John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Professor Dale Sturm, 1 and 2 Thessalonians. I feel like sometimes it’s pretty easy to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sitting in the chapel, but then we got to go to work and then we’re out on the freeway and then we’re out and-

Hank Smith: 00:19 Facing, difficulty, facing opposition.

John Bytheway: 00:22 Keep coming back because that’s where we get our strength.

Professor Dale Sturm: 00:25 Yeah. Elder Maxwell would quote this idea that the cross comes before the crown and tomorrow is a Monday morning that, with all of the glories of the gospel, we also have to deal with the fact that tomorrow’s Monday and we got to be faithful tomorrow in the ordinary things, in the persistence of regular stuff. It’s easy to be a faithful Latter-day Saint sitting in the chapel hearing a wonderful talk or conference time, hearing the soaring language of an apostle, but tomorrow’s a Monday morning and we got to go to work and we got to deal with neighbors and traffic. And then sometimes the affliction of Christianity is just found in the ordinariness of the day to day that it just keeps coming, the relentless regularity of life.

Hank Smith: 01:10 Yeah, the relentless regularity. I like that. It reminds me of chapter three, verse 12, “The Lord make you to increase and abound in love one toward another and toward all men.” That sounds like a day-to-day useful verse. Dale, let’s keep going here. What else does Paul have to say in this first letter?

Professor Dale Sturm: 01:28 Chapter four is where we do get some doctrinal things. So having noted that, “You are in the covenant Thessalonians and we love you. You’re an example to everyone. You’re doing great.” He now says, “But I want to invite you to even be better, to continue on this path. Don’t just sit where you are.” So, in verse one, “Furthermore than we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that is as you have received of us how you ought to walk and to please God, so you would abound more and more.” This is the endure to the end part, but not just in place. This is an invitation to growth.

  02:08 So he introduces a very significant doctrinal idea, verse three, “For this is the will of God, even your sanctification,” and in fact, in the next three or four verses, he’s going to use that word repeatedly. “We’re inviting you to pursue sanctification.” Verse four, “Every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor.” Verse seven, “God has not called us unto uncleanliness but unto holiness,” and the Greek word is hagiamos. It’s the same word that was used in three and four for sanctification. Across these few verses, Paul is saying, “You’re doing great, but we need to invite you to pursue sanctification.” This is an interesting idea that we come to Christ, we receive the ordinances, we enter into the covenant and thereby we are justified. And Paul teaches this.

  03:01 Probably, the Book of Mormon is the only place that’s taught better than Paul teaching it that our justification is where we’re forgiven, we’re declared clean, where the slate is wiped clean, where we’re put back at the zero sin line, that we’re relabeled as righteous, even though we aren’t. But sanctification is beyond that. Sanctification is where we not only get forgiven for when we didn’t do as we knew we ought to, it’s where we’re enabled to actually live like Christ, not just get forgiven for when I wasn’t like Christ, that that’s what Paul’s inviting them to. There’s a couple of definitions in the guide to the scriptures that I really love that they’re really useful.

  03:46 The definition of justification in the guide to the scriptures is this, “To be pardoned from punishment for sin and declared guiltless. A person is justified by the Savior’s grace through faith in Him.” We come to Christ and He covers us. He forgives the transgression. He relabels us. He calls us clean, and if He calls us clean, we’re clean. And of course, we know, “I’m not righteous, I’m a mess, but because I’ve come to Christ, He’s reclassifying me. The label He puts on me now is righteous.” That’s justification, but here’s the definition for sanctification, still guide to the scriptures, sanctification. The process of becoming free from sin, pure, clean, holy through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

  04:35 Now the language is similar and sometimes we imagine becoming free from sin means getting forgiven, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. That’s the justification part. This is where I’m freed from committing sins, not just freed from the consequences of the sins I have committed, that the sanctification process helps me become increasingly like Jesus. Again, not just forgiven for when I wasn’t, although that’s always available. And I think that’s what Paul is inviting them. Remember Elder Maxwell used to talk about it as if it were an adventure to come out of the foothills and go into the high mountains of seeking to be like Christ, that this is real adventure if you’re going to strive to become like Christ. That’s what Paul’s inviting them to do, “Know how to possess this vessel in sanctification and in honor.”

  05:27 He talks about behavior. Even sexual sin is one of the things he notes here, but also intent that we got to develop the way we think and what our intents and our motives are. All of that’s part of sanctification. So, there’s an invitation here for them to step up into the next great challenge of our path and mortality, not just come to Christ but allow Christ to work in us. You remember Elder Bednar talks about this two-pronged effect of the Atonement of Christ, the justification, the forgiveness part, but also the sanctifying part and he does it repeatedly. This is Elder Bednar from way back in October 2007. “It’s the Atonement of Jesus Christ that provides both a cleansing and redeeming power that helps us to overcome sin and a sanctifying and strengthening power that helps us to become better than we ever could by relying only upon our own strength.” That’s the talk where he said the Atonement is for the sinner and the saint, that it forgives us, but it also helps us to be better than we ever could. It seems to be that that’s Paul’s invitation. That’s the next thing to the Thessalonians, “Seek sanctification.”

Hank Smith: 06:42 I don’t remember who taught me this. Maybe it was last year, John, in the Old Testament, but someone put it together for me of, “Clean hands and a pure heart.”

John Bytheway: 06:51 That’s exactly what I was thinking of.

Hank Smith: 06:54 Really?

John Bytheway: 06:54 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 06:55 Okay, so I was on the right track, that justification is those clean hands that I’m cleansed and then sanctification is my heart has changed. Does that sound right?

John Bytheway: 07:06 Yeah, and can I tell you my favorite analogy of that is Elder Oaks.

Hank Smith: 07:11 I had the same thing.

John Bytheway: 07:13 About a tree. Do you remember the one?

Hank Smith: 07:15 Yeah, I have it right in front of me. John, we have been doing this too long. The two insights we both had were the exact same thing. Here’s what you were thinking of. This is from a talk called Sin and Suffering, BYU Devotional. Elder Oaks talks about what Dale has been teaching us here. He says, “We often think of the results of repentance as simply cleansing us from sin, but that is an incomplete view of the matter. A person who sins is like a tree that bends easily in the wind. On a windy and rainy day, the tree bends so deeply against the ground that the leaves become soiled with mud like sin. If we only focus on cleaning the leaves, the weakness in the tree that allowed it to bend and soil its leaves may remain. Merely cleaning the leaves does not strengthen the tree. Similarly, a person who is merely sorry to be soiled by sin will sin again in the next high wind. The susceptibility to repetition continues until the tree has been strengthened and that’s the sanctification part.”

  08:17 He goes on to talk about King Benjamin and Alma both speaking of a mighty change of heart. Is that what you’re thinking of John?

John Bytheway: 08:24 Yeah, that’s exactly the one. In fact, I went on a search to find a weeping willow. I was trying to find a tree that might fit that analogy, something where the leaves would actually get muddy and then you could hose them off, but next storm you’re going to be doing the same thing. So, the sanctification part is losing desire for sin because we talk about a mighty change of heart, but sometimes people get discouraged because they want it to be an instant change of heart and I don’t think it’s instant. Let me read something from teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith. This is on page 51. He said, “The nearer a man approaches perfection, the clearer are his views,” and I love this part, “the greater his enjoyments until he has overcome the evils of his life and lost every desire for sin and like the ancients arrives at a point of faith where he’s wrapped in the power and glory of his Maker and is caught up to dwell with him. But we consider this is a station to which no man ever arrived in the moment.”

  09:23 So it’s not an instant change of heart and the process of sanctification is that slowly losing desire for sin. As Dale said, “Justification, we’re cleansed. Now we’re trying to get to the point where we’re losing desire to sin,” and it doesn’t happen in a moment just like a tree isn’t strengthened in a moment. It’s got to grow.

Professor Dale Sturm: 09:46 Take a bit. It’s always like two steps forward, one step back or two steps forward, three steps back, but that we persist, that we continue. So, Paul says in 4:7, “For God has not called us unto uncleanliness but unto holiness,” as if he were saying, “Your arrival into the Gospel Covenant is not just about you getting declared clean. It’s about changing you. It’s about you actually turning into something that you’re not yet.” It’s even hard to imagine how you could possibly get there, but we’re going to abound more and more of this call to sanctification.

John Bytheway: 10:25 We’ve come to Christ in whatever condition we’re in as a mess perhaps, but now we’re striving to become like Christ. Lifelong process. We got to be patient with ourselves and with each other over that process. We’re all messed up here along the covenant path-

Professor Dale Sturm: 10:45 But don’t you think that acknowledging that truth, exactly how you just said it, John, makes it much easier to not judge anybody, that anytime the natural man in me feels to pass judgment, I can quickly remind myself that, “You’re a mess yourself. You got your own stuff and the Lord’s helping you along the way just like he’s helping them along. We’re all in this together. The process is one that we share and we really need to encourage one another in it, abound in love one to another”?

John Bytheway: 11:13 What was President Uchtdorf’s talk?

Professor Dale Sturm: 11:16 The bumper sticker?

John Bytheway: 11:17 Yeah, the bumper sticker, “Don’t judge me because I sin differently than you do.”

Hank Smith: 11:23 So that verse seven becomes pretty crucial because you would think God has called us to uncleanness, to clean us up, but he’s saying no, there’s more than that. It’s holiness he wants. Yes, you can be justified and declared clean, but man, we want to become something even more.

John Bytheway: 11:42 We want to be new creatures. That’s a very Paul way to say it and, Hank, you read a few weeks ago, I think, the C.S. Lewis thing about he’s not just coming in to do a little bit of remodeling, but he’s going to take out a couple of wings and add a new patio and all sorts of stuff, right?

Hank Smith: 11:58 Yeah, it’s not a little cottage he wants. He wants a mansion.

Professor Dale Sturm: 12:01 It can be very surprising what he puts us through in order to change us because he has a plan that sometimes we don’t see and becoming like him is a stretch. It’s going to stretch us. Just to finish out chapter four, he does a little more encouraging, so he switches topics, verse 13. This might be something that maybe Timothy brought back to him that they’re saying this in Thessalonica, they’re concerned about this. And so, Paul seems to address a specific thing. Verse 13, “I would not have you be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, those that have already died, that you sorrow not even as others which have no hope. Don’t be like the world who’s awash in sorrow at the loss of loved ones.” 14, “For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,” this thing where I’ve been preaching to you and you have a witness of, you know that it’s true, Jesus died and rose again. If you believe that “even so them also, which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.”

  13:02 This is Paul encouraging them by reminding them of the remarkable hope that’s in the doctrine of the resurrection. It’s just such a practical hope to know that those that we’ve loved will be with us again and we’ll be together with them in the Lord. And here Paul even connects it to the coming of Christ, which they probably thought was going to happen sooner rather than later. My sense is that the early Christian expectation, so it’s not going to be that far away.

John Bytheway: 13:35 Just around the corner, right?

Hank Smith: 13:36 Yeah.

Professor Dale Sturm: 13:37 Yeah, don’t you imagine that if John knew it was going to be 2000 years, he would’ve asked for something different. They think-

John Bytheway: 13:46 That’s really good.

Professor Dale Sturm: 13:49 They thought it was going to happen pretty quick. So, Paul is noting, “When He comes, our beloved dead are going to rise with Him and we’ll be caught up to meet them.” I don’t think this is a really technical exposition on the Resurrection. Rather it’s a reminding of them of the doctrine of resurrection in order to give them hope, help them to be cheered in their hearts, that remember one of the glories of your belief in the Gospel of Jesus Christ is you get to have hope of a resurrection, a hope that we’ll be with our loved ones. Kind of the tone of the whole … it’s still there. Even in a doctrinal place, Paul is using it as encouragement.

John Bytheway: 14:27 This idea in verse 17, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air”. In the Religion 211, 212 in the New Testament Student Manual, the Institute Manual, which everybody has on their phone, whether they know it or not, Library, Adults, Young Adults, Institute Manuals, you can read this, the Joseph Smith Translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 reads, “Then they who are alive shall be caught up together into the clouds with them who remain to meet the Lord in the air and so shall we be ever with the Lord.” “Many Christians,” the manual continues, “use the word rapture from a Latin term, meaning caught up, when referring to the time, when the righteous will be caught up to meet the Savior at His coming.”

  15:19 Have you heard of those movies called Left Behind? There’s these different ideas that our Christian friends have about the Rapture and I remember I ran into one of our colleagues, Brother Tom Wayment, and I said, “What’s our feeling about the Rapture?” And he in one sentence blessed my life. He said, “We believe in a post-tribulation Rapture. They believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture.” And it’s like, “Oh, so we’re going to be here for all the tribulation stuff. We’re going to go through that before this caught up to meet him in the air thing.” Does that sound right to you, Dale?

Professor Dale Sturm: 15:59 Yes. Before the thousand-year party, we’re going to have to go through some challenging things. I was driving on the freeway and there was a van in front of me that had a bumper sticker that said, “In case of Rapture, this car will be unmanned,” and I thought, “Oh, that’s useful. Thank you for the warning.” In some Christianity that it could happen at any minute and others won’t know that it’s happened, that life will go on. That’s clearly not what the scriptures teach, particularly the scriptures of the Restoration, that we’re all going to know what’s going on.

John Bytheway: 16:35 Right.

Professor Dale Sturm: 16:35 It will be a dramatic undeniable event …

John Bytheway: 16:38 Right.

Professor Dale Sturm: 16:39 An event that for some will be frightening, but just imagine the joy of the coming of the Lord coupled with the resurrection of grandma and grandpa and mom and dad and maybe a lost child and what a moment of encouragement to stay true for, so you can be there for that day.

John Bytheway: 16:58 That’s coming in 2 Thessalonians, more about the Second Coming. Like you said, he’s talking about resurrection here, but he hooks it to when the Lord comes and we’ll be caught up in the air to meet Him. And I’ve just had a lot of students that have asked about that Rapture thing because that’s talked about a lot in some circles. In one of those movies, both of the pilots disappear from the front end of a 757 and that could be alarming. We’re going to be here through those tribulations, which is nice to know because, in a way, it builds our testimony to see the trials and the persecution and to be able to go, Yup, this is what was supposed to happen. Yup, we’re going to be here for it, but all this means there’s something wonderful coming.

Professor Dale Sturm: 17:46 And then Paul’s final words there, “Wherefore, comfort one another with these words.” When someone’s heartbroken about loss, remind them of the Resurrection. We can encourage one another by teaching doctrine.

John Bytheway: 18:00 Isn’t that a great last phrase? That’s General Conference. That’s the scriptures, “Comfort one another with these words.” That’s really good. Something really cool about the word comfort. I looked up the etymology, not to be confused with entomology, which is the study of insects, but I looked up the etymology of the word comfort and it means, I love this, together strong. The Latin com like companion and fort, fortis, like a fort. The comforter means together strong.

Hank Smith: 18:34 It seems that Joseph Smith read a lot of Paul because you see it showing up in everything that he taught. At a funeral, he said, “We mourn the loss, but we do not mourn as those without hope.” Right there, that phrase 1 Thessalonians 4, “You sorrow not even as others which have no hope.” We still sorrow, but the sorrow is mitigated somewhat by our knowledge. Don’t you both think that? John, I know you’ve lost your parents, Dale, I’m sure you’ve lost people close to you, that there is something mitigating about the doctrines of the Gospel? President Nelson once said, “Our limited perspective would be enlarged if we could witness the reunion on the other side of the veil, when the doors of death open to those returning home.”

  19:25 Joseph Smith taught this is at the King Follett funeral, “Our relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season. Their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment as it were. And they now exist in a place where they converse together, the same as we do on Earth. The expectation, ” he says, “of seeing my friends in the morning of the resurrection cheers my soul and makes me bear up against the evils of life.” And if you guys don’t mind one more, John Taylor, “While we are mourning the loss of our friends, others are rejoicing to meet them behind the veil.” We could go on and on about these doctrines that mitigate the sorrow.

John Bytheway: 20:06 Hank, I’ve always loved that idea, “We shall have them again.” The gospel gives us an anticipation that is so wonderful. I have a picture of my mom sitting right here on my desk that we lost in December of 2021 and there’s just this expectation. We know we’ll have them again and it’s almost a knowledge that, “Oh yeah, they’re there,” that they’re probably watching and facepalming sometimes, but there’s an anticipation that is really something to look forward to. I’m glad you mentioned that, Hank, and you’ve lost people too, I know.

Hank Smith: 20:41 Yeah. And it’s not that we don’t sorrow. I don’t want to-

John Bytheway: 20:44 We’re supposed to sorrow. We’re going to mourn.

Hank Smith: 20:46 Yeah. What do you think about that? Have you found that to be true in your life?

Professor Dale Sturm: 20:50 Yeah, absolutely. I love what you just shared, Hank, and it reminds me that sometimes we take comfort from knowing that we will see them again. Both of my parents are gone, all of my grandparents are gone. The Gospel doctrine that we will see them again is very comforting, but that reminder that they’re having a reunion with those that they lost and for years of their life felt that hole in their heart. They knew the truth and had hope in the truth, but there was still a hole. And then when they pass over, the hole is filled and my mom got to be with her dad again who she missed so desperately in the last 20 years of her life. And what an encouraging doctrine.

Hank Smith: 21:33 I think there’s something beautiful there about the reunions that happen on the other side and maybe Paul is saying that’s why we do not mourn as those which have no hope.

John Bytheway: 21:43 So what have we got in chapter five that we should notice?

Professor Dale Sturm: 21:46 First of all, let’s note that Paul still seems to be responding to something that has been raised by the Thessalonians. Again, we can only imagine that it’s something that Timothy brought back, so he says, “But of the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I write unto you.” I’m not going to engage in a lengthy discourse about the signs of the Second Coming. Why? “For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” We’re not going to try and pinpoint it. I’m not going to try and give you any sort of formula to figure out. The thing you got to know is that it’s going to happen, so we have an expectation, but in terms of nailing it down, that’s a fruitless exercise. Instead, just prepare for it and then it also takes a little shot at the Roman worldview and one that may have made non-Christians in Thessalonica concerned about the Christians.

  22:47 This is verse three, “For when they,” we don’t know who they is, “when they shall say peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child.” But that phrase, peace and safety, that was the Roman motto of the Pax Romana, of the Roman peace. This is the emperor saying, “I have given peace and safe … You live in a time and a place of peace and safety.” The Thessalonians, particularly as they sit astride the great Via Egnatia, this speedway that was both comfortable to travel and safe to travel on, “I’ve provided peace and safety.” Paul’s purposely, I think, because you don’t see this language anywhere else in Paul, he doesn’t refer to peace and safety anywhere else. I think he’s quoting the Roman establishment and noting that, “You live in a time when they claim there’s peace and safety. This is exactly the time when we need to be watching.”

  23:45 It’s not a conversation about the signs as much as, “It is going to happen and you’ve got to pay attention.” Well, the world treats it as silly, note this from President Oaks, “Four matters are indisputable to Latter-day Saints.” This is from April Conference 2004, “Four indisputable matters for latter days. One, the Savior will return to the Earth in power and great glory to reign personally during a millennium of righteousness and peace. This is going to happen. It is certain. Jesus Christ is personally coming back to the Earth. It’s not a figure of speech, it’s not metaphor. It’s certainly not hyperbole. He is coming back. Number two, at the time of His coming, there’ll be a destruction of the wicked and a resurrection of the righteous. There will be judgment. Three, no one knows the time of His coming.”

  24:35 And he leaves that in that stark simplicity. No elaboration, just an apostolic assertion, “Nobody knows when it’s going to happen,” which should ring in our ears the next conversation where somebody’s trying to pinpoint it for us or some group that believes they’ve got it pinpointed. “And then finally, the faithful are taught to study the signs of it and to be prepared for it.” I think that’s what Paul’s getting at here, we’re not going to waste a lot of time on the signs, but He is coming back and you got to get ready for it. You got to prepare for His return. Verse six, “Therefore, let us not sleep as do others, but let us watch and be sober.”

Hank Smith: 25:14 I think that was the same talk where Elder Oaks said something like, “A 72-hour kit of temporal supplies is good, but a 24-hour kit of spiritual preparation is more enduring.”

John Bytheway: 25:25 That’s awesome. I have a theory about this I want to run by you guys because I think there’s two metaphors here. One of them is the thief in the night, but the other is a woman in travail in verse three. And I feel like, for the wicked, it comes as a thief in the night. I noticed footnote 2B takes you to section 106, verse four where it says, “And again, verily I say unto you, the coming of the Lord draweth nigh and it overtaketh the world as a thief in the night.” But what if for us who are studying the signs of the times, it’s more like a woman in travail. She has a pretty good idea of when she’s going to go into labor, of how long it’s been, and if we know what the signs are, it won’t overcome us as a thief in the night. It will be more like, “Yup, that was supposed to happen. Yup, that’s supposed to happen.” It’s more like a woman in travail.

Professor Dale Sturm: 26:19 Yeah, I like that. I love that. I like that a lot. Particularly because the woman in travail knows it’s going to happen. It is inevitable. There’s no, “Maybe it’s not going to happen.” It is going to happen. Wisdom requires that you prepare. You can’t just ignore it. It is going to happen.

John Bytheway: 26:37 Yeah, I think he’s telling us, well, but you’re the children of light. It won’t overcome you because you are the children of light, in verse five, “so let us not sleep, but let’s watch for the signs,” and that’s the woman in travail thing. So that’s just my thought.

Professor Dale Sturm: 26:53 But you’ve got to prepare like the expectant woman. So, verse eight, “Let us who are of the day” that is we have knowledge, we can see, we have clarity on this. We’ll be sober. Let’s put on the breastplate of faith. By the way, clearly the first time he starts to trot out this analogy that he’s going to …

John Bytheway: 27:11 Ephesians-

Professor Dale Sturm: 27:11 … develop in Ephesians. Yeah. Putting on the breastplate of faith and love and for a helmet, the hope of salvation, the fact that we don’t know exactly when it’s going to come is not an excuse to do nothing. And as he finishes this, he does hit a few miscellaneous things, some counsel that he gives and all of it is memorable, but extremely well phrased, little great bumper stickers, things that you could cross stitch onto pillows. But there’s one other idea that I think is very rich and applicable to the church in all ages. In verse 11, he says, “Wherefore comfort yourselves together,” which with what John shared about the etymology of comfort, that’s maybe a more significant phrase than I’d realized, “and edify one another, even as you also.” So, to edify is to build up, of course, and then this, “And we beseech you, brethren, to know them, which labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you and to esteem them very highly in love for their work’s sake and be at peace among yourself.”

  28:17 You have local leaders, people who aren’t the apostles, that they’re regular people and you live among them, esteem them and love them and be kind to them. In a lay church where we serve one another, it can be easy to be harsh or hard on those who are leading from time to time and I think this is Paul saying, Cut them a break. Those people who are presiding over you, they’re doing it because they were asked to. Maybe sometime it’ll be you who’s asked to. But esteem them and be kind to them. Reminds me of something Elder Christofferson taught in that wonderful talk October 2015, Why the Church? Just a remarkable talk. He notes this, “In the church, we not only learn divine doctrine, we also experience its application.”

  29:11 So the church is a classroom, but it’s also a lab where you got to do the experiments in real time. “As the body of Christ, the members of the church minister to one another in the reality of day-to-day life. All of us are imperfect. We may offend and be offended.” And I love the gentleness of this next sentence, “We often test one another with our personal idiosyncrasies.” Do you love how gently he puts that? In other words, yeah, there’s a lot of weirdos among us. We’re all weird and my weirdness tests you.

Hank Smith: 29:44 We get on each other’s nerves a little bit. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 29:47 Yeah, and I think he went off script there and then he said, “President Packer called them idiot-syncrasies.” Do you remember that?

Professor Dale Sturm: 29:55 Oh yes, yes. “This religion is not concerned only with self,” he says, “rather we are all called to serve. We are the eyes, hands, head, feet, and other members of the body of Christ,” referring to another Pauline note. “And even those members would seem more feeble are necessary.” Just a reminder I think from a couple of apostles, from Paul and from Elder Christofferson, this is also part of how this works, that we got to love and esteem one another even when we know each other pretty well and we challenge one another with our idiosyncrasies.

John Bytheway: 30:35 Idiot-syncrasies, right?

Professor Dale Sturm: 30:37 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 30:38 I remember Elder Holland asking about our children. He says, “Do your children know that you love and sustain local and general leaders, imperfect as they are for their willingness to accept a calling they did not seek in order to preserve a standard of righteousness they did not create?”

John Bytheway: 30:57 So good.

Professor Dale Sturm: 30:58 Remarkable.

Hank Smith: 30:58 Give your local leaders a break. I like that, Dale. Maybe did you just have to say that sometimes as a mission leader too, give your mission leaders a break, right? We’re trying.

Professor Dale Sturm: 31:08 Certainly, your mission leaders, your young mission leaders, district leaders and zone leaders and senior companions, but also, it’s great for young missionaries to see it out in the branches of the church, out in foreign countries or for us in the Midwest where sometimes the branches don’t run quite as smoothly as they do in Provo or Rexburg. And they just got to realize these are people who were doing it because they were asked to and they’re faithfully trying to maintain a standard that isn’t theirs simply because they believe. They’re going to try.

Hank Smith: 31:41 “Be patient,” Paul says in verse 14, “Be patient.”

John Bytheway: 31:45 “Comfort the feeble-minded,” see that one was for me, to people, come and find my feeble mind and comfort me, right?

Hank Smith: 31:52 They can come comfort you.

Professor Dale Sturm: 31:53 That’s an interesting one, feebleminded, because the actual Greek there, it’s not talking about not clear in your thinking. It’s talking about being fainthearted, the doubter. We got to comfort the doubter, not dismiss the doubter or shut down the doubter. We got to comfort and support the weak, is another way of saying the same thing and patient toward all.

John Bytheway: 32:13 I like some of these phrases that he closes out with. My friend Kim Peterson, he’s been teaching institute in Cedar City forever and he gave a whole talk on, “Quench not the Spirit,” verse 19 once. We almost always use that for being thirsty, to quench your thirst, but this idea of quenching not the spirit. And if you look at the footnote on quench, it says extinguish or hinder or suppress. It reminds me one of my favorite quotations from Elder Bruce R. McConkie, if you have a second, he said, “We come into these congregations and sometimes the speaker brings a jug of living water that has in it many gallons and he pours it out on the congregation and all that the members of the church brought was a single cup.” He said, “Or maybe they had their hands over the cups and they didn’t get anything to speak of.”

  33:04 I think maybe quench not the spirit, “No, don’t talk about that. I don’t want to hear about that,” putting your hand over the cup and he went on to say, “Sometimes the speaker just brings a cup and should have prepared better and the people out there have a jug. They want everything you’ve got.” Interesting idea of, “Don’t extinguish the spirit.”

Hank Smith: 33:25 Dale, we have had a great experience in 1 Thessalonians here. I noticed 2 Thessalonians is a little bit shorter. I imagine it’s a follow-up letter. What does Paul teach here?

Professor Dale Sturm: 33:35 You’re exactly right. He seems to be following up. We don’t know how much time elapses between 1 and 2 Thessalonians. It’s believed that he’s still at Corinth when he writes this and it seems like it’s part of an ongoing conversation. I think he’s being responsive to whatever response he got to the first letter. And first of all, in chapter one, more of the Paul of 1 Thessalonians, I love you. You’re fantastic. You are such good examples. We’re so proud of you. And then chapter two, but I do want to deal with a question that seems to have arisen. Chapter two verse one, “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ,” that is in reference to or about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, I want to talk to you about the Second Coming. “And by our gathering together unto him,” so the gathering and the coming of Christ, “that you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled neither by spirit nor by word, nor by letter as from us.”

  34:33 Joseph Smith Translation actually doesn’t change the meaning of any of those, he repositions a phrase. So, in the Joseph Smith Translation, it reads, “That you be not soon shaken in mind or be troubled by letter except you receive it from us.” If you get a letter talking about, if it’s not from us, if it’s not from the recognized authorities, don’t be troubled by it and don’t be troubled by someone who is claiming to have some special revelation or that’s troubled in spirit or troubled by word, by logos, so somebody making some sort of an argument. They’re trying to prove something about the Second Coming from reason. Don’t get troubled imagining that the Day of Christ is at hand.

  35:17 That English gives the impression that Paul’s worried that they’re going to think it’s imminent, but that probably was what everybody thought, that it was imminent. The actual text means, that it’s arrived, that it’s here, that perhaps it’s even coming, you missed it. You and I know that that’s not how the Second Coming is going to be. Nobody’s going to miss it. But they didn’t seem to grasp that. Paul seems to be responding to the possibility that someone has written or preached or taught to these people that the Second Coming’s already happened.

Hank Smith: 35:50 Yeah, Dale, it’s pretty clear in the NIV, he says, “Not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by a teaching allegedly from us, prophecy or word of mouth or letter, asserting that the Day of the Lord has already come.”

Professor Dale Sturm: 36:03 Yeah, and I think that’s probably a better translation of what the Greek text actually says and what Paul’s responding to. It suggests that there might be some misusing the name of Paul or the authorities of the church claiming that they know something that other people don’t know because they, “I ran into Paul at a family reunion and he told me this,” that kind of thing.

Hank Smith: 36:27 It sits so close to home from people, “I’ve got some insider information,” right? Oh goodness. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 36:35 People who have left the church over stuff like that, that, “I’m running out ahead of the train,” as Elder Pace said, “taking a wrong turn.”

Hank Smith: 36:43 But so-and-so says or this YouTube video, he’s got a six-hour …

Professor Dale Sturm: 36:47 Right.

Hank Smith: 36:47 YouTube video on why-

John Bytheway: 36:48 About the date. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 36:50 Yeah, he knows the day of the Second Coming.

Professor Dale Sturm: 36:52 I think those are examples of the kind of thing he’s talking about.

Hank Smith: 36:56 So Dale, are you saying that people are coming among them and saying, “I know something you don’t know. I maybe even know more than Paul about this Second Coming.”

Professor Dale Sturm: 37:05 The brethren aren’t saying much about this, but this is pretty clear. I think Paul’s reacting to that possibility among maybe even some more blatant sorts of things. He assures them in verse three, “Let no man deceive you by any means.” Let’s just be really clear about this. Don’t go down a path where you allow yourself to be deceived, “for that day shall not come except there come a falling away first.” There is at least one major and highly recognizable sign that you have to be watching for and we’re not there yet, that the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition and then some more description about that being. But the idea here is the thoughts of the world will be enthroned and the simple truth of the Gospel will be lost. There will be a falling away, a turning away.”

Hank Smith: 37:57 The thoughts of the world will be enthroned. What an interesting phrase.

Professor Dale Sturm: 38:02 Yeah, and then Paul says, by the way, this is not the first time we’ve talked about this.” Verse five, “Remember you not that when I was yet with you, I told you these things.” This is something we’ve talked about in person. When I was there in that short season before I was running out of town on a rail, we talked about that there will be a falling away. So, we’re still in the fight. The game is still underway. There’s still time on the clock. So, this is interesting because it’s a great example of an apostolic correction. It’s a gentle one, keeping with the tone of both of these letters.

  38:37 Again, it’s not the tone of 1 Corinthians. There’s a, “I praise you not,” we don’t have that here. I just want to correct you on something and I’m beseeching you to remember that we’ve already talked about this and so we have to carry on. And maybe there’s one more verse in chapter two, verse 15 where he teaches the principle again, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast, hold the traditions which you’ve been taught, whether by word or our epistle.” It reminds me of 2 Timothy 3, “knowing that from a child you were taught the holy scriptures.” You’ve been taught this. Cling to what you’ve been taught. Don’t get suckered into other points of view. Look to what we have taught you and what we have written to you to know the truth.”

Hank Smith: 39:25 I like that.

John Bytheway: 39:27 That verse 15, “Therefore, brethren, stand fast,” I’ve always loved that word stand. And when we have a standards night, I love to ask the youth, “What’s the opposite of stand?” It’s shrink, buckle, wilt, compromise. To be a standard-bearer is a strong word, isn’t it? Stand fast. I like it.

Hank Smith: 39:49 Don’t wilt.

John Bytheway: 39:50 Buckle, shrink, compromise.

Hank Smith: 39:53 So, Dale, that’s a mild correction, comparably to the other things we’ve seen Paul write.

Professor Dale Sturm: 39:59 I agree. Paul is generally mild with the Thessalonians, but I’m also impressed that it’s not a place where Paul says, yeah, that’s a little thing. I’m just going to let it go. Particularly because there seems to be some who are misusing the name of authority that they’re claiming that they’ve got the inside scoop, they’ve got the skinny, that they know something nobody else knows and this is a great principle, that unless you hear it from apostolic ministers, you can set it aside.

Hank Smith: 40:29 I remember once as a young seminary teacher hearing that one of President Hinckley’s major concerns, which as a young seminary teacher, I hadn’t even thought of this, was keeping the doctrine pure. And I thought, “Well, why is that such a priority for him?” He says, “I have spoken before about the importance of keeping the doctrine of the church pure and seeing that it is taught in all of our meetings. I worry about this.” He says, “Small aberrations in doctrinal teaching can lead to large and evil falsehoods.” So, is that what Paul is seeing here like, this might start small, but it could grow into something that’s quite a problem?

Professor Dale Sturm: 41:07 I think certainly this is an example of that. When you think about it, the notion that Christ has already come and we missed it isn’t actually that small. That’s a great big doctrinal issue for His church. I think, at any rate, that we see Paul reaching to make corrections, offer apostolic realignments that in the absence of apostolic keys, we as humans, we would mess it up so fast. We just get weird really quick. Paul’s fighting against that. Let’s note this is the earliest or among the earliest letters of Paul, so we’re going to see him have to do that a lot.

Hank Smith: 41:45 I’ll just throw this in for teachers who are listening and both of you will understand this, having been in church education for so long, to be careful of speculation, misquoting. I’ve seen that happen. We get on our own Gospel hobbies, our own topics that you can take off with and say, here’s in chapter five, verse six. We can have sensational stories or we too often give our own private interpretations. We should not teach our private interpretation of the Gospel in class. Does that make sense? Do those warnings that sound true to you having been teachers for so long?

Professor Dale Sturm: 42:25 Yes, absolutely.

John Bytheway: 42:27 One of the things that, boy, I learned in my master’s program from Robert Millet and Joseph McConkie and Robert J. Matthews, it was so interesting to see how careful they were, how long they would wait to answer a question and to be able to point to an authoritative source. I’d never forgot that. Sometimes I would think, “Oh, I know.” But these guys were so slow and careful about what they would say and where they would get their information. That itself was a great lesson.

Hank Smith: 42:54 And as a Gospel teacher, it’s okay to say, “I don’t know.”

John Bytheway: 42:56 “I don’t know,” and they would do that. They would say, “I don’t know.”

Hank Smith: 43:00 Dale, how long have you been in church education now? I bet you’ve seen this a time or two.

Professor Dale Sturm: 43:05 36, going on 37 years, minus three years that we were away.

Hank Smith: 43:11 I don’t know if that’s happening in Thessalonians, but we can unknowingly teach something that is false.

Professor Dale Sturm: 43:16 Yes, it’s possible that this idea was simply a misinterpretation of something Paul had said that since he’s talking about the Second Coming and that we’ll be able to see our deceased loved ones in the first letter, maybe somehow that got twisted to, “Oh, it’s already happened,” and as longtime church educators, our safety is in, “Can we find it in the scriptures and can we find multiple prophets and apostles who are teaching?” and I’m thinking of Elder Andersen’s … We call it the Andersen Rule in my classes where he says that, “True doctrine is taught by all 15 members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12. True doctrine is taught frequently and by many.” If the only place you can show it to me is Orson Hyde, 1855.

John Bytheway: 44:05 Journal of Discourses, yeah.

Professor Dale Sturm: 44:08 Yeah. Then that doesn’t rise to the level of doctrine of the church.

Hank Smith: 44:11 Doctrine of the church. Yeah, I remember him saying in that talk, “Our doctrine is not difficult to find,” over and over and over. Dale, is there anything left in these two letters that we haven’t exhausted? I feel like we’ve really disclosed these two letters and gotten a lot out of them.

Professor Dale Sturm: 44:28 Maybe one more thing in chapter three that’s worth pondering because I think it’s an issue we got to grapple with in the modern church as well. In chapter three, he’s giving them some counsel about dealing with Christians who have fallen away or who are not walking up to their covenant. They’re not doing as well as we would hope that they would do in living the Gospel. I think it’s significant what he says here, but I also think we need to take this counsel and supplement it with Paul’s counsel in other settings, a little cross-reference. I’m in verse six, chapter three verse six, the very end of 2 Thessalonians, “Now we command you brethren in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly and not after the tradition which he received of us.” Don’t affiliate and associate with them.

  45:24 But I’m also thinking of what he says to the Galatians. Can we just compare it for a second and jump over to Galatians chapter six? It’s filling the same spot in the letter to the Galatians. It’s right at the end and it might have something to do with their varied circumstances. To the Thessalonians, he says, “Withdraw yourself” from someone who’s not being orderly. To the Galatians, this is chapter six, verse one, he says, “If a man be overtaken in a fault, you which are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of meekness,” and then a little warning, “Considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.” Go after them. Go find them. Be a little careful about where you go. Watch yourself, that, don’t allow your position to drift in order to make theirs more palatable, but go get them.

  46:13 To the Thessalonians, he says, “Withdraw,” but maybe softens it a little bit back in 2 Thessalonians chapter three, verse 13 through 15, really the final moments, “But you, brethren, be not weary in welldoing.” It can be tiresome to always try to make good choices, that’s built in there, but I think he’s specifically talking about towards each other, do good to one another and don’t get tired. Hang in there. Don’t be weary, verse 14, “And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man and have no company with him that he may be ashamed.” So, there is this sense of we should use our influence in order to help people make good choices, but verse 15, “Yet, count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.” Don’t reclassify him as on the outside, apostate enemy. Think of the way you would reclaim a brother, the way you want to help somebody that you love.

  47:14 I think that we are required to, as a body, as the body of Christ, maintain standards and sometimes it will be uncomfortable for people to hear the standards that we maintain and proclaim, but also as a body of Christ, we have to be loving and kind and forgiving. Otherwise, we lose the moral authority to proclaim the standards in the first place. So, we got to proclaim the standard, hold fast to it, but also go and love and try and love people where they are into living as Christ would have us live. That seems to be his message.

John Bytheway: 47:51 I love this. I think with so many that I come in contact with, I have family members who are no longer meeting with us, I have friends and this advice is great. I want to make it as easy as possible for them to come back. You don’t count them as an enemy, but admonish them as a brother. You still think of them as family and maybe they’ll figure this out. The Lord will work with it. Maybe they’ll come back and try to make that as easy as possible for them to do.

Professor Dale Sturm: 48:17 Yeah, I think that’s the gist of Paul’s counsel. Every time he gives it, that, “You got to go get them. You got to hold to the standard, but you’ve got to go get them. You got to go love them back.”

John Bytheway: 48:26 Yeah, that’s the Doctrine and Covenants phrase.

Hank Smith: 48:29 Dale, I like what you said there earlier about, “How would you want to be reclaimed?” If it were you, how would you want to be treated if you were deliberately disobeying the words of the prophets and apostles, the word of this epistle, and you’re like, “No, I’m not going to obey,” but you want someone to esteem you as an enemy? or help you as a brother? Joseph Smith says this after his first vision, Joseph Smith history, he says, “I was of very tender years and persecuted by those who ought to have been my friends and treated me kindly if they had supposed me to be diluted. They should have endeavored in a proper and affectionate manner to have reclaimed me.” Joseph Smith even sees that in his young age like, “If you really think I’m off, then admonish me as a brother. Don’t treat me as an enemy. You should have been my friend.”

John Bytheway: 49:18 And here’s later on in Joseph Smith’s life, correct me if I’m wrong, guys, is it W.W. Phelps he writes the letter to? “Come, dear brother, though the war has passed and friends at first are friends again at last” and just come back, and he never burnt that bridge, “Friends at first are friends again at last,” and maybe because he went through that.

Hank Smith: 49:38 Yeah. Dale, this has been fantastic today. If I’m at home and I’m listening and I’m folding laundry or I’m mowing the lawn or if I’m in Rexburg, if I’m shoveling snow already, what do you hope I get out of these two epistles from Paul?

Professor Dale Sturm: 49:52 Really good question. Maybe two things. One, you’re probably doing better than you think you are. The Thessalonians were in a unique setting and you have this apostolic encouragement that’s telling them that even though it’s hard and you’re trying to live the gospel and keep your covenant in affliction, you’re doing great. In fact, people are talking about it. You’re an example to others, so you’re probably doing better than you think you are, even if your circumstances feel like, “Boy, this is just too hard.” And then maybe the other thing is that prophets and apostles, the Lord’s anointed, they really love those of us who are striving in the covenant. That encouragement is real. It’s sincere. They get it, they understand it and their desire is to just help. We have an apostle here who loves these people and is trying really hard for them to feel it. The modern brethren love us. They want to help us be successful.

Hank Smith: 50:49 Yeah, John, isn’t that really what we’re hoping for our listeners, is that, “You’re doing really well. You’re doing great”?

John Bytheway: 50:58 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 50:59 Yeah, keep going. You’re facing some difficult things and you’re doing really well.

John Bytheway: 51:04 Dale, this has been fantastic. Thanks for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more New Testament coming up on followHIM.

Hank Smith: 51:20 Today’s transcripts, show notes and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim, dot C-O. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me Study. If you could subscribe too, rate, review and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra and Annabel Sorensen.

President Russell M. Nelson: 51:59 Whatever questions or problems you have, the answer is always found in the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Turn to him. Follow him.