John Bytheway:               00:00:01             Welcome back to part two of Moses one and Abraham three with Dr. Phillip Alred.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:07             Phil, I hate to keep hitting this because we, there’s so much we need to do, but just one more thing. I think maybe even harder than suffering yourself is witnessing your children suffer. Watching others suffer and especially your children. Can’t this doctrine help me as I see a child facing something that is heartbreaking for them and for you?

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:00:34             Yeah, absolutely. In our own circumstances as everyone, we may all be, I suppose, different in the particulars, but like Paul said, all temptation taken you is common to man. In 1 Corinthians 10, we’re having a shared experience even though maybe the details seem a little different. As Jennifer and I have navigated this, as we’ve watched our loved ones, our children, our ancestors, those before us and after us that we love and cherish to see the weight of mortal challenge and opportunity. That’s really what we’re shifting from is to speak of these and conceive of these things as simply bad or hard, but rather to actually see them as agency inviting opportunities, as Christ choosing chances of character building crucibles. Again, to think celestial is to flip the perspective on this as being so negative and so wrong and so unequal or unfair, instead to see, oh, this doctrine provides a vision for which, as you’ve said, oh, this is as what Elder Orson F. Whitney said, no pain that we suffer, no trial that we experience is wasted, but rather ministers to the development, our education and the development of our qualities. I’m just so grateful for that because yes, it does provide a way for those of us who aren’t currently in a crucible looking at others who are, and to see meaning in it, to see conversion and opportunity for Christ in it.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:14             Yeah. Just so our listeners know, sometimes they may assume that our guests don’t face hard things. Phil and Jennifer have faced difficult, difficult things. This doctrine works. The gospel works.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:02:30             Yeah, it does. And when we first learned of something particular, it’s their story too. I don’t wanna overstate things, but when I first became aware of a challenge that one of our children was experiencing, I had the sweet download from the Spirit. It was just lovely and it caused me a lot of pause and comfort. And that was, Phil, salvation and exaltation are very long games. I suppose this would be an appropriate time to share something in a less emotional time when I was reflecting on some of the experiences that our families are having. I was just kind of curiously intrigued by the veil and I had been reading Revelation and how the adversary accuses day and night before the throne. And in a moment there, I was asked, I was thinking, maybe the veil plays a role. I mean, how much can you accuse us down here?

                                           00:03:24             Well, we don’t even remember our premortal life. Well, yeah, they had both hands tied behind their back. And what are you gonna say about that? You know what I mean? They did really well considering they didn’t know anything. I was kind of just curious about that. I don’t have any answers to it, but what happened was really beautiful. I had the experience of the Lord’s voice to me saying what you already know and has come up many times on this wonderful podcast with many of your guests in one form or another. And that is, he tells me, Phil, there’s not one thing about salvation and exaltation that I don’t know. I had quoted President Benson earlier about there’s not one thing we’ll find out that He will have left undone. This was a different message. There isn’t anything about saving and exalting my kids that I’m in the dark on or that I’m not like totally proficient in, and have done worlds after worlds after worlds.

                                           00:04:26             Now, I know that intellectually. I knew that before that day, but here’s that thing again, independent verifiability. Now I know that personally. He told me that. He didn’t tell somebody in the scriptures that or a friend that. I love that. He did that to them too, but I know I have this sweet recognition and peace amidst the turmoil, amidst whatever, the things that seem non-ideal. I have this peace that he knows exactly how to do salvation and exaltation. He’s good at this.

Hank Smith:                      00:05:04             Phil, we’ve had you for a while now, but to be fair, of all the lessons this year, you might have the best one. Tell us your thoughts on Moses one.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:05:14             Let’s just work with that theme that we felt from Abraham. While there’s a lot of material in between, and we’ll pause on some of those, let’s just do a quick overview of where’s the personal? Because this chapter, just like Abraham three, is super cosmic. It’s interplanetary. Those are super interesting. I think I’m as curious about those things as anybody, but with the theme of what we have today, let’s just go verse by verse, and I just wanna highlight. I’ve got all these in yellow highlight in my large set of scriptures here. Verse one, of course, the words of God, he spoke to Moses at a time, Moses was up, caught up in an exceedingly high mountain. We’ll come back to that. But then here too, he saw God face to face. He talked with him. Here again, just like Abraham, but now centuries later, you have Moses experiencing God intimately, personal, face-to-face.

                                           00:06:08             In verse three, God spoke to Moses and said, I am the Lord God Almighty. He does introduce himself, but then fascinatingly in verse four, Thou art my son. And I will show thee. Here we have Joseph Smith receiving in the early 1830s, twin accounts that are consistent between them of how God is not only interested in showing the big picture and the cosmic realms and explaining about how powerful he is, he is very, very committed to making sure each of these sons of his know him and that he knows them. Jesus’ teaching sometimes contains some very hard sayings. In Matthew, he starts his public ministry with the Sermon on the Mount at which he concludes that sermon, the way Matthew structured his gospel, he concludes that sermon with the horrific statement from Jesus about, I don’t know you. That there will be some that will come and knock, knock, Lord, Lord, and he will say, I don’t know you.

                                           00:07:11             You can’t join me and we’re not going to the same place. We’re not gonna be doing the same things. Now, I know that the Joseph Smith translation changes it and it’s critical that it does because it, we’ll see why that’s consistent here. But he concludes, Matthew concludes the public ministry of Jesus in a very similar way by the three parables, the last three parables in Matthew 25, the 10 virgins parable. What does he tell them? The five who come, who finally went and got some oil, or we’re not sure if they totally did get the oil, but they show up and they knock. And he says the same thing. I don’t know you. And the JST wonderfully changes it to, you don’t know me. You never knew me. That hard saying of Jesus echoes in my mind all the time, anything I would do to avoid one day the Lord saying, Phil, you don’t know me.

                                           00:08:03             We don’t have a relationship. You don’t actually know me. And what I love about why that’s scary on one hand and why this is so comforting to me is we see here that God with Abraham and now with Moses is busy trying to be close to them. He’s working to say, Hey, I know you. I know your name. I know you’re my son. Look at verse six. I have a work for thee. Let’s work together. You can see almost that huddle in premortality that we saw in Abraham three. Now with Moses, like, okay, remember we all had this assignment. You don’t remember this, but I got this work for you. Premortally, we worked this out and I got this work for you. You’re in the similitude of mine only begotten. The similitude there is multiple, at least one similitude is yes, we do look like we are in the image of God.

                                           00:08:51             Also, you’re in the similitude of the saving work that he will do. You will be doing saving work like him. It makes me think a little bit of President Hinckley saying that the closest we can ever come to being like Jesus is doing proxy work for the dead and the temple. And literally something they cannot do for themselves, but we can do for them. And that’s the closest we can to do any atoning work in our lives, which I think is such an interesting concept. Verse seven, Now behold, this one thing I show unto thee Moses, my son, name, relationship, for thou art in the world, and now I show it unto thee. Let’s skip over to verse 21. In the middle of having the adversary come to him, Satan’s trembling and the earth is shaking. It’s this crazy scene. Moses received, this is passive, he received strength.

                                           00:09:47             God is with him in the midst of this craziness and he’s giving him strength. He’s like, I’m with you. Go over to 25, Once that has passed, calling on the name of God, he beheld his glory again. So here’s back into God’s presence. He hears this voice. Blessed art thou Moses, again, by name, for I the Almighty have chosen thee. Oh, wow. Verse 26, Lo, I am with thee. Verse 31, The glory of Lord was upon Moses. Moses stood in the presence of God, talked with him face to face again a second time. This is so intensely personal. Now in verse 35, he says, Okay, I’m just gonna give you an account of this earth that I’m giving to you. He’s, I’m giving you this. Look at the bottom of verse 35. These are all mine and why? I know them. I know them. Verse 37, the Lord spake to Moses. Again, the bottom of verse 37. They are numbered to me, they are mine. Now verse 40, Now Moses, my son. I will speak to thee. And now we’re gonna get the creation account, et cetera, and the rest of the chapters two, three and four.

Hank Smith:                      00:11:05             Phil, I love what you’re doing with us so far in Moses one.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:11:10             What’s fun about the book of Moses is as we go back to the start now, there’s really three episodes. Structurally, it’s pretty easy to take a look at verses one through 11 as standing alone because they’re Moses in this experience on this mountain with the Lord and the aftermath of him recovering from it because you do apparently have to recover from being in the presence of the Lord. That’s the first episode. The second episode will be verses 12 through 24, where now out of the Lord’s presence, the adversary comes. We’ll talk about those verses and then verses 25, close to the end of, to 41 will be a renewal of that experience with the Lord. If you study the book of Exodus and track Moses, he goes up and down mountains no less than 12 times that I can count. He’s literally going up and down mountains. So when does this happen? Verse 17 has this reference to the burning bush when he called him out. It’s Moses in the middle of this second episode where Satan is with him, that he makes this reference. When we spoke with Kerry Muhlestein last time, he said, Hey, a lot of people think that these are two discreet experiences, but Kerry suggested that for him, he thought this might be the same moment just a little bit later. Some of this chapter is occurring after that initial burning bush moment.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:40             Since we’re talking who’s who and when’s when, there may be some out there who think, and I can see why they would think that Moses is talking to God the Father here.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:12:51             Oh yeah, yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:52             Right? In the way he speaks. But walk me through that briefly.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:12:55             We know that since the fall, we lost the presence of the Father. We would go back to the Garden of Eden and we know in that exchange and in the fall and really an important distinction, we had to be in a school, if you will, of mortality away from our heavenly parents. We’d already progressed as far as we could. The prophets tell us in premortality with the opportunities there. At some point, our spirit had to become embodied and we had to go out of the presence of God so that we could be in this opportunity of choice and agency. So when we do that, then because the law had been broken, there had to be an intermediary. There has to be a savior. The communication always occurs, and this is a First Presidency message in 1909 that really establishes this too, and multiple prophets since, but the term that’s used is divine investiture of authority. While it’s Jehovah speaking, this Jesus’ premortal life name, that he is giving the words of the Father, and because he’s that messenger, it sounds like it’s the Father.

Hank Smith:                      00:14:00             Right. Moses is speaking to a premortal Christ here, like the book of Ether.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:14:05             Exactly. That’s another great place to see, oh, okay, this is how this is working. Jesus saying, You’re seeing me what I will look like when I come to take upon a body of flesh and blood.

Hank Smith:                      00:14:17             Walk us through these three episodes. This is actually really fun.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:14:21             I know, it’s really cool. Here we have him learning that the Lord says in verse five, he says, look, nobody can behold all my works unless he behold all my glory. But he says, but if you do that, if you behold all my glory, you can’t remain in flesh on the earth. Then in verse six, he says, He is full of grace and truth. Even though Jesus is that, there is no God beside me, which is really interesting. There’s the Father, I’ve given you the Son, and He is incredible, but I am your God. It’s really interesting because Jesus is actually the one that’s saying this, right? We do believe in Heavenly Father as our Heavenly Father as the God. His Son is perfected like him, but there is that distinction there. In verse seven, he says, I’m gonna show you this world. You’re in the world. I’m gonna show it to you. Now what happens is this remarkable unlocking of vision and sight. Verse eight, he looks, he sees the world and the ends thereof. This appears to be all the times and dispensations and all the children of men which are, and which were created. And of course, then the understatement, he greatly marveled and wondered because you’re seeing billions and billions of people. He’s like, oh, my word. All we get in this first episode is this almost teaser of like, hey, let me just blow your mind for a second and show you all the billions of people that’ll ever be on the earth.

                                           00:15:47             Bam. And then the presence of God withdrew. Now remember what he had told him is he says, I’m gonna show you the works of my hands. I’m gonna show you this. I’m gonna blow your mind for a second. I’m gonna burn a bush in front of you. I wanna see if you’re curious. I wanna see if you’re interested. I wanna see if you’re willing to work to know more. Because what happens is he leaves, right, in verse nine. Moses is left to himself. Of course, he falls to the earth. This is so powerful. Makes you think of Sidney Rigdon after the vision of, you know, Joseph’s out there ready to wrestle somebody and Sidney’s, you know, oh, is all pale and what’s up with him? Of course, Joseph’s statement, well, he is not as used to it as I am, which is such a fascinating thing that one day we could be so used to it, as Joseph was. Falls to the earth, verse 10, many hours before he can even get up. Then he says this, okay, I know now man is nothing. I had never supposed that.

Hank Smith:                      00:16:46             Yeah. I’ve seen the glory of Egypt, the center of the world,

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:16:51             The pyramids, carnac, all of this, like- Whoa.

John Bytheway:               00:16:54             I walked among it all.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:16:56             That ain’t nothing. So then in verse 11, this very important point, as the next episode happens, he needs to know this. In verse 11, Mine own eyes have beheld God, but I realized they were not my natural eyes. Remember how I had mentioned that it wasn’t a vision I had of Helaman five. It wasn’t. I didn’t see it. If I had, I probably couldn’t tell you that I had. But do you know what I mean? I didn’t see it, but I think it’s something that was even more powerful. I saw that, if you will, with my spiritual eyes. He even says, my natural eyes could not have beheld this. I would have withered and died in His presence. But instead, I did behold his face because I was allowed to through some power that came to me that he calls transfiguration.

                                           00:17:49             The bottom of verse 11. I was transfigured and I had to be in order to be able to endure this. Because he has this experience and he knows, Oh, this was supernatural. This was beyond my natural capacities. What happens next is really easy to discern. God is gone. He’s had this experience. In fact, I think we can liken it in a lot of ways to I’ve had a spiritual experience, whatever it might be. It’s filled my soul with joy, with light. I feel amazing. And then that goes away. That season has passed for the moment, and then life goes on, and in those moments when lesser ideas, lesser voices call, weaknesses manifest, et cetera, now I can tell the difference. I can see, wait, this feels, this is palpably tangibly different than I felt then. When many of our friends and family are struggling with their faith and they come with a question or they come with deep feelings, if we’re doing what Jesus tells us to do, we’re thoughtful, kind, sensitive, and patient, and we listen, we listen and we listen, we listen, we ask questions.

                                           00:19:05             And through it all, we pose a question. How do you feel versus how you used to feel? If you felt to sing the song of redeeming love, Alma asked, if you’ve been in the beauty of those moments where, as Joseph said, this tastes good, the true doctrine, what does this taste like? It’s okay to have a question you don’t know the answer to and to be bothered by, that’s fine. But when you think you’ve come to an answer that takes you away from the truth, how does that taste? How does that feel? It’s probably different than this. Unless you’re gonna self-deceive, you have to admit, this feels different than that. This feels different than that. So in verse 12, here comes the adversary, tempting him. This is the juxtaposition to all of this name, relationship, personal, the Lord, I know you, I have a work for you, Moses, my son, Moses, now you have the counterpoint.

                                           00:20:09             Here comes the adversary, exactly as President Nelson said so well to the church, especially to the youth in his Choices For Eternity, that it’s about identity. If the adversary can rock us off of who we are as children of God, he comes and he says, Moses slips in this little dig, son of man. Worship me. He reduces him in order to exalt himself to a position of being somebody to worship, but he’s gotta take Moses down from being the son of God, right? He’s gotta shear him off of the herd, if you will, of the noble and great ones. He’s gotta get him off to the side, just like predators do in the Sahara and get this person vulnerable because they don’t know who they are. They don’t know that they’re a child of God.

Hank Smith:                      00:20:58             You have to, I’ve noticed, have enough experiences with the real thing that you can recognize the counterfeit thing.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:21:09             The counterfeit.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:10             I have a brother-in-law, Derek Booth, he’s a bishop out in Castle Rock, Colorado. He’s been in the secret service for many decades, where I look at counterfeit money, not that I run into it very much, but when he sees counterfeit money, he can tell. I mean, it is so quick because he’s been able to spend his life being able to see the real thing versus the counterfeit. It’s really quick for him because he has that experience. It’s interesting that Moses says, this is different, and I don’t like it. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:21:48             We all have to get to that place where we can tell that’s not God right there. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:56             Yeah.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:21:56             With that, he asks Satan a bunch of questions. This is really interesting. He’s actually asking him questions. He says, in verse 13, he says, well, who are you? Because I’m a son of God. He heard, he heard the Lord and he believed him. This is what we’ve gotta do. Moses displays how you handle these moments by believing the messages he’s already been given by the Lord. How many times have the prophets told us, Don’t cast away what you know for the things that you don’t know. When moments of question and I don’t understand, okay, the answer to those is not to jettison what you do know, it’s to do the work of finding out how you can know more, but don’t get rid of what you already know. Elder Holland particularly has been so good at articulating that, President Holland. He’s displaying, this is how you do it.

                                           00:22:49             Don’t give up on what you know, because he says, I’m a son of God, and I’m in the similitude of His Only Begotten. He listened. He heard what was said back in six and seven, and he’s like, Okay, I believe that. I’m guessing in some ways, if there was some time in between here, he has made a record of this. It’s something he can go back to in times of trial and read. Then he says this next question, he says, Where is thy glory that I should worship thee? ‘Cause I’ve just been conked out for hours. Verse 14, I couldn’t even look on him unless his glory was upon me. This is maybe his equation of what translation is, this glory that could come upon him. He says, unless I was transfigured, but I can look at you in the natural man. And then he asked this really funny question. He’s like, Isn’t that true? That’s true. There’s nothing special happening here. I can just see you. This is like the old Sesame Street one of these is not like the other. One of these is just not like the other. And I can judge it. Verse 15, Blessed be the name of God. His spirit hasn’t altogether withdrawn from me. I can now tell that this is actually darkness, which indicates that he was feigning light, that it would have looked like light, but it would have had no substance. This light is there, but it’s not the gravitas of the presence of God or his angels or his ministers.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:18             There is a BYU speech that would go along perfectly with this week’s Come, Follow Me lesson. Look up Elder Holland, Cast Not Away Therefore Your Confidence. It’s a brilliant talk, as most of Elder Holland’s messages are and the way he gives them.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:24:39             I don’t think he’s ever given a clunker.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:42             Here’s one piece of it. He walks through Moses chapter one in quite a bit of this talk. He says, Like Moses in his vision, there may come after the fact some competing doubts and some confusion, but they will pale when you measure them against the real thing. Remember the real thing. Remember how urgently you have needed help in earlier times and that you got it. The Red Sea will open to the honest seeker of revelation. The adversary does have power to hedge up the way to marshal Pharaoh’s forces and dog our escape right to the water’s edge, but he can’t produce the real thing. And that’s exactly what you’ve said here, Phil, is you can tell. You can tell.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:25:29             Isn’t that amazing? Consider in this moment, the attack is you’re not a son of God. You’re nothing special. I’m really great and you gotta worship me. Elder Andersen gave a great talk a while ago in this evening with a general authority address in 2014. He says something that’s really cool about how Moses goes from realizing, wow, God is incredible and I am quote nothing, back in verse 10. Now the adversary comes to basically say, see, see you’re nothing. Look how nothing you are. And he tries to broker that recognition that in comparison to God, he’s nothing, but Satan wants to turn that into a malignant thing rather than an invitational. Here’s what Elder Andersen said in that address. He says, As we realize the greatness of God and that God is our Father, hope will increase. That hope is magnified in His Son, Jesus Christ. You’ll remember that Moses was left alone and Satan came tempting him saying, Moses son of man worship me.

                                           00:26:29             But Moses confronted Satan with the verses that we’ve just read. Now, Elder Andersen continues. He says, Moses realized that while he was nothing, he was somebody. How about that? He realized he was nothing, because he was a son of God, he has eternal value. Realize that in comparison with God, sure, he’s nothing, but because he’s a son of God, this eternal value is in place. So Elder Andersen then said, There is no need for despair. We are sons and daughters of God. His only begotten Son is our Savior and Redeemer. As we love him, he will lift us above our troubles. As we repent, he will forgive us. Because of Him, we will be resurrected. As we live worthily, we will be washed clean and return to our Father forever. Isn’t that so great? I love it. I am nothing, but I am divine.

                                           00:27:30             There is, in Christ, a power greater than the adversary. There is a sphere yet to come, a world, as we’re gonna go into the next verses, a world yet to come, and worlds plural yet to come that are better, greater, happier than this world. But this world is a critical part of the transformation. By the way, the logic doesn’t work. It ends up that he’s logicing, if you will, that, can we make a verb out of that? I guess I just did. Logicing. Right. As he’s visiting with the adversary and then asking him these questions, it turns out in verse 17, God had given him commandments, right? So he said, Oh, 16. Sorry. Get thee hence, Satan. I can tell you’re not God and I’m not gonna worry. You gotta go away. Go away. And then in verse 18, Moses said, I’m not gonna cease calling upon God. I’ve got things I wanna know. I’m curious. I got questions. I can sense you can’t answer them for me. All you seem to be doing is raising questions. I wanna go to the person that actually has answers. All you do is raise questions. I wanna get to him who can actually give me answers.

Hank Smith:                      00:28:42             Oh, Phil, I’m gonna quote you on that forever. How many sources do we have out there about the church, about God, about Joseph Smith? They’re pretty good at raising up questions.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:28:53             And it’s like whack-a-mole. Even if you can try to give an an- guess what? More questions.

John Bytheway:               00:28:57             Right. They’ll never be satisfied.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:28:58             There’s never … No. It’s just a big whack-a-mole game, right?

Hank Smith:                      00:29:02             But you have no answers. I need answers, not questions.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:29:05             I need answers. I wanna go to the guy that has the answers. I don’t wanna waste my time with all this. Now, again, this is not to denigrate honest, real intent questions.

Hank Smith:                      00:29:15             Absolutely.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:29:16             The whole restoration begins because a real intented young man said, I wanna know how do I get forgiven of my sins. I wanna know how this works. We’re never denigrating honest, real intent questions, but we do have to realize with clarity that the adversary is only trying to raise doubt after question after doubt after question. Remember, it’s, it doesn’t work. He tells him to go away, and it doesn’t work. Go away. So in verse 19, when Moses had said these words, Satan actually gets really upset. He’s mad. Reminiscent of the temple. You know what I mean? It’s like starts to, huh, okay. And he rants on the earth in this loud voice and he’s commanding and he’s even claiming I’m the only begotten, worship me, which is suggestive of his imposter that he likes to be an imposter. That factors in the Garden of Eden, I think. John Milton and Hugh Nibley both suggested, yeah, he shows up and he’s trying to be an imposter. He’s trying to be the guy. In verse 20, now Moses seeing that while he doesn’t have the gravitas of God, he’s still got something and it’s scary and he starts to fear and he’s began to fear, he sees the bitterness of hell. But then this word, this to me is the critical word and it’s found elsewhere in scripture. The word is nevertheless. To me, that’s a marker for the assertion of agency that we’ll be in a moment and it’s tough or we don’t know what to do or it’s confusing or it could be any number of things. And we acknowledge, wow, this guy’s freaking out, right? You know, here’s Satan, he’s freaking out on me. I can’t seem to get rid of him.

                                           00:31:00             And right? Nevertheless, he asserts his agency. What does he do? He calls on God, receives strength, and he then commanded, you gotta go, Satan. You really gotta go. Well, this one God is the only one I’m gonna worship. It’s the God of glory. But wildly enough, that doesn’t work. Verse 21, Satan began to tremble. The earth even begins to shake. Moses now, having called upon God, received strength a minute ago, now receives more strength. Part of that strength was revelatory. I think we’re not just talking about some might that he received. I think he gets the direction, son, you’re gonna have to call on my Son to get rid of this guy. Because that’s what he does next. In the name of the only begotten, depart hence Satan. Satan cries with a loud voice, weeps, wails, gnashes his teeth, departs. Whoa. Now, what I find really cool about this is that at the implication of the name of the Son of God, Satan has to obey.

Hank Smith:                      00:32:16             Only one person scares him.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:32:18             Yeah, there we go. Do not call that guy.

Hank Smith:                      00:32:22             Yeah, do not. All right. I’m out.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:32:26             Years ago, when I was working in Idaho and the church education system, we had an area director. His name was L. Edward Brown. And I think he’d been the mayor of Pocatello for a time and things. He was just a marvelous educator. He’s passed now, but he was called as a general authority. He was served in the second quorum, I believe, for a few years. In his conference address, he got to give a conference address. He says the following, and this is from April 1997. He says, Here was a power that was dark and bitter. How could Moses withstand such? In this great moment of crisis, Moses receives strength, called upon God saying in the name of the Only Begotten depart hence Satan, the verse we just read in verse 21. He now appealed, Elder Brown says, to a power beyond his own.

                                           00:33:16             Remember, he’d made logic? Moses tried a lot of things. He now appealed to a power beyond his own. He tapped into a source of strength and authority through the Lord Jesus Christ, a power which Satan could not defy, as you said Hank. This is the only person that scares Satan. He continues and said, Moses appealed to a power beyond his own, tapping into this source of strength beyond his own that he couldn’t defy. He then said, When we use these sacred words, in the name of Jesus Christ, they’re much more than a way to get out of a prayer or close a testimony or a talk. We’re on holy ground, brothers and sisters. We’re using a name, most sublime, most holy and most wonderful, the very name of the son of God. What power and reassurance and peace come when we really pray in his name?

                                           00:34:13             This conclusion to the prayer may in many ways be the most important part of the prayer. We can appeal to the Father through his victorious Son with confidence that our prayers will be heard, we can ask and receive, we can seek and find the open door. That’s wonderful. Wisdom says, how can we employ His name more often, more powerfully, in more settings?

Hank Smith:                      00:34:41             Yeah, at home. Talk about him more. Read about him more.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:34:46             Yeah. Isn’t it beautiful that now we have a new prophet, a new prophet in the land? Dallin H. Oaks, he gave one of his early talks as an apostle. It was about the name of the Lord. Many remember that he taught about five ways in which the name of the Lord will be a blessing to us in which we need to engage and receive his name. This is the April 1985 conference. He talks about how baptism is where we first enter the covenant path and receive his name, that there’s a renewal in the sacrament that as members, the second way is that we’re supposed to proclaim His name. We take His name upon us in baptism. Now, as members of the church, we proclaim His name, publicly proclaiming our belief in Him. The third way is that we engage in the work of His kingdom, part of which is, of course, proclaiming His name in say formal missionary work or informal ways, but also even things like suffering shame for His name, doing the work of His kingdom. He said those three ways are pretty easy for most people to recognize that we take on the name of Christ. But he said there’s a fourth and a fifth that upon further reflection present themselves. He said, The scriptures speak of the Lord putting His name in a temple, on the temple even, because inside the temple, the authority for His name to be used in sacred ordinances of that house is given.

                                           00:36:18             We commence in the covenant path with taking on His name in baptism, but it’s a path. It wasn’t a destination. It’s a path that stretches forward into the house of God whereon and wherein we take further the name of Christ upon us. In the sacrament, he says, we actually indicate that by saying we’re only willing to take upon us. That language is really interesting, right? I thought we were renewing our covenant. We made a baptism. We surely are, but that is not the arrival. That is the commencement of the covenant path, which is to lead us into his house.

John Bytheway:               00:37:00             I remember that talk. He talked about the temple comes later about really taking His name, but being willing as part of the, like you said, the covenant path, which I think Moses would say is a covenant climb. It’s the mountain.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:37:16             That’s right. He would say that. And President Eyring has talked about, he says, you know, you’re on the right path if it’s uphill. You always know if you’re on the right path. And so he called it, in fact, the covenant climb in one of the leadership trainings prior to a recent conference. With that, then as we enter into the temples and we certify in a sense our candidacy to become temple worthy and enter into the temples and do that work, to receive his name there in special ways that can only be had inside of His house when we partake of the sacrament. Even eight-year-olds, having started that covenant path, if parents will teach them, this is a remarkable way to help them keep temple-minded, taking on the name of the Lord. The final way in which President Oaks, at the time, Elder Oaks, talked about it was another future event we may anticipate is when we witness our willingness to take on the sacred name is concerning our relationship to our Savior and the blessings available to those who will one day be called in His name at the last day.

                                           00:38:21             We will literally be called in His name and had we put it upon us throughout these … I love that from President Oaks. Maybe this would be appropriate to share with you because President Oaks is our new prophet, I like little moments where we get to know things about them. I had been so enamored of his 2000 conference address, the Challenge to Become that I actually designed an entire education week, three hour presentation on that talk. You know how we do, and we use various settings, you’re like… So I’d made this really cool thing. Well, turns out he came to be the Education Week speaker for this three-day event. So I thought, oh, this will be really cool. Part of me was like, I wonder if he even knows that I’ve made a three-hour thing out of his talk, right? You know?

                                           00:39:08             I go up in the handshake line. I’m sure in my silly mind, I’m thinking, Well, this would be really cool. I can say, President Oaks, thank you. I love that talk. By the way, I did a whole three-hour thing on your talk, right? You know, nerdy, goofy. So I get up there, I’m excited. I had the experience with him in the mission field a couple decades earlier where we’d shared about reading scripture and receiving revelation as we do so. This is my second chance to be in his presence. Had the most interesting experience. I go to shake his hand and I’m about to, my mouth is about to open to say… And he takes, he takes my hand, he shakes it, but his other hand is on my elbow and he is, I wouldn’t say forcibly, but it was very clearly he’s moving me past. And in a moment, almost like, remember the Christmas Story movie where the little kid wants a Red Ryder BB gun and he’s up there with Santa, you know what I mean?

                                           00:40:02             And he’s all tongue tied. He’s like, Uh, and he’s like, Oh, you want a football, don’t you? And he shoves him down the thing and he’s like, no! And about halfway down the side, he’s like, No, I want a Red Ryder BB gun. And the moment’s passed and it’s just, I had that moment like, Whoa, I was shaking hands with the apostles. I just wanted to tell him thank you for this talk and look at this is cool. And I just got shoved down the slide. I looked back, coolest thing ever. I looked back, you know, slightly dismayed, like, oh, well, there was, there was my chance. What happened? The woman behind me, she’s in tears, like tears are streaming down her face. He took her and he spent time with her. I saw an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ in action. In that moment, I didn’t need that. Hey, how cool I made a three hour thing on your talk. No, that’s nothing. This woman was in pain and the Savior through his apostle was taking time with her. It was one of the most sweet privileges to be moved down the slide because the prophet of God was ministering to someone who needed it in that moment.

Hank Smith:                      00:41:15             Phil, what an interesting chapter so far, moment of truth, light, then complete darkness, fear, fight through it, bring in the right name that scares the adversary and boom, light again.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:41:33             Yeah. We have to go through the difficult times and the dark threads, as John shared so well from Elder Maxwell before. Those are a really critical part of our lives, otherwise without the tearing of those muscles, there’s none of that. Knowing that and realizing that in verse 25, calling upon the name of God, Moses now beholds His glory again. He hears this voice and he says, Blessed art thou Moses. This is one of those moments where God has said, Okay, you have seized your agency. You said nevertheless and acted in faith, now I can do more with you. Had Moses receded, the next episode doesn’t happen. The nevertheless moments in our lives are critical. Nevertheless, followed by faithful action, calling on the name of the Lord or engaging in His gospel in more full ways will bring then further opportunities. Here he is telling him that he’s gonna be made stronger than many waters, an indicator, you know, a foreshadowing.

John Bytheway:               00:42:36             Now, what could that possibly mean? Yeah.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:42:40             The Nile River, all these things. Of course, of course, the biggie, the Red Sea. He says in verse 26, I’m with thee to the end of thy days, you’re gonna deliver my people, even Israel, my chosen, obviously pre-Egypt. But then this, while the voice was speaking, Moses cast his eyes and now is shown the earth. Remember, he’d seen it before in the first episode, but here he gets to see it, even all of it, even down to the particulate level. In fact, there was not a particle even. I don’t know if we’re down at quark levels or what, are we just talking cellular? I’m not totally sure what we’re talking about here. Added to it now, that’s super teeny, but then he comes up the scale and says in 28, I beheld the inhabitants thereof. There wasn’t a soul that I didn’t behold. I discerned them by the Spirit of God. Their numbers were great, numberless as the sand on the shore. He sees all these different lands. I’m guessing he’s seeing, again, time rolling forward. So, Moses has some questions. What he learns is really amazing, and this is where I think we can end with crescendo in our time with Moses and Abraham today. But as he’s talking with the Lord face to face, he says in verse 30, I wanna know why. Why are you doing this? And I wanna know how you did it. By what did you do this? Like, how do you do this? As you read through it, you see that the Lord says, Look, it’s wisdom in me why I did it in verse 31. He’s going to be explaining it in a few verses, but he wants to crescendo with that, the why.

                                           00:44:24             But he says, Let me just tell you how I did it. I did it, in verse 32, by the very power, the powerful person, shall we say, that you called upon to rid yourself of this enemy. I made all this by the same power. Jesus is the man. Jesus is the answer. He’s the answer to creation. He’s the answer to deliverance. He’s the answer to every single thing that’s gonna happen in your life that is of significance and import. What’s fascinating here is he says in verse 33, worlds plural. So it’s been mind blowing enough that Moses has seen this world in its particulate specificity and also in its soul specificity. He’s seen that. That’s enough for an afternoon. But he says, actually, there are worlds plural, Moses, and I did them all for the same purpose. Verse 33, And they all came by the Savior.

                                           00:45:29             See, again, the elevation of Jesus. So in 35, he says, But okay, so I’ve just teased you that there’s these other worlds, but I’m not gonna tell you about them. So it’s a okay. He says, there are many worlds that have passed away. There are many that now stand. They’re innumerable to you. This seems to be like an object lesson. Like with Abraham, all these stars, it seems like he’s really saying, so let me get your attention. Now I wanna tell you what you really need to know because what you really need to know in verse 35 at the very bottom is, they are innumerable to you. You can’t number them all, but they are mine and I know them. We’ve gone galactic and then we’ve gone interpersonal in such a beautiful way. I know them. You don’t know them. You can’t know them. You can’t even number them, but I do. As he asks in verse 36, well, tell me about this earth at least then. Verse 37, God’s not quite done with this point. And he says, okay, Moses, I know you’re deferring here, but let me seal the point. The heavens, they are many. They can’t be numbered unto man, but let me tell you, I have numbered them and they are mine. He won’t let this point go. He repeats it, changes the scheme. Even though Moses is interested in saying, well, okay, fine. God seems to be very clear here. I know them. And we would ask the question then, But do we know Him? Do we know Him? Are we doing the work like Moses and Abraham to get to know Him and be in relation with Him? ‘Cause He knows us. There’s no question He knows us. He says in verse 38, Look, earths are gonna pass away.

                                           00:47:21             Heavens are gonna pass away, but my works and my words, they’re always going on and it’s personal. It’s very personal to me. I’ve numbered them and I know them. Let’s do verse 39 as the killer verse. It’s the epitome of everything. And as I said at the outset, what struck me in preparation for our time together was I felt like the Lord really said, you are my work and my glory. Every one of you are my work and glory. Immortality is to live forever. And that is a promise of Jesus Christ that every person that would come to this earth through the plan of God, right, that Jesus Christ and Father would provide an immortal life. You would get a body and you will have that body for eternity. That’s the overcoming of the fall with no price on our own with, other than our first estate keeping, we get this body and we will be immortal.

                                           00:48:19             The fine point is that there is a quality of immortality. There is a property, if you will, a sphere in which you can experience your immortality that is varied and that is by choice, that is available, but is not gonna be forced on anyone. That is what is called, quote, eternal life.

John Bytheway:               00:48:45             I just love that, that when Moses says, hey, I’m not gonna stop calling upon God. I have other things to inquire of him. And then we hear what he inquires. Why are these things so? He gets to see what I’ve never seen, all the inhabitants on, right? And then he asks again, tell me concerning this earth. He gets answers to some of those. I have other things I wanna ask him too.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:49:12             The Lord sponsors those questions. I mean, if you think of, say, for example, the brother of Jared, what God suddenly forgot how to build barges that don’t suffocate people and steer them into the rocks?

John Bytheway:               00:49:25             Yeah. Go figure it out.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:27             Right.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:49:27             You know what I mean? So it’s just like, really? Oh, oh, we didn’t staple pages five and six into the brochure we gave to… Gabriel, come on, you gotta do better with the stapler or something. Right. No. He, very deliberately sponsoring questions. You go through the scriptures, the Lord is deliberately giving only line waiting upon faithful action to get the next line. This precept, to see if you’re curious and paying attention and even care, and if you do, ah, precept two is available. Again, this independent verifiability that this invitation to all of us to ask, seek and knock. I don’t know if you guys have had this experience. I’m guessing you have. I have had well-meaning, I think, students here and there just say, Well, aren’t we just gonna be bored in heaven? I mean, we’re just gonna be, like, in the choir, singing ceaseless praises and, look, look, I like God. I love God. I’m sure. But I mean, really, after 10 minutes, after 10 million years, am I gonna be sick of just sitting in the choir or singing ceaseless praises? Has that question ever been posed to you in some form or another about what the next life is like and is it worth it? Is it worth the work? Is it worth the try?

Hank Smith:                      00:50:48             Or it sounds scary, the idea of, like, never ending, Oh, no, I, I don’t know if I like that idea.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:50:54             Yeah. I’ve been grateful for a few prophetic statements that have expanded my vision, and they find some interesting corollary. Remember earlier we were talking about the Egyptian religion? It’s like one of the few that says, Hey, marriage is a thing that goes on into the eternities. In fairness to some of our Christian brothers and sisters who read Matthew, perhaps at the expense of Mark and Luke’s account of the, you know, the seven brothers had the same wife and who gets her and then Jesus saying, Well, they’re not marrying or given in marriage in the resurrection. If you don’t read the Mark account and the Luke account and synoptically put those together, and if you don’t have Section 132 the Doctrine and Covenants, along with other modern prophets, it’s hard. It’s hard to see that, yeah, this is the thing. I’m not critical of our Christian brothers and sisters who reading Matthew say, well, eternal family. But I am hoping that they will carefully read and accept the restorations additions to then say, oh, there’s something beautiful to be had here.

                                           00:52:02             I thought it might be fun to share with you something from Elder Orson F. Whitney. He was a poet, you know, and an artist in a sense, but also a great apostle. He said this, he says, What’s the Lord gonna do with this beautiful world? So we read that worlds are coming in and out of existence and this earth is part of these worlds and where’s it headed and what’s going on with it? Here’s Elder Orson F. Whitney. This is conference report, October 1928. For those that wanna go get the whole thing, October 1928 conference report. What’s the Lord gonna do with this beautiful world? Did he create it merely to destroy it? He is going to change it into a heaven, a home for the righteous. Now check this out. He says, and this is pre-President Nelson, but he says, Mormonism says that when we pass out of the body, we are in the spirit world and we’ll remain there, the righteous resting from their labors, not in idleness, but in doing, working, without weariness, without pain, while awaiting a glorious resurrection.

                                           00:53:02             Then, when they are then to have the privilege of coming back to spend their time on this planet when it is celestialized and converted into a heaven. Kind of quickly there, there’s a spirit world. This earth though, when it’s passed through its mortality gets to upgrade, we know the millennium will be an upgrade to terrestrialization, but there’s gonna be an upgrade still, a new heaven and a new earth in which this is very much like the ordinal path for the earth. Just like there’s an ordinal path for every soul, the earth is going through that. We read that in section 88, that the earth itself is gonna go through a baptism, if you will, and go through a resurrection, right? Here’s the earth then going to be this heaven. He says, Does any sane man or woman believe that an all wise God would create an earth like this and place his children upon it to become expert and skillful as farmers, artisans, engineers, bankers, merchants and whatnot, whisk them away to some distant part of the universe, some world beyond the bounds of time and space where they would sit down and twiddle their thumbs and stare somebody out of countenance for a million years. How about that? He says, Is this reasonable? Is it sensible that God would do that?

Hank Smith:                      00:54:25             I’d hang out with John for a million years.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:54:28             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:28             Yeah. There’s a couple of people I’d be like, sure.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:54:31             Maybe those thumb games. 1,001,101 to… for eternity, right? Elder Whitney continues and says, I expect to do, to spend it, meaning eternity, doing there, this celestialized earth, the things I’ve learned to do here, that’s common sense, it’s logical, it’s economical elsewhere all this wasted time. No, we’re not gonna sit down through all eternity and gaze upon the face of the Savior. In parentheses, he says, I don’t believe he would want anyone to look at him that long. It would be bad manners.

John Bytheway:               00:55:12             Wow.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:13             That’s awesome. It would be bad manners.

John Bytheway:               00:55:18             You’re staring.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:55:18             I know, right? You’re staring at me again. We shall do in eternity the things we have learned to do in time, but we will do them better there than here. We will be better fathers and mothers, better husbands and wives, better in every way. Every faculty exercised and developed here will find full play and employment in the great hereafter.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:43             Hmm. That’s beautiful. I love the bad manners part.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:55:48             Yeah. Isn’t that awesome? Now, this next quote is awesome. I love this. This is probably a little bit more familiar. Orson Pratt in the Millennial Star from 1866. I know that just rolls off of everybody’s tongue, but-

Hank Smith:                      00:56:03             Of course. Nonetheless- I was just reading it the other day.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:56:07             Yeah, right, see. As you do. Anyway, Orson Pratt said this, This earth when glorified is the saints eternal heaven. On it, they expect to live with body parts, and holy passions. On it, they expect to move and have their being to eat, drink, converse, worship, sing, play on musical instruments, engaged in joyful, innocent social amusements, visit neighboring towns and neighboring worlds. Indeed, matter and all its qualities and properties are the only beings or things with which they expect to associate. Then it gets even better. A heaven with lands, houses, cities, vegetation, rivers, and animals, with thrones, temples, palaces, kings, princes, priests, and angels, with food, arraignment, musical instruments, et cetera, all of which are material. Indeed, the Saints heaven, is a redeemed, glorified, celestial material creation, inhabited by glorified material beings, male and female, organized into families, embracing all the relationships of husbands and wives, parents, and children, where sorrow, crying, pain, and death will be known no more.

John Bytheway:               00:57:32             Hmm. Sign me up.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:57:36             Bring it. Right? Yeah. As we wrap back now to verse 39, this colossal and condensed, remarkably condensed picture of what it is for us, Moses, Abraham, all of us by name to have immortality and eternal life, that that is the thing Gods do in eternity, that our heavenly parents, this is what they do, and obviously they do it really well. Literally, this is their work. This is what they joy in, this is their glory. They preach, yes, eternal family, but they live it. They are doing it. That’s what they are and who they are, to know what we worship and who we worship according to Section 93. It’s to know this. It’s to know our relationship to them as family. It’s, this is the family business.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:36             I love to see how passionate you are about this, Phil.

John Bytheway:               00:58:38             Look how selfless it is. I created all of you so that you would come back here and praise me and adore me forever and that’s it.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:58:46             Stare me out of a countenance for eternity.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:48             That’s bad manners.

Dr. Philip Allred:              00:58:50             Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:58:51             I love how selfless it is. No, I created you for your own immortality and eternal life and the kind of life that I live. Recently, a great scholar gave a talk at Ensign College about- I think he actually was quoting Lehi, the title of his talk was, Because of the Righteousness of Thy Redeemer. Boy, did he get passionate about this verse. His name was, is Henry Smith, otherwise known as Hank Smith. If you wanna go to Ensign College’s website. Watch Hank’s talk because, man, you had some one-liners in there that were just so good.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:32             When I went to talk to Phil about this episode, I had it in mind. I was actually preparing that message. John, you’re the one … I think you’re the one who told me someone asked Albert Einstein once. Someone said, If you could talk to God, what would you say? He said, I’d want to know how he created the universe. And then he stopped and said, that’s just equations. I think I could figure that out. He said, I’d want to know why. I’d want to know why cause then I would have purpose.

John Bytheway:               01:00:02             I would know the meaning of my life. It’s beautiful. And Stephen Hawking said, Science may solve the problem of how the universe began, but it cannot answer the question of why does the universe bother to exist? Well, we’ve got an answer right there. This is why the universe exists. This is His work and his glory.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:24             His why, his passion. This is my joy. This is my mission. This is my end goal.

John Bytheway:               01:00:29             Yeah. That’s why I like that. My passion, my glory. I mean, we have eight year olds in primary who could go teach Albert Einstein something. Well, actually, it’s right here. We can read so quickly past that, but that is, people have called it a mission statement, is so succinct and so beautiful. If you had to find a mission statement for Satan, I might choose the last part of 2 Nephi 2:27. He seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

Hank Smith:                      01:01:01             And you have them both here, right? In Moses one. You have them side by side. John, you’re the one that’s showed me years and years ago the scriptures.byu.edu. And you can see the references of the scriptures when they’ve been used in general conference. Go look at 2 Nephi 2:25, and it’s been referenced 200 times. And then you go look at Joseph Smith’s, you know, this is my beloved son here. That one’s been referenced 200 times in general conference. If you go look at Moses 1:39, it dwarfs them all right at 400 times or plus it’s been referenced in general conference. This is, I just don’t have the right words to say how important this is that now we have purpose, that question that the human race has. Why am I here? We have the answer. I think Einstein would say, Where’d you get this? Oh, just a 25-year-old farmer in 1831.

John Bytheway:               01:02:04             Yeah, 1831. I’m glad you pointed that out how early this was. Joseph Fielding McConkie said once, changed my life in a class. All he said was, we read scriptures too fast. You can go past that pretty fast, but that is … Well, I’ll say it again. That’s dynamite. That’s amazing. Put so many other things into perspective.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:32             John, you’ve taught me how this can help me as a parent. Would you mind just doing that again?

John Bytheway:               01:02:37             Hmm. Oh, you’re so kind. And you’ve taught me something too, Hank, I’ll circle around about the same thing, but sometimes we read that and we think it says to parents, this is your work, your glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of your children. And that’s not what the Lord’s saying. He says, actually, this is my work. This is my glory and I am able to do my work in the Book of Mormon. Instead of saying, Heavenly Father, you need to help my children. We can say, Heavenly Father, will you help me help your children? That was a good one, Hank. You taught me that using this same thing. Those temple covenants, they’re awesome. They’re maybe more powerful than we sometimes think, and this is His work. And I hope we feel a, oh, a sense of He can do this. He’s good at this. He knows what he’s doing, and you’ve both talked about ample provision and not left one thing undone. Thank you, President Benson. I think about the people who are listening to this who are in a tough spot, a tough place, maybe emotionally, maybe physically. They are in a tough place. He’s got you. The Lord’s got you. He knows what he’s doing. He’s good at it. If you’re listening, it’s even better because He knows you’re hearing this.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:05             John, you’ve given me an opportunity to reference my favorite chapter in the Book of Mormon. Jacob chapter five, where the servant comes over to the Lord and he says, Hey, you put this tree in the worst spot. Like, even says it in verse 21, How comest thou hither to plant this tree? This is the poorest spot in all the land of the vineyard. And the Lord of the vineyard said unto him, Counsel me not. I knew that it was a poor spot of ground. I knew what I was doing. John, I love that when someone says to the Lord, why did you do this? This is the worst possible thing you could do. Counsel me not. I knew. I know what I’m doing. I love it.

John Bytheway:               01:04:54             Hank, thank you for grafting that in at the last moment.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:58              I saw what you did there. He’s the king of that, just so you know.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:05:02             The companion piece in some ways to that with Moses in a chapter you’ll be covering here soon in Exodus is Moses is understandably humbled at the call to go deliver Israel, especially from Egypt where he’s had a bad history, a bad past. Understandably, he’s reticent. He’s, whoa, who am I? Enoch like, I’m but a lad, what are you doing? In Moses’ case, he’s more articulate, ironically, about what the problem is. He says, it’s my mouth. And we don’t know totally what it is. Is it a stuttering issue? Is it, what is it? And hence, Aaron, the spokesperson, et cetera, that will be given. But the Lord, on the way to making provisions for him, he says the same thing. He says, Essentially, don’t counsel me. I made your mouth. Turns out I made your mouth. I’m really well aware of what’s up with your mouth. And while that’s a funny moment and, like, ah, you know, you know, get Moses there for a second. It’s not that. It’s a comfort to say, Moses, do you really think I don’t know? Do you really think the omnipotent, omniscient God of the cosmos isn’t aware, which we just heard over and over and over again between Moses one and Abraham three, that he knows, he numbers, he’s very acquainted. He knows all our names and all our games, all the situations. So, I’m grateful that you brought that up because the reinforcement comes again later in Moses’ life and he’s struggling with the call. And we struggle with lots of calls, don’t we? Yet God is like, I got you, as John said, I got you. We got this together.

John Bytheway:               01:06:43             For Moses to say, Now I know that man is nothing. It’s interesting to me that the Lord doesn’t say, you’re great, you’re awesome, you’re special. He just says, I know, I am with thee. I will be with thee. And with me, we got this. So I love that Moses, I’m slow speech, I’m of a slow tongue. Does he not speak Egyptian or he doesn’t speak Hebrew, he speaks Egyptian. I don’t know what that was, like you said. I love the Lord’s answer. I’m with you because I think sometimes we try to build up self-esteem like crazy. Here’s Nephi saying, O wretched man that I am. No, Nephi, you’re great, you’re awesome. No, I know in whom I have trusted. With God, I can do this. And that’s the answer, you know.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:07:33             That is the answer. He is the answer.

Hank Smith:                      01:07:36             Phil, we’ve talked today about the cosmic and the personal. I’ve heard you tell a story that I was so touched by when it comes to the, just the personal nature of God. And that is on the steps of the testing center at BYU. Would it be okay if I ask you to share that with my friends?

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:07:57             Uh, yeah. I’d be honored. You know, it’s just one of those divine signatures where you just say, okay, yeah. Only God can do that. I came from a smaller town in Idaho. I wasn’t academically probably really so well prepared. That’s not my teacher’s fault or my school district’s fault necessarily. I get to BYU as a freshman and I get to my Shakespeare class. I’d taken a Shakespeare class in high school and I get there and the teacher, the instructor reads a stanza, one of the sonnets probably, and then just says, Okay, so what kind of poetic structure is this? People are yelling it out and, you know what I mean? It’s like everybody knows this and I had never even heard of what the right answer was. I’m just discouraged. I already had imposter syndrome. Things like that just kept happening and I just thought, I don’t belong here. I am over my skis. This is whew. So I essentially flunk out of every no, not essentially. I did. I flunked out of every first semester class I took at BYU. It’s on my transcript today. 16 credits of 0.0 GPA. Yeah. That’s humbling.

Hank Smith:                      01:09:07             That, yeah.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:09:08             They basically kicked me out and I deserved it. I then began to read the Book of Mormon and longer story that we started a little earlier, but I started reading the Book of Mormon and I started to get my stuff together. The Lord is very kind. He lets us repent. He begs us to repent. So as I’m repenting in lots of ways, not just spiritually, I go on a mission and I serve the Lord and he teaches me many things. I come back to BYU and as I’m there, I’m fascinatingly working harder in classes, but I’m having actually not that much academic success. And in fact, I’m really, really shocked because I go to the testing center and in the day they had the dot matrix printer, so they would print out your test result. It was like everybody knew. Like if that thing is printing a book, then you probably just wanna leave.

John Bytheway:               01:09:56             No, you walk into that little room and there’s four or five of you waiting for your result. If you ace the test, print your name, uh, uh, student number, your score, and it’s done. But if you missed one, you know, number 14, your answer B, correct answer C. Number 18, your answer C, correct answer B. And it’s like, uh, uh, uh, uh … And the whole room is just, ugh. Oh. Mm, stop, make it … Oh.

Hank Smith:                      01:10:24             I’m so sorry, whoever you are.

John Bytheway:               01:10:26             Please. And then they pull it off and say, Bythway, Bytheway, and you’re like, thank you, that’s mine.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:10:32             It was so demoralizing. It was just ridiculous. So there I am, I’m in this major I think I’m supposed to be in, at least I thought I just can’t pass the test. There I am, I get this essentially a ream of paper from this test. I’m standing on the steps there reading, as I recall, it was either a 41% or a 38%, horrific. I essentially just, I’ve had it. I clearly can’t do this. I wouldn’t be surprised if we rolled the tape back if I yelled up to heaven. And I just said, I can’t do this. I just can’t do this. You don’t always get responses to those, but I did that day. And the response was really this sweet voice with a little bit of a wink in the eye in the voice, and it said, you’ll teach here. That stunned me, but not stunned me so much that I didn’t retort and say, well, that’s funny. I can’t pass the test here. How on earth am I ever gonna teach here?

                                           01:11:38             But it was clear. I go about my business, I end up changing my major. I had left the university for a time. I went through the business of trying to figure this out. I finally come back to BYU and I end up in political science of all things, and then into the church educational system. A few years into being a seminary and institute instructor, opportunity at Rick’s College came up, and I had thought that would be kind of cool. I had worked for Robert Millet as a research assistant when I was a student. He taught me so many wonderful things, and I just thought, how do I get to do something like that? I thought, Well, this will be great. Ricks College, I was hired, but it became BYU Idaho before I actually got to start teaching there. President Hinckley did his prophet thing and created BYU Idaho.

                                           01:12:22             I’m teaching there, and as I’m in the audience as he creates BYU Idaho, before I’ve ever even stepped into a classroom there, I have this memory that God said, the Lord said I would teach at BYU. I’m like, all right, this is actually happening. I’m teaching at BYU Idaho. So I’m like, this is great. I’m there for years. I get asked to teach at the Jerusalem Center, which was a sweet privilege. And so there I drive to Provo one day with my wife and we’re in the ASB and I’m getting signed up. I literally have to be hired by BYU to teach at the Jerusalem Center. I’m sitting in the ASB and I have this reminder. Oh, yeah. The Lord said I’d teach at BYU. How about that? I’m teaching at BYU Jerusalem. How cool.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:10             It worked out. Yeah, it worked out.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:13:12             I’m thinking, yeah, the Lord’s fulfilling his promises and, you know, the way I didn’t expect, but here it is. Without too much preamble as I was invited to come to BYU for a project with several colleagues. And so kept our house there. In fact, Jen even stayed a semester and continued teaching. She was teaching at BYU Idaho for years. The thought was, okay, we’ll just rent the house for it till we finish this little assignment. Yet, midstream in the assignment here at BYU opportunity an invitation came and here we are to stay. I have this really interesting moment where I’m being hired by BYU permanently to be in Provo. It dawns on me as I’m having communications with some of those that had asked me to come and do this, that this is exactly what the Lord had told me when it was unbelievably impossible to believe that it just was unfathomable that it could happen. Here I am. And so then maybe the kicker to it all was I teach the UNIV 101 class by assignment, Hank you do too and many others. My first section of the UNIV 101 class for the new freshmen in the testing center, I walk, I would literally walk out every day of the testing center, having taught these freshmen and go, God, you are good. You are good. How did you do that? How, in the world did you pull that off-

Hank Smith:                      01:14:43             So not only are you gonna teach here, you’re actually gonna teach right here.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:14:47             Like teach in this very spot.

John Bytheway:               01:14:48             Right here.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:14:48             Like literally, he’s like, I actually fulfill … I don’t let one word fall to the ground without being fulfilled. I’m like, oh my word. Thanks for drawing that out. It is a divine signature. I’m a willing participant, but he did the miracle, as he always does. Maybe as we conclude, I thought of a really cool statement that’s made and it fits, particularly with Moses up on the mountain. This is René Daumal, he’s a French mountaineer and writer. I find it inspiring and descriptive. He says, you can’t stay on the summit forever. And Moses goes up, as we saw in episode one, he has to come back down, innocent. He goes up and down a dozen times, but the people are down, they’re not in, they’re not on the mountain. You can’t farm on the mountain. You gotta farm in the valleys.

                                           01:15:38             But anyway, this French mountain climber said, You can’t stay on the summit forever. You have to come down again. Why bother in the first place? And then he goes, he says this, What is above knows what is below. But what is below does not know what is above. One climbs, one sees, one descends, one sees no longer, but one has seen. Then he said this, There is an art of conducting oneself in the lower regions by the memory of what one saw higher up. When one can no longer see, one can at least still know.

Hank Smith:                      01:16:22             Wow.

John Bytheway:               01:16:24             That’s really profound.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:16:25             I love that Moses and Abraham did the spiritual work to get on the mountaintops, to see things for themselves, but also for us. And to invite us, you too can ascend these mountains. You too are known by name. You too are sons and daughters of heavenly parents and they want the best for you and they have not left anything undone so that you can have it. Bear my witness of gratitude that the Lord is a God of miracles and a God of love and a God of power all in one. In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Hank Smith:                      01:17:01             Amen. Amen. Wow. What a great and noble episode we just had. Yeah. That was wonderful. Phil, thank you for being here.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:17:14             It’s an honor, all mine.

Hank Smith:                      01:17:15             Yeah.

Dr. Philip Allred:              01:17:15             Love what you guys are doing. Thank you. The gift you give us all.

John Bytheway:               01:17:19             Thank you. Hank cast your mind backward. A month or two ago when we got to go to the Church History Library Museum and somebody with white gloves on and allowed us to hold in our hands the manuscript of Moses chapter one. And I was like, Hank, take a picture. ‘Cause this is such a chapter, right?

Hank Smith:                      01:17:46             It’s one of those where you say, if he only just gave us that one, if Joseph only gave us that one, he’s a prophet, and this is one of how many. Beautiful. Phil, thank you. It’s been a wonderful, wonderful day. With that, we want to thank Dr. Phil Allred for being with us today, and we wanna thank Jennifer Allred for letting us borrow him. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. In every episode, we remember our founder. Steve Sorensen, he would, I can just see him, John, he would say, Yeah, baby. We hope you’ll join us next week. We have more of the Old Testament coming up on followHIM. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we’d love to gift you the digital version of our book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episodes. Visit followhim.co, that’s followhim.co to download your free copy today, and you’ll also find the link to purchase the print edition. Thank you for being part of our followHIM family. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith, and Annabelle Sorensen.