John Bytheway:               00:01                   And now onto part two with Dr. Alex Baugh, Doctrine and Covenants 115 to 120. One of the things I was excited to ask you today was, I don’t know if these are myths or hearsay or secondhand, thirdhand, accounts, people mention Adams altar. It’s hard to imagine there were people there that you can’t find a trace of, but Adam’s stuff is still there. Also a Nephite altar, but when I researched it, I found, oh, actually what George W. Robinson wrote was a Nephite-ish altar, which changes the meaning dramatically.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                00:39                   You’re spot on. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:40                   What can you tell us about those?

Dr. Alex Baugh:                00:42                   Well, I’m just gonna read to you what I wrote.

Hank Smith:                      00:46                   What you’re gonna read is that’s from this new book, the Voice of the Lord, exploring the Doctrine & Covenants that you edited.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                00:53                   On this same occasion we get the following report. I’m gonna summarize just a little bit. When he identified this Spring Hill, it’s so named by the brethren at that point in time as being Adam-ondi-Ahman, George W. Robinson, who’s keeping Joseph Smith’s book, this is his journal, wrote that they discovered the remains quote of an old Nephite-ish altar and tower. This location soon became known by the saints that come here and soon thereafter who settled in the area as Tower Hill and significantly, however, there was considerable speculation regarding what it was that the company actually came across in early 1844. Willard Richards, the general church recorder, began making a transcription of Joseph Smith’s journal, the scriptory book for inclusion in Joseph Smith’s official history, generally referred to as the manuscript history of the church. When Richards came across the May 19th, 1838 entry made by Robinson about the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman and the ruins the prophet’s company discovered on that occasion, Richards incorrectly altered the text to read that the remains located there were part of an old Nephite altar or tower, replacing the word Nephite-ish, written by Robinson with Nephite.

                                           02:23                   This error by Richards was later perpetuated by BH Roberts when he added the manuscript history for publication in what became known as the history of the church. The mistake by both Richards and Roberts is significant since it has led to the erroneous conclusion by some that the stone work or rubble discovered on Tower Hill was actually a remnant from the Nephite civilization in the Book of Mormon, which would’ve been about 600 BC to 400 AD as we know, when in fact the term Robinson used was Nephite-ish. So what did Robinson mean when he reported that stone ruins were Nephite-ish? It’s important to note that in the 1830s, many Latter-day Saints considered the North American Indian tribes or the indigenous people were descendants of earlier Nephite Lamanite civilization in the Book of Mormon. With that understanding, Robinson may have simply been trying to convey the idea that the prophets company, what they discovered on this occasion were the remains of what appeared to be a sacred ancient, meaning old, stone structure of some kind erected by the Native Americans, meaning Nephite-ish, not Book of Mormon.

                                           03:36                   It’s significant to note that George Robinson’s description of what Joseph Smith’s company discovered on this occasion aligns with the findings from an archeological excavation conducted in 1979 and 80 by Ray Metheny, a former professor of anthropology at Brigham Young University. Metheny and his team concluded that what Joseph Smith and his company discovered on this occasion were the remains of a stone structure that was part of an ancient Native American burial ground dating to the early part of the late woodland period, which is 500 to 1000AD I share that with you. Number one, it’s not Adamic altar. Number two, it’s not Nephite, it’s Native American. That bears out. Why did people say they saw Adam’s altar? Well, when they come up there and they go to this site and they see this remains, those who are there say, well, yeah, this is where Adam offered sacrifices.

                                           04:38                   This was his altar. They’re naturally assuming, oh, this is Adam’s altar. It’s not Adamic and it’s not Nephite, it’s Nephite-ish meaning ancient Native American. We’ve got to eliminate some of the speculation on this, but again, to the Latter-day Saints, if they came up there, they’d go, this must be Adam’s altar. Eliza Snow comes up and says, I saw Adam’s altar. Well, you thought you did, but it’s not that that should not be a demeaning of faith by any means. It’s just that they did not know and understand that this is where it happened, where Adam did offer sacrifices according to Joseph Smith, but what remains there was not from Adam or Nephite the Nephite civilization.

John Bytheway:               05:26                   I’m so grateful for good scholars and scholarship like that. I tried to hunt it down myself and that’s when I found, well, actually it was Nephite-ish and I thought, well, that changes the meaning dramatically. I appreciate that restatement. This is a special place from what we’re reading right here.

Hank Smith:                      05:43                   Yeah. Alex, for those listening, let me make sure I have it right. Maybe those listening, it’ll benefit them because I wanna make sure I get this right. This is why we have great scholarship like that. We don’t have to perpetuate things that aren’t true. Alex has done incredible work here to find out, okay, what happened? Joseph Smith goes up to Spring Hill, which is outside of Caldwell County. It’s north in Davies County where Lyman White lives. So while there he received section 116 saying, this is the place Adam-ondi-Ahman, which was referenced earlier in earlier sections of the Doctrine & Covenants. They also find an altar there, and according to George Robinson, while there they find the remains of some stone structure. Joseph calls it Nephite-ish, which George Robinson, his clerk, writes Joseph called it Nephite-ish, ISH. Later on Willard Richards is basically copying that into another history changes Nephite-ish to Nephite. B.H. Roberts using Willard Richards history perpetuates that same idea. I know this is getting complicated, Alex, but I think I got it so far.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                07:01                   You got it. You’re right on.

Hank Smith:                      07:03                   Your research has shown that the word Nephite-ish is not Nephite. Nephite-ish. Those are two different words, like the Nephites versus Nephite. Then in 1979, there’s some archeological work done there from Dr. what’d you say his name was?

Dr. Alex Baugh:                07:21                   It was Ray Metheny.

Hank Smith:                      07:22                   Metheny. He says, yes, what they found was probably between 500 to 1000AD, which you would say is Nephite-ish, like Nephite makes sense, Native American. But the reason a lot of Latter-day Saints and even today, Latter-day Saints go there and say, oh, Joseph Smith found Adam’s altar is conflating two different ideas that Joseph would talk about Adam there, and Adam offered sacrifice here. Oh, and here’s this pile of rubble. They conflate those two. Those statements get perpetuated. How did I do?

Dr. Alex Baugh:                08:01                   That’s well done. In summary, you can just basically say it wasn’t Adamic, it doesn’t come from Adam. It’s thousands and thousands of years later. B, it’s not Nephite, it’s of Native American origin. This would be the Woodland period that’s all up and down the Mississippi Valley. It’s prevalent. We can date that with great accuracy. But again, if you were a saint living in Missouri and you go up there and they say, well, this is where Adam offered sacrifices, you immediately associate what ruins you see there as being, oh, that must be his altar. Well, no.

Hank Smith:                      08:41                   And Joseph Smith didn’t say that.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                08:45                   He didn’t say that.

Hank Smith:                      08:46                   Yeah.

John Bytheway:               08:47                   My understanding is for years, tourists would grab stones and take them home.

Hank Smith:                      08:53                   Well, if you’re gonna find…

John Bytheway:               08:53                   I got a piece of Adam’s altar here. Right over there by the dresser and you’re like ah.

Hank Smith:                      08:58                   Alex that is so helpful. John I liked what you said, good scholarship. That takes 1. training, 2. time and effort to comb through all of that Alex.

John Bytheway:               09:14                   And the importance of finding the original source. Where’s the first time this was written down and that was your George Robinson statement.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                09:23                   I was not the major player in that, but there was intentional purpose to try to help Latter-day Saints who loved to go there, have a good experience and know what it really is. The signage there at Adam-ondi-Ahman today is so good and it will explain some of these things that they’re fables. It does not fit with the documentation. Let me just add something there to the Adam-ondi-Ahman settlement. Fortunately, because of LaMar Berrett and I got to work with him on a few things before he retired and passed away, but he did extensive research on the settlement side of Adam-ondi-Ahman. There were no brick homes, but they have found some remnants of the LDS occupation. LaMar Berrett was able to find Lyman White’s cabin. I think we can safely say that while they were on their horses, they did not have George Robinson write this information.

                                           10:27                   They probably went to Lyman White’s where they were staying and recorded what they had experienced that day. That cabin has been found. It has been marked. It’s a little bit hard to find, but it is there and we’re absolutely certain that’s where it was. He was also building a larger cabin up on the hill for those who have been there. If you walk off the hill, what we call Tower Hill, there’s a marker there where that stone structure was located. But if you walk off the hill there, off the hill a little bit is where another cabin was being built. At the time that was unfinished, that Lyman White before the Latter-day Saints had to leave Adam-ondi-Ahman. But it’s just a wonderful historic place. Much misunderstood but certainly sacred in terms of a sacred past. But also I want to emphasize a sacred future.

                                           11:23                   We probably can’t even envision what’s going to be there, other than something super grand and glorious. We’ll let the gospel play out and see where and how that all happens in the end, but I believe the revelation with all my heart to know that this is part of the Lord’s glorious Second Coming where he will come to his Saints and at the place where Earth’s history began. It will also be a place where it will end in some marvelous fashion. It’s worth going to it, feeling the idea of the spirit of what might have happened and what will happen.

John Bytheway:               12:04                   Hank, from now on I’m gonna call it Towerish Hill. When we go there.

Hank Smith:                      12:07                   Towerish. Now everyone listening, be careful. If you go to Adam-ondi-Ahman and just start walking around, I had a good friend, his name’s Dave Norton, lives up in northern Utah County who was trumping around in there. We actually were sent out to read our scriptures. We were there as EFY counselors. He sat down in a ticks nest and we spent the rest… We spent the rest of the day picking ticks out of Dave. So Dave, if you’re listening, when I go to Adam-ondi-Ahman these days, I do not go and sit down in the grass.

John Bytheway:               12:49                   So a memorable moment for a different reason.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                12:52                   Also called chiggers.

Hank Smith:                      12:54                   Yes. Oh man.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                12:57                   Yeah. If you tramp through a little bit, you gotta be careful.

Hank Smith:                      13:00                   Yeah, be careful.

John Bytheway:               13:01                   Just stay on the air con bus and have somebody go read the plaque.

Hank Smith:                      13:07                   That’s a great idea, Alex. Let’s keep going. Section 117.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                13:14                   Okay. The saints are encouraged to leave Kirtland. There’s land here available. Every aspect of encouragement was given, but we have a couple of our church leaders staying behind. I can understand. I’m sympathetic to them, both of whom had every reason to actually do that. But this revelation, again is part of those four that are canonized on July 8th. Joseph was trying to find out what counsel I need to give and what Lord would give for all these different things going on in Far West, but nonetheless, we are all familiar with the name of Newel K. Whitney. What a stalwart, stalwart person. He’s tried to, of course, keep the church together in Kirtland for eight years, seven, eight years. Now everybody’s leaving. Well, he needs to wrap up his business affairs and come to Missouri as well. That the first part of section 117 is a calling both William Marks.

                                           14:10                   Now, William Marks is the temporary or the, how do I say it? The replacement stake president. He’s the stake president in Kirtland. Now, as Joseph’s saying, let’s all gather to Missouri, to Far West, to Adam-ondi-Ahman and Davies County. Let’s do it before the snowfalls okay? It’s easier to travel in better weather. That’s why they say before the next snows, please come here and take up your residence for William Marks, take up your residence in Far West where he would be the stake president. Because he’s transferring as being this short-lived stake president in Kirtland, become the stake president in Far West, not surprising. Guess who was called to be the first stake president in Nauvoo, but William Marks. But he never gets to get to Missouri because by the time he’s gonna try to come en route, they’re expelled and of course they’ll be settling up in Commerce and then Nauvoo, he won’t make it there in time to fulfill that hoped for recommendation to be the stake president.

                                           15:17                   Same thing with Newel K. Whitney. He never made it to Missouri. He was trying to do his best to close up shop and come west. Sadly, there is a reproof there that I think we can take too firmly maybe, but notice again verse 11, let my servant Newel K. Whitney be ashamed of the Nicolaitane band and all their secret abominations and all of the littleness of soul before me. This is a reproof. Obviously that was probably having reference to, your New Testament scholars would probably know more about this than I would, but to the Nicolaitanes in Revelations chapter two of the New Testament Bible commentaries believe they were a heretical set who followed the teachings of a man by the name of Nicholas, who was one of the deacons of the early Christian Church who became an apostate, denied the true faith and began leading people to commit sexual immorality.

                                           16:19                   That’s not a condemnation in the sense that he’s associating with them, but I think he’s trying to resolve the debts and the problems associated with the bank failure and other things. These people are bad people, some of them back there. Leave things behind, come west. It’s not that he’s adjoining them or anything else. He’s trying to resolve these issues now to replace that effort of Newel K. Whitney, Joseph sends Oliver Granger back there. Oliver Granger is meant to settle Joseph Smith’s debts and the other problems associated with the failure of the bank. He goes back there and unfortunately he actually leads the church there for, because we’re gonna keep a group. They never come or they come really late to Nauvoo, but he’s gonna preside over the saints there for a short time. Unfortunately, he dies in 1841 and his gravestone, you can see in the Kirtland North cemetery there, his daughter is Sarah Melissa Granger Kimball, who becomes a very influential woman’s leader in the Relief Society and a terrific person. And of course it’s her little sewing group that gets the Relief Society started. That’s just a little postscript. But anyway, section 117, I wouldn’t read too harsh a condemnation on both these men, just Lord and Joseph saying, we need to close up shop, come where the saints are.

Hank Smith:                      17:57                   Yeah, I like that. Newel K. Whitney has done some incredible things. This should not be the verse that you go, okay, that’s what he’s all about. He’s not part of this apostate group. He is associating with them and the Lord’s like leave it and come and get outta there, and he is probably outta the goodness of his heart. He’s friends with some of these people. He’s trying to work it out and the Lord’s saying it’s not gonna work. Let’s go.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                18:26                   No question about it. Follow what I’m teaching you and telling you to do. Come and open that heart up and don’t try to stay any longer. Hank, you said that very, very well.

Hank Smith:                      18:38                   Alright, we’re gonna move now to 118.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                18:42                   At the beginning of the podcast. You read that wonderful introduction where we’ve lost four apostles in short order, we actually lose a couple more. It’s a call for the new members of the Quorum of the Twelve to go on a collective mission to Great Britain. Now, this would be the second mission of the Quorum leadership, but in this case, the first mission being the Heber C. Kimball, Orson Hyde mission in 1837 in which they go to the Preston area, Lancaster County in England. They’re so successful. Joseph is getting word from England of the success of these two great apostles and says, it’s time we send the missionary effort by means of the entire Quorum of the Twelve. This is an important revelation for a couple of reasons. Those are the two reasons really. We’ve got to continue the mission in a second wave, two, we’ve gotta fill that Quorum.

                                           19:45                   Let’s go to verse six. Here’s the people who are gonna be called here. John Taylor, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff, and Willard Richards. Who are the ones that we’ve lost? These are the following that will be familiar to many Latter-day Saints. The first one is John F. Boynton. Boynton is an incredible figure in early church history, but he was part of the Kirtland fallout, as is Lyman E. Johnson and Luke S. Johnson. These are two of the brothers that were part of the John Johnson, Alice or Elsa Johnson family. Then the final one is McClellan and he’s gonna cause a little bit more problems later down the road here. Well, these are the ones called to fulfill that, and you can see that now in verse six is John Taylor, John E. Page, Wilford Woodruff and Willard Richards. Now, off the top of your head, which two names stick out of those four?

                                           20:50                   Future President John Taylor and future President Wilford Woodruff. Well, look who’s stuck in the middle is John E. Page. Had John E. Page remained faithful, he outlived John Taylor, he could have been President of the Church based upon the seniority in the Quorum of the Twelve. Side note, but you can’t beat John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff for greatness as presidents. But I thought that was quite interesting and of course Willard Richards is going to play an important role as well for many years, but he dies in the 1850s. But anyway, those are the four who are called. Well, when are they supposed to go? Well, Joseph receives this revelation which says, let them go next spring and depart and go over the great waters in their promulgate, my gospel. But when are they supposed to actually make that departure? What date can we tie that in with another revelation?

Hank Smith:                      21:49                   April 26th.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                21:51                   Okay. Do you remember again, we talked about Section 115 saying that they would recommence building, but they were to come assemble at Far West, we’ll rededicate the site, we’ll start the construction and we’ll send you guys off. Most Latter-day Saints have heard the story where most of the Latter-day Saints left Far West, Caldwell County and Davies County in February and March of 1839. They make their way to Quincy, including members of the Twelve. Sure enough, April’s coming around the corner. They have a conference of the church in Quincy. The question is asked, should the Twelve go back and there fulfill the revelation?

                                           22:39                   Hold it, we just left and then we need to go back. I think it was Joseph Smith Sr., Joseph’s father said, Brigham, the will is the deed. The Lord knows you want to go, but the circumstances are such that it’s gonna be pretty hard. Brigham thinks about it and says, let’s go. It’s a little messy but by April, 1839, when the Twelve return to Far West, there were only eight ordained apostles, and unfortunately, Orson Hyde was not in good standing. Only five of the members of the Twelve who had been ordained went, but they also took Wilford Woodruff, who has now not been ordained, but he’s caught up to them. He had been in Maine and was leading a group of Latter-day Saints west. He received his letter of appointment to the Twelve telling him, come to Far West. Well he got as far as Illinois and George A. Smith was also not ordained, and he’s been added to the quorum because we’ve lost Thomas B. Marsh. Marsh is out. I know that’s a little confusing, but the point is, we have enough apostles. We have a majority quorum, seven of 12 I think. Seven of 12. So they get there. They came under cover of darkness. Of course, this was one of the Missouri antagonists, a man by the name of Sam Bogart. He’s all over the board against the Latter-day Saints. He turned out to be a real dog breath. Bad word, but my seminary teacher used that all the time. Darryl Dixon. But anyway.

Hank Smith:                      24:21                   He was a dog breath.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                24:22                   He ended up, after the Latter-day Saints left, he murdered a guy and then fled to Texas. There were some bad guys involved in all this.

Hank Smith:                      24:31                   Yeah,

Dr. Alex Baugh:                24:32                   He apparently was aware of this so-called revelation that the Twelve should return and, and he said, they won’t dare. This is the craziest thing I’ve ever heard. They were a little bit worried, but they made it there under the cover darkness and in the early morning hours, I’m guessing probably 4, 5, 6 o’clock. Well, there they had this wonderful, wonderful ceremony. I hope you don’t mind. I’m going to read Wilford Woodruff’s account. This is the only time he’s been to Missouri since, well, he came on Zion’s camp. That was it. But he wasn’t part of the Far West experience. He comes back and he’s the best journal keeper on planet Earth here. He says this in his journal that a council held at Far West by theTwelvehigh priest, elders and priests. On the 26th of April, 1839, the following resolutions were adopted. Now, there were a few other stragglers that assembled there. Resolved that the following person should no more be fellowshipped into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, but excommunicated from the same. He then lists the name of 20 individuals So they said, sorry you guys didn’t hold up

                                           25:43                   The council then proceeded to the building spot of the Lord’s house when the following business was transacted. Part of a hymn was sung on the mission of the Twelve. Elder Cutler, this is Alpheus Cutler, the master workman of the house then recommenced laying the foundation of the Lord’s house agreeable to revelation by rolling up a stone near the southeast corner. If you see that southeast corner, apparently he moved it more into place. Well, that cornerstone is still there, and John, you mentioned it and I’ll tell you a little story about that. The following of the Twelve were present. Again, this is Wilford Woodruff, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, John E. Page, and John Taylor. By the way, John E. Page and John Taylor had been ordained in December before the exodus who had been previously nominated by the First Presidency accepted by the Twelve and acknowledged by the church.

                                           26:38                   So he’s acknowledging their replacement also. Then he says they were ordained to the office of the Twelve to fill the place of those who had fallen. Darwin Chase and Norman Shear, who had recently been released from Richmond Jail. These were two young guys. They let them go. This is where Parley P. Pratt is stuck along with King Follett and some others. But these two young men were released. They met them there. Then they said that they were ordained to the office of seventies. Well, here it is. The Twelve then offered up a vocal prayer in the following order. Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt, John E. Page, John Taylor, Wilford Woodruff, and George A. Smith. There’s the new ones and the current ones, after which we sang, Adam-ondi-Ahman. There you go. And then the Twelve took the parting hand, their leave of following the Saints agreeable to revelation.

                                           27:36                   Then he mentions others who were there. Elder Cutler then placed the stone before alluded to in its regular position, after which in consequence of the peculiar situation of the saints, he thought it wisdom to adjourn until some future time when the Lord should open the way, expressing his determination then to proceed with the building. That’s straight from Wilford Woodruff’s journal. We hope maybe we can come back and finally put this thing together. But I’m just so grateful he did that. After the Saints leave, John Whitmer, who’d been a member of the Missouri presidency, along with his brother David Whitmer and W.W. Phelps, the Whitmer family, the whole clan moved to Richmond. But when the Mormons were leaving Far West, he said, well, it was in my name and in Phelps’s name, I’m gonna go back and occupy that property, which he did. He died in 1878.

                                           28:30                   He lived just a half a mile west of the temple site. The interesting thing about him is that he retained that temple property and deemed it as being sacred. He believed in the restoration. He just couldn’t come to grips with some of the leadership responsibilities and Joseph Smith in some other kinds of ways. But the point is he oversaw that property where that temple corner was part of his property. He maintained that he wouldn’t let anyone disturb it and it fell fallow. I mean, cattle would graze there, but he left the stones intact when the church purchased this property, well, it’s actually purchased by Missouri actually the Central State’s Mission President, a man by the name of Samuel O. Bennion. Then from that point, the church owns it. But the point is we just left it fallow. Then the decision was made with Alvin R. Dyer to actually go back there and restore that property a little bit.

                                           29:34                   After all, it is a temple dedicated site. The interesting thing is, is Latter-day Saints can go there and John, you mentioned it and Hank, you’ve been there. Emil Fetzer, who was the architect, planned for those stones to be embedded in cement so they wouldn’t deteriorate as much. It probably wasn’t the best thing to do, but that’s what was decided. But every time we go there, for years, I said, I want you to stand on the southeast corner where Wilford Woodruff and George A. Smith were ordained apostles. I took my kids, we went to Liberty Jail and they go, where are we going dad? I said, we’re going up to Far West. Okay, what’s up there? And I explained all these things. I said, but when we get there, I’m gonna take your picture and you’re gonna stand on the very cornerstone that George A. Smith and Wilford Woodruff were ordained apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m gonna take your picture and someday you’ll take it to your seminary class and you’ll show them when you’re talking in church history or Doctrine & Covenants. So we get up there, I think it was 1995.

Hank Smith:                      30:35                   We’re gonna be the coolest kids in the school with our picture.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                30:39                   As if that’s cool. You know, we get up there, we walk over there and sure enough, the sites people had put down these, you’ve seen them, these plexiglass covers over and my kids are going, neener, neener, neener, dad, you’re not, you can’t do it. I said, no, hold it. Let me look here. Well, there’s this gap space underneath and they’ve actually put some two by fours in there. They are really trying to stop you. Yeah, they’re gonna stop me. I move those two by fours over. You get down on your knees and you stick your hand in there. I’m gonna take your picture, you’re touching the stone and they’re going, dad, come on. No dad, no. And it’s muddy and it was, it was wet. I said, well, you get down. Sure enough, they do. This was in the days before digital photography. I can’t find that photo anywhere.

Hank Smith:                      31:34                   Oh no.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                31:34                   I can’t find it. But we came back when Lincoln turned 200 and we went to Springfield, came back and we said, yep, you’re gonna do the same thing ’cause I can’t find that photo. So I took them when they were older too. Anyways, it’s just a funny thing about it, but I do tell my students, when you go to Far West, go down there, touch that stone, send me a picture. I’ve already gotten one from fall semester. They’ve been sending them to me from time to time.

Hank Smith:                      32:00                   I think I sent one to you once.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                32:02                   You probably did Hank.

John Bytheway:               32:04                   I’m gonna do one next year.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                32:06                   So John, we need one from you.

John Bytheway:               32:09                   Okay. Deal.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                32:10                   That was a crazy diversion, but sacred ground for a lot of reasons. One of them is where the Twelve left on their mission and where George A. Smith and future president of the church Wilford Woodruff ordained apostles.

Hank Smith:                      32:25                   Well, I think we’ll give out your email address and see if we can get a couple thousand of those pictures

John Bytheway:               32:29                   People touching that stone. I remember that following this, you know, because there had been threats. You can’t come back here. As you were saying, you can’t come back to Far West, it’s too dangerous. But Brigham Young leads them under the cover of night. They do the business there exactly as outlined here in Section 118. But on their way home, they wanted to stop by apostate Isaac Russell’s house. So Theodore Turley knocks on the door and his wife says, oh, come in Brother Turley. He says, well, I can’t, I’ll lose my company. They see Isaac Russell. He said, well who’s your company? And he says, the Twelve, he repeats it. The Twelve. Basically, they fulfilled the prophecy.

Hank Smith:                      33:14                   And they had to let him know.

John Bytheway:               33:17                   He had to let him know.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                33:19                   Yeah, it meant that much.

John Bytheway:               33:20                   That we just fulfilled it. See you later. But I kind of like that idea of we’re gonna make sure this, if we have something to do with it, we’re going to make sure this revelation is fulfilled.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                33:33                   It left a real legacy of their faith, their commitment to fulfill a revelation in spite of the circumstances.

Hank Smith:                      33:43                   Yeah. Tells you about Brigham too, doesn’t it?

John Bytheway:               33:45                   Mm-hmm. Lion of the Lord.

Hank Smith:                      33:48                   Alex, section 119 has some impact on the rest of the church, even to this day.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                33:56                   No question about it.

John Bytheway:               34:00                   Has that had an impact? Hank what’s in, what’s in 119, huh?

Hank Smith:                      34:03                   Yeah, I mean Alex is dealing with the name of the church, that major change in 115. Now it’s not a new idea, but it’s gonna be implemented in the church. Tithing. Talk to us about this.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                34:16                   Well, it actually goes back to December of 1837 when they start settling in Far West. They come up into Caldwell County. The Missouri bishopric at that time again was Edward Partridge, Isaac Morley and this John Coral. They didn’t have a lot to have consecrated because they’re getting kicked around. The Missouri bishopric proposed that the Saints in Missouri be tithed 2% of their annual net worth, which would fulfill consecration. Does that make sense? If you had two cows, a wheelbarrow, I mean I can’t even figure it out. But the point is, take your net worth. What’s 2% of that? If every one of you do that, that will be our consecration. You know, you don’t have property right now or whatever. That was the effort. Now we’ve tried to explain that in the Joseph Smith Papers volume, but instead of consecrating everything to the bishop, just consecrate 2% of your net worth and we can probably sustain some of the financial situation of the church. And in other words, your consecration for this year would be 2% of what you have in your net worth.

Hank Smith:                      35:34                   They’re altering it a little bit. What they were trying to do in Jackson County. We’re not doing that up here. We’re gonna do something a little different.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                35:41                   Yeah, you don’t consecrate your entire thing and then we give you a deed, we’ve gotta jumpstart this thing 2%. You have a hundred dollars worth of property, yours is $2 of ownership. That’s what they were doing. And then here comes Joseph Smith. They’re going, well, is this going to work? He inquires and says very plainly, the revelation says, okay, the bishop’s gonna oversee this. Okay, verse one because he’s the one who has received consecrated properties before. But we need to build the temple in Far West. We have debts that we’re going to incur, but we will from here on out call our consecration, I guess you could say simply tithing. Their definition of this in this revelation is after that, after you’ve consecrated 2% of your net worth from here on out, the best way we can manage consecration is by saying after that those who have been tithed shall pay one 10th of all their interest annually. This shall be a standing law unto them forever for my holy priesthood saith the Lord. We’re not giving out consecration deeds and saying, this is yours. You give it to us and we give it back, now here’s your stewardship. Give us the surplus. Your surplus every year is 10% of your interest or income. Does that make sense?

Hank Smith:                      37:14                   I’m channeling my inner Steve Harper here. This doesn’t replace the law of consecration that we promise in the temple. That we covenant in the temple. We’re not in Jackson County anymore.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                37:26                   Your consecration and my consecration and everyone’s consecration is the same 10% of your interest annually or income. Again, they’re living consecration. It’s just your consecration is now equal across the board. Your stewardship is your personal property. And I’m trying to say we’re still living consecration just in a different format. That may or may not make sense, but they clearly understood even though today it’s a little bit easier for us in a lot of ways because we’re in a monetary society versus an agrarian one. They would’ve had to adapt somewhat. Try to figure out, okay, what is it that I would, the Lord would accept of my consecration? Tithing is the donation of one 10th of one’s income to God’s church. That’s D&C 119:3-4. Interest is understood to mean income. All members who have income should pay tithing. Interest in this context refers to any profit, compensation or increase including wages, business profits, or any other source of income.

                                           38:35                   Well, the Lord still leaves it up to the individual to this is what the guidelines are, this is what a full tithe would represent in that terminology. I do have to say I love Thomas Monson’s statement here. Every bishop can testify from personal experience that when members of the church pay their tithing honestly and faithfully, they have very little difficulty keeping the other commandments of God. It’s a great measuring tool for activity, for responsibility, for commitment in the church. Our saints do a great job. I think any bishop will say they are consecrated beings. My ward is a consecrated, and time, talents, tithing. What a great thing. This is President Oak’s testimony of tithing given in April 1994. During World War II my widowed mother supported her three young children on a school teacher’s salary that was meager.

                                           39:39                   When I became conscious that we went without some desirable things because we didn’t have enough money I asked my mother why she paid so much of her salary as tithing. I’ve never forgotten her explanation. Dallin, there might be some people who can get along without paying tithing, but we can’t. The Lord has chosen to take your father and lead me to raise you children. I cannot do without the blessings of the Lord. I obtain those blessings by paying an honest tithing. When I pay my tithing, I have the Lord’s promise that he will bless us. We must have those blessings if we are to get along. Isn’t that a great perspective? We all can testify the blessings of tithing and it’s not just monetary. It’s so many other aspects of life that seem to come together and work together for our good.

John Bytheway:               40:29                   I remember this verse from seminary a long time ago. This stone, this is Genesis chapter 28, verse 22. This stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house. And of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the 10th unto thee. That shows you the ancient roots of the idea of the 10th, which is interesting. But I think what you were teaching us, Alex, what I experienced doing tithing settlement was it was a joy to meet with those consecrated saints. Let’s put it that way. Some of those members, I saw them on Sundays. I didn’t see them in the bishop’s office very often except for a recommend or tithing settlement. But that was some of the sweetest times was those they would’ve been there no matter who the bishop was. They loved the Lord and for that they loved to of all you’ve given me, I’ll surely give the 10th to the Lord. That was a sweet time.

Hank Smith:                      41:27                   Yeah. I’ve occasionally heard critics of the church talk about this greedy church that has X amount of dollars and still takes 30 cents from this person in Africa. In my mind, the reason the church asks this is because the church, and we here, truly believe that tithing blesses the tithe payer. We believe that we would not want to take that opportunity for a blessing from someone else. I get that some people do not understand how that blesses the tithe payer, but all three of us would say, no tithing blesses me more than the money I’m giving more than the church. I do not want to miss out on those blessings. Like President Oak’s mother said.

John Bytheway:               42:19                   This is one of the easier things. It’s like simple math. Hank its that poster I saw those who danced were thought to be quite insane by those who could not hear the music. For me it’s like, oh, this is one of the easier ones.

Hank Smith:                      42:39                   What does Paul say? The natural man cannot receive the things of God. They are darkness to him.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                42:47                   I’ve always told my children, I promise you, you can always get along better with nine-tenths than 10 tenths. It’s kind of incongruent faith. It doesn’t make sense on paper, but you’ll be just fine. You will receive blessings. Lord pours them out. You don’t have room enough to receive it.

Hank Smith:                      43:05                   Just personally, I love money. It’s a bad thing, but I mean it’s pretty toxic. I even ironed my money when I was a kid. I love money. One way that tithing has blessed me is it checks my heart periodically. Do you still love me more than these? I have to have that regular check in with the Lord. Yes. I still love you more than this. For me personally, I cannot go without tithing because money can for me personally get into my heart.

John Bytheway:               43:41                   Hank, Alex, when I was on my mission, I got a letter from my dad and he told me when he was investigating the church, he joined when he was 24, he had heard the promise of Malachi, which is like over the top beautiful. I will open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing, there shall not be room enough to receive it. And my dad said, I decided to pay tithing before I was baptized to see what would happen. I thought, wow dad, that’s pretty cool. So he sent me that a letter when I was on my mission and the rest is history. Prove me now herewith try it, see what happens.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                44:20                   I do remember a talk by President Hinckley. He says, what’s so remarkable about tithing is if the government did a similar program, everyone share and share alike, and if you don’t have much, you don’t have to give much. It would solve our tax laws almost immediately.

John Bytheway:               44:37                   Yeah. Instead of volumes of tax law. It’s always been interesting to me that when this widow threw her mite the widows mite into the temple treasury, Jesus didn’t say, guys, go get that and give it back to her. He let her do that. It blesses those who have so little and those who have so much. It’s a check on our heart. Like you said, Hank.

Hank Smith:                      45:04                   Yeah. In the manual there’s a link to Elder Bednar’s 2013 talk the Windows of Heaven. He makes an invitation here. It’s pretty bold. He says, the honest payment of tithing is much more than a duty. It is an important step in the process of personal sanctification. To those of you who pay tithing, I commend you. To those of you who presently are not obeying the law of tithing. I invite you to consider your ways and repent. I testify that by your obedience to this law of the Lord, the windows of heaven will be opened to you. Please do not procrastinate the day of your repentance. I testify spiritual and temporal blessings come into our lives as we live the law of tithing. It’s a wonderful talk. You should read the whole thing. He talks about being on the council of the disposition of the tithes in the talk and his experiences there. It’s really wonderful. Alex, do we wanna look at section 120?

Dr. Alex Baugh:                46:13                   Yeah. This is really in a sense a continuum of 119. In other words, okay, this is the law of the tithe that we are going to institute at this point in time. But who manages those offerings? We know the bishop receives them on behalf of the church. But what about disbursement today. And today, this is a very simplistic explanation, but section 120 has been a really good guide for the presidents and administrations of the church simply because the First Presidency will have complete oversight of the tithes of the church helped and assisted by the bishop and his council. Now again, in 1838, this would’ve been Bishop Partridge and Isaac Morley and then John Coral at one time, but Titus Billings. Then the other one mentioned, of course is, and by my high council, well you gotta remember, the Quorum of the Twelve is headed all the way to Great Britain.

                                           47:21                   They’re initially not involved in this like we would say today. Meaning the Quorum of the Twelve is part of that disposition of the council of tithes. I think this was given to say, okay, who should oversee it? The Twelve are leaving. Well, the First Presidency isn’t, the bishop’s here, and we have a high council. We have the first Presiding Bishopric of the church. That became their responsibility as well as the Quorum of the Twelve when there was no way you can have individual councils of high priests, stake high councils manage the affairs. So it only makes sense. I have to say this verse, is since quoted every single April Conference. It’s when an independent auditor indicates when the audit report is executed that it has been done under the direction of the council on the disposition of tithes. It’s usually one where I tell my kids, you can probably not watch General Conference and go get your ice cream and come back during the audit report. But it’s nonetheless to try to demonstrate to the church that your funds, your tithes are honestly kept and expended.

John Bytheway:               48:37                   Imagine the burden of that. I think I remember that President Hinckley said he had a widow’s mite on his desk to remind him of those out there paying tithing and to be careful how you use this money. And I trust him. Once it’s gone, it’s gone. I know they feel that burden.

Hank Smith:                      48:55                   John, I hope everybody heard that. Because I’d say it too. I trust the church. I trust that council, I trust them. I will continue to pay my tithing.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                49:07                   The weight of the responsibility of those precious sacrifices by, like you say, the widow in West Africa. That’s gotta bear some weight on them.

Hank Smith:                      49:19                   I’m sure the Lord takes that very seriously and I’m sure they do as well. I wanna give everybody listening an opportunity here. If you’re like me and you’re almost addicted to Alex Baugh and you want to continue this discussion, we’ll put a link in our show notes for, we actually did three parts of an episode four years ago for section 121 through 123 where Alex basically fills in the gap here between section 120 and 121. So you could say, I would love for this to continue. Well, you can get a younger version of Alex four years ago. We also have out a Voices of the Restoration episode with Dr. Dirkmaat about the period here between section 120 and 121 and even before.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                50:05                   I really hope the Adam-ondi-Ahman meeting will include mortals, resurrected beings and spirit world soon to be, I’ll look forward to being with you two wonderful people. We’ll return there.

Hank Smith:                      50:20                   Well, I’ll find you Alex. I’m sure you’ll have a front row seat. There’ll be reserved seating for you.

John Bytheway:               50:25                    VIP. They’re gonna need some help setting up the chairs. I mean, I want to come.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                50:32                   Well, I’ll probably have to take ’em down. So.

Hank Smith:                      50:34                   I’m one of those who’d be like, can I Zoom in? Is there a Zoom option? Alex, thank you for this. You’ve walked us through the history and these sections. John, I’ve had listeners tell me, I feel like I’m getting a BYU education when you sit at the feet here of Alex Baugh and he opens up these scriptures and the history and puts them together they come to life. Alex, I’m gonna ask you to do something here, and I know you didn’t prep for this. Like I said, when we started, you love these people. You’ve come to know them. When the Saints are driven out of Far West, there’s a group of people in October of 1838, many of whom are coming from Kirtland, like you said at Haun’s Mill. One of them is Amanda Barnes Smith and her husband and children. I’ve heard you talk about her and I would love for our listeners to hear you talk about her. You didn’t prep for this, so you don’t need to give us all the ins and outs and details that I’ve heard you give before. I think it’s a great example of how someone in our church who does beautiful history also comes to love these people.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                51:53                   Well, that’s really sweet. This is Amanda Barnes Smith. She had a husband named Warren. She’s part of what we call the Kirtland poor camp their family. They were one of the last groups to leave Kirtland. They were led by members of the 70. In fact, in her group was Brigham Young’s brother was leading that group. They had 16 miles to go before they arrived at Far West, and they were the last company to leave Kirtland. And they were stopped en route by a number of antagonists who ripped on ’em a little bit and tried to discourage them. It was really frightening to them. But they got to Haun’s Mill. Jacob Hawn was not a Latter-day Saint, but he had gathered a bunch of families around his compound there. A number of Latter-day Saints lived there and worked and the last stopping point before the final dozen or so miles to get to Far West.

                                           52:55                   But they had stopped there to kind of recoup and regenerate. This is when the marauders, the antagonist from Davies and Livingston counties, about 200 armed men, made an attack on the settlement community. These were innocent people. They hadn’t done anything to anyone, but nonetheless, they were in a wagon. They didn’t have much protection, but there were threats. And sure enough, the attack occurred on October 30th, 1838, the afternoon. And her husband, like many of the men, when they saw this group, they sought seclusion in the blacksmith shop hoping to protect themselves in some way. And the other women and children fled. The result being that Amanda lost her husband to a brutal attack and also a son named Sardius. Another little son named Alma was with his father and with his brother in the blacksmith shop. And a ruffian had put his gun through the cracks in the wall and shot and blew his hip off.

                                           54:07                   Basically the hip bone. His brother was shot in the head and his father was killed also. After the attack, Amanda goes in and realizes the problem and was totally overcome with grief. A lot of the men, again, there weren’t a lot of men left, and they had to bury their family members. There was no place for burial except this well that had been dug and it was dry. They didn’t strike water, but the ground was hard. It’s getting late in the season, the Fall, they decided that they had to remove the bodies and put them in this makeshift grave, and she just couldn’t stand to see this little boy Sardius be put in. And sure enough, they had him on a board or a plank of some sort, and she said it was just heart wrenching to see that body drop into the well that was covered up.

                                           55:02                   And then she had to take care of this boy with this huge injury. But she prayed for help and received inspiration to put some poultice from a slippery elm bark or something like that, and said that God could heal her son and she had the faith that he would be okay. Sure enough, the little boy recovered. About six weeks later, he was actually walking around. The power of this woman’s faith was so tremendous. But what happens is they came back later and some of these men occupied the community and she had a horse, and that ruffian was gonna take the horse. This was too much. So she went into the woods or somewhere to pray. What came to her was that if we don’t sing the seventh verse, how firm a foundation, we’ve missed that whole hymn, but the words came that soul who has leaned on me for repose, I shall not, I cannot desert to his foes. While hell shall endeavor to shake. I’ll never, no never, no never forsake.

                                           56:12                   To me, that’s a super testimony of a person who can really sacrifice anything and everything for the gospel. My family’s from Logan. My wife’s family’s from Richmond. Amanda Barnes Smith years later was visiting her daughter up in Richmond, it’s in Cache Valley. She passed away there and then since her daughter and family there, they buried her in the Richmond Cemetery. Memorial Day when we go up to Cache Valley, I always stop in and get a couple of roses and put them on her grave. I tell others that your sacrifice is meaningful to God, but some paid a supreme sacrifice, which we ought to always remember, and I do.

Hank Smith:                      56:59                   Thank you for that. I remember you telling me that story many, many years ago. John, this is at BYU. We call them disciple scholars. That’s Alex. Alex, thank you for spending your time with us today, and thank Susan for us please.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                57:16                   I will.

Hank Smith:                      57:17                   Yeah, we love being with you.

Dr. Alex Baugh:                57:18                   It’s an honor to be with you. Thank you for all you do. Bringing the gospel to more people in a very powerful way.

Hank Smith:                      57:28                   We love it here. I was looking forward to this all year, and it lived up to every expectation. So fun. So fun. With that, we’d like to thank Dr. Alex Baugh for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. Every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you join us next week. We’re in Liberty Jail on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speak Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Follow him.co. That’s followhim.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Sydney Smith and Annabelle Sorensen.