we find in these epistles counsel and encouragement for us, whatever our personal ministry in the service of Christ might be.” I was reading as we prepped for today’s episode that there’s some problems in Ephesus, and so Paul sends Timothy back to Ephesus to try to correct some of these problems, these false teachers that are there, some of the problems within the Christian community itself. It’d be fun to be on a mission that your mission president Paul sent you on, and then he writes you a letter, “How are things going? Here’s what you should do.” With that, Barb, where do you want to go with 1 Timothy?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:06:57 John and Hank, it’s interesting, as I was just listening to you, Hank, when I read through this recently, I remembered being a youth and reading Timothy. So it brought me to this mentoring type feeling and mentoring type relationship. Speaking as a woman, many women, young and old, wish they had more mentors. This is something that I’ve been trying to work on and really help women see mentors and women who are strong in the scriptures, strong in their faith, diligent in all that they do. I just love how many principles of leadership and mentoring there are from Paul to Timothy. But also recognition that we see in Timothy that we don’t see in other places is Timothy’s recognition, Paul’s recognition of the women mentors that he has had in his life. That brings us into 2 Timothy. I just love this family relationship of a mother and a grandmother who have been mentoring him.

  00:07:45 I also look at this and I just think about these many scriptures in my youth that have been extremely impactful. I remember being a youth, I was the 12th of 13 children. I thought at that time that all my siblings were perfect. Genuinely I did. I remember my dad was serving as a stake president. I was surrounded by strong active people in my own family, although many of my friends and things were not. I was raised in Oregon. I remember one day being on a volleyball bus, I played volleyball and basketball and softball, and having all of my teammates asking me questions about the gospel, just pounding me, right? One after the other, “Where are the gold plates today? Why do you believe in Joseph Smith? Where are the horns on your head?” the kinds of questions that you just get that you just don’t ever hear about. But we were teenagers, we were young. I remember answering all their questions to the best of my ability, and frankly, I think I did a pretty good job.

  00:08:34 And then the big bus pulled in, I got out of the bus, went to my parents’ gold van, went to the front seat, sat down, and I began to cry. My dad was driving, and he just said, “Did you lose the game?” and I said, “Well, yes.” But we always lost, so it turned out that wasn’t the problem. And then he just said, “What’s the problem?” I said, “I have just spoken to all of my friends on this bus and was pounded with questions regarding the church. I don’t know if any of it’s true. I know all the answers, but I don’t know if any of it is true.” I remember my dad just looking at me in the rearview mirror and just saying, “Well, go figure it out.”

  00:09:13 I bring this verse up because specifically for the next few months of my young teenage life, I studied the scriptures trying to find the truth, maybe similar to Joseph Smith, but in my own way. I read every book I could find about the church. I went through the missionary books. I went through scriptures. I even attended other churches that were around me in Oregon and my parents at the time just let me. That seemed to be what I needed to do at that time. I remember one morning reading this exact verse, “Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth,” and I remember this moment where I just sat there and I realized, “Barb, that’s you. You are learning and learning and learning, and you have read and you have studied and you have gained so much information, and you don’t even know if it’s true.”

  00:10:02 But then it was this moment of, so what do you need to do? And then it was a simple, silent, “I need to get on my knees and do what it teaches in Moroni and ask the Lord if it’s true.” Interestingly enough, I went to church after that, and the teacher used this exact verse in Sunday school. And then I went to seminary the next day, and this exact verse was shared. I just knew that the Lord was just putting little drops in your path. I just knew that the Lord was speaking to me and saying, “When you felt that that verse applied to you, it was confirmed that it applied to you, and then confirmed again that it applied to you. And the answer for you is you need to know for yourself.” And at that point, I went on not just a knowledge and information quest, but a I want to know the truth, not just gather information. It changed my life.

  00:10:50 So this verse has been marked in many scriptures for me. It has been written about in my early days of my journal. And if people were to say, “What is one of your all-time favorite scriptures?” that was a life changer for me. It’s the James 1:5 that was a life changer for Joseph Smith. This one was a life changer for me. I feel like Timothy, and I’ve felt this way since I was a youth, that Timothy was one of my best friends, because somehow Timothy needed that. And although it may not have been for him, it may have been for other people that Timothy was helping, but somehow I connected to him at a very deep level, that maybe Timothy and others understood that I was ever learning and I needed to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  00:11:25 So that’s one of my all-time favorites from these scriptures. I think that there are many people in that realm who are ever learning, and at some point the Spirit will teach the knowledge of the truth if that effort and price is paid in the due time of the Lord.

Hank Smith: 00:11:39 Awesome. Wow, what a great way to start here, Barb.

John Bytheway: 00:11:42 We chose the right guest for today. That’s so great, that personal connection to that.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:11:49 Sorry to jump up to chapter three of Timothy two already.

Hank Smith: 00:11:53 Not at all.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:11:53 But I read that even this morning again and just got so excited about the feelings of my youth came back to me in such power this morning that it was actually a renewing of, yes, I know these things are true to me. In my later years, I know this now more than ever, but it started at a very young age thankfully for great mentors and prophets and leaders like Paul and others who help the youth come to a knowledge of the truth.

  00:12:19 I love these writings. When he speaks, these letters, when he first writes them, I just love this kind of language and this love and care that Paul gives for those who he has been given stewardship over. Paul an apostle, and then verse two, “Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith.” For me, it’s “my own daughter in the faith, grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ. And then I besot thee to… ” Just this terminology, there’s such love between Paul and those he’s writing to. You see the same thing exactly with Titus. He just starts that letter with Titus, “According to the faith of God’s elect and acknowledging of the truth, which is after godliness, and the hope of eternal life, that cannot lie, promise before the world began.” And then the way he just… Verse four, “To Titus, mine own son, after the common faith, grace, mercy.” And again, I would say, “To Barbara, my own daughter,” and to any of you who’s listening, you put your own name in there, “grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”

  00:13:16 In 2 Timothy 4 we see again to Timothy, “And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work and will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.” And he asks them to salute and salute. It’s like entering into the school of the prophets in the times of Kirkland where we greet each other with a holy kiss. It’s that kind of idea to me. These are true servants of the Lord. They’re disciples of Jesus Christ. They practice what they preach, and because they live the doctrine of Jesus Christ, they increase in charity. They are leaders not because they have studied leadership, they’re leaders because they have become disciples of Christ. They’re full of charity.

  00:13:48 Verse 15 in Titus 3 is, “All that with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace be with you all. Amen.” Such a personal relationship in these letters. Not just a general feeling but a personal feeling of a mentor trying to help someone that he loves dearly and is really wanting to help teach and grow. He’s trying to build him and give him opportunities for growth, and he’s building entire nations and communities because of his mentoring of one individual. It’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:14:15 And he trusts them. He sent them on these missions out to these congregations. I don’t even know if they’re missions as in just go there and be there. Go in there and lead. So the trust that’s there and then the mentoring really gives us a personal side to Paul.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:14:29 To me, he is a builder of people. In these verses, you just see Paul. He is trying to help Timothy and Titus and others, that he’s saying, “And please teach these people as well.” He’s trying to help them become spiritually self-reliant, and he’s doing it in such a way he’s magnifying people, he’s giving them some great tutorials, some skills and things that he’s learned in the past, mostly focusing on the principles and doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but in such a way that you know that Paul’s going to move on someday and he needs to have that younger generation ready to go. And they need to teach the gospel, be grounded in the doctrine of Jesus Christ, be true to what they’re saying. He’s warning them about the things that he has experienced, and he’s seeing that this is happening there. He’s talking about the foolishness of some people, and he just keeps saying, “Timothy, Titus, you’ve got to be grounded. You’ve got to have your feet completely rooted. You’ve got to know your doctrine. There are going to be people that are going to try to confuse you. Teach this to the members of the church. Make sure we’re all on the same team.”

  00:15:19 It’s like he’s just teaching these leadership skills, but it’s not just leaders, he’s teaching saints how to live in this world according to the gospel. These are his own experiences. He’s come from being one who was among these people, who were at one time perhaps they were flattering in words and perhaps they weren’t kind, and perhaps he was one who was trying to destroy the kingdom of God on the earth. I mean we know that about Paul, and he knows what it’s like to be on both sides, and he knows how to help people deal with people who were once like him. He’s guiding them through, “Stick to the doctrine. Stick to the purity. There’s going to be a lot of foolish out there. Be meek.” These kinds of things, it’s a missionary, it’s a teacher, it’s a leader, it’s a parent. It’s trying to help people be firmly grounded in the gospel of Jesus Christ to a younger group of people who desperately need a mentor to help them on their way.

John Bytheway: 00:16:05 I like that you’re using the word mentor. I hadn’t thought of that before of this relationship, but my mission president was that for me. President Menlo Smith, he used to say, “The Lord gets the work done through His people and He gets His people done through the work.” He would also say, “A good leader trains leaders while he leads.” I like what you’re saying, that Paul’s not only saying, “Okay, here’s a memo from church HQ. Do this.” but “You’re my sons. You’re my colleagues. You’re my brothers in this work.” They’re still doing the work, but he’s treating them like a mentor would treat. I like that you’ve brought that phrase in.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:16:41 I love the mentoring too because he’s treating them as real humans. He recognizes in verse 15, “This is a faithful saying and worthy of all exception, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.” I remember before my mission, my dad just said to me, “Barb, is there anything that you are not saying that you would be embarrassed to tell me as a father?” I cried for hours. I remember, after I had just confessed to everything, which I didn’t need to confess to everything because I’d already confessed to the bishop, I did need to though because it was a worldly sorrow, not a godly sorrow. I was afraid of being a fool in front of my own father who loved me so much. But what’s more important is I remember, after saying all these things, my dad just looking at me and saying, “Welcome to the club of people who need the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”

  00:17:26 Sometimes as leaders there’s a caution to not put all your sins out on the table and have all those discussions, but there’s also the reality of as we are mentors and humans that we’re real and authentic with people. And Paul’s doing this. I love that He just admits, “I’m the chief, I’m the chief of all sinners, and I need Jesus Christ.” As we’re working with youth, as we’re working with each other, as we’re working with people our own age and experiences that we recognize and just be clear, we’re not judging you. We’re not here to tell you what you should and shouldn’t do exactly. We are here as those who have found the gospel of Jesus Christ and who are living it, and we are desperate for His Atonement.

  00:18:02 Paul recognizes that right off the bat with Timothy. I love the name just Timothy, the Bible dictionary says Timothy means honored of God. I just think that’s such a beautiful understanding of that term Timothy. These are important words. These are important uses, but Timothy is clearly honored of God. And as it says, he is trusted and he’s one that Paul can reach out to. But trusted and perfection are not the same thing, but we admit our need for the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and that’s very clear here.

Hank Smith: 00:18:29 That’s a great verse that you brought up, chapter one verse 15, “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of who I am chief.” I think sometimes my students, my children think I was born in a suit and tie, that I was in the delivery room, came out with my scriptures in hand, and started teaching the nurses and doctors. There’s an authenticity to, listen, I need the Atonement too. I’ve shared with John a little bit of my youth. And yeah, if I got my patriarchal blessing and the Lord was being truly honest, He would say, “It does not look good. You have a lot of unearned confidence. You’re going your own way and-

John Bytheway: 00:19:10 Unearned confidence.

Hank Smith: 00:19:11 “… you are spiraling actually.” But I love that realness from Paul. He came to save sinners, I’m a big sinner, of whom I am chief.

John Bytheway: 00:19:21 Then that next verse he goes, “So I’m a pattern to them what should hereafter believe on Him to life everlasting.” If I can be forgiven, here’s Paul who used to persecute, you can too. I think that gives us a lot of hope that when we look at Paul’s background, no wonder he would say, “I’m chief. Let me hold the coats while you stone somebody,” or whatever that story is.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:19:44 Sometimes I think that some of us, including myself perhaps, look at those who are among the most righteous and think, “They’re beyond temptation” or “They’re beyond hardship” or “They’re beyond whatever it is.” I appreciate so much general conference talks recently that you can see a lot of this authenticity and some of the struggles that people have gone through. I love President Nelson’s talk in the early 2000s when he lost his wife Dantzel and how he just cried with us as he talked about how he couldn’t save her life.

  00:20:12 There have been so many others as examples of this. I just know with myself, and to your point too, Hank, sometimes my daughters will feel the same way I think at times like, “Mom’s so righteous. She teaches the gospel and goes to church.” To me it’s almost laughable because I know that my sins and weaknesses are in my face constantly. The reality is I don’t believe that for the most part, at least myself, it’s not a matter of judging anyone else. I’m not going to church on Sunday because I’m being self-righteous. I am desperate. I’m desperate for Christ.

  00:20:43 I remember when we were growing up, we’d go camping and we’d watch and be with other families and things. Even on the Sabbath, my parents always went to church. Always. We would be smelly and smokey, whatever it was, we do our best to look nice and clean, we’d go to church. I realized my parents were desperate for the Atonement of Christ, and they were desperate for us to know about the Atonement of Christ. They weren’t trying to be self-righteous. I’m not trying to be self-righteous. I need the Atonement of Christ. I need the sacrament. It’s that pattern. And you see that with Paul. He’s giving his life to this. It’s not a matter of judging anyone or being in a position where you’re doing more or less than someone. It’s just, on a personal note, I have to go to church. I need to take the sacrament. I need to go to the temple. I have to for my salvation, for who I am as a person. I can’t live without the Savior.

Hank Smith: 00:21:31 There’s something beautiful in Paul being vulnerable and saying, “Look, I need this just as much as everyone I’m teaching.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:21:41 Yeah. The reality is we have general conference and things and they’re speaking to the general public, but in my personal interactions with, frankly I’ll just say, First Presidency members of the Quorum of the Twelve, women leaders of the church in different experiences, the one-on-one conversations you get to interact with and be with people at a different level. Sometimes I wish so badly the members of the church around the world could have the personal one-on-one or the personal letters that come. I’ve laughed harder in person with serious leaders of this church, and I’ve been guided by them in a more personal way.

  00:22:15 This is a letter to an individual so he’s able to speak and talk to him in a way that’s very, very personal. And I appreciate it. Similar to how we would be with one of our children versus an entire classroom of people in a gymnasium. We’re going to have a different conversation with that child than we would in front of that child’s class. I think there’s some of that going on here.

  00:22:35 When we talked about mentoring, I love that the real mentor, or in this case the real mediator, is Jesus Christ. He’s not the one he’s trying to get Timothy to become like. It’s Jesus Christ who is the mediator between them and God, and He recognizes that. That’s verse five, “There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”

Hank Smith: 00:22:52 Awesome.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:22:53 I think all good leaders, all good mentors try to get people not to them, but they try to get them to Christ. That’s a sign, I think, of a good mentor, a good leader.

Hank Smith: 00:23:00 Barb, it seems that in Ephesus Timothy is dealing with some specific problems that Paul is going to address. I think every bishop or Relief Society president out there could say, “Yeah, our ward, our branch has specific problems that I’m trying to figure out.” Isn’t that what happens next? Doesn’t Paul say, “Okay, here’s a couple of things I know you’re dealing with. Let’s talk about those.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:23:25 I always think that these are funny verses, and as a woman and especially as a religion professor and one who teaches the gospel and has taught throughout my life, every time I see these I just laugh and then I have this moment of I need to leave my job and-

Hank Smith: 00:23:37 and go be quiet.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:23:38 … sit in my hole in the basement and not talk to my husband or anyone else because women are supposed to be silence. That’s clearly not what he’s saying here. He is talking to a specific group of people. He’s dealing with a specific group of individuals in this case, and I just think we have to remember that in general. It’s a specific letter to Timothy at a time for a specific group of people. I often teach that you have doctrines, principles, applications, or policies and procedures. He’s not saying that there’s a doctrine of making women be silent. That is not a doctrine, it’s not generalizable. We’re not talking about the whole world. It’s simply in his congregation or wherever he is at this time, whatever they’re trying to do, which we don’t know exactly, that he needs to help all people together. And in this case, he’s speaking to this specific group of women.

  00:24:19 There have been some studies about who these women were and what they were doing, et cetera, et cetera. Even more than that, I hope we recognize in our day we have prophets, seers, and revelators that have absolutely taught the opposite of this. Not that Paul was wrong, but again, it was a policy or something at that moment that he was teaching Timothy. In our day, we have President Nelson. I have so many quotes and so many teachings of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 that I use on a regular basis with my students, but mostly it is President Nelson speaking to women. We need women to speak up and speak out. We have Elder Ballard speaking in 2014 at Education Week and he’s saying, “Women, we need you to know the doctrine of Jesus Christ so well, and we need you to teach the doctrine, the principles of the gospel around the firesides in your homes.” We have President Eyring who was telling the women of the church in 2018, “You are the primary gospel instructors in your home, and you need to be able to teach the gospel with power.” President Oaks telling women that they have priesthood power, and authority and that they can speak with authority of God and through our temple covenants.

  00:25:22 I mean if there has ever been a First Presidency that has asked more for the women of the church to speak out more, I don’t know who it is, with maybe the exception of Joseph Smith, frankly. And maybe Adam with Eve. I don’t know what their relationship was, but clearly Eve was also making important decisions. That’s spoken of a little bit later here. But we have leaders of the church that are not just asking women but pleading women, directing women, speaking to women and saying that Israel can’t be gathered until the women of the church understand their priesthood power and authority and speak with this power and authority they’ve been given. This is kind of fun and maybe a little bit laughable, I can imagine it probably offended a few women back in the day. But I just want to clarify that this is not what the direction is of the church today. This is not what’s being taught to the women of the church.

  00:26:05 I will say, if anybody ever desires, there’s a great talk by President Ballard I was just referring to where he actually talks to women about how to counsel well and how to speak well and to remember that in any meeting that when we are counseling that there is a bishop or a leader who is a key holder and just to remember the importance of the key holder. That’s not just to women, that’s to men as well. Everyone in the room I think is wise to understand that there is a bishop or is a stake president who is a key holder, and that’s the form of the church, that he presides in those meetings. However, I hope we also understand that that is not the pattern in the home. As Elder Soares recently taught and President Hinkley has taught often, President Nelson has taught often, in a relationship between a husband and a wife, there is no president and vice president. They’re counselors together, so together they work to build that faith.

  00:26:51 Sometimes we try to put the hierarchical structure of the church and put it on a transparency of the family. It doesn’t work that way, you can’t do that. There is a stake president who presides in the stake, and he is the final say, but in a couple relationship, they are counselors together. There’s not a president and a vice president. Elder Soares talks about that so well in his recent talk on that. But in here just to make sure that we understand. And then it goes to Eve, “For Adam was first formed, then Eve.” I don’t know exactly how to talk about and capitalize on this except to say that if we go into our scriptures and understand later in the Doctrine & Covenants that the Lord refers to Eve as glorious Mother Eve, and President Nelson asks the women of the church in 2019 to have the courage of Mother Eve as they move forward their families and growth, et cetera, et cetera. Eve becomes in our day, which is a unique teaching of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, one who has been called courageous and glorious and one who was able to lead the kingdom and move families forward through righteousness.

Hank Smith: 00:27:49 Fantastic. There’s a Christian writer by the name of Marg Mowczko. I like what she says here. She says, “Verses in 1 Timothy are about specific people and specific problems in the Ephesian church. Paul addresses the problem of specific women, certain rich women who were wearing luxurious hairstyles, jewels, and expensive clothing.” I’ve heard it said before that in Ephesus apparently there were some women who had turned church into a fashion show and that was leading to all sorts of problems for all the other people in this branch. She says, “These two verses do not refer to all Christian women, only to those Ephesian women who are showing off their wealth, and this is why Paul offers this correction.” I like that, Paul did not intend this to be for all Christianity for the rest of time. He was addressing a specific problem that was happening in Timothy’s ward, you might say, in Ephesus.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:28:53 Yeah. To that point too, I was just reminded of President Nelson how he spoke to the women in the talk Spiritual Treasures in 2019, where he asked the women of the church to study Doctrine & Covenants section 25 and the teachings to Emma Smith and reminds us that it’s applicable to all. And of course, in this case I’m thinking about all women. I love what you were saying before, John, with they want the women to learn. In section 25 verse eight, the Lord says, “For he shall lay His hands upon thee, and thou shall receive the Holy Ghost, and thy time shall be given for writing and to learning much.” There is one thing that we really do well in the church as leaders of the church and hopefully in our families, it is that women are encouraged to learn, women are encouraged to be scriptorians.

  00:29:37 We really have leaders of the church that are trying to get women to learn, to be grounded, to be wise in the understanding of the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ. Men as well. Let me just share with you a couple of quotes. This one comes from President Eyring, he says, “The Lord is at the head of this church, and we all follow His direction. Both men and women need increased faith and testimony of the life and the Atonement of Jesus Christ and increased knowledge of His teachings and doctrine. We need clear minds so that the Holy Ghost can teach us what to do and what to say. We need to think straight in this world of confusion and disregard of the things of God.” And then he says specifically to sisters, “Sisters, your sphere of influence is unique, one that cannot be duplicated by men. No one can defend our Savior with any more persuasion or power as you the daughters of God can, you who have such inner strength and conviction. The power of a converted woman’s voice is immeasurable and the church needs your voice now more than ever.”

  00:30:35 It’s such a beautiful quote and a beautiful reminder. That’s one from Elder Ballard, another one regarding Eve, I love this one as well, “Attacks against the church,” this is President Nelson, “its doctrine, and our way of life are going to increase. Because of this, we need women who have a bedrock understanding of the doctrine of Christ and who will use that understanding to teach and help raise a sin-resistant generation. We need women who can detect deception in all of its forms. We need women who know how to access the power that God makes available to covenant keepers and who express their beliefs with confidence and charity”, and then “we need women who have the courage and the vision of Mother Eve.”

  00:31:14 President Nelson again, I’ll just give you one more, “My dear sisters, whatever your calling, whatever your circumstances, we need your impressions, your insights, and your inspiration. We need you to speak up and speak out in ward and stake councils. We need each married sister to speak as a contributor and full partner as you unite with your husband and governing your family. Married or single, you sisters possess distinctive capabilities and special intuition you have received as gifts from God. We brethren cannot duplicate your unique influence.”

  00:31:45 As a woman myself, I can’t tell you how much I appreciate other women and men who get this principle. I appreciate men when they ask for feedback, when they actually want the feedback and it’s not just ornamental as we’ve been told as well. President Ballard has talked so much about counseling. I interviewed Sister Elaine Jack recently about counseling and how she felt that she was listened to as a woman and that she was never intimidated by the First Presidency senior leaders of the church at that time, that her voice was wisely taken into consideration. Same with the leaders of the church today. I’ve been in some of those councils and I’ve watched the opportunity for women leaders to really express themselves, how important it’s for the men and women, key holders especially, to help and guide women in their ability to do so and the women being ready to say something and having prayed and prepared for those meetings that we have with each other so that we are all equal partners in helping build the kingdom of God.

Hank Smith: 00:32:40 Barb, you even brought up the fact that Paul mentions Timothy’s mother and grandmother in his second letter to Timothy. He says, “I want you to remember the faith that is in me, which was first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice.” There seems to be in other writings of Paul this respect for the faith of women and their influence.

John Bytheway: 00:33:02 This is great. I love when I teach 2 Nephi 2 to talk about that line, “Our glorious Mother Eve,” from the Doctrine and Covenants. I love to say to my students, “I challenge you to find anything like that in mainstream Christianity that calls Eve our glorious Mother Eve.” And then it’s followed by, “and many of her faithful daughters.” What Joseph Smith saw in the spirit world. I’m glad you mentioned that phrase, Barbara.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:33:27 I love these verses where it talks about these women, the silent women in here almost, but you can tell how powerful they are. Paul writes to Timothy, “When I call to remember, it’s the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois and thy mother Eunice, and I am persuaded that in thee also.” I love it when people talk about my mother and grandmother, they both passed away, and I love it when there are strong people who say, “Barb, you’re just like your mom” or “Barb, you’re just like your grandma. Your faith is so much like your grandmother’s. Your knowledge of the gospel was clearly rooted from your mother. The apple didn’t fall far from the tree.”

  00:34:05 I love when people say that to me, and I think this is what Paul is saying to Timothy. I’m sure Timothy’s heart was just so happy of that recognition and that tie into his mother and grandmother. They were unfeigned in the faith. Yet another great talk that President Nelson gave to women, he has given so many great talks to women, this one’s Embrace the Future with Faith. He makes the statement to sisters, he says, “Dear sisters, you are adept at creating places of security for yourselves and those you love. Further, you have a divine endowment that enables you to build faith in others in compelling ways, and you never stop. You have demonstrated that once again this year.”

  00:34:41 I love this in the footnote. And one of the things I love also about President Nelson, if you want to find a really good talk and you want a really good scripture study, go to President Nelson’s footnotes. That prophet I think has been footnoting more than any other leader of the church. I mean, there are talks within talks within talks if you read his footnotes. But in this footnote he actually addresses this exact scripture, 2 Timothy 1:5, and he writes, “The apostle Paul signaled this reality when he attributed Timothy’s unfeigned faith to his mother Eunice and his grandmother Lois.” Then President Nelson says to us, “Please keep going.” I just love that he’s tying it into these women. Please keep going. Your vigilance in safeguarding your homes and instilling faith in your hearts and the hearts of your loved ones will reap rewards for generations to come. And then my sisters, you have so much to look forward to.

  00:35:29 Maybe Hank and John, perhaps that idea from President Nelson where he says, “Your vigilance in safeguarding your home,” brings us also back to what we were talking about before with modesty with women. I know that this can be such a difficult topic. I know that sometimes we get really caught up in who should be able to say what and who can tell me what I can do with these types of things, and I know it’s hard and it’s painful for many people and there’s been a lot of back and forth. I think it’s important that we just simply understand again, in my very humble opinion, modesty is not about dress and appearance as it is about our heart and it is about our covenant and our commitment to God.

  00:36:12 It’s the same thing President Nelson says about the Sabbath day, “When we truly understand the doctrines and principles and truths associated with the Sabbath day in helping us understand that is applied to the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we don’t need a yes and a no, we don’t need specific things that we need to do. We want to show Christ that how we keep the Sabbath day is, in a sense, an outward appearance of what is in our heart.” I would say that is the same thing with modesty. How we dress is an outward appearance of the covenant that we have made with God and an understanding of our identity.

  00:36:43 When we are baptized as members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we state that we are willing to take upon ourselves the name of Christ. When I take upon myself the name of Christ, that means I dress like Christ would have me dress, I act as Christ would have me act, I speak as He would have me speak. Modesty is simply a component. It’s a leaf on the tree, as I would explain, of what we do to show our commitment and our covenant relationship with God. It’s very important, especially in this day and age. I believe that there are many who would have a say simply that we dress according to popularity or we dress according to the tradition or what we see around us. But just in everything that Paul is teaching to Timothy, it’s not about what the world teaches.

  00:37:24 Paul is trying to ground Timothy and Timothy to ground his people in making decisions based upon doctrine and principles. So when I ask myself, “What am I willing to wear?” well, it depends on where I’m going. If I’m going to the swimming pool, I’ll probably wear a swimsuit. If I’m going to school, I’m going to wear something that is appropriate as a professor to be teaching the gospel of Jesus Christ and be representing Him in that manner. But there is nowhere that I’m going to go that I’m in any way going to say, “Today I decided to not take upon myself the name of Jesus Christ.” I want to show what a covenant-keeping daughter who identifies herself as a daughter of God and who has divine nature and a divine destiny would dress. I think if we understand these principles and we are genuinely striving to have that testimony of Jesus Christ and live that way, we will say, “Am I dressing according to popularity, or am I dressing according to covenant?” And I think that we can make those decisions.

  00:38:16 I think one of the things that becomes hard for young women especially, and for older women, is we don’t want to be told the yeses and the nos. But if we build each other and teach the doctrines and the principles associated with we have made a covenant with Christ, we are bought with a price genuinely through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, and what I wear identifies me as one who takes upon or is willing to take upon me the name of Christ, that will drive what I’m willing to wear. I’m not looking horizontal. I’m not looking at what other people think of me in a negative or even a positive way. I’m thinking about what the Lord thinks about how I feel about Him with my body that is bought with His price, His Atonement, His blood. How am I strengthening myself and how am I strengthening those I care about by how I dress?

  00:38:58 And that makes a big difference if we can teach each other, the young women, the young men as well. Modesty, again, it goes to every individual in the world. I also love Joseph Smith where he teaches, “We teach them correct principles, and we let them govern themselves.” This deals with modesty. It deals with everything else in the church. Sometimes we think, “We’re just going to let our young men or our young women decide what they want to wear and just tell them we love them and try to help them in that way.” I’m not going to let my daughters start smoking just to see if they like it. I’m not going to let my daughters jump into a car to see how they feel about it. Joseph Smith says, “We teach them correct principles, and let them govern themselves.” They don’t govern themselves until they know the correct principles and they understand those principles. And it’s the same with modesty and how I let my daughters dress. I’m teaching them principles of who they are as divine daughters of God, divine sons of God, and then I ask them the questions, “How would you feel in the presence of God? Do you feel like when you’re dressed wearing this way that you are truly taking upon yourself the name of Christ?”

  00:39:54 Not in a demeaning or not in a judgmental way, just genuinely I’m helping them be self-reliant. “How does this make you feel as a daughter of God? How does this make others around you feel? How can you dress in such a way that will bring others to Christ?” We’re all missionaries, and it’s not that we’re saying that we are responsible for how other people feel, but in all that we do, our light and how we live our lives does influence other people. Remember your covenants and teach that kind of understanding.

  00:40:21 When I was younger, I used to chew gum a lot, like a lot. I remember my mom in sacrament meeting one day, this has to do with modesty just as much as it has to do with gum chewing, I remember my mom saying, “Barb,” and I was so bugged at the moment, I know, I was probably 12, “Barb, you’re chewing your gum in sacrament meeting, and the way you’re chewing your gum is a distraction to the people around you. They’re not able to partake of the sacrament and have a sacred experience they otherwise could have.” There’s nothing wrong with that. I hope we understand that the way I was chewing my gum was a distraction. There is a principle of distraction in this world, and the way I was chewing my gum was a distraction to those people around me, and I appreciated that.

  00:40:54 I recognized that people were not able to have the sacred experience they needed to in that sacrament meeting because I was so loud and so obnoxious in the way I was chewing. And yeah, I was offended for a moment and I was like, “Mom, whatever.” So I chewed my gum louder for two minutes just to show her that I was in control of my life, but then as an older individual, I recognized mom’s surprisingly right. And now, believe it or not, I actually don’t chew gum often on Sundays unless I have a headache and I need the smell of the gum over the smell of the perfume in church.

  00:41:24 I think it’s the same thing with modesty. I think we just recognize that we are children of God and we’re all trying to come unto Christ. How can we be an instrument in God’s hands in helping ourselves and others, first, understand their own identity and dress according to our covenants? And then second, how can we help other people make and keep their sacred covenants? Just a few thoughts.

Hank Smith: 00:41:42 Sister Dalton said that same thing, “Modesty is often talked of in terms of dress and appearance, but modesty encompasses much more than outward appearance. It’s a condition of the heart. It’s an outward manifestation of an inner knowledge and commitment. It’s an expression that we understand our identity as children of God. It’s an expression that we know what He expects of us. It’s a declaration of our covenant keeping.” Barb, I’m sure you would absolutely agree with this here, in our talking about modesty, it is never okay to shame, ridicule, belittle, or judge someone by the clothing that they wear. I’ve seen that before in the church, hopefully not in huge ways all over, but where someone will say, “The way you dress is affecting the thoughts of others.” The thoughts of others are up to them. I tell my own teenage boys, “Look, your thoughts are up to you. You don’t blame someone else for the thoughts you have.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:42:44 Yeah, there’s no question that we are all responsible for our own thoughts and our own actions. It’s not one or the other. There’s also no question that what I say and what I do affects other people. We are not on islands by ourselves, and that’s one of the beauties of we are in covenant relationships with God but we live in families, we live with friends, we live in church. I hope it’s just like any other topic in the church, we do our best to be covenant leaders and to be covenant followers of Jesus Christ and we don’t judge other people in doing so unless there’s a specific responsibility of a bishop to be a judge in Israel. But as individuals, we’re not judging, we’re not condemning and doing anything like that. In fact, that’s what also is going to drive people away.

  00:43:26 So I think it’s two things, and I think this is wisdom: we ourselves recognize and understand the truths and the doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ, and we live accordingly. We don’t judge other people according to how they live. But we also don’t make excuses for ourselves based upon the possibility of somebody else judging us. So I will dress regardless, and I will do what the Lord would have me to do because of my covenant relationship with Him. I have a responsibility to teach my children and to teach other people to live according to the laws and commandments of God. But I also have a responsibility to be kind and loving and full of charity and understand that there are people who do not have and will not be judged according to what I know.

  00:44:09 I grew up in Oregon. I just went to my 30th year high school reunion. There were people that would not be wearing clothes that would be in alignment with what the church teaches today, nor were they drinking things, nor were they discussing things, nor was their language, in many cases, according to perhaps what we would consider in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints saying something that is perhaps appropriate in our terminology. But these are my dearest friends. They live wonderfully according to what they know. Modesty for me is going to be different than modesty for some of them because they genuinely were dressing what they thought was appropriate for that experience. It’s just that when we make covenants with God and we understand those covenants, perhaps it puts us, as President Nelson says, in a position to live a higher and a holier way. The question really is, where is our commitment to God and are we willing to live in a higher and holier way? But that also includes not judging in a higher and holier way. It includes loving in a higher and holier way. So it’s us becoming more like Christ, living the covenant, but also not judging according to the covenant. It goes both ways.

Hank Smith: 00:45:08 With youth today, both young men and young women, there is such an emphasis on being judged by the way you look. We don’t need more of that coming from church members.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:45:20 Yeah, that’s another talk yet by President Nelson, where he talks about the person comes home from their mission or if a person lives like… Our job is not to judge them, our job is to love them. On the other side, it’s also important as mothers and as parents, our job is also to teach them, and our job is also to help them. So it depends on our responsibility. It depends on our stewardship. I think you can never go wrong with love. One of the things that we know about love is we love best when we stay close to God, when we stay close to how He would have us love. When we learn to love the way God loves, we will help everyone in the process.

  00:45:53 President Nelson has that great quote where he is talking to BYU students just a few years ago, and he’s talking to them about the truth, so he’s talking about five truths that he has, where he says, “Sometimes we as leaders of the church are criticized for holding firm to the laws of God, defending the Savior’s doctrine and resisting the social pressures of the day. But our commission as ordained apostles is to go into all the world to preach His gospel unto every creature. That means we are commanded to teach truth. In doing so, sometimes we are accused of being uncaring as we teach the Father’s requirement for exaltation in the celestial kingdom. But wouldn’t it be far more uncaring for us not to tell the truth, not to teach what God has revealed? It is precisely because we do care deeply about all of God’s children that we proclaim His truth. We may not always tell people what they want to hear, prophets are rarely popular, but we will always teach the truth.”

  00:46:42 I want to know what the leaders of the church are teaching about specific topics. And I want the agency to be able to decide, which is what the prophets do, and I believe that the more of a covenant keeper I am, the more I’m going to be aligned with God. I also want the freedom to not judge other people. I’m grateful that I am not a judge in any capacity. I’m not the judge. I want the truth taught, and I want it taught clearly, and I also want to recognize that I’m not the judge of how anybody else lives their lives. But I am a teacher, I am a mentor, and I want to help people. There’s more to the topic than just this or that. It’s, let’s talk. I think that’s a lot of what Paul is doing to Timothy too. He’s not just saying, “This, this, this.” He’s having a conversation in writing with him. He’s guiding him through this process of how people may respond to things, how people may be offended. Let’s talk about the doctrine, let’s love people, and let’s do so with grace and with charity. He’s teaching a teacher. He’s teaching a future missionary, a future leader. It’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:47:36 Yeah, it’s great. When I heard church had become a fashion show in Ephesus, I was like, “I wonder if I ever treat it that way. Am I going to go get my really nice suit and I’m going to show my fellow members how important I am by my nice clothes?”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:47:54 There’s this great talk by Elder Bednar because it deals with the young men. It’s the principle of non-distraction. I mean, he talks about this. In the sacrament, we don’t want to do things that will cause distraction, but in some ways we’re in control of our thoughts. We are, but we’re also influenced. That’s become a very popular thing to say, “No one else can influence your thoughts,” well, they really can. I mean, the key is what you do with the thoughts. But if you see a billboard on there and it tells you to… There’s a reason why advertising gets a lot of money.

John Bytheway: 00:48:22 I remember a few years ago specifically deciding not to wear a necktie of one of my favorite teams because I didn’t want this place of worship to be a distraction for somebody who liked another team, to feel like here’s a chance to gloat. So I liked that idea of I didn’t want to be part of that, that was making somebody else… I just like this idea of a guide on the side and the principle of, what’s our focus at sacrament? It is the sacrament table. It is the Savior. He’s ransoming us, His sacrifice. I wouldn’t ever want to get in the way of the reason why we worship type of a thing.

Hank Smith: 00:49:01 I remember, John, you telling me once, it’s vicarious…

John Bytheway: 00:49:05 About sports?

Hank Smith: 00:49:07 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:49:08 There was an article I read, and the article was called The Vicarious Heroism of the Sports Spectator. It talked about professional sports, especially the NBA and stuff, where for a commercial reason, I want you to be emotionally think you are part of the team because that will commercially help us be successful. So it’s your Utah Jazz that are playing tonight.

Hank Smith: 00:49:34 The Vicarious Heroism of the Sports Spectator. I have been guilty of that, I think.

John Bytheway: 00:49:40 So have I.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:49:40 I think that non-distraction, we see that in Paul writing to Timothy, this idea and the worldliness of some things. In chapter four of 2 Timothy starting in verse one, he says, “I charge thee therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.” So first of all, God is the judge. But then he says this, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers having itching ears, and they turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned unto fables. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of the evangelists, make full proof of thy ministry.”

  00:50:19 In other words, there are going to be those who will not listen to truth or who will not want to be in line with what the leaders of the church are saying because it’s not pleasing to them. It doesn’t jive with the way they dress. It doesn’t work with the way they think. It doesn’t fulfill the desires of their hearts or what they think is best or what culture is teaching them. And it says that they’re not going to be pleased with you because you may teach something that is contrary to what they want. It’s choosing to be offended by things. We have to recognize that the prophets and leaders of this church are trying to help us become like Christ. Or I need to realize the leaders of church are trying to help me become like Christ. There are things in my life that they have taught in the past that perhaps I might have difficulty with and I may not have understood, but I have to say, “What is their role, and what are they trying to do? What are they trying to guide me to do?”

  00:51:04 I love in verse 10 where he says, “For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world.” He cares so much about the things of the world, he cares so much about how people perceive him, again, it’s this horizontal look, that he actually uses the word forsake. I think that that’s something I myself have to recognize. In a world where moral relativity is the answer to most things, God is not morally relative. God is absolute in truth. In my case, I want to live my life according to what God would have me be because in the premortal world, I wanted the kind of life He had. And so I don’t want the life that the world gives me, I want the life that our heavenly parents have. That’s what I want.

  00:51:47 We as leaders, as teachers, as friends, younger, older, whatever else, to think to ourselves, “I chose to come to this world. I have leaders who are trying to teach me the truth. Why would I reject that or why would I even be rebellious? Why would I be edgy? I want to be like them.” And that’s this principle of non-distraction. It’s not just in what we wear, it’s in all that we do. It’s in how we keep the Sabbath day holy. It’s in how we treat other people. This is what Elder Bednar says about the principle of non-distraction, it says, “President Dallin H. Oaks spoke in general conference in 1998 about Aaronic Priesthood holders,” so this is specifically to the young men, “related to preparing and administering the sacrament. He described the principle of non-distraction and indicated that a holder of the Aaronic Priesthood would never want anything in his appearance or behavior to distract any member of the church from his or her worship and renewal of covenants. President Oaks also emphasized the related principles of orderliness, cleanliness, reverence, and dignity.”

  00:52:38 So again, he’s not saying that these young 11, 12, 13-year-olds have the responsibility of what other people are thinking, but he is saying that they do impact and influence. It’s just simply that there’s a principle of non-distraction and what they do does influence and impact other people. And then he continues, “Interestingly, President Oaks did not provide for the young men a lengthy list of things to do and not to do. Rather, he explained the principal with the expectation that the young men and their parents and teachers could and should use their own judgment and inspiration to follow the guideline.” And then finally he explained, “I will not suggest detailed rules since the circumstances in various wards and branches in our worldwide church are so different that a specific rule that seems required in one setting may be inappropriate in another. Rather, I will suggest a principle based on the doctrine. If all understand this principle and act in harmony with it, there should be little need for rules. If rules or counseling are needed in individual cases, local leaders can provide them consistent with doctrines and their related principles.”

  00:53:37 I remember one time being in Jordan with my husband, and I went out to this big resort wearing what I considered an extremely modest swimsuit. I don’t remember feeling so immodest in my entire life.

Hank Smith: 00:53:48 Oh really?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:53:49 Because as I looked around, the majority of the women were wearing pants and headdresses and their bodies were covered based upon their religious beliefs and their culture in that area. I just simply said to my husband, “I need to go change. I’m not just out of place in a horizontal way, but I’m feeling like because of this I’m creating an experience where I’m influencing or impacting other people in a way that they don’t consider appropriate in this culture.” It wasn’t that I was doing something wrong, it wasn’t my responsibility necessarily. I just wanted to be respectful of who they were. I wanted to be respectful of their culture and their beliefs. This is something that I would like to do just as a disciple of Christ, to be respectful of people. And I did in that case.

  00:54:29 I’m not saying everybody should, it was just me, my own decision. In that atmosphere, I just felt like as a covenant-keeping member of Christ, of the church I want to help people feel comfortable and I want to be respectful of people. So I’m going to go use my agency to create an atmosphere that other people are comfortable in as well in a righteous manner. I don’t know that anybody would judge me, I honestly have no idea, but I just knew that I didn’t want to be a distraction to what they were trying to accomplish.

John Bytheway: 00:54:54 That’s wonderful. I felt something similar once at the Western Wall the first time I ever went there, which was so unexpectedly emotional for me just to go there and watch all of these Orthodox Jews come down just dressed to the nines and touching the wall. I felt like they were being so reverent and I was standing there in blue jeans and a Salt Lake City 2002 Olympics jacket. I’ll never forget that feeling, “Wow, I feel underdressed right now.” It was a strange feeling.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:55:26 It’s very real there, some of those sacred places and things to other people. And that’s how the church is. My sister was visiting me yesterday. This is a Utah thing. She came to my home last night and she was dressed in a casual shirt and casual pants and she said she just went to a reception and she’d never felt so underdressed in her life. In Oregon, we often don’t dress up quite as much as we do in Utah to attend something. We’re just more casual about things. She just made the comment, “I just felt so out of place.” It doesn’t mean she did something wrong.

  00:55:57 As time goes on, we learn lessons that perhaps in this case it’s a cultural thing, but again, the most important thing that we’re doing is focusing on a relationship with Christ. I remember walking into my aunt’s house when I was a child and she had white carpet and a very nice, pristine home. I never had a white carpet ever in my life. Even if it was white, by the time I came along, nothing was white. I remember going into the house, running up the stairs, going up to my cousin’s house to see her room and looking back and I had a trail of dirt behind me.

  00:56:28 I cringed. My aunt was so kind. She was already cleaning the floor. Didn’t say a word, wasn’t judging. She was just on her hands and knees and cleaning up all the dirt right behind me as I was running up the stairs. It had nothing to do with how she was judging me or how I was feeling, that wasn’t it. It was her showing so much Christ-like love as she just simply gave me a hug, thanked me, and cleaned up my mess. But it was a reminder for me later to just be careful or maybe wipe my feet next time. But it’s also reminded me, when I am standing face to face with God, as it teaches us in Section 121, my confidence will wax strong because of my virtue. Virtue and power, it’s all that we are. We impact each other, we impact people, but most importantly, it’s God that we are trying to have that covenant relationship with. We are proving to ourselves, really, because God already knows, but we’re proving to ourselves our covenant relationship with God, with Him, what we are really made of inside.

Hank Smith: 00:57:23 Perfect.

John Bytheway: 00:57:24 My friend, well, he’s my stake president now, but his dad was temple president in San Antonio. They’re out golfing, and the fire department calls them and says, “We have a fire alarm at the San Antonio Temple. We won’t enter until you get here, but we have to make sure the building’s okay. We know you don’t want us to enter.” So in their golfing attire, they ran to the temple, and Bob, my friend says, “We went in and my dad said, ‘Go check out the Celestial Room.'” And he said, “I was wearing black Bermuda shorts and a golf shirt. I felt my skin crawl walking into the Celestial Room wearing that.” He said, “I got back in the car and said, ‘Dad, that was just really hard to do that in what I was wearing.'” And his dad was like, “Yeah, what do you think that means?” Just let him think about it.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:58:16 I remember, I was with two of my very dear friends, we were in Hawaii. We had just gone snorkeling in this beautiful area. We wanted to just see the new temple that was built there. I think it was on the big island, and we were literally in our swimsuits and lavalavas walking just… We had nothing to change into, but our heart was we wanted to see the temple. We just wanted to take pictures of the temple and just have this temple experience. But we weren’t going in or anything, we just wanted to see it. We were feeling a little bit sheepish in our clothing, but we knew our hearts were in the right place. So we got up closer to the temple as we were walking around thinking that the temple was actually closed because there were so few people that were in the area.

  00:58:52 The door to the temple opens, and then this gentleman calls out to us, “Sisters, would you be able to perform some ordinances today?” We looked at each other, we’re wearing our swimsuits, our lavalavas, we were soaking wet, just coming out of the beach, and we just looked like a disaster. We just said, “We are not in appropriate clothing.” His comment was, “The appropriateness of your clothing is not what’s important right now. Are you worthy before God, and do you hold a temple recommend?” “Yes.” “Well, we could really use your help today. Would you please come do some ordinances?” We just said, “Okay.”

  00:59:22 I went in the temple in my swimsuit. And again, it was where my heart was, it was my relationship with God, but it was so silly. These experiences may be extreme, but I think that’s the key, is we’re not judging each other. I mean, any person who saw me walking into the temple, if they had any desire to judge anyone and take a picture and post it anywhere of me being a rebellious individual could have taken that picture that day. That wasn’t the point. It was me and God. That’s all it was. It was I understood God, He understood me, and I’m entering that temple for this purpose. It may be an extenuating circumstance. But that’s the point, it’s between me and the Lord. We didn’t judge each other, we just did it.

John Bytheway: 00:59:58 Beautiful. The new FSY is just hear Him and let God prevail. That’s it.

Hank Smith: 01:00:07 Please join us for part two of this podcast.