John Bytheway: 00:00:00 Keep listening for part two with Dr. Taunalyn Ford, Doctrine and Covenants, sections six through nine. The revelation is a translated version of the record made on parchment by John and hidden up by himself, so did they just see the parchment? Doesn’t say. That’s what we were talking about.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:00:24 Exactly. Again, gift and power of God, but the Urim and Thummim was involved. It was this idea that these are John’s words that were left very similar to the way that we get a New Testament. We get scraps of parchment that are with things written on them. That’s how we get the canon. This is an addition to the canon. This emphasizes right in verse one, the Lord said unto me, “John, my beloved, what desirest thou? For if thou shalt ask what thou wilt, it shall be granted unto you.” The lesson has prompted everyone to say, “What would you ask? What do I want? What are my innermost desires?” Is such an important exercise and to constantly check that. Does anyone want to tell me what they would ask?

John Bytheway: 00:01:29 When you read the book of John, John the Beloved just says, “The disciple that Jesus loved.” I’m always like, “Well, that doesn’t narrow it down very much, does it?” I think I would be thinking about my family, wanting to have my family with me in eternity. What I love about this is in verse eight, “Verily I say unto you, you shall both have according to your desires for you both joy in that which ye have desired.” I love that the Savior didn’t say, “That’s a wrong desire. This one’s a good one.” I love that he was okay with, yeah, that’s a good one too and you can have that. I have in my margin Mary and Martha different desires at the time, but they were both good and that’s okay. I don’t think the Lord’s going to go, “Wrong, wrong, wrong. That was the wrong desire.” Those are both good. You both have joy in that.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:02:25 That is amazing. The fact that he asked for that proves that he will not ask for anything against the Lord’s will. I love Neal A. Maxwell’s quote here, “Therefore, what we insistently desire over time is what we will eventually become and what we will receive in eternity.” This idea of just check our desires, what is it?

John Bytheway: 00:02:51 I also think sometimes we can ask God to educate our desires.

Hank Smith: 00:02:57 Right. I think we can have inspired desires as well.

Hank Smith: 00:03:10 I’m seeing the heading of Section 17 says, “Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and Martin Harris were moved upon by an inspired desire.” I’ve always liked that phrase. I think you’re right, John. The Lord can influence our desires.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:03:26 Speaking of verse eight as well, notice the criteria that God uses there for determining. He says that you both joy in that which you’ve desired. It’s like what he wants for us is that we’re happy. That’s how I feel with my children. Sometimes I haven’t appreciated who they are as individuals and their individual journeys and their choices that they will make and how different those might be from what I had pictured for them, but seeing the joy that they can bring and the joy that they give to others is beyond.

Hank Smith: 00:04:14 Wow. What a great section.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:04:17 In conclusion, the idea of the keys of the kingdom I think are important. He says that Peter is going to be… He does kind of say, “Well, maybe John’s was just super awesome, but you’re going to minister.”

John Bytheway: 00:04:40 He has undertaken a greater work.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:04:43 But then, he says in verse seven, “And I will make thee to minister,” for John and for James, you’re going to be the president in that group and you’re going to have the keys of the ministry so that we’ve got that there, which is so crucial.

Hank Smith: 00:05:02 Taunalyn, take us through sections eight and nine. These are famous sections.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:05:08 Yeah. Section eight has I feel like one of my go-to scriptures here.

John Bytheway: 00:05:18 I want to know which one it is because one of mine is here too.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:05:22 I want to know what is the spirit of revelation and this gives me a lovely definition and guide, a base that I can work from. A little background here, as we’re talking about the keys, section seven comes when they’re debating back and forth whether or not John lives forever. Joseph is able to whip out this revelation with this parchment. Well, I can just imagine another gentleman in the room saying, “Well, wait a minute. Give me that stone. Let me have the rails. I want to make sure that you really saw that parchment.” It’s interesting to me that he’s looking. You can see a little every now and then that Oliver needs a little more assurance and a little more guidance and a little more help.

  00:06:20 I want to add here as we’re talking about keys and authority being restored, I mean you’re going to talk about this next time or coming up and I don’t want to take away anyone’s thunder. I love the quote on the Revelations in Context about Oliver. He may have had doubts. He may have had moments when he experiences seeing John appear to them and restore that Aaronic priesthood, that experience. The quote is, “The experience cemented Oliver’s faith. ‘Where was room for doubt?’ Oliver later wrote of the incidents. Nowhere, uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk.” And I love that.

  00:07:11 I do want to add too just another little fun global history thing, the place where Joseph and Oliver are baptized in the Susquehanna River is also a very important place for Korean church history, if you know that story. Ho Jik Kim or Kim Ho Jik, depending on the way you say the Korean name, he was a very important worker in the government. Supposedly, he’d had all sorts of degrees, but the leader in Korea said, “We want you to go get another one.” He sent him to Cornell to learn how to work on the food supply and how to feed the people in Korea basically.

  00:08:01 While he’s there, he actually meets Latter-day Saints and is introduced to the gospel, is converted. The place that he wants to be baptized is just right up the road in the Susquehanna River. Here’s the key. He said he was baptized by Elder Joseph A. Dye at the time of his baptism. The words that came to him were, when he comes out of the water and he hears, “Feed my sheep.” After the Korean War, he will be instrumental in helping open the church there and in getting through some of the red tape with the government. It’s not just helping feed the people physically but also spiritually.

John Bytheway: 00:08:52 Now, is that one of those global history?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:08:54 That’s global histories. That’s in the global histories, yep.

John Bytheway: 00:08:58 Oh, I know a seminary principal named Jeff Loveridge who’s going to love that story. He served his mission in Korea.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:09:06 Oh, yes.

John Bytheway: 00:09:07 And I drive a Hyundai so it has special meaning to me. No, just kidding, but.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:09:15 Let me give you the date on that. He was baptized on July 29, 1951 at 3:30 PM in the Susquehanna River at the supposed spot of Joseph Smith, the prophet’s baptism. Always 1830 somewhere in the church.

Hank Smith: 00:09:32 And since you said that Taunalyn, I hope everyone will go back to our episode with Dr. Melissa Inouye on Mosiah 18. She talks quite a bit about her good friend Dr. Taunalyn Ford. I think it would be a beautiful thing to connect these two episodes.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:09:48 And Melissa did such an amazing job of trying to help us in the church history department not monopolize things. We’ve got to listen to some stories from the global church. There’s so much to learn.

Hank Smith: 00:10:06 As a historian, I bet she’s really enjoying the time in the spirit world. Of course, she misses her husband and children. As a historian, don’t you think?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:10:18 Well, there has got to be some work that is being done there by her and Kate Holbrook. I think of some of those that we’ve lost in the church history department that have just been powerhouses. So section eight, this of course is we’re continuing the translation and Oliver, we get the word anxious and Oliver Cowdery is told that, “As sure as the Lord liveth, who is your God and your Redeemer, even so sure shall you receive a knowledge of whatsoever things you shall ask in faith, with an honest heart, believing that you shall receive and a knowledge concerning the engravings of old records which are ancient, which contain those parts of my scriptures of which has been spoken by the manifestations of my spirit.” He’s got this opportunity, this blessing, and then he’s explaining the process to him in verse two. “I will tell you in your mind and in your heart by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.”

  00:11:32 We get the cognitive element, we get the spiritual emotional element, and I think that is very, very crucial that there’s a balance in the two and it’s not it’s just feelings and thoughts. It’s think about all the things we do with our mind, all of those ways. Revelation comes in fascinating ways as we move forward, as we read, as we use our mind. There’s the great story of President Nelson when he has been begged to do that heart surgery on the patriarch and he actually sees and receives that revelation in the middle of the surgery. We live way below our privileges. When we limit ourselves to this is the way God talks to us in our feelings, in our thoughts. There’s cognitive ways, there are more emotional feeling ways, but you can expand those.

  00:12:37 It’s going to be as different, the way that God speaks to someone in far off. Let’s go back to Asia because I love it so much. This idea of mind and the heart, and if we don’t limit, he says therefore in verse four, “This is thy gift. Apply unto it. It will deliver you out of your hands of your enemies.” I love verse three. It explains something incredible about the spirit of revelation that this idea of the spirit of revelation of being able to communicate with my children in their minds and their hearts, this is the spirit by which Moses brought the children of Israel through the Red Sea on dry ground. That’s really amazing to me.

  00:13:27 I remember a talk, and I think it was Elder Holland when I was at BYU was talking about this and it’s this idea of you’ve got scary crazy Egyptians behind you. You’ve got a body of water in front of you and you are leading people. What do you do? And it’s as simple as turning to the spirit of revelation that allows you to know what to do, and it’s interesting that he uses his staff or his rod that will divide those waters. We can so apply that when we have angry mobs behind us and impossible jobs before us. It’s as simple as opening mind and heart to the Holy Ghost and to that spirit of revelation, but I don’t want to limit it.

Hank Smith: 00:14:26 He keeps telling Oliver, “Fear not, fear not,” the way you brought that out with Moses. I’m sure Moses was terrified. “I’m in an impossible spot. I’ve got death coming this way. I’ve got death in front of me. I’m scared. What do I do?” And instead of embracing fear, embrace revelation. So it fits Oliver’s situation beautifully.

John Bytheway: 00:14:51 The name of Moses thrown out here in verse three, and then the name of Aaron thrown out in verse six.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:14:58 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:14:58 Wouldn’t you love to hear, “Now, this is not all thy gift for you have another gift.” I would love to hear that. And here’s another one.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:15:07 Yeah, and you get a car.

John Bytheway: 00:15:12 And you think about Moses who said, “Aaron, cast this rod here.” Maybe this is a Moses-Aaron compared to a Joseph-Oliver situation and how they’re going to work together.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:15:29 Right, exactly. I love that. It’s interesting, in preparing revelation book one for publication, Sidney replaces this, so the original translation was sprout and then he puts it with rod and we get eventually this gift of Aaron, and what’s going on here? It’s the same thing, but most likely Oliver is using some sort of a rod, and this is interesting, a green flexible shoot or rod cut from hazel peach or cherry trees were sometimes used as divining rods. So basically, farmers who are desperate to know where water is, they would use these and this is still used in some areas. This is where we see culture when we hear the phrase the past is a foreign country, they do things differently there. This is where we see that Joseph and Oliver are coming from a time that is closer to the day of enchantment and not the day of enlightenment.

  00:16:46 Sometimes we have to look back and realize that these people are from a different day. This is a day where Christianity and magic mixed in this world. God worked with that, with Joseph’s stone. We see that. It’s the same opportunity that was given there with this rod. Sometimes our minds in the 21st century or in the 20th century or even Sidney Rigdon was saying, “Oh, maybe that’s a little too, we sound like hicks. Let’s fix that.” The key here is we live and breathe and move in culture and the Lord is going to use that and he is going to speak to us through that culture.

  00:17:41 I love section 90:11 is one of my favorites as we’re writing this book on mission in the church, “For it shall come to pass in that day, that every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue, and in his own language.” Those two, making that differentiation between tongue and language, I think often about culture and translation of culture, how crucial that is. God was using whatever gifts, whatever way he was receiving this direction. God was going to work with that and we see that with Joseph. He becomes a prophet. It’s not about seeking for treasures and I think about that. We joked about seek not for riches, but for wisdom. It’s the same thing, we’re going to redirect these things away from the monetary or the worldly into the spiritual.

Hank Smith: 00:18:46 I love what you said there, Taunalyn, that the Lord will take you where you are. I’ll speak the language that you speak right now. A very good teacher can take someone from where they are and say, “Okay, where are you exactly? Here’s where I want you to be.” Now, what are the steps? I need to speak your language to get you to eventually come to speak this language. The Lord is an excellent, excellent teacher. He will take us where we are. For me, when I was younger, the Lord spoke to me through sports and I started to learn life’s lessons. My dad was a golf professional. That was his language. That’s how he taught us, but eventually those lessons go away from that original language into much more spiritual connecting experiences. John, I know that you learned lessons through golf, through acne, through…

John Bytheway: 00:19:46 They were written all over my face.

Hank Smith: 00:19:49 John, don’t you think that’s an important thing to let young people know God will meet you where you are. He won’t leave you where you are, but he’ll meet you where you are? With Joseph, it might’ve been seer stones and treasure. With Oliver, it might’ve been divining rods, but look what they both end up becoming.

John Bytheway: 00:20:07 One of the things that always impresses me is how many agricultural metaphors and parables there are because that’s-

Hank Smith: 00:20:14 The language.

John Bytheway: 00:20:15 … what everybody did. Everybody knew about seeds and cultivating seeds and taking care of them and everybody loved the harvest. Boy, if God wants to really get through to people, there’s a famine, there’s a way to do that. It’s so consistent throughout the scriptures. We’ve already read it. The field is white already to harvest. We’ve read it in this section. It was still mostly agricultural, I suppose.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:20:42 And that which you sow you shall also reap. He also says in verse seven, “There’s no other power save the power of God that can cause this gift of Aaron to be with you.” Reading just recently in Moroni 10, “All good gifts come from me and doubt not it’s the gift of God.” I love this quote by one more from Steve Harper. He says, “As intended, little is known about this rod or this sprout or this gift of Aaron,” and he says, “Little is known about it in our skeptical generation.” Then he says, “Perhaps the equally marvelous, supernal gift of the Holy Ghost remains nearly as mysterious. It is remarkably available yet few apply unto it as the revelation commands.”

Hank Smith: 00:21:41 That’s wonderful, and we’ll link all of these things that Taunalyn’s been sharing with us in our show notes. Go to followhim.co and you’ll find all of it there. Are we ready for our last section, Taunalyn?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:21:54 Yeah. I want to just do one more though, warm up to it. Verse 11 in chapter 8, it does say, “Ask that you may know the mysteries of God and that you may translate and receive knowledge from all those ancient records which have been hid up, which are sacred and according to our faith, and according to your faith it shall be done and behold it is I that has spoken.”

John Bytheway: 00:22:20 Could I go back to verse two? I feel like that part about mind and heart as you just said, we’re applying unto the gift, we’re trying to learn how the Spirit works with us. We’re trying to learn to hear him. I love that both of those are mentioned. I think that sometimes because so many things make sense in the gospel, we want everything to make sense and some things don’t. But for the most part I’ll tell you in your mind, it’ll make sense and in your heart. That mind and heart combination I think is helpful. We know burning in the bosom, that’s a heart thing, but we know many more times we’ve already read it, I will enlighten your mind. I love the combination of both of those there. That’s been very helpful to me.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:23:11 I like that too.

Hank Smith: 00:23:12 That’s a beautiful combination that needs to be used.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:23:16 Acknowledging when it happens and recording that is so crucial too. There are times where Joseph said, “When you feel that revelation, if you will acknowledge that, it will come more frequently to you.” The more we acknowledge that. As we go into section nine, this is where we get a failed attempt. Why don’t you read that, John, first for us?

John Bytheway: 00:23:46 First one. “Behold I say unto you, my son, that because you did not translate according to that which you desired of me and did commence again to write for my servant Joseph Smith Jr., even so I would that you should continue until you have finished this record, which I have entrusted unto him.”

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:24:05 Okay, so he’s been demoted graciously and it’s really a matter of it’s working better this way. He says in verse two, “I have other records and we’re going to continue this translation process.” “Be patient,” verse three, “for it is wisdom in me. It is not expedient that you should translate at this present time.” Sometimes we don’t receive what we ask for because it’s not expedient. We get some instructions. He’s also learning from this. Whenever the Lord says, “You have a gift,” I keep thinking about some of the things in my life that I think at first glance are so not gifts and I think particularly about some things that I’ve experienced as far as depression or anxiety. I’ve seen people that have struggled with OCD or other kind of neurodivergent brains. Those ironically can become gifts. Ways that those people who have different kinds of brains have to slow down and they are able to receive things in different ways. They’re able to feel things in different ways and to communicate.

  00:25:34 I mean, some of the best scientists that have made great discoveries, artists have been with these seeming limitations or oppositions, thorn in the flesh, if we go back to Paul. In verse five, he’s going to explain, “Behold, it’s because you didn’t continue as you commenced like you started,” but it’s almost like he stopped looking directly at the Lord. There was something in the faith there. He says, “Do not murmur,” in verse six, “it’s wisdom that I’ve dealt with you.” In verse seven, this is what we constantly will quote, “Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me.”

  00:26:22 And that verse 11, He said, “You’ve got to ask me,” and it seems that that’s all he did is he asked. And I think we all suffer sometimes from the limitations that we have when we only ask or barely ask. The idea of prayer as being some sort of a celestial vending machine that we just sit down and ask versus that we actually are seeking with all of our heart in our asking, and then our actions reflect what we have asked for in that translation process.

  00:27:08 Verse eight, “Behold, I say unto you, you must study it out in your mind and then ask me if it be right.” We’re opening up some dialogue here. And then, “I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you. Therefore, you shall feel that it is right.” And President Oaks gives us a great comfort on this in one of the talks that he gives us in, don’t get super upset if you haven’t felt the burning in the bosom. So it might be different for you. He’s talking to Oliver sometimes directly, but there’s going to be some way that you’re going to feel, you’re going to know and feel that something is right.

  00:27:49 Verse eight says we are supposed to use our brains, our minds. We are supposed to go out and do stuff. Don’t just sit there and don’t forget what you’re asking for. Do something about it. Open up a dialogue. Ask me if it be right. And in that dialogue, sometimes the Lord is going to speak to us through somebody else, through something we read, through something we do. Just keep moving and let’s keep having that dialogue and you’re going to feel that it’s right.

  00:28:23 But in verse nine, if you don’t have these kinds of feelings or you have a stupor of thought, often people think of stupid and stupor, I am stupider for having thought of that idea. Maybe it’s not the good answer, but you’ll forget the thing that’s wrong and you cannot write that which is sacred. So this is obviously applying to this process of translation, that the Lord still cares that he’s learning this process of translation right, but he’s not going to do it this time because he says it was expedient at first, “But you feared,” verse 11, fear was the key to his in the end losing that, “but the time is past and it’s not expedient,” so just get going on this translation. You’re going to get this done in three months.

Hank Smith: 00:29:17 I noticed in previous revelations, I mean this all came really in a month. This has been quite a month for Oliver. He meets Joseph Smith and all this happens, but twice he’s been told to trifle not and then the Lord says, “You took no thought save it were to ask me.” And I wonder if that word trifle here could be that, you know how something is used like a small amount of something? He seemed to pay the merest trifle, something that’s not really super important. So I wonder if that’s maybe what you took no thought save it were to ask me, little.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:29:55 Yeah, like on the prayer meter, your prayer was like, it wasn’t getting there, the intenso meter.

Hank Smith: 00:30:03 John always says, “You don’t get Google-speed answers to golden questions.” If this is something you really want, let’s take some time on it.

John Bytheway: 00:30:14 Elder Bednar talked about the process of revelation that comes slowly like the rising of the sun is more common than a light turned on all at once. You’ve heard that quotation. Think in the process of studying scriptures, we study, we ponder, we think about it in our minds and things open up to us, but it’s not quick. The hard part about this is James 1:5 says, “If any of you lack wisdom, just ask.” Well, he did and he got this.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:30:46 And it was a process. I think we get a little more explanation when he says in verse 11, it was expedient when you commenced, but the time’s past it’s no big enchilada, like we’re good, let’s move on. Then I love how he says, “For do you not behold that I have given unto my servant Joseph sufficient strength whereby it is made up?” In other words, don’t worry about the time that you lost. It’s no problem. I don’t condemn either of you. You made this trial, we’re good. I constantly think about my heavenly parents are the masters of damage control. I do stupid things. They can make amazing things out of my stupidity. I guess I shouldn’t try to do stupid things, but when I am a mortal having a mortal experience, the Lord can take my offering and it’s enough.

Hank Smith: 00:31:49 I’m going to quote you on that, Taunalyn. The Lord is the master of damage control.

John Bytheway: 00:31:54 Damage control because all we do is go around damaging stuff.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:31:58 We do. We make a mess, but that’s what life is supposed to be. That’s what the Atonement is about is allowing us to make messes and not be condemned for them, to learn from them.

John Bytheway: 00:32:11 I like verse four, the clarity, “Behold the work which you are called to do is to write for my servant Joseph.” Now go to verse 14, “Stand fast in the work wherewith I have called you.” Different times in our lives, we have different callings, do what you are called to do. I’m comparing this now to our individual callings in our wards or stakes or whatever, but I think that’s really interesting. To stand fast in the work which I have called you. The hair of your head should not be lost. You should be lifted up at the last day. So that’s a nice reminder of you don’t have to do everything, do what you’re called to do.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:32:51 Yeah, and I like this. As we’re talking about these promises to Oliver, I think it’s important to think about what did happen to Oliver. He’s going to have this moment where he’s going to struggle and be excommunicated in 1838, we’re going to come to that, but he’s going to come back in 1848. He is going to continue to the end in supporting Joseph even though there’s some bumps.

  00:33:19 I like to think too about where are the women in this story? Did Oliver Cowdery marry anyone? And yes, indeed he did. He marries Elizabeth Ann Whitmer. Lots of Whitmers in this story. She was David Whitmer’s great-granddaughter, Helen Van Cleave Blankmeyer described Elizabeth as a tiny bird-like creature, sympathetic, practical, resourceful, and a fountain of fun. And evidently, Elizabeth gave birth to six children. One of those children lived to maturity, one. So if you can imagine what’s going on in the background of Oliver’s life and Elizabeth’s life, they’re losing all of these children.

John Bytheway: 00:34:10 Hank, are you related because you’re kind of a fountain of fun?

Hank Smith: 00:34:13 Oh, thanks, John. That was my nickname in high school.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:34:21 I hope I have a T-shirt, I’m a fountain of fun.

Hank Smith: 00:34:22 Fountain of fun, especially when you scripturecise.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:34:28 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:34:29 I’m going to use that forever.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:34:32 I think my very, very favorite quote that I keep wanting to come to is by Neal A. Maxwell. He says that discipleship requires all of us to translate doctrines, covenants, ordinances, and teachings into improved personal behavior. How classic is that? I love that. We are to translate doctrines, covenants, ordinances, and teachings into improved personal behavior. Otherwise, we may be doctrinally rich but end up developmentally poor. Isn’t that amazing? Then, he says, “The celestial attributes such as love, patience, mercy, meekness, and submissiveness embody what we are to become. They’re not just a litany of qualities to be recited. Awareness of them, even articulate awareness without their application will not do. Furthermore, these same attributes be developed in the abstract. The relevant experiences are required even when you and I would try to avoid them.” Some of those gifts that we want to avoid in life are those gifts that will help us to translate ourselves.

John Bytheway: 00:35:52 We’ve gone from teach me all that I must know, to teach me all that I must do, to teach me all that I must be, and it’s almost like we’re supposed to become all this stuff we’re studying.

Hank Smith: 00:36:09 Taunalyn, I’ve noticed in these sections, and maybe both of you can comment on this, that we can get to know the Lord through these revelations and he seems to be both loving, direct, and has some pretty high expectations. He doesn’t say, “You are terrible people. You’re really so far behind.” He says, “Okay, let’s try this. Oh, you didn’t do very well. That’s okay. Let’s try again. Oh, you really did not do well.” Maybe we want the Lord to be a cheerleader in the game of life, but he’s more like a coach where he’s going to tell us, “That was not good and yes, the time has passed.” You almost want him to say in section nine, “Oh, the time isn’t passed. It’s okay. Let’s try again.”

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:37:00 There’s some times where the choices we make are going to have some consequences that we’re going to need to be accountable for and learn from. I guess maybe because it’s our family motto is I love you no matter what. I want God to be able to say I love you no matter what, but you can do better. Right?

Hank Smith: 00:37:20 It’s more of God saying, it’s not like, oh, I’m happy with whatever you do. I love you no matter what.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:37:26 But I want more for you.

Hank Smith: 00:37:29 We’ve got work to do here guys. Come on, let’s try this out.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:37:33 That’s where we know that he loves us is because he wants us to become. He doesn’t want us to stay as is.

Hank Smith: 00:37:43 Taunalyn, we have really gotten into Oliver’s personal life here. I don’t know if I would feel comfortable having the Lord pointing out some things that I’m doing right and wrong right here in canonized scripture. If you don’t mind, I would love to come back to something you said earlier about being a divorced member of the church. We have listeners, I am certain, all over who have gone through a divorce, yet I don’t know if it’s something we talk about enough. I’m not sure why. Maybe I’m wrong about that. Maybe I’m just not in the right circles, but would you mind speaking to our listeners who are hurting through because of divorce? You hear someone so faithful, so educated that has been through this same thing. What would you say to our listeners out there who are hurting?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:38:40 Well, I certainly can’t be the poster child for how to do divorce correctly, but I do constantly say if we are going to have the principle of eternal marriage, we have to be able to think about celestial divorce. What does that look like for the eternities and how do you treat one another and it takes time? I’m still working through that, but there are times where the wisest course of action is to make that choice.

  00:39:18 I know that there are particularly women who sometimes are almost culturally called upon to stay in a marriage that is difficult or even marriages where there’s abuse. That is not something that the Lord wants for his daughters or sons. It’s not what we want to celebrate in our church necessarily, but also we should never villainize it. This is part of the path. This is part of the journey and I think the most important thing is to try in the path of receiving revelation that the guidance that you receive as far as the choices that you make in your life are between you and the Lord and that it’s important often to be able to shut down voices that might question your revelation.

  00:40:28 Priesthood leaders were so instrumental, so important to me and so wise in my journey. There were other times where I had to shut down voices and mostly they were just in my own head. It was like, what do they think about me? What do they think? We just need to trust each other, trust that we are receiving revelation from our father in heaven and doing our best, and we can support each other and encourage instead of question. Be curious instead of judgmental. I remember going through this process. I was blessed by so many messages from President Nelson and particularly messages about putting conflict away and striving for peace. I just believe that we are a people who are called to be a people of peace and to create Zion. We started out here when Oliver is called to be part of this work of establishing Zion. We’re still doing that today and we can’t do that with contention and divisions. I just really believe in the Lord and his ability to heal and to create connection and to help us translate the ugliness of our lives into the beauty of becoming more like him.

Hank Smith: 00:42:10 Wow. That is beautiful. I remember President Nelson saying, I’m sure you both remember this, peacemakers needed, “If a couple in your ward gets divorced or a young missionary returns home early or a teenager doubts his testimony, they do not need your judgment. They need to experience the pure love of Jesus Christ reflected in your words and actions.” We need to put that in vinyl, in every church, in every chapel.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:42:40 You can buy stickers for your big drink holders at the church history library.

Hank Smith: 00:42:49 Really?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:42:50 There was like this Mormon saying, it was like the Mormon saying is, does anyone know what this is? It’s mind your own business. That used to literally be like people would cross-stitch a sampler with mind your own business. This used to be like think celestial, mind your own business.

Hank Smith: 00:43:15 I think I’ve heard that from Brigham Young actually.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:43:17 Yeah. I have not done enough research on it, but I do have one of those stickers on one of my large mugs.

Hank Smith: 00:43:25 It was. It was the Mormon Creed.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:43:28 The Mormon Creed, that’s it. It’s the Mormon Creed. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:43:31 I remember. Mind your own business. Saints will observe this. All others ought to. It was the Mormon Creed. I remember now.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:43:41 Yes, and my amazing colleague who was just hired, she was my intern in the summer and she just got hired as a research assistant, but she’s from South Africa and she found that Mormon Creed literally cross-stitched in South Africa.

Hank Smith: 00:44:00 I love that. John, we’re going to have to bring that back.

John Bytheway: 00:44:02 It speaks to what we’ve talked about, the culture. We’re talking about it and laughing because it’s such a scolding thing to say now.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:44:11 I always start all of my world religions lessons by dropping the name of Mother Teresa. I know her. I met her in Calcutta and spent time with her.

John Bytheway: 00:44:23 No kidding.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:44:24 It’s true. That’s how I got into doing what I’m doing is because I visited India with the ambassadors years and years ago, but we literally spent a day with Mother Teresa and she was so impressed with the group that she said, “Would you like to go to my orphanages?” And she climbed on our bus with us and took us to her orphanages and then she took us to her homes for the dying, her hospice, and then she said, “Would you like to sing to Jesus?” And we were able to go and sing I Am a Child of God in her sanctuary. I love her quote about if you judge people, you don’t have time to love them. And watching her minister as the Savior would to everyone in Calcutta regardless of race, creed, caste.

John Bytheway: 00:45:17 Wow. I’d like to end up where she is because I think she’s going to be right there.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:45:25 One thing that does help me, I was very lonely initially on Friday night date nights, so I decided that I was going to date Jesus. I was going to just go to the temple. I was going to work in the temple, so I became a temple worker. In that process, I realized really those promises where we are symbolically sealed. He is the Lord, our God, our husband for all of us. That metaphor of Christ as husband has been so powerful for me, knowing that those sealing ordinances, those covenants, those blessings and privileges, those opportunities to have the Spirit in my home. I think President Oaks has done such a fantastic job of speaking about this, about how women who don’t have a companion in their home still experience that power of the priesthood in their home through those temple covenants and through all of the covenants that we make under the priesthood.

  00:46:45 It’s scary because in many ways I have been marginalized in my work in India because I chose to divorce my husband. The idea is that you should stay, you’re expected to. That brings shame to the family. That divorce is a terrible thing. It’s also a privilege in many ways to be able to get a divorce. I’m aware of that too, that I have something of a privilege here that other women might not have. I’m sensitive to that.

Hank Smith: 00:47:27 Sometimes we get the idea, Taunalyn, that being Christian means taking abuse and not doing anything about it. And if you read the New Testament, Jesus had firm boundaries. When Nazareth, his hometown, tried to kill him, he never returned. When Peter said things that were out of line, he let him know. When Herod killed his cousin, John the Baptist, Jesus refused to speak to him. The idea that being a Christian means, well, you just need to take this abuse, that is the exact opposite of Christlike.

John Bytheway: 00:48:09 I’m glad you brought up peacemakers wanted. After that talk, our inspired bishop asked everybody in the ward to read it again slowly and my family has been touched by divorce as well, and you just don’t know. I love that line. They don’t need our judgment, they need to experience the pure love of Christ. Having served as a bishop, there’s just things that nobody knows. I’m really grateful, this is going to sound strange maybe, but I’m really grateful that we have an incident early in the Book of Mormon where Nephi just says, “You know what? We have to leave. It’s the right thing to do.”

Hank Smith: 00:48:54 Yeah. The Lord tells him, “Take and depart.”

John Bytheway: 00:48:58 And just like you’re saying, Hank, it’s not, “Well stay there.” It’s, “Nope. No.” There comes a time when you need to go, and in a way I’m grateful that we have that precedent there because I’m sure it was heartbreaking to Nephi to not be able to keep the family together. He’s probably thinking, I’ve got to face my father Lehi one day, but nope, compromise is not possible. You need to go.

Hank Smith: 00:49:21 And we find out later, he’s blamed for it. When they go to talk to the Lamanites, “Oh, we still hate you for what you did.”

John Bytheway: 00:49:29 We were wronged.

Hank Smith: 00:49:30 We were wronged.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:49:32 I really appreciate that, John, because that stood out to me this last time through the Book of Mormon was that we want eternal families. We want to stay together, but there are times where it is not healthy, that it’s a better choice.

John Bytheway: 00:49:48 It’s not the ideal choice, but it’s better. You don’t have to stay and endure abuse. The Lord has never asked us to.

Hank Smith: 00:49:56 And it’s not kind to the abuser to enable that. Taunalyn, thank you for letting us venture into that. I mean, you and Oliver, we both got into your personal life. When you said we’re all Oli C., we really took it to you.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:50:13 We are Oli C.

John Bytheway: 00:50:13 You’re close with Oli C.

Hank Smith: 00:50:17 Yeah. Hey, Taunalyn, just quickly, one last question. For someone who’s studied church history for quite a while, you don’t look very old, but it’s been a couple of decades of studying church history. I think our listeners wonder, is Joseph Smith really who I think he is because I hear this from this person and from this website and this from this anti-Joseph podcast, here’s someone who’s read as much as anybody else. Is this really the restoration? Is the Lord really in this?

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:50:51 I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to answer that because I am so grateful for the sacrifices that Joseph and Emma made and all of those actors that we get to see some of their dirty laundry and their weaknesses. One of my favorite things that Melissa Inouye ever wrote is in her book Sacred Struggle, she talks about redeeming the dead. She talks about how when we deal with history, we are dealing with humans, and humans make mistakes.

  00:51:31 So when I look at Joseph, there’s times where I look close up and I think there is no way that Joseph could have made up this book. There is just no way. It is God is here or it’s Satan, which is very binary thinking. So we have to back up and have that overview effect where Sister Runia talked about where we see the bigger picture. So there’s times with Joseph where I need to back up a little bit and say, Okay, this is what I know about Joseph Smith because in this thing that I just read that he said to this other person in history, doesn’t sound like Jesus or the way that he took the principle of plural marriage and decided to apply it.

  00:52:31 Because having experienced some heartbreak, these women who are experiencing this principle for the first time are feeling some deep, deep pain. If we take away, if we try to brush over it and just like, let’s not talk about that polygamy thing, let’s not talk about it… We ruin it because that’s where it’s so amazing that these human beings did what they did. It’s absolutely astounding. It’s astounding to me that people followed Joseph, that you see that Joseph knew he was a prophet, and the many times think, oh, wow, I’m amazed at just a simple thing like the idea of matter is not created or made. There’s just moments where you go, “Oh, he’s a prophet.” And then, there’s other times where I go, he is a human man for sure. If we can leave space for both of those things, we are doing ourselves a lot more of a favor than if we try to just make him perfect. That’s the problem is we’ve set up this false dichotomy that Joseph is perfect and we’ve forgotten that no, he is a man and that’s what makes it so miraculous.

Hank Smith: 00:53:55 That’s awesome. And what did Melissa say about redeeming the dead? Did you-

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:53:59 That’s right. So she said, for instance, if you think about some of the things that maybe happened in church history like the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Instead of, so she relates this to actually experience that she had in her chemotherapy treatment when she was taking medicine and she had to take very expensive medicine that she had to get down and she couldn’t keep it down. She said, “My dear husband, who is just the best thing in my life,” he didn’t sit there and leave the throw up. He cleaned it up. He helped her pull out the medicine that she needed to take, and she took it. She said he didn’t leave it there on the kitchen table so that every dinner we would sit down and we would look at it and say, oh, or he didn’t hide it. So it’s this idea that we are doing things now and saying things now that people in the future will say are ridiculous. We’re hicks, Rita.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:54:59 What are we doing? But that doesn’t mean that we are not progressing. She talked about how prophets like Brigham Young, I think about my niece who actually had an experience with one of our ancestors who she was sure she felt him in her life, his progression and where he is today and how different that is, and this idea that we believe that people can progress and repent and the principle of redemption of the dead where we do this proxy work for them. It’s the same thing that we can do as we’re going through history. Instead of leaving it there, we can actually say, “Wow, what can we do?”

Hank Smith: 00:55:49 Well, I love this idea, John. I’ve never thought about this. Redeem the dead. What a thought.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:55:57 She’s talking about it too a little bit with Brother Brigham and some of the hurtful things that he said in the past. She says, “If this is true, Brother Brigham now heartily rejects hurtful things he said in the past, and bellows with rage every time a fellow Latter-day Saint tries to justify those ugly words as the eternal voice of God,” not 1850s Brigham with some of the things he said in that moment, but she says, “Cleaning up someone else’s vomit is the ultimate act of love.” She said that when we love our ancestors, we help them clean up their mess when they can’t do it themselves. The nature of human experience is that there are some kinds of change that take decades, even centuries to complete. No one generation is ever going to perceive all the biggest problems and find all the best answers. No one can be expected to be all things to all people in all eras. That’s part of the ongoing restoration is that we learn from each other and we go forward. This is her book, Sacred Struggle.

John Bytheway: 00:57:02 I love the idea of redeeming the dead, meaning reframing their reputation, remembering their best.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:57:12 She was a master of metaphor. The ability to just relate things like that.

Hank Smith: 00:57:18 The spirit of that is beautiful.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:57:21 That’s translation. That’s being able to translate her own sacred struggles. The danger is in not looking enough. The more you look, the more you see, the more you understand that this is the Lord’s work, that he is in it. There have been mistakes and there will continue to be mistakes that people make. It doesn’t matter. As God has said, “I’m going to be okay. I have sufficient strength whereby it is made up. I’m going to fix it.” It’s his work.

Hank Smith: 00:57:55 The Lord is the master of damage control, Dr. Taunalyn Ford.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:58:02 And it’s interesting. I do want to conclude with one other thing is being able to go to India as that young college student with the young ambassadors. I met a few, very few members at that time, but I was so inspired by them at that time, and now there are thousands more, and I have been able to be a witness of God’s work there and it is phenomenal. It’s really, really inspiring and I think that’s what we find in as we look at the global history, that the Lord’s work continues everywhere and it will continue until it has reached every climb and sounded in every ear.

Hank Smith: 00:58:44 The great Jehovah shall say, “The work is done.” Taunalyn, thank you for spending your time and giving us your expertise.

Dr. Taunalyn Ford: 00:58:54 Absolutely. This is delightful. What a great opportunity. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:58:57 I have been so uplifted today, so touched many times and had my mind expanded. You can tell when the Lord is teaching you through a fantastic teacher. Those of you who would like to, come on to YouTube or come to our website, followhim.co, and leave a comment there on YouTube or send us a message if you want to let Taunalyn, Dr. Ford know how you felt today. We can make sure she gets all those messages. This was a beautiful, beautiful experience.

  00:59:33 With that, we want to thank Dr. Taunalyn Ford for her time today. We want to thank our executive producer Shannon Sorensen, our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and every episode we remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week. We’re continuing on to sections 10 and 11 on followHIM. Today’s show notes and transcript are on our website, followhim.co. That’s followihm.co. Of course, none of this could happen without our production team, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, Amelia Kabwika, and Annabelle Sorensen.