John Bytheway:               00:00:00             Welcome back to part two with Dr. Derek Sainsbury, Doctrine and covenants 98 through 101.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:08             Some people might say, well, why didn’t they go to the police or the law? They were in the mob. I was reading Bruce Van Orden, I think you have a little bit of this too, Derek. He says, Samuel Weston, a justice of the peace grabbed a club to ward off the Mormon defenders. Or how about the sitting Lieutenant Governor Wilburn Boggs who says, exclaims with satisfaction, Mormons are the common enemies of mankind and ought to be destroyed. You know what our Jackson County boys can do and you must leave the country.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:00:45             The Lieutenant Governor.

Hank Smith:                      00:00:47             Yeah.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:00:50             Goodness.

John Bytheway:               00:00:50             And if you walk around Independent Square, you see monuments to different wars and skirmishes, and you see Wilburn W. Boggs on some of those in different military ranks as he rises in rank. Now, I thought I heard that Governor Boggs had employed Mary Rollins as a babysitter a couple of times.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:01:11             Yes. In fact, he tries to convince her to leave Sidney Gilbert and I’ll adopt you. You’re too good for this group of people. She’s a very impressive young lady.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:24             Derek, move us into 98 here.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:01:26             What happens is that three days later they have another meeting.

Hank Smith:                      00:01:30             Is it going to go like the last meeting?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:01:33             Right? They have another meeting. In fact, let me read you this from Emily Partridge, because they said they’re going to meet again in three days. The bishop’s daughter Emily, later wrote in her memoir that church members had no idea what the mob might do. Thus, the brethren armed themselves and held regular prayer meetings. This is her quote. Children had heard so much about the mob that the word was a perfect terror to them. They would often cry out in their sleep and scream, the mob is coming, the mob is coming. Talk about trauma for these little kids and these young people, they’d say they’re going to meet again on the 23rd. They show up, hundreds of them again, carrying red flags, which is an international symbol of blood and violence. They grab the leaders again, they take them to the county jail. When they take them away, they say, say goodbye to your families. You will never see them again.

                                           00:02:26             These six men, Phelps, Partridge, Coral, Morley, Gilbert, and John Whitmer offered to surrender up themselves as victims if that would satisfy the fury of the mob and purchase peace and security for their unoffending brethren, their helpless wives and innocent children. They say that, we’ll literally die. You can kill us six if you’ll just leave everybody else alone. And the response to that is, no. Everyone leaves or every man is put to death with no other option. They sign the memorandum that they and three other leaders will leave by January 1st and half of the people. And that the other half leave by April 1st that Sidney Gilbert could stay behind as a general agent for the church to wind up the business of selling everything that the newspaper must cease operation, which they’ve already done. And that in return for doing those things, we’ll make sure that there’s no further violence as long as you comply with the terms that are agreed upon.

                                           00:03:31             Oliver Cowdery heads straight to Kirtland with the news. Just a few days later, the second platte of Zion shows up in Missouri that had been mailed and they’re like, yeah, it’s a little too late for that. Joseph Smith now back in Kirtland, two or three weeks later, but before any news, any letters or even Oliver Cowdery show up on August 6th, he writes a letter and he includes two sections that will become Doctrine and Covenants 97, which you covered in your earlier podcast, which says, Zion is the pure in heart, but also says that Zion will be cast down in the fire unless they observe their covenants and build the house of the Lord. And then section 98. Now last thing before we get to section 98, because it’s not addressed specifically to Zion, although it fits and in one small section it’s addressed specifically to Kirtland. We know it’s for both areas, and that brings us back to our Doctor Philastus Hurlbut on that mission that we saw him earlier.

                                           00:04:34             He comes back and he’s accused of being immoral with some young women. He’s excommunicated on a technicality. He brings appeal. Joseph Smith reinstates him and then he goes around bragging, look what I got him to do. They didn’t know that before he was a Latter-day Saint preacher he was a Methodist preacher and he got kicked out of their church for the very same reason. Once he’s kicked out the second time, he is full of wrath and he goes around preaching against Joseph Smith, gets a local committee of men who don’t like the Latter-day Saints in Kirtland, gets them to give him money to go back east to dig up any dirt he can on Joseph. Comes back and starts giving lectures and is threatening Joseph’s life even threatening his family. That’s what’s going on in Kirtland the same time the stuff down in Jackson County is going on, which leads to section 98, which let’s turn to as we look at these verses, Hank, I want you to be thinking about what are some of the things the Lord’s asking us to do when we have these kind of difficult trials? John, looking for why God allows or what’s the purpose of trials? I’ll be looking at the character of Christ. So let’s just do the first three verses, John, will you read those first three verses and we’ll look for those things.

John Bytheway:               00:05:57             Section 98. Verily I say unto you, my friends, fear not, let your hearts be comforted. Yea rejoice ever more and in everything give thanks. Waiting patiently on the Lord, for your prayers have entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth and are recorded with this seal and testament. The Lord has sworn and decreed that they shall be granted. Therefore, he giveth this promise unto you with an immutable covenant that they shall be fulfilled and all things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good and to my name’s glory, saith the Lord.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:06:36             So Hank, what do we see in there about what it is that we should be doing?

Hank Smith:                      00:06:40             This is rough. Let your hearts be comforted. Rejoice, give thanks. Be patient and trust that all of these difficulties will end up being for your good.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:06:56             Okay. You said that’s rough. Why did you say that’s rough?

Hank Smith:                      00:07:01             That’s just not the answer I want. I want the Lord saying, you are right. These are terrible people. Let’s go take care of them together. Very similar to what the Lord is going to tell Joseph in Liberty Jail. Be patient.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:07:16             That patiently is going to come up. That word gets repeated. Bear it patiently all over this section.

John Bytheway:               00:07:24             He sees the end from the beginning. He has the long game in view and everything that you’ve been afflicted will work together for your good because he’s seeing some sort of an outcome that we don’t see at the time. Like you said, Hank, that’s not what I wanted to hear.

Hank Smith:                      00:07:41             Man, that is so tough. I’m sure we have listeners who are in not the exact same situation but have been hurt by other people’s decisions. The Lord’s answer is rejoice, be comforted. Give thanks. Be patient. This will work out for your good. It’s true. We all know it’s true.

John Bytheway:               00:08:04             We understand it conceptually.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:08:07             I was thinking about this time about let your hearts be comforted. Let, I thought about Jacob, how after the supposed death of Joseph, Genesis says the book of Genesis, he refused to be comforted. He refused to be comforted. I’ve been pondering that these past weeks. What does it mean to let your heart be comforted? I mean, God obviously wants to comfort us. I think at least in my own sorrow, in my own struggle, I’m often not open to letting him comfort me. I wonder how I do that better. Let him comfort me.

Hank Smith:                      00:08:52             There’s a sense of humility there.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:08:55             Or maybe even let him comfort me through others trying to comfort me. Often we shy away from those that try and offer us help. I’ve been pondering a lot about that idea because he says it again here in this section and then he says it again in 101.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:15             There is a sense of humility there where I don’t want to be comforted. I want you to fix it. Let me comfort you. Let your hearts be comforted. I can do that.

John Bytheway:               00:09:28             And I’m reading it a hundred and whatever 80 years later and my heart is angry. I’m like, come on.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:09:37             This is Zion. This is your work.

Hank Smith:                      00:09:41             You look at verse three. This is the promise unto you. I promise you, with an immutable covenant, these things will work out. This is strong language.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:09:53             Yeah. Seal, testament, sworn, decreed, promise, immutable covenant. He’s not only using strong language, he’s using a lot of it. Trying to convince us that it will work out, but it’s so difficult when you don’t have his point of view to see that it’s going to work out.

John Bytheway:               00:10:16             We don’t see the long view. Hank, you mentioned how this idea is repeated. I have next to there Romans 8:28 which says very close to the same thing. All things work together for good. Footnote three B is section 122 verse seven. All these things shall give thee experience and shall be for thy good. He says this sort of thing a lot.

Hank Smith:                      00:10:40             I’m getting the feeling of these first three verses are you are heard and you are seen. I’m not minimizing what you’ve been through.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:10:50             I love that he says my friends. Right. It doesn’t start out my servants or you dingbats or anything like that. It’s my friends. It almost has an intimacy to it. We might even call it a covenantal intimacy because of what he said in section 59 and what he’s going to say in 101 about us being his jewels about owning us. There’s this intimacy about it that you are my friends. I see you. I hear you and every word I can find in your broken English language, I promise you that in the end, this will all work together for your good.

John Bytheway:               00:11:34             I look at Edward Partridge’s response of how did he couch that? He said, the disciples, how did you put it? The Jesus’s people have suffered in every age of the world. That was the perspective he had. This is what disciples of Christ submit to sometimes.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:11:52             Willing to receive that. I think that’s very interesting. What does it mean to work together for your good? All these things, not just some, all these things wherewith you have been afflicted. There’s some terrible things going on here. It’s going to get worse and then if we skip ahead five years to the extermination order and the things that happen in Farr West from sexual assault, everything you can think of that’s evil is going to happen. All things wherewith you have been afflicted shall work together for your good. I don’t know if you guys, you probably have, but it’s the most underused talk by a church leader in the history of this dispensation. Okay? It’s called the Theology of Suffering by Francine Russell Bennion of the General Board of Relief Society. It’s in the over the pulpit series. She gave it in 1986 at a BYU Women’s conference.

                                           00:12:55             I teach Foundations of the Restoration and when we do Liberty Jail, they read the full letter that Sections 121, 122, 123 come out and this. For almost all of them it’s the first time they’ve read it. It is powerhouse amazing. She goes through all of these cherry picking of verses and using that to explain suffering. You see this all throughout these sections we’re looking at today where the Lord says, I have suffered these things to happen or not I’m causing them to happen, I am allowing them to happen because I value eternal intelligence and eternal agency above all things because that’s the only way you can become like me. I have to value that, but I can do something from it. This talk is, I mean I would read it, I would watch it. I would study it. It is so, so good. Let me just give you a couple of her words because it’s so, so good.

                                           00:13:54             She’s teaching a religion class. She says, what will the Celestial kingdom be like? Well, says one student. There won’t be problems like we have here. Well, what kind of problems? Well, for one thing, everyone will be happy. There won’t be any unkindness. No one there will be rejected or abused or laughed at or ignored. She responds, oh, are you suggesting that God experiences none of these things now and then there was silence for a moment. She says, in wanting to get to the celestial kingdom, these students had more awareness of traditional struggle for utopias than of our own God and our own world. The celestial kingdom was a place to get away from suffering, not a place to understand it and address it in ways consistent with joy and love and agency. We know God weeps because of being rejected, because of his children doing things to one another.

                                           00:14:58             We know Christ can only be our Savior because of the suffering that he experienced. She just does a really good job. It’s well worth reading. It’s all doctrinally in bounds where she’s helping us see that part of life is to suffer, that it is to gain experience. In fact, she doesn’t put it in these words. These are my words, but it’s what she’s teaching. That part of what it means to become like God is the ability to take suffering or take anything negative and turn it into good. That’s part of what it means to be God. Our heavenly parents are able to experience both joy and suffering, not one or the other.

Hank Smith:                      00:15:47             We can link that talk on our show notes. Just go over to followhim.co. It’s on your gospel library app. If you want to just head over to the website, we can show you where that is. There is a theology of suffering. Uh, it’s so scary to me personally. I think that’s so scary that the thing I want most to become like my heavenly parents. There’s one avenue to get there and it’s suffering.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:16:13             But it’s not just suffering. It’s how we respond. I love her words, how we respond with joy, love and agency. How we can couch it in those things. You know in section 101, we have the Lord saying that you’re being chastened as Abraham was, Abraham wasn’t chastened overnight. It was a bunch of different things he had to do. It wasn’t just the sacrifice of Isaac. This is a process of learning how to deal with suffering, gaining experience, being sanctified, being purified, purified because in this section also in 101, especially in this section, the Lord uses the word justified over and over again when he is talking about if your enemies come upon you, you’re justified if you do this, but if you forgive them, there’s these greater blessings. Life isn’t just about being justified, about being saved. Life is about becoming sanctified. Learning how to become like our heavenly parents, which means you have to treat suffering, bad use of agency, all that other kind of stuff. You have to learn how to treat it differently and that doesn’t mean putting yourself in harm’s way or creating trials or difficulties for yourself. It does mean learning how to respond to them in a God-like manner, which doesn’t happen overnight I don’t think. It’s not happening to me overnight I know that.

Hank Smith:                      00:17:36             As I was looking in section 98 to prepare for today. If someone was in deep suffering, you could go through section 98 and 101, take a green pencil and mark all the things that you could do in suffering. The Lord is very empowering. It’s not sit there and just suffer. There’s a lot that you can do. Forsake evil, cleave to the good. That’s verse 11, verse 12. You’re going to learn line upon line, precept upon precept. He says in verse 15, abide in my covenant. Seek diligently to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers. There’s a lot of what’s habit one, be proactive. Forsake your sins, right? It’s just not the stuff I want to do in my suffering.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:18:26             In going through these four sections, I found 36 and some of them are repeated different things that the Lord says we can do to act when we’re in suffering. Do you want to read those? Fear not let your hearts be comforted. Rejoice evermore. In everything give thanks. Waiting patiently, which has done a lot, prayer, which has done a lot, observe all things which I command them, which has done a lot, forsake all evil, cleave to all good. Live by every word that proceedeth forth out of the mouth of God. Lay down your life in my cause for my name’s sake. Be not afraid of your enemies. Abide in my covenant. It’s different from keep. Abide is this idea of like a permanent dwelling, right? Abide in my covenant even unto death. Renounce war and proclaim peace. Seek diligently to turn the hearts of people. Let your heart not be troubled.

                                           00:19:31             Bear it patiently and revile not neither seek revenge. Receive the Lord. Continue proclaiming my gospel. Follow me and listen to the counsel which I shall give you. Declare whatsoever thing you declare my name in solemnity of heart, in the spirit of meekness in all things. Continue your journey and let your hearts rejoice. Keep my commandments. Be gathered. Be found upon the watchtower. Remain and be pure in heart. Should gather together and stand in holy places. Endure in faith when you’re called to lay down your life for my sake, fear not again even unto death. Care for the soul. Seek the face of the Lord always. He that abaseth himself shall be exalted, willing to be guided in the right and proper way for their salvation. Let not your gathering be in haste nor flight, but let all things be prepared before you. Willing to hearken unto my voice. Importune for redress and redemption by the hands of those who are placed as rulers. Pray ye therefore that your enemy’s ears may be opened unto your cries. It is my will that my people should claim and hold claim to that which I have appointed them. In other words, hold onto what you’ve already got and then finally bring forth fruit meet for my kingdom. There’s a lot we can do, but of course it’s still hard. None of those things there are easy at all.

John Bytheway:               00:21:15             I’d love that list. There’s probably not a harder time to do all those things than what they’re going through. When I think about persecution, oh, somebody wrote an article about us in the paper or somebody, but violence against people, violence against your family. That’s woo. You’re backed up to the wall of faith there.

Hank Smith:                      00:21:35             The beautiful thing that I can find in what you read there is that the Lord can tell us to do those things because that’s what he did. Everything that you listed there, you can go to the New Testament and you can read about him doing those same things.

John Bytheway:               00:21:53             Like that article that you mentioned. He has descended below them all as he’s going to tell Joseph.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:22:00             In fact, that’s what makes him who he is. In the premortal existence He understood and volunteered to be our savior, but he didn’t know experientially as Elder Maxwell used to teach what that meant. Until he walks into the Garden of Gethsemane and your sins and my sins and your struggles and my struggles crush his innocent soul. The gospel writers say he’s not kneeling. He’s flat on his face. It’s crushing, literally crushing the blood out of him. It’s so bad that he’s asking for a different route to accomplish the same thing. So bad that in his only autobiographical account of it in Section 19 that we studied earlier this year, I want to shrink, which is 1830s talk for quit and walk away. He goes out, sees that they’re sleeping, his apostles. This is the part guys that teaches me everything I need to know about Jesus.

                                           00:23:07             That is when he goes in the second time, he now knows what it means to walk into this. It’s not a shock anymore in the sense that he hasn’t experienced it. He has now and he goes back in a second time and he has and he goes back in a third time. Then he goes on the cross. God himself, his spirit for the first time in his existence is withdrawn from Jesus and he is forsaken. He still goes through with it. He still goes forward despite everything screaming at him not to. In His resurrection now with all of that experience, he now can be our savior. He now can succor us because he has the experience, not just the abstract idea, but it has to be lived. It’s the same thing for you and me. I mean this show’s called this podcast is called Follow Him.

                                           00:24:11             Everything about the gospel is following the example of Jesus Christ to in a sense end up in the same place, the same nature that he has in the pre-existence and this is something that Sister Bennion talks about in her theology of suffering. We agreed to this. Again experientially we didn’t know it. Coming here to earth and going through the experience of reality of mortality, which is: includes, is not limited to, but includes suffering is what can allow us the same way the Savior did, and this is why I thought of it, Hank, because you said all those things we just listed. Those are all the things that Jesus does. We learn how to do the same thing in covenant relationship, meaning we don’t have to get it right like he did. We can learn and time, line upon line, precept upon precept to have that experience so that on the other side of resurrection we too have the character of Jesus and the character of our fathers, but it requires us to go through this. I often laugh at myself and at others when we think I’m living the gospel or our famous church video. I’ve been the good guy. I’m doing everything right. Yet these bad things are happening to me as if we don’t worship the central thing of our worship is a man who had everything wrong happen to him by doing everything right, as if Jesus himself did not say, if you want to follow me, pick up your cross daily and follow me.

Hank Smith:                      00:25:47             Now I want to read a portion of a talk I’ve referred to often it’s called Trust in the Lord Richard G. Scott, 1995. There’s this one paragraph I’d love for you both to hear. He says, to exercise faith is to trust that the Lord knows what he’s doing with you and that he can accomplish it for your eternal good even though you cannot understand how he can possibly do it. We are like infants in our understanding of eternal matters and their impact on us here in mortality. Yet at times we act as if we knew it all. When you pass through trials for his purposes, as you trust him, exercise faith in him, he will help you. That support will generally come step by step, a portion at a time. The Lord says that right? Right in section 98, I will give unto the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept. Back to Elder Scott. He says, this is the part I really don’t like. While you are passing through each phase, the pain and difficulty that come from being enlarged will continue. If all matters were immediately resolved at your first petition you could not grow. Your father in heaven and his beloved son love you perfectly. They would not require you to experience a moment more of difficulty than is absolutely needed for your personal benefit or for that of those you love. This is a sobering topic.

John Bytheway:               00:27:22             Yeah. In verse 12, it says, he will give unto you the faithful line upon line, precept upon precept. I will try you and prove you herewith. Do you have to? To try you. I look at the word trial in there like a trial run and prove me now herewith in Malachi tests and trials and maybe part of it as we’ve been talking about kind of that Abrahamic thing, what was Hugh B. Brown’s statement about Abraham? Abraham needed to learn something about Abraham. Maybe these teach us something about ourselves as we go through them and expands our souls. One of the things that I’ve noticed is I’ve called it same boat therapy. What that means to another person when you get in the same space and you can say, that happened to me, but it’s wonderful to be able to talk to somebody like that, Derek, what you’ve shared today, I bet there are a lot of people out there who are going, wow, someone else knows how I feel.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:28:29             In a small way, we get to participate in His work of helping others to come unto Him and let themselves be comforted by Him.

Hank Smith:                      00:28:39             Derek, section 98, especially with the history you’ve given us, really it has some depth to it. When you understand how much these people are suffering, this isn’t, we got to Missouri and it got really hot. That’s the least of their worries. He says, I am preparing a place for you. That’s verse 18. I’m purifying you. I’m chastening you. The gates of hell will not prevail against you. Maybe it’s the fear that I’m not going to make it through this suffering. You’ll be rewarded. he says in verse 30, for your righteousness. Again, I just think of our listeners out there who are suffering with all sorts of different struggles, all sorts of different trials, things that maybe they chose, things that are just part of being on planet earth and then some things are chosen by other people’s agency and then even some maybe are the Lord or the Lord choosing to test us and grow us. What you get out of section 98 is a very loving God who has not only given you a pep talk, but also saying, I’ll walk this journey with you. The end is worth it, I promise. Is that Isaiah where he says, my ways are not your ways. My thoughts are not your thoughts. You’re going to have to trust me.

John Bytheway:               00:30:07             I’m looking at verse 30 thinking about, for some people they’re thinking, I’m okay, but I’m watching my children. I’m watching my extended family wander and I look at verse 30 again Hank, thanks for pointing that out, and then if thou wilt spare him, thou shalt be rewarded for thy righteousness and also thy children and thy children’s children. I just love hanging on to verses like that to say, maybe you don’t get this, but I’m going to watch after your children too. We’ve said this beforehand, Hank, this is my work and my glory. It’s not your job, it’s my work, my glory. I got this. I’ve got you. I’ve got your children and your children’s children. Ooh, I want to hang on to that.

Hank Smith:                      00:30:53             So Derek, we’ve looked at 99 because it came in the wrong order and 98. Where do we go next?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:31:02             Where we go next is Oliver Cowdery shows up and gives a full account of what’s happened. He and Joseph write separate letters over the next couple of days, just one quote from a PS that Joseph puts on Oliver’s letter back to the saints. Brethren, if I were with you, I should take an active part in your sufferings, and although nature shrinks yet my spirit would not let me forsake you unto death. God helping me. Oh be of good cheer for our redemption draweth near. Oh God, save my brethren in Zion. Oh, brethren, give up all to God. Forsake all for Christ’s sake. That’s so powerful and so, so beautiful. He and Oliver give some great counsel to the saints. Again, none of them knowing what’s going to come next, which is the expulsion from Jackson County. In fact, in the letter he’s also talking to the saints, telling them, hey, we’ve got our own problems here too.

                                           00:32:08             By the way, this Doctor Hurlbut, he’s trying to destroy the church. Here he is trying to destroy my family. In fact, one source says that he quoted as saying he would wash his hands in Joseph’s blood. Do you remember our friend John Murdock out preaching out in Courtright where he was born? He finds a report on September 6th in the newspapers that the brethren had been driven out of Zion or surrendered it, which they haven’t yet, but that means his kids that are there, including his little daughter who’s with the Gilberts. He said, I wept much before the Lord. Orson Hyde and John Gold were sent back to Independence and they get there in September with instructions to reach out to the governor. They do that. They reach out to the governor, please come help us. October goes by, that’s where we get section 100. There have been some people who had recently joined the church who wanted to have Joseph and Sidney go preach to their family members in upper New York and lower Canada on either side of Niagara Falls.

                                           00:33:18             That’s where we get section 100 is because Joseph and Sidney, they decide to go on this mission. They leave on October 5th. On October 12th Joseph writes in his journal, I feel very well that the Lord is with us, but have much anxiety about my family. Remember the whole thing going on with the threats from Doctor Hurlbut about hurting his family, that he’s also got to be worried about what’s going on in Zion too, right? It’s got to be forefront of his mind while praying. The two of them received this revelation, which again begins with my friends, Sidney and Joseph, and then your families are well, how comforting must that be to them? I think of missionaries. I know missionaries these days are so lucky they get to contact their families every week and see them face to face and yet it wasn’t always like that. To know that your family is well must have been a great, great and powerful blessing from the Lord to hear that.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:26             Yeah, we live in a world, don’t we? We can get information pretty quickly. Where is this person? How are they doing? But when you’re living in 1830 and the person that you’re praying for and thinking about is 800 miles away, you have nowhere else to turn.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:34:46             but to the Lord.

Hank Smith:                      00:34:47             Yeah, to the Lord.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:34:49             I like the rest of verse one. They are in my hands and I will do with them as seemeth me good for in me is all power. That goes back to trust me that you were saying earlier. Trust me, it’s interesting in the New Testament, the Lord has talked about, Jesus has talked about as being faithful and we go, wait a minute. Don’t you have to have faith in Jesus, faith in himself? No. He’s faithful to the promises that he’s made and in fact that faith in the New Testament is actually more that sense. Even when we’re talking about us, well, we’ll be faithful to God even when things aren’t going the way that we think. Will we stay loyal to him and that’s what he’s saying here is that they’re in my hands. Be faithful in my character. I have all power. I know what’s going on. They’re in my hands. Well, that kind of trust comes from building a relationship. Joseph and Sidney, they have taken the time in their lives to build that kind of relationship where when the Lord says it, they can feel secure that what he’s saying is real. That what is happening is according to his will.

John Bytheway:               00:36:01             When it says, I will do with them as seemeth me good. Do you think the Lord wants any input from us? Because could you do God of justice for that and God of mercy for us please? and I say these things, little advice. That’s just all I was thinking is. It is comforting to know, look, I’ve got this. I’m going to handle this, but I kind of know how I want him to handle it.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:36:30             Right? Not just because of this verse, but because of other verses, because of teaching of prophets, because of my own personal experience, I really am of the belief that when this is all done, when the kingdom is delivered up at the end of the millennium, we will see and know beyond doubt that he has acted in every way, whether that’s directly or delegated or however it all panned out, that he has acted for every person who’s ever been on this planet for their good and has given them every opportunity possible to progress, to choose what they want to be. That’s the God I think I understand, that I feel and that I believe in. I also like in verse four where he says, I the Lord have suffered, which means allowed. I the Lord have allowed you to come unto this place. For thus it was expedient in me for the salvation of souls.

                                           00:37:29             That’s another verse that although he’s talking about their specific mission here that we could also plug into our suffering. We often talk about we’ve been brought to this bad place. I’m in a bad place. I the Lord have suffered or allowed you to come unto this place for thus it was expedient in me for the salvation of souls. You mentioned earlier, John, how someone who’s in our same situation can be a savior with a little s in helping us come to the Savior because of they’ve been in that place before. I’ve been there. I’ve experienced that. That’s another positive way we can look at trials when we’re trying to figure out what’s going on. Why is this happening? Souls are being saved if we’re doing this right.

Hank Smith:                      00:38:20             John, how many times have I said, listen to the pen of heaven here, section 100 verse 12 basically through the end, continue in your journey, let your hearts rejoice, for behold and lo I am with you even until the end, Zion shall be redeemed, although she is chastened for a little season, down to 15, let your hearts be comforted. There it is again. For all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly and to the sanctification of the church, I’m sanctifying you for I will raise up unto myself a pure people that will serve me in righteousness and all that call upon the name of the Lord and keep his commandments shall be saved. It’s a very calming revelation when you are probably full of turmoil. What do I do? How do I deal with this? How do I make it through? I think the Lord is be still and know that I’m God. That section 101.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:39:24             It’s tough. Speaking of 101, 101 needs to come in response to a couple of things that are to happen. On the same time Joseph and Sidney are on this mission Governor Dunklin receives a visit from Edward Partridge and Orson Hyde. His official response to what happened is, no citizen or number of citizens have a right to take the redress of their grievances, whether real or imaginary into their own hands. Such conduct strikes at the very existence of society and subverts the foundation on which it is based. However, nobody’s going to be charged with anything. He has his attorney general decide that the Saints should bring a civil suit for damages and loss. Again, it’s kind of a halfway measure. He should be helping enforce the law. Instead, he’s saying, you can sue for redress. We say, okay, well, we’ll do that. We go hire some lawyers including Alexander Doniphan who will become a big part of our story in future episodes.

                                           00:40:32             October 20th, we publicly announce we’re going to stay and do these lawsuits. On Halloween, it always happens on Halloween. In Missouri, things go bad as they realize in their view, we’re not keeping our agreement to leave. This is from Philo Dibble our friend, remember who’s come down there and consecrated. He says, on Halloween night, quote, A mob of about 150 came upon us in the dead hour of night, tore down a number of our houses and whipped and abused several of our brethren. I was aroused from my sleep by the noise caused by the falling houses and had barely time to escape to the woods with my wife and two children, their little children. When they reached my house and proceeded to break in the door and tear the roof off I was some distance away from where the whipping occurred, but I heard the blows of heavy ox goads, whips, upon the backs of the brethren. Distinctly we heard firing.

                                           00:41:29             This is November 2nd. In the Whitmer settlement and 17 of us volunteered to go down to see what it meant. When we arrived at the Whitmer settlement, the mob came against us and took some prisoners. Brother David Whitmer brought us the news of this and said, every man go and every man take a man. We all responded and met the mob in battle in which I was wounded with an ounce ball and two buckshot all entering my body just at the right side of my navel. The mob were finally routed and the brethren chased them a mile away. Several of the brethren were also shot and one named Andrew Barber was mortally wounded. After the battle was over, some of the brethren went to administer him, but he objected to their praying that he might live and asked them if they could not see the angels present in the room, that the room was full of them and that his greatest anxiety was for his friends to see what he saw and he passes away.

                                           00:42:26             About three in the morning, a couple of men on the other side are killed. A couple of the members of the mob are killed, including a young lawyer who specifically came to Independence to join the mob and swore he would wade in blood up to his chin. After the battle, I took my gun and powder horn and started for home. When I got about halfway, I became faint and thirsty. I wanted to stop at Brother Whitmer’s to lay down. The house, however, was full of women and children and they were so frightened that they objected to me entering, as the mob had threatened that whoever was found with a wounded man, they would kill the men, women, and children. I continued on and arrived home or rather in the field where my house had been, which the mob had torn down. There I found my wife and two children and a number of other women who had assembled.

                                           00:43:16             Now it’s the morning of the third. He’s been all night with this. The next morning I was taken further off the road that I might be concealed from the mob. I bled inwardly until my body was filled with blood and remained in this condition until five o’clock. I was then examined by a surgeon who was in the Black Hawk War and had seen great many men wounded, said he’d never seen one wounded as I had that lived. He pronounced me a dead man. David Whitmer, however, sent me word that I should live and not die, but I couldn’t see no possible chance to recover. After the surgeon had left me, brother Newel Knight came to me and sat down on the side of my bed. He laid his right hand on my head but never spoke. I felt the Spirit resting upon me at the crown of my head before his hand touched me and I knew immediately that I was going to be healed.

                                           00:44:11             It seemed to form like a ring under the skin and followed down my body. When the ring came to the wound, another ring formed around the first bullet hole, also the second and the third. Then a ring formed on each shoulder and on each hip and followed down to the end of my fingers and toes and left me. I immediately arose and discharged three quarts of blood with some pieces of my cloth that had been driven into my body by the bullets. From that time, not a drop of blood came from me and I never afterwards felt the slightest pain or inconvenience from my wounds except that I was weak for the loss of blood.

                                           00:44:50             Amazing story. In fact, the next day he rides eight miles and walks the last three to Independence. The next morning, November 5th, word has reached all of the settlements that the leaders had been put in jail and Lyman White leads about 150 to 200 men from those settlements to Independence including Philo Dibble to free them. They run into the militia that has been called out and Lyman learns from them that the leaders had already agreed to leave. So the militia gives them an offer to confiscate their weapons and then everybody can leave peaceably and we’ll give you your weapons on the other side. Instead, as soon as the militia has the weapons, they turn into a mob and for the next several days they start casting people out everywhere. Parley P. Pratt puts it this way. Companies of ruffians were ranging the county in every direction, bursting into homes without fear, frightening women and children and threatening to kill them if they did not flee.

                                           00:45:55             Immediately, women and children fled in every direction. One party of about 150 fled to the prairie where they wander for several days without food and shelter. Other parties fled to the Missouri River. During the dispersion of women and children, parties were hunting the men, firing on some, tying up others and whipping them and pursuing them for several miles. Lyman White wrote it this way. I saw 190 women and children driven 30 miles across the prairie with three decrepit men only in their company in the month of November. The ground thinly crusted with sleet and I could easily follow on their trail by the blood that flowed from their lacerated feet on the stubble of the burnt prairie. Parley P. Pratt again, the shore, meaning of the Missouri River, began to be lined on both sides of the ferry with men, women, and children, goods, wagons, boxes, provisions.

                                           00:46:53             While the ferry was constantly employed, hundreds of people were seen in every direction. Some in tents, some in the open air without fire, with the rain descending in torrents, husbands were inquiring for their wives, wives for their husbands, parents for children and children for parents. The scene was indescribable and I am sure would’ve melted the hearts of any people on earth except our blind oppressors and a blind and ignorant community. Awful. WW Phelps pens a letter to Joseph and he says, just these few words, I’ll say. The Savior said blessed are ye when ye are hated of all men for mine sake. I think we’ve come to that. We have been driven from our homes. I know not where we shall find another and perhaps we deserve it, but what about the pure in heart that are driven from house to house and from place to place with nothing to eat and nothing to wear.

                                           00:47:57             About 10 years ago, my wife, she’s a multiple cancer survivor, she was going through one of the worst ones, so she did chemo, radiation, all that stuff. They took out half her stomach, they botched the surgery. She ended up in the ICU in and out of consciousness. We almost lost her. After she got out, she had to keep going back into the hospital. She’d been in the hospital a week and then out for two weeks and then in for three weeks and out. It was just over and over when they finally figured it out and did another surgery and it was all over. It had been a year, over a year total. During this time I was teaching full-time seminary. I had three teenage sons that I was kind of the sole caregiver for. I was doing my doctrinal exams. I was stupid enough to coach two competitive soccer teams and I was running on adrenaline and Diet Coke. Okay that’s where my addiction to Diet Coke started.

                                           00:48:57             When it was all over and my wife was able to take back a lot of that responsibility. I had a mental breakdown, like moments from hospitalization. My mental health, from my trauma and everything. It spiked and it was really, really bad. The best way that I can explain it to someone who hasn’t experienced it is I used to be walking on the path to the tree of life and I would walk into mists of darkness, but I know the tree’s still there and then light shows up. After this experience, even despite counseling and getting on medication for a big chunk of the years after that, it was like walking in the mists of darkness and then every once in a while coming out into the light. It was really difficult. One of my sons in particular was struggling with being involved in the church.

                                           00:49:50             A couple years after this I was struggling to even feel the Spirit and my solution was, let’s go on a church history trip. Because if we just go to all these sites, they’ll totally want to follow Jesus. Part of it was the sacred grove and we got there right before closing. It’s July. We knew it was going to be crowded, but we got there. Literally, the sister missionaries were closing the gates because of problems we’d had and they were kind enough to let us not do the tour but just go straight to the sacred grove and they would wait. I had a plan. All of us would go to find our different spots. We’d kneel down and pray. We’d get this awesome testimony, including for me because I hadn’t felt anything for a long time. Then we’d get in the car and we’d share and my son would come back to church and the other ones would be faithful and it was perfect.

                                           00:50:42             I went in and I found my spot. The sun’s down already. It’s getting dark. I kneel down and I’m praying and I’m praying and I’m not feeling anything, which is something that’s been happening now for a long time, but I think to myself, this is how dumb I was. I thought to myself, I’m in the wrong spot, you know I need to go find a better spot. I went to another spot. I kneeled down and prayed. I’m praying. I’m praying. Nothing’s happening. All of a sudden I heard a twig snap behind me. Now, I don’t know if you guys have read the accounts of the First vision, but I jumped. I literally jumped off my knees and I spun around and it was my wife. It wasn’t the devil, it was Meredith. We kneeled down together. I explained to her what was happening.

                                           00:51:27             We kneeled down together and we started praying. While we’re praying, we can hear our three teenage sons yelling into the sacred grove. Yelling into the sacred grove. Hurry up, we’re hungry. You can hear them fighting. I’m thinking, this is not the plan. This was not the plan. We are trying to get out. It’s totally dark now. We’re trying to get out. Those of you that are listening that have been in the Sacred Grove, there’s like eight different paths and they have connections and we think we’re getting out, but we’re not getting out. We’re frustrated. Our boys are yelling. It’s starting to rain. Fireflies though start showing up. After a few wrong choices my wife says, let’s just choose the side that has the most fireflies on it. We did and we walked down and then we got to the next splitting of the trail and it was way obvious like they were all on one side of the trail. I had to take a picture of it to remember it, but we took that and it was actually a different direction than the noise of our son yelling at us. It seemed like not the right way to take, but then it curved around and went right out. We get in the car, there’s three teenage boys in the back punching each other. They’re hangry. I’m hangry. I’m depressed. Nothing’s turned out right. I thought my wife was the devil.

                                           00:52:50             Everything was wrong. We get to Rochester, we get some food, everybody goes to sleep and I’m laying in my bed looking up at heaven and I’m having a serious conversation in my head where I’m like, really? Like all the money I spent, the great plan I had. It turned out worse and everything’s worse than it was when before we started and I’m just talking with heaven for hours. For the first time I have a feeling like from heaven, it wasn’t words, but it felt something like this. I gave you what you needed, not what you wanted. Then I really went ballistic in my mind. Are you serious? This is what I needed to spend all this money to come all this way for my perfect plan to actually be worse. This is terrible. What are you talking about?

Hank Smith:                      00:53:41             Thanks for the help.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:53:42             Next day we get up, we go to Niagara Falls, we drive down to Kirtland. In my mind, I’m, that can’t have been the Spirit. There’s no way that that was the Spirit that I felt again. That night in Kirtland, you know we do all the stuff in Kirtland. We’re staying a night there. Then we’re going to the John Johnson farm and then going to go home. So that night I’m again in bed talking with heaven and I’m just like, what in the world do you mean by you gave me what I needed? I had that feeling again and again. I didn’t hear words, but the feeling was this and it was real and powerful and something I hadn’t felt for so long. It said, I gave you what you needed, which was this. It will be difficult and dark for you for a while, but I promise I will always send fireflies to show you which way to go and give you hope until the light comes back.

                                           00:54:43             Everything just melted. I realized he did give me what, I already had a testimony of the first vision. My son wasn’t going to get a testimony of the first vision because I spent money and forced him to kneel in the sacred grove, but I got what I needed. I was able to every night identify the different fireflies that God had sent into my life that day. From the smile from my dog to a good tasting watermelon to a hi from the neighbor. There were just all these fireflies that I could see that kept me afloat and telling me which way to go. Trials are difficult. God doesn’t answer them or help us with them in ways that are all the same for one another. Sometimes he does it in ways we would never even expect, but I know he does do it. Again, I would just plead with those that struggle with mental health that you can find help. There are fireflies available on both sides of the veil to help you through something that’s extremely difficult. I’m grateful to the Savior for that. I’m grateful for him giving me what I needed and not what I wanted.

Hank Smith:                      00:56:06             Thanks for that, Derek. If you go to section 101, verse 38, seek the face of the Lord always, in patience you will possess your souls. Sounds like what you were doing, seeking the Lord and he was saying, yeah, you’ll get it with quite a bit of patience.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:56:26             Patience, absolutely. Them being driven out of course, Joseph doesn’t know immediately. Letters and dispatchers are sent. When Joseph finds out, he finds out on the 25th of November, he doesn’t know what to think. How can this happen? What is going on? He writes a letter on the 10th back to the saints saying, I don’t understand what’s happening to you. The Lord is keeping hid from me why this is happening. When will Zion be redeemed? What will that redemption look like and why has God suffered this? But the only answer I get, he says, is be still and know that I am God. A couple of days later, on December 16th and 17th, William Ames comes in with Martin Harris to Joseph Smith’s house and there Oliver Cowdery and Joseph Smith are sitting having breakfast and there’s a sheet of paper on the table. Oliver says, good morning brethren. We’ve just received news from heaven. Over that night and in the morning they had dictated out a revelation that answered some of the questions that they had and that is section 101.

Hank Smith:                      00:57:48             Oh, wow.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:57:51             I like that. Breaking news.

Hank Smith:                      00:57:53             Hey.

John Bytheway:               00:57:54             This just in.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:57:56             Yeah, right, and notice how the Lord starts it off. I say unto you concerning your brethren who have been afflicted and persecuted and cast from the land of their inheritance, I the Lord have suffered, again didn’t cause, suffered or allowed this affliction to come upon them wherewith they have been afflicted in consequence of their transgressions. In other words, they didn’t keep the covenants that they made to be on the land. The Lord allowed others to exercise their agency. Yet though verse three, yet I will own them. Own them. You’re covenant. You belong to me, and they shall be mine in that day when I shall come to make up my jewels. Then he frames it as we’ve been talking about earlier, that they must needs be chastened and tried even as Abraham, for all who will not endure chastening but deny me, cannot be sanctified. There’s that sanctified again.

Hank Smith:                      00:59:04             In these opening verses, I hear the Lord who is full of love and also full of expectations. I want you to become something. I will remember mercy, I am a merciful person. He says in verse 13, those who have been scattered will be gathered. Those who are mourning will be comforted. Those who have given their lives for my name shall be crowned, be still and know that I am God. I don’t know, maybe there’s a dual. You gotta have both sides of him. This, I love you. I am with you and I’m going to make something of you.

John Bytheway:               00:59:45             Because I love you. Yeah.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       00:59:48             Yeah. I love that goes along with that in verse nine. Notwithstanding their sins, my bowels are filled with compassion towards them. I will not utterly cast them off and in the day of wrath I will remember mercy. I just, that’s just, again speaks to the character of who Christ is.

Hank Smith:                      01:00:05             Right. We’re learning about who he is.

John Bytheway:               01:00:09             So often we want everything to make sense, because a lot of things in the plan of salvation do make sense, but sometimes we want everything to make sense. Because of that the unmet expectations and why this, why now, why not this? When things don’t make sense it shakes us up a little bit and I’ve always loved these verses. I have a maybe a different application for them than specifically what the saints are going through at this time period. Verse 32 starts out with, listen, one day I’m going to tell you everything. Yea verily, I say to you, in that day, that day is often millennial. When the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things. When we see the word all Hank, what do we love to say?

Hank Smith:                      01:01:01             That’s a very high percentage word.

John Bytheway:               01:01:02             That’s a high percentage of things. I’m going to reveal all things. One of the things that’s fun about this is my dad was a geologist and a convert and we used to talk about the age of the earth and the creation and how does all this work and how do we reconcile this with that? Here’s the Lord saying, look at the list that follows. Verse 33 things which have passed. What can we put under that heading? History, astronomy, anthropology, biology. We can put a whole lot of -ologies underneath that. Things which have passed and look at this, hidden things which no man knew. Imagine the Lord unfolding things and some of our best brightest scientists going, oh, I didn’t know that. How did I? I never even saw that. Hidden things which no man knew. Things of the earth by which it was made. Oh, thank you dad. Here’s what we can talk about and the purpose and the end thereof, and he just keeps going. Things most precious, things that are above, talk about the pen of heaven, things that are beneath, things that are in the earth and upon the earth and in heaven. Then if I skip the current context and go to 36 wherefore fear not even unto death, for in this world, your joy is not full. We could maybe say your knowledge too, but in me your joy is full. Those verses give me the one day I’m going to tell you everything.

Hank Smith:                      01:02:31             I remember when my wife’s mother died. She was just 65 and it just didn’t make sense. She’s just the perfect grandmother. Here she is gone. I look forward to that day I think, when my wife gets to ask the Lord, tell me what happened and he explains it.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       01:02:51             Yeah. With verse 36, in this world, your joy is not full, but in me your joy is full. It made me think of President Nelson’s 2016 talk about joy and suffering. He said, this life is filled with detours and dead ends, trials and challenges of every kind. Each of us likely had times when distress, anguish and despair almost consumed us. Yet we are here to have joy. Yes, the answer is a resounding yes, but how is that possible and what must we do to claim the joy that heavenly father has in store for you? And then he talks about an experience Eliza Snow recorded after the extermination order where they’re all outside. It’s freezing cold. There’s 80 of them stuck in this little building that they’ve used part of the wood on to burn, to stay warm. They’re roasting frozen potatoes. She writes this.

                                           01:03:49             She had a horrific experience as well in Farr West. She writes, that was a very merry night. None but saints can be happy under every circumstance. President Nelson says, that’s it. Saints can be happy under every circumstance. We can feel joy even while having a bad day, a bad week, or even a bad year. My brothers and sisters, the joy we feel has little to do with the circumstances of our lives and everything to do with the focus of our lives. When the focus of our lives is on God’s plan of salvation and Jesus Christ and his gospel, we can feel joy regardless of what is happening or not happening in our lives. Joy comes from and because of him, he is the source of all joy. And I love this. Joy is powerful and focusing on joy brings God’s power into our lives. As in all things, Jesus Christ is our ultimate exemplar quote, who for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross end quote.

                                           01:05:00             Think of that. In order for him to endure the most excruciating experience ever endured on earth, our Savior focused on joy and what was the joy that was set before him? Surely it included the joy of cleansing, healing, and strengthening us. The joy of paying for the sins of all who would repent. The joy of making it possible for you and for me to return home clean and worthy, to live with our heavenly parents and families. What we were talking about with Sister Bennion. That what makes God God is the ability to experience joy and suffering and to make of suffering experience that leads to the salvation of souls. It’s just, I love it.

Hank Smith:                      01:05:47             Yeah. One thing that gives me hope in suffering is that the Lord is making something of you and you will like the person you become. If you keep choosing him, you’ll be happy with the person you become. Listen to this from Edward Partridge. Wouldn’t you love to be able to say this and mean it? He says, I have torn my affections from this world’s goods. I am willing to spend and be spent in the cause of my Master. That’s the type of person you become when you allow the Lord to chasten and purify you. Derek, this has been a fantastic day and it is a difficult doctrine. It’s a difficult but crucial doctrine for everyone, every one of us, to learn how the Lord is going to shape us and purify us. Finish us out here. What happens next?

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       01:06:50             Well, now that they’ve been driven out, they’re looking for help from the governor. They’re writing the President. In fact, Sidney Gilbert’s the one that writes the letter to President Jackson asking for help, which of course is denied in Clay County, which is on the other side of the Missouri River. That’s where most of the saints gather. Sidney Gilbert manages to buy a farm, build a home, start a store. The home is at Rush Creek and our friend, Philo Dibble is also there. All three of our stories have now wrapped together and they’re all there at the farm of Sidney Gilbert. What happens? The cholera breaks out 20 total died but five die in Sidney Gilbert’s home. James Rollins, remember the nephew that’s living with them? He wrote, there were five who died at our house, namely William Whedon, a brother Judd, Jesse Smith, the cousin of Joseph, Sidney Gilbert and Phoebe Murdock. Sidney was rolled in a quilt and buried with the others. He dies on the 29th.

                                           01:08:10             John Murdock, his journal. The camp was disbanded by order of brother Joseph. I went to the Colesville brethren, the cholera raging among them. I had the symptoms of it and while it was a rod of God to chastise these, it was also their protection from their enemies for the mob dared not come while the cholera was in the camp. Then he goes to the 30th. Word came to me that my daughter, Phoebe, was sick of the cholera. Brother SA Gilbert, with whom she lived, was already dead. I had seen all my children in good health, but the destroyer commenced his work. I went and took care of her until Sunday morning at the break of day, July 6th, her little spirit leaving the body being six years, three months, and 27 days old. Brothers Henry J. Rollins and Reed Peck helped me to bury her. If you’re standing there talking to Elizabeth about her husband, if you’re standing there talking to John Murdock about his daughter, this is the end.

                                           01:09:23             Yet it’s not the end because Christ has risen. There is nothing that can ever go permanently wrong. The miracle has already happened. It’s just in the future, whether that be being able to raise John Murdock and his wife resurrected to be able to raise little Phoebe in the millennium. Whether it be Elizabeth being able to have children of her own. All losses as Joseph Smith taught, will be made up to us in the resurrection, provided we continue faithful by the visions of the Almighty I’ve seen it. John I think one of the reasons those millennial verses are thrown in the middle of all of this, seemingly out of nowhere is an invitation from the Lord. Look, he’s saying everything gets solved in the millennium. Everything gets answered. All blessings are restored and then some. Really, the Lord is inviting us, as Paul says in our baptism, to die to ourselves and to raise and be born into new life.

                                           01:10:35             While we can’t have the physical resurrection today, we can already begin to enjoy the spiritual benefits of the resurrection. If we choose to walk, as Paul says, in newness of life, to live a millennial life, to live a Zion life where he can pour blessings of joy, blessings of knowledge into the experience of struggle and suffering. I had the opportunity to help do a BYU travel, church history travel study this spring. I took them to Rush Creek. We just pulled into a farmer’s 200 yard dirt road with his barndominium further down. We pulled in because it was a road where you can’t pull off to the side. There’s ditches on both sides. We pulled in and I was explaining the story, explaining what had happened here. All the difficulty, all of that. The gentleman gets out of his house and gets on his four-wheeler and starts speeding down to us.

                                           01:11:40             I’m like, oh, well I’m going to give him a real Missouri experience. I’m like gathering together. We’re in six cars. I’m like, okay everybody, we start getting into our cars, and he starts waving us down and I’m thinking, oh boy. You know, here we go. He was telling us to stop. He wanted to talk to us. He had recently purchased from his friend that area, and he’s a latter-day saint, his friend had purchased a larger 100 acre area. That area had been in terrible condition for a long time, had been a hangout for teenagers to drink and do drugs. This man had redeemed it. This gentleman that we were talking to who bought the portion that we were on, had redeemed it. You remember the Lord told Sidney Gilbert to be planted here. In a very real sense, he was planted there.

                                           01:12:39             This gentleman kindly took us back to the spot that was discovered several years ago where after a flash flood three corpses were, three remains were unearthed from the flood. An investigation was done by the state of Missouri. The realization was that the only people this could be, based on carbon dating and the description of location was where the cholera victims were buried. Those three remains were taken into Independence to a cemetery in there and buried there. The City of Independence put up a really beautiful monument. You can go there and and see the monument. They don’t know which of the three it is, but he took us back to the site where Sidney is buried, where Phoebe Murdock is buried, and we stood on that site, all 25, 26 of us, whatever, and we sang to him. I felt the power of these people. I just want to thank Sidney Gilbert.

                                           01:13:45             I want to thank Elizabeth Gilbert. I want to thank John and Julia Murdock and Philo Dibble. I want to thank all of these saints who have taught me what is the meaning of sacrifice. What is the meaning of being devoted to Zion? What is the meaning of being able to find joy in suffering and through experience become more like the Savior. The older I get, the more things I learn, the fewer things I know are absolutely true as assumptions and other things get knocked down, but the things that I know I know, and one of them is that Jesus is the Christ and that because he is risen, that all things will be made up to us on the other side. This too will give us experience. The experience is to learn to become like him.

Hank Smith:                      01:14:36             The title of the lesson today was Be Still and Know That I Am God, and I feel like we’ve had that experience. Derek, as you’ve brought the sections to life by telling us about these people, real people in real situations with real suffering. It’s inspiring.

John Bytheway:               01:14:54             Derek, thank you for being so honest and open and vulnerable about your own experience. There’s a lot of people out there going, that brother knows where I’ve been and he can do it. I can do it by relying on the Savior the way he did. Thank you for that.

Hank Smith:                      01:15:13             Thank you, Derek. We loved having you back. It’s a joy. Really was.

Dr. Derek Sainsbury:       01:15:18             Thank you for having me.

Hank Smith:                      01:15:20             With that we want to thank Dr. Derek Sainsbury for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. Dr. Sainsbury Derek was right. We need to study Zion’s camp that’s coming up next week on followHIM. Thank you for joining us on today’s episode. Do you or someone you know speaks Spanish, Portuguese, or French? You can now watch and listen to our podcast in those languages. Links are in the description below. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website. Followhim.co. That’s followhim.co Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwika, Iride Gonzalez, and Annabelle Sorensen.