John Bytheway:               00:00:00             Now for part two with Dr. Lori Wilkinson, Doctrine & Covenants 137 and 138.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:00:09             We’re gonna fast forward 82 years to the year 1918 and we’re talking about Joseph F. Smith. That little boy that was right beside Mary Fielding coming west. This is Joseph Smith’s nephew again, Hyrum and Mary Fielding Smith’s son. He has just lost his beloved son, Hyrum M. Smith. He was an apostle. Joseph F. Smith was particularly close to this son and he dies of appendicitis. Isn’t that interesting that maybe, possibly Alvin and both Hyrum Mack died of appendicitis? He also had lost 12 other children. Here he is the prophet. He has knowledge of eternal life. Yet he explains that his heart was broken for the loss of this son and he said it was one of the most severe blows that he was ever called upon to endure, the loss of this son.

                                           00:01:09             Joseph Fielding Smith, this is in the life of Joseph F. Smith by Joseph Fielding Smith. He cried out in English, quote, my soul is rent asunder. My heart is broken and flutters for life. Oh my sweet son, my joy, my hope, and now what can I do? Oh, what can I do? My soul is rent. My heart is broken. Oh God, help me. So he’s devastated. The prophet is expressing anguish at the loss of this son. We’ve talked a lot about this separation and pain, but I wanna move into there really is such a beautiful thing that occurs from his suffering at this point. He’s able to find meaning in suffering, which I think we’re all called upon to do at one time or another in our life that in those times that are the most trying, can we find meaning in the suffering? For him, it comes in the form of pondering, thinking about the atonement of our savior, Jesus Christ, and then going to the scriptures. He’s gonna have an amazing vision that is so comforting to all of us and really does show us that we can have a lively hope. I do need to give you a little bit of historical context. Sorry. This is what we historians always do.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:34             Please do. Lean into it.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:02:36             This vision happens on October 3rd, 1918. It’s the day before General Conference. Really, Joseph F. Smith has been sick for about six months. He’s not done well for a few years, but he’s particularly not felt well in the last six months. He has this vision. He goes the next day to conference, but he doesn’t tell ’em about the vision. He does tell them that he has been in communication, praying during this time. He says this quote, I have not lived alone these five months. I have dwelt in the spirit of prayer, of supplication, of faith and determination, and I have had communication with the Spirit of the Lord continuously. They’ll actually record the vision after the conference. We’ll come back to that. Keep in mind, this is during a very tumultuous time. Again, a time where there’s a lot of death. We’ve gotta understand the context to see the beauty of this vision as well, and I really am not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but we’re in the middle of World War I.

                                           00:03:53             We’re also in the beginning of the Spanish flu pandemic. When we talk about being surrounded by death, Spanish influenza is 50, around 50 million, and that is considered a lower estimate. It could be much higher than that. The women in the Relief Society magazine write about this. This war has been brutal. You have the first large scale use of machine guns, heavy artillery tanks, poisonous gas. Its trench warfare where they had mud and lice and rats and they’d get something called trench foot where their feet just never could dry out. Literally, the skin would just come off. Also, those trenches are no good in spreading the Spanish influenza. The conditions of those trenches made the spread of that sickness even worse, and it takes a psychological toll. Somewhere between nine and 10 million soldiers died of either wounds or disease, nine to 10 million. It’s estimated that six to 7 million civilians pass away.

                                           00:05:02             There’s a lot of starvation during this time, sickness and disease as well that accompanied this war. That’s heavy. Keep in mind, Spanish influenza, that was a terrible death, meaning you die of pneumonia. It can be fluid or blood in your lungs. It could happen relatively quickly. Within a 24 hour period, people turned blue from lack of oxygen or they got blue splotches under their skin. This is devastating. In the Relief Society magazine in 1919, the First Presidency, Emmeline B. Wells is the president, they write to their sisters. Keep in mind this whole magazine in 1918 and 1919, I looked very closely into both of these volumes, throughout it they’re expressing concern for the war. People losing loved ones in the war, the toll of the sickness. She says this. This is January, 1919. Looking back at 1918, it tells us the situation.

                                           00:06:11             Dearly beloved sisters, the year 1918, which is just closing, has been a most eventful and stupendous period. Not only in the history of the whole world, but as well in the events which have crowded upon the members of this great and growing organization. War and its attendant horrors and sacrifices have called into feverish activity every atom of reserve power in the ranks of our members. Listen to that. It has called every atom of reserve power into the ranks of our members. They feel this war. This has been very difficult. Individuals, ward units, stake and general officers have each filled up to the brimming point of their measure of labor and usefulness. She goes on to say, our hearts are heavy with the sympathy of those of our mothers and sisters who have participated in the supreme life sacrifice rendering by a few of our soldier boys in this dreadful conflict, God comfort the sorrowing parents and friends.

                                           00:07:19             Then she goes on to say the dreaded epidemic which has spread its pall over our communities, has taken its heavy toll from our homes. More deaths have resulted in Utah and the United States from the latter-day plague than has resulted from the war. But keep listening. The future holds much constructive and reconstructive labor for us. There is strength and struggle and joy and toil with infinite spiritual hope smiling at us from the promising face of the new year. We shall not fail in fulfillment nor falter in allegiance for no matter what comes to us and ours, to the society and the church, or to the trembling multitudes of the world whose hearts are failing them for fear, our feet are set in holy places and we have the promise of our Redeemer that we shall not be moved.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:17             I remember being a teenager and reading this going well this kind of comes outta nowhere. It’s the 1800’s. 1800’s, turn the page, 1918. What? Where did this come from? But now, oh, this was a time of death in the world.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:08:35             Absolutely. Joseph F. Smith has had a lot of death in his life. Not only did he lose his father, he loses his mother when he’s somewhere around 13 or 14 years old. This is difficult. Can you imagine he’s born into the trauma of your mother sick and your father’s in Liberty Jail. You got across the plains. He had an amazing mother, but then she dies. That’s tough and it makes him both tender and tough. I like that he gets his grit from his mother I would say. He goes on mission after mission after mission. He is this valiant soul in the service of our Father in heaven. He’s kind of a little bit getting into trouble and his mother writes in one letter, I’m worried about who he’s hanging out with. How many of us have wondered that with all of our kids? I’m worried about the crowd he’s hanging out with at the moment, but when she passes a few years later, he’ll go with a chaperone with him to this mission in Hawaii.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:46             I wanted to throw in something here, Lori. This is from my friend David Whitchurch. He wrote an article on Joseph F. Smith. He talks about his mother dying, his sister, her name is Martha Ann says, after the death of their mother, they were cared for by a woman named Hannah Grinold, a close family friend. Recalling this time, Joseph F. wrote, after my mother’s death, there followed 18 months of perilous times for me. I was almost like a comet or a fiery meteor without attraction or gravitation to keep me balanced or guide me within reasonable bounds. Evidence of this, this is back to Dr. Whitchurch, can be found in the account of a run-in he had with a school master. According to his own recollection, he and Martha Ann were in class when D.M. Merrick pulled out a leather strap to punish Martha Ann. When he told the girl to hold out her hand, Joseph F. shouted, don’t whip her with that. The school master turned on the young man, but the apparently stronger frontier boy licked him good and plenty. His actions resulted in his being expelled from school. Here’s the next sentence. The incident with his school master may have also influenced Brigham Young to send Joseph F. on a proselytizing mission. It’s like within a couple of months.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:11:13             That’s a great story.

Hank Smith:                      00:11:14             Something about this boy has energy.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:11:16             Send him out to preach the gospel.

Hank Smith:                      00:11:19             So imagine when he gets called as an apostle, that teacher going, oh I got beat up by that apostle when he was a teenager.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:11:27             That is a funny thought. He does have it rough, but that mission seems to help him. It is interesting that in the 30 month decline that he has, ’cause it goes on for several years, he gives two talks that are of particularly interesting topics. He gives an address in 1916 in General Conference called In the Presence of the Divine. In it he talked about the nearness of the world of spirits, just exactly what we’ve been talking about and the interesting concern for us by those who have passed away. He then gives a talk in 1918 called The Status of Children in the Resurrection. Obviously we know that he’s thinking about this. He talks about mortal children are immortal beings, spirits who continue to live and progress beyond the veil. He reaffirms teachings by Joseph Smith, our first Joseph Smith prophet, Children will come forth from the grave as children, will be nurtured and reared to physical maturity by worthy parents.

                                           00:12:31             Then he says this, this is in the Improvement Era. I love this quote. It says, quote, oh how happy I have been with these children and how happy I shall be to meet them on the other side! All of this is really on his mind even prior to that five months period where he says, I have dwelt in prayer and in communication with the Spirit. But that leads us into verses one through five. John, notice that I think what he’s describing in these verses is really a pattern for inspiration in our own lives. I think if we’re always saying to ourselves, you know, the only time I ever get any inspiration is when I’m in the shower. We might be overscheduled. We might be doing too much. I too have gotten inspiration in the shower. This is a message for my own self. I’m very busy. Isn’t it interesting that this happens when he takes time to sit still, to ponder the atonement of our savior and really be thinking about the scriptures. He’s thinking about them first before he delves in. So John, if you wanna read those first five verses.

John Bytheway:               00:13:46             Section 138 verse one. On the 3rd of October in the year 1918, I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures and reflecting upon the great atoning sacrifice that was made by the Son of God for the redemption of the world and the great and wonderful love made manifest by the Father and the Son in the coming of the Redeemer into the world. That through His Atonement and by obedience to the principles of the gospel, mankind might be saved. While I was thus engaged, my mind reverted to the writings of the apostle Peter to the primitive saints scattered abroad throughout Pontus, Galacia, Cappadocia and other parts of Asia where the gospel had been preached after the crucifixion of the Lord.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:14:33             This is exactly where we were just reading, so we already have made reference to that. This is Peter addressing the Saints in these various parts of Asia. This is what he hears. Let’s keep going. I do wanna say, I do think this sets a pattern for revelation. If we are really trying to commune with the Spirit, we have to take time to be quiet and ponder and listen.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:01             I need to give a little shout out to Dr. Rosalynde Welch, John, earlier this year. Such a blessing to do this show ’cause people say things and they change your perspective entirely. She said the text is a springboard, it’s a place that I can go to meet the Lord. I can ask him my questions there. He can answer them on any topic using the medium of the text as a way to open my mind, touch my heart, and to convey ideas to me. It’s not about knowing where to go in the scriptures, right? Like, oh, I wouldn’t know where to go. Just go in.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:15:40             Absolutely. It really is a beautiful way to try and seek revelation. Hank, if you wouldn’t mind reading verses six through 10.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:53             Section 138, I opened the Bible and read the third and fourth chapters of the first epistle of Peter. Hey, we did that. And as I read, I was greatly impressed more than I had ever been before with the following passages. This is verse seven. For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust that he might bring us to God being put to death in the flesh, but being quickened by the Spirit: by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:16:46             Why do you think he brings up Noah, the times of Noah? What do we know about the times of Noah?

John Bytheway:               00:16:55             Yeah, good point.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:16:57             It really doesn’t get more wicked than that. I mean our understanding is that you couldn’t even raise children because there was so much wickedness around you. And yet that’s the example he brings up. Peter’s bringing up Noah and my thought on that is if the people of Noah’s time are among the ones that are being taught, doesn’t that give us hope for our loved ones? That might seem far, far off of the path. It really does bring us lively hope. Peter is discussing Noah, this specific time of Noah. I mean he is saying only eight could be saved. Then in verse 11 we read, as I pondered over these things which are written, the eyes of my understanding were opened and the Spirit of the Lord rested upon me and I saw the host of the dead both small and great. Why is that included? Why does he include that? He sees the small and the great, whether you were big in this life, whether you were small in this life, we’re all there together. Maybe it’s showing us that all the things we think matter, we all end up in the same spot.

                                           00:18:25             They’re gathered together in one place in innumerable company of spirits of the just. He sees the righteous. These are the folks who have sacrificed in the similitude of the Son of God that they had suffered tribulation in their redeemer’s name and all of these had departed the mortal life. In verse 14, firm in the hope, we get hope again, firm in the hope of a glorious resurrection through the grace of God the Father, the Only Begotten Son Jesus Christ. And in verse 15 I beheld that they were filled with joy and gladness and were rejoicing together because the day of their deliverance was at hand. They were waiting. They were waiting for the advent of the Son of God into the Spirit World to declare their redemption from the bands of death. What a cool thing to see. Can you imagine seeing this? They are awaiting.

                                           00:19:27             Why are they waiting? Why are they waiting so fervently? It says their sleeping dust was to be restored unto its perfect frame, bone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the spirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fullness of joy. This is an exciting time. They’re gonna be reunited with their body. This is, they’re seeing the Savior, the advent of the Son and I think it’s interesting. He teaches them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection, the redemption of mankind from the fall and from individual sins on conditions of repentance. Then here is new revelation. We know some of this from Peter. This next verse 20 is new. We don’t know this. This is new revelation. Do you wanna read verse 20?

John Bytheway:               00:20:22             But unto the wicked he did not go and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:20:33             He did not go amongst the wicked. When I very first read that I thought well that’s interesting ’cause in life didn’t the Savior always go amongst the troubled souls? I mean it seemed like that was his mission was amongst the troubled souls.

Hank Smith:                      00:20:49             It seems it might even be merciful when you’re in that dark of a place and light comes in that bright, it’s almost like being in a dark room and someone shines a flashlight right in your face. You’re, it’s not helpful.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:21:04             I actually really like that. It’s interesting that Joseph F. marvels. It says in verses 25 through 30 said, I marveled, for I understood the Savior spent about three years in his ministry among the Jews and those of the House of Israel endeavoring to teach them the everlasting gospel and call them to repentance. And then he says in the next verse, few hearkened to his voice, very few really hearkened and rejoiced in His presence and received salvation at His hands. We’re really talking about the Savior from the time of his death to his resurrection, which technically we always say three days but it’s like half. So it’s like two and a half days. He’s thinking in his head, how could anything really have happened in that short amount of time, where even where he has been on the earth three years and so few really listened. He says in verse 27, but the ministry among those who were dead was limited to the brief time intervening between the crucifixion and his resurrection.

                                           00:22:13             And in 28, I wondered at the words of Peter wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison who sometimes were disobedient when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labors among them in so short a time. And I wondered, he’s thinking this through again, I wondered, my eyes were open and my understanding quickened and I perceived that the Lord did not go in person amongst the wicked and disobedient who had rejected the truth. But instead he organizes his forces. Ooh, this is where it gets good.

                                           00:22:57             He organizes his forces. I mean keep in mind we are in World War I or at least getting close to the end of World War I and who does he pick? He picks the great and mighty noble ones to be the ones to go amongst his sons and daughters who either never heard the message or chose him not, he provides another way. And this is a cool way ’cause I think if Eve showed up and started teaching me, I’d be like, you know there might be something to this. I think it’s beautiful. So we gotta read this part. I love this part. Do one of you wanna read 30 through 32?

Hank Smith:                      00:23:53             Verse 30. But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel. Thus was the gospel preached, that those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:24:32             We’re learning that there is an opportunity in the Spirit World for those of us, and I know there’s a lot of us, who are almost in a way tortured with the idea of what’s gonna happen to these people we love? Not only what’s gonna happen to these people we love, what’s gonna happen to their children and what’s gonna happen to their children? What reassurance is there that there is a plan in place for the people who choose not to follow in this life? I don’t know that you could get anything more merciful than that. I think it’s interesting that a lot of religions think of a sovereign God and all powerful kind of stern God, but could anything be more tender than those of you who chose me not, I’m sending the great and mighty noble ones to bring you back. Maybe one of the most beautiful things as a mother who worries for her children. I’m a mother. I worry for my children. I see it in the hearts of the women around me. I see it in within my extended family. I hear it in the quiet whispers of women to other women. And I’m sure it happens with men too, actually. I don’t know. Do men talk about this stuff? I think they do, but certainly the women do. It is true, raw pain and worry and concern that can become all consuming. I think it’s really amazing.

Hank Smith:                      00:26:14             You get so burdened by guilt of what could I have done differently? What should I have done differently? I should have had family home evening more regularly. I should have been better about reading the scriptures. And the guilt can become paralyzing. And that’s not the Lord’s way.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:26:35             It’s not the Lord’s way. And that’s what he’s telling us. Quit beating yourselves up. Could you have done better? Probably. But don’t worry, dear daughter or son, there is something prepared for those who you love most. And don’t worry, I am sending the best of the best to go retrieve your loved ones and teach them. They do have to come unto the Lord. They have to repent, they have to be obedient, they have to be taught, they have to accept. It should comfort our hearts, for all of us who are worried for loved ones, who are turning away.

John Bytheway:               00:27:18             Yeah as you were saying, for those who are beating themselves up with regrets and I should have, I could have, I would have. I wanna add one word to a very well-known scripture. Actually, this is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of my children and skipping to 2 Nephi, and I am able to do my work.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:27:44             I love that. It is his work. And man, didn’t he plan it out neat? When you hear who’s assembled among them in 38, among the great and mighty ones who were assembled in the vast congregation of the righteous were Father Adam, the Ancient of Days and the father of all, And our glorious Mother Eve, and importantly, with many, many of her faithful daughters who had lived through the ages and worshiped the true and living God. There’s some really neat things there and I’m gonna spend some time on Eve, but I wanna keep listing our amazing list of mighty noble ones. I do have to say that means that Eve also was given power and authority because he clearly says his forces were clothed with power and authority and that Eve and these faithful daughters had that power and authority and are among the great and mighty noble ones. But we’re gonna come back to Eve because I’m gonna spend a lot of time on Eve. I gotta go to the rest. Abel, Seth, Noah, Shem, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Elias, Malachi, Elijah, the prophets of the Nephites. Joseph Smith, father Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff. Do not fear my children. I just sent the most amazing, well-trained, best organized, best equipped, smartest, sharpest, most loyal, amazing humans to live on this earth to save your loved ones.

Hank Smith:                      00:29:40             He just throws in there, and all the Book of Mormon prophets.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:29:44             And all the Book of Mormon prophets.

Hank Smith:                      00:29:45             Wait what?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:29:47             And they are there to bring back his beloved children. He doesn’t wanna see us suffering and mourning. He doesn’t wanna see us looking at our children as one chronic project of disappointment.

Hank Smith:                      00:30:05             That could be my autobiography title.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:30:10             He’s saying, I’ve got it. I have got it guys, love your kids. Love your loved ones. Love them for who they are. Do not think further that they have disappointed that their generations are going to disappoint. I’ve got it. I do wanna just share an experience of my husband. I have a wonderful husband, Christopher Wilkinson, who is a convert to the church. I wonder what his great-grandmother Brown thought when her daughter chose to no longer go to church. His great-grandmother Brown, I have her Bible sitting on my front desk in my front room, has all of their birth dates and death dates. But great-grandmother Brown, I’m sure she mourned that his grandmother stopped attending. I’m sure she worried. What about his children? We have mighty forces among us on this side of the veil and those mighty forces went and rescued my husband. Here it is generation after generation after generation later. And what happens, he has amazing friends that invite him to seminary. He has a girlfriend who insisted, you gotta take the missionary discussions. He told her, only day I can do it is Sunday ’cause he was so sure Mormons didn’t work on Sunday.

                                           00:31:39             And she said, no problem, we can make that happen. But his story is so sweet and tender, he didn’t know how to pray. It had been lost. He didn’t know how to pray. And so he took those first discussions, just sure that that would be enough to tide his girlfriend over. She had an amazing family. I have to shout out to that family. They really did a good job bringing him into the gospel, at least influencing him towards the missionaries. What’s so lovely is that in, I don’t know what number discussion it was, they said, now you need to pray and ask if you need to be baptized.

                                           00:32:20             And my husband’s first thought was, I don’t even know how to pray, but they gave him a prayer card and he read the prayer card and when it came down to should I be baptized? That spirit of Elijah, I believe it is all of that, zoomed down on him, he said the most… he’s never had a feeling ever. Grandma Brown is smiling in heaven, she’s smiling in heaven. And he got up and he said, I guess I’m getting baptized. Now I need to go home and tell my parents I’ve been taking the discussions. But his story doesn’t stop there. He decided a year later he wanted to go on a mission and he went in and told his parents and his parents who were very loving about him getting baptized. They’re wonderful people. They were very loving about him getting baptized. But when he came to them and said he wanted to go on a mission, he felt so strongly these sisters had taken time out of their life to come and teach him the gospel, teach him to pray, teach him these things. They said, we aren’t sure about the mission thing.

                                           00:33:35             Your friends aren’t gonna be out there for this and we’re not gonna support a mission. And he went to his bishop discouraged and said, Bishop, I don’t have a mission fund. I haven’t saved since I was a little boy to go on a mission. And that amazing bishop said, oh don’t you worry, we have plenty of people who will donate so you can go on a mission. And he made him a promise. He said, I promise you if you go it’ll bless your family immeasurably and by the end of your mission your parents will be supporting your mission. And he said, you know what? He kind of chuckled. They don’t know my parents. I’m not sure they’re ever gonna be on board with this mission thing. Within a few weeks his father, my wonderful father-in-law went to pick him up, took him to Mr. Mac, bought him all of his suits, all of his luggage.

                                           00:34:29             Now imagine this is your son that you’re not even sure what you think about what he’s going to do. That’s a loving dad. That’s a loving dad. Took him out and did end up supporting him and his mission. But the neatest story is that while he is serving, the missionaries come knock on his mom’s door. She assures them, I’m not interested at all, but I do wanna know what my son’s doing out there. So come on in and sit down and they start meeting with her regularly. His twin starts meeting with the missionaries. His twin gets baptized while he’s on his mission and his mother flew out and was the last baptism of his mission. He baptized his mom, but Grandma Brown saw that beautiful work come forward and save what she worried about those future generations. We have incredible troops here. We have incredible troops there.

                                           00:35:30             Let us take peace in what our beautiful, loving, heavenly Father has put in place and have peace, truly have peace. I have seen this within loved ones that I have. They feel the disappointment of the parents. Can’t you see anything good that I do? Can’t you see the good in me? I am not just a lost project. I think we have to do our part as loved ones and parents to love them, show them the love of our Father in heaven for he has his troops in place. We cannot look at our loved ones that have gone away as a disappointment. Show them the love that their heavenly parents have for them that their heavenly Father has for them.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:26             I think a lot of the time as parents we treat them poorly out of fear. We’re scared and what you’ve taught us is, can calm your fear. Gonna be okay. They might have a rough path, but so have all of us. Sometimes as parents we forget we went through our own rough stages. I’m reminded of Larry Dahl. John, I don’t think I’ve ever told you this story. When he was a kid, he burned down a barn. When he was older, one of his boys broke a window and he went to go get after him and yell at him and his wife said, windows are cheaper than barns.

John Bytheway:               00:37:03             So funny.

Hank Smith:                      00:37:05             Like, remember you used to walk that path?

John Bytheway:               00:37:09             If only we had a book about a father with two rebellious sons and maybe about a king with four sons who are out trying, not just who have left the church, but are trying to destroy the church. If only we had a book about another father. You see where I’m going? With all the feeling of a tender parent. Lehi, Laman and Lemuel you know they can come back. The prodigal son knows. The first thing he thinks of, I will go to my father. He knows he can come back. There’s an element of you’re okay. You’ll figure this out. I figured it out and you will too and I’ll be here.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:37:53             A couple of weeks ago, a man named Ben Tingey, he’s our stake president’s son. Lovely family got up and in his talk at the end he said, we all have heard that saying that you’re only as happy as your saddest child, but then he said, that couldn’t be true. Look at our Father in heaven. He encompasses joy and how many of his children are astray?

John Bytheway:               00:38:26             Jacob chapter 5 I know is one of Hank’s favorites, Zenos’s allegory, the wild and tame olive trees, and it’s actually an A of a Q and A. It’s the A. The Q is the end of Jacob four. How is it possible that these, after having rejected the true redeemer, I mean doesn’t that get everybody’s attention, will ever build upon it? Well let me tell you what Zenos said. There is the Lord over the vineyard who knows when to come, when to visit, when to prune. He knows exactly how to bring forth fruit. He does everything for his vineyard. He tells us many times what more could be done for my vineyard? But he never ever gives up.

Hank Smith:                      00:39:10             Yeah. And at the end he sends in his troops.

John Bytheway:               00:39:14             Mm-hmm.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:39:14             He sends his troops. That’s right. I love that. I think that’s perfect. That ties in wonderfully here. Thank you. Our glorious Mother Eve and her daughters. Where can we even begin with that? If you’re one of the women who live at this time and you hear this vision because they reprinted this vision in basically a publication, the Improvement Era, the Relief Society magazine, the Young Women’s Journal. It gets printed in the Deseret News. It also gets printed in the Utah Genealogical Society magazine or something to that effect. It gets printed everywhere. So people read this, they read this. We’re amongst the great and mighty noble ones. Now the early Latter-day Saint women knew this. I believe they knew this. They had been writing about Eve and articles about these women coming down, her daughters coming down. I like to call it a chain of enlightened women.

                                           00:40:21             In fact, I made a graph that you guys have that shows that idea. It’s obviously a funny chart that I’ve made, but I’m showing about these early Latter-day Saint women write a lot about these women. They had a early newspaper called the Women’s Exponent. They write a lot of thoughts and ideas. It starts in 1872. It changes into the Relief Society magazine. They’re seeking, they’re searching. They want, I think, in their writings to have acknowledgement of these women. Emmaline B. Well’s daughter Annie Cannon writes an article which I brought along. I have a copy of the Women’s Exponent article here. In it Annie is celebrating and this is a series of articles that gets published by her and her mother and they are celebrating these glorious daughters of Eve. She talks about Eve the mother of all living, Sarah, Rebecca, Miriam, Ruth, Huldah, Queen Esther.

                                           00:41:39             She goes into Mary and Martha. She discusses Lucy Mack Smith. She talks about Hypatia. She was learned in the ancient Greek philosophy. She talks about Sappho a Greek muse. They talk about Queen Elizabeth of England, Catherine II of Russia. They go through Queen Victoria all the way down to more modern examples of Margaret Fuller, Julia Ward Howe, Lucy Stone and Susan B. Anthony down to us. She says in the last paragraph, now is the time for the younger women to come forth and take hold and they must not be weary in well-doing. The way has been paved through adverse circumstances and now in the enlightenment of the world with all the new advantages they can gain the goal for which these noble characters have been striving. I love that she’s calling out and saying, look, you are a part of this chain of daughters, of Eve, these glorious women who have come down through the times.

                                           00:42:54             Now it’s up to us to carry that on. They wrote a lot about Eve and these women in the Bible as if they’re searching and seeking and wanting to know more about them. Emmaline will write a series where she compares the women of her time to these women, these daughters of Eve. We have, here’s just a couple of examples. This is in 1908 by the way. She’s the General Relief Society President when Joseph F. Smith has his vision. Can you imagine when she first reads the vision? Eve and her glorious daughters, she’s thinking I’ve been trying to write about this for all of these years and tell you about these glorious daughters and what they have to add and how important they are. I want you to just feel the spirit of this passage where she takes these women that she’s surrounded by, that she’s known in her life and she says, we have this great legacy from Eve, a divine inheritance from our Father in heaven.

                                           00:44:06             We have these beautiful traits passed down to us. This is a series of articles called LDS Women of the Past. She wrote several of these and listen to what she says. Zina Diantha Huntington Young like the madonna was the embodiment of all that was loveliest in motherhood. Mary Isabella Hales Horne is not an being like Debra of old or Queen Elizabeth of modern times who instituted and carried forward some of the greatest reforms. Leonora Callister Cannon Taylor and other were heroines chosen to usher in the last dispensation. Phoebe Whitmer Carter Woodruff had the blood of conquerors in her veins. Joan of Arc was one they always wrote about too. Lucy Mack Smith’s soul shown through her eyes. She had the gifts of prophecy and was endowed with the powers to bless her sisters and heal the sick. Emma Smith had a noble appearance and was in fact a queen in her home.

                                           00:45:04             Eliza R. Snow was a poet of extraordinary ability, whose poetic style recalled the Hebraic. And this is killer because we’ve already talked about Mary Fielding Smith. Listen to what she says about Mary Fielding. Oh, it’s exactly what you’re expecting. Mary Fielding Smith was a commanding figure, a sort of marshal bearing the carriage of a woman who could lead an army to battle. She was a mother of Israel who was as heroic as the Spartan mothers. What a legacy we have from Eve. We are those daughters. Do we realize it? Our beloved prophet who just passed away. I’m convinced every single woman in the church needs to read this talk. It’s called The Influence of Women. In it President Russell Nelson says this quote, women have been at the center of our Heavenly Father’s plan from the beginning. God’s plan of salvation was dependent upon the heroic actions of two valiant women.

                                           00:46:13             Eve, the mother of all living, and Mary, the mother of our Lord Jesus Christ. This is a great picture that a nun made. We have Eve holding the apple. She’s reaching out over generations of time to one of her sisters, Mary, and she places her hand on the womb of Mary’s stomach. This is incredible. When you notice the bottom of the picture, here’s the serpent, the snake. Notice that Mary’s foot in her womb is the Savior. That’s the key. The Savior is in her womb and her foot is crushing the head of the serpent. It shows us that heavenly Father loves his daughters. I know he loves his sons too. He loves his sons too, but he loves his daughters. We can seek after those gifts, those divine gifts. I do think that’s part of our incorruptible inheritance. I know it’s an entirely different topic, but can we know where we’re going if we don’t truly know who we are?

                                           00:47:24             We are sons and daughters of heavenly parents who love us. In order for us to understand the tender plan that they’ve put in place and what they have aligned for our loved ones, to save them with the troops and where we’re all going. President Nelson went on to say quote, sisters, you have a divine endowment or a divine inheritance that allows you to literally change lives. This is particularly true as we engage in the divine mandate to gather Israel. Anytime we help anyone find the covenant path and stay on it, we are helping gather Israel. No one does this better than you. As mothers, leaders, teachers, sisters and friends, you are preparing future generations of the Lord’s church and world, and what do we know now from that vision we just read? We are on the other side as part of those great and mighty noble troops.

John Bytheway:               00:48:29             President Dallin H. Oaks gave a talk in 1983. October ’83 conference called The Great Plan of Happiness. Listen to this, he said, some Christians condemn Eve for her act, concluding that she and her daughters are somehow flawed by it. Not the Latter-day Saints. Informed by revelation we celebrate Eve’s act and honor her wisdom and courage in the great episode called The Fall. So not only do we see in verse 39 our glorious Mother Eve, but I love that it’s followed by, with many of her faithful daughters. I don’t know my world history that well, but I’ve wondered, did womanhood in general take a hit because of this false idea of Eve?

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:49:19             Absolutely. The curse of Eve. It then gave a reason for women to be subjugated. This has affected thousands of years of women’s treatment. I enjoy listening to Evangelicals talk about the Bible ’cause they’re so animated and they tell a Bible story and you can remember it in your head. One day I was listening and I heard ’em talk about Eve and it broke my heart. It almost has made me not go back to listening to them because I thought, how could they be so off on how they think of Eve? I just wanna share something with you that I think is incredibly powerful and it comes from Helen Mar Kimball Whitney in 1884, there in the height of persecution over polygamy. I want you to hear what she writes to the broader nation in the Cincinnati Enquirer, which is actually quite a good size publication for the time.

                                           00:50:24             Again, this is 1884 Cincinnati, to the broader nation. What does she tell them? Keep in mind, women in the 19th century are grappling with questions of reform. How can we improve the lives of women? They’re not talking about anything radical. They’re basically talking about how can we get out of abusive marriages if we’re in them, how can we own property and can we get the right to vote? Very basic rights is what they’re talking about, and the women’s rights advocates of the 19th century know that they have a real problem with the conception of Eve. They’re so puzzled by it. They think, how are we gonna fix this? We gotta fix the conception of Eve. They’re gonna try and rewrite the Bible in 1890, the Women’s Bible, Elizabeth Cady Stanton to try and change the conception of Eve. But isn’t it interesting that six years before that project begins, actually I don’t have the exact timeframe of the project of the Women’s Bible with me, but it’s relatively the 1890s.

                                           00:51:34             Helen Mar Kimball Whitney writes this to the broader nation, quote, had we nothing more than the present translation of your Bible to depend upon, we should be as much at sea concerning the gospel in our future state as the rest of the world appear to be. And I want you to hear this. I want you to hear her testify of the prophet Joseph Smith here. This happens over and over and over again. For women out there today who wonder about the Prophet Joseph Smith, your early sisters knew him. They testify of him over and over how the restoration of the gospel brought goodness and women’s progress into their lives. That’s a little bit about what I’m writing in a little part of my book. I want to just say this. She goes on to say, and Helen Mar Kimball Whitney, I should say, was one of the wives sealed to Joseph.

                                           00:52:31             She knew Joseph. It’s interesting that a lot of people kind of attack her story, but she knew Joseph. She is not complaining that she was sealed to Joseph. In fact, she goes forward and says, the revelations given to us through the Prophet Joseph Smith throw new light upon the scripture and a great deal that was once a dead letter can now be interpreted and we therefore take a more consistent and enlightened view of scripture, which previous to this was a sealed book. She’s talking about the Book of Mormon. She goes on to say in this talking about Joseph Smith’s translation of the Book of Mormon, we find no reflection cast upon Eve. The vision verifies this, Joseph F.’s vision also verifies this. But we find the following among the last words that Lehi spoke to his sons when he was feeble and trembling with age and she quotes.

                                           00:53:27             2 Nephi 2:23-24, quote, And now behold, if Adam had not transgressed, he would not have fallen, but he would have remained in the Garden of Eden and all things which were created must have remained in the state that they were and they must have remained forever and had no end and they would have had no children. Therefore, they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery, doing no good for they knew no sin. End quote. She’s speaking that the Book of Mormons sets straight the necessity of Eve to partake and she goes on to quote verse 25. Quote, But behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of Him who knoweth all things. Adam fell that men might be, men are that they might have joy. This is a radical principle, unique to the Latter-day Saints.

                                           00:54:31             The rest of women are trying to figure out how can we rewrite the Bible and Helen Mars like we got it. It’s right here. I have spent years studying women’s history. I can testify from the bottom of my heart and this gets so overlooked. How beautiful the restoration of the gospel was for women. They really do consider it part of bringing progress to women. They tie it in with improving their lives. They testify of the Prophet Joseph Smith over and over again and here it is. This conception that has brought the subjugation of women from the beginning of time. The Book of Mormon sets it straight. You have got this wrong. Joseph F. Smith’s vision solidifies this conception. You know, I think it’s really neat that Susa Young Gates has a special relationship with Joseph F. Smith. He will come by her home a few days after the vision and tell her about it and let her read it. When it’s printed in The Relief Society magazine in January is when they print it. She writes some comments about her thoughts as a woman as she reads this vision, what she thought of it and what her conceptions were at the time again, so Susa Young Gates, she’s Brigham Young’s daughter and they reprint it in the magazine and I’ve got it here.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:09             It’s also in the Come, Follow Me manual this week.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:56:13             It is. Lisa Olsen Tait writes a great article on this with Susa Young Gates that everyone should read, but in the end of this, after they’ve printed out the vision, she adds her own commentary. She says, quote, several points in this heavenly revelation appeal at once to the student. Women are naturally comforted with the reference to our glorious Mother Eve and many of her faithful daughters referred to as assisting in the work of preparing the spirits of the dead to receive the gospel. This is unusual, the mention of women’s labors on the other side, while the direct view of them associated with ancient and modern prophets and elders confirms the noble standard of equality between the sexes, which has always been a feature of this church. The vision’s principle message to the people is a clarion call for them to awake to the immediate necessity of looking after their dead.

                                           00:57:15             How happy are the members of the Relief Society in the remembrance of their recent great activities and studies in genealogy, they’ve been studying genealogy in their Relief Society magazine. She goes on to say in genealogy is a necessary adjunct to temple work and beyond all in what humility we think our heavenly Father that the heavens are open, the vision is to his mouthpiece to whom he has declared such truths must come. What a marvelous close, this long and extraordinary labor of President Smith this vision marks. May the people and especially our sisters, rise to the measure of fullness in response to this heavenly manifestation. What is she challenging the sisters to do? Do the work, do the genealogy work. That was her passion. She writes a book of surnames to help with this work. She’s constantly insisting we’ve gotta keep genealogy in the manuals. We’ve gotta go and do this temple work. It is a clarion call for us to go and do our part.

John Bytheway:               00:58:24             I just keep thinking of this, such an interesting question to ask. Who threw Eve under the bus and who took her out and put her on a throne? It’s right here.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:58:38             Absolutely.

John Bytheway:               00:58:39             So wonderful.

Hank Smith:                      00:58:40             I like what you said there, Lori. The Restoration set the record straight on Eve and women.

John Bytheway:               00:58:47             And women, and her faithful daughters. Yes.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          00:58:50             Yes. As a scholar of Latter-day Saint women, read their writings, read how they testified of the Prophet Joseph Smith and your heart will be softened if you have any issues. It is there how much it meant to them in their lives. When people say to me, you studied women’s history in the church, and I’m sure that’s kind of hard to do. I assure them that it has been beautiful. My testimony is strengthened from their words. They knew him. They dwelt with him, they testify of him. They in by no means think of Joseph Smith of ever doing harm, but only bringing progress and goodness to women. I really think that’s misunderstood. I really think that’s misunderstood. That is what women need to seek after. It’s interesting, you see a lot of dialogue on Joseph Smith and polygamy, but they rarely look at what the women said.

John Bytheway:               01:00:00             Who actually knew him.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:00:01             Yeah, why don’t they look at what the women said? They loved their prophet. I love the Prophet Joseph Smith. I know he was a prophet of God. I believe this Restoration did bring advancement and progress to womankind.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:22             We’ve said it before, John. Sometimes we get offended on behalf of people we don’t listen to.

John Bytheway:               01:00:27             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:29             Well, let’s read what they had to say maybe before we tell everyone how oppressed they were. Lori, let’s finish out here. Take us to the end of section 138.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:00:40             I think it’s really important that we finish with 53 through 60. Really, all of this is for naught if we don’t do our part, we’ve had a prophet that has testified and told us over and over again, your life will change by attending the temple. You’ve got to participate in this work. Here it is. So let’s read. Would one of you like to read 53 through 60?

John Bytheway:               01:01:08             Section 138 verse starting in verse 53, the Prophet Joseph Smith and my father Hyrum Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff and other choice spirits who were reserved to come forth in the fullness of times to take part in laying the foundations of the great latter-day work, including the building of the temples and the performance of ordinances therein, the redemption of the dead, were also in the Spirit World. I observed that they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning to be rulers in the church of God even before they were born. They with many others, received their first lessons in the world of spirits and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men. I beheld that the faithful elders of this dispensation when they depart from mortal life, continue their labors in the preaching of the gospel of repentance and redemption through the sacrifice of the Only Begotten Son of God among those who are in darkness and under the bondage of sin in the great world of the spirits of the dead.

                                           01:02:17             The dead who repent, boy, that’s a loaded sentence, isn’t it? The dead who repent will be redeemed through obedience to the ordinances of the house of God. And after they have paid the penalty of their transgressions and are washed clean, shall receive a reward according to their works, for they are heirs of salvation. Thus was the vision of the redemption of the dead revealed to me, and I bear record and I know that this record is true through the blessing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Even so. Amen.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:02:55             Wow. The end speaks for itself. It’s so beautiful. The temple work. Let us get engaged. Our Father in heaven has sent his troops both on this side and the other side of the veil. Let us take heart, have peace. We learn in 137 that we’re comforted. The Lord will judge people’s hearts, our babies will be saved. Really and truthfully. This is a salve for our hearts and I love that about Section 137. 138 comforts the hearts of all those who worry for loved ones who have not chosen the gospel path. It is an invitation to love those people, love them just as they are. For our Father in heaven has a plan and has an amazing force behind him to take care of them. Let us love them. I’m so glad to have been here with you today. I just wanna close with my testimony.

                                           01:03:57             I am so grateful to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I can’t imagine my life without it. It is my whole soul. Years ago when I got the inspiration to study Latter-day Saint women, I didn’t know what a journey I was going to go on. Let me just tell you that as we study these early Saints, both the men and the women, we are buoyed up in our trials. We have courage. We understand what lively hope means, and I think there’s something so key to seeking after this knowledge, learning of them and teaching our children about them. This is right there at our fingertips. I love my Savior. I feel his arms around me in difficult times. I am so grateful for His atoning sacrifice. Also, I’ve already born testimony of the prophet Joseph Smith. I love Joseph Smith and I testify of the studies that I have done and the in-depth studies I’ve delved into. He was a prophet of God. This Restoration that has unfolded has brought such beautiful information back. It’s been added to that’s what these sections are today. Peter, Paul knew about a lively hope, an incorruptible inheritance. Joseph Smith brings it back and adds to it in the most lovely ways. Joseph F. Smith adds to that. And really it’s our heavenly Father telling us, rejoice my children. I love you.

Hank Smith:                      01:05:44             Lori. Thank you. Thank you for spending time with us today. It had been on my mind for a long time. Lori’s coming on. Lori’s gotta come on. Lori’s gotta come on. I kept texting you and kept texting you.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:05:56             He did, keep texting me and keep texting me.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:00             You don’t have to, but I’m gonna just keep texting you. And it just was, it was worth it. Yeah, it was just thank you. Thank you for taking the time to study. So good. Thank you for bringing things out we’ve never seen. And you’re right. There’s a therefore what at the end. We’ve learned all this, therefore what? Go do the work.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:06:18             Yes.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:19             Yeah, let’s get to work.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:06:20             Go do the work. Absolutely.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:22             I love it.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:06:22             Thank you for having me. I’ll tell you what, studying these two sections have been a treasure and especially through what we’ve been dealing with in my ward, it really has been an answer to my prayer. I am so grateful for these sections. So thanks for having me. It’s been an incredible few months studying this, so thank you.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:44             The Lord is good to us, isn’t he? That he lines things up for our benefit.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:06:49             Yes.

John Bytheway:               01:06:50             The gospel reaches across the street, across the world, across the veil. Yeah.

Dr. Lori Wilkinson:          01:06:56             Absolutely.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:57             And hopefully this episode is reached across the world. With that, we want to thank Dr. Lori Wilkinson for being with us today. It’s been wonderful. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen. She’s gonna love this. Our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder, who I’m sure is at work, John, on the other side of the veil. Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re wrapping up the Doctrine and Covenants on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Follow him.co. That’s follow him.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.