Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Welcome to part two with Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner. 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon. Barb, we’ve been at this for a while and we have covered a little bit of 2 Timothy and a little bit of Titus, but let’s keep going here.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:00:13 Hank, there’s so much to cover here. We could be here all week. But there’s some other important principles that perhaps would be helpful. Maybe chapter 3 where we start talking about bishops just in verse 1. This is a true saying. If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desire a good work. I as a woman, the way the church is currently structured and has been structured for a long time, I cannot see myself ever being a bishop.

  00:00:35 But I will say for those bishops that I have had in my life, I’m so grateful for them. I don’t know of many who desire to be that. What is your experience? Do you guys want to be bishops?

Hank Smith: 00:00:46 Well, every time the bishop vacancy comes up, I put signs in my yard saying, “Smith for Bishop. Smith for Bishop.” For some reason they never choose me.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:00:58 I can’t imagine why.

Hank Smith: 00:01:00 Barb, I imagine we have a few bishops listening who are interested in 1 Timothy chapter 3. What would you say to these men who are in callings they probably did not seek?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:01:11 That’s such a great question. I just considered my own life the many bishops I’ve had since I’ve been a child. I can remember my interview with the bishop for baptism. I remember pleading with my Bishop Eldridge to let me go on a mission when I was 19 and he wouldn’t let me, how things have changed. But I remember his goodness and his kindness. I remember one bishop that I just love dearly in my youth saying to me, “Barb, you’re going to be a leader for good or bad, and before you leave my office, you need to choose which kind of leader you’re going to be.”

  00:01:41 I appreciate his boldness, but also his integrity and his discernment as a bishop and helping and guide me in my life. I remember the bishop who called me on a mission and the bishop that I interviewed with as I was getting prepared to be married and the many bishops I had during my single years and the impact they had and their wives had on me.

  00:01:58 I have loved and had such incredible experiences with bishops and recognize that there’s so much that they have given of their time, especially, and their talents to the Lord. Chapter 3 teaches some incredible principles just like previously when we’re talking about women speaking and not speaking, et cetera in the church. The principles that are taught here are what’s most important, not necessarily the specific to the bishop.

  00:02:17 We don’t necessarily use chapter 3 to guide us through how to be a bishop or how to be a deacon necessarily. But the principles here of who the bishop is and his character I think are critical. Verse 2, a bishop must be blameless. The husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach, and there’s more there as well. I appreciate that the many bishops that I’ve had who have just done their best, of course not perfect, but really are trying to be worthy before the Lord.

  00:02:42 President Hinckley gave a great talk October 1988 called To the Bishops of the Church. He said this … I think the principles fit very well. He says, “Let me now speak directly to the thousands of bishops who are in attendance tonight. Let me say first that I love you for your integrity and goodness. You must be men of integrity. You must stand as examples to the congregations over which you preside. You must stand on higher ground so that you can lift others. You must be absolutely honest for you handle the funds of the Lord, the tithes of the people, the offerings that come of their fasting and the contributions which they make from their own strained resources. How great is your trust as the keepers of the purse of the Lord, even in this financial part as bishops are in charge?”

  00:03:23 Then I love this paragraph, “your goodness must be an ensign to your people. Your morals must be impeccable. The wiles of the adversary may be held before you because he knows that if he can destroy you, he can injure an entire ward. You must be wise with the inspired wisdom in all of your relationships lest someone read into your observed actions, some taint of moral sin. You cannot succumb to the temptations. Then he continues on and on.

  00:03:46 Bishops have a very important calling, and again, they’re not perfect. They have families. We’re all mortal from the prophet on down, from the general relief society president to the wives and the families of and everything. Sometimes bishops have such a hard role as do leaders of the church in any capacity because their life becomes public in so many ways, especially in their own wards.

  00:04:06 But how I appreciate these men who are called of God and who are key holders that really are in a position to preside over a ward as a leader that has been given that assignment by Jesus Christ through the keys of the prophet that come all the way down to him, that he has been given that calling. I believe that these bishops have been called of God and they have this responsibility and these are responsibilities they continue to have.

  00:04:27 But that doesn’t mean it’s easy though. There’s another great story that has been used often, it’s by Elder Holland where he’s talking about an experience between a newly called bishop and his wife. It’s kind of a long story, but I’ll just share this. He says the following, “may I share just one contemporary example of both the challenge and blessings that our calls to serve can bring.

  00:04:46 A wonderful sister recently said to a dear friend, ‘I want to tell you about the moment I ceased resenting my husband’s time and sacrifice as a bishop. It has seemed uncanny how an emergency would arise with a ward member just when he and I were about to go out to do something special together.’” I mean, I just feel it and this is the reality.

  00:05:03 Then she says, “One day, I poured out my frustration and my husband agreed we should guarantee in addition to Monday nights, one additional night a week just for us. Well, the first date night came and we were about to get into the car for an evening together when the telephone rang and you just know what’s going to happen.”

Hank Smith: 00:05:19 Oh, man.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:05:19 “This is a test. I smiled at him. The telephone kept ringing. Remember our agreement. Remember our date. Remember me. Let the phone ring. In the end, I wasn’t smiling.” Then she continues, “My poor husband looked trapped between me and a ringing telephone. I really did know that his highest loyalty was to me and I knew he wanted that evening as much as I did, but he seemed paralyzed by the sound of that telephone.”

  00:05:43 “I’d better at least check,” he said with sad eyes, “It is probably nothing at all.” “If you do, our date is ruined, I cried. I just know it.” He squeezed my hand and said, ‘Be right back.’ He dashed in to pick up the telephone. Well, when my husband didn’t return to the car immediately, I knew what was happening. I got out of the car, went into the house and went to bed. The next morning, he spoke a quiet apology. I spoke an even quieter acceptance and that was the end of it or so I thought.”

  00:06:10 You could just feel what they’re feeling here. You just feel the ache. “Or so I thought,” she says, “I found the event still bothering me several weeks later. I wasn’t blaming my husband, but I was disappointed, nevertheless. The memory was still fresh when I came upon a woman in the ward, I scarcely knew. Very hesitantly, she asked for the opportunity to talk. She then told to becoming infatuated with another man who seemed to bring excitement into her life of drudgery.”

  00:06:36 “She with a husband who worked full-time and carried a full load of classes at the university, their department was confining. She had small children who were often demanding, noisy and exhausting.” She said, “I was sorely tempted to leave what I saw as my wretched state and just go with this man. My situation was such that I felt I deserved better than what I had. My rationalization persuaded me to think I could walk away from my husband, my children, my temple covenants and my church and find happiness with a stranger.”

  00:07:05 Then she continues. She said, “The plan was set. The time for my escape was agreed upon. Yet as if in a last gas of sanity my conscience told me to call your husband, my bishop. I say conscience, but I know that that was a spiritual prompting directly from heaven. Almost against my will I called, the telephone rang and rang and rang. Such was a state of my mind that I actually thought if the bishop doesn’t answer, that will be a sign I should go through with my plan.”

  00:07:31 “The phone kept ringing and I was about to hang up and walk straight into the destruction. When suddenly I heard your husband’s voice. It penetrated my soul like lightning. Suddenly I heard myself sobbing saying, Bishop, is that you? I am in trouble. I need help. Your husband came with help and I am safe today because he answered that telephone.”

  00:07:53 Then she reflects. “I look back and I realize I was tired and foolish and vulnerable. I loved my husband and my children with all of my heart. I can’t imagine the tragedy my life would be without them. These are still demanding times for our family. I know everyone has them, but we have addressed some of these issues and things are looking better. They always do eventually.”

  00:08:12 Then she said, “I don’t know you well, but I wish to thank you for supporting your husband and his calling. I don’t know what the cost for such service has been to you or to your children, but if on a difficult day there is a particularly personal cost, please know how eternally grateful I will be for the sacrifice people like you make to help rescue people like me.”

  00:08:31 Then finally, “Brothers and sisters, please understand that I am one who preaches emphatically a more manageable, more realistic expectation.” That’s Holland. But I feel for the woman who’s having the experience where the bishop is leaving and has to go again. But I also feel for the woman who desperately needs a bishop and someone who actually really does care for her and has those keys and that ability to help.

  00:08:50 Of course, in our recent day, we’ve been given so many responsibilities and the bishops are delegating so well and have that assignment to do so. But regardless, that assignment of being a bishop is a difficult time-consuming assignment. I’m so grateful for these bishops. I’m so grateful for their work. Shout out to bishops and their families.

Hank Smith: 00:09:05 Barb, there’s such a balance there that’s so hard for many to find that balance. Elder Holland, he even acknowledges that in that talk you read.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:09:15 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:09:15 He says, “I am adamant about spouses and children deserving sacred, committed time with a husband and father.” 9 times out of 10, I would’ve been right along that wife telling your husband, “Do not answer that telephone.” But I am as grateful in my own way as that young woman was in hers, that in this instant this bishop was there.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:09:38 Elder Bednar has talked a number of occasions and throughout the world on balance. But I’ve listened to him talk to those in South America where he’s being translated and he’s been asked, “How do you balance your life?” There was a young bishop asking, “How do you balance your work and your family and your children and all these different things that you have on?”

  00:09:55 He just says, “You can’t if you can’t balance all of these things.” But then he teaches an important principle. Again, you have to say “yes” to some things and “no” to some things. If you’re always saying “no” to your child, then you’ll probably need to say “yes” to your child the next time he wants you to throw a football with him.

  00:10:12 But if you’re always saying “no” to your stake calling or your bishop calling or whatever it is, then you probably need to be saying “yes” a little bit more to that. The key is to not always have the same answer to both, but just recognize that there are exceptions you’re trying to fulfill. In this case, he’s talking about keeping plates up in the yard. He talks about the Chinese dancers who have this … They’re spinning their plates and people have different capacities to spin different plates.

  00:10:35 Some people can spin 10, some people can spin 2, but you need to know your capacity. Then the key is once you know your priorities, you keep those plates spinning and sometimes you just have to look, is this plate about ready to fall and then give it a spin and then go to the next one is this and then give it a spin. Then you need to know which plates need the most spinning.

  00:10:51 I think that’s not just with bishops, but with all of us in our capacities, all of us are being called to serve and we look at our lives and say, “What needs to be spinning?” Hopefully, the priority is exactly where the Lord needs it to be, and then we recognize that there are exceptions from time to time. He was wise enough to answer the phone call here, which was great.

  00:11:08 I remember when my father, when he was a stake president, he was such a busy individual. But I remember his stake meetings he held. In this case, it’s just an application what worked for him and for our family. But he had most of his stake meetings on Sunday mornings at 5:30 or 6:00 just because in his world, in his life and the way it worked in our stake at that time, he didn’t have any other time to be with his family except for Sundays.

  00:11:31 Sunday mornings were his stake meetings, and then he was home with the family in the afternoons. With my husband, which I appreciate the sacrifice that Dustin gives when I’m out, sometimes speaking at a Fireside or I’m teaching or we’re traveling, but he is very, very supportive of me and we are supportive of each other and we counsel together, sometimes ad nauseum going through our calendars and making sure we sit together monthly on fast Sunday and we talk about our priorities and just to make sure we bring each other back where we need to be.

  00:11:57 We’re far from perfect at it. But regardless of our assignments and our responsibilities, we want to raise our family very intentionally with the help of each other and he supports me and I support him in doing that, regardless of our callings.

Hank Smith: 00:12:10 Fantastic. Barb, thank you for that. We love our bishops. We should probably do a shout-out to our bishops. Bishop Nuttall. John, who’s your bishop?

John Bytheway: 00:12:19 Bishop Ina.

Hank Smith: 00:12:20 Barb, who’s your bishop?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:12:22 Bishop Carroll. He was just called this last month.

Hank Smith: 00:12:25 We love you, our bishops. As we look in chapters 4, 5 and 6 of Timothy. I didn’t realize in the context when I read the verse 1 Timothy 4:12 years ago when it was a youth theme, let no man despise thy youth. I didn’t realize that he’s actually talking to Timothy because Timothy is a young leader. He’s saying people might think because you’re young, you won’t be effective. But he’s saying, “No, you will be effective. You can be effective.”

  00:12:53 What do both of you think of that verse? I mean, it’s been a standout for the church because it was a youth theme, 4:12, let no man despise thy youth. John, I’m sure you’ve talked about this at times in Firesides and things.

John Bytheway: 00:13:05 Yeah. I took this verse apart and it was interesting to me because without the context that we’ve been talking about and I didn’t realize the first-time what Timothy’s age was, and I thought, let no man despise thy youth meant something like be good when you’re young so that people won’t say, “Well, I knew you when you were a youth and you got in a lot of trouble.”

  00:13:26 I looked up some other translations of let no man despise thy youth to see if I had the meaning right. The new international version says, don’t let anyone look down on you because you are young. I thought, “Oh, that’s a different meaning.” The new living translation, don’t let anyone think less of you because you are young. I really loved the idea of don’t worry about your age, just do your duty. It reminded me of a story of William F. Cahoon.

  00:13:54 There’s a book somebody wrote years ago called They Knew the Prophet, people that had personal interactions with the Prophet Joseph Smith. He tells this story about being called to be a ward teacher, and I’ll just paraphrase, but he said, “I felt like shrinking from duty,” that he went alone in those days I guess. He said, “I got to the door and Joseph Smith opened the door.” He said, “Brother Joseph, I’ve come to visit you in the capacity of a ward teacher if it is convenient for you.”

  00:14:20 You can just imagine the reactions he could have got, “Oh, we’re fine. Go see the Petersons down the street.” But he said, “Brother William, come right in. I’m glad to see you. I will go call my wife in.” He got Emma and the kids and he said, “Now, Brother Cahoon, ask all the questions you feel like. You asked them, are you having prayer with your family? Are you teaching your family the principles of the gospel?” You imagine asking. “Are you reading your scriptures?”

  00:14:50 To all of those questions he said, Joseph said, “Yes. We are trying to do that.” Then he turned to Sister Emma and asked her the same kinds of questions about her duties with her family. “Yes. We are trying to do that.” This wonderful young man, he was 17, said, “Brother Joseph, I’m now through with my questions as a teacher and now if you have any advice to give, I shall be happy to receive it.”

  00:15:12 I just love the story. Joseph Smith jumps up, says, “Brother William, God bless you. If you are humble and faithful, you shall be able to settle all difficulties that may come before you in the capacity of a teacher.” That was his feeling. Don’t worry about your age, just go worry about your duty. I love the way that the prophet Joseph Smith treated him, but I also didn’t forget that lesson.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:15:35 John, I appreciate that experience of especially of these young people. When I think of young, we obviously go to Joseph Smith in his early age and having that experience as he’s praying and studying and seeing God the Father and Jesus Christ. He’s 14. In my world though I also go to Joan of Arc. I love Joan of Arc.

  00:15:52 I recently went to France and visited the places that she was born and the places that she traveled to. She’s 13 years old in the 1400s. She says that she hears a voice that she recognizes eventually as one that is coming from God. She was illiterate. She couldn’t even sign her own name. She was a poor peasant. She hears this voice and she recognizes this voice of coming from God and others that God has sent.

  00:16:16 She hears from the Lord that she is to be the leader of the French army and that she is to put King Charles the 7th on the throne. I mean this is ridiculous. She’s 13. No money. Her parents didn’t actually support her in this. She leaves on her own at this age. Continues to hear this voice, and her voice continues to guide her through the next few years until she literally wins battle after battle against the English. Finally gets the king on the throne of France. Again, recorded in her court cases, her explaining that she hears the voice and she’s finally caught.

  00:16:48 She’s put into prison in this very dark, horrible wall of a prison. Why is she going to be killed? Because she as a woman says that she heard the voice of God and they said that that is not right for a woman, but her age is also too young. A person at this age and this gender could not hear God’s voice. God doesn’t speak to her. She would not deny it. She is burned at the stake.

  00:17:15 The last words that she calls out as she is dying, she has a priest hold a cross so that she can see it at the stake and she cries out Jesus, Jesus. Those are the last documented words that we have of Joan of Arc. Her testimony as this youth, she saves an entire nation. In fact, one of the wars that she wins, I just love the story. She is about ready to go into battle with the English. Before they go into battle, she actually gives the sacrament to all of the individuals that are in her army and says that she can’t go on the Sabbath day going into battle with the English until they’ve all partaken of in our terminology, it would be the sacrament.

  00:17:48 They all partake of the sacrament and it scares the English so much that they run away. They won’t go to battle because they recognize that the power of God is with her. In regards to modesty, they say that she shouldn’t be wearing pants in these clothes of the men and she says, this is my own summary, “I wear these clothes because I know that God has a greater call for me and I need to make sure that I’m always pure before the Lord.”

  00:18:08 She wants to serve the Lord. Everything that she does is the call from the Lord. She keeps herself pure. She’s allowed to do these battles and eventually she’s stopped. She’s imprisoned and she’s fighting this battle as a 13 to 19. She’s burned at the cross at the age of 19. If Joan of Arc can be that powerful, if Joseph Smith can be that powerful, all of the youth have the capacity to be that powerful.

  00:18:30 I love that now we have missionaries going out at younger ages. I love that we have these young men and young women that are able to now attend the temple and keep sacred covenants and be witnesses of baptism at a younger age. Just the most beautiful thing, and I believe that the Lord, just like with Timothy, the Lord understands and knows that these youth are incredible and that we have high expectations for them.

  00:18:52 The world is expecting less and less as President Eyring has said, and the world will continue to do so. As the world expects less and less, we as members of the church need to be expecting more and more of our youth. I love the understanding that youth today are supposed to be the presidents of their classes, not assistants. Let them receive revelation. Let them plan activities. Let them reach out to each other.

  00:19:12 These are their quorums. These are their classes. They can receive revelation. They can receive guidance. Let’s get out of the way a little bit. Again, this is a mentoring experience. Let’s be a guide on the side and help these youth fulfill the measure of their creation and be able to use the authority that which they have been given.

  00:19:27 An 11-year-old girl who was a class president of her young woman’s class has priesthood power and authority given to her. Let her use it. Let her learn how to be an instrument in God’s hand in the most positive and the most powerful way that we can help them. I’ve seen so many incredible youth. I was just in Nauvoo Church History trip and I had four young men and two young women who bore testimony of Joseph Smith at Carthage and in the Red Brick Store and it was powerful and the spirit was strong, and I am convinced that they had a serious impact on all those people that heard those testimonies born that day.

  00:20:02 They are young, but they are powerful and they’re saved for this day for a purpose …

Hank Smith: 00:20:04 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:20:05 … and young adults too.

Hank Smith: 00:20:07 Absolutely.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:20:08 Hank, I think about verse 16 there where Paul is writing to Timothy. You can just see this mentoring again. Timothy, you’re young. Take heed unto thyself and unto the doctrine. It’s kind of Joseph Smith, the same ideas. He was young and he was maturing and there were sometimes maybe thoughts and he maybe fell to the follies of men. Timothy, take heed unto yourself. What do you focus on Timothy? Doctrine.

  00:20:33 Again, there are going to be crazy things. He just tells us earlier that there are going to be fables that are going to be taught, old wise fable, he says, and there are going to be people teaching things that are not godly. Take heed unto thyself, Timothy, do what you know is right. Understand the doctrine, make decisions based upon the doctrines and the guidance that we have been given in the church and what Paul has taught him and that he has probably learned in other ways. Then continue in those things.

  00:20:57 Watch yourself. Continue in the doctrine. Then it says, “For in doing this,” and there’s the blessing that comes with it, “Thou shalt both save thyself and them that hear thee.” I love that Paul is trying to help Timothy, and I believe Timothy probably does it naturally, but he’s reaching beyond himself. He’s not just saying, “Timothy, be careful of these things because it may hurt you. Timothy, be careful of these things because what you do impacts other people as well.”

  00:21:23 What you do Timothy know the doctrine so you can make decisions and also know in your youth it’s the Alma to Coriantumr. It’s a father to a son. It’s the Shiblon, it’s the Helaman speaking to their sons. It’s Helaman calling his sons, Nephi. It’s this whole understanding of we are examples to other people. Watch yourself. Know the doctrine yourself and the Lord is going to use you so that you can bless other people and what you need to do, you need to know the doctrine. You need to watch yourself and then remember that you are an example.”

  00:21:51 I believe that if we really give youth those experiences and help them understand, we’re not just teaching them, we’re teaching them to be teachers of others. We’re not just leading them. We’re leading them to be leaders of others. The youth today and the youth back then, the youth always have had an extremely heavy responsibility and it is to get beyond themselves and to serve other people, reach out to the world.

  00:22:10 There are so many ways the youth and the young adults of the church can do that today. I mean it’s everywhere. They serve missions, but they can be on their Instagram accounts, the media, the possibilities, the understanding that the youth have today, teaching people about baptism for the dead. Temples are open to them right and left.

  00:22:25 The more we help the youth get out of themselves, the more they’re going to find themselves because we’re helping them come unto Christ. I think that that’s what Paul is doing here. He’s helping them have those experiences, get beyond yourself. I love that in chapter 5. He says, “Now go take care of your family too.” Take care of your grandparents. Take care. Love people. Serve people. I love in verse 8, “but if any provide not for his own and especially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith and is worse than an infidel.

  00:22:50 Give responsibilities to our youth to take care of their grandparents without pay. Just to go visit, to write a letter to someone, to go knock on the door of a widow. We are talking about widows later. Help them see and experience service and help them apply the atonement of Jesus Christ in their lives so that they can testify and be stronger in the benefit of other people.

  00:23:08 I would say despise not thy youth. Give the youth opportunities and trust that they can do this. They have a serious and incredible capacity.

John Bytheway: 00:23:16 I have a President Nelson quotation. “We need to let the young people lead, particularly those who have been called and set apart to serve in class and quorum presidencies. Priesthood authority will have been delegated to them. They will learn how to receive inspiration in leading their class or quorum.”

  00:23:37 I love that in light of what Elder Oaks said, “Yes. The young women classes have priesthood authority, what other authority could it be,” President Oaks said, “They will learn how to receive inspiration.” It’s interesting when you look at the primary, adults are set apart to administer and run that.

  00:23:53 But when you look at the youth. The youth are set apart. The youth are the ones who are set apart to do that. What a wonderful thing the way the church is organized so that they will have hands-on experience. If you are a bishop or a leader, you can ask them, how have you felt prompted about members of your class this week? What needs do you see in your class or quorum this week? Help them see that’s what a leader does.

  00:24:18 I love those questions. I think those were suggestions from Elder Holland. How have you felt prompted? What needs have you seen? Instead of you telling them what you’re seeing, you can ask them because that’s their job that they’ve been set apart to do.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:24:32 This reminds me so much of Sister Oscarson speaking about the young women when she was the general young women’s president and we talked about bishops. These tie in really well together. She says this to bishops, “Bishops, we know your duties are often heavy. But just as one of your high priorities is to preside over the Aaronic Priesthood Quorums, handbook two explains that the bishop and his counselors provide priesthood leadership for the young women organization.”

  00:24:55 “They watch over and strengthen individual young women, working closely with parents and young women leaders in this effort. It also states that the bishop and his counselors regularly participate in young women meetings, services and activities.” Then she continues, “We are grateful for bishops who take the time to visit young women classes and who provide opportunities for young women to be more than spectators of the work.”

  00:25:16 “Thank you for making sure your young women are valued participants in meeting the needs of ward members. These opportunities to serve in meaningful ways, bless them much more than activities in which they are just entertained.” That important role of the young women, I think sometimes they feel like they’re getting kind of skirted to the side or they’re supposed to be doing some unimportant activity while the young men pass the sacrament or the young men take the sacrament to somebody who is sick.

  00:25:40 But these young women have incredible capacity. They have been given, as you said, John, priesthood power and authority to fulfill these callings. There’s a lot more that these young women could be asked to do. They want to serve. They have the capacity to do so. She says in here, “Make sure that every young woman knows that she is needed. Each person has something important to contribute and has unique talents and abilities that help move this important work along.”

  00:26:05 Remember young women and young men, and for me I would say that’s really focused on helping those young women fulfill the measures, their capacity at this age. They’re ready to go. I think about these young adults, the capacity of these young adults, sometimes it blows my mind. I’ve had young adults in my classes that have called and said, “How can I help so-and-so in class. I want to invite them to church.” They follow up with me as a teacher.

  00:26:26 They have come home, some of them from their missions and they are just on fire and they want more capacity. They want more to be asked of them. They want to continue to serve the Lord. They want to save souls. Regardless of whether they serve a full-time mission or if they’re just young adults, we may be older to have more experience. But boy, do they have energy and boy, do they have experience and they also want to hit the ground running.

  00:26:46 I think about so many of the young women’s presidents and relief society presidents that I know that are in their 20s. I think of these great primary leaders and so much that these young adults and youth are willing and able to give to the church. I would reiterate what Paul says, “Let no man despise thy youth.” For any youth that are listening, let no man despise thy youth. You are incredible. You can teach the gospel. You’ve been given special responsibilities. You’re unique to this generation and we need your help. Please use the power and authority that you’ve been given in this work especially that comes to you through keeping your covenants.

Hank Smith: 00:27:19 Beautiful. Barb, John, it seems that the end of 1 Timothy is taking care of the poor, to watch how you feel about riches, famous verse that we’ve already mentioned here for the love of money is the root of all evil. Before we finish with 1 Timothy, let’s take five minutes on the idea of your attitude towards money is a big deal in following the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:27:44 George Bailey said to that Angel Clarence that he came to help him and he said, “You don’t happen to have 8,000 bucks, do you?” Clarence said, “No. We don’t use money in heaven.” And George, “Well, it comes in pretty handy down here bub,” he says. The whole movie is an illustration of really it was the people and the friends that were most important and we can figure out the money part, but a lot of discussion about that verse, isn’t there?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:28:14 Oh, so much. As I’ve watched my own parents pass away, my husband’s parents pass away and other people that are just so dear to me, and I think about possessions that they had and even discussions that we have as children, it’s almost laughable. My parents passed away. There wasn’t a lot of monetary going on there as you can imagine, but you have 13 children that are trying to decide what to do with what’s left. What do we all care about?

  00:28:36 We all care about the letters and we care about the love and we care about the things that are relationship-based memories and that’s what we all want copies of. That’s what we all want to share with each other. That the reality is they have passed on and they took nothing with them except as they took their intelligence, they took the knowledge, they took those things that they have become, and when it really comes to it. I’m so grateful for.

  00:28:59 But the reality that money can be the root of all evil, but it also can be a great blessing. Again, it’s all about where the heart is. But in the end, the money is still behind. It’s still left behind. Eternal life is what matters. It’s this, “Oh, man of God. Flee these things. Follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith. Lay hold on eternal life.”

  00:29:20 Regardless of the money, the point, again, it’s not the money, it’s who we are serving. It’s disciples of Christ and that’s what this is. It’s never about the money. It’s just about who we are as individuals.

John Bytheway: 00:29:31 You mentioned Doctrine and Covenants. We can take our section 1:30, whatever principle of intelligence we attain to. 1 Timothy 6:7, for we brought nothing into this world and it is certain we can carry nothing out. There’s a reference to Job there. You can’t carry it, but there’s things that fit in your spirit and that’s what I like what the Doctrine and Covenants says. You get to keep your character, your intelligence, your relationships, and we don’t want to spend our lives climbing the ladder of success and discover it’s leaning against the wrong wall as somebody said.

  00:30:04 What can we carry with us? Which is a fun discussion. You can’t carry it, but there are things that you have become. As Elder Oaks might tell us that what have you become? You get to keep that and that’s the focus.

Hank Smith: 00:30:16 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:30:16 In the temple, John, one of the covenants we make is we covenant to keep the law of consecration and we covenant to keep law of sacrifice. Again, in verse 10, it is not money that is the root of all evil. It is the love of money that is the root of all evil. That’s the important part. If we love anything more than God, it is the root of all evil. We build our house upon the rock of Jesus Christ. If it’s money, it’s sand. The sand is money. The sand is anything but Jesus Christ.

  00:30:44 To your point, we bring with us who we are and we are disciples. We are gods in the making. The love of anything besides God is the root of all evil. In this case, clearly there’s a need for talking about money. I would imagine that there are some issues that are going on. We’ve already talked about the wealth and some of the women and what they’re wearing. But maybe he’s getting offered different things. I don’t know exactly what that is there. But it’s not money that’s the problem. It’s the love of it. That’s the problem.

John Bytheway: 00:31:07 You read the rest of the verse and it says that some coveted after and then erred from the faith, and so then you could see, “Ooh, look at the problems that come if that becomes more important than the other things,” like you just said.

Hank Smith: 00:31:20 Yeah. Verse 9 says, if you’re going to seek after riches, you could easily fall into temptation and traps, hurtful lust and drown in destruction. What an interesting phrase, drown in destruction. Then Elder Oaks in 2015, I’m sure you both remember this, devoted an entire conference talk to the Parable of the Sower. He talked about in that parable, the Savior talks about the deceitfulness of riches.

  00:31:49 This is what Elder Oaks said, “Wherever we are in our spiritual journey, whatever our state of conversion, we are all tempted by this. When attitudes or priorities are fixed on the acquisition, use or possession of property, we call that materialism. So much has been said and written about materialism that little needs to be added here. Those who believe in what is called the theology of prosperity are suffering from the deceitfulness of riches. The possession of wealth or significant income is not a mark of heavenly favor and their absence is not evidence of heavenly disfavor.”

  00:32:24 “When Jesus told a faithful follower that he could inherit eternal life if he would only give all he had to the poor, he was not identifying an evil in the possession of riches but an evil in that follower’s attitude toward them. As we’re all aware, Jesus praised the good Samaritan who used the same coinage to serve his fellow men that Judas used to betray his Savior. The root of all evil is not money but the love of money.”

  00:32:51 “The Book of Mormon tells of a time when the church of God began to fail in its progress because the people of the church began to set their hearts upon riches and the vain things of the world. Whoever has an abundance of material things is in jeopardy of being spiritually sedated by riches and other things of the world.” Excellent, spiritually sedated by riches.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:33:15 That’s good.

Hank Smith: 00:33:17 Barb, this has just been a fantastic day. We’ve talked a little bit about 2 Timothy. Is there anything else in there or Titus or Philemon that you think our listeners could benefit from?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:33:28 One of my all-time favorite scriptures is 2 Timothy 1:7. It has been… and eight. These are foundational to how I also live my life. These are the verses, “For God hath not given us the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” Again, it’s Paul talking to a youth, Timothy, and he’s teaching and he’s mentoring and he’s training.

  00:33:50 As a younger individual, I especially remember being a young adult and reading this verse and thinking to myself, am I not moving forward because of fear in anything? Or does fear guide my decisions in anything? If it is, guiding my decisions, then it’s not from God. There may be other reasons that I may not be doing this. But if it’s fear that I need to back up and say, “This is not from God.” Love this.

  00:34:12 If I know if I’m not going to take a speaking assignment because of fear, that’s not the reason. If I’m not going to get married because of fear, that’s not the reason. If I don’t take a job, it’s not the reason. If I’m not moving forward because of fear, then I need to start working on exercising my faith and increasing my faith. I love this. Then he continues, “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord nor of me his prisoner, but be thou partaker of the affliction of the gospel according to the power of God.”

  00:34:37 When I was a young adult, I don’t know if I was a young adult, let me think about this. When I was younger, I read this talk by President Hinckley and I did exactly what he said here because of the impact of what he said. Regarding these two verses, President Hinckley said the following, “I wish that every member of this church would put those words where he might see them every morning as he begins his day. They would give us the courage to speak up. They would give us the faith to try. They would strengthen our conviction of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe that more miracles would happen over the earth.”

  00:35:11 He’s speaking about these words and he’s saying, “Do not fear.” In my office at work, I have the quote, I have a little piece of a magnet that I have taped there and it’s on my desk at work. I see it when I go to work. In my office at home, I have a little poster that has it on there that I just created on my computer. God has not given me the spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.

  00:35:32 It’s there. I see it. If there’s any reason for fear, I just say, “You know what? Satan take a hike. I’m on God’s team. My power is through him and my covenant.” To me, that’s extremely important. I think a lot of people struggle as I have struggled in my life that we make decisions based on fear. Fear is not from God. God gives power.

  00:35:50 To the youth, I would say that to young adults, I would say that, and to all of us who may struggle with fear from time to time, which is probably all of us in some way. Remember that the power is of God. We bear testimony of him. There’s no reason to be afraid.

Hank Smith: 00:36:03 Absolutely wonderful.

John Bytheway: 00:36:04 I heard somebody say once that FEAR, F-E-A-R, is False Expectations Appearing Real. A little acronym for the word fear.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:36:15 That’s good.

John Bytheway: 00:36:15 False Expectations Appearing Real, but they’re not. The same idea. Don’t take counsel from your fears. I love the way you put it.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:36:22 I think it’s critical. When we look at this fear, we don’t just say, don’t be afraid. Because that’s not also not what he’s saying. He says, “God has not given us a spirit of fear, but of power and of love and of a sound mind.” But then he teaches us how to not be afraid, and that’s what I love here. Again, we’re talking about Paul is taking Timothy back to doctrine and Jesus Christ every time.

  00:36:43 He says, first of all, he talks about the testament of our Lord. He testifies who has saved us and called us with an holy calling. Not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Jesus Christ before the world began. Then he continues, “Why else should you not be afraid? It is made manifest by the appearing of our Savior, Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and hath brought life and immortality to the life, through the gospel, whereunto I am appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher of the Gentiles.”

  00:37:11 In other words, Christ is the one who gave me this calling, Timothy, and he’s the one who gave you your calling. There’s nothing to be afraid of. Then he continues, “For the things which cause I also suffer these things. Nevertheless, I am not ashamed for I know in whom I have believed and I am persuaded that he is able,” He meaning Christ, “Is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Holdfast, the form of sound words.”

  00:37:37 He’s back to doctrine, “Which thou hast heard of me in faith and love, which is in Christ Jesus.” Then he reminds him that he has the Holy Ghost with him and he talks about mercy and being refreshed and oft refreshed within himself. Then he says, “Holdfast the form sound words,” referring to doctrine, “Which thou hast heard of me in faith and love, which is in Jesus Christ.”

  00:37:59 Then verse 14, that good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost, which dwelleth in us. It’s not that he’s just not supposed to be afraid. He’s not just saying, You know what? Timothy grow up a little bit. He’s saying, Timothy, because of Jesus Christ, you have no reason to be afraid. Your calling has come from him. Your power comes from him. Satan may try to destroy you and take away his power. You don’t have to worry about it.

  00:38:26 You are appointed by Jesus Christ. He’s the Savior of the world. He has overcome death and everything bad. He’s the light and the life of the world. We know in whom we have trusted. You’re still young. You may not have the experience that I have, but you’ve got to trust me here. Do not be afraid. Take one step after the other and get on the move. Hit the ground running, Timothy.

  00:38:43 He’s not just dismissing his fear. He’s saying, let me help you have confidence. It’s Jesus Christ in who we have confidence in. It’s not that he has faith in himself. He has faith in Jesus Christ and faith overcomes fear. If we have faith in God and a love of God, we have no reason to fear as we’re taught.

John Bytheway: 00:39:00 Faith, not fear. Yep.

Hank Smith: 00:39:02 This letter becomes even more powerful when you realize Paul is, I think, he’s realizing, he’s coming to the end. Right out of the manual it says, 2 Timothy is to believe to be the last epistle Paul wrote, and it seems he knew his time on earth was short. How might Timothy have felt knowing that he might soon be without his trusted mentor? What did Paul say to encourage him?

  00:39:25 I’m looking at 2 Timothy 3. He says, “Timothy, continue thou in the things which thou hast learned.” That’s verse 14. You’ve learned from the scriptures since you were a child, 16 and 17. Scripture is given by inspiration of God. It will help you become thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Here Paul is kind of, I mean saying goodbye, saying, like you just said, “Don’t be fearful. Continue in the things which you have learned and you’re going to be okay. Keep yourself in the scriptures.”

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:39:58 It’s Mormon talking to Moroni. Come unto Christ and be perfected in him. It’s Moroni talking to us. Come unto Christ. It’s all these prophets and leaders as they’re giving their last word or last letter to people and just be firm in the faith. Oh, be wise. What can I say more? I love chapter 2 as well as he is talking to him. He’s talking about seeking godliness and shunning all of these bad things.

  00:40:17 Again, he is talking as a youth, but foundational to you being an effective instrument in God’s hands is as he says in verse 22, “Flee youthful lust, but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. Foolish and unlearned questions. Avoid knowing that they do gender strife.” I mean, avoid the things that cause contention. Avoid questions that are just pointless just for the argument’s sake.

  00:40:42 He’s helping him and he’s training him as a leader. I love in meekness instructing those that oppose themselves. Be meek, be teachable, be learnable. Understand that there are going to be people that maybe you could learn some things from as you continue on. Not just me, Timothy, but maybe your mom, maybe your grandma. You have more things to learn from them, maybe other people in your path.

  00:41:03 I also love in chapter 2, first of all, he talks about Christ again, “Thou therefore my son. Be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus and the things that thou hast heard of me among witnesses. The same commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. Timothy, you need to be in a position to learn from me. Learn from Jesus Christ so that you can teach others how to teach thou therefore, and your hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.”

  00:41:29 It’s all about his responsibility to teach the gospel of Christ. Then no man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life that he may please him with who has chosen him to be a soldier. If a man also strived for the masteries, yet he is not crowned except he strived lawfully. The husbandman, that laboreth must be first partaker of the fruits. Then consider what I say and the Lord give thee understanding.

  00:41:51 In other words, ponder what I’m teaching you here, Timothy. Consider it. Think about it. Take it to the Lord. Do more. It’s not just a quick reaction. Ponder these things in thy heart, just as Joseph Smith talks about and that President Nelson has asked us, as you consider, ponder the truth that you have been taught. Then I love verse 10, therefore I endure all these things for the elect sake, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

  00:42:17 Timothy, it’s going to be hard. Ponder upon the things, understand the doctrine, move forward with faith. Speaking of the soldier thing just came to my mind. When my mom passed away, I just had the hardest time. I just wept. I remember being at my father’s home and laying on the couch and it just tore me to pieces. I was teaching religion classes at BYU and I was supposed to just wake up the next morning and go teach a class. It was so hard.

  00:42:39 I remember my dad just looking at me and he said, “Barb, it’s okay to be like the good soldier and lay down for a while and cry, but then you’ve got to get up and fight, fight, fight.” Sometimes we lay down like the good soldier, but we have to get back up on our feet. We know in whom we have trusted. Get back to the work. Don’t let the world overcome us. Remember that Jesus Christ himself overcame the world. He resurrected. There’s hope in Christ and we can get up and finish our battle.

  00:43:01 But it’s okay to lay down and cry for a little while. It’s okay to be hurt. It’s okay to mourn and it’s actually, it’s a beautiful thing to mourn, but we need to continue on, not deny, move forward, be strong. Losing those we love and having difficult experiences and having others, older people, maybe blasphemous, whatever else, all these things are things that we can overcome and grow from if we will be meek and lowly of heart and trust and know in whom we have trusted.

Hank Smith: 00:43:26 Yeah. 2 Timothy 4:7, famous verse. I have fought a good fight. I have finished my course. I have kept the faith. Man, Paul. Paul gave his all.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:43:39 I know I’m harking back to this, but I am so convinced of the importance of what fight did he fight? What was the good fight? It’s back to who he was as an individual. He says in chapter 3, this know also, that in the last days, perilous times shall come. We’ve heard this so often. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.

  00:44:00 I mean, I feel like we’re talking about our days. It’s so obvious, without natural affection, truce breakers, false accusers, incontinent, fears, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high-minded lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God, having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof from such turn away. I hope we can see that how do we turn away from these things and how do we recognize them?

  00:44:21 Well, he teaches us this. We learn the doctrine of Christ. Then he says, “All scriptures given by inspiration.” Before he gives this chapter 4, he says, “For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine. But after their own lust, shall they heap themselves, teachers having itching ears, they shall turn away their ears from the truth and shall be turned into fables.”

  00:44:42 What has Paul done to keep the fight and the fight of good fight? He has kept the fight of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He’s kept the fight of keeping the doctrine pure, of living the life of Jesus Christ, of changing his life to be a disciple. He is fighting that fight to make sure that he is on the right ground in Christ. That’s what he’s trying to get Peter to do. He hasn’t fought a good fight because he’s lived a long life. He’s fought a good fight because he’s a disciple of Christ. He’s fought that good fight.

Hank Smith: 00:45:07 Fantastic.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:45:08 I’ll continue on that. He’s fought the good fight. I always love that he teaches the invitation. In a sense, he’s saying, “Timothy, you fight the good fight too.” But then he says in verse 8, and it’s always … there’s a blessing for this, henceforth, there is laid up for me, a crown of righteousness.” He knows that. He doesn’t have to guess. He’s not like he’s going into a class and he’s saying, “I don’t know how I did on this earth. Am I going to receive an A, B, C, or D in the next life? Am I going to be celestial, terrestrial, telestial?”

  00:45:33 Paul knows he has the confidence because he’s given his life to the Lord. Literally, he’s consecrated. He knows that a crown of righteousness will be his. That’s not pompous. That’s not prideful. He just knows that he has done what he can do. Then he says, “Which the Lord, the righteous judge shall give me at that day. Not to me only, but unto all them that also love his appearing, do thy diligence to come shortly unto me. Timothy, I have confidence in God. I have confidence in his resurrection in Jesus Christ. I am confident because I know in whom I have trusted that I will receive this crown of righteousness.”

  00:46:08 Timothy, so will you. Let’s help everybody because of the love of God. Receive this crown of righteousness. Be a teacher, be a leader, be a missionary. Let’s all have eternal life together.” That’s what verse 17, notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, strengthened me, that by me the preaching might be fully known and that all the gentiles might hear and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion. The Lord shall deliver me from every evil work and he will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom to whom be glory forever and ever.

  00:46:38 He knows that it’s not him. It’s all because of the Lord. The Lord has saved him. In verse 22, as he’s ending this off, he just says, “The Lord Jesus Christ, be with thy spirit. Grace be with you. Amen.” Paul knows the work of the Lord. He knows what the Lord can do. He knows that only through Christ can we be saved. He wants Timothy to get it. Likely, his last letter has everything to say, “Timothy, I believe, please believe, please teach these things.” Because even to his dying day, he wants to make sure that the gospel is preached forever.

  00:47:08 A true disciple of Christ loves people and he loves people so much that he wants the gospel taught to them. He’s using these individuals to help teach that gospel knowing that he’s passing on. In fact, I’ll tell you, when my mother passed away. One of the things that I thought was so fun is she was in a coma. A few days into her coma, she woke up just a couple days before she passed away and she said to me, “Barb, I need you to teach me how to teach better.”

  00:47:33 I just kind of laughed, I mean, this is my mom coming out of a coma, clearly about ready to pass away, and I just kind of laughed with her. I just said, “Mom, it’s so good to see you. You came out.” She just said, “Barb, there are people on the other side of the veil who need me, and when I get there and I see them, I want to hit the ground running.” She said, “I need you to teach me.”

  00:47:51 I sat with my mom for a few hours in her very short awakening from her coma, and we talked about how to better teach and influence people on the other side of the veil. It was one of the most sacred experiences in my life, and as my memory is, that was the last conversation I had with my mom, teaching how to teach on the other side of the veil, to one who had taught me most of everything that I knew.

  00:48:12 A mother who I never saw a speck of dust on her scriptures and a mother whose scriptures were full of markings and teachings and doctrines and principles just like Timothy’s mother and Timothy’s grandmother. She was one who does not despise my youth. She asked me questions and genuinely wanted to know how I could help her better teach people on the other side of the veil. It was so humbling and so exciting to have that moment with my mom.

  00:48:37 I asked her one as I was working on her obituary before she passed away, what do you want to be known for? She said, “I want to be known for one who was a seeker and liver of truth,” which I just thought that was so beautiful. That’s what Paul’s doing here, he is trying to help Timothy have a testimony of truth and live the truth. Frankly, it’s what he’s doing with Titus in this next part as well.

Hank Smith: 00:48:56 Let’s take a quick look at that, Barb. It seems that Titus is the leader of the church in Crete, that Paul gave him that assignment to lead the church in Crete. Crete is not an easy place to be a Christian, much like the other places that we’ve looked at that Paul is writing to. Is there anything in Titus that we should see? It’s very similar as I’ve read to Timothy saying, “These Christians need to be this light and they can make a big difference in the community that they’re in. If they deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and live soberly and godly, they can do great things.” Anything else?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:49:35 I think there’s so much here again. I’m probably a broken record because I just feel like this is such an important discussion. I just feel like it is a mentoring teaching opportunity. You see at the end of verse 2 as Paul is writing to Titus, unto the pure all things are pure, but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure, but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God, but in the works they deny him, being abominable and disobedient and unto every good work reprobate.

  00:50:02 He’s not trying to call people on things, but he’s trying to teach discernment to Timothy and it seems that he’s trying to help Timothy see those people who want to hear you will be pure and you’ll recognize their purity and they will want to believe. Those who do not want to believe, there are other things perhaps going on in their lives.

  00:50:18 They may be of a different nature in some things, but the obedient and those who want to know truth will want to know truth. They will come to you with a desire and they’ll recognize the truth when you teach it to them. I think that that’s what we see in chapter 2 as well. Speak thou the things which become sound doctrine. Again, we have in verse 1 doctrine, then we have in verse 7 and all things showing thyself a pattern of good works in doctrine, showing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity, sound speech that cannot be condemned.

  00:50:47 Verse 10, no purloining, but showing all good fidelity that they may adorn the doctrine of God, our Savior in all things. He is so clearly focusing on what is true. Because we’re seeing in these last days that we’re going to have wicked times and there are going to be people that are covetous and there are going to be false accusers and false teachers and he is sticking them so strongly.

  00:51:08 You must know the doctrine of Christ. You must teach it. You must live it. You must not be a hypocrite. You have to be sound in speech. Then he says, “Deny ungodliness and worldly lust, live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.” I just love that in verse 12 and then verse 13. Looking for that blessed hope and the glorious appearing of the great God, our Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us that he might redeem us from all iniquity and purity unto himself.

  00:51:34 A peculiar people zealous of good works. These things speak. Titus speak and tell people that we are meant to be peculiar. We’re meant to be zealous in good words. We’re not trying to be like the world be doctrinally sound. Then verse 15, these things speak and exhort and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.

  00:51:56 He’s being told and assuming he’s younger, don’t despise you, but do speak with authority, exhort people. Just as it says in section 121 of the Doctrine & Covenants, reprove betimes with sharpness when led by the Holy Ghost. Be a discerner of those things and correct people when needed. President Reese at BYU just recently talked about how when things are not doctrinally sound to mark them, mark the things that aren’t sound.

  00:52:19 In this case, make sure that you understand and know the doctrine of Jesus Christ and make sure you know what is not. Don’t be easily confused. Be careful that you’re not being swayed by every wind of doctrine. Helaman chapter 5, we understand Jesus Christ and we have that faith, but we’re not just easily swayed to believe so many are in our day and age.

  00:52:39 I was talking to my sister who was on an airplane with someone who was going to my home state. My sister asked him, “Why do you like going there so much?” He said, “Because I love the confusion that exists there. I can’t think of anything worse than to try to be in a state of confusion. He loved feeling confused. There are very few things in my life that I try to avoid more than that and clarify than confusion. I want truth. I want to know what is true and I want to live it. I don’t want to live in a state of confusion and I desperately don’t want to cause confusion.

  00:53:09 I think that we’re seeing a lot of confusion in these last days. Again, I think it’s fascinating in chapter 3 that Titus is also told to avoid foolish questions. That’s verse 9. Avoid foolish questions and genealogies and contentions and strivings about the law for they are unprofitable and vain.

  00:53:28 I remember as I was in my youth genuinely trying to come up with questions that would stump people or coming up with questions that may cause people to struggle. I wasn’t trying to hurt people’s souls. I just thought I was funny. I remember reading because I was in this state where I was trying to find testimony. It was that same time where I came upon ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

  00:53:50 I remember reading this and being kind of humbly and gently spanked by the Lord, like, Barb, are you trying to find truth or are you trying to be obnoxious? You’re ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth? You’re asking questions that are foolish. You’re trying to stump your teachers. What are you doing? Are you trying to build the faith or are you just trying to be funny? Or are you really a builder of people? What kind of questions are you asking of other people? More importantly, what kind of questions are you asking the Lord? Are you spending time coming up with really good questions in your prayers? Are you writing down your questions?

  00:54:22 As Elder Bednar says, he goes to the temple to find good questions to ask so that he can be answering them throughout his own personal studies throughout the rest of the week. I’ve learned a lot about avoiding foolish questions and avoiding foolish questions with God. When I pray in the name of Christ, I want to ask questions in the name of Christ too. I want to ask God the kind of questions Jesus Christ would want me to ask his father in his name.

  00:54:45 Learning to ask good questions is critical. He’s teaching that to Titus. Ask good questions. Be wise in your conversations. Be loving. Avoid contentions. As President Nelson says, be a peacemaker. Because all of these things, if we do wrong, really could destroy people’s testimonies. Those are not attributes of a good missionary or a good member of the church, but learn to ask questions that matter. Learn to be peaceful, learn to have conversations with people that will be uplifting, building and that will increase people’s faith. I think to Titus, yes, I think there are many things here and focus on that doctrine.

Hank Smith: 00:55:17 Yeah. Be zealous of good works, eager, enthusiastic about doing good things.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:55:24 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:55:25 This last letter to Philemon, however you want to say it, I think I’ve said that a few times today, we find out that he loves Jesus. He’s refreshed the hearts of many saints. He’s a church leader. Paul considers him to be a friend. But this is a bit of an awkward situation because he owned a slave. Onesimus had run away from Philemon and Paul is now sending him back to Philemon and he’s been saved.

  00:55:58 Onesimus is going to show up Philemon’s doorstep with this letter. It’s going to ask him to forgive him and then accept him as a brother and not a slave. A very specific situation that I don’t think we’ll ever find ourselves in. But is there anything we can take out of this?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:56:20 I think maybe a couple of thoughts have come to me. Just as you were explaining that, Hank. I think it’s interesting that Paul, in this case, in the other cases, he’s writing a letter and introducing himself and then talking about how, in this case, Timothy and Titus were both his sons and he talks about who they are in the relationship. In this case, instead he says, “Paul, a prisoner of Jesus Christ.”

  00:56:40 He’s putting himself in a position of being a servant or a prisoner or one who has been captured too. He knows what it’s like to be captured. He knows what it’s like to be a servant of another person. It reminds me of Joseph Smith in Liberty Jail and he is talking about being in Liberty Jail.

  00:56:58 That process of being in Liberty Jail, the Lord teaches all of us how important it is that when an individual is given authority that they do not usurp the authority and use it against someone else. It’s interesting that Paul puts himself in a position as a prisoner. Joseph Smith is in a position of being in prison. In these cases, Joseph Smith, Paul and others are learning the importance of changing and becoming a brother and being able to repent and recognizing that there is a higher power.

  00:57:27 I think that Jesus Christ often teaches us who he is and how we can better treat other people when we are in positions of being in a sense enslaved. Whether it was in prison or as a servant, Paul has empathy here. Jesus Christ had empathy when he’s teaching to Joseph Smith in that sacred, the holy jail temple. Paul just, to me, it seems like he’s in that very first verse, he’s recognizing he was also a prisoner. He was also a servant or in some ways confined to somebody else’s desires and wills.

Hank Smith: 00:58:00 Yeah. It’s beautiful. Paul seems to act as almost a savior type role here when he says, “I’m sending him to you,” verse 16, “Not as a servant, but a beloved brother.” He says, “Receive him like you would receive me. If he has wronged thee or owe with thee, put that on my account.” There’s a mediator type role that Paul is taking on that can teach us a little bit about the Savior.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:58:30 It’s kind of the parable of the Good Samaritan.

Hank Smith: 00:58:32 Yeah.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 00:58:32 Puts him on his own donkey. They go down there and he gives to the keeper. Keep tabs on this. I’ll pay for everything. I’ll make sure he’s okay. To your point, that is very symbolic of Christ and his Atonement and his paying for us. The grace that he offers and the salvation that he offers through his Atonement for us, it has that feel, and that’s verse 8. Wherefore though I might be much bold in Christ to enjoin thee that that which is convenient yet for the love’s sake, I’d rather beseech thee, being such and one as Paul, the aged and now also a prisoner of Jesus Christ.

  00:59:03 He’s tying that into being a prisoner of Christ and that kind of relationship of all of us needing Christ’s Atonement. All of us are sinners per se. All of us are captured. All of us are in prison in some way. All of us need Jesus Christ. It’s a great lesson on we all are in a sense, brothers and sisters in Christ, and all of us are desperate for him, but I do love verse 19, I will repay it.

Hank Smith: 00:59:29 Yeah. Barb, I love that insight as he introduces himself as a prisoner or a slave of Jesus Christ and trying to get into the heart of Philemon that we are all servants of Christ, so we are all brothers.

John Bytheway: 00:59:45 That’s what I thought of, too, is it’s like King Benjamin, are we not all beggars? We are all in that same position where we are asking for salvation. I just like the very short synopsis at the beginning. The gospel changes a servant into a brother. One of probably the shortest synopses in all of the standard works, maybe.

Hank Smith: 01:00:07 Yeah. That’s fantastic. I didn’t even see that, John. Barb, we have a lot of listeners who are listening. They want to live better lives. They want to have better relationships with their families and friends. What do you hope they get out of our time together today, 1 and 2 Timothy, Titus, Philemon?

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:00:30 In Titus 3:7, it says, “Being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” I think what I would hope that everyone has as a result of this discussion and in their own personal scripture study, frankly, is an increased hope and eternal life through Jesus Christ, that we are heirs with him that Christ does not expect perfection.

  01:00:53 But as President Nelson says, he does love effort and that we can all stretch a little bit more. As President Kimball says that sometimes we need to get on our tippy toes to receive revelation. But that we succeed because of Jesus Christ and we are who we are because of Jesus Christ, and that we all have a responsibility and, frankly, an opportunity to help each other on the path that we can be both mentored and be mentors of other people on this path, but for what purpose and the purpose is to become heirs with Christ.

  01:01:27 I love that Christ, this is the perfect example, surprise, surprise, Christ wants us to be heirs with Him. As we continue this path, we understand Christ’s teachings. We know who he is. We will receive, as it says in section 84, all that God has heirs of Jesus Christ. He is the most selfless, the most gracious, the most charitable being, that being Jesus Christ. If we continue on this path, we will also be able to share the heir of joy or become heirs of joy and eternal happiness now and in the next life.

  01:02:00 That would be my thing, is we find joy and hope in Jesus Christ and will we receive all that he has, which for me is eternal life, all the joy, all the beauty, all the love that our Savior can make possible because of him.

Hank Smith: 01:02:14 Fantastic. Fear can dissipate with that faith in the Lord.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:02:18 It can.

Hank Smith: 01:02:19 Barb, this has been just a fantastic day. I hope we’ve gotten closer to the heart of what Paul was hoping for in writing these letters and feeling mentored like Timothy and Titus.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:02:31 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:02:32 Feeling buoyed up by this amazing church leader.

Dr. Barbara Gardner: 01:02:35 Yep. We need each other. I need you guys. Thanks for your great examples and your teachings and all that you do and are wonderful examples to so many of us.

Hank Smith: 01:02:44 We are very blessed to have you today. I’m sure all our listeners feel the same way. We want to thank Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. We always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more of the New Testament to cover on followHIM.

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President Russell M. Nelson: 01:03:47 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.