Hank Smith: 00:00:00 Coming up in this episode on Follow Him.

Andy Horton: 00:00:03 I had a lady come into my office. She had committed a pretty serious sin months ago, and as I share this, I want to throw in a little caveat that says, the spirit directs you to handle situations differently with every individual. This outcome may be different with someone else, but she came in, she was so terrified. For some reason she had skipped over her bishop and had come to confess to me, and she was so terrified of the event of confession that she brought her home teacher with her, which is a compliment to that home teacher that she trusted him that much. But the two of them are sitting in my office and she goes on to confess a pretty serious sin that she had committed.

Hank Smith: 00:00:50 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host and I’m here with my co-host John Bytheway, who walks in meekness. John, Doctrine and Covenants, Section 19.

John Bytheway: 00:01:04 Yeah, it’s hard to get off the soles of my feet at night, but I walk.

Hank Smith: 00:01:09 He walks in meekness.

John Bytheway: 00:01:10 It’s a creek behind my home.

Hank Smith: 00:01:15 John, we are joined by a fantastic teacher, brother Andy Horton is with us. John, what are you looking forward to today?

John Bytheway: 00:01:22 And I’ve said this before and then I’m always nervous, should I even say that because I might change my mind next week, but I feel like Section 19 is one of my favorites of the whole Doctrine and Covenants. It’s to Martin Harris, who I relate to more in some ways than others. There’s some amazing doctrine right at the beginning. There’s some beautiful advice about prayer at the end. I’m looking forward to the whole thing. I love this section.

Hank Smith: 00:01:48 Yeah, me too. Me too. Andy, what are we going to do today?

Andy Horton: 00:01:52 Well, I’m excited to talk about it because I feel a lot of us are a lot like Martin Harris. He is in the midst of a struggle. Dark clouds are gathering a little bit for him, and all of us have experienced some dark clouds in life. I’m excited to talk about what the Savior’s solution is to dark clouds and struggles.

Hank Smith: 00:02:12 I love that. John, Andy has never been with us before on the show, so we probably ought to give him a little bit of an introduction.

John Bytheway: 00:02:22 Yes, and Andy Horton has been someone that we’ve known for a long time. He’s taught for 30 years in seminaries and institutes for a long time up at the church headquarters making movies. And that’s where he used his degree in Zoology to make those, right? He served his mission in San Bernardino, Spanish speaking, married Stephanie. What was it? Provo and Timpview. You both. You were at different schools down there.

Andy Horton: 00:02:46 Yeah, avid rivals, but we’re starting to get along now after 30 years of marriage.

John Bytheway: 00:02:50 So glad. Six children, six grandchildren. We’re just really glad to have him, Hank, because this is someone we’ve known for a long time.

Hank Smith: 00:02:58 So your wife’s from Utah County? Andy, what was her maiden name?

Andy Horton: 00:03:03 Gillespie. Her dad was a coach up at Timpview High School. A lot of people know him from being a coach.

Hank Smith: 00:03:10 Nice. Andy was a stake president for many years. And Andy, I know this story, but maybe we just let our listeners in on a little bit. You were not expecting to be called a stake president.

Andy Horton: 00:03:24 Do you want the story? Do you really want the story? If you don’t mind. I was not expecting. I was on the High Council. The only reason I was interviewed in my mind was because I was on the High Council. They interview bishops and high counselors and a couple others. So I go to the interview, it’s three minutes, and then I left there knowing very well that I’m not going to be the new stake president. So I go to watch a basketball game with my wife. Our son was playing, and I thought, well, I should prank my wife. So I text my daughter and I say, Hey, call my phone. So Malia calls pick up my phone and I look at it and I look at my wife with big eyes and I run out of the gym. When I came back in, I said, wow, we have to go to the stake center for I guess another interview.

  00:04:07 She goes, no, tell me that’s not true. And I said, I’m just kidding. And I thought I was so funny. I thought I was so funny. I set my phone down and it literally rings three minutes later and I pick it up and it has the name of the current stake president and I show my wife and she says, this little proud look on her face. She says, oh, it’s not so funny now, is it? So I run back out of the gym, come back in. We really go over. We really get called pretty crazy. There’s more to the story, but I may tell it a little bit in a few minutes. I thought you had to be a Bishop first. It was kind of a prerequisite and I hadn’t been. I’m thinking, wow, some poor chump’s going to get called and here’s the chump. The chump got called.

Hank Smith: 00:04:50 Some poor chumps gonna get.. and he was, he was.

Andy Horton: 00:04:56 Yeah, it was quite a surprise.

John Bytheway: 00:04:58 That’s a great story. I might try that, but then as soon as I try it, I’m going to turn the phone off. Completely off.

Hank Smith: 00:05:06 It’s gone. And the return, the voicemail says something like, John is not here, nor will he ever be. So call someone else.

John Bytheway: 00:05:18 He’s eternally not here in keeping with the section we’re covering today.

Hank Smith: 00:05:22 Right. Hey, I’m going to read from the Come, Follow Me manual and then Andy, take us where you want to go. I’m happy to hear you’ve been preparing and I think our listeners are going to love what you have to share. Here’s how the Come, Follow Me Manual starts. It took Martin and Lucy Harris years to acquire one of the finest farms in Palmyra, New York. But in 1829, it became clear that the Book of Mormon could be published only if Martin mortgaged his farm to pay the printer. Martin had a testimony of the Book of Mormon, but Lucy did not. If Martin went forward with the mortgage and the Book of Mormon did not sell well, he would lose his farm, put his marriage at risk, and damage his reputation in the community. Although our circumstances are different from Martins at some time or another, we all face difficult questions like those he faced. What is the gospel of Jesus Christ worth to me? What am I willing to sacrifice to help build God’s kingdom? Martin Harris ultimately decided that he would mortgage his farm. So the first 5,000 copies of the Book Mormon could be printed, but even this sacrifice and any sacrifice we might make is small compared to the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the greatest of all who bled from every pore to save the repentant. Beautiful opener. Andy, with that, what do you want to do first?

Andy Horton: 00:06:42 Let me give you a little bit of detail on what’s going on with Martin. I’ve felt as I’ve prepared this, if you don’t have the backstory on what’s been going on in Martin’s life, it takes away from some of the power in Section 19. You can’t live life on this earth without going through troubles. Some trials, sacred experiences, if you will. Our troubles today really are not very different from what Martin is facing. I hope I can make that connection. It can be really hard sometimes to do what the Lord’s asking, when these influences–I like to use the word perfectly–they perfectly push against us to try and stop us from making the right choices. I’ve learned and seen in this section that the Lord, his light seems to shine the brightest when things seem the most impossible. Martin was born in New York in 1783, but he married his first cousin, Lucy.

  00:07:36 He and Lucy owned, this number matters, they owned 320 acres in Palmyra, eventually. He reportedly investigated the Quaker religion, universalist, restorationists, Baptist, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and some may not know that he kind of believed in the restorationists idea. He looked for the return of Christianity. In fact, he is quoted as saying that in the year 1818, he says, I was inspired of the Lord and taught of the spirit that I should not join any church. Well, that sounds really familiar, doesn’t it? Compared to what Joseph experienced. So he’s waiting for the truth, looking for it. Well, that revelation to him took place in 1818. Well then by 1824, a few years later, Martin met Joseph Smith. He knew of his vision. He knew of the gold plates and of the angel Moroni, but he felt he needed a witness that Joseph was the real deal.

  00:08:37 So in the fall of 1827, Martin had set his mind on asking God to show him that Joseph really was indeed God’s chosen prophet and that it was God’s work. So this is a really cool story to me. I hope I don’t get emotional telling it, but he retires to his room, kneels down to pray. He prays, oh Lord God, show me these things concerning the plates Joseph has, and I covenant that if it is thy work and thou wilt show me so, I will put forth my best ability to bring them before the world. Wow. And he says, in the still small voice spoken to the soul, Martin was told that Joseph’s work was the real deal. And that pinnacle moment is critical throughout everything we look at today. It’s the source of a decision that Martin’s ultimately going to have to make. So he places himself under covenant to help Joseph to protect the plates and help publish the book.

  00:09:40 And we need to remember that he even gave Joseph at one point $50 to help him get moved to Harmony. As the translation continued. In February, 1828, Martin went from Palmyra to Harmony to check on Joseph, and it’s during that time when he started helping Joseph translate. He also at one point took some of the hieroglyphs back east to get those verified, and that was a good experience. So he came back just on fire, just excited about the work. So now he has the Lord telling him that this is a prophet he’s working with and that the work they’re doing is legitimate. A few months later, June, we have the painful story of the loss transcript. I think most of us are familiar with that over the years. As I’ve asked my students, what do you remember about Martin Harris? You know, they always bring up the lost manuscript.

  00:10:34 There is so much more to Martin Harris as we’ll see today, so much more. Well, by June, 1829, the translation’s done and Martin has been invited to be one of the three witnesses. Joseph approaches him and encourages him very heavily. Look, Martin, I want you to have this experience, but you’ve been told by the Lord, you need to repent. You need to prepare yourself. If you want to be a witness, we know how that plays out. They go into the woods when I say they, we have Martin Harris and Oliver and David Whitmer and Joseph going into the woods to pray to have this experience and nothing happens. I’ve had prayers like that where nothing happens. He found Martin finally, I’m sure a little bit hesitantly, raised his hand and said, sorry, it’s me, my bad. And he retreats into the woods and goes and has some time with himself and the Lord to repent.

  00:11:30 The angel appears to the other three and shows them the plates and they have a sacred experience. Eventually, Joseph goes and finds Martin and he’s praying in the woods. They try again in prayer to invite the angel to come. The angel does come and gives Martin a little look-see. I think look-see, it’s got to be a reformed Egyptian word just came to me. Martin, of course, is ecstatic. This takes him over the edge. He exclaims tis enough. My eyes have beheld, my eyes have beheld. And he comes into the Whitmer home testifying of what he saw. Martin, he’s received a revelation that the prophet’s the real thing, and now he’s handled the plates. He is energized, he’s on fire. Very exciting time for Martin and for Joseph for that sake.

John Bytheway: 00:12:26 He’s excited about this work, but he’s also trying to keep his marriage together. Here’s his wife who wants some evidence of what’s been going on, and I can understand that. All this time and resources to bring this forward. But it’s kind of like when you look at the family of Lehi and Sariah. There’s a few who ask and who get answers and some who don’t. And it causes all this dissension within the family. And I feel for Martin, I mean, I wonder how many times tried to explain to Lucy what was happening and what he had heard and seen and felt.

Andy Horton: 00:12:59 And now it’s only going to get thicker because now that the translation’s done, they need to find a printer. And part of the deal is, as we’ll see, is that they have to prepay. That money has to come from Martin. No one else has those resources. They have 300 and something acres and he’s going to have to commit. He already made a covenant with the Lord that he would do this. And I don’t know how much of that he’s broken to Lucy yet. I don’t think she comes around. Yeah, tough moment.

Hank Smith: 00:13:29 There’s this statement from Lucy Mack. This is in the Voices of the Restoration we did a couple of weeks ago, John, with Dr. Dirkmaat. I want to read it again. This is after the angel. Martin Harris particularly seemed altogether unable to give vent to his feelings in words. He said, I have now seen an angel from heaven who has of assurity testified of the truth of all that I have heard concerning the record. My eyes have beheld him. I’ve also looked upon the plates and handled them. I can testify of the same to the whole world, but I have received for myself a witness that words cannot express, that no tongue can describe. And I bless God in the sincerity of my soul that he has condescended to make me even me, a witness of the greatness of his work and designs in behalf of the children of men. That’s beautiful. Andy, you said earlier that here’s the one thing he’s known for is the loss of those pages, but why isn’t he known for this? He saw an angel and the expression of no tongue can describe, I bless God in the sincerity of my soul, and then he’s going to go on and make such a sacrifice for the Book of Mormon. Maybe both of you. I could ask you, why do we remember people for their biggest mistakes? Why is that our focus? Doubting Thomas?

Andy Horton: 00:14:51 Yeah, human nature. I don’t know why we do that. I sure don’t want to be remembered for my biggest mistakes. I’ve got plenty of them. And maybe that’s what we’re celebrating in this section is the fact that we can repent and move on. And the Savior surely doesn’t remember our biggest mistakes. Maybe that’s what we’re celebrating.

Hank Smith: 00:15:12 Yeah. Does he even bring it up in Section 19 like, Hey, I need you to do this. Remember, remember you owe me. I saved you from that.

Andy Horton: 00:15:23 There is that moment where he’s reminded of that time when he lost the spirit and you felt in the least degree. You tasted at the time I withdrew my spirit. I’m sure they’re thinking back to that and other things, but I’m grateful the Lord doesn’t hold grudges against us. Grateful for that.

John Bytheway: 00:15:42 And let’s remember the order of events here. Wasn’t this before Martin was baptized and don’t we believe in baptism by immersion for the remission of sins and well, did he have his sins remitted or not? I like to remember that. And also for me it was, I can’t remember how many years ago Hank, when a President Dallin H. Oaks, said something in a talk-Dallin Harris Oaks I might add-when he said, it’s time to let Martin out from under the shadow of that experience. And boy, that was motivating for me. Yeah, this was before he was even baptized and look at what he actually did do. Let’s focus more on that. So I think we’ve talked about it before, but it’s a good reminder.

Hank Smith: 00:16:28 It needs to be talked about again and again. John, I’ve told this story before, Andy, I don’t know if you’ve heard it. On a seminary faculty. I was on years ago. I had a friend, a close friend, his name is Quinn, and Quinn just did funny things that made me laugh. Sometimes very embarrassing for him. He would make a certain mistake and I would laugh and we were close friends. I don’t feel like I was being a bully. I guess I’ll have to ask him. We got a new faculty member a couple of years in and I started to tell them this new faculty member, a story about my friend Quinn. Well, another teacher that I was working with, he stopped me in the middle of my story, right in the very beginning. His name was John. He said, can I talk to you for a quick second? And I said, well, I’m telling this story. He said, how about we talk right now? So I went over to him and he said, it was such a good lesson for me. He said, I think he wants to forget that story. And I said, well, it’s funny.

John Bytheway: 00:17:29 Yeah, but it’s funny.

Hank Smith: 00:17:31 Yeah. And he said, it’s not funny to him. He laughs about it, but I think he wants it gone. So he said, Hank, I hope you’ll never tell that story again. And I went, but it’s funny. So maybe we could give that challenge to somebody who’s listening. If you know a story about someone that they would rather forget, maybe it could be a good thing to make a commitment and say, I’m never going to tell that story again. I’m going ro leave it and leave it alone.

Andy Horton: 00:18:06 From now on, when I think of Martin Harris, I’m going to think of -this is the guy who, I mean spoiler alert, because of him, I’m able to study Mosiah 24, my favorite chapter. I’m able to feel what’s in second Nephi two and second Nephi 9 and Alma 36.

Hank Smith: 00:18:25 When they bury Martin Harris in Clarkson, I believe. They bury him with an original copy of the Book of Mormon in his hand.

Andy Horton: 00:18:33 I didn’t know that. That’s cool.

John Bytheway: 00:18:35 Didn’t we hear he had a Book of Mormon in one hand and a Doctrine of Covenants in the other?

Hank Smith: 00:18:38 I think a Doctrine and Covenants the other. Yeah. Alright, Andy, what do you want to do next?

Andy Horton: 00:18:44 Well, let me tell you. So we’re at a spot now where the Book Mormon is translated, they need to find a printer. I mean, back then you couldn’t just load the transcript into your pony and go down to the Palmyra Kinkos. So they go find the printers that there are. They first go to E.B. Grandin. I think from what I’ve read, for probably social reasons. He declined the offer because of the rumors going around. They approached three other printers. Ultimately they do find one that’s 25 miles away that agrees to it, but again, he’s 25 miles away. Joseph didn’t want to have to deal with those logistics. So he comes back to Grandin and says, look, we have found someone to do it. It’s going to be printed. Ultimately, we would much rather print it closer to home if you’re willing and he’s willing with a catch. Joseph wants 5,000 copies. Grandin says he’ll do that for $3,000. Wow. $3,000. That’s not money Joseph has. And not only that, Grandin wants it upfront. He doesn’t want a down payment. A lot of book printers back then, they would carry the costs. They would go and they would buy the pica, the little letters. They’d buy the paper and everything they needed, and then they would hope that the book sells and that’s when they would get their money back, but not Grandin. He says he wanted all the money up front. That’s a lot to ask.

Hank Smith: 00:20:08 Yeah, that tells you what he thinks was going to happen.

Andy Horton: 00:20:11 And to make it worse, even eventually when he agrees to print, he starts printing other things that derail the Book of Mormon. So here he is printing a project that’s going to come off his presses, but he’s discouraging people from buying it or reading it, telling them it’s a bunch of baloney. Really. It doesn’t seem like a good way to do business, but he’ll have his money so he doesn’t care.

Hank Smith: 00:20:35 Yeah. Sometimes I think Grandin gets more credit than Harris and Grandin, he’s not really taking any risk here. In fact, he’s never printed a book and he’s never going to print another book. He sells the press just a couple of years later.

Andy Horton: 00:20:51 So to make it worse at some point he goes home and he tells Lucy of his plan. Now, like you read from the Come Follow Me manual, they had one of the finest farms in Palmyra and it had taken them years to develop that farm. They’d raised their family there, and so his marriage is already in jeopardy. You can imagine the fear that starts to set in when he says he’s going to have to mortgage half the farm to print the book. Opposition to the Book of Mormon was intense already before its publication. Then we meet this guy named Abner Cole who comes along and he had somehow gained access to the transcript and he was attempting to publish parts of it behind Joseph’s back, and fortunately Joseph was able to put a stop to that by threatening legal action. But there’s things coming at Martin from different directions that are not making this look like it’s going to be a successful print job.

Hank Smith: 00:21:47 Right. You’re going to lose all your money. You’re going to lose your 401k.

Andy Horton: 00:21:51 Yeah, exactly. With these things going on, Martin learns about a planned boycott from the citizens in Palmyra that people are actually telling others not to buy the book.

John Bytheway: 00:22:05 It’s like, okay, Nephi, go feed the family. Okay, well, I just broke my bow.

Hank Smith: 00:22:10 Yeah, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:22:11 How come you’re making it hard?

Hank Smith: 00:22:12 Yeah. How come you’re making it hard?

Andy Horton: 00:22:14 Great question. Yeah. Well, and at this point Martin starts to panic a little. I don’t know who wouldn’t start to panic. He starts to feel like no one’s going to buy the books and he’s going to lose his farm and he panics. He goes back to Joseph, he says, you know what? No one’s going to buy these books. They’re not going to sell. And Joseph says, I think they will sell well. And Martin says, well, I need a commandment. And what he means is I need a revelation.

John Bytheway: 00:22:42 I just like that he persisted with that. I need a commandment. It just reminds me that we call it the Book of Commandments, or we used to call it the Book of Commandments. Well, I want one too. And as we’ve seen others have asked and have received things–like the Whitmers. Here’s Martin Harris, I want one. I want a commandment. Tell me what to do here.

Andy Horton: 00:22:59 This is a moment of decision. We have all faced them. In fact, if I could divert for a second and finish my story about getting called a stake president, it might help here. Because when that call came, let me tell you, we went home from watching my son play basketball and we went in to change our clothes. As we went over to the stake center, we walked in and the general authority, it was an Elder Kevin Duncan, he and the other visiting authority took my wife into the office to interview her. So I’m sitting out in the foyer, this is kind of comical. I’m sitting out in the foyer on these chairs next to the current Stake President. He thinks that I know that I’m being called a Stake President. I’m still not aware of this. I think is like a second round of interviews or maybe they forgot to ask my favorite color. I don’t know what it is. So he says to me, and this is how I find out, the call is coming. He says, so Andy, you’ll have 12 minutes to select counselors.

Hank Smith: 00:24:03 That’s how you found out.

Andy Horton: 00:24:04 I’m not making this up. My first thought was, well, why don’t they have the new guy pick his own? Why am I picking the new stake president? And then it hit me what he meant. The light went on and then the door opens, they invite me in, they extend the calling. Sure enough, 12 minutes.

Hank Smith: 00:24:24 Did you say? Yeah, so-and-so told me outside.

Andy Horton: 00:24:28 Yeah, yeah. And I’ve got the counselors for whoever the new guy is.

Hank Smith: 00:24:31 Right? Yeah.

Andy Horton: 00:24:33 They left. We picked counselors and my wife was a great help. She said, I fell on the floor and looked like I was going to be sick. Well, we went home that night and it gets worse. We eventually went to the adult session of stake conference. Came home from that. As you know, a new stake president would be sustained the next morning in the general session conference. We go home that night and my wife gathers our six children around. They don’t really care or understand what this is about. Their ages went from age four up to about 15. I had six kids. I’m laying on the couch with a pillow literally over my face trying to hide from the world. I can’t express to you the terror. I felt I’d never been in a calling like this or anything similar to it. I felt overwhelmed, underqualified. And my wife gathers the kids out there and says, Hey, you can’t tell anyone this yet, but tomorrow your dad will be sustained as the stake president. And my oldest daughter Keena looks over at me on the couch and she says, dad, there is no way you can do that. Keena, I already know that. You don’t have to tell me that. Thank you for the vote of

John Bytheway: 00:25:45 Confidence.

Andy Horton: 00:25:48 That night I go to bed and they couldn’t sleep. So I pulled out the church handbook, thought, well, I better read what it is stake presidents do.

Hank Smith: 00:25:54 What did they even do?

Andy Horton: 00:25:56 I’ll tell you what, if you ever can’t sleep, that’s what you read is the church handbook. I set it on the nightstand and I fell asleep. The next morning I wake up,

Hank Smith: 00:26:06 Did it hit you again, when you woke up? You’re like, oh, that was a bad dream.

Andy Horton: 00:26:09 Yes, that’s exactly I thought it was. I had the worst nightmare. Then I look over and I see the handbook. I’m like, oh, it was real. I kneel down, I pray. I go in to get ready for the meetings. I get a text from my oldest sister, Laura, and she says, Hey, I’m sorry I can’t be there today. It’s back when we had flip phones. So I am typing to her, Laura, it’s okay. And just so you know, I have no idea how to be a stake president. I don’t know how to do this. The terror and the fear and the dark cloud I mentioned was very real. And I sent that to her and she responded with four words. Four words that I’ve never forgotten that our listeners will be familiar with. Found a couple times in the scriptures. But she said, simply, Be Still and Know.

  00:26:57 What that meant to me was remember, this is not your stake. This entire burden is not on you. You have a loving, living Savior behind you and if you will just turn around and look, he’s right there. And I felt the burden lift. And I realized that’s right. I am under covenant. I am eligible for Revelation. I can do this, I can do this. I’m under covenant. And the burden was gone. Went to the meeting. The people actually were crazy enough to sustain me, and I served for nine years. So when I read section 19, what I am seeing here is Martin is about to have a “be still and know” experience. He is in full on panic mode at this point. He’s feeling the pressure of the world. He’s feeling like his wife is going to have his head on a platter. And I think it’s helpful actually.

  00:27:59 If we look at, let me share with you just a list of some of the specific things that he’s facing, as he’s facing this decision. It’s not a small list. If you’ve ever gone to Helaman five and you’ve read about Lehi and Nephi, they’ve been baptizing converts. They’re in prison with 300 people in this dark cloud hovers over them. This is exactly what Martin’s experiencing because these people, they say, what shall we do that this cloud of darkness may be removed? And the answer is simply, you must repent. You must repent. And the cloud is dispersed and they all get to have this experience with the Savior. There is a series of events that are coming at him from every direction. First of all, he’s literally betting the farm on this project. I call it–he’s going to have to have some farm faith if he’s going to make it through this.

  00:28:52 It comes in different shapes and sizes. But for Martin, his challenge is shaped literally like 151 acres of dirt with a house on it. Sometimes it’s shaped like leaving on a mission or learning a language or sending a child on a mission or receiving a call, going to college. The list is endless or losing a job. But Martin’s is the idea of losing his farm. And then in addition, Lucy has become angry because Joseph wouldn’t let her see the actual plates. And because of the risk of the farm, Lucy had told Martin he was forbidden from paying for any of the costs associated with the translation. In fact, as a side note, I found that Martin actually deeded some 80 acres of his farm to Lucy to make her feel a little better by way of her brother, which he couldn’t sell. Martin couldn’t sell it without her permission. I think that was to give her a little peace of mind. Every printer he approached, which was four in total. Every single printer, told him this was going to be a colossal financial failure. Martin knew that this would require him risking more than half of his assets.

Hank Smith: 00:30:02 The experts are saying, this is not going to work.

Andy Horton: 00:30:05 And then to make it worse, Lucy had reportedly gathered witnesses to testify. So she’s forming a court case to testify against Joseph. She was determined to prove, and I quote that Joseph had knowingly committed fraud by claiming the gold plates existed. Each was willing to testify. Every witness she found was willing to testify that Joseph had admitted to them that the gold plates did not exist. Of course, none of this is real. And he had concocted the whole story to fraudulently rob Martin of his money. It’s right here where this dark cloud is breathing it in, and it is just about more than he can handle. And so I think this is probably about the time that Martin falls back on that covenant he made. And that is where we receive the section 19. It didn’t come immediately, but it came later in the day. And I have to pause here. I don’t know. Imagine if one of your children came to you because Martin’s kind of stomping his feet here. You say, look, I don’t know if I can go through with this unless this happens and this happens. I need some reassurance that my faith is going to pay off here. Demands from a toddler are one thing, but he’s a grown man and it seems like he’s kind of demanding from God a guarantee that things will work out. And I think that would sure be nice wouldn’t it?

Hank Smith: 00:31:32 Yeah, I’m sure there’s listeners out there who are feeling some sort of worldly pressure to not keep their covenants. This isn’t small, this isn’t something that you just go, huh, no big deal. And then we have youth I’m sure out there, a lot of pressure to fit in from friends saying, Hey, look. I remember as a seminary teacher, students would say that they’re under a lot of pressure to cheat. Not the pressure to get answers from people, but the pressure to give answers to people who are their friends. And they’re saying, Hey, come on, come through for me here. It’s not really cheating. So can either of you think of situations today that might look similar? Maybe not to serve a mission? Don’t go. Don’t go. It’s not going to work. Two years, 18 months. That’s a long time.

Andy Horton: 00:32:23 I was thinking back to an experience I had where, this is very simple, but my wife and I, when our kids were very young, we saw off to the side of the road in Provo, we saw four young men who had their fists up. They were just about ready to lean into each other and start throwing fists. And I didn’t know any of them, but I had this prompting to pull over and see if I can help. And come to find out that the two older ones had pushed the two younger ones off the road into the gravel that –the younger ones were on skateboards–and the other two were in a car, had forced ’em off. They’re about to start throwing fists. And that’s when I walked up in my cape, I guess. You kind of say in those moments when it’s tense, the Holy Ghost seems to be right at the level in those moments you feel promptings a little more quickly at times.

  00:33:13 Well, I felt prompted to say of all things, you can probably only get away with this in Provo, Utah, but I said, Hey, are you guys members of the church? And anywhere else they would say, what church are you talking about? But I said, members of the church, meaning the LDS church, and this one tall kid kind of looked at me and he kind of grunted a yes. He raised his hand up and he looked at the dirt and he said yes. He was about to go down a path that was so much something he would not normally do, knocking other kids’ lights out. I remember getting another prompting that said, well, are you, I said it to him, are you a priesthood holder? And the strangest thing happened. A shroud of humility came over this kid and he raised his hand a little bit and he said, I am.

  00:34:03 And I am so sorry. In other words, he’s saying, man, this is not me. I don’t know what just happened. And he turned and he went over and he got in his car. His buddy went with him and they drove off. And now I’m standing here next to these two skateboarders and thinking what just happened? But I saw a kid that was going down this path, but as soon as he was reminded of who he was, he got back on the right path. Like when your mom said, when you were leaving, when you were younger, hey, you remember who you are. And I always wondered, what does she mean? Does she know who I am? Is that my mom? And he remembered I saw it right there in front of me, got back on the right path simply because he had forgotten. He was back on track now.

John Bytheway: 00:34:49 I was thinking of something that Dr. Michael Wilcox said when he was with us, Hank, that Jesus tends to ask you to follow him when the nets are full. Remember him saying that? So Peter has the most amazing catch ever, and that’s when it’s like, leave all that and follow me. And he gave examples of you just got a scholarship to play sports for your favorite university. And the Lord says, go on a mission. You just got the best farm in Palmyra. And the Lord says, finance the printing of this book-that not everybody, including your wife is supporting right now. That’s tough.

Hank Smith: 00:35:27 I have a friend, some friends Jason and Amber Kilgore, who are you know, just, you get those kids raised up, they’re adults, they’re just brand new married, and you’re going to hit this new phase of grandkids. You both are in that phase. I’ve heard it’s pretty good. And here comes a call from the church to go down to Chile and be mission president and your friends look at you like you’re crazy. You, you’ve just hit the time of your life.

John Bytheway: 00:35:55 The nets are full.

Hank Smith: 00:35:57 Yeah, why would you walk away from this? Or anyone who chooses to go on a senior mission, right? The couple that says here, you’re finally at a spot in life where you probably have some bills paid and some time to maybe travel and go do some things. And yet there’s some pressure of why would you do this? Why would you give all this up?

Andy Horton: 00:36:20 Pretty impressive when they do. We see it all the time. And I don’t know if you’ve seen a pattern in the scriptures. It seems like there is a pattern where the Lord really liked to see how we respond when it’s the most difficult. He did invite Peter to come follow me, but he did wait until the nets were full. He could have invited him before that, but he didn’t. He waited.

Hank Smith: 00:36:42 And Peter’s like, well, I got nothing else to do, so I might as well go.

John Bytheway: 00:36:45 I’m going to wait until you have a tough choice to make.

Andy Horton: 00:36:49 Yeah, I think about Gideon in judges when the Lord makes him. Well, it’d be too easy to win the war right now. Let’s reduce your military down to 300 people. That’d be way too easy the other way. Let’s make it so it’s obvious you couldn’t have done it without my help or let’s make it. So Goliath is nine and a half feet tall and David is three foot nothing without armor, without anything. So, so many examples out there.

Hank Smith: 00:37:17 I was going to throw in Shadrach, Meshac, Abed-nego. You’re going to worship this statue or we’re going to put you in that furnace. And how easy would it be just to kneel down and worship the statue? Just do it. Let it pass.

Andy Horton: 00:37:32 Yep. Pretty crazy. So that’s where Martin is. He is in this moment where it really could not be harder. What will he do? Well, he received section 19 and the way I pictured section 19 when I was about 15, 14, maybe my dad one morning pulled me aside and he said, Hey, can I talk to you for a minute? He took me across the street. We had a big park across the street. We went for a walk and he proceeded to tell me something that was really hard to hear. I had a cousin that had taken his life, but my dad took me over there. He put his arm around me and he said, look, this is tough. You’re in a tough moment. And that’s what I feel like the Savior is doing with Section 19 with Martin. He says, I know you’re in a tough situation, but let me introduce myself to you.

  00:38:22 I am Alpha and Omega. It starts out right with the Savior telling him, reminding them, look, this is who I am. And of course, alpha and Omega beginning and end, I will be with you from the beginning of this project to the end of this project. There’s no reason for you to be afraid. I’ve got you. I’ve got your back. If you’ll put some confidence in me. Do you remember when Elder Holland, this was a conference a few years ago when he was in a priesthood meeting. He says, this is a life and death contest we are in. Do you remember this moment in conference? And he says, I’m going to get in your face a little nose to nose with just enough fire in my voice to singe your eyebrows a little. The way coaches do when the game is close and victory means everything. And in this moment with Martin, the game is close. Victory is everything. I love how the section starts. I am Alpha and Omega, Christ the Lord. Yay. Even I am He, the beginning and the end, the Redeemer of the world. And it starts from there, one verse after another in power. So beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:39:27 And verse one maybe is let me give you some perspective. I know what the booksellers are saying. I know what the publishers are saying. I know what your wife is saying. I know what the lawyers are saying, but I’m a little bit bigger than that.

Andy Horton: 00:39:45 Yeah, I’ve often wondered, I wondered if Martin really understands what is at stake. I doubt it. I doubt he has a full understanding of what big of a deal this is for him to follow through. He’s got this farm. I wonder why he has this farm. I wonder why the Lord has helped him develop this farm over the years.

Hank Smith: 00:40:06 Now I wonder if the Lord says, now, look, it weren’t for me you wouldn’t even have this farm to give up.

Andy Horton: 00:40:12 Yeah, it’s beautiful. As I look at these first couple of verses, I do want to clarify-my situation of being called as stake president was very different from Martins. I didn’t have to give up my farm. I didn’t have a farm at the time. We had a pet rabbit. Actually, we did have a pet rabbit, but…

Hank Smith: 00:40:27 You had to give him up.

Andy Horton: 00:40:30 I would’ve gladly given up the pet rabbit. But I did have a problem and I was afraid. And I think that’s where Martin is. I believe what brought peace to me and peace to Martin is the same thing. It is that knowledge that the savior is right there behind you. And sometimes we really just have to turn around and look. I remember one quote that helped me with President Monson. This is April, 2005, when he said, remember that this work is not yours and mine alone. It is the Lord’s work. And when we are on the Lord’s errand, we are entitled to the Lord’s help. Remember that the Lord will shape the back to bear the burden placed upon it. Whether he heard that quote or not, the truth I think is what he felt that the Lord would be with him. And Martin did the very thing he covenanted to do and he mortgaged his farm. So pause for a minute. Picture your house, picture your bedroom. Picture your living room where scriptures sit. I have in my office, at the institute, I have on one shelf, I have four or five different versions of the Book of Mormons sitting there. I have those because of Martin Harris. We can’t ever forget who he is and what he did for us.

Hank Smith: 00:41:43 The year we had last year studying the book of Mormon was magnificent to me. The things that I found, the things that I saw, the things I was taught, and Martin does have something to do with that.

Andy Horton: 00:41:55 Powerful. The Savior kind of points it out in verse, well, verses one and two are so powerful. Verse two, it reminds Martin, look, I faced something very difficult too. I wouldn’t dare compare the two, what the Savior went through compared to what Martin went through, but it’s the savior that makes the comparison throughout this whole section. But he says, I having accomplished and finished the will of him whose I am, even the Father concerning me having done this, that I might subdue all things unto myself. That word finished is critical because Martin, you’ve started this project and I need you to follow my example and be a finisher. You need to follow through. That’s got to be reassuring to him. And I think we’ll start to see some things about Martin and about the Savior here that are very helpful as we go through our lives and face difficult challenges. Subdue all things…

  00:42:51 So that word subdue in verse two is something I looked up. The definition it means to put down or defeat. It can also be defined as to overcome, take control or bring under control. An interesting question to consider here is what is it that Martin is trying to gain control over? And I think simply put, it would just be fear and despair and doubt. And he’s afraid of his wife. He’s afraid of consequences of the book not selling and the list goes on. One of the classes I teach at the Institute is the Divine Gift of Forgiveness based on Elder Andersen’s book. And there is a quote in there. He says that repentance is turning away from our sins and from thinking of the world and turning toward the Savior, that is what he’s missing right now. He just needs to turn towards the Savior and recognize that he’s there with him.

  00:43:44 It means as President Nelson would say, you might recall when he introduced the word metanoia to us and he said that it means conversion or to completely turn around, but to turn around with the Savior. It’s not on your own. The Savior is there the whole time. And so I’m excited to see what the Savior’s going to subdue, what he’s going to bring under control as Martin turns to him. He’s going to put down or defeat these fears. He’s going to help Martin overcome those fears as Martin puts faith in the savior. Powerful stuff.

Hank Smith: 00:44:23 Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:44:23 Yeah. Thank you for bringing up that word. You brought up subdue, but also the word finished. Verse two: I having accomplished and finished the will of Him, and then again in verse 19: Nevertheless, glory be to the Father and I partook and finished. We all remember some of Jesus’s last words on the cross. It is finished. I used to think that he meant my suffering is finished, but the JST adds, it is finished. Thy will is done. Even then he wasn’t even thinking about himself. He was thinking about, I’m going to do the Father’s will and being a finisher. I think that’s a greatest example, is Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith.

Andy Horton: 00:45:07 Powerful. Let’s look at verse three. The Savior says, retaining all power even to the destroying of Satan and his works at the end of the world. I just finished teaching the book of Revelation in institute and boy, I got to witness the end of Revelation when the Savior literally destroy Satan. Casts him out. And then it goes on. It says at that last great day of judgment, which I shall pass upon the inhabitants thereof, judging every man according to his works and deeds, which he has done. And then we get to verse four, this is a beautiful verse. The Savior simplifies the concept of repentance here, at least for me, and surely every man must repent or suffer for I God am endless. I’m guessing, well, probably all three of us have something to say about this verse, but I believe this is a hinge point in our story that the Savior knows Martin is suffering. So he gives him, he makes it very clear you can continue to suffer like you are because at this point he hasn’t mortgaged his farm yet. He’s saying you can continue to suffer and carry this burden, this dark cloud of not sure what to do and fear or you can repent and he simplifies it. It’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 00:46:24 Have you guys ever had an experience where you had an insight that came to you in such a way that you remember where you were sitting or what you were doing? I was sitting in the Marriott Center and Elder Henry B. Eyring gave a talk there and I bet I could take you to the chair where I was sitting because it had that kind of an impact on me. And he talked about Elder A. Theodore Tuttle reading this section of the Doctrine and Covenants in some meeting that he was in. Talking about that verse, and surely every man must repent or suffer. And then this is what today President Eyring said, and this is what stopped me in my tracks. It won’t stop everybody, but for me it did. He said, somehow I had gotten the idea that the choice was between repenting or not, and what the verse says is repent or suffer.

  00:47:17 That was an impactful thing. The choice isn’t should I repent or not. It was repent or suffer. And then he talked about even whatever pain repentance might bring in this life, it was no more than the pain I would face if I did not repent. And yet that later pain could not lift me home. I don’t remember the rest of the talk because I was stuck on that idea. When did I think the choice was should I repent or not? It’s not, it’s repent or suffer and I don’t know about you guys, but for me, I guess I needed that day.

Andy Horton: 00:47:50 That was in his book

John Bytheway: 00:47:51 To Draw Closer to God.

Andy Horton: 00:47:53 Yeah, great story. Fantastic. This is such a clear teaching, repent or suffer. One of the questions I ask my repentance classes, my forgiveness class is true or false: We have to suffer to repent. I think there’s some misunderstandings about that concept. I do believe we sometimes feel and maybe even unfortunately teach in the church that there’s a level of suffering that we have to experience in order to be redeemed. As if our suffering accomplishes something. I don’t think that is true. Elder Christofferson actually said that suffering for sin does not by itself change anything for the better. Now, sin does cause suffering. But in his words, it’s only repentance that leads to a better life, but it’s not the repentance that causes the suffering. It’s the sin that causes the suffering. Elder Andersen shares the example of if someone has to go in for a cancer surgery, although the surgery may be uncomfortable for a bit, the surgery isn’t the villain, the cancer is the villain. Just like repentance is the solution. Somehow, I don’t know how he’s done it, but Satan has managed to make us think that repentance is something to run away from when it’s actually one of the greatest sources of joy that we have access to.

Hank Smith: 00:49:19 John, I don’t remember who it was long time ago on our show, said, if you look at the first four principles and ordinances of the gospel, we celebrate three out of four. We love faith, have faith. We gather the family for baptism, we get everybody around and confirm someone, a member of the church and give ’em the gift of the Holy Ghost and we have food afterwards. And then when it comes to repent, we all back away. Right? We all, what did you do wrong?

John Bytheway: 00:49:51 And Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, remember this famous statement that repentance is perhaps the most hopeful and encouraging word in the Christian vocabulary. And then in the Bible dictionary it has a wonderful definition, a fresh view about God, about oneself and about the world. Who wouldn’t want that? Right?

Andy Horton: 00:50:11 A new perspective.

John Bytheway: 00:50:12 I need to look at everything differently. What an opportunity. That’s part of it.

Andy Horton: 00:50:17 Yeah, brand new perspective. So he makes the options very simple here for Martin. Look, either repent, let me help you in this or continue suffer.

Hank Smith: 00:50:27 Let me help you. I like that.

Andy Horton: 00:50:29 Yeah. That’s verse four. We start to see some words like endless and eternal, and they show up eight or nine times in these verses from eight down through 12. Well, let’s read it. Pay close attention to some of the feeling that comes from some of these words. It’s easy to misinterpret, I think, what the Lord’s teaching us here. He really starts in verse four when he says, I am endless. That is critical to see those three words right there. I, that is the Lord Jesus Christ, I God am endless. He just gave himself a name. In fact, I’m surprised the E isn’t capitalized in my scriptures right here. Wherefore, I revoke not the judgments which I shall pass, but woes shall go forth weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, yay to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment. I chuckle there because clearly that doesn’t mean there’s no end, it just means endless.

Hank Smith: 00:51:34 Yeah, looked it up. I’m pretty sure endless means.

Andy Horton: 00:51:38 Yeah,

Hank Smith: 00:51:39 Yeah. Missing an end less.

Andy Horton: 00:51:41 Yeah, he keeps going. He says, again, it is written. We’ll come back to that again. It is written in eternal damnation. Therefore, it is more expressed than other scriptures that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men. I think we can get a glimpse of what’s happening here. I think the Savior is talking to Martin, very descriptive, and sometimes he talks to us like this to be very motivating, to help us repent, to see what the option is. The alternative from repentance, and he says, I will explain unto you this mystery. Well, what is the mystery? Well, the mystery is what is endless torment? What is eternal damnation. In fact, verse six is a mystery to say it. Not that it won’t end, but it is endless, so that’s a mystery, if you don’t understand. For it is meet unto you to know this, even as mine apostles. I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my rest. For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great, is it! For, behold, I am endless. There it is again, and the punishment for which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Three times there, he’s given himself that title. Wherefore- Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment. Now, it’s real easy to assume what in these verses that it means punishment that never ends sounds horrible.

Hank Smith: 00:53:09 And Andy, when he says, I leave it that way, it is more expressed than other scriptures that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, meaning when you read it that first way, it actually is pretty good for you to think that for a little while, maybe some timing.

Andy Horton: 00:53:25 And I believe there’s some of us who are very fragile and talking like this is too much for us. We don’t need this kind of talk. All you have to say is you should probably change your ways and that will take that individual into the next steps of repentance. There’s others, who probably me sometimes, needs to have it said bluntly that look, if you don’t repent, you’re going to suffer forever. Even though it’s not forever. But he’s telling Martin, look, if you don’t change your ways, then I’m going to call you to repentance here in a way that’s going to shake you down to your boots. And I hope it’s a motivator for you that you’ll change your ways that you’ll see I am with you, I’ve got your back. But let’s talk about what this endless torment means. It helps me to say effective torment instead of endless torment. Endless torment is not one of duration. It’s not torment having no end. It’s a different kind of torment. It’s like I said, qualitative suffering, not quantitative. One of his names is Endless.

Hank Smith: 00:54:31 Andy, could you say almost like purposeful?

Andy Horton: 00:54:34 Yeah, meaningful. If we talk about an infinite atonement, we have to talk about the event and we have to talk about the effects of the atonement. The event has ended and there’s no sin I can commit. That’s going to add to the suffering that the Savior experienced already. Sometimes I hear that get taught –don’t add to his suffering. His suffering is done. It was eternal to cover every sin any of us did or will or could commit. But the event is done, but the effects are eternal. The effects we will always be grateful for. We will always be grateful. We will always appreciate them. There’s a favorite verse. This is such a cool verse to me. It probably doesn’t get seen very often, but in Revelation 4, this is where we’re being shown God’s throne room and for us, God’s throne room is the celestial room.

  00:55:34 It’s the Holy of Holies, which anciently was the second room in the tabernacle. Nowadays, the Holy of Holies would be the celestial room, although some temples have a little room called the Holy of Holies, but for us, for our use today, the Holy of Holies is the Celestial room. That’s God’s throne room. That’s where we strive to end up when we go to the temple. In Revelation 4, verse 10, it’s describing this throne room and there’s 24 high priests in this room. God, the father is in the middle of the room. He’s got these four beasts around him that all represent different things. But these 24 high priests it says in verse 10, the 4 and 20 elders, they fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth forever and ever and cast their crowns before the throne saying, thou art worth oh Lord, to receive glory and honor and power.

  00:56:28 These high priests are dressed in white and they have crown. Which tells me that they have been crowned with eternal life and exaltation. Yet they still take the time to remove that crown in honor and in humility–in honor of the Lord who is sitting there, the Father and the Son who is also present and express their gratitude. That’s because there will never be a time when we stop being grateful for the effects of the atonement, because we will always be living in gratitude for what He did. We’ll be resurrected and receive some sort of eternal glory. But I love the evidence that even though they’re exalted, they never forget that God the Father is their God. Well, this suffering, the Lord’s talking about it’s endless, not in the sense that it will never end, but it’s endless in the type of suffering. In degree, it will be hard to forget, if you will, fostering eternal and endless thoughts of gratitude and offer him that we don’t have to experience it. I love in verse seven where it says that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men altogether for my name’s glory. He’s saying this in a certain way to motivate so we don’t have to experience this type of suffering. Just ask yourself, what did the Savior choose? Repent or suffer. Jesus chose suffer so that we could choose repent. That’s beautiful to me. I don’t remember who I heard say that, but I love that visual.

John Bytheway: 00:58:03 I believe I was 16 years old and I read this for seminary. For me it was just dynamite because I could not conceive of a God who would have people burning to death forever. That just didn’t seem just to me. I can’t think of a worse way to die than burning to death. That didn’t sound right. And I remember reading that and I didn’t say the punishment would have no end. I said it was endless because Endless is my name. It’s one of the reasons. This is one of my favorite sections. And in Book of Mormon class, I like to mention that Alma, the younger, suffered eternal torment for three days. Okay, how’s that possible? How can you have eternal torment for three days?

  00:58:51 The Book of Mormon is hinting at this very thing. It’s because eternal is his name. That’s like Alma 36:12 if you want that. And also we speak of Moses 1:39. This is my work, my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. And I asked my students, what’s the difference? I thought immortality means live forever and so does eternal life live forever. No, eternal life is a quality, not just a duration of life. An eternal is one of his names. So it’s the kind of life that God lives. So that’s the flip side of it. Verse 11, eternal punishment is God’s punishment, but eternal life is the kind of life that he lived. It’s forever, but it’s also a quality of life. I get that right, guys?

Andy Horton: 00:59:32 I think so.

John Bytheway: 00:59:33 So, for me, this is theological dynamite that no, I didn’t say that it would have no end. I said it was endless because the endless is my name. I just think that’s the most amazing. Aren’t we pretty unique in this brethren? President Oaks in a couple of recent talks spoke about section 76 and he said that everybody with very few exceptions will inherit a kingdom of glory. It’s very different view of what God is like. The first vision says God is real and then the rest of the Doctrine and Covenants, and this is what God is like and this section for me tells us something wonderful about what he’s like.

Hank Smith: 01:00:12 Yeah, this is one of the reasons we love the prophet Joseph Smith because the church is born into Protestant America and Protestant America is the vast majority of people are going to suffer in hell for eternity. And what does that tell you God is like? God is a cruel being and you can see why he said all those creeds are an abomination in my sight. Or in other words, that’s not me. They’re saying things about me that aren’t true. They’re saying that I would make someone suffer for eternity. That’s not me. I’m not going to do that. And here comes section 76 that says, actually the vast majority of people are going to heaven. But Andy, I think you’re right. I think we’ve then, maybe as Latter Day Saints we’re a little uncomfortable with that. So we reversed it back and we said, oh no, only the highest degree of the celestial, that’s heaven. Everyone else is going to suffer because they’re not there. We just put it back to where it was before.

Andy Horton: 01:01:15 Yeah, I think you’re right. I think it’s easy to get stuck on taking that literally. I found, this is a quote by Steven Harper. He said, it’s not written that their torment never ends. Scriptures that speak of endless damnation are not well understood. His punishment is endless in the sense that it comes from Him. The eternal Christ gives eternal punishment, not necessarily punishment that lasts forever, but the purposes, effects, and outcomes of his punishment last forever. Though the punishment itself may not,. We would learn lessons we would never forget from that suffering, but again, the Savior chose suffer so we don’t have to. He’s saying, please repent. I don’t want you to experience this. Here he’s talking very frankly. In other situations, he doesn’t need to talk that frankly. Our good friend, Jared Halverson, compares it to bumper bowling. He says sometimes the Savior has to talk on a very justice focused level to get us to wake up.

  01:02:21 And when we lean too far towards justice, we feel like there’s no hope and we’ve gone too far to repent. If we lean too far towards mercy, then we think we don’t need to repent. And so I think the Savior talks within that entire span of truth. He bumps us back and forth to the middle, because when we discover the Savior and we repent on a daily basis, then we use both justice and mercy on healthy levels. It’s balanced and we stay in the middle of the straight and narrow even though we sin, but we use scriptures like this as a reminder that he suffered for us so we don’t need to suffer at that level. But don’t for a minute ever think that I don’t need to suffer. I’ll get a few stripes in heaven. It’ll all be good. No, there is a suffering and God defines it very clearly here. It’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 01:03:15 And effective.

Andy Horton: 01:03:17 Effective suffering. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:03:18 John, do you have anything else before we move on? I really like this topic I can think of. Let’s speak to those who think I’ve done too much. I’ve gone too far.

Andy Horton: 01:03:28 We might want to talk about the term he brings eternal damnation because there’s a couple different forms of the word being damned. Or he says in verse seven, it’s written eternal damnation. This phrase is found elsewhere in scripture only in Mark 3:29 and Doctrine and Covenants 29 where it’s used concerning those who sin against the Holy Ghost will not repent either in this life or the next. But interestingly dammed, D-A-M-M-E-D and damned D-A-M-N-E-D, they don’t mean the same thing. They’re not two forms of the same word. Dammed D-A-M-M-E-D comes from old and middle German. It means to hinder, it comes from a root word, damjan means to hinder like when you build a dam. Okay, you hinder the water. Whereas damned D-A-M-N-E-D comes from the Latin damnnare, which means to inflict injury or loss. Damnare is spelled D-A-M-N-A-R-E, and it means to inflict injury or loss. Hank might say when he is woodworking, I damnare cut my finger off. So dammed and damned, they sound the same. But eternal damnation means you’ve had injury inflicted on you that you will remember forever. What you felt in that suffering. You’ll remember, whereas dammed D-A-M-M-E-D is, you’ve been stopped. You’ve been hindered. So interesting, very different. They don’t mean the same thing.

Hank Smith: 01:05:16 Andy, when you brought up the book of Revelation, you reminded me of a verse in chapter 18 and it seems to fit really well here. This is the Lord speaking, I believe, and he’s looking at what you and I would call the great and spacious building. It’s going to come down. He knows it’s going to come down. This is what it says. I heard another voice from heaven saying, come out of her, my people, lest you share of her sins and receive of her plagues. Doesn’t that sound a little bit like section 19? Please repent because the building’s coming down, I don’t want you to be in there. So when he says repent or suffer, he’s not saying repent or I’m going to cause you to suffer. It’s please come out of that sin because that sin is going to destroy you.

Andy Horton: 01:06:02 Yeah, wow. What a great verse. That goes really well with this. In fact, the next verse: For her sins have reached unto heaven and God has remembered how much I care about Martin. It says, I remembered her iniquities, but I remember I love Martin. I got to go down and talk to this guy. He is forgotten. Could we talk about in verse 15, there’s this word anger all through 13 and 15, you see the word repent three different times in there, maybe more. I command you to repent, keep the commandments that you’ve received by the hand of my servant Joseph Smith, and he’s also received a commandment from the Lord when he covenanted long ago in his bedroom, Martin did. It is by my almighty power that you have received them. Well. Then he says, I command you to repent. Repent lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger and your sufferings be sore–

  01:07:01 How sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. I was reminded of a quote by Elder Maxwell when he’s talking about this anger and it’s easy to think well in that setting, clearly God is going to be angry with me. I’ve always been uncomfortable with that. I have never, ever in my life felt that God was angry with me. That doesn’t sound like him. And Elder Maxwell said, God’s anger is actually kindled, not because we have harmed Him, but because we have harmed ourselves. That is a defensive mechanism there that he’s feeling because we are doing things. This is a loving father trying to prevent us from hurting ourselves. Isn’t that beautiful? When you look at it with prophetic insight there. Story of a loving father trying to prevent further harm.

Hank Smith: 01:07:58 I imagine Andy as stake president, you got to work with those who in membership councils and maybe you shared that with them. Look, this isn’t about God being angry with you. This is God not wanting you to suffer. What did you say there? Anger at you hurting you.

Andy Horton: 01:08:18 Yeah. Not because God’s not mad at you. He’s mad because you’re hurting yourself and he doesn’t want to see that. He’s trying to prevent further suffering. You remind me, Hank bringing that up. I had a lady come into my office. She had committed a pretty serious sin months ago, and as I share this, I want to throw in a little caveat that says, the spirit directs you to handle situations differently with every individual. This outcome may be different with someone else, but she came in, she was so terrified. For some reason she had skipped over her bishop and had come to confess to me, and she was so terrified of the event of confession that she brought her home teacher with her, which is a compliment to that home teacher that she trusted him that much. But the two of them are sitting in my office and she goes on to confess pretty serious sin that she had committed.

  01:09:13 She was under the impression that as soon as she confessed this sin that she would lose her membership in the church. Right there in my office, that I would pronounce, your membership’s gone. Hand me your recommend. That’s it. You’re done. We beat ourselves up. Well, I was prompted to go a completely different direction, which also surprised me, but the prompting told me how much the Savior loves her. I felt prompted to say, you haven’t been to church yet today. Right? This was in the morning on a Sunday, and she says, no, and she’s just weeping, just broken. And I felt prompted to say, look, when you go to church today, I want you to take the sacrament. Which sometimes is the opposite of what you think you might hear, but I felt like she had beat herself up. She had caused herself to suffer so much in the past six or eight months that it was time for that to end, and she needed to feel the love of the Savior.

  01:10:10 I said, I want you to go to church. How long has it been since you took the sacrament? She says, oh, probably 10 months, which she had prescribed herself. I said, I want you to take the sacrament, which she did. But when I said that, she continued to weep, but the weeping shifted a little as she started to feel that there was hope for her. There was mercy and she could repent and be forgiven, and that was step one. She needed to take the sacrament. So the Lord really does talks a talk here that makes him sound mean and angry and tough, but I don’t think that’s the Lord He wants to be seen as. I think this is a motivating scripture. It is saying, Martin, look, you either need to repent or this type of suffering is what you’re going to experience, but I don’t want you to experience that. It angers me to think that you would do that to yourself. Please repent. Please, let’s mortgage your farm. Let’s get the Book of Mormon printed. It’s a beautiful portrayal of loving Father, and then we get into these verses that are not found anywhere else. This is the only place, as I understand that in scripture, where we get a firsthand account of Jesus Christ describing what he went through in the atonement where he suffered for us.

Hank Smith: 01:11:32 Coming up in part two of this episode:

Andy Horton: 01:11:33 I called the missionary department. The missionary department is very good at trusting keys. I said, I know this goes against the Council of the professional, which it’s always good to follow the council of professionals. They know what they’re talking about, but this came from the Lord and I had to put my trust in Him.