John Bytheway:  00:00:00  Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Follow Him. Today we’re looking at one of the Voices of the Restoration lessons. There’s what Hank, about 12 of those?

Hank Smith:  00:00:10  There’s 12 of them. This is number four.

John Bytheway:  00:00:13  This is number four about Emma Smith. We have Dr. Gerrit Dirkmaat with us again, one of our faves. So, thanks for joining us again today, Dr. Geritt. We’re so glad to have you.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:00:26  Thanks for having me back.

John Bytheway:  00:00:27  I like that we’re doing this little mini biographies on not just the events, but the individual people.

Hank Smith:  00:00:34  The Come Follow Me manual-the printed version. I don’t think has these Voices of the Restoration. It’s the online version that has these episodes that we’re doing with Geritt. If you went to our website and in the upper right hand side you clicked on show notes, you would see Book of Mormon, New Testament, Old Testament, and then you could go down to the bottom and you would click on Voices of the Restoration. And there you have all of the episodes we’ve done with Geritt so far.

John Bytheway:  00:00:58  Hank, as we start talking about these different voices involved in the Restoration, what are you looking forward to today?

Hank Smith:  00:01:05  I love having Geritt with us and I was thinking about this as we were preparing for this interview. I thought, why do I like this so much? And one is, of course, Geritt. He is just a delightful teacher. When I was a junior in high school, I read the Work and the Glory. I was enthralled. I read the first six volumes, which is all that was out then in like two months. I just loved it. As I continued to read history, I didn’t want historical fiction so much as I wanted history. I remember being on a drive with my brother-in-law, Derek Booth, he’s a bishop now out in Castle Rock. We listened to David McCullough. The book was John Adams. I was even more enthralled When you get a great historian that brings the past to life. There’s just something about it. Now, John, we do need to say that Geritt is kind enough to come visit us. Uh, he’s very busy. He has his own podcast. It’s called Standard of Truth, and we hope all of our Follow Him listeners will go and follow Geritt’s show. He and his colleague, Dr. Richard LeDuc, they have so much fun on that podcast. So please everyone go take a look at Standard of Truth.

John Bytheway:   00:02:20  Looking at the digital Voices of the Restoration lesson. The first paragraph there about Emma Hale Smith says this: The Lord’s words to Emma Smith recorded in Doctrine and Covenants 25, reveal how he felt about her and her contributions she could make to his work. But what was Emma like? What do we know about her personality, her relationships, her strengths? One way to get to know this elect lady is to read the words of people who knew her personally. On the digital manual. There there’s three or four quotations from people who knew her personally and one of them guys, I had never read this before. Joseph Smith Jr., her husband. It says, here’s the quotation. Tell me if you’ve seen this before. I know Geritt has. “With what unspeakable delight, and what transports of joy swelled my bosom, when I took by the hand, on that night, my beloved Emma—she that was my wife, even the wife of my youth; and the choice of my heart. Many were the re-vibrations of my mind when I contemplated for a moment the many scenes we had been called to pass through. The fatigues, and the toils, the sorrows, and sufferings, and the joys and consolations from time to time had strewed our paths and crowned our board.”

   00:03:48  “Oh! what a co-mingling of thought filled my mind for the moment. Again, she is here, even in the seventh trouble, undaunted, firm, and unwavering, unchangeable, affectionate Emma.” Hank, had you heard that one before?

Hank Smith:  00:03:50  I’ve heard pieces of it, but never the full quote.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:03:50  It’s this exaltation. It’s actually part of this blessing that Joseph gives to several people at this time of real trial for him in 1842. Some people leave the church and they can’t leave it alone. Well, Missouri, we leave it, but Missouri can’t leave us alone. The Latter-day Saints being exterminated out of Missouri is a constant embarrassment for the state of Missouri. To the point where even generally antagonistic news media would comment on just how barbaric the treatment of Latter-day Saints in Missouri was. You actually have people like Eber Howe, who is the person who published the first anti-Mormon book in American history, Mormonism Unveiled. He is not a friend of the saints. In fact, he is the cause, at least the beginning cause, of the saints being driven out of Ohio. Even he is going to comment something to the effect of, well, they shouldn’t be getting murdered.

   00:05:01  Drive them out, but you shouldn’t kill them. In 1842, a whole new specter raises its ugly head and that is–there’s a big time apostasy inside of Nauvoo surrounding a member of the First Presidency, John C. Bennett, who has undertaken to commit various adulteries and lied about them being sanctioned by Joseph. When it’s found out, he’s immediately ex-communicated and he actually makes this public confession. I’m sorry I did this. It’s a big deal. He leaves Nauvoo. As soon as he leaves Nauvoo, he immediately begins to attack the church. And one of his primary attacks is that just recently in Missouri, former Governor of Missouri, Lilburn Boggs, he has been shot by an unknown assassin assailant. He doesn’t die, but he’s wounded pretty severely and without any evidence whatsoever. He immediately says, this must have been Porter Rockwell who did this, and it must have been Joseph Smith who ordered him to do it.

   00:06:14  Missouri issues arrest warrants for attempted murder for Porter Rockwell and for Joseph Smith as an accessory. What happens just before this is some officers show up with these warrants and they try to arrest Porter Rockwell and Joseph. They’re able to delay the arrest through the Nauvoo courts for a day. But Joseph really believes if he’s taken back to Missouri, they’re going to kill him. And he believes that for good reason, he believes it because all of the problems with the saints demanding their property back, they go away if you can convict Joseph Smith for attempted murder. It kind of ends that. So, Joseph flees. He actually flees across the river he goes to, to Montrose, to Iowa. He hopes that he can be safe in Iowa only to find out that the governor of Iowa also issues arrest warrants for Joseph on the basis of these charges. Joseph doesn’t know what’s going to happen next.

   00:07:21  He knows if these Missourians get him, he is going to die and he can’t go back to Nauvoo. He actually arranges to meet Emma and several of the brethren on an island in the middle of the Mississippi River. He’s gone into hiding. He’s in Montrose. They now hear that the Iowa Governor’s gonna try to arrest him as well. You don’t see these islands anymore because they damned up the Mississippi River. If you ever go to Nauvoo, it just looks like one giant lake. It’s like, oh, there’s no islands. But there used to be islands in the channel. In the middle, Emma rose out with her group to this island in the middle, and Joseph later comes and rose out. And this exultation about Emma, is Joseph talking about what it was like to see her when he wasn’t sure he was ever going to see her again. Because if those officers took him, he wasn’t going to see her again.

   00:08:26  In fact, some of the people say to Joseph, you’re not safe in Illinois. You’re not safe in Iowa. You’re not safe anywhere. At the time, the Latter-day Saints have a lumber cutting operation going on up in Wisconsin. There’s a talk of going to the pine country and that’s what they call this Wisconsin. Where they’re cutting wood for the temple and floating it down the river. Surrounding this very concept. And in fact, Joseph, he writes to Emma talking about just how difficult all of this has been. My dear Emma, this is August 16th, 1842. I embrace this opportunity to express to you some of my feelings this morning. First of all, I take the liberty to tender you my sincere thanks for the two interesting and consoling visits you have made to me during my almost exiled situation. Tongue cannot express the gratitude of my heart for the warm and true hearted friendship that you have manifested in these things to towards me. The time has passed away since you left me very agreeably. Thus far my mind being perfectly reconciled to my fate, let it be what it may. I have been kept from melancholy and the dumps. I don’t, that’s how he writes it. You can kind of get an idea of what that feels like.

John Bytheway:  00:09:52  Down in the dumps. Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:09:54  Yes. I’ve been kept from melancholy in the dumps by the kindheartedness of Brother Darby and his interesting chitchat from time to time, which is called to my mind for more of the strong contemplations of things and subjects that would’ve prayed more earnestly upon my feelings. And he goes on to talk about several things, but one of the things that he talks about is that someone is suggesting that he run away to the pine country in Wisconsin. To just not even go back to Nauvoo. If he goes back to Nauvoo, they’re gonna take him. They’re gonna, they’re gonna take him to Missouri. Joseph is well aware what a fair trial in Missouri looks like. You can’t make air quotes for those of you only listening to this. You can’t make air quotes big enough for the term fair trial. As Hiram Smith explained in one of his affidavits, when they were arraigned in Missouri, participants of the Hans Mill Massacre were the jury deciding whether or not to keep them.

   00:10:58  And the same people that were serving on the jury that had participated in the murders were literally the same people guarding them at night. They went to court in the morning, their guards got into the jury box. All of these people are murderers. And then they went back. Joseph’s well aware, fair trial, and Missouri don’t equal. And were he to go back. He’s going to be executed. There is terror both for Emma and for Joseph that this might really be the end. This is what Joseph says. Brother Miller again suggested to me the propriety of my accompanying him to the pine woods. That’s to Wisconsin. And then he should return and bring you and the children. My mind will eternally revolt at every suggestion of that kind. More, especially since the dream and vision that was manifested to me on last night. My safety is with you if you want to have it so.

   00:12:06  Anything more or less than this cometh of evil. My feelings and counsel I think ought to be abided. If I go to the pine country, you shall go along with me and the children. And if you and the children go not with me, I don’t go. You can tell the bond that Joseph and Emma have. Where Joseph is saying, I am well aware that if they catch me, they will kill me. I will not leave. If I don’t leave with Emma, I won’t do it. It is something that kind of gives you an insight into how desperately they love one another by 1842. This is a terrible example. It’s very much how I feel about my own wife, Angie. I don’t want to ever go literally anywhere without her. She’s what happiness to me is. In some ways I identify with Joseph and Emma in that regard. The idea of never seeing Emma again to Joseph is actually worse than death. He would rather, Hey, if I’m going to exile, I’ll go, but I’m not going if Emma doesn’t go.If she’s not with me, I won’t do it. That whole experience where that quote comes from is super powerful when you understand just how dire the circumstances are at the time.

John Bytheway:  00:13:35  And these letters are written in 1841, 1842.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:13:39  This is an 1842 letter. Yep. Mm-hmm.

John Bytheway:  00:13:41  Yeah. One of the statements of Emma Smith that we repeat a lot is: Joseph couldn’t write a well worded letter or right? Yeah. At the time, that’s during the translation of the Book of Mormon when just words were pouring forth line after line after line. But it sounds like his writing improves. Would you say that?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:14:02  Well, so one of the things that will always help you look better, I mean I know this by being a guest on the Follow Him podcast- that you have Lisa and David that make you look better. Most of what I say, I sound like an idiot. Lisa and David try to figure out a way to make me sound better than I am. Joseph, by this point in his life, is regularly employing a scribe in these letters. It’s not Joseph writing it, it’s actually Joseph dictating it. And so you kinda wonder how much is the scribe kinda like, well let’s, let’s make the grammar equal out here, and uh. It is true that Joseph undertakes a concerted effort to educate himself. That he is really trying to make himself more educated. And so we do have some letters that are written in his own handwriting to Emma, but whenever he is employing a scribe, it does a lot better.

Hank Smith:  00:15:02  Geritt, he has his own little chat GPT, right? That’s gonna..

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:15:06  He does

John Bytheway:  00:15:07  His Grammarly..

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:15:07  He plugs it into Willard Richards and it’s gonna come out sounding a little bit better. The only problem is if you’re the historian reading the letter written by Willard Richards, you wanna punch Willard Richards right in the mouth ’cause he has the worst handwriting you have ever read. I mean at times it’s fine, but it, most of the time you’re like, what is that? It’s just like one letter and a squiggle and you’re like, can I buy a vow Willard? Like what? What is that? Is that a seven? Why would you write a number seven in the middle of your word? It doesn’t even make sense. Most of the time when you’re reading something on the Joseph Smith papers and it says illegible, it’s ’cause Willard Richards wrote it and we’re like, I I, we got no idea we got. We have no idea what that is. I love Willard Richards. We have so much of the history that we have because of Willard Richards and also when I meet him in the next life, I’m gonna say, I need you to just slow down writing just yeah, just this much.

John Bytheway:  00:16:06  Realize that what you’re writing, people are gonna have to read this one day,

Hank Smith:  00:16:10  Right? Yeah. So Geritt, I like that introduction with that quote. Can we go backwards now to Emma’s early life?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:16:19  Yeah. I think one of the most essential aspects of the restoration that we don’t give Emma enough credit for is her influence on young Joseph Smith. Now it’s easy to think of Joseph Smith as the Nauvoo prophet, the person who’s, he’s all in, and if the Missourians want to come take and kill him, okay, fine, whatever. I’ll do whatever God wants me to do. And we kind of lose the Joseph who’s brand new, the Joseph, who is just starting to try to figure out how to become something different. A lot of us have people that we can think of in our lives–it might be a family member, it’s often a parent, but outside of our own immediate family–someone who shaped who we are at a formative time in our life. I remember leaders that I have that were young men’s leaders who changed who I was as a person.

   00:17:28  I don’t have the ability to be grateful enough to those men. And they were just dads, you know, probably hating every second of their calling. Probably like the bishop extended the calling to ’em and they were like, I gotta deal with the Dirkmaat kids? This is ridiculous. I mean just, they probably thought, well, these kids aren’t listening. And yet they had such a profound impact on my life that when I look back at my teenage life, I want to grab a hold of them and hug them and say, thank you so much for caring about someone that you didn’t need to care about in order to change their life. Joseph has his first vision. He’s still a day laborer, so things are going kind of rough for him and feels like he’s still a sinner. He has the visit with Angel Moroni. Angel Moroni is, is gonna repeatedly tell him, you have got to eliminate this desire for worldly wealth, which is really hard for Joseph because his family is so desperately poor. Even more so than today. In 19th century America, socially, the responsibility of a teenage to early 20-year-old son, his responsibility was to the financial independence of his father’s family.

   00:19:01  That’s what his society would’ve taught him. That’s what he would’ve learned in church. Nothing matters more than getting your family financially solvent. Moroni tells him, look, Satan is going to try to tempt you in consequence of the indigent circumstances of your father’s family, to take the plates. Even with that angelic injunction, Joseph sees the plates and apparently the first thought on his mind is, we’re rich. Joseph tells us this in his 1832 history, for I sought to obtain the plates that I might obtain riches is what he says. So he’s not purified himself yet. Goes back the next year. So if you think about this for a minute, slow down, you know, let’s, let’s non Willard Richards, this .

   00:19:51  He has an entire year of knowing that God and Jesus exist, that an angel has appeared to him three times in one night, once the next day. Then once again when he couldn’t get the plates. Five times in like a 12 hour period, an angel has appeared to him and he has an entire year to try to get his mind right so that he can actually get the plates. He goes back to the hill and he still can’t get the plates-in 1824. Goes back to the hill in 1825 and he still can’t get the plates. And he goes back to the hill in 1826 and he still can’t get the plates. Each year meeting with an angel. Each year trying to get himself right. Finally, in 1827, Joseph is able to get the plates. What changes between 1823, 1824, 1825, 1826, and 1827. Well, it’s in January in 1827, Joseph marries, Emma and Emma seems to have this stabilizing effect on Joseph.

   00:21:14  If you were to describe Joseph Smith’s personality, it is an emotional personality. He loves to be around other people. When he does things, he goes whole hog into them. He’s emotional, he’s excited, he loves other people and he’s kind of a people pleaser. Because he loves other people, he wants other people to be happy. Which puts him in some difficult situations because sometimes, like Martin Harris saying, Hey, I’d love some pages, you need to be able to say no you can’t. And Joseph really, really struggled, I think with that. Emma helped ground Joseph. Joseph first meets Emma when he’s been hired by Josiah Stoll to go down and dig for an old abandoned Spanish silver mine in Pennsylvania and New York. The problem with finding an abandoned Spanish silver mine in Pennsylvania, is first the Spanish we’re never in Pennsylvania. One of the biggest problems with finding an abandoned Spanish silver mine in Pennsylvania will always be whether there were Spanish in Pennsylvania.

   00:22:32  The second problem, of course, is whether or not there was a silver mine, but still really believes it. He’s heard that Joseph has special abilities that he might be able to help them find it, and he’s willing to pay Joseph essentially twice the average worker’s wage. Well, okay. Joseph is already digging wells and not is labor as much as he can to help his family. The offer to work for twice the wages, it’s an offer he can’t refuse. So he goes down and eventually it becomes clear that this is a futile exercise. They don’t find the treasure. Joseph finds his treasure. He, uh, boards with the Isaac Hale family there in Harmony and meets Emma for the first time. Now we don’t actually really know what their early relationship is like. I mean, you watch it in every movie that’s put out or in every book that’s written that you know Joseph and Emma and we talk about their love story.

   00:23:36  I mean, frankly, 19th century courting was incredibly different than anything we understand today as dating. It actually is not a terribly helpful thing to try to put it into our terms. In the 19th century, it was considered a gigantic social faux pas for a woman to marry outside of her father’s consent. Women in the early 19th century were so much, technically, the legal property of their father that if a woman went to go work outside of the home, the wages she made were literally the property of her father until she was like 26 years old. It’s a society in which it’s incredibly misogynistic, obviously, male dominated. And women have very few rights. Women in early 19th century America, they don’t have the right to vote. They don’t have the right to most professions. We always think of things like, oh, you know, but women were school teachers and nurses, not in 1820 they weren’t.

   00:24:45  You can find a few exceptions, but there’s a reason why Oliver Cowdery is a school teacher. It’s not until the later 19th century that women are allowed to fill even those roles. They’re not allowed to vote. They’re not allowed to own property independent of their husband. In fact, legally, if a married woman buys a piece of property in her name, it’s the same thing as it’s her husband’s property. She literally can’t own property outside of her husband. It is a very gender bias society that Emma is growing up in. Now, it’s what the world is to her. So, I mean, it’s easy for us to look back on and be like, my, my goodness. She may not have been saying my my goodness, because it’s literally what the world was. But defying your parents was considered one of the greatest social breaches that could exist. Especially when it came to marriage, because there were two things that society would’ve required from Emma, mentally in her getting married.

   00:25:53  The first is she needed to marry someone of equal or better station. First of all, you need to marry up, okay? You need to marry someone who has more money than you do because that will help your family and help your prestige well. So you need to do that. If you fail at that, if you can’t marry someone better than you, than you at the very least have to marry someone on par with you. You can’t sully the family name by marrying someone who’s not. So the societal pressure would’ve already been, you don’t even court men who are beneath your station, more or less. Frankly, you would have a hard time finding men in New York and Pennsylvania that were at a lower social class than Joseph Smith . I know you, you would have to go to literal slaves and indentured servants to have someone at a lower social class.

   00:26:54  Why? Well, what gives you social class? You own property? Does Joseph own property? No. That you come from a family that owns property, that has substantial holdings. Does Joseph’s family, I mean, they kind of own property, they lose it actually. They’re not able to make the payments on ’em and it gets taken away from them. So they are from the lowest rung of American society in that regard. In early 19th century America, the societal belief was you needed to be competent as a farmer. Meaning competency was, that you owned enough land that you and your family did not have to work outside of your own farm in order to make ends meet. It was a social ideal. The very fact that Joseph and Hiram and Alvin before he dies have to hire out their labor, not just once or twice, but consistently in order for the family to make ends meet. places the Smith family on the lowest rung of financial society.

   00:27:58  They don’t own their own land outright. They have to work outside of the land that they’re working just to even make ends meet. Joseph is a hundreds of miles away from home digging, looking for a Spanish silver mine as a day laborer. He is literally the lowest class of person in New York or Pennsylvania at the time. And Emma’s family, they’re not rich. You’re not gonna say that, you know, they’re the Rockefellers, but they are one of the most prominent families in the Harmony area. Isaac Hale has worked very hard to make enough money to the point where they build a pretty substantial house, a kind of a mini mansion. A small mansion house that’s well adorned. That when Lucy Smith comes down and sees that, she’s like, these guys are doing okay. She can see the wealth.

   00:28:55  I mean it’s, well, it’s very visible to her. And so you have Emma coming from this family that is first of all a pretty religious family. I mean, they are pretty involved in their local Methodist church. A pretty well off family. She meets one of the day laborers that is boarding at her dad’s house. Lucy says Joseph began to turn his attentions to her. Isaac Hale couldn’t be more outraged. Joseph is none of the things that he wants for his daughter, to get married. He’s not right religiously, because he’s claiming he is got this gold Bible and whatnot. He has no property. He has no money. His family has no station. Why in the world would I allow my daughter to marry him? Now they seem to have a fine relationship getting along with one another, but whether or not your son-in-law or future son-in-law is nice is legitimately like number item 109 on your list of things in son-in-law in early 19th century.

   00:30:06  Joseph does do the respectable thing. He asked Isaac Hale, can I marry your daughter? And Isaac Hale tells him straight up, I refused and gave him my reasons for so doing. He says in his later affidavit. And what were they that I don’t know you, you’re some kind of stranger who came down here as some kind of day laborer. And also he says, you were employed in something that I can’t agree with. But what he means is you have no property, you’re beneath the station, you can’t do it. Here we get the first demonstration of who Emma Smith is as a person. By all accounts, Emma loves her family and loves her parents. Her dad says, you can’t marry Joseph Smith. And Emma leaves to go meet Joseph. We don’t know how she knows that Joseph is there, but Joseph is in nearby in New York where Josiah Stole lives up in the the Colesville, Ninevah area.

   00:31:13  She goes up to meet Joseph. Joseph says, will you marry me? Again, we want to create this as as a 21st century, you know, love story. I don’t know what Emma’s feelings were for Joseph at the time. She clearly was interested in him enough that she went to go see him. But she says, I had no intentions of marrying when I left home. And when she talks about it, she said, Joseph asked me to marry him and preferring him to any other man that I knew. I accept it. Now that sounds like she’s telling a sacrament meeting joke. Like if I get up and I start my talking sacrament meeting and I’m like, well, I asked Angie to marry me and she didn’t have any other better offers. So she said yes. Right? It sounds like I’m telling a bad joke in sacrament meeting, which I probably am either way , but I think probably more likely she’s being very literal here.

   00:32:08  She’s well aware that the people in Harmony that her dad expects her to be courting and dating. She’s well aware of the people that are on the station that she’s supposed to be on. I don’t know that she’s desperately in love with Joseph Smith. The way we think of it today, for us today, like we go to Applebee’s twice and we get engaged. I mean, we think, you know, oh, I’m in love now. And, and so , anyone who’s actually been married pales in comparison to how you feel about your wife after 20 years of marriage. In a good marriage. In my marriage, look, I loved Angie. I married for love. I, you know, there’s no sense and sensibility for me. I was, I was in love with Angie and, and I married her and she was above my station. So it worked out great. If I were to go back to things that I wrote and thought about why I loved her, then they are frankly embarrassing to me because how I feel about her now is I legitimately cannot perceive of happiness outside of being with Angie.

   00:33:20  It’s terrifying to me the idea of not having her because it’s how I experience happiness. In the 19th century, people understood this much more. In the 19th century, the most important thing about marriage was that you’re marrying someone that had the same religion, that had the same values because they understood that real love isn’t because you went to a a square dance twice. Real love is actually what’s built as a consequence of marriage, not the catalyst for marriage. So when she says that, preferring him to any other man that I knew, I accepted, she’s not telling a joke. She’s saying I didn’t have a lot of other better prospects and I liked Joseph and he was nice, and so I married him. And that’s how it goes.

John Bytheway:  00:34:16  You know, I would love to know what Emma had heard about Joseph’s visions. I’m trying to imagine that conversation in the wagon. Uh, Emma, let me tell you some things that have happened to me.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:34:29  It does make you wonder, at what point did Joseph say, Hey, so an angel’s been visiting me. Now he’s told me God has a work for me to do. Now don’t worry, I’ve been terrible at it. I haven’t yet got the plates. It’s actually kinda the worst of both worlds. Joseph’s like, I have a representative of God continually meeting with me and talking to me, and also I am failing at what the angel wants me to do.I mean, so will you marry me ? Yeah, exactly. Look what I could bring into the, uh, I can bring into the marriage, you know, the disfavor of God. I wish we did know. I wish that part of the interviews we had was when she decided to let go and let God when it came to Joseph Smith saying, I had plates. And I, I think it does speak to how she views Joseph Smith’s character. That whether it’s before they’re married or or after, she perceives Joseph as being fundamentally honest and innocent.

   00:35:47  If Joseph says, I saw an angel and I saw plates, I wasn’t able to get them. ’cause my mind’s not right yet. That when Joseph says that she believes it, and it’s actually a great testament to Joseph’s early character. That everything in the world tells Emma, you should not believe Joseph, you should not be with Joseph. You should not marry Joseph. Your father says, don’t marry Joseph. Emma says, I’m going to believe and I’m going to marry Joseph. Eloping with someone’s daughter against their will is not a way to win friends and influence people, when it comes to your father-in-law. They get married in New York and they don’t even go back to Harmony.

   00:36:34  So think about, you know, Isaac and Elizabeth Hale. They not only weren’t there for the wedding, they find out via letter, Hey, you know how I was just going to to visit friends and family. I’m married now and I live in Manchester, New York. I mean, um, you know, some of us fathers could probably be like, that’s not the wedding I envisioned for my daughter. So they move up to live with Joseph Smith’s family who are super poor to begin with. But now not only do they have this financial problem that they have no money, because Joseph has said that he has plates, they now have a physical problem, and that is of persecution. People are starting to demand to see the plates threatening violence. I mean, people take a shot, a random shot at Joseph in 1827. There’s a mob that surrounds the house and threatens to attack Joseph.

   00:37:35  People are breaking into the home to try to find the plates and steal the plates. It is a very, very tense time and eventually, at least according to Martin Harris, Martin Harris tells Joseph Smith, Hey, you gotta get outta dodge. It’s no longer safe for you to be here. Joseph and Emma are gonna leave. I skipped over something very important, and that is after years and years and years of not being able to get those plates. it is Emma that goes with Joseph in the wagon they stole from Joseph Knight. I mean, they don’t steal it, but Joseph Knight like wakes up in the morning. He’s like, Hey, where’s my wagon? And it’s just gone. And yeah, ’cause I mean, look, they went to go get the plates and they took Joseph Knight’s wagon. He was staying at their, their house at the time. It’s Emma who is with him in that foundational event when after years of failure, Joseph is finally able to get the plates.

   00:38:39  Now he doesn’t bring them immediately back to the wagon because he’s so terrified. Given all the violence that’s already been, at least feared, that people would try to get those plates from him. That he takes and he hides them in a log and then comes back to the wagon without bringing the plates themselves with a plan to go back later and get them. And even when he goes back later to get them, he is attacked three times. But it’s Emma who’s with them in that moment. And then because of the increasing violence, because the threats are becoming so great, Emma does something that must have been incredibly difficult. She had turned her back on a prosperous, wealthy family in Harmony, married against her parents’ wishes. Left without so much as a, Hey, here’s our reception date. She just is gone, and realizing how horrible things are about to get, she writes a letter to her dad trying to feel out the property, some of the things that were there or mine, like the cattle that I had, and is it possible that I could still have those?

   00:39:58  So she’s trying to find a way to get some kind of financial stability. Isaac Hale, of course, still loves his daughter and says, of course those things are still yours. And then that escalates to, do you think we could move back down there? And that must have been an incredibly difficult letter for young Emma to write. And yet she did it because of her devotion to Joseph and to the, to the cause of the translation of the Book of Mormon. They’ll move back down. They are greeted at first cordially. But once Isaac Hale realizes that Joseph is still gonna keep doing this translation of the dang fangled gold Bible business, things become icy pretty quickly. They’re gonna move into their own home on the Isaac Hale property. There’s a separate home and they’ll move into that home. We don’t know what the terms of their moving into that home are, but we know that by April of 1829, they’ve lived in the home for a year now more than a year–that by April of 1829 before Oliver Cowdery shows up, things have gotten so bad that Isaac Hale is threatening to evict his own daughter and Joseph from this home on their property.

   00:41:18  You can only imagine the family tension. I mean anyone who’s listening that has experienced tension in the family, especially where it regards in-laws or siblings. Imagine if you were living next door to that day after day after day. And there’s not like a giant field of believers in Harmony. You got a grand total of not one person in Harmony that converts that we know of. The Hale family is prominent and powerful and it appears that they let people know Joseph’s a fraud and Josephs this and Josephs that.

Hank Smith:  00:41:57  The Knights are 25 miles away.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:42:00  Yeah, they’re not in Harmony. They’re clear up in Colesville. So yeah, the, the Knights believe and Josiah stole believes, but they don’t live in Harmony. Think about the fact that Emma is in this situation where she lives just down the road from her father, but her father hates who she’s married to so much that he’s willing to evict her from the house she lives in because Joseph’s not making the payments.

   00:42:30  We don’t really know what the terms are. How isolating must that have been. Emma, by this point is well aware that Joseph Smith is translating the Book of Mormon. She is the primary scribe for that early translation of the Book of Mormon. All the while that they are doing that, they are in very tough financial situation. What Joseph should be doing is what he was doing before, and that is every single day, hiring out his labor, going out to dig a ditch for someone for 75 cents a day. But it’s hard to do that when you’re translating the gold plates. Because if you spend all day translating, you don’t have the rest of the day then to go dig a ditch. Emma is immediately thrust from a life of luxury where, where their family was well off enough, she didn’t want for anything, to a life where they don’t have food to eat. Where they need Joseph Knight to feel inspired to come down with a barrel of fish to feed them early on. Talking about being tried and tested. I’ve talked too much. I mean, you’ll never have me back on again except for the other eight times .

   00:43:49  But in this early period, I don’t wanna leave the fact that Emma loses their first child. I can’t imagine the feelings that both Joseph and Emma have when they are in Harmony. Here they are in Harmony. I’m with family that hate us, that are treating us terribly, that are spreading all kinds of rumors about my husband in the neighborhood falsely. I’m pregnant with our first child. I am daily, even through the vicissitudes of pregnancy, trying to help my husband translate these gold plates that by the way, I’m not allowed to look at. She’ll feel them, she’ll move them. She knows they’re a physical reality, but she won’t ever look at them. In the midst of all of that, this is when Martin Harris comes down and asks to have the pages. I mean, he’s helping with the translation too. So he’s done a lot of the translation scribing as well, and he wants to take the pages.

   00:45:01  Joseph asks, and everybody knows the story that Joseph’s told no, he’s told no, he’s told no. Joseph eventually gives them to him. Martin Harris takes them. Part of the reason why Joseph doesn’t follow up on the pages very quickly is almost immediately after Martin leaves with the pages, Emma gives birth. Only it’s a horrific delivery. It is so terrible. I mean, 19th century medical practices, they are not great if you were to look at them from a 21st century medical perspective. And it is the primary cause of death for most women in their twenties is childbirth because it, there’s so many complications. They deliver their first son and it’s a horrible, horrible delivery. So bad that Emma nearly dies, and the child does die. In that moment, if you are Emma Smith, you have to be thinking, what more do you want me to sacrifice? I have been completely alienated and rejected by my family. All of the people that I knew in the neighborhood I grew up in mock and make fun of me because I believe this.

   00:46:25  I have spent countless hours scribing out part of the 116 pages that are eventually gonna be stolen. I can’t even have that child. I think that would’ve been horribly devastating to Emma and Joseph. And Emma herself is near death. At least Lucy McSmith says that Emma hovers near death for two weeks. That Joseph’s by her side just desperately trying to nurse his wife back to health. They’ve just lost their baby. They no longer have the pages. They don’t know that they’re lost for good. But in the midst of all of that, it’s actually Emma that says to Joseph, Hey, where’s Martin? He was supposed to go up there with the pages, show a couple of people who he had covenanted to only show certain people. He was supposed to show those people and he was supposed to come back down. She’s the one who says to Joseph, you have to go back up to Palmyra and get them. And think about this for a minute, how different it is than some of the people we know.

   00:47:40  All of us know someone in our lives that they think the world revolves around them. That if they find out that someone has a a terrible disease, they’re desperately trying to one up the terrible disease so that they can get some sympathy as well. You know, like, well, yeah, but I’ve also had a really hard time too. Like, oh, okay, okay. And here’s Emma, where she’s actually near death. She’s just lost her child. And she’s the one that says, you need to go get those pages because that’s the Lord’s work. And Joseph doesn’t want to go. Joseph is still fixated on the here and now. Joseph in 1828 is still the, the people around me. That’s who I listen to. That’s who I follow. I love Emma and I’m not leaving her. And it’s Emma that says, no, there’s something more important than me. It’s God and you go get those pages. And so it gives you this insight into who she is as a person.

John Bytheway:  00:48:48  Well, I just love that she’s a believer. I just wish we could hear the conversations during whatever courting they had, that she believed everything Joseph told her. To the point that she’s, go find out what happened to the manuscript. Go find Martin.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:49:06  That house they had on her dad’s property under the watchful and perhaps not so careful eye of her father, is really the only time at first that they’re gonna have their own home that you could even speak of for a while. When they move to Ohio, they are gonna be just like everybody else. I mean, you’d think that one of the perks of being married to the prophet is well, at least we’ll have a house built for us when we get there. Well, you won’t. They are commanded by Doctrine and Covenants section 38, the same way that every other saint is, that them that have farms that cannot be sold, let them be left or rented as seeth them good. Joseph does not own his farm outright. He has made payments on it. They’re not able to sell it. So they aren’t able to get any of their equity out of it.

   00:50:03  They do appear to rent it, although I don’t know what the terms are. And so they have been married now for over three years. When the Lord commands people to move to Ohio. They essentially have nothing to show of it. They have no worldly possessions to demonstrate what most young married couples would be able to say, Hey look, we started with one cow and now we have four. I mean, they aren’t able to do what, what all of us do. We buy a little house and we get enough equity in it that we sell it at some point and we move somewhere else for work or for a job and we get a slightly better house. And the reason why we can get a slightly better house is because we take the equity from our previous house and we…Joseph’s not able to do that.

   00:50:53  He’s not able to sell his farm so that he can go buy land in Ohio. So instead, because he’s following the revelation and because Emma is following the revelation, they do rent it. I’m sure they collect some income from it, but it doesn’t appear to be a whole lot. And they arrive in Ohio with essentially nothing else. They move for a time into the Morley home when they get to Ohio. They eventually are going to move into a Newel K. Whitney home. And then eventually they’re gonna move into the Newel K. Whitney store. So if you’re Emma, you are well into your fourth year of your marriage and you’re still living in other people’s houses. You still don’t own any property. You still don’t even have a home. You don’t even have a log cabin to yourself. There doesn’t seem to be any complaints. We don’t have any record of Emma writing to Joseph and saying, Hey Joseph, you know how we live above a store , you know, it’d be great if we like, I don’t know, lived somewhere that wasn’t some else’s store or house.

Hank Smith:  00:52:01  Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:52:03  We just don’t have any indication of that. On top of that, of course she’s doing everything she can to help take in all of the other people that are moving with nothing else and trying to support them. Meanwhile, Joseph is being repeatedly called to go on missions. Joseph is going various places. He’s going to go on a mission to Canada. He is gonna go to New York City. In fact, one of the letters we have between Joseph and Emma is, is what Joseph writes when he is in New York City. He gets to New York City and he, and he’s like, this is incredible. And so he writes to Emma, this is October of 1832: This day I have been walking through the most splendid part of the city of New York. The buildings are truly great and wonderful to the astonishing of every beholder of, and the language of my heart is like this.

   00:53:00  Can the great God of all earth, maker of all things magnificent and splendid, be displeased with man for all these great inventions sought out by them? My answer is no. It cannot. Be seeing these works are calculated to make men comfortable, wise and happy. Therefore, not for the works can the Lord be displeased. Only against man is the anger of the Lord kindled because they give not Him the glory, therefore their iniquity shall be visited upon their heads. He walks around the town and he says, the iniquity of the people is printed on every countenance. Nothing but the dress of the people makes them look fair and beautiful. All is deformity. There is something in every countenance that is disagreeable with few exceptions. Oh, how long, oh Lord, shall this order of things exist and darkness cover the earth and gross darkness cover the people.

   00:54:02  After beholding all that I had to desire to behold, I returned to my room to meditate and to calm my mind. And behold the thoughts of home, of Emma and Julia rushes upon my mind like a flood. And I could wish for a moment to be with them. My breast is filled with all feelings of tenderness of a parent and a husband. And could I be with you, I would tell you many things. Yet I reflect upon this great city like Nineveh, not discerning their right hand from their left. This is a letter written in Joseph’s own handwriting. It’s not spelled very well. I’ve been pronouncing it the way the words are supposed to pronounce. I haven’t been saying like, well, he’s missing several letters there. But here in 1832, when Joseph talks about their children, it’s just Julia Murdoch, their adopted daughter that they have.

   00:55:01  And that’s because the tragedies for Emma do not stop with the death of their, their son in 1828. They’re going to move to Ohio and when they get there, Emma is going to shortly thereafter give birth to twins. Those twins are both going to die immediately after birth and then they’re going to adopt the Murdoch twins, Julie and Joseph Murdoch. Joseph Murdoch, the young adopted son, is going to get very ill and die shortly after Joseph is tarred and feathered and beaten in Hyrum, Ohio. And at least Joseph and Emma felt that part of the reason why he continued to descend in his sickness was because of the exposure from the mob breaking in and smashing in. You know, by 1832, if you’re Emma, you have had five infants in your home, not in your home actually. ’cause you don’t have a home. You’ve had five infants, four of them are dead.

   00:56:17  I don’t know how Emma doesn’t shake her fist at heaven and say, how could you do this to me, God? She has made every sacrifice that she possibly could have made. And you’d think that the God who controls all heaven and earth, the omnipotent Father of all, could at least intervene to protect her children so that they could survive. We don’t actually get a murmur on that, but you, you get in this letter from Joseph from New York, how when he’s away from Emma, all he can think about is Emma. He looks at the world and it’s kind of overwhelming to Joseph. ’cause New York City is the biggest place Joseph’s ever been. And all Joseph can think about is, everyone in this city has no idea what the truthfulness of God is. Everyone in this city is lost and is fallen and it’s overwhelming to him. And how does he overcome his being overwhelmed. He thinks about Emma and Julia because they’re his rock. That’s where he goes to feel safe again, to feel good.

John Bytheway:  00:57:34  Man, I love that statement. The iniquity of the people is printed upon every countenance. Didn’t he say in another place that you can’t look upon someone without being able to discern something of their character?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:57:48  When he talks about that later in Nauvoo, he says something to that effect. Yeah.

John Bytheway:  00:57:52  It’s kind of different than you can’t judge a book by its cover. And I think that’s absolutely true of books. ’cause I have some books with some really bad covers, but , he can discern something on people’s countenance. That’s fascinating.

Hank Smith:  00:58:07  Yeah. Geritt, you talked about Joseph Smith going to Canada and New York. Isn’t he taking a couple long trips to Missouri as well?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  00:58:17  He sure is. Right after they show up, they have nothing. They’re trying to eek things out. God gives a commandment for the saints for dozens of elders and newly called, you know, high priests. They’ve been ordained to the high priesthood at this point. to make the thousand mile trip to Missouri. In America, in the 19th century, if you’re traveling a thousand miles, you aren’t going quickly. Which a month basically each direction, Joseph is gonna be gone for months. In this early situation that Emma is situated in. They get there, they have almost nothing. God calls Joseph to go on this mission down to Missouri to to find where Zion is going to be. And Emma is left behind and Joseph’s gone for months. When Joseph comes back, it’s not the end of that because Joseph’s then called to go on these various missions to both Canada and New York, which he’s also gone for weeks and months at a time.

   00:59:22  People in Kirtland aren’t exactly super happy that a bunch of Mormons are moving in. There is a concerted opposition that is developing. It’s not just newspaper articles attacking, there are people deliberately trying to undermine the church. This becomes most poignant. The good doctor Philastus Hurlbut, I say good doctor. Dr. Philastus Hurlbut is one of the great villains of early Latter-day Saint History. Someone who is excommunicated for multiple adulteries. He begs to get back into the church, Joseph, ’cause he is merciful, lets him back into the church. And then he immediately attempts to commit adultery again and is excommunicated again. After he’s excommunicated the second time, Hurlbut undertakes a speaking circuit in which he’s being paid to speak out against Mormonism. And surprisingly, this is gonna be hard to believe for anyone who’s watched any recent Netflix series, but stunningly, there seems to be a market for people attacking Latter-day Saints. Hurlbut’s able to charge for his services as he’s, as he’s telling people all the insides of, of Latter-day, of Mormonism. One of the things that Hurlbut is doing is he is threatening Joseph Smith and his family publicly and to the point where at least according to, to George A. Smith Hurlbut is saying that he will wash his hands in the blood of Joseph Smith.

   01:00:56  That sounds pretty extreme. An Ohio Court, that is not a Latter-day Saint Court in a time when Latter-Day Saints don’t ever win anything in court, finds Philastus Hurlbut guilty of threatening to quote wound, beat or kill Joseph Smith. For those Philastus Hurlbut apologists out there. You may want to back a different horse. This is such a threat that it’s terrifying to Joseph. When he’s called to go on his mission, he’s worried this guy legitimately wants to murder me and my family. What happens when I’m gone? How do I know that my family is is even going to be safe? For Joseph, he writes some of these feelings in a letter that he writes to the Saints in Missouri. I did forget to mention, I don’t want all of your listeners to be like, well, you know, was he a doctor of philosophy? Was perhaps he was a doctor of divinity and was a religious doctor or you know, maybe he was a medical doctor.

   01:02:02  You know, he, the heart surgeon, Dr. Philastus Hurlbut, but in fact, actually his parents named him Doctor. So his first name was Doctor, which is an incredibly, it it’s an ingenious plan. I mean, if you’re gonna have a kid that isn’t that bright, you name him something like that, and then people have to call him that and it gives him this–beyond his station, basically. One of his friends would later say that he was full of gab and quite illiterate. I mean, I guess with friends like that, you don’t need enemies, but, uh, right, uh, yeah. He’s not a highly educated man. He just happens to have the name Doctor and, you know, of course he uses that. But by August of 1833, things are so bad that Joseph is riding to the Saints in Missouri telling them things are bad because Hurlbut has been able to stir up the already latent anti-Mormon sentiments in the Ohio area.

   01:03:03  And now he’s putting a face to them and, and he’s claiming inside knowledge. He’s claiming he knows where the Book of Mormon actually comes from. That, oh yeah, you, you think that Joseph– actually, you know what? When I was on my mission, apparently when he wasn’t committing adultery, he found the actual book that the Book of Mormon was copied from. That it was actually this novel written by a pastor named Solomon Spalding. He’s really ginnning things up. And Joseph writes to the Saints in Missouri, we are suffering great persecution on account of one man by the name of, he spells all of this wrong, which actually makes me really smile. But one man by the name of Doctor–spelled wrong–Hurlbert, he throws just an R in there, you know, who’s been expelled from the church–He spells church wrong. All of this is, every word I’m saying is essentially spelled wrong.

   01:03:56  He’s been expelled from the church for a lewd and adulterous conduct. And despite us, he is lying in a wonderful manner and the people are running after him and giving him money to break down Mormonism, which much endangers our lives at present. But God will put a stop to his career soon and all will be well. So Emma is experiencing this as well. Another document that we have is that Joseph, we don’t have a date on this document, but Joseph has to leave town. He leaves a note for Newel K. Whitney to be careful with Hurlbut, with him being gone –be careful because of what Hurlbut might do. You know, we always think of Joseph suffering persecutions. Emma is suffering them right along with him. Her children are being exposed to the cold when that door breaks open. She’s the one having to help scrape the tar and feather off of Joseph after he is beaten and they try to poison him and kill him.

   01:05:00  And that says nothing of reputation. In the 19th century your reputation is the only thing that really matters in social circles. Whether or not you have money and what your good family name is. Well Emma doesn’t have any family name. In the 19th century. for women, the most important thing was that they had a household that they could be the domestic head of. Everything that happens inside the house, they’re the ones in charge of it. So the one thing that women looked forward to when they were getting married, at least one of the things, was that they would finally have a home of their own. They wouldn’t be under the thumb of their father anymore, telling them what they have to do, and that in that home, in that domestic sphere, they would be the one in charge of essentially everything. Well, Emma’s now well into her marriage and she doesn’t have her own home.

   01:06:01  They move around, they move to Hyrum and go live in the John Johnson home, but they’re still not living in their own home. She never has, in those early days, except for that brief time in Harmony when they’re still kind of under the thumb of her dad. She doesn’t have her own home where she can at least feel, culturally, that she is successful the way that the world is counting success for women at the time. I think that’s a great thing to apply to each of us today, is that what the world tells you success is and what God thinks success is are not the same thing. And Emma Smith recognizes that in all of her sufferings and persecutions.

John Bytheway:  01:06:49  When you have a strong marriage and your husband’s being persecuted, you’re being persecuted. Like you’ve just said, this becomes personal.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:06:59  My wife is the kindest person who’s ever lived on earth. Frankly, it’s an embarrassment to me because every time someone meets her, their reaction to me is like, why’d she marry you? It’s one of those things where you try hard to make a good impression, but you know, if Angie walks into the room legitimately, everyone there is gonna be like, boy, she really married down . I mean, I mean she’s, she’s just the most naturally kind and pleasant person that anyone’s ever met. And the only people that I have ever seen, my wife, the closest she could come to hate or despise someone, is people that she thinks have hurt me. And that’s it.

Hank Smith:  01:07:45  Which maybe is, you know, for someone who studies Joseph Smith, maybe the Lord just wanted you to experience, uh, the life. Look at this good woman who married down .

John Bytheway:  01:07:58  We heard that at timeout for women all the time. Most of my problems I either married or gave birth to, you know. What would Emma be thinking?

Hank Smith:  01:08:08  That was so funny.

John Bytheway:  01:08:09  This life, this unexpected life, you know, that her dad didn’t want her to have. And wow.

Hank Smith:  01:08:15  John, Gerrit, right in the Voices of the Restoration part of the online manual, it looks like during this Ohio period, the end of 1834, Emma receives a patriarchal blessing from Joseph Smith’s father, Joseph Smith Sr. If it’s okay with both of you, I wanna read this excerpt they have here: “Emma, my daughter-in-law, thou art blessed of the Lord, for thy faithfulness and truth: thou shalt be blessed with thy husband, and rejoice in the glory which shall come upon him: Thy soul has been afflicted because of the wickedness of men in seeking the destruction of thy companion, and thy whole soul has been drawn out in prayer for his deliverance: rejoice, for the Lord thy God has heard thy supplication. Thou hast grieved for the hardness of the hearts of thy father’s house, and thou hast longed for their salvation. The Lord will have respect to thy cries, and by his judgments he will cause some of them to see their folly and repent of their sins; but it will be by affliction that they will be saved.

   01:09:39  Thou shall see many days; yea, the Lord will spare thee till thou art satisfied, for thou shalt see thy Redeemer. Thy heart shall rejoice in the great work of the Lord, and no one shall take thy rejoicing from thee. Thou shalt ever remember the great condescension of thy God in permitting thee to accompany my son when the angel delivered the record of the Nephites to his care. Thou hast seen much sorrow because the Lord has taken from thee three of thy children: in this thou are not to be blamed, for he knows thy pure desires to raise up a family, that the name of my son might be blessed. And now, behold, I say unto thee, that thus says the Lord, if thou wilt believe, thou shalt yet be blessed in this thing and thou shalt bring forth other children, to the joy and satisfaction of thy soul, and to the rejoicing of thy friends. Thou shalt be blessed with understanding, and have power to instruct thy sex. Teach thy family righteousness, and thy little ones the way of life, and the holy angels shall watch over thee: and thou shalt be saved in the kingdom of God; even so. Amen.”

   01:10:40  Isn’t that just beautiful?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:10:45  Yeah. I think especially that you get a sense of maybe some of the things that Emma has both thought or that she has been told, given just how catastrophic her early life was with her children. There apparently are people that say things like, well of course your babies are dying because you’re following after that gold Bible delusion and that false prophet and your husband, and God’s punishing you. And in the world they live in, people see horrible events as the judgments of God. And every time something bad happens to a Latter-day Saint people are quick to jump on board and say, wow, what did you think would happen when you blaspheme God claiming you’ve seen angels in a gold Bible? And so, I don’t know if it’s just something that she’s heard or something that she’s thought, but that phraseology that’s in there

Hank Smith:  01:11:54  Not to be blamed. Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:11:57  You are not to be blamed.

John Bytheway:  01:12:01  Geritt, this has been great and I suspect we’re gonna be talking about Emma for the rest of the year, but could you just walk us through what happens with Emma for the next five to 10 years?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:12:12  The persecution that Joseph and Emma experience in Ohio really is at the beginning of the trouble. so to speak. You have this real spike in anti-Mormon sentiment that comes from people like Doctor Philastus Hurlbut. Probably the place that is least expected for Emma and Joseph of the difficulties they’re going to have is actually from internal apostacies. There’s early apostates in the church who turn against the church. I mean, Joseph Wakefield was one of the great early missionaries of the early church and then he becomes one of the leaders of the anti-Mormon committee in Kirtland when he apostatizes. You have people like Simonds Ryder who’s an early great member and then becomes one of the leaders of the apostates. Doctor Philastus Hurlbut himself was a member than an apostate. But those were cases more of individual people trying to stir up the outside and they have an aggregate effect.

   01:13:14  But what’s gonna start to happen more in Emma’s life is that not only are you dealing with internal dissensions, you’re going to start to have to deal with the much more organized violence and threat of violence against the Saint. In 1836 is like this high time of Kirtland for the saints where the temple is dedicated and we have a Quorum of the Twelve Apostles now. They have this First Presidency. The church is being more organized. There’s many more converts coming in, temple being dedicated, and you go from that high point to not even two years later, God is actually commanding Joseph and all other members, including Emma, the faithful Saints. Joseph receives a revelation in January of 1838 commanding the Saints, who are faithful, to leave Ohio and to go to Missouri. All throughout this time period, the church has two locales because Kirtland is the headquarters of the church.

   01:14:24  That’s where Joseph is. The headquarters is, is wherever the president is. But they all know that Jackson County, Zion, is where the eventual headquarters, not only of the church, but of of the Lord Jesus when he comes again is going to be. But they were driven out of Jackson County in 1834. The Saints are living in various places in Missouri in 1834. It’s kind of a problem for Missouri because you have these thousands of people living in your state who own legal titles to lands that they’re being kept from by people with guns. Is that a tenable situation that you can just be like, well, they have guns so they can have your house. Missouri tries to rectify their Mormon problem by doing something that’s a tried and true method of American history. When you have a group of people that you don’t want to have to deal with, and that is they create a Mormon reservation, they establish a new county called Caldwell County.

   01:15:30  It’s gonna come as a shock to people that they create this county out of land that other people don’t really wanna settle on. And then they say, oh, this is gonna be where all the Mormons have to live. The Latter-day Saints are excited about it. They’re glad to have a county that they can at least settle in. They’ve been living as refugees, but this is where Far West is going to be. So, the Saints are gonna start flowing to Far West. Well, in 1837 things are going to really go badly, both in Missouri and in Ohio, roughly at the same time. With some of it being related, some of it not. I imagine that late 1837 and early 1838 are very traumatic times for Emma because you go from seeing the church at its zenith almost with the dedication of the temple to seeing that temple a little over a year and a half later being taken over by apostates who are refusing entry to people.

   01:16:32  You have people making daily threats against Joseph and his family that used to be your friends. You have multiple members of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles that have apostatized and are speaking out. It’s January that Joseph receives that revelation that they need to leave and go to Far West. And Joseph will go. To give you a little bit of an idea of this time period that–now this is before most of the troubles in 1837. But I wanted to read part of this letter that Emma sends to Joseph in early 1837. This was April 1837, but you get I, I want you to kind of get a feel for their relationship and for Emma’s personality, this is a letter that she wrote April 25th, 1837. We are running right up against before the troubles begin, before the explosion of the failure of the Kirtland Safety Society before the mass apostacies in Missouri.

   01:17:30  It’s kind of like the last glimpse into, hey, maybe things are okay and they’re not going to be, but she says: Dear husband, your letter was welcomed by both friends and foes. We were glad enough to hear that you was well and our enemies think that they have almost found you, but seeing where the letters were mail–by seeing where the letters were mailed–so they’re trying to track Joseph basically based upon where the letters are–we are all well as usual except for mother is not quite as well as common. Our family is small, and yet I have a great deal of business to see too. Brother Tenny has not yet moved and he does not know when he will. We could have taken possession of all the room that we get. So, she’s just sharing with Joseph of things that are going on.

   01:18:13  But even though we have a small family, we we’ve got a lot that we have to do. Brother Knight will tell you better–he’s the one carrying the letter-will tell you better about the business than I can write as there is, but a moment for me to improve. Meaning she doesn’t have time to write. I cannot tell you of my feelings when I found I could not see you before you left. Yet I expect that you can realize them. The children feel very anxious about you because they don’t know where you’ve gone. I verily feel that if I had no more confidence in God than some I could name, I should be a sad case indeed. But I still believe that if we are humble ourselves and are as faithful as we can be, we shall be delivered from every snare that may be laid for our feet and our lives and property will be saved and we redeemed from all unreasonable encumbrances.

   01:19:04  My time is out. I pray that God will keep you in purity and safety until we meet again. Emma Smith. You get a good insight into her faith. There’s problems, there’s things going on, and she goes back to the fact, I believe. So, because I believe we’re gonna get through these difficulties. We’re gonna get through these trials. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of negative outside actors that are going to intervene. Emma’s gonna move with her family to Far West to be with Joseph in 1838. And for a very brief time things seem good in Far West. You have about four or five months that the church is finally all together. You’re no longer split between Kirtland and Far West. Far West is now where the headquarters of the church is. It’s where all the members are moving. It’s just a couple of months later in the late summer of 1838 that Missouri is gonna explode like a powder keg. That what’s termed the “Mormon War” in Missouri is going to break out.

   01:20:08  Eventually. It’s going to lead to the extermination order being issued by Governor Boggs. This is going to affect Emma Smith very directly for two reasons. First, her husband, Joseph, is going to be tricked by another apostate into surrendering himself to the Missouri militia. Who everyone knows that that story that initially they want to execute him immediately for treason against the state of Missouri and that, you know, Alexander Donovan intervenes and tells them to not do it, tells them he’ll hold them before an earthly tribunal if they do. But then Joseph is taken away. In the absence of Joseph being taken away, then the Missouri Militia is going to move into Far West. It’s just a scene of depredations. They are going to rob and steal and commit all manner of assaults. Some of the people leading these depredations are former members of the church. When Joseph asked for Emma to send him some blankets because there’s no real heat in that jail and it, and he’s freezing.

   01:21:23  Emma has to respond that they don’t have any blankets and bedding left, because William McClellan, former member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles, has stolen all of their bedding and all of their blankets. That’s a pretty low time. At least the Missourians are saying that Joseph is going to be killed. You’re dealing with the aftermath of the horrendous massacre at Hans Mill. Where it’s no longer theoretical–the idea that people might just start killing people because they’re Mormons. It’s now a reality. A reality is that the Missouri State Militia, this is not a mob. You know, we often call it a mob at Hans Mill. They certainly act like a mob, but they are the legitimate state militia led by militia leaders ordering the murder of children in Hans Mill. Joseph’s incarceration, the violence that’s enacted against all the saints, places Emma in a horrible place in the winter of 1838 leading into 1839.

   01:22:33  She doesn’t know what’s going to happen. She doesn’t know if she’s going to see Joseph again. I mean eventually she’s gonna be able to go visit. But one of the things we have between them is the letters they write to one another from primarily Liberty Jail. That gives us a little bit of insight into their relationship. So, I thought I’d share some of that. When Joseph is in Richmond Jail, this is the jail that you’ve heard the story of Joseph standing up and rebuking the guards. That took place in Richmond Jail. He’s taken to Richmond Jail first and then eventually he’s going to be incarcerated in Liberty Jail. Richmond, Missouri. Yeah. Not Richmond, Virginia, although , I’m sure the climate would’ve been better.

Hank Smith:  01:23:16  Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:23:17  The place where eventually David Whitmer will settle and live and in fact is buried in Richmond, Missouri. But this is where Joseph is first taken and put under guard, along with others like Parley Pratt who tells us the story of Joseph standing up in the chains. This is one of the letters that Joseph writes in his own handwriting. So, this is one of these few letters that Joseph’s not using a scribe. He’s the one writing it himself to Emma, and this is from November 12th, 1838: My dear Emma, we are prisoners in chains and under strong guard for Christ’s sake and for no other cause. Although there has been things that were unbeknownst to us and altogether beyond our control that might seem to the mob to be a pretext for them to persecute us. But on examination, I think that the authorities will discover our innocence and set us free.

   01:24:12  But if this blessing cannot be obtained, I have this consolation that I’m an innocent man. Let what will befall me. I received your letter and I read it over and over again. It was a sweet morsel to me, oh God, grant, that I may have the privilege of seeing once more my lovely family in the enjoyment of the sweets of liberty and social life. To press them to my bosom and kiss their lovely cheeks, would fill my heart with unspeakable gratitude. Tell the children that I’m alive and trust that I shall come and see them before long/ Comfort their hearts, all that you can and try to be comforted yourself all that you can. There is no possible danger, but that we shall be set at liberty if justice can be done. And that you know as well as myself the trial will begin today for some of us. And then he says, we are thus bound together in chains as well as in the courts of everlasting love. We are in good spirits and we rejoice that we were counted worthy to be persecuted for Christ’s sake. Tell little Joseph that he must be a good boy. That father loves him with a perfect love, that he’s the eldest and he must not hurt those that are smaller than him, but comfort them. Tell little Frederick Father loves him with all his heart.

   01:25:42  He is a lovely boy. Julia is a lovely little girl. I love her also. She is a promising child. Tell her, father wants her to remember him and to be a good girl and tell all the rest that I think and I pray of them all. The little baby Alexander is on my mind continually. Oh my affectionate Emma, I want you to remember that I am your true and faithful friend to you and the children forever. My heart is entwined around yours forever and ever. Oh, may God bless you all. Amen. I am your husband and I’m in the bonds of tribulation. And then he adds a p.s. to it. P.S. Write as often as you can and if possible come see me and bring the children if possible. Act according to your own feelings and best judgment and endeavor to be comforted if possible.

   01:26:45  And I trust that all will turn out for the best. Yours, Joseph Smith. It’s hard to read letters like this, knowing the violence that’s been enacted. You can see how real of a person Joseph Smith is. He desperately misses his wife and he desperately misses his children. He is dealing with the reality that he may not ever come back. When people attack the character of Joseph Smith, I feel it’s because, uh, well, there’s a lot of reasons, but they are certainly not being honest in reading things like that from him. Does he sound like a mega maniacal, evil person? Anyone who reads that letter can feel the goodness of the person behind it writing it. It’s part of the reason why we should study the things that people have written themselves in the past so that we’re not just constantly listening to what other people have to say about who Joseph Smith was. How about we read the letters that Joseph Smith wrote to Emma and then we’ll get an insight into who Joseph Smith was. Rather than just letting someone on X tell us what we should think about it.

John Bytheway:  01:28:05  Especially a letter like that, when you see what he was thinking about and it sounds as if he did not know if he would survive this. So, what’s on his mind? A little message to each of the children and a beautiful restatement of love and loyalty to Emma. I mean, what a window into this, his soul. Talk to somebody in a moment of great tribulation and you have a window into their soul, wouldn’t you say?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:28:32  Oh, I think so and and you’re right. He doesn’t know. And look the Missourians around him, if we read some of Hyrum Smith’s explanation of what’s going on to them when they are first taken, the Missourians are continually telling them that they’re going to be killed. The Missourians are constantly saying you’re going to be executed. What Joseph is hearing from these false captors is not only that horrendous vile, outrageous are taking place on the Latter-day Saint population, but also that your ultimate end is that you’re going to be executed. We all know that Joseph eventually gets out of jail in Missouri, but Joseph doesn’t know that Joseph eventually is going to get out of jail in Missouri. Emma doesn’t know that Joseph’s eventually going to get out of jail in Missouri. And as the months drag on, it becomes in increasingly difficult for either of them to see when that freedom is ever going to come.

Hank Smith:  01:29:35  I love what you both have said, giving us an insight into Joseph. I’ll just give you another witness. He does not know that anyone is gonna read this letter. He doesn’t know that, oh, I better write this very touching thing because in a podcast in 2025, I’ve got to fool the world. He does not know. It’s crazy to think, well, that’s what someone would write if they were a big fraud and and everyone’s gonna read this letter. This is for his wife. He has zero idea that this would be a public thing.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:30:16  It is important to note that because today because we have such different record keeping, I will occasionally have people say things like, well, I mean they had to know that people are gonna eventually read their journals. Well, actually they didn’t have to know that and most people’s journals are not published and made public. For most people it is not a common thing actually. Yeah. A letter that he writes to Emma that he most likely thinks is not even going to survive. Most letters that have ever been written don’t exist. It’s not like that most of them are in some repository. Someone who’s trying to argue that when you see the humanity of Joseph Smith displayed in the things he writes, says, and does that he’s really just playing a part of a charlatan because later someone is going to look at it. Anyone who says that is beyond delusional in their desperate attempts to find some way to not have to deal with the reality of who Joseph Smith was as a person.

Hank Smith:  01:31:25  Thank you.

John Bytheway:  01:31:26  A couple of times in that letter that you just read, he speaks of being in chains. I was watching a talk that Michael Ballam gave, who was playing the Apostle Paul in one of the church movies that they made, having to wear chains, having never done that before, but as an actor having to wear chains and to feel what that felt like. How limiting and debilitating it was. I had never considered that sort of thing. And here’s Joseph in chains.

Hank Smith:  01:32:01  I love both of you, but if we were chained together and just sleeping, just sleeping, I’d be like, John, you’re killing me. Stop moving.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:32:11  I’m pretty sure if I was sleeping on a floor I would be snoring as well, right? Yeah. So, that it’s not gonna be helpful.

Hank Smith:  01:32:19  Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:32:19  Maybe I’ll share another letter. This is one of the letters that Joseph writes to Emma first when he is taken and incarcerated again. This one is written in Joseph’s Smith’s own handwriting. This is from November 4th, 1838: My dear and beloved companion of my bosom, in tribulation and affliction. I would inform you that I am well and that we are all of us in good spirits. As regards to our own fate we’ve been protected by the Jackson County Boys in the most genteel manner. I think that he’s being sarcastic here. We arrived here in the midst of a splendid parade a little afternoon instead of going into the jail. We have a good house provided for us and the kindest treatment. I have great anxiety about you and my lovely children. My heart mourns and bleeds for the brethren and sisters and for the slain of the people of God. Colonel Hinkle–this is George Hinkle, the person who betrayed Joseph Smith to the Missouri authorities. Colonel Hinkle proved to be a traitor to the church. He is worse than a Hull who betrayed the army at Detroit. That’s a very 19th century euphemism. I would guess that most Latter-day Saints, or actually most Americans have no idea what the Hull at Detroit is.

John Bytheway:  01:33:51  I know a podcast host who doesn’t know what that is.

Hank Smith:  01:33:56  Hey, why are you saying that about me?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:33:58  No, no one present. But uh…

John Bytheway:  01:34:01  Yeah–saying that about me. That whole Detroit thing. Yeah. Yeah. Would you just kinda restate that please.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:34:06  You know, I know what it is, but what if you were to tell me first. I just wanna see if you know what it is. It’s a reference to this ignominious moment in American history in the war of 1812, where Fort Detroit was the primary fort defending the American Midwest at the time, as they called it, from British invasion from Canada. General Hull was such a terrible commander, and I apologize to any of his family who happened to be listening, but he was. That there was a very small detachment of British and Native American forces that surrounded the fort. His fort was able to withstand them and he actually had a larger army and he decided to just surrender the fort and all of his forces and it opened up the entire interior to British attacks in the war of 1812. And so he ends up getting tried and court-martialed for it. It’s a pretty colloquial thing for Joseph to be like, you know, he was a worst traitor than Hull was at Detroit. It’s a reference that everyone understands who reads it because his name was so tarnished that he essentially surrendered his fort to a force that was like five times smaller than his.

Hank Smith:  01:35:24  I’ve heard some people today, maybe we’ve even forgotten this one, but Benedict Arnold, right? He’s a…

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:35:29  Yep. Oh, Benedict Arnold. People will, will still use it. And that’s of course the most famous one because of the revolution. I think Hull’s a little bit more-timely in their regard. They don’t know Benedict Arnold, but they know Hull. That’s what Joseph grew up in the midst of the war of 1812. Well, he would’ve heard all about that back to his letter. He says, General Wilson says he thinks much less of him now –he’s talking about George Hinkle than before. Why I mentioned this is to have you careful not to trust them. So, one of the things Josephs worried about is he goes out to this peace conference, supposed peace conference, George Hinkle’s leading him out and then they’re arrested. Well then George Hinkle goes back into Far West. So, Joseph’s worried that this diabolical traitor. What if people there don’t even know that he’s the one who did this?

   01:36:21  Part of why Joseph’s writing this letter is to say, Hey, George Hinkle is, I was gonna say a piece of garbage, but I, Joseph doesn’t say that, but you know what, I’m gonna say that and is a liar. And so don’t trust what he has to say. We have obtained a promise that we may have our families brought to us. What God may do for us, I do not know, but I hope for the best always and in all circumstances, although I go unto death, I will trust in God. Whatever outrages may be committed by the mob I know not, but expect that there will be but little or no restraint. And he is absolutely right in that the violence enacted against the Latter-day Saints in the face of this is horrifying. As Joseph will later write: Their deeds, if they were known, they would cause the the devil himself to palsy. I can’t share everything given the non-explicit nature of the show. But this is not simply some houses being burned down. This is not simply some crops being destroyed. This is not simply, hey, pack up and leave. There is horrific, awful personal violence that takes place against Latter-day Saints. And Joseph is going to be continually hearing about it and Emma is going to be continually living through it. It is a horror story, this time period in Latter-day Saint History.

John Bytheway:  01:37:55  I’m trying to imagine, because a lot of us in our lives and in our trials are trying to make sense of what God is up to. If you are Joseph Smith and your own people are being persecuted like that and your family. How does this make sense that I’m in jail right now? I can’t do anything and I thought about Liberty Jail too for months. Why am I even here? I can’t even do anything. And for me that would be a faith crisis in what God is like and why are you letting me languish here when my people are, as you just alluded to, Gerrit, there’s atrocities being committed against my people that he’s hearing about and he is helpless to do anything. I can’t imagine anything tougher than that. When you can’t do anything and you’re wondering how does this make sense in the plan?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:38:46  I won’t but someone better than me will later cover Doctrine and Covenants section 1 21, 22 and 23, which are excerpts from the letters that Joseph writes to the church from Liberty Jail. Those are excerpts of letters. They are not the entirety of them. They are some powerful special points from them. But when you read those letters in their entirety, it, it is very clear that while we often portray Joseph as having a pity party in Liberty Jail. We often portray him as like, boy man, I can’t even stand up in here. It’s cold and God, when are you gonna do something about this? I feel like we’re being fed bad food. It is very clear from the remainders of the letters, Joseph lists off all of the horrible things that are going on, all the reports he’s getting that the Saints are suffering. At the end of listing off all the things the Aaints are going through, that’s when he says, oh God, where art though?

Hank Smith:  01:39:48  It’s not about him as much. Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:39:51  Yeah. I mean obviously he’s suffering, but that’s not what causes him to cry out. What causes him to cry out is hearing about all of the suffering of everyone else. I don’t perceive a faith crisis. I mean you certainly have Joseph asking the question of why.

John Bytheway:  01:40:09  He doesn’t say there is no God. He just says, where are you right now?

Hank Smith:  01:40:13  Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:40:13  It’d be a great time for you to intervene ’cause he doesn’t know what’s going on. In this letter as as he continues. ’cause this is one of his first letters after he’s arrested.

John Bytheway:  01:40:23  Just so everybody knows we have an upcoming Voices of the Restoration, which will just be on Liberty Jail. But let’s do what we’re doing right now. ’cause this is so interesting and informative. So, yeah, keep going. Geritt.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:40:37  In the second half of this letter, Joseph writes: I don’t know where it will end. He’s talking about the violence. It is said by some that General Clark is determined to exterminate. This is what he’s hearing. And frankly, given what’s happened at Hans Mill, it sure seems like that’s kind of what’s going on. God has spared some of us thus far. Perhaps he will extend mercy in some degree towards us yet. Some of the people this place have told me that some of the Mormons may settle in this county as other men do. I have some hopes that some things may turn out for the good to the afflicted Saint. I want you to stay where you are until you hear from me again. I may send for you to bring to me. I cannot learn much for a certainty in the situation that I’m in and can only pray for deliverance until it is meted out and take everything as it comes.

   01:41:33  So, there’s Joseph saying he’s in this horrible situation and all I can do is respond as things come. I don’t have the ability to prepare. I don’t know what’s going to happen. To take everything as it comes with patience and fortitude. I hope you will be faithful and true to every trust I can write much in my situation. Conduct all matters as your circumstances and necessities require. May God give you wisdom and prudence and sobriety, which I have every reason to believe that you will. Those little children are the subject of my meditation continually. Tell them that Father is yet alive. God, grant that he may see them again. Oh, Emma, for God’s sake, do not forsake me nor the truth. But remember, if I do not meet you again in this life,

   01:42:20  may God grant that we may meet in heaven. I cannot express my feelings. My heart is full. Farewell oh my kind, affectionate. Emma. I am yours forever. Your husband and a true friend. Part of these raw letters, you really feel the love that Joseph has for Emma and how close he is to her. I think it’s important, then, also to read how Emma responds to him in some of her letters. In March of 1839, Emma writes a letter to Joseph that we have that demonstrates the love they have for one another. Dear husband, having an opportunity to send by a friend. I make an attempt to write, but I shall not attempt to write my feelings altogether for the situation in which you are. The walls, the bars, the bolts, the rolling rivers, running streams, the rising hills, sinking valleys and spreading prairies that separate us.

   01:43:33  And the cruel injustice that first cast you into prison and still holds you there with many other considerations, places my feelings far beyond description. Was it not for conscious innocence and the direct inner position of divine merc, I am very sure that I should never have been able to have endured the scenes of suffering that I have passed through since what is called the militia came into Far West under the ever to be remembered, governor’s notable order, and an order fraught with as much wickedness and ignorance, and as much ignorance as was ever contained in an article of that length. But I still live and I’m yet willing to suffer more if that is the will of kind heaven that I should for your sake. Now at this point, Emma’s writing from Quincy. Because the saints were ordered to leave the state because of the violence that’s going on.

   01:44:34  Emma is going to walk with her children in the middle of winter across the state to get to the Mississippi River, cross the river into Quincy as a refugee. So, when she talks about the suffering she’s endured, it is incredible. She doesn’t have Joseph to lean on. She clearly doesn’t have enough bedding and clothing and supplies for herself because the mob, you know, sorry, the militia, I keep calling them the mob. They’re literally the state militia. They are the, they’re the official state militia of, of Missouri–have committed such horrible depredations. And yet you see Emma’s fortitude, she’s gone through this horrific experience. Her husband has now been gone for more than three months, that he has been incarcerated and the threats that they’re going to kill him and execute him constantly. She’s watched the violence going around and her response is, I am still living and yet willing to suffer more if it is the will of heaven.

   01:45:38  I think you get an insight into who Emma Smith is as a believer. That if I was just having this happen to me, I wouldn’t be able to get through it. But because I believe in God, even though it’s her husband that is threatened with death, even though she’s just lost yet another house, yet another home, yet another farm to stack onto the pile of things that she’s sacrificed from the time that she’s come into the church. Her reaction is not to doubt God at all. To say whatever God needs me to do, that’s what I’m gonna do.

John Bytheway:  01:46:12  Geritt, this has been fantastic. It just makes me think, gee, if only somebody would just compile all of their letters. I don’t know, we could call it, uh, Joseph Smith Letters or something. To get these insights and these real people. I feel like we’re constructing a, a hall of fame that we can walk through and be inspired by these people. What they’ve done. And Geritt, we’re so glad to have you on this. Give us that insight into these letters.

Hank Smith:  01:46:41  Geritt, are these available?

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:46:43  Yeah, all of these letters are available on the Joseph Smith papers website. So, if you go to Josephsmithpapers.org, you click the year 1838, you can scan through and you will see it’ll say letter to Joseph Smith, letter from Emma Smith to Joseph. You can read more about their correspondence with one another

Hank Smith:  01:47:01  And not just the text. You can read the actual letter.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:47:06  Yep.

John Bytheway:  01:47:06  You can see them there and then they have the text.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:47:09  We realize that not everyone, look, Emma has some beautiful handwriting, you know, and Joseph’s is not terrible, but a lot of the letters are not exactly super readable, especially if you happen to be anyone that’s the age of my teenagers who can’t read cursive at all.

Hank Smith:  01:47:24  Yeah.

Gerrit Dirkmaat:  01:47:25  Cursive to them it doesn’t even exist. And so it’s even harder for them to read, uh, these kind of letters. Part of what the historians working for the church did is they created transcripts that are next to it. So, you can see the image of the actual letter and next to it you can actually read, you know, what the words are saying and so you don’t have to try to decipher it out. But..

John Bytheway:  01:47:47  I love that so much because one of the things that was drummed into me in school was if you can find original sources, well, there it is. There is the original source right there.

Hank Smith:  01:47:59  We have, uh, Geritt back soon for the Gathering to Ohio–Voices of the Restoration Gathering to Ohio.

John Bytheway:  01:48:08  Well, once again, thank you Dr. Geritt Dirkmaat. We’ll have you back as we expand our restoration hall of fame. So please come back again for Voices of the Restoration on Follow Him.