Hank Smith:                      00:00:00             Coming up in this episode on followHIM.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:00:03             But I went to my dad and I said, I don’t feel close to God at all. I didn’t tell him about the panic attacks. I just said, I don’t feel close to God. He said to me, well, Matt, President Benson, who was the prophet at the time, has told us to read from the Book of Mormon every day. Are you doing that? I said, no, I’m not doing that.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:31             Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with my humble co-host John Bytheway. John, I was reading Section 104 of the Doctrine & Covenants, three times in section 104, right at the very end, verse 79. The Lord says, you must have humility. Verse 80 inasmuch as you are diligent and humble. Then again in verse 82, inasmuch as you are humble. As I was reading those, John, your face came into my mind. John, you are as humble as I pretend to be. I’m telling you.

John Bytheway:               00:01:05              Well, I’m very proud of that.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:07             Yeah, for everyone listening out there who thinks what is John like in real life? He is. He is the most humble guy.

John Bytheway:               00:01:19             I cannot live up to these adjectives, Hank. So yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:22             It really bothers me how humble you are.

John Bytheway:               00:01:24             Next thing.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:25             Can’t he be a little more prideful? John we are privileged today to have our friend with us, Dr. Matt Godfrey. Matt, welcome back to followHIM.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:01:35             Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. This is going to be fun.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:38             We love Matt. He is one of the great church historians. John, we’re going to talk about Zion’s Camp today. You lead church history tours. I know you’ve studied the history of the church. What comes to mind when you think of Zion’s Camp?

John Bytheway:               00:01:55             Well, I think Hank, we’ve talked about this so many times. I hope people don’t mind me saying again, here’s this false expectations thing. When I read it, it sounds to me like, Hey, we’re going to get our land back. It’s interesting how it didn’t turn out the way people thought. Really excited to have Matt here who’s going to help us because not only has he read these sections of the Doctrine & Covenants, but he’s read the journals, transcripts. I’m excited to get my expectations to where they ought to be.

Hank Smith:                      00:02:25             John, you are right on. Expectations can get us in so much trouble. Matt, I know you’ve studied this your entire life, but as you’ve prepared for today, what are we going to do? What are we going to look at?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:02:37             I love these sections in the Doctrine and Covenants. I don’t know Hank and John if you’ve ever heard this, but I’ve heard some people who have taught the Doctrine and Covenants, whether Sunday school teachers, early morning seminary teachers. They say that the Doctrine and Covenants is a little bit harder to teach than something like the Book of Mormon because there’s no narrative thread in it. You have in the Book of Mormon Lehi’s family leaving Jerusalem. You have the wars in Alma and it’s easy to follow that thread and with the Doctrine and Covenants, you don’t necessarily have that with all of the sections. But I think with the sections today, we do have a clear narrative thread. One that will take us on a nice winding journey, no pun intended, with Zions camp or maybe pun intended. It’s not just through the Zions Camp Expedition, but it’s also on administrative developments in the church and some struggles with church finances that are going on at the same time, both of which impact Zion’s camp.

                                           00:03:38             I’m sure your listeners woke up today thinking, I really hope to listen to a podcast talking about administration and finance because those topics are so thrilling, but I think they really are important. I think what I’d like to talk about today is the formation of the Kirtland High Council and its significance in the overall structure of church leadership. Some of the financial troubles of the church stemming in part from the Jackson County expulsion that almost prevent Joseph Smith from going on the Zions Camp Expedition, and then of course to focus a lot of time on the Zion’s Camp Expedition itself. I hope as we talk about these things, that listeners will not only get an appreciation and a greater respect for these people in church history who sacrifice so much in their attempts to build Zion, in their attempts to help each other. Going along with what John was saying, I hope that this discussion will also help people who perhaps have had experiences in their lives where they feel like God hasn’t given them the answer that they wanted or they’ve expected something else. Their life has turned out something different from that because that can be a hard thing to navigate. There’s a lot of lessons to learn with Zion’s camp in that.

Hank Smith:                      00:04:59             Beautiful Matt, that sounds like a great plan. It does sound like something our listeners will love. John. Four years ago we had Matt here, but we might have some new listeners since that time, what do we know about Matt?

John Bytheway:               00:05:13             Anybody who’s seen some Joseph Smith Papers episodes or those podcasts, and you’ve probably seen Matt before. It’s fun to read his bio because he looks so young. It says, Matthew C. Godfrey is a senior historian and you’re like, I think he is a senior in high school. No, he’s a senior historian in the church history department in Salt Lake City. He has a PhD in American and public history from Washington State. Go other Cougars.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:05:39             That’s right.

John Bytheway:               00:05:40             Matt previously served as managing historian and general editor of the Joseph Smith Papers and was a lead historian on three volumes of the document series. That’s part of the Joseph Smith papers. He’s authored and co-edited several books, including this one’s brand new, God Knows You: Getting Real About Spiritual Challenges. That just came out. That’s what Deseret Book and Amazon. I’ve got this one too. Know Brother Joseph. I’m going to hold it up because I have it.

                                           00:06:09             There was one called They Knew The Prophet, but this one’s newer. He’s part of this one Perspectives on Joseph Smith’s life and character. I love what Elder Neil L. Andersen said, remember that conference talk. You guys talk to people who actually knew him. This is why I love that. That’s published in 2019, so that’s fairly new. He’s also published articles in variety of academic journal scholarly anthologies of Joseph Smith, the early church and Zion’s Camp. That’s why he is here. He’s a frequent speaker at Campus Education Week at BYU. He loves eighties alternative music, because I love eighties music, but I don’t know what eighties alternative music is. Anyway, go Toto. He loves reading. He loves all sports. He’s married to Carrie Huber. They have four wonderful children. Thanks for bringing all of that wisdom and experience to this. I love that you love Zion’s camp because I think Hank, don’t we have the expert on Zion’s camp here?

Hank Smith:                      00:07:09             Oh, yeah. This is the guy.

John Bytheway:               00:07:12             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:07:12             One of the reasons I love having people like Matt here, John, is there’s this fear. We talk about this often. There’s this fear that if you get to know church history, you’re going to lose your faith. Here’s the guy who knows. I mean, who knows. He spent a career in church history. He is as faithful as they come. Matt, I would say partly because of church history.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:07:40             Oh, for sure. I sometimes get asked, how does studying church history affect your testimony, and I think sometimes people are expecting me to say, oh, it destroyed it, or whatever else, but it’s the exact opposite. I had a testimony through the Holy Ghost about Joseph Smith before I really started studying his life, but spending 12 years learning about the prophet Joseph increased my admiration for him. So much the same with a lot of other figures in church history. They were so devoted, so willing to sacrifice, so obedient to what the Lord wanted them to do. It’s just really helped me to realize one, that they’re real human beings and two, that the Lord did a great work through these human beings.

John Bytheway:               00:08:25             Yeah, they’re people. I like how you talked about, there’s a narrative. You see a narrative of God working through imperfect people. In the Doctrine & Covenants, you see God constantly going, okay, I forgive you. Thankfully that happens again and again and again. Your sins are forgiven and we learn, as I’ve said many times, Hank not only that there is a God, but we learn what he’s like. That’s why I love the Doctrine & Covenants.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:08:53             Think sometimes we think, oh, church can’t promote my faith, but it really can and it’s definitely promoted mine and it’s helped me become a stronger member of the church just in learning more about how God deals with people, how merciful God is, how we’re all imperfect. We’re all going to make mistakes, but God doesn’t abandon us because of those mistakes. He helps us get back up and he can still do great things through us.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:19             I’ve noticed when the Lord calls people like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Emma, he doesn’t unmake them people when I call you to this work, he doesn’t say, well, you’re no longer a human.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:09:31             That’s a great point. Sometimes we feel like people in church history can’t have their own personalities and they can’t experience human emotions and they can’t have bad days or bad moments in their days, but they’re human beings, so they lived the human experience just like all of us live it and they have similar experiences and they have concerns and anxieties. All of that feeds into how they react to situations. Let’s have some charity for those in the past. We don’t want to be judged on our worst day or our worst moment. Let’s not judge others on theirs. Let’s give them charity that they were trying to do the best that they could do with their limited human understanding and with their personalities.

Hank Smith:                      00:10:19             Can you imagine? Let’s take everything you’ve ever written, anything anyone’s ever said about you, and let’s publish it, let’s let people study you. Can you imagine?

John Bytheway:               00:10:32             Yeah. Let’s put you under a microscope and let’s pick it apart. I love what you said, Matt. One of the things we hear more than ever is don’t judge. We’ve talked about that and final judgments and intermediate judgments. It’s amazing that we can be so judgy about somebody in the past who’s not here to defend themselves.

Hank Smith:                      00:10:53             Yeah. John, isn’t that called bullying?

John Bytheway:               00:10:55             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:10:56             Going after someone who can’t defend themselves.

John Bytheway:               00:10:59             Yeah. They’re not here. When I look at the common thread, I look, look what happened. Look at, I’m sitting here with Matt and Hank today because a 14-year-old boy said a prayer. Maybe the Lord chose him because he asked. it’s interesting that we wanna be careful about extending grace and judging. Well, let’s apply that to figures in the past too.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:11:24             John, there’s a scripture that maybe we’ll touch on today in one of these sections that talks about how the Lord blesses those who are willing. Getting to what you’re saying, Joseph Smith asked, Joseph Smith was willing, if we’re willing to do things that God asked us to do, even if we don’t do them perfectly, even if we are not even remotely close to doing them perfectly, if we’re willing to do it, he can still make great things happen from that.

Hank Smith:                      00:11:50             I think today the prophecy of Moroni is more fulfilled than ever before, good and evil. It’s not good and bad spoken of Joseph Smith. It’s good and evil. We shouldn’t be surprised when there are those who spend almost a part-time, full-time job trying to destroy Joseph Smith and speak evil of him.

John Bytheway:               00:12:14             What they’re saying then is Moroni is a prophet.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:17             Yeah, Every time, every single day.

John Bytheway:               00:12:20             Every time.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:21             Every single thing published. Wow. Moroni was right.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:12:24             Isn’t it remarkable too that that’s one of the very first things that Moroni told Joseph? Can you imagine being a 17-year-old, first having an angel appear to you and then have the angel say, Hey, guess what? People are going to love you and people are going to hate you and this is going to go on for a long time.

John Bytheway:               00:12:41             For a long time.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:42             He’s gotta be like, what did I do?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:12:45             Exactly.

Hank Smith:                      00:12:46             First of all, my name’s Joseph Smith. I promise you no one’s going to know my name and then two, what am I going to do wrong? Why would people hate me so much? In fact, doesn’t he say that in his own history it’s odd that people would attack someone who’s such little consequence.

John Bytheway:               00:13:04             Something that Elder Holland has said that has become more and more quoted by us and by everybody is that line where he said all that God has ever had to work with is imperfect people, and then he added it must be incredibly frustrating to him, but he deals with it, so should we, when you think about it, yeah. the Doctrine and Covenants is a testament that all God has ever had to work with for crying out loud. All of the scriptures are people that make mistakes. I love what you said, Matt. They’re willing and they’re trying to follow and because they’re willing God keeps working with them.

Hank Smith:                      00:13:38             One thing I’ve noticed, Matt, is sometimes friends, real friends of mine, and they’re good people. Once they get it in their head that Joseph Smith is a bad person, they’re locked in. They almost refuse to see it any other way.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:13:51             As you were talking about that, Hank, it made me think of something, an experience that Vilate Kimball had in Kirtland, Ohio, so Vilate was the wife of Heber C. Kimball the apostle. Heber, of course is over in England preaching the gospel when things are falling apart in Kirtland with the church because of the Kirtland safety societies, some other things, people are leaving the church and including some of the original 12 apostles. Vilate is writing to Heber about this, and she says in there, in her letter to Heber that many of their friends are turning away from Joseph. She doesn’t condemn them. She says, I still love these people. They’re still my friends, but they’re choosing to turn away. She says, I instead am choosing to continue to follow Joseph. What she’s saying with that is we have a choice of how we see Joseph Smith, of how we see Jesus Christ, of how we see the entire gospel. We can have faith in it or we can turn away from it. I love that Vilate makes that point that she sees people turning away, but she’s not going to, she’s going to choose faith. She’s going to stay with those spiritual experiences that she’s had that have told her that the gospel is true, that Joseph Smith really is a prophet and she’s not going to turn from those.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:18             That’s one of the reasons I love the book that all of the Joseph Smith Paper Scholars, a lot of them put out, John, you mentioned it, Know Brother Joseph. Here are people who have studied his life in depth for a career. They’re not hobby historians. These people paid the price, went through years and years of school. I’m sure you loved every minute of it, Matt.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:15:41             Every single minute, never a bad moment in graduate school.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:46             They love him. They’ve read his letters, they’ve read his journal. They know him and they love him. I would encourage everyone to get both of Matt’s books. Know Brother Joseph, and then this new one, God Knows You: Getting Real About Spiritual Challenges. Let’s jump in. I’m going to go to the Come, Follow Me manual. The lesson is called After Much Tribulation Cometh the Blessing, and here’s how the manual starts. The Saints in Kirtland were heartbroken to hear that their brothers and sisters in Jackson County, Missouri were being driven from their homes. It must have been encouraging then when the Lord declared that the redemption of Zion would come by power. With that promise in their hearts, over 200 men and about 25 women and children enlisted in what they called the Camp of Israel, later known as Zion’s Camp. It’s mission was to march to Missouri and redeem Zion.

                                           00:16:36             To the members of Zion’s camp redeeming Zion meant restoring the saints to their land, but just before they arrived in Jackson County, the Lord told Joseph Smith to disband Zion’s camp. Some members of the camp were confused and upset. It seemed the expedition had failed and the Lord’s promises were not fulfilled. Others, however, saw it differently. While the exiled saints did not get their lands and homes back the experience did bring a degree of redemption to Zion and it did come by power. Faithful members of Zion’s camp, many of whom later became leaders of the church, testified that the experience deepened their faith in God’s power, in Joseph Smith’s divine call and in Zion. Not just Zion the place, but Zion, the people of God. Rather than questioning the value of this seemingly unsuccessful task, they learned that the real task is to follow the Savior. Even when we don’t understand everything, this is how Zion ultimately will be redeemed. With that great introduction, Matt, how do you want to jump in here?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:17:39             Well, let me give just a little bit of background. Then we can get into section 102, which deals with the formation of Kirtland High Council. As that introduction mentioned, the Saints in late 1833, early 1834 are really reeling from what happened to them in Jackson County in July of 1831. The Lord had commanded the saints to build the city of Zion in Jackson County, and the Saints had made good efforts to do this. In the two years from 1831 to the summer of 1833, there had been about 1200 members of the church that had moved to Jackson County to build the city of Zion. There they feel like they’re doing what the Lord has asked them to do, but they run into problems with the other residents of Jackson County. There’s various reasons for those issues, one of which is the other residents felt overwhelmed by this large group of saints who had come there who didn’t conform to their political beliefs.

                                           00:18:39             Missouri a southern state, it’s a slave state at the time. Many of those saints coming to Missouri are from the north and aren’t slave holders, so there’s differences with that. There’s differences because of religion as well. There’s attacks on the saints in July of 1833, and the attacks only stop when church leaders in Missouri promise that they’ll leave the county over the next couple of months. These leaders, as they talk to Joseph Smith, as they think about things themselves, they start to think, we legally purchased this land that we have in Jackson County. We should be able to stay on it, right? Why should we have to leave?

John Bytheway:               00:19:20             It was kind of assumed that when we bought it, it means we could stay on it.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:19:25             That’s right. They start to look into some legal recourses that would allow them to stay on their land, and when the other residents of Jackson County hear about this, the violence breaks out. Again, the end of October, 1st of November, 1833. It’s a week of violence in Jackson County. That culminates with all of the saints being forced to leave the county. Most of them cross the Missouri River into Clay County. Some of them go into a couple of other counties in Missouri, but it’s cold at the time. The weather conditions aren’t great. They’ve lost everything that that they have in Jackson County and the people are really suffering. It’s really hard for the saints. This is a theme that we’ll see again as we talk about Zion’s camp. It’s hard for the saints because they think the Lord told us to build the city of Zion.

                                           00:20:18             We made a good effort to do that. Why didn’t he protect us? Why did he let these people drive us from our lands? They’re wrestling with this question. Even Joseph Smith wrestled with this question and wondered a little bit about what was going on where the Lord was in all of this. In December of 1833, Joseph writes a letter to Edward Partridge. He’s the bishop in Missouri and some other church leaders there to try to give them some advice, some support about what’s going on. He says some things in this letter that I think are are really remarkable, but he says, I know that Zion in her own due time with the Lord will be redeemed, but how many will be the days of her purification tribulation and affliction the Lord has kept hid from my eyes, and when I inquire concerning this subject, the voice of the Lord is be still and know that I am God.

                                           00:21:20             Now, that’s pretty remarkable when you think about it. This is Joseph Smith, the prophet of this dispensation, saying, I’ve asked the Lord when Zion’s going to be redeemed. He’s not telling me. He’s just saying, just trust me, things will work out. He continues on in this letter. He says, there’s two things of which I’m ignorant and the Lord will not show me why God has suffered so great calamity to come upon Zion, and by what means He will return her back to her inheritance with songs of everlasting joy upon her head. These two things brethren are in part kept back that they are not plainly shown unto me. Joseph in December is saying, I’ve asked the Lord why did this happen and how are we going to get our land back and the Lord’s not answering me. Now, for me, that’s a pretty comforting thing that that may sound a little strange because it’s a pretty tragic moment in church history, but it’s comforting to me because I’ve had moments in my life where I pray and I ask God questions.

                                           00:22:25             I don’t feel like I get an answer. It makes me wonder, well, what’s wrong with me? Do I not have enough faith? Is God angry with me for some reason? Why won’t he answer me? It comforts me to read that even Joseph Smith had moments where the Lord didn’t answer him right away and he told Joseph, be still and know that I am God. Just a week after this, Joseph gets a revelation. That’s section 101 in the Doctrine & Covenants, which you talked about last week. This revelation, when you read it, answers both of Joseph’s questions. The first part talks about why the Lord let the saints be expelled from Jackson County, and the second part talks about the nobleman whose land was overrun by his enemies and who told his servant to call up the strength of his house to go and redeem the land. Now, at the time that revelation’s given, I don’t think Joseph Smith necessarily understood what that parable meant and how it applied to him, but as we’ll talk about today, it becomes very clear in February of 1834 how that parable applies to Joseph Smith and how it’s instrumental in the formation of Zion’s camp. This brings us then into the formation of the Kirtland High Council, and you may ask now, what does this have to do with Zion’s camp? We will get there.

Hank Smith:                      00:23:49             Matt, maybe as we’re listening today, our listeners can have in mind. We want to understand the history, but also we’re going to talk about why difficult things, why really hard things can happen to those who are really trying.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:24:05             Yeah, I love that. I hope people have that prayer in their heart that the Spirit will help them understand that as we talk about these chapters.

John Bytheway:               00:24:15             So the problem is the Lord said, go to Missouri, which is in itself, how come you told us to gather to Ohio, and now you’re telling us Zion’s going to be in Missouri.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:26             A thousand miles away. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:24:29             No, gather to Ohio, but now this is in Missouri. They went, they bought land, but they’ve been persecuted. Have they been pushed off of that land?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:24:38             Yes. They’re pushed off the land in November of 1833.

Hank Smith:                      00:24:42             Not out of the state, but out of the county.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:24:45             Out of the county.

John Bytheway:               00:24:46             We call it Zion’s camp. In my mind, camp is stationary. It’s more like Zion’s expedition. We’re going to take a group and go there. A journey you called it. The Lord is a little vague. Is that right? Says you’re going to redeem it. We’re using that word, which means buy it back or get it back.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:08             I’m not going to buy it back. I already paid for it.

John Bytheway:               00:25:11             Right.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:11             I’m not going to buy it. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:25:12             We’re going to redeem it, but we’re going to go get what is ours.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:17             Put the saints back on their land. Yeah, our friends.

John Bytheway:               00:25:21             Yeah. That would’ve been my expectation. Okay, let’s go get our our land back. That’s kind of what Zion’s camp is more like let’s assemble a group, the strength of my house, we’re going to get there and we’re going to go get the land.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:34             So in essence, Matt, I’ve heard that my friend John has been kicked out of his house. It’s his house. He paid for it, and he sends me a letter. I got kicked out of my house. I’m camping over here across the Millcreek River, and I write back, John, the Lord has told me to come up there and get you back into your house, so I’m coming. Does that sound right?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:25:58             That’s exactly it. As you’re talking about people having kind of a prayer in their heart to understand a little bit better why bad things have happened to them or why things haven’t turned out for them the way that they expected, I know that they’ll get answers to that. They’ll, hopefully, the Spirit will tell them something about that. I doubt that the Spirit will tell them, well, if you want an answer to that, go talk to the high council, but that’s kind of what happens here with Zion’s Camp. We’ll get to that in just a second, but I want to talk just a little bit about how the Kirtland High Council forms, because it forms right around this same time period that we’re talking about. As some background, when the church is organized in 1830, Joseph Smith’s appointed the first elder, Oliver Cowdery appointed the second elder.

                                           00:26:48             Over the next months and years, there are additional offices that are implemented into the church. Edward Partridge is called as a bishop, the first bishop in the church. Then when he’s told to go to Missouri, Newel K. Whitney is called as another bishop for Kirtland. Joseph Smith becomes the president of the high priesthood in January of 1832. He calls a couple of counselors in March of 1832, and they form what they call at the time the presidency of the high priesthood and what we know today as the First Presidency. There’s a revelation that Joseph gets in November of 1831 that provides some information about other offices in the church. This revelation that’s given in November of 1831 is actually published in 1835 in the Doctrine and Covenants. We know it today as section 107. There’s additional material that Joseph Smith gets in 1835 that’s combined with this 1831 revelation.

                                           00:27:57             If you go to section 107 in the Doctrine and Covenants verses 78 and 79, this is what the Lord tells Joseph in November of 1831. He says, verily I say unto you, the most important business of the church and the most difficult cases of the church, inasmuch as there is not satisfaction upon the decision of the bishop or judges, it shall be handed over and carried up unto the council of the church before the presidency of the high priesthood and the presidency of the council of the high priesthood shall have power to call other high priests, even 12, to assist as counselors. Thus, the presidency of the high priesthood and its counselors shall have power to decide upon testimony according to the laws of the church. What these verses are telling Joseph in November of 1831, if a case has come before the bishop of the church and the bishop has made a decision and the individual doesn’t like that decision, they can then appeal to the presidency of the high priesthood and the presidency of the high priesthood can then call 12 high priests to sit as a council to hear an appeal from that case.

                                           00:29:07             This was kind of an ad hoc thing that as the necessity arose, Joseph could call 12 high priests to serve as these counselors. February of 1834, Joseph decides that instead of just having this be on an ad hoc basis, he’s going to call a standing high council, or he’s going to call 12 high priests to serve as a high council. That can function as an appellate court for the church, but that can also, as it says in section 102 verse two, settle important difficulties which might arise in the church. February of 1834, Joseph holds a meeting in which he forms the Kirtland High Council, and it says in section 102 that the presidency of this Kirtland High Council is the presidency of the high priesthood. Essentially, Joseph Smith, Sidney Rigdon, and Frederick G. Williams, who form the presidency of the high priesthood or the first presidency, they’re not only serving in that general capacity, they’re also serving as the presidency of the high council, which is kind of an interesting thing, so they have a dual role here.

                                           00:30:27             The other thing that is interesting is Joseph, in this meeting says that he is organizing the Kirtland High Council on the same principles that governed the order of councils in ancient days. He’s actually already talked about this to the high priests about what that order of councils was. I think this is interesting. He says, anciently, when they would hold these councils, you couldn’t whisper, you couldn’t lose your focus. You couldn’t fall asleep until

John Bytheway:               00:30:57             In high council? What? That’s why we fall asleep. Right?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:31:03             Exactly. Joseph is saying, this is how they operated councils in ancient days. Then he goes on to say, but in our councils, generally one would be uneasy, another asleep, one praying, another not, one’s mind on the business of the council and another thinking on something else.

John Bytheway:               00:31:24             Multitasking.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:31:24             Joseph saying that about this council, I mean, most councils that I’ve been to I think fit that description. We have a high standard that we’re supposed to follow with councils, even though Joseph was talking about high councils here, I think this also pertains to ward councils or to family councils or to any other thing that we need to try to be focused in those meetings so that the Lord’s revelation can come to us. It kind of made me think when I read that quote from Joseph of an experience I had when I was in a bishopric once. A lot of times in our bishopric meetings, we talk about callings that the people had. We’d bring up a name and it seemed fine, so we’d go ahead with that calling, but I remember very clearly one specific meeting that we were having as a bishopric, and this was soon after we had been called as a bishopric, we’re still kind of new and fresh.

                                           00:32:18             We were really dialed in. We were locked in as the kids may say these days, in trying to figure out callings for our ward, we had this moment where we were trying to consider a leader for one of our organizations, a president for one of the organizations. We talked about a few names and just couldn’t come up with anything that felt good. Suddenly, our bishop mentioned a name. I’ve never had this experience before. The Spirit came over me. I knew that was the person. It was really something really remarkable to me, and I think it was because we were dialed in. We were trying to be focused. We were trying to have the Spirit and know God’s will. I think what Joseph is saying here, it feels like a high ideal because you know, if you’re sitting in a two hour meeting or whatever else, it’s hard not to get uneasy at points. That if we can stay focused in, in our word councils and bishopric meetings again, and family councils, then it really does allow the Spirit to really speak to us and help us.

John Bytheway:               00:33:26             Interesting, so yeah, don’t be casual or detached during the meeting.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:33:31             Yeah, exactly. Joseph Smith establishes this high council. Again, in verse two, it says, to settle important difficulties which might arise in the church. After this council is organized on February 19th, 1834, it begins to serve that function. It begins to serve as a body that will consider important things in the church, significant things that touch on church business. Now, this is where we get back into Zion’s camp because this high council is organized on February 19th, 1834, five days after this, so it hasn’t even been a week that this Kirtland High Council has been established. Two individuals arrive in Kirtland from Missouri, Lyman White and Parley P. Pratt. They’ve been sent there by the leaders in Missouri to get help from the Saints because the Saints are suffering so much there. Who do they come to? Who do they talk to about this? They go to the Kirtland High Council.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:41             Would they have even known that that happened?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:34:44             They wouldn’t have known on their way over there that that’s who they were going to talk to. I think they thought they were just going to talk to Joseph Smith, but when they got there, Joseph basically says, we have this high council that we’ve set up. They’re the ones that are going to hear about the situation, and we’ll make a decision, based on what the high council feels.

Hank Smith:                      00:35:03             That’s interesting. It was put in place and right when it was needed.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:35:08             Right when it was needed.

John Bytheway:               00:35:10             I love what it says in verse two, important difficulties which might arise in the church, which could not be settled by the church or the Bishop’s Council. This is an important difficulty.

Hank Smith:                      00:35:21             Yeah. Inherent in verse two is probably difficult things are going to come up. I mean, why would the Lord even do this? It’s going to happen. It reminds me a little bit of Matthew, is it Matthew 19, the community discourse. He says, look, if you’re going to be this community, if you’re going to be the kingdom of God, here’s some ideas on forgiveness and you’re like, well, why will we need that? Why would we need? Well, just trust me on this. Maybe we shouldn’t be surprised when we run into problems and difficulties. It’s like you say, John, the Lord plans on us making mistakes. That’s why he said, let’s do the sacrament, hmm, I don’t know, every week.

John Bytheway:               00:36:05             We will bolt the table to the floor.

Hank Smith:                      00:36:07             No, I think you’ll need every week, trust me on this. Sometimes when the Lord puts things in place, we should assume we’re going to need them, that he knows that, yeah hard things are going to happen. I’m going to give you some avenues to deal with that.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:36:26             Yeah. I think this really shows too the whole principle of line upon line, precept upon precept when the Lord reveals things, because when the church is first organized, the Lord doesn’t establish a First Presidency, Quorum of the 12 Apostles, Quorum of the 70 like we have today, and it’s just gradually over time, as Joseph Smith has different questions about things, as the church has different needs, as the Lord can foresee, okay, we’re going to need this in place by this time that you have these developments in the church occur. That’s something that I think is really important when you consider Joseph Smith in his role as a prophet, that Joseph doesn’t know everything at once, but he gets revelation line upon line as he needs it and as the church needs it. I think it’s the same for us too. I mean, at least it is for me in my own life.

                                           00:37:20             I sure wish sometimes that I could know what the Lord has in store for me or what the whole plan is. For me, it’d make life pretty easy. It’d take out a lot of anxiety that I face sometimes in life, but the Lord doesn’t do that. He reveals things line upon line, precept upon precept as they’re needed, and as that light comes, Elder Bednar has talked a lot about revelation. He’s compared it to a light being flipped on in a dark room or a sunrise or a foggy day. As he has talked about those things he has said, the light being switched on where you just all of a sudden know everything that’s more rare than it is frequent, but the foggy day where you have just enough light to take a few steps forward, and then you get more light. He said, that’s the way I receive revelation all the time, and I think that’s the same for us, that the Lord will reveal things as we need them. He’s not going to tell us everything all at once, but he’ll give us enough light that we can move forward.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:28             Same with that sunrise. It’s almost imperceptible that it’s growing. It’s so slow, but yet if you look over the long run, you’re like, yeah, it has changed. I know a lot more than I used to, but I couldn’t have told you exactly when everything happened.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:38:44             Exactly.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:45             Matt, just real quick, I wanted to ask you about something you mentioned earlier. That is Joseph Smith saying, I’m bringing back or restoring ancient councils. When I look in the Bible, Old Testament, New Testament, I’m not seeing exactly what he means by ancient councils.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:39:04             There’s not a lot in the New Testament or the Old Testament that touches on these ancient councils. I think Joseph says essentially that he’s seen these councils in vision that the Lord has shown these councils to him. That’s how he knows how they operated is because the Lord has shown this to him. It’s not because he has read it in the New Testament or he is trying to extrapolate something from that. It’s because the Lord has shown him things that have been lost to the historical record.

John Bytheway:               00:39:36             Is that a journal entry? Is that in the Joseph Smith papers, what you just read?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:39:40             It is, yeah. He talks about it in minutes of a meeting that is held on February 12th, 1834, so seven days before the Kirtland High Council is formed. He talks about how he’s seen the order of ancient councils.

Hank Smith:                      00:39:56             It’s interesting, I mean, you do have the Lord calling 12 apostles. Maybe it’s safe to assume he wanted them discussing things together. One of the geniuses of church organization is councils. Sometimes the meetings can get a little long. Everybody has input. You can make a much more informed decision.

John Bytheway:               00:40:18             I think, too, it’s kind of evidence of I’m thinking a cult leader would be No, no, no, no. You have to ask me everything. I am in charge, but here he is setting up. Well, you guys handle this. We’re going to set up a whole council for important difficulties.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:40:35             President Ballard emphasized the importance of councils in the church. They’re so important to how the church is governed and not just the general church that’re so important to how a ward is governed to how a stake is governed as well. But some of the best meetings that I’ve been in were, when I was in a YSA Ward bishopric, we had ward council. We had a variety of people from different organizations there who were all offering their opinions. You could just feel the Spirit there. You could feel that this really is how it’s supposed to operate, the input that everybody has.

Hank Smith:                      00:41:11             I remember John, Sister Aburto was here last year. She talked about sitting in councils with apostles. It was fascinating. She taught us that the Lord can dispense pieces of revelation to every member of the council, and that as they share that, each piece of revelation creates the whole.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:41:35             Yeah, it’s so important to have those different perspectives too, because we’re not all the same. We’re taught that by Paul in the New Testament that the body of Christ needs all of its different members, and the hand doesn’t do what a foot does. The ear doesn’t do what a hand does, but they’re all important for me. I’m kind of an introverted person. A lot of times in ward council, I’ll bring up, well, if we do this, how are people that are a little more introverted going to feel if we do this? And that’s an important perspective to have. It’s important to get those different ideas and different opinions and different life experiences from people. That’s really how the revelation comes.

John Bytheway:               00:42:19             Could I read something from Section 88? This has been really helpful to me. When we talk about all kinds of meetings in the church, it’s verse 122. That’s a long section, isn’t it? Verse 122 in section 88, appoint among yourselves a teacher and let not all be spokesman at once, but let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his sayings. There’s that focus thing you’re talking about, Matt, and when all have spoken that all may be edified of all, and that every man, we could add, every woman may have an equal privilege. I read a book years ago about how the norm in some meetings is everybody’s assuming, look, if that guy has something to say, he’ll say it. The loudest voices get heard. This is saying, let not all be spokesman at once. Let one speak at a time and let all listen unto his or her sayings. I mean, it sounds to me like when they put that group together, they want everybody to have a chance to be heard.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:43:21             The best leaders recognize that. There have been several leaders in the church, leaders of the different general organizations who have talked about President Nelson, how if they’re in a meeting with President Nelson and they haven’t said anything, he’ll ask them and say, well, what do you think about this? He’s trying to solicit all of that information from everybody in the council, not just focusing on those who are comfortable speaking up, but also focusing on people who might not be so comfortable speaking up.

Hank Smith:                      00:43:52             Yeah. Can I read something from 1994, you guys, this is the last millennium. This is Elder Ballard, who we just talked about.

John Bytheway:               00:44:05             I was single in 1994.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:07             Oh my word.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:44:08             So was I. Yeah.

John Bytheway:               00:44:10             This is going back. Yeah, I bet you guys were.

Hank Smith:                      00:44:12             I was in high school. Alright. He talks about doing a lot of trainings, focusing on board councils. He said, at these trainings, I would usually give a bishop a theoretical problem about a less active family, and asked him to use the ward council to develop a plan to help this family. Without exception the bishop took charge of the situation and immediately said, here’s the problem, and here’s what I think we should do to solve it. Then he made assignments to various board council members. This was a good exercise in delegation, I suppose, but it did not even begin to use the experience and wisdom of council members to address the problem. Eventually, I asked the bishop to try again, only this time, to solicit ideas, what you both said, and recommendations from his council members before making any assignments. I especially encouraged him to ask the sisters for their ideas.

                                           00:45:07             When the bishop opened the meeting to council members and invited them to counsel together, the effect was like opening the floodgates of heaven. A reservoir of insight and inspiration suddenly began to flow between council members as they planned for fellowshipping this family. He says, I’ve seen the same scenario play out over the last six months as he was doing this training, and then at one point he calls a ward where the bishop does everything the one cylinder ward. He says, the one cylinder ward is where the bishop handles all the problems, makes all the decisions, and follows through on all these assignments. Then like an overworked cylinder in a car engine he is soon burned out. The one cylinder ward.

John Bytheway:               00:45:52             That was really good for those listening in English. It’s interesting that a council, C-O-U-N-C-I-L is the group, but we sit in council or we counsel with each other, C-O-U-N-S-E-L. What you’re expected to do is to counsel with each other, not just be a group, a governing body, but to counsel.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:46:16             One last thing on the high council here, and then maybe we can move on and start talking a little bit more about Zion’s camp and it’s formation, but I think it’s important to note that when this high council is formed in February of 1834 for Kirtland, Ohio, this is at a time before the Quorum of the 12 Apostles exists. The Quorum of the 12 aren’t called until 1835. The Kirtland High Council has charge of settling these important difficulties in Kirtland. After Joseph Smith gets done with Zion’s camp in Missouri, before he comes back from Missouri to Kirtland, he will form another high council in Missouri. After this same pattern that we have in section 102, that high council was to settle important difficulties in Zion because Missouri’s designated as Zion. Then in February of 1835, when the 12 apostles are called, one of their designations is as a traveling high council.

                                           00:47:24             You can read that in section 107 where it refers to the 12 as a traveling high council. I remember being a teenager and reading in section 107 and going, why in the world are the 12 referred to as a high council? They’re the 12 apostles, but the reason for it is that in these early years of the church, the Kirtland High Council had responsibility for Kirtland. The Missouri High Council had responsibility for Zion, and the 12 apostles as a traveling high council, had responsibility to settle important difficulties in all of the branches outside of Kirtland and Missouri. They were supposed to travel to these other branches and hold disciplinary councils when they needed to administer the church there in these different branches. That’s why the 12 is referred to as a traveling high council in section 107, because that was one of their early functions.

Hank Smith:                      00:48:20             Just a quick question then, Matt, I’m sure we’ll get to this in our next episode. The 12 apostles in their position we know them today that wasn’t how it was in the beginning, like First Presidency, Quorum of the 12, everybody else. That wasn’t the case then.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:48:37             When you read section 107, it says that the Quorum of the 12 Apostles stands next to the First Presidency.

Hank Smith:                      00:48:43             Okay, so it is there.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:48:44             But it also says that they’re equal in authority to the Kirtland High Council, and the high council in Zion to these standing high councils. There’s some confusion that exists because of that. When the 12 apostles are first called, there’s a meeting that was held on one occasion in Kirtland where Joseph Smith asked for the opinion of the Kirtland High Council before he asked for the twelve’s opinion. Some of the 12 apostles were upset by that. They said, no, look, we are supposed to stand next to the First Presidency. Why did you go to the Kirtland High Council first? They’re kinda working these things out as they go, but then eventually in 1841 in Nauvoo, Joseph Smith appoints the 12 to stand with the First Presidency to administer the church at that time. That’s when they take on this more general function is really in 1841.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:36             Wow.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:49:37             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      00:49:37             This is so great to have a historian here, John. Let’s keep going Matt.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:49:42             I’ve talked about how Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White are sent from Missouri to come to Kirtland because the Saints in Missouri need help. They come and they meet with the Kirtland High Council, and this meeting with the Kirtland High Council occurs on February 24th, 1834. Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White tell them about the plight of the saints in Missouri. They say, we are really suffering. The saints are suffering. We don’t have enough food. It’s cold. We don’t have clothes, we don’t have land. We don’t have jobs. We need help.

Hank Smith:                      00:50:13             We’ve been kicked off our own land. Can we just talk about this for a second? This is the United States of America. I own my property. Someone came on with a gun and said, you have to leave your own property, or I’m going to hurt you. I’m going to, I’m going to shoot you. I’m going to kill you. It’s horrific. I know it’s the Wild West out there, but it’s still the United States.

John Bytheway:               00:50:39             It’s kind of like the Constitution. The principles were like a promissory note. They were an aspiration. We’re not there yet. Yeah, Right. We’re not there yet. Freedom of religion. We’re not there yet. Yeah, so you’re out on the frontier and it’s two six shooters is what’s justice, or when I was learning this as a kid, like you said, Matt, I’m like, wait, I thought there was, you know, freedom of religion and… well…

Hank Smith:                      00:51:03             Maybe in Ohio they’re, are they mortified? They just took it.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:51:08             Yeah. Well, the funny thing is Joseph Smith has several letters in Ohio around the same time where he says, you’re suffering a lot in Missouri, and I recognize that, but we’re suffering here too. There’s persecutions being levied against us as well in Ohio. Now it’s not nearly to the extreme as it was in Missouri, but eventually it’ll get to the point where Joseph has to flee Kirtland and come to Missouri because he’s worried about his life. He thinks he’s going to be killed if he stays in Kirtland. It’s not just from people who aren’t members of the church, from people who have been members who have fallen away. Those are the ones that he’s really concerned about when he leaves Ohio. It’s an interesting concept that if you are a religious minority in the United States in the 1830s, you don’t necessarily have the same rights as the religious majority.

                                           00:52:04             It’s not just Latter-day Saints who are affected. Catholics suffer severe persecution in the United States during this same time as well, and in fact, that’s one reason why Joseph Smith decides to run for president in 1844 before he is killed. One of the main parts of his platform was he said, the Constitution declares religious liberty, but the government as it exists right now cannot protect the religious liberty of minorities or will not protect those. He says, if I’m elected president, I will make sure that religious minorities are taken care of. He’s not just talking about Latter-day Saints. He’s talking about any group that is in the minority. People should feel free to believe what they believe without fearing reprisals or violence or whatever else.

Hank Smith:                      00:52:56             Wow. So they’ve got news. Hey, we’ve been kicked off our own land. How much land did they have?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:53:03             I think Edward Partridge had purchased around 2000 acres of land in Jackson County. Remember too that the Saints in Missouri at this time were trying to live the law of consecration. When they would come there, they would concentrate their money, their possessions to Edward Partridge, and he would give them an inheritance, which was essentially a plot of land that they could live on and farm and make a living off of. That’s what the land was, was being used for at the time. So it was a pretty significant amount of land that the church held that they were being deprived of at this time.

Hank Smith:                      00:53:37             Just taken. You had said earlier that in late 1833, they had maybe looked into the law like getting a lawyer. That made it worse.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:53:50             Yeah. They had consulted with attorneys about how can we stay here. When people heard about that, they’re like, well, wait a second. If they’re doing that, then they’re not going to leave like they agreed to do. If they’re not going to leave on their own accord, we’re going to have to kick them out with violence.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:06             They agreed to do because we were pointing a gun at them. Yeah.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:54:11             Exactly.

Hank Smith:                      00:54:11             You agreed to this. Well, I… It’s because you were going to shoot me if I didn’t agree. Man. Okay. This would be a, I think an intense meeting.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:54:22             Yes. And it gets even better. The minutes of the meeting say that after Parley P. Pratt and Lyman White had spoken, after they had counseled together about this, this is what the minutes say, brother Joseph then arose and said that he was going to Zion to assist in redeeming it. He then called for the voice of the council to sanction his going, which was given without a dissenting voice. He then called for volunteers to go with him when some 30 or 40 volunteered to go who were then present at the council. Can you picture that in your mind that Joseph probably feeling as indignant about this as we’re all feeling right now, and we didn’t live through it. We’re not here at the time, stands up and says, I am going to Zion to assist in redeeming it. Who’s coming with me? And he gets 30 or 40 people who volunteer at that time.

Hank Smith:                      00:55:19             These are our friends. These are people, man.

John Bytheway:               00:55:24             Hey Matt. I have a question. When Lyman White and Parley P. Pratt travel, how long of a journey is that and was there a stage coach? What was available like if you wanted to go help right now, what was the fastest way available?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:55:37             Yeah. Probably the fastest way if you were trying to get from Ohio to Missouri would be to take the canal that then would go into the Missouri River, and then you take the river down until you got to Jackson County or Clay County, which is where the Saints were at this time. But if you remember from Section 61, I believe, in the Doctrine and Covenants, the saints were told not to travel to Zion on the water. I think Lyman and Parley probably came by horseback. They may have taken a stage coach as well because there were stage coaches that ran between the two.

John Bytheway:               00:56:12             So Interesting. And how fast would that be?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:56:15             It’s not very fast. If you’re looking at how long it took, like mail to travel from Missouri to Ohio at this time it was usually three weeks. It’s a pretty lengthy journey to get there.

John Bytheway:               00:56:28             Wow. You’d want to send help, but…

Hank Smith:                      00:56:33             That’s six weeks away at least. Right? You’re going to get there, tell them and come back. Wow. So Joseph says, I’m going.

John Bytheway:               00:56:42             Who’s with me?

Hank Smith:                      00:56:44             Yep. Who’s with me?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:56:45             Who’s with me?

Hank Smith:                      00:56:45             Let’s go.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           00:56:47             Sometime on this same day, and we don’t know whether it was in this meeting of the high council, whether it was earlier than this, or whether it was later than this after this meeting, but sometime on February 24th, Joseph receives what we have as section 103 in the Doctrine and Covenants. This gives official approval to Joseph’s idea that he’s going to go to Zion and he’s going to help the saints there because this whole section talks about how the saints should redeem their land. Now, hearkens back to section 101. Remember we talked about that parable of the nobleman whose land had been overrun, and in section 103, the Lord tells Joseph Smith, you remember this parable that I gave, and you remember how the nobleman told his servant to call up the strength of the Lord’s house to go and redeem his land? Well, Joseph, you are that servant.

                                           00:57:44             You need to go out among the church. You need to call up the strength of the Lord’s house, and you need to go and redeem Zion. That’s essentially the message that the Lord is giving Joseph in section 103, the first part of the revelation talks again a little bit about why the Lord let the saints be driven from Jackson County. So he talks about verse one at the end of it he talks about those who have been scattered on the land of Zion, being driven and smitten by the hands of my enemies on whom I will pour out my wrath without measure in mine own due time for I have suffered them thus far that they might fill up the measure of their iniquities, that their cup might be full. He’s saying one reason for the suffering is to fill up the measure of the iniquities of the saint’s enemies.

                                           00:58:34             And then verse four, he says, and that those who call themselves after my name, so he’s speaking about church members there, right? Those who have been baptized, who have taken upon them Christ’s name, that those who call themselves after my name might be chastened for a little season with a sore and grievous chastisement because they did not hearken altogether unto the precepts and commandments which I gave unto them. What’s the Lord talking about there? Like what is he referring to there? Well, I think one thing that he’s talking about is something that he told the saints back in September of 1832. This is a year and a half prior to this time, and it’s in section 84 of the Doctrine and Covenants. Section 84 if you go to verses, we’ll start with verse 54 in section 84. Now in this, the Lord is speaking to those in Zion as we’ll see in verse 56.

                                           00:59:31             He talks about that he’s talking to the children of Zion. Verse 54, your minds in times past have been darkened because of unbelief and because you have treated lightly the things you have received, which vanity and unbelief have brought the whole church under condemnation and this condemnation resteth upon the children of Zion, even all they shall remain under this condemnation until they repent and remember the new covenant, even the Book of Mormon and the former commandments, which I have given them not only to say but to do according to that which I have written, that they may bring forth fruit meet for their father’s kingdom, otherwise their remaineth a scourge and judgment to be poured out upon the children of Zion as early as September of 1832. The Lord is warning those in Zion, look, you need to pay more attention to the Book of Mormon.

                                           01:00:29             You need to bring forth fruit meet for the father’s kingdom. You need to act the way that you should act, act according to the things which are written, and if you don’t, there will be a scourge and a judgment to be poured out. Now, later documents that we have from Joseph Smith, and it’s from meetings that are held in December of 1832 letters that are written to leaders in Missouri in January of 1833 talk about how one of the issues was that leaders of the church in Missouri were thinking that they knew better than Joseph Smith about different things. They weren’t listening to Joseph’s counsel, one of the leaders in Missouri, John Coral, who was a counselor to Bishop Partridge accused Joseph of setting himself up as a monarch, just kind of dictating things to them and not letting them govern themselves. So there’s tension from 1832 into 1833 between leaders of the church in Missouri and Joseph Smith.

                                           01:01:39             That’s what the Lord’s referring to in section 103 when he’s talking to them there about you did not hearken unto the precepts and commandments. He’s talking about those leaders of the church who weren’t listening to Joseph and who were thinking that they knew better than he did. And that’s an interesting thing to consider. One, that the Lord had told the saints in Jackson County a year and a half, months before anything happened there that they needed to repent. If they didn’t, there was going to be a scourge and a judgment poured out upon them. And then he’s refreshing their memories about that here in section 103 in verse four saying, you remember that I told you that this is one reason why this has occurred. That brings up another point for me. I’d love to get your insights on this because this kind of sounds like the Lord punishes us when we sin. If we sin, if we do something wrong, then the Lord’s going to cause bad things to happen to us. And I just wonder what your thoughts are about that.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:45             Matt. I love the question. In my mind, natural consequences are effective teachers. Sometimes when I hear the Lord say things like this, in my mind I think he’s saying, I’m going to allow the consequences of your choices to play out. That’s going to hurt a little bit. As a parent, we’ve all seen this play out in our children’s lives. Please do this, please do this, please do this. Okay, we’re going to let the natural consequences of your decisions to play out, it’s going to stink. That seems to me to be often what the Lord says when he says, here comes a little chastisement. It may not be him saying, I’m going to cause this chastisement, I’m going to punish you. Often I think it’s him saying, alright, you’re going to get what you chose. In the long run, it’s going to help.

John Bytheway:               01:03:45             That’s exactly what I was going to say. I was going to say, I feel like Jehovah, when I think Old Testament, he’s always a teacher. He’s going to teach them. They wouldn’t learn anything if, oh, I just love you, nevermind. But consequences come. Hank, you’ve heard me say, my dad used to say, if you pick up one end of the stick, you pick up the other. There’s a consequence, and that’s not a bad word. Sometimes there’s awesome consequences. You know, Elder Maxwell says, we must want the consequences of what we want. Right? You better want what you want.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:18             Yeah.

John Bytheway:               01:04:18             That’s kind of what I was thinking too. I don’t think it makes him happy. I don’t think it’s a joyful thing for him, but I think he’s a teacher. It’s kind of like the guy that went to the doctor, said, it hurts when I do this. He said, don’t do that. Okay, so I’ve just learned.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:34             I broke my arm in three places. Well stop going to those places.

John Bytheway:               01:04:40             Yeah, stop doing that.

Hank Smith:                      01:04:40             Matt, what do you think?

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           01:04:44             For myself, growing up as a teenager and even later in life reading those verses, I probably would’ve thought, oh, it’s because God’s going to punish me. If I sin, if I do something wrong, he’s going to get me. I think as I’ve matured a little bit over time, and it’s been a long process, I think I’ve started to understand a little bit more that God isn’t like that. He’s not waiting for us to slip up so that he can then levy some harsh punishment on us, but he is someone who wants us to experience mortality. We chose to experience mortality. We knew that we would come here and that things would be difficult. As both of you were saying, I think what he’s saying here, and it may be in language that was a little more Old Testament like language from a people who I think tended to see God’s punishment in everything that happened.

                                           01:05:46             What he’s really saying here, he was warning the saints back in September of 1832. If you keep disregarding this counsel, not great things are going to happen to you. Not that I’m going to cause the Missourians to come attack you and kill you, but there’s going to be consequences that will follow that. And I think he’s reiterating that here. Yes, there are things that happened because you didn’t listen and you didn’t obey. I didn’t want those things to happen. I’m sad that they happened, I mourn with you, but they happened because you didn’t listen. Maybe from this you can gain a little better perspective that when I tell you to do something or when Joseph Smith says something, maybe you ought to follow it and then maybe you can save yourself a lot of suffering if you do that.

Hank Smith:                      01:06:38             Let’s use the specific warning that the Lord gave them about the Book of Mormon. Please take the Book of Mormon seriously, please study it. Please learn from it. Then you don’t. What are the natural consequences of not studying and reading the Book of Mormon? Well, you’re not going to have the wisdom and the insight that the Book of Mormon could have given you in specific situations. I can think of plenty of times in my life where something has happened and a story or a doctrine from the Book of Mormon has come to mind, but had I never read it or studied it, that would not have come to mind. Maybe part of this is the Lord saying, if you would’ve read the Book of Mormon and studied it like I told you to, like I asked you to, you could have saved yourselves a lot of problems.

John Bytheway:               01:07:30             Not even just the precise words or stories of the book, but the access to the Holy Ghost that can help you in the moment. I have compassion for bishops out there who come to a conclusion that they have to let somebody hit rock bottom. That if they keep lowering the floor so that they won’t hit rock bottom, they don’t learn. Man, that’s a tough one because you feel like you want to help and then you’re, maybe the best thing I can do to help is let somebody feel the natural consequences of their behavior. Like you said, Hank, that’s an interesting discussion to have, but some people hitting rock bottom was the beginning of starting over again. The rock they hit, I heard somebody say was the Savior. That was, I’m going to build on this rock. I hit this rock, I’ll build on this and and get out and maybe it’s a good thing. I don’t know, I think we’re kind of on the same page that he’s teaching them. He’s teaching them what natural consequences can come and I’m so glad, Matt, you brought that up. Go back to 84 and look at how they were warned.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           01:08:45             One personal experience that I like to share that kind of touches on this a little bit. The other thing to consider too is that sometimes things happen because of the agency of others, which I think was a large reason why the Saints were kicked out, is because of the Missourians who kicked them out. They made that choice. Sometimes things happen because we live on a fallen earth. We are not perfect and our bodies aren’t perfect and they have defects, but if we follow what our prophets and apostles tell us, if we follow what the scriptures say, then we can sometimes find peace even in the midst of hard things that are happening to us. Not because of anything we did, but because someone else’s agency or because of something that’s afflicting us is an example of this. When I was a teenager, I had a couple of times in my life where I had panic attacks.

                                           01:09:49             You know, I’m a teenager back in the eighties, you didn’t really talk about mental health a lot back then, I didn’t really know what was going on with myself. Looking back on it now, I can see that for most of my life I’ve had anxiety. I suffer from that. I still suffer from that. After a couple of these episodes, I went to my father looking for some peace on this because I felt very distant from God. Some of that was because of some choices that I was making at the time that weren’t the best choices. But I went to my dad and I said, I don’t feel close to God at all. I didn’t tell him about the panic attacks. I just said, I don’t feel close to God. He said to me, well, Matt, President Benson, who was the prophet at the time, has told us to read from the Book of Mormon every day.

                                           01:10:41             Are you doing that? I said, no, I’m not doing that. He said, well, maybe something that you could try is just to follow his counsel and start reading from the Book of Mormon every day. See if that helps you feel closer to God, and that seemed like an easy thing for me to do. I said, okay, I’ll start doing that. I started reading from the Book of Mormon every day, and there have been very few days in my life since then that I’ve missed reading in the Book of Mormon. Sometimes it’s not a lot that I read, but I always try to read something from the Book of Mormon every day. Now, my anxiety didn’t go away and I had panic attacks after that, but I found a greater peace came into my life and I found that I started to feel the Spirit more strongly than I had been feeling it, which I think helped me cope with some of these things that I was experiencing.

                                           01:11:37             I wonder if some of what the Lord was telling them in Section 84 wasn’t, if you pay more attention to the Book of Mormon and to things that Joseph Smith is telling you to do, some of these things might still happen. You might still get driven out there, but if that happens, you’ll be able to have that closeness of the Spirit. You’ll be able to feel close enough to me that I can comfort you and help you get through it. That for me is what happens. Sometimes the Lord doesn’t necessarily take away the trial, but he helps us deal with it when we are obedient, when we try to become closer to him through the scriptures, through other means.

Hank Smith:                      01:12:19             That’s excellent. What a great thought that yes, you’re driven out because of the choices of your enemies. Oh, if you follow the counsel of the Prophet and really get into the Book of Mormon, it wouldn’t be as sore and grievous to you because you and I could be so close, we’d be in tune. What a great idea there, Matt. What a great insight.

John Bytheway:               01:12:42             It reminds me of the Book of Mormon people when wicked priests of King Noah is it Amulon that shows up there at Helam, and he’s like, Lord says, I will lighten the burdens upon your back. And you’re like, thanks. Could you just remove them? No, I’m just going to lighten them.

Hank Smith:                      01:12:58             I will strengthen your back. Right?

John Bytheway:               01:13:00             Yeah, yeah. I’ll strengthen your back so that you can bear your burdens, so you’ll still have them. They couldn’t pray out loud, but you can’t stop anybody from praying in their heart, and so they did that.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:12             Let me read that, John, that’s Mosiah 24:14. I will ease the burdens which are put upon your shoulders that even you cannot feel them upon your back. So they’re still there, even while you are in bondage. And it came to pass that the burdens which were laid upon Alma and his brethren, he didn’t take them away, but they were made light. The Lord did strengthen them that they could bear their burdens with ease and they did submit cheerfully and with patience to all the will of the Lord.

John Bytheway:               01:13:43             I love the word all in there. To all the will of the Lord.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:46             Yeah, it’s a pretty high percentage word.

John Bytheway:               01:13:49             There’s some great things he wants to give us, and sometimes the will of the Lord is I’m going to let you be in bondage to Amulon and the wicked priest for a while.

Hank Smith:                      01:13:57             Thanks for that, Matt, and thanks for sharing that from your personal life.

John Bytheway:               01:14:01             Yeah.

Hank Smith:                      01:14:02             There’s going to be many listeners who think, yeah, maybe I can’t get this mental health challenge, maybe it’s not going to be taken from me, but the Lord can give me strength and peace as I deal, as this burden is still on my shoulders, quoting from the Book of Mormon there. Coming up in part two of this episode.

Dr. Matt Godfrey:           01:14:26             When I got my patriarchal blessing, I was I think 14 years old. It told me about my mission. It said, I promise you that you’ll have success on your mission. Well, when I got my mission call, the age of 19, I was called to the Belgium Antwerp mission, which is the Dutch speaking part of Belgium. I served two years in Belgium. It was super hard and there were not many people who wanted to talk to us about religion.