Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:00:03             I had childhood anxiety. I really did. I probably seemed strange to many, but feeling as a kid, I wish someone could just understand how I felt. This tells us that the Lord understands our hearts. He knows what we’re dealing with. For anyone going through any trial, that is such a comfort. I think that’s a real comfort to know that we have a tender Father in heaven and his Son, Jesus Christ, who look at our hearts.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:37             Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I’m your host. I’m here with John Bytheway, who is a faithful elder of this dispensation. John, that is section 138 verse 57. When I read that, I thought, that’s my friend John Bytheway.

John Bytheway:               00:00:55             Hmm. Let me pause for a second and go do some ministering. I’ll be right back.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:00             John.

John Bytheway:               00:01:01             Try to live up to that.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:02             You don’t want to hear the next part. The faithful elders of this dispensation when they depart from this mortal life. Then again, that’s not John.

John Bytheway:               00:01:10             Yeah, I’m getting older every day.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:12             Getting closer to that verse, John, we are honored today to have with us our friend, Dr. Lori Wilkinson. Lori, welcome to followHIM.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:01:22             Thank you so much for having me. I’m so excited. Hank, I’m here.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:26             Yes, John, just so you know, I have been working on Lori for a long time thing. You need to be on this show. Hank I’m busy. I know you’re busy and you need to be on this show. You’re gonna bless a lot of lives. We finally got her in studio. John we’re in sections 137 and 138. These are the only two sections that are almost 80 years apart. We haven’t had any space like that between sections. You know what both of these are about, John, so tell me what you’ve been thinking of.

John Bytheway:               00:01:58             One of my favorite phrases in all of scripture that is uniquely us is our glorious Mother Eve. I’m looking forward to talking about that today.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:02:13             I am too.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:14             That is awesome. There’s another one, John, that I love that’s uniquely us. The dead who repent will be redeemed.

John Bytheway:               00:02:23             You mean that’s possible?

Hank Smith:                      00:02:23             Yeah, right. Lori, we’ve been talking about this for months now. What are we gonna do today? Where do you want to take us?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:02:32             I am going to share some on the ground experiences as a Relief Society president, what I’m seeing in the hearts and minds of women that I’m serving with and serving. So I’m a historian, so I like to share context, and I think you have to understand the context of these sections to truly see that they are the salve for broken hearts for anyone out there who has lost loved ones or who have children or other loved ones who are choosing a different path than the gospel path. These sections are meant for you to comfort your heart and to bring lively hope. We’re also gonna talk a little bit about first epistle of Peter. I’m excited to delve into both of these sections. It’s gonna be a lot of fun.

Hank Smith:                      00:03:25             Okay. Wow, what a great introduction. One of my favorite parts of this show is taking someone I know well, like Lori and introducing her to a couple of people, the followHIM audience. I don’t know how many there are out there, but we’ve heard from quite a few. John, we love our listeners and I appreciate Lori so much and her work and her faithfulness, her expertise. FollowHIM audience out there, I want to introduce you to Lori Wilkinson. John, do we know anything about her though? Did we do a background check? What do we know?

John Bytheway:               00:03:59             Dr. Lori Motzkus Wilkinson is a historian specializing in Latter-day Saint Women’s history, and she teaches Utah History and US History at Salt Lake Community College. She has a book coming up soon, Sacred Pens and Public Voices, Latter-day Saint Women in Dialogue with America, which is actually University of Illinois Press. So you know she is a scholar and a historian. This book explores how LDS women demonstrated themselves to be both believers and defenders of their faith, even while engaging in broader conversations with prominent national women over time. I love that background. It makes me really look forward to this today. So welcome, Lori. Thank you for coming.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:04:45             Thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to be here. This is really an honor. I’m tickled pink. Thanks.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:51             And John, we also need to thank Diana Condie and Lisa Motzkus because they encouraged Lori to take me up on this invitation. Lori, Diana, and Lisa. Is that right?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:05:01             That’s right. They listen every week. Number one fans

Hank Smith:                      00:05:05             Well, Diana and Lisa, we owe you and our audience owes you for pushing Lori in the door. All right, I’m gonna read from the Come, Follow Me manual. I’m excited to let Lori guide us through this. It starts this way. The revelations recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 137 and 138 are separated by more than 80 years and 1500 miles. Section 137 was received by the prophet Joseph Smith in 1836 in the Kirtland Temple and Section 138 was received by Joseph F. Smith sixth President of the Church in 1918 in Salt Lake City. But doctrinally, these two visions belong side by side. They both answer questions that many people, including God’s prophets have about life after death. Joseph Smith wondered about the fate of his brother Alvin, who had died without being baptized. Joseph F. Smith, who had lost both of his parents and 13 children to untimely deaths thought often about the Spirit World and wondered about the preaching of the gospel there. Section 137 casts some initial light on the destiny of God’s children in the next life, and Section 138 opens the curtains even wider. Together, both revelations testify of the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son. How beautiful. Lori, with that, how do you wanna start?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:06:30             I think these two sections do show us what a loving Father in heaven we have. The plan he’s put in place is so beautiful. I feel so privileged being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because we have this knowledge. I know that women around me, both in the church and women outside of the church that I talk to wonder these things with the loss of loved ones. I just wanna start off by telling you a little bit about this past year for me as the Relief Society President, I’ve been in for a little bit over a year in my East Millcreek Ward, my presidency made the goal to go and visit all of the women in their homes. We’re still working on it, but these visits have become a treasure to my soul. I’ve learned so much from these women.

                                           00:07:18             They have so much wisdom. It’s really been a blessing to be in their homes. I’ve learned through these visits that there are prominent concerns on a lot of women’s minds. I would say the number one thing I hear is loneliness. Next to that and the two that we’ll be talking about today are concern for loved ones or children who are making decisions that are really taking them away from the gospel and it weighs heavy on them. This is something deeply felt that is on their mind, frequently causes a lot of anguish. I sense it in these visits that I’ve had. I also have sensed in these visits real mourning. We’ve had four tragic deaths within a short period of time in my ward. Well, I’ve been in the homes of these women and I hear the pain in their voices with this separation from their loved ones, and interestingly as all this has been going on, I’ve been studying these sections that has been such a blessing.

                                           00:08:31             I’ve told many of these women, go read these sections. They will provide comfort to you in the struggles and heartache that you’re having. This is the great problem that all humans face at some point, the separation of a loved one. This is really painful. It is a disruption to our relationships that we treasure the most. As I’ve pondered this heartbreak, these two sections, Doctrine and Covenants 137 and 138 along with the first epistle of Peter has brought great comfort manifested to me that our Father in heaven loves his children. We are so lucky to have this knowledge. I wanna help explore that today. Having all that on my mind, this all happened in the summer, these four deaths. While preparing for this podcast, one night a line stood out to me so clearly. I had decided to read the first epistle of Peter because when we get to section 138, that’s what Joseph F. Smith is reading and I sat down and read these lines.

                                           00:09:40             They spoke to me, the Spirit spoke to me. This is Peter. He’s writing to the Christians in parts of Asia, kind of northern Turkey area. He’s writing to them because they are suffering, they are struggling, they’re being persecuted. Some are in exile. I wanna start in chapter one verses three through five. In verse three, we read, blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope. We’re gonna come back to that a bunch today. A lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. Verse four, to an inheritance incorruptible, that stood out to me, an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that fadeth not away reserved in heaven for you. Then in verse five, who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time.

                                           00:10:57             Now, we would normally think of the reference the last time as Second Coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I wonder if we could also think of the last time as the last dispensation and what is going to be revealed to our Prophet Joseph Smith and our Prophet Joseph F. Smith as a tender, tender way of looking at an inheritance incorruptible and especially that lively hope that it gives to us. Our Savior and Peter and Paul discuss an incorruptible inheritance. Joseph Smith will have to restore that knowledge. We’ll talk about what happens when it’s lost over the centuries. That is not my expertise, but I will briefly cover a little bit of that. What a blessing that Joseph Smith restores this knowledge that Peter had and Paul had and then adds to it, and Joseph F. Smith, his nephew, the son of Hyrum and Mary Fielding will add even more to this idea of a lively hope in an incorruptible inheritance.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:13             That phrase lively hope. I wrote a paper once, it was on Joseph Smith at a funeral said, we mourn the loss but we do not mourn as those without hope. It sounds very similar. We do mourn. We mourn in a different way because of the information in these sections.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:12:35             Yes, we’re so truly lucky to have this information. I’m not just saying that. I feel like as I’ve been studying them, helping these women in these various situations, it truly is the greatest blessing to have this information to help with their broken hearts. I think it can help. Some basic context about Section 137 and 138. They’re not canonized until 1976. At first they are put in the Pearl of Great Price. Then in 1979 when they announced that they’re coming out with a new edition of the LDS scriptures, they say they are going to put them into the Doctrine and Covenants and they do. Section 137 is a record of a vision that happened January 21st, 1836 in the Kirtland Temple before it was dedicated and what a vision it was. It happened in the west end of the temple’s upper story, the Kirtland Temple is a special place in my heart and in my family’s heart.

                                           00:13:40             My mother and father Joan Motzkus and Bob Motzkus were mission presidents of the Cleveland Ohio mission. Kirtland was in their mission from 2003 to 2006. I was able to go back to Kirtland with my little babies, have an amazing tour of Kirtland from the famous historian Karl Ricks Anderson that was a long time historian of Kirtland and got a personal tour by him even though I was younger and I hadn’t had as much church history at that point years ago, I felt how special the Kirtland temple was, so I just had to throw that in there. They are in the west end of the temple’s upper story, he’s in the temple with his father, Joseph Smith Sr. He’s in there with the First Presidency of the church in Missouri, the bishoprics in Kirtland and Missouri and his scribe Warren Parish who recorded the vision and originally the vision is recorded in third person then is put into first person when it goes into our scriptures.

                                           00:14:49             The occasion was the administration of the ordinances in preparation for the temple dedication. Historians often refer to this season as a time of Pentecost when really beautiful spiritual manifestations took place, visions, all sorts of spiritual gifts manifested, leading up to the dedication and during the dedication of the Kirtland Temple on March 27th, 1836. I wanna take a split second if I can and share just a little bit from Karl Ricks Anderson’s book himself about some of these manifestations. It’s called Joseph Smith’s Kirtland Eyewitness Account. He gives a little bit of an example of some of the things going on. I thought these were really worth telling you about. Lorenzo Snow talked a little bit about what happened during this Pentecostal period and he said this, and this is coming from the book quote, there we had the gift of prophecy, the gift of tongues, the interpretation of tongues, visions, and marvelous dreams were related.

                                           00:16:01             The singing of heavenly choirs were heard and wonderful manifestations of the healing power through the administrations of the elders were witnessed. The sick were healed. The deaf made to hear, the blind to see, the lame to walk. In very many instances it was plainly manifest that the sacred and divine influence, a spiritual atmosphere, pervaded that holy edifice. That’s just such a beautiful thing to hear. In the Kirtland temple, about a week after the dedication, April 3rd, 1836, Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith are in the temple and the Savior appeared and accepted the temple. Then we get Moses who committed the keys of the gathering of Israel from the four parts of the earth. We get Elias who restored the dispensation of the gospel of Abraham. The promises made to Abraham and these include the covenant blessing of eternal marriage, posterity and temple ordinances tied to exaltation and then Elijah conferred the keys of the sealing power as prophesied in Malachi turned the hearts of the children to their fathers.

                                           00:17:17             The beginning of the restoration of these saving ordinances are incredible and they happen historically at a really interesting time. This is the market revolution. This is a time where people are able to get their goods to market quicker. That’s why it’s called the market revolution, but it’s a tumultuous economic time. People quickly rise but they just as quickly fall. We see that with the Smith family themselves that this is a tricky time, this first 30, 40 years of the 19th century. Interestingly, Alexis de Tocqueville is a French diplomat who comes to visit the United States to look at our prison system. While he’s here from 1831 to 1832, he looks at everything going on in our country and what’s happening to people in democracy. He ends up writing a great book called Democracy in America. It’s one of the most used books in all disciplines. This is the point.

                                           00:18:16             What he says is happening is that because the market revolution, people’s lives are volatile, they become very individualistic. Individualism is on the rise. He writes that people become obsessed with making money and then if they make money keeping the money and if they lose the money making it again, he says they get tied into this insatiable need for more and he says what he observes beginning to happen is people are forgetting their ancestors. He writes that they’re forgetting their ancestors and they are also not paying as much attention to their posterity. Now, isn’t it fascinating that here this visit happens in 1831 and 1832 and that’s what he’s observing on the ground. Here we have in Kirtland in 1836 Elijah and we are not forgetting our ancestors. We are turning the hearts of the children to their fathers.

Hank Smith:                      00:19:18             That’s incredible. He was, who is that again? Visiting?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:19:22             Alexis de Tocqueville. Democracy on America. I use that in my US history course and I couldn’t help but think. Isn’t that interesting? He’s observing. People are becoming a little more selfish and he literally clearly writes forgetting their ancestors, and yet we are not.

Hank Smith:                      00:19:43             If only, yeah, if only someone would come and help us with that. If only Elijah would be here.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:19:49             I do have to share a really important part of the context of the times as well that leads us right into the tender beautiful vision of 137 in the 19th century and really through all of human history, death is much more present in a way, perhaps we don’t see it. The infant mortality rate was so poor. For example, for every thousand babies born in 1800, over 46 to 47% did not make it to their fifth birthday. If the child lived to 10, they had somewhere between a 60 to 70% chance of making it to adulthood. Now, I want you to think of that in context of the hearts of these parents. Joseph Smith and Emma have 11 total children, some biological, some adopted. Of those 11, six died young and one died at age 26, more than half of your children pass away. This happens over and over and over with so many.

                                           00:21:02             That’s why I wanna actually list these out because I want it to sink in how much death they were dealing with to know how tender this revelation was. Their first son died the day of his birth. Then they have twins in 1831 who died soon after birth. They then adopt Joseph Murdock Smith and Julia Murdock Smith from a family which the wife passed away in childbirth. The father didn’t feel he could care for them. They lose Joseph Murdock Smith within the first few months from measles and also exposure they, that’s the night Joseph Smith’s taken out and tarred and feathered. Joseph Smith, the third survived. Frederick Granger William Smith died at age 26. Alexander Hale Smith survived. Don Carlos Smith died at 14 months. Then they had an unnamed son stillborn in 1842. Talk about broken hearts. That’s a lot of loss. Some of these really well-known early Latter-day Saint women.

                                           00:22:07             Hannah Hatfield King is a convert from England. She had 10 children, four survived to adulthood. Helen Mar Kimball Whitney lost the first three of her 11 children. Helen’s other eight children survived past birth, but her oldest daughter died of tuberculosis at 16. Her youngest daughter died of scarlet fever at four and a son died at 21. Emmaline B. Wells lost three of her six children. One in infancy, two in young adulthood and these deaths are harrowing in her diary count. I’ll share one little passage later on, and Susa Young Gates, Brigham Young’s daughter had 13 total children. Seven of her children did not survive to adulthood. Lucy Mack, who I love, Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph Smith’s mother in her history of Joseph Smith, writes and captures this moment on the verge of the deathbed of a child Sophronia. She’s writing this later on and she’s recalling this, but this must have made such an impression because she recalls it in quite a bit of detail here.

                                           00:23:15             I just want you again to imagine how often this occurred for these Saints. They’re living in New Hampshire at the time. Lebanon, New Hampshire and typhus sweeps in, all of her kids get sick with typhus. Sophronia gets the sickest. She’s been suffering with it for about 89 days, she’d been administered to by a doctor. The doctor tells Lucy, there’s really nothing more we can do. She’s not responding to the medicine, he leaves. Lucy Mack writes this, the ensuing night she lay altogether talking Sophronia. She lay altogether motionless with her eyes wide open and with that peculiar aspect which bespeaks the near approach of death. As she lay thus, I gazed upon her as a mother looks upon the last shade of life in a darling child. In this moment of distraction, my husband and I clasped our hands and dropped to our knees and they plead. They plead for the life of their child.

                                           00:24:22             Please spare her life a little longer. When they arose from the prayer, our child to all appearances had ceased breathing. I caught a blanket, threw it around her and took her in my arms, commenced pacing the floor, the present, doing all I could to save her and then it says, quote the people there said, Mrs. Smith, it is of no use. You are currently crazy. Your child is dead. Notwithstanding I would not for a moment relinquish the hope of seeing her breathe and live. She wraps the blanket around her, continues to carry her and then she says at length she sobbed and she says she starts to breathe again. For those of you who have experienced in life something of this kind, you can sympathize with me. Are you a mother, I would add a father, who has been bereft of a child, feel for your heartstrings and then tell me how I felt with my expiring child, pressed to my bosom.

                                           00:25:24             Would you at this trying moment feel to deny that God had power to save to the utmost all who call on him? I did not then neither do I now. Sophronia lives. After she begins breathing again she sinks down by her bed completely exhausted and overwhelmed from those feelings. Joseph Smith’s brother Alvin, he is going to pass away. This happens years later. November 15th, 1823. It says he gets sick with the bilious colic, which really means abdominal pain. The assumption is that it’s appendicitis. We don’t know for sure. The doctor they typically saw was not there, so they called a different doctor and he administers calomel that has mercury in it, gets lodged in his stomach. By the time the other doctor comes along and brings some other specialists, it’s too late. It’s still lodged into his stomach. Alvin knows that he’s going to pass away and he can tell.

                                           00:26:24             He can feel it. There’s really not much they can do. I think it’s so tender to see that what Alvin does right before he passes away, he calls Hyrum before him and he says to Hyrum, this is from Lucy Mack’s book also, Hyrum, I must die. Now I wanted to say a few things which I wish to have you remember, I have done all I could to make our parents comfortable. I want you to go on and finish the house and take care of them in their old age. He then calls Sophronia before him, says the same thing, care for mother and father, look out for them, take care of them. He put off a lot of his life. He’s 25 and he stayed with his family to help care for them and work alongside them. Alvin is revered. He is known as a tender wonderful person, a great big brother to Joseph Smith and Hyrum and they adore him.

                                           00:27:20             Says the next day he calls in Joseph and the other children, exhorted them in the same way. Tells them to look after their mother and father tells Joseph, be sure you go obtain that record. Be faithful. And then the youngest Smith, Lucy, he takes her in his arm, she says, Amby, Amby, and then they watch him pass away. Lucy Mack says in here, we all with one accord wept over our irretrievable loss and we could not be comforted because he was not. I want you to understand the context and Alvin in particular, his utmost concern is his parents as he is passing away. Hank, would you like to read section 137 verses one through six?

Hank Smith:                      00:28:11             Sure. You make me emotional and then you’re like, why don’t you go ahead and read Hank? Okay. Section 137, the heavens were opened upon us and I beheld the Celestial Kingdom of God and the glory thereof, whether in the body or not, I cannot tell. I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire. Also the blazing throne of God whereon was seated the Father and the Son. I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom which had the appearance of being paved with gold. I saw Father Adam and Abraham and my father and my mother, my brother Alvin, that had long since slept and marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:29:08             It says he marveled at this. Keep in mind this is a really interesting vision to have. You’re sitting next to your father in the Kirtland temple in the upper west room. You see your father in the future and your mother, who by the way passes away after you do, you see your father and your mother. Then you see Alvin and why he’s marveling at this is because Alvin hadn’t been baptized. At his funeral the minister, the Reverend Benjamin Stockton essentially says because he wasn’t baptized, he’s gonna go to hell. Now imagine that deathbed scene that we just saw. Most wonderful son whose utmost concern is his mom and dad and then you hear something like that. How did they get to that point that at Alvin’s funeral the minister says, nah, he wasn’t baptized, will be in hell. We know that that was not the case with the first century with Peter and Paul, that both Peter and Paul mention that there is salvation for the dead or some sort of work happening for the dead.

                                           00:30:31             Both of them mention it. Let’s go to Paul first, let’s go to 1 Corinthians 15. I’m just gonna read a couple verses here and then I’m gonna have John, I’ll ask you to read a few verses too in chapter 15. 1 Corinthians, if you go to verse 19, Paul says this and I want you to hear what he says. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men, most miserable. If in this life only. Verse 26, the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. And then verse 29 is key. Paul speaking to the people in Corinth and he says here in verse 29 else, what shall they do which are baptized for the dead if the dead not rise at all, why are they then baptized for the dead? He’s clearly letting them know there is life after death that there is a resurrection, that this is going to occur, but he’s referring to baptisms for the dead work or ordinances being done for the dead. So we know Paul is aware of this. John, I’d like to read 50 through 58.

John Bytheway:               00:31:56             1 Corinthians 15:50 through 58. Now this I say brethren that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I ashew you a mystery, we shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. For the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be changed. For this corruption must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then be brought to pass the saying that is written, death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? Oh grave where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin and the strength of sin is the law, but thanks be to God which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord. For as much as ye know that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:33:12             You can see that he’s using those words a lot, that incorruptible inheritance, inheritance referring to a glorified resurrection, incorruptible being immortal, a glorified body beyond decay. I wanna go now to Peter. We’ve already read in Peter chapter one verses three and four about an incorruptible inheritance. Hank, if you could read chapter three verses 18 and 19 and then 4:6.

Hank Smith:                      00:33:45             Okay, this is one Peter 3:18 and 19. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit, by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:34:05             Thank you. And then 4:6.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:09             4 For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:34:19             Peter is also talking about this incorruptible inheritance. Inheritance, the eternal reward reserved for us in heaven, but I’m getting something different here. I feel as though incorruptible takes on new meaning that is salvation is open to the living and the dead. So what happened? Where did it go? Did this idea of gospel for the dead taught the dead and saving ordinances for the dead get forgotten? We know that in the first century, Peter and Paul are aware by the second century we have two theologians. We have the Clement of Alexandria and Origen of Alexandria, who was his student. Origen of Alexandria taught something very interesting. It will later be called heretical. He believed that our souls had a preexistence. He also believed in something we call universal reconciliation, which actually does respect free will. Really is this idea that you can have continued progress towards salvation after death.

                                           00:35:37             We know that that’s being taught in the second and third centuries. Then the fourth century we get Augustine, Steven Harper does a great job explaining this in the earlier podcast on these sections he refers to in Augustine who lived 354 to 430 CE really rejected these ideas of Origen. Began to really preach eventually that everything’s fixed at death, that there’s no chance of progress or movement after death. This also is kind of a decision based in fear. The idea was if you believed that there was progress after death, would the Saints at the time not do all they could in this life? Would they put off what they should be doing in this life? And that really starts to change Augustine’s mind in the Middle Ages. The New Testament doctrine of gospel to the dead is largely forgotten after that. Then we get John Calvin in the 16th century who really comes out with this idea of predestination. Although early predestination concepts are formed with Augustine, they really get developed with John Calvin in the 16th century. This is where Protestantism closes the door on any sort of postmortal opportunity that you’re either damned or saved according to his predestination ideas. For all rights and purposes, Protestantism picks this up and this is where we are on Alvin’s funeral.

Hank Smith:                      00:37:10             Somehow death became the deadline.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:37:14             Death becomes the deadline. I actually do have a quote here. It’s Rescue the Dead by Trumbower. That’s the book that Steven Harper recommended. There is one quote from it in chapter seven where it says Augustine’s views had evolved over many years. In the mid four twenties he had formulated the clearest position in the west rejecting all forms of posthumous salvation. It is clearly there where there’s a shift tragically that is lost, but because we have a loving heavenly Father, he’s going to restore this information through the prophet Joseph Smith. Hank, can you read verses seven through nine of 137?

Hank Smith:                      00:37:59             Section 137. This is just after he’s seen Alvin and he’s marveling that he’s there. Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me saying all who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it had they been permitted to tarry shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God; also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it who would have received it with all their hearts shall be heirs of that kingdom; For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts. And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:38:45             Imagine you’re Joseph Smith, this beloved brother who you loved so tenderly because he had a good heart because he would’ve accepted it if he could have. He is told he is saved in the celestial kingdom and one other part of this that I think is so beautiful is it tells us specifically that the Lord will judge our hearts. If you are a parent or someone who has loved ones who have fought with mental illness or have had other trials biologically, chemically, struggle and maybe not chosen the path, this is a talk by Elder Ballard that he gave in October 1987 General Conference. He says this, only the Lord knows all the details and he it is who will judge our actions here on earth. When he does judge us, I feel he will take all things into consideration. Our genetic and chemical makeup, our mental state, that’s a big one.

                                           00:40:02             Our intellectual capacity, the teachings we have received, the traditions of our fathers, our health and so forth. We learn in the scriptures that the blood of Christ will atone for the sins of man who have died not knowing the will of God concerning them or who have ignorantly sinned. In this talk, he goes to a funeral of a friend who had committed suicide and he’s puzzled, how do we feel about this? What are our thoughts on this? And he says, peace came to me only when I recognized that only the Lord could administer fair judgment. Only the Lord knows our hearts. That is such a comforting doctrine. The Lord will judge our hearts for those of us who have loved ones who have struggled or we ourselves struggle, the Lord will judge our hearts. Notice it doesn’t say necessarily our actions, he’s gonna judge our hearts, the intention of our hearts, the desires of our hearts, but we can’t pass up verse 10.

                                           00:41:15             I want you to go back to that really long context I gave you about people losing babies over and over and over again. Although it is mentioned in the Book of Mormon, also in Moroni 8:22, we get some idea that these children will be saved. This vision verifies it, so if you are one of those people, mother or father who have lost those babies, to hear this beautiful verse 10, and also I beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven. They’re saved. There’s so many that didn’t know what happened to these babies or the assumption that they could go to the wrong place if they weren’t baptized. This is a tender, tender vision. I hope you felt that as we’ve studied it.

John Bytheway:               00:42:21             Thank you, Lori, the point of who would have received it. It’s so liberating to know who makes that judgment. It’s not us. As you’ve been saying, the Lord makes that judgment of those who would’ve received it ’cause he’s the only one who knows the hearts of all men. I can feel as we’re talking my lively hope and hopefully all of our listeners, lively hope just climbing. Hank and Lori I have circled in verse seven all verse eight, all verse nine, all verse 10 all and I keep thinking of Elder Patrick Kearon, Heavenly Father’s plan is not a plan to keep people out. This is a plan to bring people home. That’s what we’re seeing here.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:43:06             Absolutely. What a loving Father in heaven. I really do believe as I’ve been in the homes of these women, one just a week ago, mourning the loss of her daughter, that this is such comforting doctrine. The Lord knows our hearts and if you’ve ever been one who you maybe feel like you’ve been misunderstood. I know in my life I had childhood anxiety. I really did. I probably seemed strange to many, but feeling as a kid, I wish someone could just understand how I felt. This tells us that the Lord understands our hearts. He knows what we’re dealing with. For anyone going through any trial, that is such a comfort. I think that’s a real comfort to know that we have a tender Father in heaven and his Son Jesus Christ, who look at our hearts.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:03             Stephen Robinson once said, it’s not about who has your membership record, it’s about who has your heart.

John Bytheway:               00:44:09             Who has your heart. Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:11             Lori, you said that you seemed strange to many. Well, John and I are, actually are.

John Bytheway:               00:44:16             We are strange.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:17             Yeah, we are strange. It doesn’t seem that way. It’s the truth, but listen to this. This is the theological dictionary of the New Testament, okay? Not a Latter-day Saint publication in the slightest referencing First Corinthians 15:29. None of the attempts to escape the theory of vicarious baptism in primitive Christianity have been successful. I just love it. People wanna say, well, they weren’t really practicing baptism for the dead. Here’s what they were doing. Here’s an honest scholar saying, yeah, we’ve tried to say that wasn’t happening, but we have not been successful. But it definitely was happening. Lori, let me ask you. We have listeners who are much like the women in your ward who are dealing with this pain and this loss. As you sit across from these women just give us Lori, the Relief Society President. What do you say?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:45:18             Well, first off, I’ve listened to what they have to say and what I hear is that even though they have a knowledge that they will be with their loved ones again, that that separation is just painful. I opened up these sections and said to her, read these. This will bring comfort to your heart with the tragic loss of your daughter. I bear testimony that we absolutely know that the Lord looks at our hearts in these tragic circumstances. He looks at the hearts and that He loves us and our Savior is merciful, understands that this is a complicated world that we live in and that our children are faced with very difficult things. I bore my testimony to her about that. I hugged her. I’m with her. We really and truthfully are just trying to be there for her in every way that we can. The impression that comes to my mind over and over again is my dear daughter, I love you.

                                           00:46:28             I think we have such a tender Father in heaven who loves his sons and daughters. Where I’m working with the women, I sense the love. Impressions come to my mind and I try and act upon those impressions. I do think they need to understand these two sections. Boyd K. Packer gave a talk. He said that we would live to see our future generations celebrating. This is me not quoting directly, celebrating these two sections being added to our canonized scriptures. Do we not need this now? We need this right now. They needed it then, we need it now. The world we live in. And I do think that by adding those to the scriptures, our Father in heaven wanted these two nuggets to go out to his children to help us, to give us lively hope. I really do believe it is a lively hope. I’m excited to go into the next section as well. 138 ’cause it continues and it gets added to, it’s so exciting.

Hank Smith:                      00:47:38             It feels like these two sections almost shorten the distance between us and them. There’s just a maybe a glimpse of them that everyone pleads for, right? Just a glimpse, just a faint sign. Then this offers you a little bit of that refreshment almost for your soul.

John Bytheway:               00:47:59             Do you know what? I love that. What we’ve done here, Lori, is we have read this slowly. It’s so easy to say, oh, I need to read my chapter before I go to bed. But we have read this slowly and the slower you go with section 137, the more you have those moments of, oh, thank you for saying that.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:48:18             Susa Young Gates writes a publication in 1928 called Women of the Mormon Church and she’s explaining to the broader worlds why we’re so lucky to be Latter-day Saint women. She talks about the temple. Susa Young Gates loved the temple. She says in this article that the restoration of the gospel had opened the gates beautiful referring to the ancient temple. The gateway of heaven was open, which led to the higher courts of life’s temples. This restoration brought this back. I can’t emphasize this enough. How lucky are we that we have this information and that we have temples. President Nelson, I would say his entire focus of being the prophet was absolutely on the importance of the temple, of going to the temple of doing this work. We have to do our parts. I want you to hear what Susa Young Gates, again, remember she had 13 children and lost seven.

                                           00:49:23             She says this in this article that women I’m summarizing here were not permitted to go beyond the gate beautiful in the temple at Jerusalem. Further, this is a quote, they never entered into the court of sacrifice nor into the higher holier place. End quote. Thus, during the dark ages, prejudice and oppression and superstition crept in and women were subjugated, but alas, these are my words, but alas and I say alas, Joseph Smith ushered in the Restoration and then listen to Susa Young Gate’s words. The women with their little children were among the most blessed recipients of the results of that vision. Notice women and their little children, she’s talking about that loss. She goes on to say this quote, the Mormon women have faith and trust in God. They know that they had individual conscious existence before they came to this earth for spirits or intelligences are eternal. They know too that they cannot escape all pain, sorrows, struggle and sickness, not while they live on this earth. Yet through faith and trust in an all wise father, all earthly sorrows are turned into character building forces when death comes as it must. Mormon women know that in the life after death, all friendships, family ties and tender affections will continue as they were upon this earth. End quote. She’d lost seven.

Hank Smith:                      00:51:01             John, one thing that stood out to me this year, and I’ve said it a couple of times so you’ll have to forgive the repetition, is that Alvin dies in 1823 and do you remember Dr. Fluhman? Joseph thinks God is not very merciful. Then in 1832 with section 76, he finds out, wait, God is pretty merciful. And then in 1836 with this section he finds out, hey he’s a lot more merciful than I thought. And then 1842, section 127, you can be baptized for the dead. He’s supremely merciful. I can see why the Lord would say to Joseph in 1820, all those creeds are an abomination in my sight because I’m not known for being very merciful. Over the course of what the next 22 years we find out he’s supremely merciful. It’s his chief attribute. Can I share something tender with both of you as well?

                                           00:52:05             We’ve had S. Michael Wilcox on our show a couple of times, for those of you who don’t know Brother Wilcox’s story, his sweet wife Laurie passed away just as he was retiring. They were excited to spend the retirement together and she passed away just I think a couple of months after Mike retired from being in seminaries and institutes. He wrote in his book Sunset and I was able to talk to him about this. He said that when someone who’s a pillar in your life like that just passes away, he said, during the day I could kind of distract myself, I could be doing other things. And he said, but it was the night. He said the nights were just so hard and he would dread them. And then he told me this, and I think this is in his book as well, he said as he’s staring at the sunset one night thinking I can’t do this again. He said the Spirit spoke to him and said, you know with every sunset you’re one day closer together, you’ll never be as far apart as you were the day she passed away. You’ll never be that far apart again. And every night it’s another step closer. And he said from then on out he looked forward to the sunset. It’s another step together.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:53:27             That is a beautiful story.

Hank Smith:                      00:53:29             Think of the women that you’ve been helping, ministering to and all of our listeners out there that each day is another step closer. John, Lori, one day, I truly believe this, even though it’s hard to believe at the time, when the reunion comes, you’ll feel like it was so short a time.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:53:51             I believe that too. And I just wanna add, I believe that they are our guardian angels championing us from the other side. That’s something that’s been made mentioned to me that they feel the presence of their lost loved one on the other side really helping them in their lives right now. I think we have to remember, we feel the separation, but they are close and they’re watching over us and they’re helping and guiding us.

John Bytheway:               00:54:22             Lori, this is beautiful. I think it’s gonna help a lot of people. Hank knows that I want to share my favorite President John Taylor quote.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:32             I knew you were gonna bring it up.

John Bytheway:               00:54:34             And you know how I always say, and as a matter of fact, it’s the only John Taylor quote that I know. He said, God lives and his eyes are over us and his angels are round and about us. They are more interested in us than we are in ourselves. And if that isn’t good enough, listen what he says next. And they are more interested in us than we are in ourselves 10,000 times, but we do not know it.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:55:05             Oh, that’s amazing. That is a good quote. That’s powerful.

John Bytheway:               00:55:10             We are working together on our side to do what we can and they are working for us on their side to do what they can to bring us over there one day. But we’re working together on this work of salvation for all of us. Jesus isn’t just really good at saving, he is mighty to save and that being mighty to save doesn’t end at death.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:32             If you both don’t mind, I’m gonna read something that I wrote in that chapter I told you about. Very few things that I write do I actually end up really liking. This was something that I liked mostly because of the editors at the Religious Study Center at BYU. And this is what I and them I think wrote. I think one of the reasons I ended up liking it was because it helped people like Lori. You’re talking about that these doctrines really do soothe an ache. I talked about those who have had loved ones pass on and that they are now in the company of loving family members and ancestors. Your ancestors who have passed on. President Nelson once remarked our limited perspective would be enlarged if we could just witness the reunions on the other side of the veil. At the funeral of King Follett, Joseph Smith said, our relatives and friends are only separated from their bodies for a short season.

                                           00:56:36             Their spirits which existed with God have left the tabernacle of clay only for a little moment. They now exist in a place where they converse together the same that we do here on earth. John Taylor said, while we are mourning the loss of our friends, others are rejoicing to meet them behind the veil. My dad passed away in 2021 and I remember being a little frustrated with that. He and I had not had a great relationship early in my life and it was really getting good towards the end. Then he passed away and it was kind of sudden, we didn’t see it coming. I was a little frustrated and I think I got a rebuke from the Spirit, went something like this. Would you like me to bring him back? Yeah, yeah, I would. So he can be sick and not feeling good? For you, so you’d feel better?

                                           00:57:32             Well when you put it like that, it doesn’t sound that good. And then this, it was a, it was a soothing moment. You should see how much fun he’s having. You should see who he is talking to, the love he’s getting. And we might think, well, my child or my parent or my sister or my brother, they weren’t a very good person. The reunions are joyful. It’s a soothing thing to think of. I wouldn’t want to take my dad away from seeing his dad and his mom and his older brother and his, some friends from high school, some friends who died in Vietnam. It helps me nod and say, it’s okay. It’s okay.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:58:15             I like that. Thank you for sharing that. And I do believe your dad’s watching over you. I don’t know how many of you have ever seen this picture. So this is Minerva Teichert’s and the picture’s called Not Alone. And I think this is exactly what we’ve been talking about that they’re watching over us from the other side. Mary Fielding Smith, an incredible woman. Mary Fielding was so strong. She’s 36 years old when Jerusha dies, Hyrum’s first wife, he’s left with these orphan children. She will marry Hyrum and become the mother of those children at age 36 right from the start. Can you imagine? That’s not an easy thing to do to step into that role and your husband is gonna go to Liberty Jail and you’re pregnant and you’re not feeling well while you’re pregnant. While he’s in Liberty Jail, she delivers Joseph F. Smith. The situation of that would’ve been so hard.

                                           00:59:20             In fact, you can get on the Church History Library and you can look up the letters between Hyrum and Mary, Hyrum to Mary and Mary to Hyrum. And I just read over these over the last few weeks, what you see is love, but also incredible suffering. How are we gonna do this? I’m sick. She’s so sick. She can hardly care for herself. Mercy, her sister steps in and really is helping care for the baby and the other children. This is such a trying time. There’s mention of caring for children. There’s mention of the sickness. How are we going to pay these debts? I mean, can you imagine the stress and knowing she goes and takes Joseph F. to the jail, he’s able to bless Joseph F. Smith. Joseph F. Smith comes into the world in turmoil, in a situation of turmoil, a sickly, sickly like on the verge of death sick mother, a father who is in Liberty Jail.

                                           01:00:29             The conditions were so deplorable there. This is how his life begins. Mary Fielding is incredible. She’ll end up writing a letter to her brother Joseph Fielding that I think is worth mentioning. She’s just come out of, she calls it six month widowhood, but really Hyrum’s still alive. She’s referring to him being in jail. But I want you to hear her words. In a moment where this could have done you in. You’re sick, your husband’s jailed. You really can’t even take care of yourself. You’re also being persecuted by everyone. I mean this is a tough, tough time. And she writes to her brother Joseph Fielding, this is in June, 1839, so after Liberty Jail. And she writes, oh my dear brother, I must tell you for your comfort that my hope is full and it is a glorious hope.

                                           01:01:34             And though I have been left for near six months in widowhood in the time of great affliction and was called to take joyfully or otherwise the spoiling of almost all our goods in the absence of my husband and all unlawfully just for the gospel’s sake. And then she writes, for the judge himself declared that he was kept in prison for no other reason than because he was a friend to his brother. Yet I do not feel in the least discouraged now though my sister and I are here together in a strange land. We have been enabled to rejoice in the midst of our privation and persecutions that we were counted worthy to suffer these things so that we may with the ancient saints who suffered in manner inherit the same glorious reward. I love that she uses the word inherit there, incorruptible inheritance. If it had not been for this hope, this lively hope I added lively in there.

                                           01:02:40             I should have sunk before this. But blessed be God and rock of my salvation here I am and perfectly satisfied and happy having not the smallest desire to go one step backwards. That is an incredible strength. Joseph F. Smith is born into turmoil, but he has an incredible mother that is so strong and hopeful and has a lively hope in spite of it. That picture of Minerva Teichert, the time that she’s talking and writing to her brother at this point is a relatively moment, small blip of peace. Then Hyrum’s killed. Can you imagine getting that news? She goes to see his body and she takes her kids. She’s trying to be strong for the kids, but she sees his body and she just can’t hold it together. She weeps on him. Oh, Hyrum. Oh Hyrum, tell me you’re not dead. Something to that effect. And she weeps.

                                           01:03:46             Then she’s gotta go home with these kids and she’s gotta survive and she’s gotta take care of those kids. Then she’s gonna decide to go west on her own, but she’s not on her own. That’s what I love in this Minerva Teichert painting is that to the side of the wagon, she’s got Joseph F. with her, but to the side of the wagon is a legion of angels, of which I’m sure Hyrum was right there helping her cross those plains. She has incredible grit. The captain of the company, Captain Lot, Cornelius Lot tells her, you and your children are gonna be a pain crossing the plains. He’s not happy that he’s been assigned to her. She not only tells him we’ll be just fine we’re gonna beat you there. And she does. She actually does. She’s gonna tell Joseph F. anoint the ox and he blesses the ox and the ox heals.

                                           01:04:52             Not that much further another ox gets sick and the same thing is repeated. These two oxen make it to the valley. And in fact, she’ll wake up one morning and Captain Lot so trying to beat her to the valley has left her and her oxen are wandered off and she prays that they can find the ox and they find the ox. I’m sure this was God punishing Captain Lot. A storm comes, stops them in their tracks and she’s able to get her ox and get into the valley before he does, the night before. What an incredible woman. But she was not alone. We are not alone. I know we’re not alone. I had an experience in COVID. I remember we were hearing about people dying alone in those rooms where they weren’t letting loved ones into the rooms. It plagued me. Unfortunately for me, I ended up hospitalized with COVID. I remember getting there and being told that my husband basically had to leave, that no one could come visit and that I was supposed to lay in a crooning position, the stomach down on this bed and they couldn’t tell me how long I would be there.

                                           01:06:06             I had COVID pneumonia and I was absolutely terrified. I hope it’s okay that I’m sharing this with you ’cause this was a sacred moment for me. I remembered thinking, I felt like I was gonna panic, like how long am I gonna be here? It was right before Christmas. I had just been so sick for weeks and my oxygen had dropped down into the high seventies and was lucky I got to the hospital when I did. When I got there and my husband had to leave, I had this moment of like, oh my gosh, I’ve never felt more alone in my life. And the nurse comes in in a hazmat suit what looked like a hazmat suit. I’d never have had a moment more of feeling, am I gonna survive this? Am I gonna be alone if I don’t? And I was terrified. I said to the nurse, I feel like I’m gonna panic.

                                           01:06:56             How long am I gonna be here? And she kept saying, we can’t tell you how long you’re gonna be here, but I want you to hear what happened next. She went to leave to go get me something to calm me down. And in that moment I felt, I actually felt people praying for me. There was like a visceral glow in the room. And I knew, I knew I was not alone. I knew there were guardian angels somewhere. So I don’t know who they were. I knew they were there. And in an instant, it calmed me from my head to my toes. The panic left. I felt that I was not alone. And I was able to lay in that crooning position for several days. And lucky for me, I responded. My body stopped attacking and I was able to go home within the week. I’ll never forget that. And what it taught me is in some of our scariest alone moments, I didn’t know how long I’d be there. I couldn’t have anyone be by my side. I was not alone. We really are not alone. We have our ancestors that have gone before. I really fullheartedly believe guardian angels watching over us and I felt that that day.

Hank Smith:                      01:08:12             John and I were interviewing Derek Sainsbury and we were talking about our ancestors and those helping us from the other side. And he said so casually, something I had never thought of, which really frustrated me that, you know, I’ve been doing this a long time. I should at least think of something. He said, well, you know, angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost. And I said, what? And he said, yeah, angels. Our ancestors. They speak to us through the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:08:46             I love that. I believe it.