Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:00:03             He said that that was the worst thing that could have ever happened, and he got why his mom wanted to support him to do what he wanted because he was doing so much for her, but it turned out to be detrimental.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:19             Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who loves wholesome recreational activities. John, you and your family, you love recreation.

John Bytheway:               00:00:35             Yeah. And look at the word. To recreate. I think it’s a great word.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:40             Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:00:40             We like to recreate.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:42             Recreate family relationships. Right?

John Bytheway:               00:00:45             Yeah, it’s a good way to put it.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:47             John. We are privileged to be joined today by Sister Carol Costley. Carol, welcome to followHIM. Thanks for being here.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:00:54             Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:58             John, when I asked Carol to come on the show, her first response was, I am doubting my abilities, and I said, oh, welcome to the club. You’ll fit right in with John and I. We doubt our abilities frequently. John, we are coming to a close for our Doctrine and Covenants Come, Follow Me year. We’re gonna look at the Proclamation to the World on the Family today. I know you love it. Tell me what thoughts have been on your mind.

John Bytheway:               00:01:24             I didn’t intend for this to be a pun, but my first thought was this really hits home. It affects all of us, and it’s about all of us. It’s so applicable and so important, and it’s not long. It’s some beautiful and some powerful paragraphs. Really hits home.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:43             We are at a special time this year because we hit the 30th anniversary of the proclamation. Time goes by pretty fast. I remember I was in high school. I was just beginning a senior year of high school when this proclamation, President Hinckley read this proclamation, and I remember not being overly shocked by anything in the proclamation and I looked around I think and went, okay, that’s what proclamations are that say things that are obvious to everyone. Since then, the world has changed, and the proclamation has held steady. Carol, as you’ve been preparing for today, what are you hoping to do? Where are we gonna go?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:02:24             What excites me about the Family Proclamation to the World is the privilege, share my testimony and celebrate the power of the doctrine that’s within that. When President Hinckley first read that proclamation, I was listening to the meeting, it deeply resonated with me because it took me back to a time when I was investigating the church in the seventies. I remember hearing marriage is ordained of God and family is central to his plan, and I thought about my family. I had a large family. There were seven kids. That was very unusual for London, where I was born and raised. Really resonated with me, but at the time I was 35 years old. I was single. Yearning to be a wife and a mother. I wanted to be that so bad, but I had watched my twenties go by. I had watched my thirties start slipping by.

                                           00:03:21             I felt little hope that I would find a companion. I often felt invisible. Yet it was in those moments of doubt that I really came to understand. Within that proclamation, there were some things that really stood out, was that heavenly Father and Jesus Christ were aware of me. That knowledge anchored me. I was their child. I was the sister to Jesus Christ. I was a part of a heavenly family. The proclamation then became my compass. It was restorative to me in terms of my confidence and the promises that were made to me in my patriarchal blessing. It was a truly sweet experience. To hear that and to have that confirmed from the pulpit from a prophet of God.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:14             1995, oh, life goes by in a blink. I rarely comment on things like this John, Carol does not look like she could have even been alive in the seventies, let alone been investigating the church. It must have been in the premortal life. She was investigating the church.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:04:34             Well, thank you. Yeah, I was premortal at the time.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:38             Yes. John, tell us about Carol. You and she have worked together before.

John Bytheway:               00:04:44             Yes. Carol Costley was a member of the Young Women General Advisory Council. We’ve explained this before, but they used to call it the General Board. We have a council system in the church, which is beautiful, and I think they got closer to what it really is. The Young Women General Advisory Council, would that have been with Sister Cordon at the time?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:05:05             With Sister Cordon, yes.

Hank Smith:                      00:05:07             Wow.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:05:08             Great experience.

Hank Smith:                      00:05:09             She is our guest next week, so that’s

Sister Carol Costley:        00:05:13             Oh, wonderful.

Hank Smith:                      00:05:13             That’ll be fun.

John Bytheway:               00:05:14             Yeah. We’ll tell her you said hi.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:05:16             Please do.

John Bytheway:               00:05:18             Sister Costley is a wife, mother, grandmother. She’s a grandmother Hank.

Hank Smith:                      00:05:23             No way.

John Bytheway:               00:05:24             Whose faith as a daughter of God guides her life. She has a strong passion for family, enjoys connecting with loved ones around the world. We’ve already heard about London, former member of the General Young Women Advisory Council. She currently works as a therapist specializing in addiction recovery. In her free time she loves to travel, garden, cook, host holiday gatherings and jump on the podcast with John and Hank. That’s our favorite part. Thank you so much for being with us. We did a training together. Where was that out in…

Sister Carol Costley:        00:05:59             Taylorsville. I think it was Taylorsville.

John Bytheway:               00:06:00             Yeah. Yeah, so we go way back, so we’re old friends. The way that you received the proclamation, the way you described that is beautiful. I had been engaged for 22 days when that was given. I got engaged on September 1st of ’95. I was like phew. You said you were into your thirties when you got married. Tell us more about that.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:06:26             I was actually 40 when I got married. Was truly a celebration, not just for me but for my parents. I remember I took my husband Jerry home to meet my parents. They were now living in Florida in Orlando. My dad didn’t even ask a simple question of him. He was just great. Good. I’m happy.

Hank Smith:                      00:06:51             Well. We’re blessed that your story led you here. Let’s read from the Come, Follow Me manual, and then John and I are ready to learn from you. The lesson this week is called, The Family is Central to the Creator’s Plan and the manual starts out like this: Even before we were born, we were part of a family. The family of our heavenly parents. That pattern continues on earth. Families here at their best are meant to echo the perfect pattern in heaven. Of course, there are no guarantees that earthly families will be ideal or even functional, but as President Henry B. Eyring taught, families give God’s children the best chance to be welcomed to the world with the only love on earth that comes close to what we felt in heaven, parental love. Knowing that families are imperfect and subject to attacks from the adversary, God sent his Beloved Son to redeem us and heal our families, and he sent us latter-day prophets with a proclamation to defend and strengthen families. If we follow the prophets and put faith in the Savior, even though mortal families fall short of the divine ideal, there’s hope for families on earth and in heaven. Wonderful. Okay, Carol, where do we wanna go first?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:08:04             A big part of it is just embracing your identity as a child of God. That made the proclamation so much more palatable to me. When I recognized that I was a daughter of God, I needed a proclamation in my life. I realized that I possessed the strength to conquer the fear that I was feeling at that time in my life. I also realized that even though I felt like my life was passing by, that God had a plan for me. Knowing that this family pattern was established before we came here, it really solidified to me that I am a part of this plan. I belong to both a heavenly family and I belong to an earthly family as well. I was surrounded by loving parents. I had siblings and nieces and nephews at the time. I knew that I could invest in those relationships even though I didn’t have a family of my own.

                                           00:09:03             I was a permanent member of my Heavenly Father’s family. Nothing could ever change that. I was cherished by him. I’m cherished by him today. Having that understanding about identity really was foundational for me. As I tried to receive the plan, the Family Proclamation and I tried to receive this plan for living even though I couldn’t see myself having my own family here, I knew that Heavenly Father had a design for my life and I was willing to accept it knowing that I was his daughter, that he would care for me and make sure that I was okay.

John Bytheway:               00:09:45             Beautiful. I love that you’re starting maybe where President Nelson would’ve started. Identity, child of God, child of the covenant, disciple of Christ. Remember Elder Neal A. Maxwell once said, we are not an accidental arrangement of atoms.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:10:04             My hope for those who are listening today is that they’ll feel inspired by the truth. That your unique circumstances are essential part of your personal journey to come to know the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I didn’t really think that a personal journey should be so different than anyone else’s. As I read through the Proclamation that I came to understand, my journey will never look like anyone else’s because it is designed for me. I hope that people feel their journey is designed for them. As a person of color, as I navigated our church world, there were some hurtful things that happened, some things that I felt pain over. The beauty of it was recognizing I was a child of God. He cared about me and that’s what sustained me when things like that happened is to have that firm knowledge that I was his daughter.

                                           00:11:07             I felt a lot of strength from that. None of us are left overlooked. Each of us make courageous and eternally significant choices because we have bodies. We made that choice to come to earth so we have bodies. I am a child of God. I am a child of the covenant and I am his disciple. When President Nelson made those statements, it really echoed in my heart. No one is outside looking in. We are all his spirit children and all essential members of his plan. In my patriarchal blessing, it reminds me that I’m part of this and I do belong. That was also another place where I went to confirm that identity was my patriarchal blessing because it communicated to me where I fit. I hope those listening will understand that no matter what their circumstances are, they fit. I work every day with people who are suffering with addiction and they feel the shame of their habit or their disease. They feel like they don’t fit. I wish many times that I could testify to them of their divine nature. When I have the opportunity to do that, when that’s what someone’s asking for, it changes lives. It helps people.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:35             To know who they are, who you really are. Carol, I recently was asked to come on a sister podcast of ours called The Come Back Podcast with Ashly Stone. They’re doing a great job over there and Ashly said, Hey, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your childhood? So I did. I did not think that it would get the reaction that it did. I had a different childhood than what I thought was a typical Latter-day Saint childhood. We just had a quite a bit of abuse and problems and the police came to our house multiple times. I told some of those stories and I was amazed at how many people sent messages saying, I had a similar childhood. Thank you for validating that. I’m really grateful you started out this way, which is, look, we all want the ideal. Wouldn’t it be great if we all had this really ideal situation and some people have it and you shouldn’t feel bad if you have an an ideal situation.

                                           00:13:35             If you don’t have an ideal situation, the Lord is making something of that. He’s going to use that. I told Ashly about some of the coping strategies that I developed to deal with my childhood home and how those have become both strengths and weaknesses in my adult life. Things I’ve had to learn to manage, get those things to stand down or even use them in my career. I think I can testify to what you’re saying that the Lord designs and allows our lives to play out the way they do for specific reasons. Tailored you said to us.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:14:15             Yeah. What’s really interesting was one of the things that I prayed for more than anything else is to be sealed in the temple. I remember when I was investigating the church, I became interested because of the Osmond family. They did a royal command performance in London. I saw this group of singing boys. They were kind of cute. I just fell in love with how they looked, went on to read articles. In one of the articles it said that they were members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They had eternal families and eternal relationships, and because they were from a large family, I really felt like my family fit and I thought it would be a great way to bring my family together. At the time my father was working in the United States. He had left our home when I was 10 years of age and we were not united as a family until I was 16.

                                           00:15:09             From age 10 to 16, my father worked in the United States. He wanted to move here because he felt like we would have a better life, better opportunity and able to have our kids go to college. All of those things that he wanted for us. He moved here and he had to work and establish himself so he could then send for his family, sent for us in 1976. The reason why I share that story is because I really wanted my family together. I wanted to feel the love and the support of having both parents in the home and to have my father gone it’s very, very difficult. And I remember, especially from my brothers and my one brother would cry himself to sleep at night. He was just a little boy and I remember the difficulty that he had in that struggle missing our dad, they loved us and they thought that this was the best plan for our family was to immigrate to the United States so that we could have more opportunities.

Hank Smith:                      00:16:14             That must have been heart wrenching to have that absence.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:16:18             My mother was a nurse at the time and so she did a lot of shift work. We spent a lot of time with the neighbors when we got home from school and when the older kids came, then us little kids could come home. It was a very difficult time. As we study the Family Proclamation, we need to center our thoughts on Jesus Christ because families are a part of the design and a pattern established before we were born. Because Christ is the heart of the plan, it’s critical that we know who He is and how we can change and grow with his help, especially when we need healing. That time in my life I needed healing and the church fell into my lap. I remember going to my very first meeting, walking around and we met in an old hall. We had to clean out the beer bottles and the cigarettes and everything before we met, so there was that smell of alcoholic beverages that were consumed the night before and the cigarette smoke. That’s where we met and had church. I remember looking around seeing this multicultural crowd sitting learning about Savior, and my heart was so full, I just felt like I was home. I really couldn’t explain why I had that feeling, but I was just 11 years old and I felt like I was home. It was just a sweet experience. Whether a family is in an ideal situation or a family that’s adapting as we strive to follow Jesus Christ, our families can become sanctuaries and places where we can experience growth, healing and lasting joy.

John Bytheway:               00:18:11             I love what you’re saying here. Isn’t it wonderful that the Book of Mormon starts out with a family that really struggled to the point where Lehi has to say, oh, Jacob, my firstborn that I’m sorry about the rudeness of your brother and there’s opposition. You can have a Nephi, you can have a Laman. Was it Elder Stevenson that talked about the photo that’s on Facebook and then you could say, now let me stop and tell the backstory to every one of these and what they’re going through and what their struggles have been and what their crises have been.

Hank Smith:                      00:18:47             In about a month or two, John, we’re gonna be in the book of Genesis. You want to talk about a family that struggles, right? And this is God’s chosen family to bless all the families of the earth and they can’t get their act together. They can’t bless their own family, and yet he’s committed to using them.

John Bytheway:               00:19:02             I love what Carol said there. She found that center of Christ in there. That’s what any struggling family and even families that are doing well, they’re gonna need it someday. We’re all gonna need that. The healing, you called it teaching, preaching, we know that part about Jesus, and healing. A lot of people taught and preached and had philosophies throughout history, but one of ’em was an amazing healer.

Hank Smith:                      00:19:29             Was it President Hunter said, whatever Jesus lays his hands upon will live. Let him lay his hands on your family. It will live. Carol, I’d be interested to hear just a little bit more of your background. How did London become to United States to Utah?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:19:47             My parents were born in Jamaica. At the time that they were living there, it was very difficult to find employment. Jamaica was British rule and there was a lot of people that came from a lot of the Caribbean islands to England and there was a place in Essex where there was a house that a lot of the Jamaicans would go and they would try and find work and I remember my mom’s sister came first and she was working as a seamstress in a factory and my mom came over to England to do that same work. Then ended up going to school and becoming a nurse by working at this job and getting the money to do that. She did secretarial first and after secretarial she became a nurse. Coming to England just seemed like it was great chance to change lives and that’s when my parents met.

                                           00:20:45             They met in this apartment house where they were staying and married and my sister was born. Dad had four children that he left in Jamaica. We were not raised with all of my siblings, so they were my half siblings. Two of those half siblings came to live with us. After we got established in England, there were seven kids in that family. Later on I met my other two siblings, so our family situation was not ideal either. There were a lot of struggles and challenges that my parents faced when we were in England in bringing two new children into a family of five children who were already established as siblings. We had some challenges with children feeling like they didn’t fit or that they missed their birth moms that were in another country, and so we had some challenges around those trying to help those kids feel like they belonged in our family.

                                           00:21:51             I felt like my mom did a terrific job as she tried to work with those children and that’s how we started. And then my father had a trip to America, ended up working in engineering firm that they would service the huge heating systems that were part of those big skyscrapers and they were trying to figure out a part or a piece of equipment to fix this one boiler and my dad was able to create that piece and they offered him a job. That’s how I understand he got a job working for this firm and then came home and told my mom that he was moving to the United States. She was not very happy about it, but went through with him doing that. That was a challenge for our family when my dad moved. Goal was to bring us there with him at some point, but it took six years for us to be back together again.

Hank Smith:                      00:22:51             What happened in New York? Tell us a little bit about that. How old were you?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:22:55             I was 16, so not a great time to move. I remember going to high school and I had to take the bus in, remember trying to get on the bus. I was trying to get the coinage right to drop in the fair and I had to come up with 35 cents. It wasn’t making sense to me. I had to flip the coin over to look to see what the amount was. I remember I was taking a very long time and the bus driver looked at me and he says, what are you some kind of idiot? I was, I’m just not from your country. There were a lot of things that were new to me that I didn’t understand. Every morning now I counted out 35 cents before I got on that bus. And New York when I went to high school, I don’t think that the kids had ever heard a person with an English accent who was Black.

                                           00:23:53             I will never forget I was walking down the hall, how we say excuse me, we don’t say, excuse me in England, we say, I beg your pardon, at the time. And so I said to this one girl, beg your pardon, could you tell me where room such and such is? And she looked at me and she goes, girl, what is your problem? And I was like, um, I just need to find the room. And she just looked at me and thought I was putting on airs or acting or that wasn’t my real voice. So I got a lot of harassment from the kids and I remember walking home from school with a group of kids following behind me threatening to beat me up. This happened for about six months. Finally, one day, they were calling me names saying that they were gonna beat me up, so I stopped, dropped my backpack on the floor and I said, okay, let’s go.

                                           00:24:51             And they all ran away and I thought, why didn’t I do that six months ago? After I did that, they stopped bothering me and didn’t follow me home anymore and I started making friends and I think I joined the all culture club and it represented 70 different countries that kids had come from. I got involved in the drama club and I think that I finally found a place to be. I was desperate for Sundays and weekdays when I could go to the youth program, desperate for Sundays. I would count the day to Sunday so I could go to church and be with my friends. They were my lifeline. That ward embraced me, my siblings, we just loved it there. I came alive. I was me when I was in that ward. I made some dear friends and we’re still friends to this day. The Watkins family used to take me to church every Sunday and every activity.

                                           00:25:53             I don’t think that we ever missed a Sunday. They were diligent in their efforts bringing my sister and I on board. It was because of that that my testimony strengthened. I still go to lunch once a year with Allison in January. She was one of the kids that was closest to my age. I always remind her that if it were not for them, I just don’t think I would be here. I really don’t think that I would’ve survived without the gospel of Jesus Christ. If you don’t have a family, sometimes your ward family can be that family, can be that example, can offer you the healing and the comfort that you need when times are hard. It was a joy being in that ward. It was the Westchester Ward. I still have a picture of my youth group in my office that I wish I would’ve brought today because we had some incredible youth in that ward that helped me to feel like I belonged to God’s family.

Hank Smith:                      00:27:00             That’s how it’s designed to be, isn’t it? Wow.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:27:03             It is. All wards should be like this ward that I experienced as a youth.

John Bytheway:               00:27:08             Isn’t it amazing how three hours or however many on a Sunday can help you get through the other 140 or whatever?

Hank Smith:                      00:27:18             Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:27:19             Knowing that’s coming and being with those people, that core ward family, that’s beautiful and a little heartbreaking to hear of your…

Hank Smith:                      00:27:28             Yeah, man.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:27:30             As I look back on it, there is something that is really special and sacred about that time because that was the time that brought me closer to Jesus Christ. That’s what makes it sacred and I hear people talking about their missions all the time. It was on my mission that I came to know Jesus Christ. Well, it was in this Westchester Ward that I came to know Jesus Christ and his personal love and desire for me to succeed. Doors were opened, people were kind. I was able to work a job, babysit, make money and really have an experience that, I learned and watched families have family home evening and different things that my family were not having and sometimes I got to participate in those experiences. Had friends and I would go spend the night at their house and really have a good time. I really felt like the youth, all of them were an integral part of my life and what I was able to become. Cool thing was is that some of their families too were not perfect and were going through struggles and having hard times while others had what appeared to be the ideal situation.

                                           00:28:48             What I would ask for those families who have the ideal situation is to have sensitivity and seek to understand what other people are going through and validate that and not act like it’s something that’s peculiar or not true because it didn’t happen for you. That was something that was really sweet about this ward was that they were so accepting and embraced my sister and I, and I know that my accent probably had a good deal to do with it. We were quite the novelty at the time, but it was a very sweet experience to have that ward family really embrace us and take us under their wings. It was very, very special. Very special experience. I would never change it for the world. I think that my parents as parents didn’t anticipate some of the challenges that we were going to encounter. My parents were driven by the deep love for us and they wanted to move us to another country.

                                           00:29:52             However, they were not aware of some of the challenges that were in the community that they moved us to. The community that we moved in had a high rate of drug abuse, which I don’t think that they had looked into or found out about. It was a place that we could afford at the time because our money was tied up in another country and you just can’t take large sums of money out of the country like that. Our money was tied up, so it was difficult for us. We lived in this little apartment building. We had a beautiful home in London that was all left behind. How people saw us was not what we were used to. They saw us as a family that was struggling and that didn’t have much in terms of material goods. Where in London we were a lot better off and so I was so confused about why my parents wanted to move here, but they did their best and the one thing that I knew about my parents, which is why I love to always start reading the Book of Mormon, is when Nephi says, I was born of goodly parents and I really felt like I was born of goodly parents and that they loved me and that they tried their very best with what they had.

                                           00:31:01             A blessing that I got in my life was having an understanding that my parents against the odds raised us and raised us well. They had struggled in Jamaica and came to the United States and did whatever they could to do the best for us and that was the love that I felt. So in many ways I felt like I was in an ideal situation because I felt love and I felt support even though sometimes the way that my dad would handle things were not always the greatest. He had some habits that made me really sad and one was drinking. He would on the weekends drink. He wasn’t always in a good frame of mind. That was very, very difficult to watch my dad succumb to drink and I think that that was his way of coping and dealing with some of the challenges that we were facing as a family.

Hank Smith:                      00:31:58             And now you work with those in addiction.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:32:02             I do, and I see some of those challenges and this morning as I was doing a group, we were talking about some of the challenges, some of the shame, some of the guilt that they feel. One of the things that they feel is not being validated, having their circumstances overlooked and not being validated and not getting a second chance once they recover. That is a very big challenge for them. I remember feeling a great deal of compassion for my father as a young girl. I will say I did pour his vodka in the toilet a few times and then played dumb for fear that I’d be killed. I did do that a few times in the hopes that he would quit and he did eventually quit. I think that it was my involvement in the church that fascinated both my parents because they could see how it changed me and my favorite was when my parents sent my little sister who was not a member to BYU.

                                           00:33:08             They made her move from University of Massachusetts to BYU because they felt like it would be a better option for her, and she did move to Utah. She was baptized. Unfortunately died prematurely while she was in school after experiencing a toxic reaction to medication that she was on and passed away. That was another challenge for our family. When I got the call from the hospital, I remember calling my mother and saying, Pauline is in trouble. She’s at the hospital. She was driving in her car and the people behind her said that she clutched her chest and then she was at a traffic light and she was driving in her car. She clutched her chest and fell forward over the steering wheel, so they called 911 and they took her to the hospital. By the time I got there that evening, I found her to be in a very bad situation.

                                           00:34:11             I felt like she had gone without oxygen for a while because I could see signs of brain damage. It was devastating and I remember my family all flew in from London and my parents were in Florida at the time to be by her side, things were gonna change for her. We could tell just by looking at her, we knew that the brain damage was pretty significant. I remember saying to my parents, I’ll take care of her. I’ll have her move in with me. I’ll take care of her. The night that my parents left she passed. I always thought that she didn’t wanna pass because my parents were there and when they flew home that night she passed. And it was a priesthood blessing that she received and I remember thinking that she was not gonna make it even though she had the blessing and I remember those that were giving her the blessing stood back and shook their head. We all knew at that moment that it was her time.

Hank Smith:                      00:35:18             Oh wow.

John Bytheway:               00:35:19             Everyone’s story is so different. You’re so full of faith having gone through all of this.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:35:26             When she passed, we were able to do her work. This is why the Family Proclamation has so much significance for my family because we’ve been able to do the work now for my grandparents, at least my grandmother’s, still trying to figure out my grandfathers, but we did the work for my grandfathers and I have two brothers that we are working on doing the work for right now who recently passed as well. It is a document that really inspires me to advocate and defend the family because this is where the nurturing comes, the love comes for many of us. There’s always one person when I’m interviewing a client that’s coming in for treatment, we do a social assessment and there is always one family member that they talk about that was their lifeline, that was a person that supported and loved them through a particular situation.

                                           00:36:28             A family is the ideal unit for people to feel that love that they felt in the premortal existence from our heavenly parents. Without a doubt, there is always one person and often it’s a grandmother or a single mother or an aunt, whatever our role is in a family, we can have a significant impact on a member. It doesn’t matter if it’s an ideal situation. The family unit is a pattern that was established before and even if one person keeps that promise or that lifeline with another person, healing can come from those relationships. Like I said, many of my clients, they talk about the one person in their family unit that helped pull them through.

Hank Smith:                      00:37:22             Hmm, Carol, wow, you tell us that not all families are the same, and then you tell us your extraordinary story. I think we have many listeners who will say, oh, she gets it. She gets not having the ideal situation.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:37:43             I highlighted that very first paragraph that says, we the First Presidency, the Council of the Twelve Apostles of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints solemnly proclaim that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God and that the family is central to the creator’s plan for the eternal destiny of his children. I love that promise. I love it with all my heart. It lets me know the family that I was born into was my avenue of getting toward the Savior.

John Bytheway:               00:38:17             I remember back in 2017, then Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk called the Plan and the Proclamation. He talked about this. My sense was every word of this, every syllable has been prayed over and pondered. This rises to the level of like a section of the Doctrine and Covenants. When you read it slowly, solemnly proclaim marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. You read it slowly. This is powerful stuff.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:52             Just this last general conference, this is Elder Rasband. When I was called to the holy apostleship in 2015, I was advised, it’s in quotations, but he doesn’t tell us where it comes from. This proclamation is now yours, your name, and then he says pointing to the words Council of the Twelve Apostles is right here. Feel it and teach it like you own it.

John Bytheway:               00:39:21             Here’s part of that talk that Elder Dallin H. Oaks gave in October 2017. We felt confirmation and we went to work about this idea for the Proclamation to the World and the Family. He said subjects were identified and discussed by members of the Quorum of the Twelve for nearly a year, language was proposed, reviewed and revised prayerfully. We continually pleaded with the Lord for his inspiration on what we should say and how we should say it. We all learned line upon line, precept upon precept as the Lord has promised. These words are important, the order in which they come is important, and I love the solemnity that that comes with in that first paragraph.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:40:09             I wanna read part of a quote that Dallin H. Oaks from the Quorum of the Twelve said. Parentage defines our eternal potential. That powerful idea is a potent antidepressant. It can strengthen each of us to make righteous choices and to seek the best that is within us. Establish in the mind of a person the powerful idea that he or she is a child of God and you have given self-respect and motivation to move against the problems of life. When I think about the Family Proclamation and it talks about marriage being ordained of God, what incredible things can come from that union because of the power that we have to make changes and to motivate our families to help and serve and support them, to teach them. I love the whole idea of the sanctity of a union between a husband and a wife. It is so diminished these days. In Europe so many people live together. I know my family back in England, a lot of them live together. It makes me really nervous for them and for their young families. I love that this is supporting marriage between a man and a woman. How it is a safety net for the children that are born in that union in terms of love and support and their ability to thrive.

Hank Smith:                      00:41:42             In fact, later, doesn’t the Proclamation say children are entitled. That’s not a word you get from the church very often. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. When do you ever really hear that word someone is entitled to something.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:42:06             Very rarely, and so it must be important if it’s an entitlement for our children.

Hank Smith:                      00:42:12             Carol, I know we want to keep going on the Proclamation here, but I’m interested in your work as a counselor. What effect the family has on a person with an addiction, a problem like that. What have you seen?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:42:29             When they’re in a situation that’s more ideal and fits with the traditional dynamic that we’re talking about here it is one of the most significant and impactful sources of support that a person can have that a family really can be the change agent that that person needs. However, when the family is dysfunctional and there are no individuals that can be identified to offer this child support, then often they derail. They gravitate to tools that are not effective, that are not helpful. They want to drown out their experiences. Sometimes families even use the drugs, introduce their children to the drugs. I’ve had many situations where people have said, for my 16th birthday, my father took me out and got me some marijuana and we smoked together. I’ve had people say, my parents said that they would rather that I get high and use drugs in their home so that they can keep me safe.

                                           00:43:52             Ironically, the safety is not from an external predator. The safety is keeping your child safe from that internal addiction that happens when their lives fall apart and they start overusing that substance. There is an actual physical addiction that comes, that safety that they think that they’re providing for the child is false because the problem is the actual drug, so I think that that’s what can happen when things go awry or even when we use our agency to make choices that hurt our families. There’s infidelity. There’s all kinds of things. Later I have a story from a great friend of mine who went through a situation with infidelity with her husband and him stepping outside of their marriage and the damage that it did. Her family started off in an ideal setting where they met, they fell in love. They got married in the temple and then things fell apart after 28 years. Later on in the Proclamation it actually mentions here the fidelity and the importance of that union.

                                           00:45:04             Our agency can sometimes disrupt lives in ways that we never thought possible. Bringing emotional insecurity and anxiety to our children when we do things that step outside of the bounds of that union that can break hearts and cause significant harm. How we use our agency is critical. We’re created in the image of God. We are each beloved spirit sons and daughters of heavenly parents. As such, each of us have a divine nature and destiny and that destiny is eternal. It calls to mind a time that I was working on the Young Women’s Advisory Council. We were given the charge to create a new theme. All of us concluded that we wanted the acknowledgement of having heavenly parents. We felt like it was really important for this generation to recognize that they had heavenly parents. If they could understand that identity, then they would have the potential to overcome a lot that might ail them in this life. We really felt like that was an important part of that and as we prayed about it, we felt very strongly that that needed to be a part of that theme for the young women of the church to recognize that they are created in the image of Heavenly Father, that they had parents in the premortal life that love them and cherish them.

John Bytheway:               00:46:38             Carol, why don’t you say that first line of the Young Women theme.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:46:44             I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny.

John Bytheway:               00:46:50             Yeah, there it is right there.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:46:52             That is key to who we are and to what we can become.

John Bytheway:               00:46:58             I love them both. I love the Aaronic Priesthood Quorum theme. I’m a beloved son of God and he has a work for me to do. It is so empowering. It’s not I’m a beloved son of God and he is wondering if I might make any contribution at some point, but it’s, I’m a beloved son of God and he has a work for me to do. That’s huge. I’m a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny. I love our youth, I love my kids who have recited these and sometimes don’t we all watch them and say, is this going inside? Are you hearing how empowering this is? When you say those words?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:47:40             It actually goes inside and I can attest for that with my own children, hearing them recite a theme that I was a part of. I remember the very first time when I stood in my ward and I heard the young women recite that theme, knowing some of the struggles and some of the situations that they have come from and that they were in, including my own daughter. I knew that the theme was inspired and I knew that God worked through us to develop this theme and I can take no credit for it because I had beautiful sisters working alongside of me as well, helping with that. I really feel like this was the message that the Lord needed the youth to hear. President Nelson has also shared this message, not just with the youth but with the young adults as well. It’s pretty incredible that this is repeating itself so frequently for our youth today, and I often looked at the proclamation and thought that this was for the women and the men of the church, but it really is for everybody to understand and to know and to implement in their lives.

Hank Smith:                      00:48:55             Carol, you talk about those you work with and how their situation can either really be a blessing to them or really, really harm them. There’s an old talk that I like to read. It’s called Jesus the Perfect Leader by Spencer W. Kimball. It’s not very long, but I’ve always remembered this piece. I think you show this kind of compassion because you work with those who are struggling with addiction. This is what President Kimball said. Jesus saw sin as wrong, but also was able to see sin as springing from deep and unmet needs on the part of the sinner. Oftentimes we see sin and we think, oh, that’s terrible. How could they do that? And here President Kimball says no. Jesus saw deep and unmet needs on the part of the sinner. Carol, that seems to be similar to what you were saying. There’s a lot going on in this person’s life.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:50:02             There is an awful lot going on in most of our lives and there are things that we don’t see. I tell you that I was talking to a young man one time. He had mentioned that growing up he was raised by a single mother and she did the best that she could. One of the challenges that he experienced with his mom was that her reward for him because he watched the kids, he did a lot of the house cleaning, while she was at work and when she came home, he had free reign to do whatever he wanted. He talked about the fact that having that free reign to do whatever I wanted was something that was harmful to me in the long run because she was so appreciative of what I was doing at home that she gave me latitude to come and go as I pleased and wasn’t always worried about where I was because I was doing so well in other aspects, not understanding or realizing some of the dangers that he was facing on the outside.

                                           00:51:07             He said, I wish there were times that my mother would say no. I remember having this conversation with my children that if they were ever in a situation where they felt uncomfortable or they needed to get out of, they can call me on the phone and I will tell them no, that they have to come home. I’ve had my kids do that a couple of times where they’ve called me and I’ve said, no, this is your mom. You have to come home and I have been an escape for them to come home. It’s really important that we recognize as parents, and this is something that my parents didn’t recognize. They didn’t have an understanding of what was happening. There is a book by a Chinese general. His name was Sun Tzu and it’s the Art of War. He talks about how important it is to know your enemy.

                                           00:52:04             A lot of times we don’t wanna talk about Satan. We don’t want to talk about some of the behaviors or the tricks that he can get up to, but I think our kids need to be wise to that. What protects them is also having a knowledge of what the enemy could potentially do to derail them. I think that we recognize as part of this proclamation that not everybody has an ideal situation. There are things that can happen that can derail them. I love the way that President Kimball talks about it because it really isn’t something that this young man understood that would be detrimental to him in the future. He didn’t understand the impact of the drugs and the alcohol and how it would change the trajectory of his life. Instead, he thought, I’ve got this freedom, but looking back as an adult, he said that that was the worst thing that could have ever happened, and he got why his mom wanted to support him to do what he wanted because he was doing so much for her, but it turned out to be detrimental. As parents we really need to have the big picture. This is what the proclamation is teaching us. We need to have the big picture. We need to know the ideal, but we also need to know what Satan can do to thwart the ideal.

Hank Smith:                      00:53:28             John, I’m guessing you thought of the same thing I did. If we want our children to know the tactics of the adversary, we just need to read the Book of Mormon. They are laid out. If we’ll just study, study them. There’s seven or eight what you would call antichrists or apostates in the Book of Mormon. Walk through those, each one of those. In my classes, I call it the Antichrist simulator. You can face an antichrist or the adversary right there in the Book of Mormon over and over as many times as you want, and then when you meet it in real life, it’s not that difficult. You’ve seen it before, yet we don’t take advantage of it as parents, of the Book of Mormon like we could.

John Bytheway:               00:54:13             I like to ask my students, why in the world would we give precious space on plates to Korihor? And it takes them a minute until they go, oh, so that we’ll know the tactics of the adversary. Oh, and we’ll recognize it. The arguments are not new. They have new sophisticated sounding names today or words. It’s the same thing. President Benson used that phrase about one of the purposes of the Book of Mormon. He gave a list of them and one of them was it exposes the enemies of Christ. Hank finish that sentence for me.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:58             Well, I, it’s kind of embarrassing that I know this one so well. The Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrine. It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates found in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God with his infinite foreknowledge so molded the Book of Mormon so that we might know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time. That’s a great one.

John Bytheway:               00:55:31             Woo. Nice one.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:55:33             That was fantastic. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:35             You can do this Carol and John. You can look at Sherem and Nehor and Amlici and Korihor and Amalickiah and Giddianhi and the Gadianton Robbers and you can lay out the tactics of the adversary. Carol, I think you’re right. Why don’t we talk about what they’re going to face?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:55:57             I think that people have a fear that if we know about those tactics, we’ll either get involved in those tactics ourselves or that it’s not uplifting, that it doesn’t bring the spirit that we want. I think that there are a lot of reasons why parents sometimes gloss over that or read it, but really don’t say this is a tactic that Satan will use. Sometimes we think, oh, our children are too young, or we might scare them, or we just wanna present what we feel is palatable. You know? That won’t frighten them. I had an experience, I’ve shared this story before, with my daughter. I got really upset with her over something. I can’t even remember why, but she was pretty little. She was probably about three because I can see her face still. I probably had been doing something and she probably messed it up and probably made me really mad. I lost my temper. I was ugly, and I could tell by the look on her face that it was not a familiar face and it scared her. When I saw the look on her face, it jolted me back to reality to realize that I needed to talk to her about what had happened and I went in and I said, Emma, I am so, so sorry, and I tried to explain why I was frustrated. She looks at me and she goes, that’s okay, mommy. I knew Satan had you.

Hank Smith:                      00:57:26             Wow.

Sister Carol Costley:        00:57:28             I was hurt by her comment that she thought that I was Satan in that moment and I tried really hard moving forward not to go to that place and to really take a time out before I lost my temper again, we laugh about it now, but I really feel like I lost control. She equated me to Satan and it was because we had told her about Satan and some of the things that he did. I think that our kids really understand and can learn and know even from a young age. I was quite taken back by the comment, but that let me know that she was aware that there was good and that there were things that were not so good, that were evil. I think that we really need to teach the children so they really know how to manage his behavior when it’s presented to them. They will face it. They will face some of his strategies. Some of them seem so benign, but they’re not.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:38             Yeah. Carol, you’re so right. If anybody listening just takes away that one teaching from you, that one principle. I think we’ve been well served. We’ve had you for a while now and we’ve only been through a couple of paragraphs here. Do you wanna jump back in?

Sister Carol Costley:        00:58:53             Yes. Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose. With the gender confusion that we’re having right now, I think that it’s important that this is reaffirmed that gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal and eternal identity and purpose. It’s important for that to be stated. In the premortal realm spirit sons and daughters knew and worshiped God as their Eternal Father and accepted His plan, which his children could obtain a physical body and gain earthly experiences to progress towards perfection and ultimately realize their divine destiny as heirs of eternal family life. Knowing those things about our gender, that it was assigned before we came, that it is a part of God’s plan and that we came here to obtain this physical body. It is through this body and through the work that we’re gonna do here on this earth that we will return to our Father in heaven.

                                           01:00:03             This is actually a plan of happiness. It’s not a plan of sadness, it is a plan of happiness. I’m so disappointed that many people look at this proclamation as a plan of sadness because it is not unfolding in a way that they would like it to unfold. That’s what makes it a struggle and I wish that we could gain a testimony of the beauty of this plan and the happiness that it will and does bring when we work towards achieving the ideal. I like it because it says that we are working toward perfection and that that’s probably not gonna happen here and to take comfort in that.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:49             Elder Rasband, like you did, just said, Carol, he was bold and so sensitive when he talked about this in the last general conference. He says, some of you may reflect on the proclamation and say, this isn’t working for me. I don’t fit. For those with concerns, instead of blasting someone, he said, you are a child of heavenly parents, part of your heavenly Father’s family. No one knows you better or cares more deeply about you than he does. Turn to Him. Pour out your heart to Him, trust Him and His promises. You have family in your Savior, Jesus Christ who loves you. He came to earth to atone for our sins and bear the burden of our mistakes and our very bad days. He understands what you are facing and feeling. Turn to Him. Trust He will send the Holy Ghost to be with you, to lift you and guide you. Carol, I can’t think of anyone in their career more than you who empathizes with someone who feels like they don’t fit. Yet at the same time, we can be bold and say, you do fit. You don’t have to listen to all the voices telling you that you have to do this or that or you can find your own truth. No, there is truth right over here.

Sister Carol Costley:        01:02:18             I like the concept of truth in terms of this proclamation and the plan of happiness because it is based on a foundation of truth. The divine plan of happiness enables family relationships to be perpetuated beyond the grave. This is the unit that heavenly Father has established for us to get back to him. We are advised to defend it and just because my unit doesn’t look exactly like that’s being described in the proclamation, it doesn’t matter because that is where the Savior comes in. That is where the healing comes or the redirection comes or how you can rely on Him to help you make those course corrections that will bring you closer to Him. Sacred ordinances and covenants are available in holy temples that make it possible for the individual to return to his presence. There are tools for us that will aid us to help return to His presence.

                                           01:03:16             The perfection piece was never meant for this world. There is a scripture in Moses where God is talking to Moses. He tells Moses that he is His son. Then later on Satan comes, refers to him as the son of man. Moses questions him and he says, no, I’ve been told that I am the son of God, and then goes on to look at Satan and go, well wait a minute. I can actually see you and talk to you. You are not a God for me to worship because he wants to be worshiped by Moses. And he said, wait a minute. When I was with God, I had to go through some type of transformation to even be in his presence, otherwise I would’ve not been here. Where is your glory that I should worship you? It was really interesting.

                                           01:04:11             I loved that they brought this out and I think it was Elder Rasband who had a talk. Moses, My Son, I think quite a ways back, I think in 2010, where he talks about this experience that Moses had with God, and then how Satan tried to come in and thwart that. Having the knowledge of who we are, the knowledge of our agenda, the knowledge of the sanctity of marriage and parenthood and how children are entitled to be born within that covenant, I think is really important for us to know as the children, also, as future husbands and wives and parents. It’s critical for us to know this doctrine so that we can perpetuate it and defend it because it’s not popular. It’s important for us to share what we know in a kind and respectful way as Elder Rasband talked about.