Hank Smith: 00:03 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of FollowHIM. My name’s Hank Smith. I’m your host. I’m here with the awesome John Bytheway. Welcome, John.

John Bytheway: 00:11 Thank you.

Hank Smith: 00:12 It’s a good day here at FollowHIM. Hey, John, we’re going to continue in these letters from Paul. We’re once again in 1 Corinthians. Last week with Dr. Bell, and here we are again in another lesson in 1 Corinthians. What are you learning about Paul so far? We’ve been through two of his epistles. What are you seeing? What have you learned?

John Bytheway: 00:32 I am so dazzled by Paul. We hear the phrase sometimes, “I’d like to be an instrument in the Lord’s hands.” Well, I think Paul was like a Swiss army knife because he could do anything. He could speak different languages.

  00:45 He could talk the Torah with a group of Jews and convince them or try to convince them that the Messiah is Jesus. And then, he could turn and talk to the Greeks and quote philosophers and stay toe to toe with them. He was amazing. And I am really loving learning about Paul here.

Hank Smith: 01:04 Yeah. I’ve noticed, too, John, how many problems he’s dealing with in these separate branches as we’re going through. Man, it’s not an easy go for him as the leader. I just don’t think I’d thought of that before, how many problems he was dealing with.

  01:20 He’s not just teaching doctrine. He’s trying to, “Okay, we got to be nice to each other. We got to get along. We have to find a way for Jews and Gentiles to be in this together.” John, we’re joined by a wonderful scholar and friend, Mary Jane Woodger.

  01:36 Mary Jane, what are we looking forward to today in this 1 Corinthians 8 through 13 lesson?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 01:43 Well, when I look at Corinthians, as you just said, I look at the problems that that branch was going through, that Paul is dealing with, as what I like to call an area authority. I’ve gone through and put it in modern terms.

  01:59 If you had a new branch president and there’s an area authority and the branch president writes and says, “Give me some advice on how to handle these issues, and maybe I can just go through those. Members are suing each other in civil court.”

  02:12 “They’re frequently going to social clubs where they’re serving stuff that isn’t exactly word of wisdom. Intoxicated men are handling the ordinance of the sacrament. Women are saying, ‘I’m going to conduct the meeting.'”

  02:26 Paul is saying, “You need to get rid of the fornicators.” And then, the branch president said, “Well, I’ve got this ancestral relationship in my ward and they’re both coming to church and flaunting it, and I’m just looking the other way. So, what do you think, Paul?”

Hank Smith: 02:41 Yeah. What can I do?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 02:43 He’s just dealing with what our bishops’ deal with, basically. I like to say there’s nothing new with sin under the sun. He’s dealing with the same things that we’re dealing with in our congregations.

Hank Smith: 02:55 Fascinating. I’m looking forward to this today. Although I don’t love talking about the problems you listed, but I am looking forward to how Paul is going to address these. We can probably help quite a few leaders in the church with this episode.

  03:07 Hey John, why don’t you introduce Mary Jane to our audience? We’ve actually never had her on the podcast before, even though she’s a good friend. I’ve known her for years. Tell us who she is.

John Bytheway: 03:16 Yes. I’m excited to introduce Dr. Mary Jane Woodger. She’s a professor of church history and doctrine at Brigham Young University. She was born and raised in American Fork and Salt Lake City.

  03:27 In 1992, she completed her Master of Education at Utah State University, and received an educational doctorate in educational leadership at BYU with a minor in church history and doctrine. She’s written over 20 books.

  03:42 She wrote one called Beloved Prophet about David O. McKay, and more recently, Gifts of Self-Esteem, and Spiritual Gifts and the Christlike Life with Lloyd Newell. And I was excited to have Dr. Woodger on because as Hank and I, we both went to Greece earlier this year, and I needed to have something to say in Corinth.

  04:05 And I have this book, Go Ye Into All the World. Mary Jane wrote this article called The Eyes of Corinth, Modern Problems, Not New, and all of this, you can find at rsc.byu.edu now, but she’s like an expert on Corinthians.

Hank Smith: 04:22 It sounds like she’s an expert on everything.

John Bytheway: 04:25 Right. So, we’re just thrilled to have her. So, thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 04:30 My pleasure.

Hank Smith: 04:31 And not only is she a prolific writer, John, she’s just really, really nice. When I first came to BYU, she was one of the first to come and find me and say, “Welcome and you belong here, and we love having you here.”

  04:43 That meant a lot to me. I don’t know if you knew, Mary Jane, but that really made a difference for me. A little nervous coming into BYU, it was odd to walk those halls with people I’d read plenty of books.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 04:55 I know what you are saying.

Hank Smith: 04:56 And I’m like, “Oh, there’s that guy. I read his book.” “There’s that woman, I read her book.” And you’re like, “Holy cow, where am I?” All right, I’m going to read a little bit from the manual here and then we’re going to turn it over to you and let’s go where you want to go into this lesson.

  05:11 Here’s the first paragraph in the manual. “In Paul’s time, Corinth was a wealthy trade center with residents from all over the Roman Empire. With so many different cultures and religions in the city, church members in Corinth struggled.”

  05:23 You’ve already talked about that. “They struggled to maintain unity. So, Paul sought to help them find unity in their belief in Christ. This unity was to be more than just a peaceful coexistence. Paul wasn’t asking them to merely tolerate each other.”

  05:36 “Rather, he taught that when you join the church of Jesus Christ, you are baptized into one body and every body part is needed.” It goes on a little bit later to say, “So, whether you feel like you’ve always been at home in the church or find yourself wondering if you actually belong, Paul’s message to you is that unity is not sameness, but you need your fellow saints and your fellow saints need you.”

  05:58 I thought it was a great opening to this lesson. So, Mary Jane, where do you want to go? How should we start this? Do we need some background on Corinth or should we just jump right in?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 06:07 As we talk about Corinth, I have conceptualized some problems they were having and they all start with the letter I. As identified those, you’ve got intellectualism, being inappropriate, immorality, indiscretion, being insubmissible, and insecurity.

  06:26 And you’ve covered the first three intellectualism, being inappropriate, and immorality with Chapters 1 through 7. But I’d like to look at those other three problems they were having that we also have, starting with the first one, which I call indiscretion.

  06:43 Paul’s going to apply the gospel to social situations. We might look at Greco-Roman society and say, “That doesn’t apply to us.” But I really think it does. The first one, Chapter 8 through 10, that he spends a lot of time on, maybe Latter-day Saints reading it go, “This has nothing to do with me.”

  07:04 But there are two problems. One, people were going to the butchers, some meat, and you realize that in Corinth, if you got to eat meat, it was a big deal. It was very scarce. They would sacrifice the meat to the idols.

  07:22 People were going, “I don’t know if that’s right.” The other thing is saints in Corinth, ancient saints, were being invited to pagan temples for dinner parties and they weren’t sure if they should go. Those are the things that Paul’s dealing with.

Hank Smith: 07:38 I’ve never been invited to a pagan temple for a dinner party. I would wonder, too. I would wonder if I should go.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 07:46 If I went to a local grocery store and said to the butcher now, “I want to buy this T-bone, but I need to know if it’s been sacrificed to Zeus or not.” They’d be calling security. “This woman’s got some problems.”

  07:57 But if you look at it in the context, it really does apply to us. So, his response in Chapter 8, Verse 4, he says, “As concerning therefore, the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world and there is none other God but one.”

  08:19 In theory, eating idol meat had no religious significance for the Christians, but Paul’s going to add something. So, if you go to Chapter 8, again, in Verse 9, he said, “Take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours becomes a stumbling block to them that are weak.”

  08:37 “For if any man see thee, which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him, which is weak, be emboldened to eat those things, which are offered to idols. And through this knowledge shall the weak brother perish for whom Christ died.”

  08:59 So, I believe Paul’s applying the principle of love your neighbors yourself to this social situation. In some contexts in Corinth, eating meat offered to an idol is correct, in others, it’s inappropriate. Depending on how it’s going to affect all the people that are involved.

  09:16 Paul admonished, and this is going to Chapter 10, he said, “Whatsoever is sold in the shambles that eat asking no questions for conscience’s sake.” Paul instructs the Corinthian saints not to ask, where the meat they’re going to buy came from, unless someone else makes an issue of it, then the saints aren’t to buy it.

  09:39 Some may eat meat because the examples of other saints or through peer pressure, but feel it’s wrong. Thus, they would violate or weaken their consciousness. So, in other words, if you put your rights ahead of the spiritual welfare of another, you’re in the wrong.

  09:56 In other words, go through the motions and a liberty of yours or some right of yours can become a stumbling block to your neighbor’s testimony. What does that apply to us? Well, he’s not talking about commandments, he’s talking about those gray areas, word of wisdom, dress, those kinds of situations where you’ve got to consider your neighbor’s feelings.

  10:22 We need to be concerned about what we do, how it affects our brothers and sisters. I’ll give you an example in class, and this is talking about something that I don’t think we even consider that much, but we were talking about word of wisdom. We’re talking about Coke.

  10:38 So, I have one sister returned missionary who raises her hand said, “Well, Sister Woodger, when I was on my mission, my mission president said, ‘If a member of the church offers you a Coke, just drink it. Just drink it.'”

  10:53 And then, I had another returned missionary who raised their hand and said, “Well, Sister Woodger, in my mission, the saints were so conservative that the mission president said, ‘Even if a member of another faith offers you a Coke, don’t drink it.'” So, it’s in the context. It’s in the context,

Hank Smith: 11:13 Yeah. Trying to be careful with other people’s faith, especially Paul says, “The weak in the faith.” Be careful with those who are, how would you describe it, that their testimony isn’t quite strong enough to maybe handle some of this ambiguity.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 11:28 Yeah, absolutely. Let me give you another example. Let’s say, Sister Smith comes over, she sees me outside and she comes over.

Hank Smith: 11:34 By the way, I love her, Sister Smith. She is one of my favorite.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 11:37 Yeah, Sister Smith is the best.

Hank Smith: 11:39 I adore her. I’m glad I got to marry her. All right, keep going.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 11:42 Yeah, I didn’t know that. Oh, dear, maybe I better change it to Sister Jones. And she says, “Oh, I’m sorry, you’re seeing me like this.” And she looks like she could model for the Liahona cover. She says, “I just got off my exercise bike where I was reading my scriptures and my whole wheat bread was rising.”

  12:03 And I just got home from the grocery store and I have some Twinkies in the bag and some Diet Coke. And she said, “Oh, do you know Twinkies are just full of triglycerides and have you seen what a Coke does to a penny?”

  12:17 And then, she says, “I’m just going to go and pick up some peaches to can. You do canned fruit, don’t you?” And by the time Sister Smith gets done with me, what do I feel like, something that crawled out from under the rock.

Hank Smith: 12:29 I’ll have to go talk to her about this.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 12:35 Yeah, you need to. So, even in the church, Paul would say, “Be sensitive if someone’s not on your level.” What’s the principle? Its love your neighbor as yourself.

Hank Smith: 12:44 Be sensitive, I like that.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 12:46 I think sometimes, we look at, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Those two great commandments, “Love the Lord thy God with all your mind and strength.” And we think there are three commandments there.

  12:58 We think the Lord’s saying, “Love your God, love your neighbor, and love yourself.” He’s not commanding us to love ourselves. He’s just saying, “I’m aware that you do that.” He simply acknowledges that our own comfort is our first priority.

  13:12 And he’s saying, “As an ancient saint, you’ve got to worry about your neighbors and what you’re doing is going to affect them.”

John Bytheway: 13:21 Is this getting into avoid the appearance of evil? I don’t mean to say eating meat was evil, but it’s that idea, what will this do to others who may be weaker in the faith? Let’s look at Verse 13 of 1 Corinthians 8.

  13:35 “Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.” This reminds me of Jesus saying to Peter, “Do the children of the kingdom give tribute?” Do you remember that story?

Hank Smith: 13:50 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 13:51 But Jesus says, “Well, no, but lest we offend them. Go get that coin out of that fish’s mouth and we’ll pay.” Here’s the Savior being… but we didn’t come to offend, so let’s avoid offending, if we can. Anyway, I love that, that Jesus would teach that.

Hank Smith: 14:08 Mary Jane, I really like what we’re saying here because we’re not labeling you as evil or sinful because you’re doing this thing. Just be sensitive to other people. I really like that. Every ward would be better, every branch would be better if we were just sensitive to each other.

  14:25 Let me share with you a quick story. I had a friend who was a young dad in a ward, and they came in one of their first weeks. They sat down in sacrament meeting. And he has a lot of noisy kids. An older gentleman behind them decided to get up and switch benches.

  14:41 And my friend assumed it was because his family was so out of control. He held a little bit of that grudge towards that man for a long time. He said, “It wasn’t until much later that I learned that he had served in Vietnam, and the people he was fighting often used children in that fighting, that they would either use them as shields or they would hand them weapons.”

  15:05 And so, he had some real, very real trauma connected to that. He suddenly became very sensitive to the needs of another member when he knew about this specific member’s problems. And so, maybe that’s similar to what we’re talking about here.

  15:20 Be sensitive to maybe what other people have experienced. What does Paul teach next?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 15:25 I think the next one that we need to deal with, which is a difficult one, is being insubmissible. If you go to Corinthians 11:3, I know for some women this is a difficult scripture where Paul says, “The head of every man is Christ and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God.”

  15:48 Now, some who read that misinterpret Paul’s words. In error, they feel that there’s a continuum of value and a woman is on the bottom. I believe that Paul’s focus in that verse is not on gender, but it’s on the role of husbands and wives.

  16:07 He is not talking about an individual’s value, but if you look at the kingdom of God, everyone is in submission to someone else, to a higher authority. Submissiveness is not gender-based, nor does it demean the one who is presided over.

  16:27 I would ask, is Christ lessened by being submissive to our Father in heaven? Is a bishop who’s submissive to a stake president less than? Every Latter-day Saint is voluntarily submissive through common consent with an understanding that the person who presides over them is going to serve them.

  16:52 I think as Paul talks about the covenant relationship that is made through a sealed couple, his paradigm for a husband and wife relationship is Jesus Christ and the church. So, as a wife, can I ask my husband to treat me better than Christ treats the church?

  17:16 Paul was perfectly comfortable with women teaching, counseling, testifying, praying, and exhorting, but not with ruling, organizing, or presiding over a ward or branch. Especially if you look through Philippians, Paul loved and showed great concern for women.

  17:37 It’s not Paul and it’s not the original apostles that started the degradation of women. It was rather the culture in society in which they lived. Let me just give you an example, often referring to women as the weaker sex.

  17:53 It was Socrates who immortalized the Athenian disdain toward women. And Socrates said that being a woman is a divine punishment since a woman is halfway between a man and an animal. That Greek philosophy that Paul’s dealing with pervaded the Christian church’s thinking.

  18:15 And it not only accelerated the apostasy, it accelerated the apostate perception of women. Let me give you another one.

John Bytheway: 18:23 That was Socrates, that first Socrates?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 18:25 That was Socrates.

John Bytheway: 18:26 Unbelievable.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 18:27 Yeah. Here’s Augustine. Augustine wondered how a man could possibly love his wife knowing what she is and what she represents, and concluded that he should love her as a Christian is commanded to love our enemies.

John Bytheway: 18:42 Goodness.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 18:43 The ascetic church fathers identified women with sexuality, which they equated with filth. And the horror of sexual relations became transported into a horror of women. So, here you have in contradiction, what does Paul say?

  19:00 In 11:11, he says, “Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man in the Lord.” That’s revolutionary in the culture that he’s living in. It’s just amazing. He’s never inferring that a wife should be a drudge or a doormat, or a slave.

  19:22 And for Paul, I believe, the only reason he’s saying you are voluntary submissive is because that person who’s presiding is going to serve you. If you want to find fault, you can easily find it, but don’t find it with Paul or those original apostles.

  19:41 They were so different in the way they regarded women. And I would say, they regard women in the same way that our general authorities do. And as I read Corinthians, I feel that Paul was absolutely clear that women receive their due respect, which the society and culture around him was not giving women.

John Bytheway: 20:05 I was down at Deseret Industry just once, so I was looking for a book.

Hank Smith: 20:10 My books?

John Bytheway: 20:11 Yeah, that’s where I find mine. They’re goodwill, recycle bins, everywhere. You can find mine. I found this book called Who’s Who in the Bible, a Reader’s Digest publication. I wanted to see what they said about Melchizedek.

  20:25 But I looked up Eve and it said that in early Christian theology, Eve was seen as the devil’s gateway.

Hank Smith: 20:32 The opposite of Mary, yeah.

John Bytheway: 20:34 Opposite of Mary. I found another book called History’s Worst Mistakes and the People Who Made Them. And I opened up the first page and it said, “Adam and Eve were the original idiots.” It’s fun to show that to my class when I teach 2 Nephi 2 about the fall.

  20:51 And then, to look at Joseph F. Smith’s vision where he uses the phrase about people he saw in the spirit world, “And our glorious Mother Eve and many of her faithful daughters.” And to see how different that is than Socrates or even some of the early church fathers like you just said.

  21:11 “Our glorious mother Eve,” and find that anywhere in traditional Christianity, that phrase,

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 21:18 I think Paul would never… we just talked about him worrying about being insensitive to your neighbor. He would never ever condone any kind of abuse for a woman in any way, shape, or form. And you get into Corinthians and you get into this whole thing about their cultural dress standards and a woman needs to cover her head, this kind of thing.

  21:46 And he’s just saying there that it’s a form of respect. It’s like, in our congregations, I don’t think a man would wear a baseball cap. He would never condone abuse. Especially what President Nelson has said and the incredible things I’ve learned about being a female in the Kingdom of God from President Nelson, I think Paul would say, “Oh, absolutely.”

  22:17 He has this respect for women. And when you look at the civilization, which he was brought up here, especially as a Roman citizen in the place of women, he is revolutionary in how he sees really women and men as being equal partners in that marriage relationship.

John Bytheway: 22:37 As we’ve talked earlier about some of the first witnesses of Christ’s resurrection, the women at the tomb and everything, what a prominent part they play in the whole story of the resurrection.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 22:48 It’s interesting John, that though, that’s not mentioned all that often in the gospels, there were women following the entire time. There were women in the Savior’s circle, in the group, that would go with him from place to place.

  23:03 This is President Nelson in 2022, “As president of the church, I affirm the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ on this issue.” He’s talking about abuse. “Let me be perfectly clear, any kind of abuse of women, children or anyone is an abomination to the Lord. He grieves and I grieve whenever anyone is harmed.”

  23:22 “He mourns and we all mourn for each person who has fallen victim to abuse of any kind. Those who perpetuate these hideous acts are not only accountable to the laws of men but will also face the wrath of almighty God.” I think he was perfectly clear.

John Bytheway: 23:38 There’s a book out by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland called Our Day Star Rising. And it’s basically his commentary on the New Testament, and he had a commentary on 1 Corinthians 11:11 that we just read.

  23:50 So, let me read from Elder Holland’s book. “The apostle Paul taught that the inspired concept that neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man in the Lord,” just 1 Corinthians 11:11.

  24:02 “I know the truth of that in my own life, no prophet, no apostle, no president of the church, no mission president, no bishop, no deacons quorum advisor, no scoutmaster, no seminary teacher, no one in all this world has taught me what Sister Holland has taught me.”

  24:18 “She has been the light of my life for more than half a century in a category of her own beyond any of those great fine teachers that I have had. I like to tell young adult men, you make sure you marry the right woman.”

  24:31 “I don’t care about how she looks. I don’t care about her education. I don’t care about her social status. I don’t care about her income or what her parents were or were not. But I want her to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God Almighty, our Father.”

  24:46 “With her conviction of the restoration and her love for you, you will change the world and you’ll start by changing your own.” Beautiful.

  24:57 And I just thinking, we just lost Sister Holland. It’s hard to read that. But Mary Jane, I love what you said, “Can we expect our husbands to treat us better than Christ treated the church?”

  25:09 I’m so glad you put it that way and that Paul elevates marriage and elevates the marriage relationships so much when he talks about that. How does Christ treat us and the church? And boy, if we can treat each other that way, that seems to be the ultimate that Paul’s giving us.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 25:28 I think it’s his expectation, Paul’s expectation. And it’s probably not happening as it needs to, but it’s the ideal and it’s how he envisioned. In mortal settings, it’s not as it should be, but that’s what he envisioned. That’s what he’s trying to say.

Hank Smith: 25:48 I like that. He even flat out says in another place, “Brethren, love your wives as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 25:58 The next “I” that I want to cover, I think, is the most important one in Corinthians, and that’s insecurity. That I believe has to do with spiritual gifts. So, Chapter 12, Paul starts right out and he says, “Now, look, concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.”

  26:21 Paul says, “I want you to learn about spiritual gifts.” Now, look at President Nelson, same thing, he said, “Pray to understand your spiritual gifts to cultivate, use, and expand them even more than you ever have. You will change the world as you do so.”

  26:41 I would suggest that you’ll change your world as you learn about spiritual gifts and become confident and secure in owning those gifts. And notice in Verse 70 says, “But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit with all.”

  27:04 In other words, every member of the church has at least one spiritual gift. Now, I call, there are two apostles, modern apostles that I call the great spiritual gift apostles. And then, I call President Nelson, the prophet, who spoke more about spiritual gifts than any other prophet in my lifetime.

  27:25 But the two apostles that spent more time than any others are Elder Maxwell and elder Marvin j Ashton.

Hank Smith: 27:31 I was going to say, Marvin J. Ashton comes to mind when spiritual gifts.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 27:35 Elder Maxwell will say, “The spiritual gifts that we have are not new. You possess them premortally.” So, he says, this is Elder Maxwell, “Each mortal is endowed genetically, environmentally, but also premortally.”

  27:49 “We each have, for instance, at least one spiritual gift. None of the approximately 20 gifts specified in the scriptures is insignificant. Yet, if we despair, then whatever our gifts or talents we have felt.”

  28:04 “A gift is no gift until one gives it. Lucifer, apparently, was and is multi-talented, but the memories of what might’ve been gnaw at him constantly, no wonder he is an incurable insomniac.”

Hank Smith: 28:19 That’s Elder Maxwell?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 28:21 We will never see a wordsmith like Elder Maxwell. Some people don’t think they have any spiritual gifts. Elder Maxwell says, “That’s going to bring despair.” Here’s Elder Ashton. He calls that one of the great tragedies of life. “A tragedy, it seems to me is when a person classifies himself as someone who has no talents or gifts.

  28:44 When in disgust or discouragement we allow ourselves to reach depressive levels of despair because of our demeaning self-appraisal, it is a sad day for us and a sad day in the eyes of God. For us to conclude that we have no gifts when we judge ourselves by stature, intelligence, grade point average, wealth, power, position or external appearance is not only unfair, it’s unreasonable.

  29:12 Some latter-day saints who are believers fail to believe they possess any spiritual gifts.” Elder Ashton goes, “It’s up to each of us to search for and build upon the gifts which God has given. We must remember that each of us is made in the image of God that there are no unimportant persons.”

  29:32 So, I get from what those two apostles have said and what Paul said that if you don’t believe you have spiritual gifts, you’re going to be in despair. You’re going to have those other awful D’s, depression, doubt, darkness, until you can rediscover what immortality, what spiritual gifts you had premortally.

  29:58 So, if you’ll go to Verse 4, Paul says, “Now, there are diversity of gifts but of the same spirit.” Not all spiritual gifts are listed in Corinthians or D&C 46 or by Moroni. I think that list is illustrative, not comprehensive.

  30:25 And Elder Ashton again gives what he calls a list of less conspicuous gifts. He says this, “Many gifts are referred to as being very real and most useful. Taken at random, let me mention a few gifts that are not always evident or noteworthy but that are very important.”

  30:46 “Among these may be your gifts, gifts not so evident, but nevertheless real and valuable. Let us review some of these less conspicuous gifts,” Elder Ashton says, “The gift of asking, the gift of listening, the gift of hearing and using a still small voice, the gift of being able to weep, the gift of avoiding contention, the gift of being agreeable, the gift of avoiding vain repetition.”

  31:13 Boy, as a teacher, I need that one. “The gift of seeking that which is righteous, the gift of not passing judgment, the gift of looking to God for guidance, the gift of being a disciple, the gift of caring for others, the gift of being able to ponder, the gift of offering a prayer, the gift of bearing a mighty testimony, and the gift of receiving the Holy Ghost.”

  31:37 And then, Paul says, and I would include those gifts that Elder Ashton just listed, “But all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to every man severely as he will.” So, there is this diversity of gifts, but they are all honorable.

  32:00 And look what Paul says in Verse 23, as he compares, “I believe are spiritual gifts to the human body.” And he says, “And those members of the body, which we think to be less honorable, upon these, we bestow more abundant honor, and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.”

  32:20 “For our comely parts have no need, but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honor to that part which lacked.” “That there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care one for another.”

  32:37 When I read that, I’m looking at those gifts that maybe we would call uncomely. And Paul is saying they’re all needed. They’re all needed as much as the gifts even that are listed by Paul and Joseph Smith, and Moroni.

John Bytheway: 32:54 I’m glad you mentioned it. When we think of Moroni 10, we think, “Oh Moroni, I promise.” Right after that, Moroni gives this list of spiritual gifts. And you mentioned also Section 46, and I’m really grateful for that one that talks about some is given to teach, some to believe on their words.

  33:14 In my margin I put, here’s Nephi that says, “I want to see what my father saw and he sees.” And then, he tells Sam and Sam just believes him. And I think both of those are spiritual gifts with those two as an example.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 33:29 I just have here also Elder McConkie said, “In the fullest sense, spiritual gifts are infinite in number and endless in their manifestations.”

John Bytheway: 33:42 And I love that Elder Ashton said, “Gift of listening.” I’ve heard Hank give some really excellent counsel about listening. We’ve had a few home evenings about interrupting, which is saying what I have to say is more important than what you’re saying.

Hank Smith: 34:03 Oftentimes, I think, Mary Jane, sometimes we see our spiritual gifts as weaknesses. People who weep are often like, “Oh, I hate that I weep so easily.” And I’m saying, “That’s a spiritual gift. That’s a spiritual gift.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 34:16 Elder Ashton lists that one also, that it’s a gift to be able to cry.

Hank Smith: 34:20 When people are shy, they think, “Oh, this is such a curse.” And I tell them, “I covet that gift.” John, it would be good for you and I to sometimes be shy, right? Close your mouth sometimes. What a gift. What a gift to keep your mouth shut. I would love that gift, actually.

  34:39 I had done some research on listening. There are just so many different types of listening from ignoring someone to passive and casual listening where you’re on your phone, you’re doing other things, and you work your way all the way up to this connective type of listening.

  34:54 So, I have to share a story. Sarah and I were out to dinner once with a big group of people and we ended up sitting across from a couple we did not know. And so, we were engaging in polite conversation.

  35:04 I was talking to the husband across from me and we were talking about the Red Sox or something. And I was trying to be a good listener. So, I was trying to be interested in what he was speaking about. That’s a good listener.

  35:16 And a few minutes, probably 10 minutes into our conversation, I look over and my wife and his wife are holding hands and they’re both crying across the table. And I looked at them, shocked. I was like, “Wow.”

  35:34 And my wife looked at me, both my wife and the woman looked at me, and I didn’t know what to say, so I just said, “What are you doing?” It struck me, John, so I said, “What are you doing?”

  35:47 And they went back to their conversation. And I turned to the man, and I was like, “I’m not going to do that.” We’re not going to be holding hands or crying anytime soon. So, afterwards, I asked Sarah, I said, “What was that about?”

  36:01 And she said, “Hank, that woman is the best listener I’ve ever talked to,” which I was offended because I’m obviously the best listener that she’s ever talked to. But I said, “Why? What did she do?” And she said, “Well, she was asking about our family and our kids.”

  36:19 And we had just barely had twin boys. They were about two years old. And the woman said to my wife, “You must rely on your mom a lot. You’ve got all these little kids. You must rely on your mom a lot.”

  36:32 And Sarah said, “I would, I absolutely would, but unfortunately, my mom passed away about six months ago when they were 18 months old.” Now, even a good listener might say something like, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” And then, we would probably move on in the conversation.

  36:49 She said, “Hank, she looked as if I had kicked her or something. She looked so hurt. And she reached out across the table and she said, ‘Sarah, are you telling me that you are raising five kids and your mom is already gone?'”

  37:04 And she said, “Yeah, yeah, she is.” She said, “Tell me about her. Tell me about her, Sarah. I want to know about her.” Sarah said, “Oh, thanks for asking.” Nobody ever asks, right? She said, she’s the greatest grandma in the world.

  37:20 She knew when their doctor’s appointments were and who their teachers were. And she just was very interested. She said, “I miss her so, so much.” And the funny part of this is the woman said, “Is there anybody that you have that you can talk to?”

  37:35 And they both looked at me. And at that moment, I said, “What are you doing?” And then, Sarah turned back to her and said, “No, I have no one.” That moment of my wife being hurt and just having someone who was listening and understanding really, really blessed her life.

  38:00 And that’s because this woman had this spiritual gift, this spiritual gift that she uses on a regular basis. It’s not huge. It’s not one that’s up in front of everybody on the pulpit, but it’s real and it’s there. Thanks for letting me tell a story there.

John Bytheway: 38:16 Oh, I love that story. That’s great. Looked at me and went, “No, I don’t have anybody.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 38:25 Now that you mentioned, yeah.

Hank Smith: 38:27 Yeah, not really. Let’s keep talking about this. Mary Jane, what more do you want to say about spiritual gifts?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 38:34 You notice that Paul, Moroni, and D&C 46, when they start to list those illustrative gifts, all three of them start with the same one. And here’s Paul, “Wherefore I give you to understand that no man speaking by the spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed, and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord but by the Holy Ghost.”

  39:01 So, that I think is the premier spiritual gift, is that you can say that Jesus is the Christ. I just find that interesting that all three sections or chapters on spiritual gifts list that as the first. And notice that in the Doctrine & Covenants, they’re all listed in pairs.

  39:26 And this one by Paul misses the pair that is listed in the Doctrine & Covenants. That pair of gifts became very important to me one situation in my life. When I was 18, I had the opportunity to participate in the Hill Cumorah pageant.

  39:42 And at that time they took 600 women, and I think we had about 24 return missionary males, and they put us on buses and took us back from Utah to Palmyra. And we were on the bus for three days.

  40:01 And I was one of the youngest and realized that I was around people that were much more developed in the gospel than I was. And I remember we stopped in South Bend, Indiana. I think we were at Notre Dame, we had a testimony meeting.

  40:18 And the meeting went on for, I swear, hours. And with each testimony, I was feeling more and more inadequate. And finally, one of the return missionaries got up and said, “If there are any of you that are feeling your testimonies weak compared to those that you’re hearing today.”

  40:37 And I wanted to stand up and say, “Yeah, right here.” He said, “I just would encourage you to refer to Section 46 verses 13, 14. And then, he read them and he said “to some it is given by the Holy Ghost to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he was crucified for the sins of the world.”

  40:56 That’s the one Paul’s talking about. But here’s the pairing. “But to others, it is given to believe on the words that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful.” And he said, “Now, notice, if you continue to believe on their words, you get eternal life also.

  41:19 At 18, I went, “Oh, okay. I get to have eternal life also, if I have the gift of believing on their words.” Of course, we cannot continue our whole lives without receiving that. We can’t go on borrowed light.

  41:37 But through the spiritual gift of believing on their words, eventually, we also will receive that knowledge. And I love that pairing of those two gifts in the Doctrine & Covenants, which enhances what Paul is saying about that first premier gift.

Hank Smith: 41:53 Yeah. It reminds me very much of Matthew Chapter 10. Do you remember Jesus saying, “He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.” And for a long time, I didn’t know what he was talking about there until I read it really closely.

  42:07 And he’s saying, “You don’t have to be a prophet to receive a prophet’s reward. You just have to receive a prophet. Then, you are going to enjoy that same reward that a prophet is given.” “He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet’s reward.”

  42:23 And once I saw it, I thought, “Oh, I don’t have to be a prophet in order to have the greatest blessings that God has in store. I do need to receive a prophet in order to receive those same blessings.”

John Bytheway: 42:34 And I think you’ve got the capital P Prophet and a small P prophet, too. I love that when Nephi is giving us his keys for understanding Isaiah, he says, “Well, it’s not maybe clear to you, but it’s clear to those of us with the spirit of prophecy.”

  42:49 And we all think, “Oh, thanks a lot Nephi. You’re large in stature, too.” But I love the Revelation 19:10, I think it is the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. In that way, if you’re with a group of people who believe and have a testimony of Christ, you’re in a room with Prophets and prophets. Where else would you get it except by the Spirit?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 43:14 Doesn’t that give us the reason we have testimony meetings every month? How very important that is?

John Bytheway: 43:21 When I was a bishop, I kept notes on every testimony when I was there and I have a Bishop’s journal. And I didn’t know when I had a brother pass away, how beautiful that was because I could go back and I could say, “Do you remember when Brother Wardell said this? Do you remember when Brother Wardell said this? Do you remember another time when he said this?”

  43:47 And it was really nice to have those. I know the angels record our testimonies, but that has been a blessing writing those down. I wanted to know how do people know when they say I know how do they know? And I was looking for that when I wrote those down and I could see some of those spiritual gifts in there.

  44:07 Mary Jane, there’s a wonderful story from the life of Brigham Young where he talks about his baptism being taught and baptized, which if you’re the guy who baptized Brigham Young, you had some impact on the church. This is what Brigham Young said about Eleazer Miller who was teaching him the gospel.

  44:26 He said, “If all the talent, tact, wisdom, and refinement of the world had been sent to me with the Book of Mormon, and had declared in the most exalted of earthly eloquence, the truth of it, undertaking to prove it by learning and worldly wisdom, they would’ve been to me like the smoke, which arises only to vanish away.”

  44:46 Now, he’s talking about Eleazer Miller, he says, “But when I saw a man without eloquence or talents for public speaking, who could only say, ‘I know by the power of the Holy Ghost, that the Book of Mormon is true, that Joseph Smith is a prophet of the Lord,’ the Holy Ghost proceeding from that individual illuminated my understanding and light, glory, and immortality were before me.”

  45:11 “I was encircled by them, filled with them. And I knew for myself that the testimony of this man was true. My own judgment, natural endowments and education bowed to the simple, but mighty, testimony.”

  45:23 And then, in the meeting itself, he said, “There sits the man who baptized me, Brother Eleazer Miller.” We don’t have to be eloquent in this testimony. In the bearing of a testimony, we don’t have to worry about talent or wisdom, or refinement. We can just speak what we know.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 45:44 That reminds me so much of when President Heber J. Grant was called to be a stake president at age 23.

Hank Smith: 45:51 Wow, at 23, oh, man.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 45:54 Yeah. He was called to Tooele, and he didn’t live in Tooele. When they sustained him, he got up to speak and afterwards they had the luncheon, and President Taylor and Joseph F. Smith were there and Joseph F. turned to Heber J. Grant and said, “I noticed this morning, you didn’t bear your testimony that you know, that Jesus is the Christ, and I would encourage you to do that this afternoon.”

  46:19 And Heber J. Grant said, “Well, I didn’t bear it because I don’t know it.” And Joseph F. Smith was aghast and turned to John Taylor and said, “I suggest we undo what we just did. We can’t have a stake president.”

  46:31 And John Taylor said, “Heber J. Grant knows that Jesus is the Christ. He just doesn’t know that he knows it, yet, but he will.” So, what Heber J. Grant did is he decided he would go to all the different wards in the stake and he was listening to one of the bishops speak.

  46:52 He had horrible grammar. Heber J. Grant started to write down all the phrases that he used inappropriately. And then, this bishop bore his testimony, and Heber J. Grant stopped and said, he knows, he knows. And I know from listening to him.

Hank Smith: 47:13 John, I remember you writing this book, How Do I Know If I Know? I remember you telling me that the impetus for that book was a conversation with your son.

John Bytheway: 47:23 Yeah. He came into my office one day and said, “Dad, how do I know if I felt the spirit?” And I panicked, and closed the door and wrote a book. But I loved the story because for John Taylor to say, “He knows, he just doesn’t know that he knows.”

  47:41 I thought is a testimony that hard to detect? And sometimes we know more than we think we do. And it’s so fun that it was Heber J. Grant, he became the president of the church. I guess six months later he bore a powerful witness that he knew.

  47:56 We talked about knowing, but we don’t often talk about how do we know. And so, that story gave me a good jumping off point. Thanks for mentioning that, Hank.

Hank Smith: 48:04 Mary Jane, where are we going to go next with this? Does Paul continue to talk about spiritual gifts?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 48:10 He does and he lists, as I said, some of the same ones that are found in the other two places in scripture. The next one he talks about in Verse 5 and 6, “And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God, which worketh all in all.”

  48:30 Latter-day Saint scholar, Sidney B. Sperry defined the gift of knowing the differences of administration is meant, he said, “The distinctive varieties of service.” In other words, there are different ways that an individual serves in any capacity, in any calling.

  48:48 I think of my friend who was called to be a young women’s president and she’s in her 60s. She’s going, “Okay, I need more energy. I got to be able to hike.” It’s just not going to happen. But her way of serving is so needed by those young women in her ward.

  49:10 And she has made a much different impression than she would’ve if she would’ve been called in her 30s or 20s. There’s a unique style, and the Lord honors that. He accepts the way in which each of us fulfill our callings, even though it might be so different.

  49:30 You look at our prophets, Joseph Smith restoring the great prophet of restoration, but I’m not sure he had the gifts that would’ve brought the saints across the plains and colonized the great basin, like Brigham Young did.

  49:42 Even in my lifetime, I look at Spencer W. Kimball, who I call the great prophet of change and so many things that he did. And then, I’m not sure he could have got The Book of Mormon into the lives of the church like Ezra Taft Benson did. So, it’s that differences of administration, but it’s the same Lord.

Hank Smith: 50:01 Mary Jane, maybe I’m going to be a little vulnerable here, but how do I not excuse myself from some service in the church saying, “Well, I just don’t have the gift of administration.” Listen, I’m a teacher. I am not an administrator.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 50:15 It’s like President Ballard said, when you’re called to that administrative situation, whenever you are considering the call of a new counselor, make sure you look for people who are strong, where you feel you are weak.

  50:30 This means you need to have a pretty good understanding of your own strengths and weaknesses as well as the relative ability and inabilities of those whom you’re considering to serve with you.

John Bytheway: 50:39 And that’s why we need that diversity of gifts.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 50:44 You also have the diversity of operations along with the differences of administrations. You might say, “What’s the difference?” So, as you look at the Greek word for operations, it means activities.

Hank Smith: 50:58 Diversity of operations.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 51:01 I think as you’re looking at the Greek, the ideas of activities are different kinds of things that go on. And so, if you have that gift, then you understand what is going on around you and you can decipher what an activity really is.

  51:15 You have eyes to see the reality of works, manifestations, trends and events that are going on around you, and you have that lens to know whether it’s Satan’s counterfeit.

John Bytheway: 51:27 That is interesting. Though, I’d never seen that phrase, diversity of operations along with differences of administration.

Hank Smith: 51:35 Under spiritual gifts, it says knowledge of the diversity of operations helps individuals discern whether a teaching or influence comes from God or from some other source. So yeah, you were right on there.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 51:46 Spiritual gifts produce results that are obvious because of the divine power behind them. Satan can produce powerful counterfeits. His works are nothing in comparison to the works of the Lord.

  51:58 So, if you have that diversity of operations, you can recognize the power behind any work, whether it’s Satan’s power or Gods. Authentic gifts or workings of the Holy Ghost, you can determine from false spirits, doctrines, or commandments.

Hank Smith: 52:16 Oh, okay. That’s a good gift. I like that gift. Yeah. Let’s see. What does Paul mean next, Mary Jane, when he says, “For one, it is given by the spirit, the word of wisdom.” Now, if I’m going to read that with my 2023 lens, I’m like, “Oh, this guy keeps the word of wisdom,” but I don’t think that’s what Paul meant.

John Bytheway: 52:35 I didn’t even think it’s a health code thing.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 52:39 And to another, the word of knowledge by the same spirit. So, you’ve got two gifts there. One is knowledge and the other is wisdom. Let’s first of all talk about the gift of knowledge. We’re called the information age.

  52:53 And we have information at our fingertips. Literally, we have the preceding accumulated information of every other era that’s ever existed on the earth. So, what’s the difference? I would ask between knowledge and information.

  53:09 I believe the difference is the Holy Ghost is called the spirit of truth. And I think if you have that gift of knowledge that you are able to understand through the spirit what is truth, and that is the difference. It isn’t that you have a high IQ.

  53:29 Notice in the Doctrine & Covenants. This is in 121:26, “God shall give unto you knowledge.” And I would say the gift of knowledge “by his Holy Spirit, yea, by the unspeakable gift of the Holy Ghost, that has not been revealed since the world was until now.”

  53:47 And then, in Section 42, to gain knowledge, the Lord said, “If thou shalt ask, thou shalt receive revelation upon revelation, knowledge upon knowledge.” I think that gift of knowledge is deciphering which information is true. And boy, do we ever need that in our society?

John Bytheway: 54:08 I like to tell my students, “If any of you lack information, let him ask Google. Google will tell you something. Alexa will tell you something. Siri will tell you something, every time, and it might be true, but if you lack wisdom, that’s an entirely different question.”

  54:27 I heard Sheri Dew turn a phrase once that I thought, “Oh, that’s so good.” “Go to sources that only speak truth,” is the way she said it. I thought, “Oh, what a good way to say it. “Go to the scriptures.”

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 54:38 As we look at the difference, because there’s obviously a difference between the gift of knowledge and the gift of wisdom. You’d say, “What is the difference?”

  54:45 I would say knowledge is the acquisition of facts, of true information, where wisdom is related to our actions, our decisions, and our behaviors. A humorist once said, “Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing you don’t put that tomato in a fruit salad.”

Hank Smith: 55:05 I had that quote ready to go. I love that. I love that. “Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad.” Oh, that’s funny.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 55:17 You look at Joseph Smith, he determined he lacked wisdom. He didn’t lack information. There was plenty of information, plenty of knowledgeable people around him. What Joseph wanted to know is, “How should I act?”

  55:33 A lot of people think wisdom comes from age. A wise person is old, wrinkled, and has white hair. But wisdom is not just acting your age, it is acting according to our better nature.

John Bytheway: 55:45 And it isn’t even educational degrees. It’s the 2 Nephi 9, “When they are learned, they think they are wise.” It’s like he’s saying it’s not the same, not necessarily the same things, very wise people who don’t have lots of credentials.

Hank Smith: 56:02 And both are good.

John Bytheway: 56:03 But to be learned is good if they hearken.

Hank Smith: 56:05 I think John and I both have to learn this lesson. Have you, Mary Jane, that knowledge is knowing what to say, wisdom is knowing when to say it?

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 56:15 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 56:15 Knowledge is knowing how to play the banjo. Wisdom is you don’t use that for a musical number in sacrament meeting.

Dr. Mary Jane Woodger: 56:21 Here you go.

Hank Smith: 56:28 Please join us for part two of this podcast.