John Bytheway: 00:00:01 Join us for part two with Dr. Jared Ludlow on Galatians chapter one through six. What a challenge for Paul because this is all the Jews had ever known and the Gentiles are coming into this, and trying to put those all together because the guy out there mowing his lawn would be, by the definition we’re using, probably a Gentile and we’re learning all this stuff those guys did in the past with the law of Moses, but for Paul, when it was all happening all at once, it helps me to see what a challenge he really had in bringing Gentiles and Jews and Jewish converts to Christianity all together at the same time, with all of their past practices, putting that all together and he can’t be there. He can only write these letters. It just sounds like his challenge was really harder than I ever imagined.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:00:53 To add to that challenge is what he talks about in chapter two with a kind of confrontation with Peter.

Hank Smith: 00:01:01 Man.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:01:03 Paul goes back to an experience that he had earlier, so this is not when he’s in Galatia or with them, but he was in Antioch, which is in modern day Syria. And Antioch became an early important center of Christianity. In fact, in the Book of Acts, it mentions that that’s the first place that they are called Christians, these believers in the Messiah. He’s up there in Antioch, so chapter two verse 11, and Peter came up and kind of an introduction, Paul says, “I withstood him to the face because he was to be blamed.” So, in other words, I called him out and then he gives the background. Why did he call him out? Well, before that, certain people came from James and by James here, it’s talking about Jesus’s brother, the leader of the church in Jerusalem, and they seem to represent Jerusalem kind of represented the core of this Jewish practice continuation.

  00:02:07 That’s how they were raised and they come from this party of James or whatever and before they came, Peter was eating with the Gentiles. And as you know, there’s some challenges when you mix Jews and Gentiles together eating because Gentiles do not follow the same kosher diet. It’s not so much that they absolutely can’t be eating together, but you won’t be eating the same foods. I participated in a lot of interfaith work with Jews in graduate school, I had a lot of Jewish professors and fellow students, and whenever we have eating opportunities together, it’s a bit of a challenge. The easiest route is just usually just go vegetarian and it cuts out a lot of the questions and so forth.

  00:02:58 Peter didn’t seem to have a problem meeting with the Gentiles there in Antioch until this group comes up from Jerusalem and then when they would come, he withdrew and separated himself. And this is Paul’s perspective. We need to keep that in mind. We don’t know what Peter … what’s going on in his mind. I don’t know if he’s thinking, “Oh, well we just have these guests that just arrived from Jerusalem. Let me make sure they feel comfortable.” He separated himself, fearing them, Paul says, which were of the circumcision. In other words, they were of this idea that we keep doing these actions.

John Bytheway: 00:03:38 Keep living the law of Moses.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:03:39 And the other Jews disassembled, likewise or acted likewise with him in so much that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation or hypocrisy is what the Greek really gets at there, but when I … Paul says, “When I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter, before them all, if thou being a Jew livest after the manner of the Gentiles.” In other words, you were just eating with the Gentiles, “And not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”

  00:04:19 So this is kind of a case study of this whole issue that I’m sure you’ve dealt with before in Acts chapter 15 with the Jerusalem council, of trying to decide what do we require the Gentiles to do when they come into the church and so forth. In the July Liahona issue, I was asked to write about that Jerusalem council in Acts chapter 15, and that’s the whole issue, is trying to figure out what do we do with gentiles coming into the church? How do we mix together? Because food is an important part of fellowship. I mean, think of … even in our own wards and stakes and all, we have these events where we eat together. Well, why? Because we want to, fellowship one with another, get to know each other better.

  00:05:09 Well, what happens when you come from different eating backgrounds and requirements? Now we have gluten-free or other things that can create some issues, but usually, can find some way of accommodating that. What if you have two major blocks of people that are different? I kind of liken it to, if suddenly in the church we, at the next general conference, heard that any incoming member of the church no longer has to observe the word of wisdom, A, our baptism numbers might go way up, but B, imagine then what happens at the next ward party with all these new converts? Do you have different punch bowls for different types of beverages that each are drinking?

  00:06:00 Do you have a smoking area in the chapel? It would totally turn things upside down, and in some ways that’s how these Jewish believers in Jesus were feeling about all these gentiles coming in is how do we mix with them? What do we do about them when they aren’t doing the things that we have been accustomed to doing all of our lives, and which Jesus seemed to have done during his life? It’s a tough thing that they’re trying to navigate.

Hank Smith: 00:06:31 That was an excellent example. That really helped me understand.

John Bytheway: 00:06:35 I like that what you said though we don’t have a chance to hear from Peter about, well, this is why I went to the other table or why I left.

Hank Smith: 00:06:45 Yeah, I wanted to read out of the contemporary English version, just so everybody caught that story between Paul and Peter. It says, “When Peter came to Antioch, I told him face-to-face that he was wrong. He used to eat with gentile followers of the Lord until James sent some Jewish followers, Peter was afraid of the Jews and soon stopped eating with the Gentiles. He and the others hid their true feelings so well that even Barnabas was fooled, but when I saw that they were not really obeying the truth, that isn’t a good news. I corrected Peter in front of everyone and said, Peter, you are a Jew, but you live like a Gentile, so how can you force Gentiles to live like the Jews?” That would’ve been an interesting moment to witness.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:07:24 I mean, I don’t know, but I hear sometimes our modern day apostles have spirited discussions about certain things until they can come to a unified unanimous decision, usually with the help of the Spirit, bringing them together, but they each have their opinions and their personalities and things, and here we get a flavor of Paul’s personality that he’s not afraid to go after the chief apostle and say, you’re acting like a hypocrite. Again, we don’t know what Peter was thinking on the other side.

Hank Smith: 00:07:58 John, Jared, one of the websites I like to use sometimes in my Bible study is the Bible Project. They have a summary of the book of Galatians and I want to see what both of you thought about it. They write this, “Paul’s letter confronts the Galatians for relying on the laws of Torah, law of Moses, especially circumcision, to ensure they belonged as members of God’s family. He calls this a different gospel because since the beginning, the real good news has never been about earning an entrance into God’s family. To prove this, Paul points back to Abraham as a prime example, reminding readers that Abraham never earned his right relationship with God. Instead, he believed and trusted God’s promise that one day all nations would find God’s blessings through him and his descendants.”

  00:08:43 “God’s plan has always been to have a family of people who relate to him on the basis of trust, not the law. The law, as good as it is, does not provide the power to change what the law cannot do. Jesus fully accomplishes. Paul says that what really matters is God’s new creation, the family of people who trust in Jesus and learn to love God and others through the power of the spirit.” What do you guys think?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:09:15 I think that is one of the purposes of Galatians is to bring this multi-ethnic, I guess you could say, family together. I think it used the word trust in there throughout … In the King James version, it uses faith, but I think some like to use the concept of trust or confidence in Christ or in God as kind of capturing more of the sense that it will impel us to action because we trust or have confidence that it will really work, that if I come unto Christ, he really can save me. Where sometimes when we think of the word faith, we can just use it in more of an abstract, “I have faith in something out there,” but if we have real trust in confidence in Christ, then yeah, he can do what he claimed that he could do and that he did.

Hank Smith: 00:10:14 So I can, if I’m not careful, trust the commandments more than I trust Jesus.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:10:20 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:10:21 Or even myself, my own works.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:10:24 And we’re never justified by the works of the law, but by that confidence or trust in Jesus Christ, that’s how we become right.

John Bytheway: 00:10:35 I was just thinking a question that some might have. Okay, then how was Abraham saved? And I think the answer we would say is the same way all of us are by the gospel of Jesus Christ, by the good news. That’s how we would answer that, right? Even though Christ hadn’t come at the time, but Abraham knew the gospel. He applied the same first principles that we have to, is that a fair statement?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:11:02 Yes, he had that faith or that trust and confidence in God and in the promise of the future seed that would come through his line. Usually when we see seed of Abraham, we think of a corporate sense of a group, but sometimes in the scriptures it’s talking about capital S, Seed, if you will. One person, Jesus Christ, who comes from that line of Abraham and he trusted and had faith, that that seed would come to bring the redemption that is needed. Paul also in Galatians goes back to Abraham with an allegory. In chapter four, he talks about this kind of concept of Abraham and the promise. He sets two things on two sides.

  00:11:52 We could maybe talk a little bit about this allegory in chapter four, starting in verse 22, and he’s responding to those who want to be under the law and he’s trying to explain why you don’t want to be under the law. So, verse 22, it is written that Abraham had two sons and we know he had Ishmael and he had Isaac. The one by a bondmaid, Hagar the other by a free woman, Sarah. So he’s contrasting these two. It’s kind of an interesting interpretation of scripture here. Again, it’s an allegory. So he’s seeing these as symbolic of other things, which things are an allegory, for these are two covenants. The one from Mount Sinai that’s Hagar or Ishmael, which gendereth to Bondage. There’s that concept that the law will bring bondage.

  00:12:44 Then he, pointblank says, which is Agar or Hagar and more of the Greek form there. For this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and answereth to Jerusalem. And here he is talking about the city of Jerusalem itself, which now is and is in bondage with her children. So again, they’re still under the law. They’re still in bondage to the law, which is kind of ironic because the covenant line actually goes through Isaac, but he’s tracing it through Hagar here. I’m not saying he’s tracing the covenant line, but the allegory is that that’s the bondmaid so that’s the bondage and Jerusalem represents that bondage. Now, he talks to the other side, Jerusalem, which is above is free. So he’s talking about a heavenly Jerusalem, which is the mother of us all.

  00:13:35 And then he quotes from Isaiah, “For it is written, rejoice thou barren, that bearest not, break forth and cry, thou that travailest not. For the desolate hath many more children than she, which hath an husband.” So, Isaiah 54:1 is kind of a blessing of those who may be barren at the time, but they will have children many more than those which have an husband. And then verse 28 says, “Now we brethren as Isaac was, are the children of promise.” If you remember, Isaac comes because of a promise by these visitors who say you’re going to have a child. And at first, they’re like, we’re kind of old for this, how can we have a child, kind of laugh?

  00:14:18 And that’s kind of the root of Isaac, the name itself. But, as then he that was born after the flesh, Ishmael persecuted him that was born after the spirit even so it is now. So, it goes back to Genesis again. You remember that at one point Ishmael is mocking or some see it in Hebrew as literally Isaac-ing because again, the root has this laughing or mocking to it. Somehow Ishmael is mocking or persecuting or Isaac-ing Isaac. Sarah sees and tells Abraham to cast out the bond woman and her son, for the son of the bond woman shall not be heir with the son of the free woman. So, then brethren, we are not children of the bond woman but of the free. Now, it’s kind of a complicated allegory here, but basically again, it’s just two sides and what Abraham is trying to point out or I mean what Paul is trying to point out with Abraham here is that he was given this promise.

  00:15:19 He had to have faith that they could still have children at this old age. Ishmael came through normal physical means. He was given this woman, had relations with her, Ishmael was born. There’s nothing necessarily miraculous about that. Whereas with Isaac, it took this miracle to bring this child and that’s the heavenly Jerusalem. That’s the freedom from bondage. That’s everything that represents the liberty without the law. So, while the symbols might be kind of different than what we normally think of, that’s what he uses to … as another example of, do you really want to be under the law? Do you really want to be in this kind of bondage or would you like to be free? Would you like to be children of the promise?

  00:16:15 Would you like to demonstrate that confidence and trust in God and receive all these blessings as happened with Abraham and Isaac and presumably Jacob and on down the line?

Hank Smith: 00:16:29 What a fascinating way to use that story.

John Bytheway: 00:16:33 Yeah. It uses real people and a real story and compares people to the law of Moses or the law of the Gospel.

Hank Smith: 00:16:41 Is he saying that Ishmael represents the law of Moses? Isaac represents the law of Christ just like Sarah cast Ishmael away the law of Christ has cast the law of Moses away.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:16:56 Yeah, I mean we would probably say fulfilled or-

Hank Smith: 00:16:59 Okay.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:17:00 I don’t know if superseded, that might be a strong term, but definitely that it’s fulfilled the law of Moses, now it’s the law of Christ. What Christ has asked us to do is what we need to focus on and follow.

Hank Smith: 00:17:14 I would like to study the scriptures with Paul because-

John Bytheway: 00:17:18 He saw that in there, yeah, like in verse 24, which things are an allegory, four, these are the two covenants.

Hank Smith: 00:17:27 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:17:28 That’s interesting.

Hank Smith: 00:17:29 John, Jared, let me offer maybe what I see as a practical application of what we’ve been talking about and get you both to comment on it. In second Nephi four, Nephi talks about himself in relationship to the commandments, the laws. He says, and you’ll both recognize this, “O wretched man that I am, my heart sorroweth because of my flesh. My soul grieves because of my iniquities. I am encompassed about because of temptation and sin, which easily beset me. When I desire to rejoice, my heart groans because of my sins.” So, there’s Nephi’s relationship with the law. As much as he loves the law, he can’t do it all. Then, he turns and he points to Christ.

  00:18:13 He said, “Nevertheless, I know in whom I have trusted. My God has been my support. He hath led me through my afflictions. He has filled me with his love. He has heard my cries.” And then he says, “If he has done this much for me, if he has visited me in so much mercy, why should my heart weep and my soul linger in the valley of sorrow?” And he says, “I don’t want to yield to sin anymore.” Would you both say that that’s Nephi’s way of experiencing what Paul is talking about?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:18:45 I think it’s a similar analogy to it, yeah, that he realizes that there is a way out of that feeling of entrapment or wretchedness or whatever of always falling short. I think all of us feel that at times in our lives, that we’re constantly falling short, that we aren’t as good as we want to be, as good as what we think God wants us to be, and yet Christ is always there to lift us and to support us and strengthen us out of that, as long as we keep trying to turn to him and lift ourselves, and I think that’s what Nephi is sensing there, and I think you used the word trust, “I know in whom I can trust.”

Hank Smith: 00:19:30 And it’s not the commandments. Yeah. John, what do you think about that?

John Bytheway: 00:19:35 Yeah, I think the law forces us to confront our own sinfulness, that we can’t keep it, and I would love to be as wretched as Nephi, if that’s the definition of wretchedness, that he gets to that point where he realizes that, and I think it was one of Nephi’s best days. I think if we always feel good about ourselves, that’s a problem. So, it was one of Nephi’s best moments and notice what he did, and we’ve been talking about faith in Christ, but I know in whom I have trusted and he doesn’t go on about, “I’m great, I’m special, I’m awesome.” He goes, “He has done this for me. He has done this for me. He’s protected me on the sea and protected me in all this,” and it’s such a great … I can’t wait for Book Mormon to talk about that more.

Hank Smith: 00:20:23 I want to read an analogy made by Steven Robinson. John, this is a talk that we’ve quoted from before, Believing Christ. He wrote a book with the same name. “When our twin daughters were small, we decided to take them to the public pool and teach them how to swim. I remember starting with Rebecca. As I went down into the water with Rebecca, I thought, I’m going to teach her how to swim, but as we went down into the water, in her mind was the thought, my dad is going to drown me. I’m going to die. The water was only three and a half feet deep, but Becky was only three feet deep. She was so petrified that she began to scream and cry and kick and scratch and was unteachable. Finally, I just had to grab her. I threw my arms around her and I just held her and I said, Becky, I’ve got you. I’m your dad. I love you.”

  00:21:09 “I’m not going to let anything bad happen to you. Now relax. Bless her heart, she trusted me. She relaxed and I put my arms under her and said, okay, now kick with your legs. And we began to learn how to swim. Spiritually, there are some of us who are similarly petrified by the questions, am I celestial? Am I going to make it? Was I good enough today? We’re so terrified of whether we’re going to live or die or whether we’ve made it into the kingdom or not, that we cannot make any progress. It’s at those times when the Savior grabs us, throws his arms around us and says, I’ve got you. I love you. I’m not going to let you die. Now relax and trust me.”

  00:21:45 “If we can relax and trust him and believe him as well as believe in him, then together we can begin to learn to live the gospel. Then he puts his arms under us and says, okay, now pay tithing. Very good. Now pay a full tithing. And so we begin to make progress. Brothers and sisters, do we believe in being saved? If I ask my classes that question with just the right twang in my voice, do we believe in being saved? I generally get about a third of my students to shake their heads and say, no, no. Those other guys believe in that. What a tragedy. Brothers and sisters, we believe in being saved. That’s why Jesus is called the Savior.”

  00:22:21 “What good is it to have a savior if no one is saved? It’s like having a lifeguard that won’t get out of the chair. There goes another one. Try the backstroke. Too bad, he didn’t make it. We have a savior who can save us from ourselves, from what we lack, from our imperfections, from the carnal individuals within us.” I like that analogy.

John Bytheway: 00:22:44 Yeah, I think we’re going back to, this isn’t another gospel. This is the gospel of Jesus Christ is the Savior. Trust him, have faith in him. Repent and he’s good at what he does.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:22:58 There’s definitely the power that comes through Christ that Paul … again, there’s no flinching in his testimony of the power of the risen Lord, and he just is so passionate about wanting others to understand this. He won’t let people from Jerusalem stand in his way. He won’t let Peter stand in his way if he feels like Peter is off base a little bit because he just wants them to know the source of salvation and power that can come to them.

Hank Smith: 00:23:36 It seems that he’s constantly facing this battle of people pulling back to the law of Moses. It’s almost like they want to Jared, why do they want to go back to the law of Moses so badly?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:23:47 I think a lot of it is just the tradition of it, how they were raised. Again, getting back to maybe what did Jesus do? Well, he did some of these things and so not fully understanding the purpose for these things that were to point towards Christ rather than the things themselves. I think in our church when we’ve had some changes, some members of the church struggle with it. Well, I don’t know how many struggled with going to two hour church. Maybe that was more universally accepted.

Hank Smith: 00:24:24 I do know of some who said I really liked three hours of church.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:24:28 Yeah, but maybe related to that missing, that we don’t have Sunday school every week or these kinds of things. Sometimes the changes are hard with what we’ve been raised with and what we’ve felt like has brought us a lot of satisfaction and joy and suddenly, we’re struggling in this new situation. It’s out of our comfort zone. We’re bringing in a lot of people that don’t have the same background as we do. And again, that takes some adjustment and sometimes we don’t want to adjust. We want to just keep things as they are.

John Bytheway: 00:25:07 I think maybe a good example might be home teaching and ministering. With home teaching, I had a box I could check. I visited my family and I read that article in the Ensign for home teachers, which they had already read and talked to someone else, but it had a checklist feel to it. And I don’t want to sound like I’m disparaging that. I had great people who visited us in my childhood and everything that came and they were faithful to that. Ministering leaves us a little bit like, “Whoa, what do I do?” And maybe I think it kind of requires more work on our part. What do I need to do? What should I do? Are my families … do I know them? Are they doing okay? I think it requires more of us, but it has less of a checklist feel to it. Do you think?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:26:01 Definitely.

Hank Smith: 00:26:03 Yeah, John, I think that’s a fantastic example because doesn’t Paul say Jared, that just because many things of the law of Moses are no longer practiced, doesn’t mean to do nothing, and that maybe was the feel of some people, I might be condemning myself here, that because we’re no longer home teaching, you can do nothing. And Paul is saying, no, no, no, that’s not what this is. This is a call for you to step up even higher. John, I think you hit a great analogy there. Jared, what do you think?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:26:35 Yeah. No, I agree that there’s less prescription of what exactly you need to do, which we can find comfort in because then we know, like John mentioned, that we’re checking the boxes. Now, we have to figure out through the spirit, how do I minister? What are the needs? What constitutes good ministering, these kinds of things. It’s not, “Well, I did it every month this year, so I can check those boxes.” Now it’s figuring it out.

John Bytheway: 00:27:08 Yeah, some were more comfortable with merit badges and rank advancements. And what we’ve been asked to do now with children and youth is, rather than going to what this booklet says I should be working on that was written by someone else, is to get on our knees and ask God and our patriarchal blessing what we should be working on. Scouts was wonderful and it had its place, and it blessed a lot of people. And I love the principle of “Be Prepared,” always will, but we’re being asked to do something, we might even say it’s harder. It’s more “Hear Him and then let God prevail” type based with the new program that we have now, maybe that one works.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:27:50 It kind of goes back to what we were talking about, where we’re given these principles and then we have to figure out how to implement them rather than given all the performances and ordinances and try to learn some principles from them.

John Bytheway: 00:28:04 Yeah, I think it makes us feel more accountable, not less. Isn’t that true, Hank? Don’t you feel like I got to do better? I got to figure out exactly how I can be a good ministering brother to these families in the best way for them, not just in a way that is general for everybody by checking a box.

Hank Smith: 00:28:23 John, don’t you think something similar happened with the new Strength of Youth pamphlet, that the old pamphlet served as well? There was a lot of do’s and don’ts, checklists. Someone might see the new Strength of Youth pamphlet as a, “Oh, look what I can do now” versus step up to “I need to figure out my commitment to the Lord.”

John Bytheway: 00:28:46 Yeah, just what President Nelson has said, “Learn to hear him and then let God prevail.” So, if some are reading it but not actually getting on their knees and trying to get inspiration, they may say, it doesn’t say I can’t do this. Well, the FSY guide is not minimums of behavior, it’s doctrines of discipleship, I’ve heard someone say, and that’s a step-up. The whole thing is next level. In other words, look up. Don’t look to a book, what can I do? What I can’t do? Look up and ask God, am I dressing in a way that honors my body, that God has given me? Am I acting in a way that honors what God has given me, and don’t miss that step? Well, it doesn’t say I can’t do this.

  00:29:30 Okay, then get on your knees and figure out with your patriarchal blessing, with the scriptures, with learning to hear him, what kind of person should I be? How should I behave? And that’s also next level.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:29:42 Yeah, and I think Paul would say, “But you’re not doing this alone, particularly you have the Holy Spirit to help guide and to lead you along the way.” And I think if there’s one section that most members of the church are familiar with in Galatians, it’s those fruits of the spirit.

John Bytheway: 00:29:59 Perfect place to go right now.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:30:02 Yeah, we sometimes look at these fruits as the outgrowth of having the spirit, and that’s certainly true, but also think of them as helps along the way when we have to make these decisions and decide practices and things that we should be doing and whether we should be doing this or not, it’s great to have that peace and that faith from the spirit that can help strengthen us. So I love his discussion of these fruits of the spirit, and I don’t know if there’s a particular fruit of the spirit that stands out to you more than any others. And maybe there’s certain times when some are really more needed, but to me, I think peace is always a great blessing.

  00:30:53 And it’s not anything necessarily dramatic, but just a nice feeling and just a confidence that I’m on the right path, that I’m doing okay. I’m not perfect, but I’m striving and the trajectory is in the right direction, that peace can really help. On the flip side, I tend to notice when I’m impatient, often it’s missing the spirit. And so that long-suffering is gone maybe a little bit more short with people. And unfortunately, particularly with my wife, I’m with her more than probably anybody else in my life. These fruits of the spirits can be great strengths to us along the way as well as indications as Paul is pointing out here, that Christ’s way is the right way and it can help us walk in the spirit.

John Bytheway: 00:31:44 I love that that’s so positive, to go from everything we’ve been talking about to talk about, here’s the fruits, here’s the results, here’s the outcomes of what we’ve been talking about. Love and joy and peace. See, I emphasize peace when I marked it too, because I think when I was younger it was all about fun and happiness, maybe, however you define those. As you get older, if you’re like me, it’s more … what you’ve longed for is just peace of mind. Am I okay? Are my children going to be okay? Are my loved ones going to be okay? And not so much just having fun all the time, but are we going to be okay? Is that more, the way I would describe peace and their fruits, their results of trusting in Christ, am I getting that right?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:32:32 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:32:33 I’m just reminded of section 19. It expands the meaning of it so much to know it was given to Martin Harris that I kind of relate to more than some others, but to learn of me, listen to my words, walk in the meekness of my spirit. I mean, think of all the people in Martin Harris’ ears and what’s Jesus saying? And think of the worries. Do I mortgage my farm? Can I show the 116 pages or can I take the characters to Charles Anthon, whatever. And what the Lord is saying, “Martin, learn of me and listen to my words and walk in the meekness of my spirit and you’ll have peace in popular opinion, no. Power, no. Wealth, no. You’ll have peace in me. That’s the fruit of the spirit, Martin, that you want.”

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:33:16 So John, you just mentioned meekness as part of all of that, and I think Paul, that’s one of the things he’s trying to emphasize in this epistle, right after listing all of those things in verse 26, he says, “Let us not be desirous of vain glory provoking one another, envying one another.” And I think the first verse of the next one is … of chapter six is again that we might lift ourselves above another. And again, think of Paul’s situation here where he is trying to merge these different peoples together from different backgrounds and it’s very easy for us to feel like we are better than the other. Whoever the other is, we’re better, but the fruits of the spirit help us to reach that meekness.

  00:34:05 To realize they’re just as much loved by heavenly Father. They’re children of God and seed of Abraham just as much as I am, and therefore I need to not provoke them and not lift myself up and not to envy them either. The pride that President Benson talked about from below to those above can be just as real as thinking we’re better than others, looking down on them.

John Bytheway: 00:34:33 Boy, and the idea of others just would be so tough when you’ve got converts who came from Judaism and converts who were Gentiles and how different their backgrounds would be, and we’re trying to be unified in the same branch of the church in this time, feel that challenge.

Hank Smith: 00:34:52 What Paul is saying here about the fruits of the spirit and how they’re affected by how you interact with others, reminds me of a statement made from Elder Renlund. I bet both of you remember this. He says, “The influence of the Holy Ghost can be obscured by strong emotions such as anger, hate or fear. That’s like trying to savor the delicate flavor of a grape while eating a jalapeno pepper. One completely overpowers the other.” So is that what Paul’s after here, Jared, is you can have all of these wonderful outcomes in your life, love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control. You can have all of these things and don’t ruin them or lose them in your fault-finding or hatred of each other.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:35:40 Yeah, exactly. I mean, again, if you’re trying to build a community, there needs to be that mutual respect and love. And it goes back to again, he says that loving your neighbor as yourself is where the law is fulfilled and how we can continue that law today. And I certainly see throughout recent general conference addresses that emphasis on the two great commandments, loving God and loving others repeatedly because that’s really what it comes down to, to help them as we also are trying to progress rather than holding them back because we are thinking we’re better and we don’t need them and those kinds of things.

Hank Smith: 00:36:28 There’s some great questions in the “Come, Follow Me” manual about this section, the end of chapter five and the beginning of chapter six. It says, “Studying these verses can help you evaluate how fully you are walking in the spirit.” That right there is quite a task, evaluating how fully you are walking in the spirit. Are you experiencing the fruit of the Spirit, mentioned in verses 22 and 23? What other fruit or results of spiritual living have you noticed? Galatians 2:20, Paul is talking about the law and Christ as we’ve been talking about, and he says this, “I am crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live yet not I, but Christ liveth in me and the life which I now live in the flesh, I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.”

  00:37:23 It’s a beautiful verse, but I want to make sure I understand it. So, Jared, John, help me understand what he means by I am crucified with Christ.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:37:32 Here we see kind of the intimate relationship that Paul feels with Christ. I mean, it doesn’t get much more than that, but I think part of it is when he says I’m crucified with Christ, maybe two senses. One, I’m getting rid of those flesh things and maybe the reliance on the law so much, but also, you can imagine Paul’s situation where he initially starts off as a persecutor of those who believed in Jesus and then, suddenly he’s 180 degrees different proclaiming that Jesus is actually the Messiah and how much persecution would be heaped upon him from those who used to be his colleagues and things. So, in some senses, his previous life is crucified with Christ.

  00:38:27 I am now as persecuted and unwanted as Christ was by my fellow colleagues, but nevertheless, I live, but now, it’s Christ liveth in me and it gets back to that trust and confidence in the Son of God, that faith. In Romans, he talks about it with baptism, that you die and you become … raised again, a new life. And I think he’s kind of giving that same concept here, that now I’m living in Christ or more probably Christ that lives in me. He’s just a messenger of Christ. He’s just the refraction of light to share the light of the world with others.

Hank Smith: 00:39:15 Thank you, Jared.

John Bytheway: 00:39:16 I’m glad you brought up Romans because we talk all the time about being born again, but to be born again kind of implies you’re going to die and then be born again. Paul does say that, and like you said in Romans 6:4, we’re buried with him by baptism unto death that we think of baptism as being born again, but the first part going down under the water is like dying. Then, we walk in newness of life, and that’s why when I saw “Crucified with Christ,” I said, “Oh yeah, we’re buried when we’re, baptism, the old man of sin is left behind, I think is the phrase,” and then we’re born again. So that’s what I connected that to. I’m glad you brought that up about how we’re crucified with him. Well, we die and are born again because of him.

Hank Smith: 00:40:00 Daniel Judd, former dean of the religion department of BYU, gave a talk at an Easter conference called New Creatures in Christ. He talks about Paul and he shares an interesting story that I want both of you to hear. This is Dr. Judd. “Paul is using the literal death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as symbolic representations to invite the reader to put to death the natural man, within each of us, through faith in Christ, repentance and baptism, that we may come forth as new creatures in Christ to sin no more. British pastor and theologian, Charles Spurgeon gave the following illustration of what it means to repent and be baptized unto Christ’s death and become a new creature in Christ.

  00:40:44 While the original source for this story cannot be identified, Spurgeon believed the story is from the life of St. Augustine, the fourth century bishop in North Africa. Augustine had indulged in great sins in his younger days. After his conversion, he met with a woman who had been the sharer of his wicked follies. She approached him wittingly and said to him, “Augustine, it is I,” mentioning her by name, but Augustine then turned around and said, “But it is not I. The old Augustine is dead and I am a new creature in Christ Jesus.” Isn’t that a great story?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:41:24 Yeah, and that gets to again a verse. I mean Paul uses that new creature phrase also, and again, chapter six verse 15, and Christ Jesus, neither circumcision availeth any thing nor uncircumcision but a new creature. And that’s what Paul is trying to help anyone to accomplish, to change and to become that new creature, whether they were Jewish background, gentile background, it didn’t seem to matter to him. He just wanted them to change.

John Bytheway: 00:41:58 Sometimes we say the gospel makes, or has the potential to make bad men good and good men better, but I think it’s so much more than that, that I like this phrase, a new creature or in other words, a new creation. I won’t even resemble, or like Augustine was saying, it’s me, but it’s not me. In the Come, Follow Me manual for individuals and families, there’s a beautiful illustration of a caterpillar and a butterfly. I mean no resemblance, that he can make us a completely new creation. So, I like that he didn’t just say, it’ll make me better, but no, it’ll be a completely new creature.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:42:41 It’s interesting that Paul also mentions that imagery of being crucified in chapter six, verse 14. Here he’s again responding to those who want to have his gentile converts be circumcised, but he says, “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,” and then notice this phrase, “By whom the world is crucified unto me and I unto the world,” so that trying to change and rise above the Babylon or the natural world around us, it’s through Christ that we can accomplish that. It’s through Christ that the world changes, I think of some of the Book of Mormon stories where they had no more desire to do sin. And sometimes I wonder why don’t I get that blessing more often? It’s truly through Christ that that world is crucified and that I also am crucified to the world.

  00:43:45 I don’t want to participate in those things and be a part of that when I am truly a changed person.

Hank Smith: 00:43:53 Yeah, the great and spacious building loses its appeal. This might be a good place to insert a quote that I’m sure both of you know from C.S. Lewis. He says, “Imagine yourself as a living house. God comes in to rebuild that house. At first, perhaps you can understand what he is doing. He is getting the drains right and stopping the leaks in the roof and so on. You knew that those jobs needed doing and so you’re not surprised, but presently, he starts knocking the house about in a way that hurts abominably and does not seem to make sense. What on earth is he up to? The explanation is that he is building quite a different house from the one you thought of. Throwing out a new wing here, putting on an extra floor there. Running up towers, making courtyards. You thought you were going to be made into a decent little cottage, but he is building a palace. He intends to come and live in it, himself.” Paul said, “I’m crucified with Christ. Nevertheless, I live. Yet, not I, but Christ liveth in me.”

John Bytheway: 00:44:53 A new creation, a totally new creation. Don’t beat yourself up if you’re not there, like remodeling a house. It could take a while.

Hank Smith: 00:45:04 Yeah, and it can be very discouraging and encouraging at times.

John Bytheway: 00:45:09 One of the bedrock stones of my personal testimony is watching the fruits of the gospel, because I had a live-in example in my house. My dad came out of the Navy in World War II, joined the church at age 24 because of my mom and strived his whole life to do better and to be better, and we would find notes he left to himself about trying to do better and to be better. And the dad I had at eight years old was not the one I had at 18 or 28. And eventually, he was in a Bishopric and on a high council. And we just watched the gospel change him and mellow him. And to me, you can’t take that from me. I saw the gospel make him a new creature. And sadly, I think he never felt like he was making enough progress, but we all saw it.

  00:46:04 And I honor my father and the Savior for what I watched the gospel do for him because I experienced it and my siblings would say the same thing.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:46:16 I have a story maybe that is in process, I guess you could say. I’m currently the publications director at the BYU Religious Study Center, and shortly after taking that position, I got a letter just sent to the religious study center from an inmate in prison. And he had started watching BYUTV in prison and particularly started watching the scripture round table discussions from religion faculty that were broadcast on the TV. And the only address that came up or contact information was the Religious Study Center. So, he reached out and it’s begun this correspondence back and forth now for almost two years. And even phone calls, he’ll call me at least once or twice a week.

  00:47:16 And one of the things that he’s noted was how these people, as they talked about the scriptures, just they seem different and he felt different when he would watch them and listen to them. And he wasn’t a very learned person as far as a lot of education. He, I think, got involved in drugs early on and that just led his life in a different direction. Yet, he started to realize I deserve to be where I am. I’ve done some things that justice demands this of me, but he also is reaching out for, “I want to change. I want to be a different person and I need Christ.” So, I was very pleased, and I think this was not just a coincidence when one day, he …

  00:48:10 This was a few months ago, he said he saw a couple of people come into the prison and he didn’t know who they were. He wasn’t sure if they were prison officials or something, but they dressed obviously not as inmates, but he just felt this prompting to go ask who they were. And he’s like, I don’t know why I did that, but I know why he did that. Anyway, he goes and asks them, and they were members of the church and they were there looking for any members of the church. Things during COVID, really shut down any services and these kinds of things. So, they were trying to start things back up and he explained, “Well, I’m not a member of the church, but I love studying it, and I’ve started reading all these things” and he has a Book of Mormon and other things.

  00:48:57 And so now he participates in weekly meetings with members of the church from the local area that come in and as well as a few other inmates. And he says, sometimes we get up to nine or 10 people that are coming. So, you see that strong desire to change, to be in a position where … I just give this sense that he knows he can’t do it alone and he’s all alone. So, he reaches out to Jesus to just try to find something that can help him to be better and to try to improve on what a life he feels he kind of wasted. To me, that’s the good news. That’s what the gospel is all about. Becoming a new creature, and it’s through the spirit.

  00:50:03 It’s through that trust in Jesus, and I don’t know what’s going to be the end result, but I do know he’s on a much, much better trajectory than he was before. And that’s the blessings of the spirit and the blessings of the gospel.

Hank Smith: 00:50:26 What a story, John, Jared, I think those are perfect examples of what we’re talking about today, about Christ’s ability to truly change people, not just so they act different, but they truly are different. I’m sure many of our listeners will remember the story. C.S. Lewis, who we mentioned earlier, wrote the story of a little boy named Eustace who was in a land called Narnia, and he was a greedy, selfish boy in Narnia. His greedy selfishness turns him into a dragon and he does not want to be this dragon and his friends are scared of him. He can’t be with them. Lewis writes, “An appalling loneliness came over him. He was very dreary being a dragon. He shuddered whenever he caught sight of his own reflection and he was ashamed to be seen by others.”

  00:51:18 If you’ve seen the movie, there’s a moment where Aslan, the lion comes representing Christ to change Eustace, but the book has quite a bit more detail. Eustace says in the book, “I was lying awake and wondering what on earth would become of me. I looked up and I saw a huge lion coming slowly towards me. It told me to follow it. It led me a long way into the mountains. There was always a light around the lion wherever he went. At last, we came to the top of a mountain and there was a garden, trees and fruit and everything. In the middle of it, there was a very big round bath with marble steps going down into it. I thought if I could get in there and bathe, it would ease the pain, but the lion told me I must undress first. Suddenly I thought that dragons are snakey sort of things and snake can cast their skin. So, I started scratching myself and my scales began coming off.”

  00:52:13 “I scratched a little deeper and my whole skin started peeling off beautifully. I could see it there beside me looking rather nasty. It was the most lovely feeling. I scratched and tore again and another skin peeled off beautifully. I thought to myself, how many skins have I got to take off? I was longing to bathe. And then this moment, then the lion said, you’ll have to let me. The very first tear he made was so deep, I thought it had gone right into my heart. It hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt. The only thing that made me able to bear it was just the pleasure of feeling that stuff peel off. He caught hold of me and threw me into the water. It hurt, but only for a moment. After that, I found that all the pain had gone.”

  00:53:00 “And then, he returns back to his friends and I like what Lewis says after this. It says, great was the rejoicing when the restored Eustace walked into the circle around the campfire. No one, at least of all Eustace himself, felt any desire to go back to the dragon’s cave, where he got … was changed.” And then Lewis says this, and I like what you said Jared about, I don’t know how that man’s story is going to work out. Lewis writes this, “It would be nice and fairly true to say that from that time forth, Eustace was a different boy. To be strictly accurate, he began to be a different boy. The cure had begun.” I think that’s what we’ve been talking about today. Paul is offering people the cure to a painful, sinful life, that the cure is Christ himself.

John Bytheway: 00:53:52 I just love that sometimes I don’t see the word creator in creature, but it’s in there. So, the creator can make a new creation, can make a new creature. I love to see it in there because I believe that’s what he can do.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:54:07 I love how Paul … he loves these people. He wants to help them, and he’s willing to bear whatever price it is on his body. I mean, he says he bears the marks of the Lord Jesus, from whippings, from stonings, from everything, but that’s not going to deter him from trying to help others come unto Christ. And I mean, it’s just an incredible example of someone who wants to help others and bring to them the peace and love that can be a part of their life. If it means, again, standing up against those who he feels are leading them astray, then he will do so. Ultimately, he just is trying to point them to Christ and the peace that can come through him.

Hank Smith: 00:55:02 Jared, you just quoted from chapter six, verse 17, “From henceforth, let no man trouble me for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.” That’s how Paul finishes this letter. Is there anything else we need to see in his conclusion?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:55:15 I mean, this is more of an interesting fact about it, besides some of the doctrine he gives in this chapter. And that is in verse 11, he says, “You see how large a letter I have written unto you with my own hand?” Now large a letter here, I don’t think it’s so much the length because as you know, that epistles of Paul are organized by length in our canon.

John Bytheway: 00:55:37 It’s the font he used.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:55:38 Yeah, it’s the font, and in other words, probably a lot of this was dictated, but now he’s writing himself and he’s kind of proud of that. I’m writing this, but it points to what some scholars think is that Paul may have had problems with his eyes, and so he’s writing in a larger font, if you will, larger letters, but he wanted to do it with his own hand. He alludes to this earlier in the epistle when he talks about … this is in chapter four, starting in verse 13, “You know how through infirmity of the flesh, I preached the gospel unto you at the first and my temptation or my test, which was in my flesh, you despise not nor rejected, but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.”

  00:56:31 So whatever physical ailment or something he seems to have had, he praises the people of Galatia for not holding that against him and not using that as an excuse to reject him. I know later in some of his epistles, he talks about a thorn in the flesh that the Lord chose not to remove despite being this great leader and faithful disciple of Jesus Christ. He wasn’t healed of this. This helped keep him humble and relying on God. So, we see a few kind of hints at this that Paul makes about whatever this physical ailment is. Again, some think that because of what he says here in verse 11, that it’s some kind of an eyesight issue. And I mean, yeah, it’s amazing that all that he did with whatever it was that he was dealing with.

Hank Smith: 00:57:29 Yeah, that’s something I did not know. That’s cool.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 00:57:32 Another thing that we see in this chapter is this law of the harvest that we reap what we sow. So, he turns that to sowing in the spirit so that we can reap life everlasting. In other words, if we’re doing things that the spirit is prompting us to, that will bring us blessings and lead us along the path. So, I like his counsel in verse nine, let us not be weary in well-doing for in due season, we shall reap if we faint not. So, part of the enduring to the end is to not be weary in well-doing, just continue to do these things. And verse 10 kind of continues that, we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.

  00:58:19 He does like to use a lot of that imagery of being a family of a household. Again, he’s trying to bring all these people together in one household of faith to receive all the blessings that God has for them.

Hank Smith: 00:58:35 Love it. John, anything on the law of the harvest?

John Bytheway: 00:58:38 I love all of the agricultural metaphors in the scriptures, they’re so interesting to me, but it’s such an obvious sign in nature that is everywhere, that if you plant figs, you’re going to get figs. And this law of the harvest is so good, but I like what Jared just pointed out in due season, there is a waiting period. One of my favorite statements of President Benson was that he said, one of the trials of this life is that we do not usually receive immediately the full blessing for righteousness or the full cursing for wickedness, that it will come at a certain, but oftentimes there is a waiting period that occurs as was the case with Job and Joseph.

  00:59:22 And that idea of a waiting period can be frustrating. Paul calls it, in due season, don’t be weary in well doing because it will come, but I think sometimes with young people that I know, “Hey, I’m doing this, where’s my blessing?” And it’s like, “Well, don’t ever get tired of doing well of well-doing because it will come. That’s the law of the harvest, but it may not be your timing. It may be after a season. Sometimes they’re longer seasons than others.” So, I love the council and the certainty of if you sow that, you reap this.

Hank Smith: 01:00:00 It takes a long time to go from seed to fruit, doesn’t it?

John Bytheway: 01:00:04 Yeah. I mean, if you plant an apple tree, you don’t really see an apple for, what is it, three years, four years, to actually get the fruit. In the meantime, you have to water it and nourish it and apply Alma 32, 33 to it. It takes a while before you get the fruit.

Hank Smith: 01:00:19 David O. McKay said, “Since man’s first advent on earth, God has been urging him to rise above the selfish groveling life of the purely animal existence into the higher, more spiritual realm. After several thousand years of struggling mankind, even now, but dimly recognizes the fact that the greatest of the world’s leaders are those who most nearly approach the teachings of the man of Galilee. This is psychologically sound because the thoughts a man harbors determines the realm in which he serves, be not deceived. Writes Paul to the Galatians, God is not mocked. For whatsoever a man soweth that shall he also reap for he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption, but he that soweth to the spirit shall of the spirit reap life everlasting.”

John Bytheway: 01:01:07 It’s so fun to see so many things that showed up in the articles of faith. Sometimes when we read Paul in verse 10, “As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men.” I mean, do you hear Article of Faith 13 in there? We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent. And in doing good to all men. I say, “Oh, well, that’s where he got that.”

Hank Smith: 01:01:28 Yeah, that is cool. Jared, Dr. Ludlow, this has been fantastic. I feel like I am grasping the epistle to the Galatians. If I’m at home and I’ve listened to these episodes with you, Jared, what are you hoping I walk away with from Galatians?

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 01:01:47 Well, I think hopefully a little bit of the context that Paul is dealing with these people who feel like they should continue Jewish practice as part of their path to salvation, and he’s trying to put the brakes on that and say, no, faith or trust and confidence in Christ is what you need to focus on. That’s the path to salvation. So, it’s faith in Christ, not works of the law of Moses that should be followed. I think also the notion that he is trying to bring together these disparate groups that have very different backgrounds and one’s been raised with idols and different world and cosmic perspectives versus the Jewish background that we’re probably more comfortable with because of the Old Testament and things.

  01:02:43 Trying to blend them together and a verse we didn’t read, but which kind of summarizes a lot of this is chapter three, verse 28, “There’s neither Jew nor Greek. There’s neither bond nor free. There’s neither male nor female, for you’re all one in Christ Jesus.” And if you are Christ, then you’re Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. He’s trying to lead them to this unity that brings them all the same promises and blessings. They can all become Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise. Some even wonder if that verse 28 is kind of a baptismal creed that some said at baptism, because verse 27 says, “For as many of you has been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ,” and maybe a believer would say there’s neither Jew nor Greek, et cetera, and then be baptized.

  01:03:37 It’s that unity that we also should be seeking within our own communities, whether that’s a ward congregation, whether that’s a neighborhood, whether that’s reaching to the other that we normally don’t associate with because they’re not part of our comfort zone, trying to find a way to do that. And I just love the promise of the fruits of the spirit that can enrich our lives so much and can help illuminate the path, that we know that we’re on the right path when we feel these fruits of the spirit. And what I love about that is that this is for all old, young, male, female, and we can all receive the benefit of these fruits of the spirit.

  01:04:21 And I just love Paul’s desire to help others to come unto Christ and to receive all of these fruits of the spirit so that they can have a better life and learn how to walk in the spirit. And that’s certainly something I want to do ever better in my own life.

Hank Smith: 01:04:42 Yeah. Come unto Christ, live a better life. Enjoy the fruits of the Spirit. That’s what we’re trying to do here, right, John?

John Bytheway: 01:04:51 Yeah, and as you said earlier, Hank, keep the main thing, the main thing, and that’s the gospel. That’s the doctrine of Christ. And don’t stray to another gospel. There’s no alternate plan of salvation. It’s the doctrine of Christ.

Hank Smith: 01:05:04 No. There is no other way. Jared, thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Jared Ludlow: 01:05:10 Pleasure.

Hank Smith: 01:05:10 Yeah, we loved having you. We want to thank Dr. Jared Ludlow for being with us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen. Our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week as we study the book of the Ephesians on followHIM. Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free, and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me study.

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