John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:00:07 John, I would love to have you read this next paragraph if we move on. Does that sound good?

John Bytheway: 00:00:12 I’ll do it. Yes.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:00:13 It starts, “The family’s ordained of God.”

John Bytheway: 00:00:16 “The family is ordained of God. Marriage between and woman is essential to His eternal plan. Children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony and to be reared by a father and a mother who honor marital vows with complete fidelity. Happiness and family life is most likely to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:00:39 There’s just so much that… In that most powerful.

Hank Smith: 00:00:44 Oh goodness. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:00:45 You’ll remember when Elder Christofferson quotes Dietrich Bonhoeffer, one of my heroes, as writing a letter to his niece and she’s going to be married. He says, “You think that this love is just between you and your fiance. But it is a post of responsibility,” and he says, “to the world.” That in your marriage, it is a post of responsibility to the world.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:01:09 When I look at the data, just the reality that the breaking of family structures, so children who experienced divorce or who grew up outside of the bonds of marriage or who were born to a single parent and just what we see is the risk to them.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:01:27 Even after controlling for socioeconomic differences, for controlling for things is twice as likely to have serious challenges in every aspect of development. So physically, emotionally, psychologically, academically, all of those things.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:01:42 When you look at family structure and it’s in social science, we’re just working with meager human means to measure effects. But there’s so much data that shows the power of a nuclear family for children in terms of providing the greatest likelihood for their thriving, growing up with their mother and their father who are married.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:02:04 That they’ll even say in sociology, it’s law-like. It is so consistent that there just is… There’s just no other institution, Brad Wilcox, not our BYU Brad Wilcox, but UVA’s, “No institution reliably connects to parents, their money, talent and time to their children the way that marriage does.” This very vulnerable part of our population. We talk about trying to make a family or a child-centered culture because some people will say, when we’re in a post-marriage world, the marriage rate has dropped and people are so much older. We’re in kind of a post-marriage world. We need to just have a child centered-culture.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:02:42 And you just cannot replace marriage as the institution that secures for children what is essential for their thriving. And so when this statement is made, it just shows up so powerfully. Marriage is essential to the eternal plan and that children are entitled. The reason we care about marriage as a church, the reason there was concern about its redefinition with same sex marriage, it isn’t because of rejection of certain people, it’s because we care so deeply about the most vulnerable among us who have no say.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:03:22 They don’t have any say. They enter life in that structure that they’re born into and they don’t get to decide what that is. We as a society just… We absolutely have an obligation to protect the likelihood of them growing up in relationships that will increase their chances for thriving and development.

Hank Smith: 00:03:45 It sounds like you’re saying the research clearly shows.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:03:45 It’s yes. It’s law-like in nature. As much as you can say, social science research is law-like. It is just profound.

John Bytheway: 00:03:54 That’s why I love what you’re saying here, because I can come from a, “Here’s what I’ve learned from the gospel background.” But you are saying all of this is backed up with social science and research and the Proclamation is restating something that is well founded.

John Bytheway: 00:04:13 I taught Jacob 2 and 3 the other day in my class. I showed them statistics on outcomes of fatherlessness. There are so many single moms out there just working so hard and we love you and support you and sustain you. Please don’t look at it that way. You have a village around you in your ward family and everything, but the stats on fatherlessness, as you just mentioned, what we’re the words you said? Academically, financially, socially.

John Bytheway: 00:04:44 This is just saying, most likely to be achieved. This is the ideal we’re stating again. A mom, a dad, a mom and dad loving one another loving their children in a home.

Hank Smith: 00:04:56 That’s an ideal.

John Bytheway: 00:04:57 It’s an ideal.

Hank Smith: 00:04:58 It can cause pain when the ideal isn’t met. However, we don’t want to strike out the ideal and just say, well, we can get rid of it because a lot of people for some reason or another, can’t be in that situation. But that still is the ideal.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:05:17 It’s not to say that divorce isn’t absolutely the right thing to do. In some situations… My husband, his parents divorced when he was just six and, and they were not members of the Church. He’s a convert to the Church. And he described it so interesting, coming to understand what that gap had created in his life and a deep witness of the Savior’s atoning power to heal all gaps in our lives.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:05:45 I came from an intact family, but I have needed the Savior as he has needed the Savior. I think it’s just powerful how we learn over and over again. This is a statement from the handbook I think as well. Individual circumstances may prevent parents from rearing their children together. However, the Lord will bless them as they seek his help and strive to keep their covenants with him.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:06:11 I will tell my students, many of whom have come from these structural challenges, that we’re not ideal. Just what gifts that can be as they care. They have a view of things that are special. They understand the pain that comes when parents are not united. Sometimes that can be the most profound motivator to help them do things in a way that I may not even think about. To care deeply about doing things in a better way or what they have learned from those experiences, how it’s taught them about the Lord’s love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:06:46 Because of Christ, there is no permanent loss. That’s just absolutely true. Even though we look at this data and want to appreciate the realities that for children, this structure of married father and mother is the best setting for their growth and development. And as a society, we have to care deeply about that. We are so grateful for the Redeemer’s giving us a chance to grow on earth and redeeming it all.

John Bytheway: 00:07:14 Yeah. One of my favorite statements of the prophet Joseph Smith, when I think about single moms, single dads, just things out of their control sometimes he said, “All of your losses will be made up to you in the resurrection, provided you continue faithful. By the vision of the Almighty, I have seen it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:07:35 How can you deny? I have seen it.” Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:07:39 All of your losses will be made up to you. Hank and all of us spend a lot of time, all three of us here with a lot of young adults. Yeah, you’ve come from that. But this is helping you prepare for… You’re trying to put together your ideal, trying to strive for that and to reach that. Live in such a way to prepare that, that you have the best chance for this for you.

Hank Smith: 00:08:04 Yeah. It goes back to what Jenet told us earlier, which is make sure you pair The Family Proclamation with The Living Christ document so when you feel the pain of not of having less than the ideal, you can now turn to the answer, which is the second document that comes just, well, five years later.

Hank Smith: 00:08:22 Also, I was going to say, the word entitled is rarely used.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:08:27 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:08:29 It’s often a negative thing that you feel entitled.

John Bytheway: 00:08:33 That’s a good point.

Hank Smith: 00:08:34 You feel entitled. And then here. I think that if the prophets and the Lord are going to use this word, we better look carefully, “That children are entitled to birth within the bonds of matrimony.” If someone has an innate and it’s declared by God, we better be careful with that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:08:54 Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Hank.

John Bytheway: 00:08:56 When they’re most vulnerable, when they’re completely helpless and they have no say in it, as you said, Jenet and they’re entitled to be reared by a father and mother who honor marital vows, that’s the ideal, that’s what we’re shooting for.

Hank Smith: 00:09:10 I would just say, wrapped in one sentence. “Happiness in family life is most likely  to be achieved when founded upon the teachings of the Lord, Jesus Christ.” That is a lifetime worth of study in one sentence.

Hank Smith: 00:09:22 I teach the New Testament. We’ve gone through the Doctrine and Covenants this year. There’s so many other scriptures. Just the phrase, “The teachings of the Lord, Jesus Christ,” is enough to give you… There you go. You’ve got 80 years worth of study.

John Bytheway: 00:09:38 It’s a lifetime effort.

Hank Smith: 00:09:38 Yeah. I talked to a woman the other day. Her name is Verla Sorensen and she’s 88. She reads the entire standard works every year and the Book of Mormon twice every year. Every year.

Hank Smith: 00:09:58 She is looking for the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. She said, “I want to know. I want to know.” If anybody out there thinks, “Well, I think I know the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ pretty well.” I think there’s a lot we could do. There’s a lot we could do there. So Verla, this is a shout out to you.

John Bytheway: 00:10:16 Give me her contact info. I have some questions.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:10:19 Yeah, I know you have.

John Bytheway: 00:10:21 When I have, I’ll get with her. She reads them every year.

Hank Smith: 00:10:24 She says she’s gone through the entire thing 47 times.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:10:28 Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:10:28 47 times.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:10:29 Wow. Hank, I…

Hank Smith: 00:10:31 Sorry, Jenet. I cut you off. What were you going to say?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:10:33 I just love that. I love this truth that the Savior I’ll… I was 34. We were 34 when we were married and what a miracle to find each other and I’ll never forget within that first three weeks of marriage, when you encounter some struggles or vulnerabilities and sensitivities and all that I’d studied, I would think, “Here, it all comes down to the truths of the Lord Jesus Christ,” that those teaching in the Sermon on the Mount, of all that He teaches, about turning the other cheek and patience and  love, but then also honesty and not judging and all of the profound teachings that are there.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:11:06 I just thought it’s all encapsulated there. If I were to tell anybody throughout the world, what’s the best way to have a marriage, it’s stated right here. It is founded upon the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. What a gift.

Hank Smith: 00:11:21 I’ve told my students. We get married in the temple, over an altar. If we are over an altar that represents sacrifice, usually represents the Atonement. You are there getting… You are declaring to the world, you are basing your marriage on the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:11:40 That’s where we’re going to bond right here. We are going to make our covenants right here on an altar. And then also, the altar means sacrifice, that happy marriages often mean sacrifice and they’re built upon sacrifice.

John Bytheway: 00:11:53 It’s not all about you anymore, right?

Hank Smith: 00:11:54 Right.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:11:56 You were speaking of Elder Hafen, John, I think he quotes Elder Maxwell as saying, “What is that sacrifice? What is it that we sacrifice?” And of course we know the broken heart and contrite spirit, but he says, “The animal in each of us is what we are laying on that altar.” And thinking about myself, how marriage and children exposed to us the animal in each of us and the hope-

John Bytheway: 00:12:18 Vistas of it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:12:20 Vistas. Yes. And how the Savior says, “I will take it. I will purify it. I will cleanse it. I will change it and give it back to you in a whole way for your relationships so that you can have joy in relationships.”

Hank Smith: 00:12:34 Jenet, is that why the life of the first child is so different from the life of the last child?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:12:40 And Hank, we only have been sent too and I think the poor burned pancakes, it takes at least two pancakes to get it right. I’m like, “Bless us. Bless them.”

Hank Smith: 00:12:49 That’s so funny. Yeah. I’m the burnt pancake. That’s the oldest term. Because I just remember, I’ve learned so much and by the time we’re on baby four and five, John, you got to baby six, we had changed as people. The process of parenting has changed us entirely.

John Bytheway: 00:13:07 I like our friend Jack Marshall talks about with the first baby, if they spit the binky out, you go rinse it off in the sink and maybe put some Listerine on it, make sure it’s disinfected, and plug it back in the baby’s mouth. The last baby, it falls in the dog dish, you don’t care. They’ve got antibodies, don’t worry about it.

Hank Smith: 00:13:32 You find out these little humans are pretty durable.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:13:36 Thankfully. Right? Thankfully.

Hank Smith: 00:13:37 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:13:39 That next part. Hank, maybe you want to read about happiness in family life? After that part, successful marriages as it starts.

Hank Smith: 00:13:45 Sure. “Successful marriages and families are established and maintained on principles of faith, prayer, repentance, forgiveness, respect, love, compassion, work, and wholesome recreational activities.

Hank Smith: 00:14:00 By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and protection for their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children. In these sacred responsibilities, fathers and mothers are obligated to help one another as equal partners.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:14:23 If we go back to that beautiful list, isn’t it so profound that it starts with faith? We’ve just been talking about faith. I love that. Remember faith. And I love that verse in Section 130, where we’re taught, “There is a law irrevocably decreed, upon which all blessings are predicated.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:14:40 I think I love President Nelson talking about the many laws, that we obey laws and there are blessings that come, but it says a law and it’s beautiful to think, “What is that one law? Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, every good thing comes from obedience to that law.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:14:56 With all of our need for healing, with our need for hope and getting into marriage, that it is faith that takes you through that. It’s what carries us through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whatever Jesus, Howard W. Hunters says, “Whatever Jesus lays his hands on will live.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:15:13 And so at that altar with the family being formed, it is with Jesus Christ at the foundation. So of course it starts with faith. Faith is the first principle. Then you’ve got prayer and all the data on prayer, it is just…

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:15:29 President Hinckley would say, “I know of no other practice,” and his wonderful voice. Maybe John could do it. “That will have so salutary effect upon your lives as will the practice of kneeling together in prayer.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:15:41 There’s this great scholar. He’s not a Latter-day Saint, Frank Fincham. He’s done his career looking at these things that people do kind of in their religious practices and what they mean for marriage and prayer is incredible.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:15:55 They’ll put people in experimental groups. You pray for three weeks and you don’t pray for three weeks and it’s just really interesting how he’ll say what it does is it shifts them from a focus on their own needs to the needs of the relationship and the behaviors that will be beneficial. It builds trust, it softens conflict resolution, it facilitates emotional connection. It’s just beautiful to look at what prayer can do for couples.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:16:24 He’ll say praying as an individual, so maybe your spouse doesn’t pray with you, but praying as an individual has powerful effects, praying as a couple has powerful effects. To see in science, literally the power of God come into a relationship through prayer is a beautiful thing to witness.

John Bytheway: 00:16:44 And family prayer. My dad came from a place where, until his quadruple bypass, I don’t remember him ever saying, “I love you.” Maybe I could count them on one hand. We knew he did. We’re not damaged, but in prayer, when everybody had their eyes closed, he could mutter things about how he loved his kids. That was so cool.

John Bytheway: 00:17:10 I can remember because dad was great on, “Gather around the bed. We’re having family prayer.” Some of my greatest memories, as odd as it sounds, is when somebody during family prayer and this could sound really odd, would start to laugh and we could feel the whole bed shaking.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:17:31 John, we are not surprised those are favorite memories for you.

John Bytheway: 00:17:34 We’d look up and we’d see that it was dad who was cracking up.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:17:38 He was cracking up all-

John Bytheway: 00:17:39 It bonded us together in a family prayer because now my mom was, “You guys…”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:17:50 Be reverent.

John Bytheway: 00:17:50 You laugh right now. But my poor dad just… He would start laughing, but he could tell us he loved us in a family prayer in different ways, that was a little harder face-to-face because of his own background. I want to put a plugin for family prayer too. You can talk to your kids in prayer and tell the Lord how much you love them in a family prayer. They’ll be listening.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:18:16 It is powerful.

Hank Smith: 00:18:17 In John 17, the Savior does that. In the Intercessory Prayer, He talks about the apostles who are listening to Him pray and He compliments them. He uses prayer to build the people who are listening to the prayer. He says, “Father, they’re not of the world just like I’m not of the world.” He’s building these people.

John Bytheway: 00:18:35 Oh. And then 3 Nephi, the joy that filled our hearts when we heard him pray for us the way they say.

Hank Smith: 00:18:42 That can happen in our families.

John Bytheway: 00:18:43 He’s talking about me right now. Yeah, we can do that for each other in our families. You can thank the Lord for my wife sitting here. I can thank the Lord for each of my children by name and have them hear that and feel it. I love that there’s research on that, Jenet. That’s so cool.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:18:59 It is awesome research. It’s just really fun to see that. When you hear President Eyring talk about when you pray… A family that’s praying, even if they’re separated geographically, they are one in heart.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:19:10 I don’t know how many times I’ve had students say what it meant to them as missionaries to know their parents were praying for them, that their family was gathered in prayer for them, the power that, that gave them, the security, the strength. It just is real. It’s real and we see it in the data.

John Bytheway: 00:19:27 Yeah. I just say amen to this thing about a prayer.

Hank Smith: 00:19:31 Thank you. I remember President Monson’s son saying he was out fishing with him once and as they were just sitting there fishing, President Monson, looked at his watch and said, “Your brother is about to take the bar exam. Why don’t we say a prayer for him. I’ll pray and then you go ahead and pray.”

Hank Smith: 00:19:52 He said, “That’s what I remember about my dad is that he’d use prayer…” It wasn’t a, “Okay. It’s time for bed, let’s pray.” It wasn’t, “Okay, it’s in the morning. Let’s pray.” I’m sure they did that. But it was a practical use in life of how we’re going to connect our family and all over the globe. John, you’ve had your kids in France and in Iceland.

John Bytheway: 00:20:15 Iceland, during a pandemic.

Hank Smith: 00:20:17 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:20:18 Can’t leave the apartment.

Hank Smith: 00:20:19 The foreign nation of Tucson.

John Bytheway: 00:20:23 Tucson. Yeah. Hopefully off to Tahiti soon. But yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:20:27 The prayers, they’re still included.

John Bytheway: 00:20:30 Just this morning for my girl in Tucson. I’m thinking too of… Do you remember the Elder Neal A. Maxwell story? He’s in the front lines in World War II.

John Bytheway: 00:20:44 His mother, apparently across the planet, “Get out of bed. We’ve got to get underneath. We’ve got to pray for Neal right now.” And he put those time frames together and found that was at a scary time for him just… I love that there’s research on that. That’s really interesting.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:21:03 I think it changes us and brings unity. It brings miracles. There’s no question, but it changes our hearts in the process of praying. That’s what enables those family relationships to be strengthened.

John Bytheway: 00:21:17 Who are we praying to our Father?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:21:18 Yes. Our Father.

John Bytheway: 00:21:21 We’re all brothers and sisters. I love it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:21:23 Then you have repentance. Just the research on… You look at someone like John Gottman, the guru of marriage and him talking about what it is that predicts divorce and what leads to divorce. You see these features of blame and defensiveness and this link between shame and the inability to be accountable for what you’re doing and take responsibility, that kind of… Diffusing your anxiety fusing and you just think, “This is all the research on relationships. It’s coming back to repentance, these truths about repentance, being able to say, ‘I’m sorry.’ And own one’s responsibility for things.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:22:02 To not enter a world of shame that leads to blame and defensiveness. But to say, “This is what I’ve done. And I apologize. And I’m sorry. And I’m so thankful for a Savior who makes this a safe process for us to grow.” Anyway, it’s just all over in family relationships, what repentance means.

John Bytheway: 00:22:21 Do you know who Kenneth W. Matheson is? I have a book called Living a Covenant Marriage that was edited by Doug Brinley and Dan Judd that’s down there. I just remember underlining in Kenneth Matheson’s chapter, I believe he said, “If I can just get a couple to apologize to each other, my problems are almost solved if I could get that spirit repentance in there.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:22:50 Yes. It’s the crux, right?

John Bytheway: 00:22:53 As a marriage counselor. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:22:55 Faith for prayer, repentance and forgiveness. 

John Bytheway: 00:22:58 Yeah. You’ve got to connect those two.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:23:01 Yes. And Frank Fincham he’s done work on forgiveness as well and that is a really powerful set of data on the power of forgiveness, which we know from the gospel.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:23:10 But it isn’t that beautiful sequence. There’s repentance and forgiveness and they depend upon one another. That they go together.

Hank Smith: 00:23:21 Respect comes next, which is almost as if Jenet, it’s saying repentance, forgiveness and respect is part of this, if not committing that same sin over and over and over without boundaries.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:23:34 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:23:34 Right. That there’s a respect there that I correct these problems.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:23:37 Yes. Yes. You know how President Hinckley, he would talk so much about respect being the foundation of marriage. The core characteristic you need is respect for one another. You think that description of a young man we know right from the early Christian text, when Adam saw her, he couldn’t help but stand.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:23:59 It’s this feeling of I am better because of you. But that isn’t right. When you’re bothered and irritated, you might forget the divinity of the person in front of you, that’s given their soul to you.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:24:12 Reminding, I think intentionally, Hank, so Gottman will say, those four horsemen of the apocalypse of a marriage, the four predictors of divorce and it’s incredible he can predict divorce with 95% accuracy within five years. He has just an incredible science around it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:24:26 But he would say, “When there is criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling,” stonewalling is when you just walk away, you won’t even engage. I can’t stand this so much I’m walking away. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, apocalypse of the marriage: criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling and contempt it’s that eye rolling. It’s mocking.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:24:57 Defensiveness is saying-

Hank Smith: 00:24:58 “You’re so dumb.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:24:59 “Yeah, you did it. You did it.” And not taking responsibility. Stonewalling is, “I can’t even sit in here and talk to you about this because it’s…” He’ll just say, when he teaches us, I’ll think, “This is what you watch for.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:25:12 When you enter and it’s… We all can. We can all enter into that world of criticism, just bugged as can be at this person that we love so much and being on guard to respect that person and stay away from attributes that are not respectful.

John Bytheway: 00:25:31 Isn’t it interesting, I think in our marriage, we feel like if everything’s okay in the marriage, we can deal with almost anything else out there in the world because I have this refuge to go home to.

John Bytheway: 00:25:40 My marriage is intact. I’m crazy about my wife. I love my wife and… It’s just so nice to have that rock when other things out there are difficult and finances and pandemics and earthquakes and riots and fires but I have this refuge with my wife, with our marriage.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:26:02 It’s meant to be that way.

Hank Smith: 00:26:05 Jenet, I wanted to ask you about respect for children. This is one that I’ve… I find it fascinating and I’ve had to learn over the years that just because someone is a child does not mean you can disrespect them, talk to them the way you would never talk to anyone else. Just because they’re your child and I find myself sometimes falling into that trap of you’re my child and I would never talk to another child this way. Ever. But I would talk to my own child that way. It seems disrespectful.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:26:33 Yes. That has been very painful for myself and something to face in myself. I’ve been thinking a lot about Section 121 and what we learn all throughout the Doctrine and Covenants. I was just hearing Barb Gardner talk about this, but where power comes from, the Lord is teaching us all throughout the Doctrine and Covenants about what his power is like and how it’s used.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:26:54 He’s wanting to endow with power and  that power. And then in Section 121, he says, “No power or influence except through these beautiful virtues: Patience, long-suffering, meekness, gentleness, love unfeigned, kindness, pure knowledge.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:27:09 Hank, I read it and I think I cannot have influence in the lives of these people who I care so deeply about unless it is through God’s way. When I speak disrespectfully, which I do and repent of, try to repent of. But when I do, I am not drawing on the source of true power and influence. He’s teaching us about parenting. That’s what he’s teaching us and how we influence one another is based in his way. When we don’t do it that way, we’re outside of that source of power. He’ll thank you. It is respect.

Hank Smith: 00:27:45 John, you will laugh at this. I have a distinct memory of my daughter who is now 17, as a six-year-old, she was six. We were having a discussion in which I was being disrespectful to her.

Hank Smith: 00:27:58 She put her hands on her hips, I remember. She said, “How come you sound so nice on your talks?” And I remember that moment of, “Hey, ouch.” “How come you sound so nice on those CDs?” She said.

John Bytheway: 00:28:14 I have my talks quoted back to me all the time too because I’ve got a big mouth that’s got me in trouble. But Jenet, what you said, because we’re talking about repentance and we kind of focused on marriage, but I found there’s such power in repenting to my kids.

John Bytheway: 00:28:30 You guys, I lost it there when the house was like this or sorry about that. I think that’s an element of respect, repenting to my kids for. That they see, “Look guys, I’m the same. We’re all trying to live the gospel and I’m down too.”

Hank Smith: 00:28:50 I wonder if every parent has had those moments where the child is now asleep, sitting by their bed, just saying, “I am so sorry. I’m so sorry. Look at you. You’re so sweet and wonderful and look what I did.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:03 Isn’t there a great story from Elder Holland-

John Bytheway: 00:29:06 They really are when they’re asleep. They’re so cute when they’re asleep.

Hank Smith: 00:29:09 That’s so sweet. He said he got after his child. He’s now a General Authority.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:29:13 Matt.

Hank Smith: 00:29:14 Yeah. Matt. He got after him-

John Bytheway: 00:29:15 Yes. I remember this story.

Hank Smith: 00:29:15 What did he say, John? Later on, he had a dream and the Lord said, “I would never treat you that way.” You treat your son.

John Bytheway: 00:29:29 Didn’t he mention the look that he got from Patt?

Hank Smith: 00:29:32 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:29:33 Yeah. That’s the dagger. He was just like, “Now, I’ve got to fix my marriage and my kids.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:29:40 I wish I could say that it only happened once, I think Elder Holland but I’m so grateful for this Plan of Redemption and not the plan of perfection in the family.

John Bytheway: 00:29:50 I wrote that down. That is so good.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:29:51 I need that.

John Bytheway: 00:29:53 It’s a redemption.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:29:53 You think that is what family… We’ve never been in families before. We’ve never been parents before. We’ve never been married before. We haven’t had this emotional experience before and we need redemption and how bonding it is to apologize.

John Bytheway: 00:30:06 I tell my kids that, “This is my first time as a father.” I tell them all. “You guys. Am I doing… This is my first pandemic. Am I doing this right?”

Hank Smith: 00:30:13 It’s great.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:30:18 That next set is love and I think we’ve highlighted if… Here’s President Kimball, “If two people love the Lord more than their own lives and then love each other more than their own lives, working together in total harmony with the gospel program as their basic structure, they are sure to have this great happiness.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:30:39 This, I think, General Conference theme of, “Love the Lord with all our hearts, my mind and strength and loving our neighbors ourselves.”

John Bytheway: 00:30:47 Boy, wasn’t that a theme?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:30:48 Such a theme. It’s something we intentionally choose, right? I don’t always feel those feelings. I don’t always feel like saying, “I love you.” What a beautiful thing that this is agency, the Lord is talking about an agency based love.

John Bytheway: 00:31:07 Love is a verb.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:31:07 Act of love. Love is a verb. Yes. Thankfully. Love is repentance. Love is a verb.

Hank Smith: 00:31:14 Yeah. There’s no falling in love, falling out of love like we had nothing to do with it. It just happened to me versus I choose to love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:31:21 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:31:22 Do you know Hank? I’m glad you said that because when I’ve tried to talk to Young Adults about what does it mean to fall in love? Most of our education has come from songs on the radio and TV shows, which is the worst possible database imaginable.

John Bytheway: 00:31:36 I researched this because like Jenet, I was 33 the day I got married and I was like, “What the heck is wrong with me?” And I’m reading and I found these beautiful statements by President Benson, by President Kimball. When I boiled it down, I felt like you find someone that you respect and admire and that’s lasting.

John Bytheway: 00:32:02 I’m so glad respect is in there because I, to this day, respect and admire my wife and feelings of love can go up and down and I’m thankful I still have them. But respect and admiration is what I tell my Young Adults and my kids now to look for. Someone you respect and admire who makes you want to be a better person and they can respect and admire you. When that’s mutual, that’s just awesome.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:32:31 Jason Carroll, who’s such a wonderful scholar in love and marriage, he’ll say. He’ll talk about… We get the fruits and the roots mixed up. Love is the fruit of loving, of that agency based, it’s the fruit of actions and what you’ve described there, respect, that it breeds that love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:32:53 We talk about falling in love, it really is choosing who you’re going to choose to love every day. That’s an important choice. You want someone you want to choose to love every day. But it is going to be a choice to love and I think Hank, as you say for children as well, like choosing to act in love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:33:14 That next part is compassion. I love Brené Brown. She’ll say the way you get rid of shame is compassion. Compassion is the connection. Empathy is the way to repentance kind of a path of that. And then we get to work.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:33:34 I had the privilege of working with Kathleen Bahr, who was a scholar on family work. When we say family, we’re literally talking about dishes, laundry, all those things that are part of family life that are just dismissed as being this entropic, have to redo over and over and over again and what in the world is this all about?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:33:54 Her scholarship on this, she would start with that scripture of Adam and Eve, “Being cursed shall be the ground for thy sake.” And it’s role in family life. She has this list. She’d say family work gives us endless opportunities to recognize and fill the needs of others. It is an endless opportunity to enact love. We just talked about love and just doing the dishes and caring for one another and doing that kind of work together is an endless call to an act of love.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:34:25 The second thing she’ll say is it leaves us, it’s the kind of work you can do with your hands and talk at the same time and connect and all the conversations that are possible because your hands, your mind is free in this kind of mindless work that family life is made up of so much of. How many important conversations happen over laundry and over dishes and over that?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:34:47 Gardening is important. She’ll say watching children, a wise mom, a child at dinner struggling, she could tell. So she wisely calls the child to work beside her, pulls the chair up at the sink and they’d ask at dinner, what’s bothering you. He wouldn’t say it. A Six-year-old boy wouldn’t say what was bothering him. But there beside her at the sink with hierarchy dissolved because you are standing beside one another in this work together, how his heart was opened to ask the question he’d been worried about.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:35:19 Family work has this way of dissolving boundaries because we’re all doing it together and there’s nobody better or worse or higher or lower. That opens conversation. Even the smallest child can make a contribution. My little sister, Sally, she’d wake up late, her job was to set the table and I remember her saying, getting up late one day and saying, “No one could eat if I didn’t set the table.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:35:41 Just that feeling of, I matter so much and I know I matter because I have a job to do these tasks to do. She would just say it has the power. These are daily rituals of family, love and belonging. You know you’re in a family names written up to do vacuuming, because the guest name isn’t written up there. You know that you belong and that it’s this power to transform us spiritually as we work to serve one another physically.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:36:11 I think, I just feel so grateful for her view. Even though it’s not always fun, I can just say at my house, I’ll have those beautiful truths in my mind and think this is not fun working alongside each other, trying to get this child to participate or trying to write. But somehow having a view for the potential that it can have in our family life is a blessing.

John Bytheway: 00:36:30 I’m thinking of sitting in Primary, singing those songs that they were trying to convince me of something that was counterintuitive. (singing) But I’m like, “No. When I’m helping, I’m not that happy.”

Hank Smith: 00:36:46 This is not true. That’s so great.

John Bytheway: 00:36:50 I see what you’re trying to do here, Primary teacher, but…

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:36:54 Aren’t you so grateful it ends with, “Wholesome recreational activities?” I think that the data on that is just incredible. They’ll talk about this experience of flow that happens between people when they’re engaged in something that’s physically a little bit demanding and also meaningful in terms of a goal that they’re completing together and there’s this bonding that happens.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:37:16 It can be as simple as all the things you probably naturally are dancing in the kitchen and laughing and telling jokes and all of that, relieving from the burden of everyday kind of life that this lifting us to recreation, to being recreated together, renewed together. I love that.

Hank Smith: 00:37:38 That’s fantastic. Yeah. Just going out for that Sunday bike ride or-

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:37:42 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:37:44 I ask my kids, you can spend a boatload on Christmas presents, but then you ask them, “What was your favorite part?” “It’s when you sat down and played a game with me. It wasn’t the bike. It was a little bit of time.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:38:02 That General Authority who describes taking their family on a big trip, I think it was a Church History trip of some kind.

John Bytheway: 00:38:07 It was. Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:38:08 And at the end, as the son is there, laying down looking at the stars and this son talking about, “It was time with you, dad, that meant everything.” I love that, John. Not the trip, not the big events but these that are the recreating of our relationships.

Hank Smith: 00:38:25 The moment we just chatted.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:38:27 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:38:28 We just did something together and talked.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:38:30 Hank, you went ahead and read that beautiful part about fathers asked to preside over their families of love and righteousness and mothers and it lists those three Ps: preside, provide, protect.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:38:46 I think the data on this is so interesting that when you look at… I can just quote a couple of powerful things but when you think about the role of fathers in providing, sometimes we diminish that because there can be this. A woman can provide as well and earn money and has many opportunities to do that today.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:39:06 We surpassed women having more jobs than men in January of 2019 in the United States. But when we look at where children thrive and the effects of poverty on children’s wellbeing and the effects of single parenthood with relationship to poverty and children’s wellbeing, you just cannot overestimate the significant work of fathers in providing. It is so powerful and important.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:39:34 I think for women, so often I’ve done lots of data on what women’s preferences are in terms of work. You’ll find out that women that have the greatest amount of choice, meaning they’re married to someone who is providing, they’re not the primary provider, their choice is not typically to work full-time.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:39:51 Some do and enjoy that, but they want to be able to be free to care for their children and prioritize the needs of their children, where they feel irreplaceable. That providing that a father and a husband does is incredibly, incredibly beneficial to mothers and children.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:40:10 I think we can underestimate that.

Hank Smith: 00:40:13 And you’re speaking from research right now.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:40:16 Yes, yes.

Hank Smith: 00:40:17 Yeah.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:40:18 Then there’s protection. There’s something very interesting about the role of fathers in protecting just by their sheer size, their voice, their presence in that family.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:40:31 Researchers will describe it. It’s like they signal to… They just signal to potential predators, “This child is going to be protected.” You were talking about fatherlessness, John. One of the interesting data points is what father’s presence in the life of a daughter means in terms of her sexual trajectory.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:40:51 Some will say, “His presence literally sets the sexual trajectory of her life.” Meaning her likelihood of engaging in relationships that would be destructive to her too early or with people that would not be good. It’s like he signals and gives her… It’s like she walks out of the door, even if he’s not there, that dad’s not there beside her, with a sense of what she should expect from the men who are around her. And a sense that I am protected by a father who monitors, cares and watches over me.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:41:27 Men are very important in signaling that protection. It’s really beautiful. And then of course, we have that presiding and I love tackling presiding because presiding is a tricky word. We get this notion of president and he’s like… There’s one that makes the decisions. I think we can get a sense from the Church that what it means to preside is that he is the ultimate decision-maker, the bishop or the stake president.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:41:55 The truth is in marriage, it’s a partnership of equals. There is no president. When you kneel at the altar, you kneel as equals. There’s that beautiful triangle. Christ in the center, and you are equal. And the authority is outside both of you. It lies in God. There’s some powerful statements.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:42:15 “A husband and wife are equal.” This is from the Handbook. One should not dominate the other. Their decisions should be made in unity and love with full participation of both. Adam and Eve set an example for husbands and wives. I think right there from the beginning, you have Eve seeking greater light and knowledge. She partakes the fruit and she comes to Adam. She explains why and he hearkens to her.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:42:43 In a sense, she is dependent on him offering those beautiful ordinances of salvation through his priesthood keys that allow her access to eternal life. And so you see this beautiful interdependence. She enables life procreation, the creation of life. He enables access to eternal life through sacred ordinances and covenants.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:43:04 So in some ways it’s these beautiful interdependent equals that Adam and Eve show off, this rib metaphor. They are equal side by side and perfect complementarity and equality in their relationship, hearkening to one another, coming to a decision together. Yet there’s an interdependence in that he depends on her for this life to come and she depends on him for the ordinances of salvation. He presides in offering those ordinances of salvation to his family, blessings and baptism and confirmation and ordination. She offers life, this continuation of life.

John Bytheway: 00:43:45 Beautiful. I was at a Timeout for Women, Cincinnati, I think. It could be 10, 15, 20… My memory is short. I don’t know when it was. But this woman, we had a panel. We used to do a Q & A. They stopped doing that but this woman stood up and said, “How can we get our husbands to take the lead in family home evening and scripture study?”

John Bytheway: 00:44:13 Soon as she asked the question, 2,000 women’s heads nodded. I don’t know if that attitude has changed and maybe this is dangerous ground. But I just thought there was a time when, and I have Elder Oaks, talking about the fathers, the Lord has given you this responsibility to lead your family in family prayer, things like that. Is that still where we’re at? Do you see what I’m asking?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:44:41 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:44:41 Do women still feel that way?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:44:43 John, we are actually trying to unpack this right now with some research to look at how preside has been talked about across the history of the Church and Church teachings because of this very question. I think the word preside can be threatening to women.

John Bytheway: 00:44:56 Yeah. Because of unrighteous dominion. There are men who have used priesthood to say, “I’m in charge.” And have been bad about it. Have been wildly inappropriate about it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:45:07 Inherited traditions that way, right? But John, I think women are asking, “When it says preside it says what it means to nurture  ….is he actually saying you are the primary gospel teacher in the home”. That was 2019. I was like, “Did he just say that?”

John Bytheway: 00:45:23 Wow. Interesting.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:45:24 I think it’s interesting we’ve assumed some responsibilities that way, that may not be. So in the Handbook, it says presiding in the family is the responsibility to help lead family members back to dwell in God’s presence. This is done by serving and teaching with gentleness, meekness and pure love following the example of Jesus Christ.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:45:47 Presiding in the family includes leading family members in regular prayer, gospel study and other aspects of worship. It is highlighting fathers as presiders and ensuring these things happen. That’s from the Handbook of Instruction.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:46:03 Then it says, “Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children.” To nurture means to nourish, teach and support following the example of this Savior. So in both cases, it says, “Following the example of Jesus Christ.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:46:18 In unity with her husband, a mother helps her family learn gospel truths and develop faith in heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. Together, they foster an environment of love in the family. So in the Handbook, it does distinguish fathers helping lead family members in prayer and gospel studies and other aspects.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:46:39 But it talks about them both being nurturers in gospel instruction, helping learn gospel truths. They’re both primary gospel teachers in a sense and he’s given that special responsibility of ensuring that these structural pieces are in place. The family prayer and family scripture study and other aspects of worship.

John Bytheway: 00:47:01 I’m glad for that source, the Handbook, because as a bishop, this is what mothers were complaining about. At Time Out for Women, it seemed the entire audience was saying, “Our husbands don’t take the lead the way they should.” Or they were nodding in unity with their fellow sisters who were dealing with it.

John Bytheway: 00:47:20 If I could erase one book from the planet that I wrote, just because of the title, because I thought the content was okay, but I called it Behind Every Good Man. I got excoriated from some people just for that title. Yet, I was responding to the women who were saying, “How do we get our husbands to lead?” That was their question. And so I tried to answer it and oh my goodness, they thought I should be shot and drawn and quartered and killed, beaten with sticks and garbage and everything else for suggesting it.

John Bytheway: 00:47:53 But I thought that’s what they were asking. We’re trying to get our husbands to lead and we’ll be behind him as in I’m behind you all the way, not subservient. The title was maybe misconstrued. It was a bad choice of words, but… I’m really glad to hear that reference from the Handbook. But that question still comes up.

John Bytheway: 00:48:10 We can’t get our husbands to take the lead. I have always felt like even if I just say, “Everybody, come downstairs. We’re doing family…” My wife is so appreciative, even if I’m just sending the message, this matters to me, family prayer matters to me and that she wants the kids to see that family prayer matters to dad and family home evening matters to dad.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:48:35 It feels like women are… They tend to feel they’re doing so much to orchestrate family life. They feel so responsible, getting children signed up for the activities and homework and lunches and whatever else. To have him say, “I am going to make sure this happens and I’m going to do it in a way that is with love and uniqueness and gentleness. I’m going to call us to…”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:49:00 That lifts a burden. I do believe that. Maybe the question is how we decide those things because the challenge, it’s interesting that the preeminent principle here is equal partnerships. We have these stewardships, but the preeminent principle, the overarching principle is equal partnership. If it ever feels like in his presiding, there’s some inequality, you’ve botched it.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:49:29 I think that has to do with deciding together. Maybe it’s as simple as deciding together, just saying, as a husband and wife, it would help me if you did this. This is how I feel. If you took… And deciding that process together, so you feel like you bet. We’ve been equals in making the decisions. And if she decides actually I want to do the calling for family prayer, whatever, if that’s what seems to be best for their family, because you’re gone or for whatever else, we’ve worked that out together.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:49:58 So it wasn’t one person deciding, it was us making decisions about how we do family things together. Who’s helping with the dishes? Who’s earning? All those things are kind of brought out into the open as we want to create this equal partnership in collaborating around this family together.

John Bytheway: 00:50:16 Do you think women would still ask that question today, “How do I get my husband to take the lead in home evening family prayer.” I’m curious because that could have been 15, 20 years ago. But boy, that was the number one question we used to get.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:50:32 That’s so interesting.

John Bytheway: 00:50:34 We can’t get our husbands to do their job.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:50:38 This is what feels like it’s easy… I think actually it’s a perpetual question. I think when this is what’s hard for a woman is she’ll feel like, “We want to have this happen.” And I actually feel bad, like I’m overstepping to call the family for prayer.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:50:54 When President Eyring says, “You don’t need to feel like you’re behind him in being the primary gospel instructor. You’re responsible for that.” And then she feels like okay, I love it if you did this, but I’m going to make this happen and I’m not going to feel bad about making sure this happens.

Hank Smith: 00:51:11 Nor should I.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:51:12 Nor should I. Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:51:12 Yeah. But there’s so many husbands, if their wives take over, they’ll just let them and then they’re the ones who raise their hands and ask the question. I think the good thing that’s happened of all of this discussion is the phrase in here that’s so important is they do this as equal partners.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:51:32 Yes. Equal partnership is the preeminent and overarching principle. Nurturing and presiding are subservient to equal partnership. That’s just the truth. These stewardships are equally sacred, equally important. Here’s President Ballard, “Do not of any false ideas about domination or subordination. Each stewardship is essential for the spiritual progression of all family members, parents, and children alike.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:51:58 We’ve talked about presiding and providing and protecting, but to underestimate the influence of a mother, I’m going along in research and I get to this statement. This is hundreds of studies. I get to the statement that says, “Maternal sensitivity.” That’s a measure of maternal responsiveness, maternal engagement. It’s not being a perfect mother it’s, but it’s someone who’s responding to emotions and not being intrusive too much, that kind of thing.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:52:24 It’s the strongest most consistent predictor of a child’s cognitive social and emotional development. John, you know how much fathers mean, but literally from the birth of that infant and even in utero, we can now watch. Neuro-biological data allows us to watch the brain growth of that infant. Now, researchers will say that growth happens from within a relationship. It can only happen from within a relationship and it’s a mother’s body, mind and heart, literally growing the body, mind and heart of that infant.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:53:03 You can watch how her right brain, which is the emotion side of the brain, the moral side of the brain, the relational side of the brain is doubling in size in that first year and it’s literally her right brain to that infant’s right brain is having this incredible communication process.

John Bytheway: 00:53:21 This is so interesting.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:53:21 It is so amazing. It’s not the language side of the brain. It’s not flashcards and teaching them words and all of that. It’s literally from heart to heart, this language of love these authors out of Berkeley will say. Through the language of love, the two of them have a common language years before speech where that brain is literally growing.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:53:43 And then dad, dad’s influence steps in really powerfully in that 18 month to two year period where you see his relationship with that infant having a really… That toddler now, having a very important impact. They kind of in sequence play very significant roles that are complementary in the development of that, from the foundations of life. When a prophet says, President McKay, she leaves a stamp on the development. She awakens the light of Christ within that infant. That is literally what is happening in neurological development.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:54:22 We can’t diminish what she means in the nurturing of life. I think women have a sense for that. They have a sense of how significant that relationship is. It’s not to diminish men. In fact, if you could just… For me, I’ll think that watching the complementary relationship between men and women, you’ll hear this, when a woman has an infant, she’s holding that infant, she coos and cuddles. What does a man do with the same infant? He tickles and tosses that infant.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:54:53 Both of them are experiencing this flood of oxytocin, which is the bonding hormone. My husband, who’d never been around a baby. He’s an only child. He has no young cousins. He’d never seen anything like that. Within just days of us bringing her home from the hospital, he’s doing calisthenics with her and I’m like, “What are you doing with her?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:55:12 And then for me to study, he’s having a flood of oxytocin, which is this bonding hormone. He’s forming a bond with her. I am. And the same hormone in each of us elicits different behavior. In me, it elicits cooing and cuddling, a wrapping around.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:55:27 In him, it elicits stimulation, excitement, openness to the outside world. You just see that all across development. You see fathers, mothers will hold… They’ll have a child and they’ll be talking to the red ball that’s in front of them and they’ll describe it. The mom will say, “It’s red, it’s a ball.” Dad takes it, bops them on the head with it or bops them on the belly with it. The same ball.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:55:48 Both of them have this remarkable complimentary way of influencing the domains of development, their social development, their cognitive development, their emotional development in distinct and absolutely foundational fundamental ways.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:56:05 It’s not really who’s working or earning the money. We think about that kind of roles, but all this power that’s happening just in their physiological makeup that invites them to interact in ways that allow for development to be whole. Dads, you’ll watch too, parents behind a child helping them with a math test. They’re having a little test and the mom will step in, “Remember how to do this? Remember how you add these questions together?” She does that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:56:31 He’s sitting beside the same child and says, “You can do it. You got this. And you know how to…” Doesn’t step in. And so you’ll see… Some scholars, Andrew Doxey would say, you watch dads, he’ll say to that child, “Put your own backpack on. Make your own lunch.” And the mom’s like, “What kind of sandwich do you want?”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:56:48 And the dad will say, “Make it. You know how to make it.” She said, at first it looked like, “Dads are just… What are they? Selfish. Disengaged.” And then saying, nurturing involves two core fundamental processes. It’s holding close and it’s letting go. Dads are particularly adept at facilitating the growth needed for independence.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:57:11 He’ll say, “You can do it. Go higher, go higher up that tree.” She’s saying, “Get down here.” He’s saying, “Go higher. I’m underneath. I’ll catch you.” Encouraging risk taking from a place of safety is what he’s doing. Creating a foundation of security and identity is what she’s doing. Both are really core to healthy development. You see a dad…

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:57:33 One last example. My husband, he would hold the baby and he’d hold her like a football. He’d never watched anybody hold a baby. But as soon as he gets her] in church, he’s holding her like a football. And I’m like, “What are you holding her like that for?” And you see that all the time. Men will tend to hold that baby looking outward at the world and she’s wrapping that infant.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:57:57 And it’s emblematic of what their influence is because dads, John, as you noted, fatherlessness has so much to do with academic achievement. It’s the biggest predictor of college graduation. It’s incarceration rates or related to the presence of a father. It’s how that child relates to the outside world.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:58:16 That mother is building this core and I’m just saying it roughly, but their complimentary capacity to influence development, as emblematic and even the way they’re holding that child is just remarkable. We need them. We need them both in their uniqueness.

John Bytheway: 00:58:38 I love this. This is so interesting and so true.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:58:41 Okay. We end the Proclamation with needing to necessitate adaptation, individual adaptation and that extended families play a role when support is needed.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 00:58:52 I think that’s the whole family of God,families, aunts and uncles, cousins. I love Sister Beck. I remember hearing once Sister Beck share a story, but just how influential the men in the relationship of the family who’d had a father leave, how important those bishops and young men leaders were, their presence in their lives and you just can’t… Who can say what the influence of intact families is on those who aren’t in intact families even if they’re not biologically related, just the power of that example and home and connection.

John Bytheway: 00:59:33 Some of the things I’ve heard recently is the Young Adults are asking, “Why do we need a church again?” And I think you just answered some of that. To have my boys go to church and see a bishop and see young men’s leaders and to do stuff with them is so helpful to reinforce what I’m trying to say, this is what it means to be someone who’s the priesthood, who’s a man, this…

John Bytheway: 01:00:01 And like you just said, so glad that they can come home and admire their Bishop and admire their leaders. I think it’s the true of the Young Women leaders too, that they can see what they’re doing and my daughters can see what the Young Men’s leaders are doing. My sons can see what the Young Women leaders are and how fired up and committed they are to the gospel is a blessing for my family.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:00:26 It’s interesting how much my students will talk about leaders and how they were or coaches or teachers.

John Bytheway: 01:00:32 It’s always my dad, my leaders, my coaches. I hear that all the time.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:00:36 And they’ll say, what I saw in them as a father, what they were like as a father, what they were like as a husband. The power comes in strengthening their relationships. Interesting, right there, capacity to have those kinds of happy relationships.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:00:50 That’s where you really want to be an influence, is helping them know what these beautiful relationships can be like so that they have the opportunity to establish those in their own lives.

Hank Smith: 01:01:02 The one thing I was going to say is this would be a great plug for everyone who wants to hear more about preside is our Episode 31 with Dr. Barbara Morgan Gardner.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:01:15 Oh, that’s wonderful.

Hank Smith: 01:01:16 When we went through Section 84 with her. If you haven’t heard that, if you’re listening to this podcast saying, “I’d love to hear more about this.” Go back into our podcasts and go to section Episode 31 on Section 84 and listen to those because she did a spectacular job of teaching us about men and women and presiding in priesthood. It was spectacular.

John Bytheway: 01:01:37 Absolutely.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:01:37 Hank, thank you for mentioning that. She just, yes, understands this so deeply from a scriptural standpoint. Yes. There’s that, “We warn that individuals who violate covenants of chastity, who abuse, spouse or offspring or who fail to fulfill family responsibilities will one day stand accountable before God.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:01:56 I think that paragraph is just really sobering, for all of us who are struggling to be what we want to be in family life, probably growing in that way. And then those who intentionally participate in destructive acts, it’s a very serious thing, these souls that are given to us, these vulnerable souls that are given to us.

Hank Smith: 01:02:19 That’s interesting. Jenet, it also doesn’t say, “Those who don’t live perfectly.” It doesn’t say that. We warn that individuals who are not perfect parents will stand accountable for that. It’s violating covenants and abuse.

John Bytheway: 01:02:38 I’ve always loved that the Book of Mormon starts out with a dysfunctional family. And if that sounds too strong, “Hey, let’s kill Laban. No, let’s kill… Oh, I’m sorry. Nephi. Let’s kill dad and Nephi], then we’ll all feel better.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:02:52 Pretty dysfunctional.

John Bytheway: 01:02:53 Lehi’s going, “What are you doing?” Sariah is going, “What are you doing Lehi?” “I’m writing all this down.” “What? Our family problems. Who are you going to send that to?” “Every nation, kindred tongue and people.”

John Bytheway: 01:03:05 To me, it gives me comfort that the Book of Mormon starts with a family that had their own ups and downs, their own problems. And the children as different as they are described can come from the same parents and it’s not a perfect family, right, Hank, as you were just saying.

Hank Smith: 01:03:21 Yeah. Right. But he does put a strong boundary up on violating covenants and abusing family members. That’s a very firm boundary for the Lord. It’s a sobering important boundary that is not going to be shied away from.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:03:35 Yes, we have to take it very seriously. Right, Hank? It’s interesting. Around the world when we look at cultures and we see really strong traditions that can be very diminutive and destructive to women. There is just no question that there are patterns that abuse and diminish and do not see women as equals.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:04:00 When we see cultures rejecting marriage, they are rejecting a distortion of what marriage is intended to be. What our Heavenly Parents embody, which is a perfect equality, a beautiful, complementary, a oneness. That is the vision the world needs of marriage. It does not need a vision of traditional problematic gendered ways of dividing and oppressing.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:04:30 It needs a vision that God has given us, our Heavenly Parents of equality. We have to take it very seriously. Women are by nature, physically less strong. They’re less sexually overtly driven. And so they are vulnerable. They are vulnerable to this size and kind of physical power and potential abuses of men just by nature.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:04:57 That’s what the beautiful teachings of priesthood are. This is what this looks like. This is what priesthood power looks like. Both men and women are endowed with priesthood power and the keys that men hold teach them this pattern of service and kindness and respect and honoring and anything, anything that is outside of that is not of God.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:05:20 There’s a lot to work on in the world in terms of understanding equality. I’ll tell my students, “Your generation is tasked with this beautiful task of understanding equality between men and women in ways that have not been understood before.” And it will bring great power into the church and into families.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:05:40 I think it starts with women knowing more who we are and the power that we have been endowed with and what God would call us to do. And then you get this ending statement that says, “We warn that the disintegration of the family will bring on individuals, communities and nations calamities.” And it describes calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:06:05 I think when, when Carle Zimmerman is looking at the rise and fall of nations, the rise and fall of all the great empires and he’s saying, “This hinges on the disintegration of the role of the family in society.” And to take very seriously its core central role in the thriving of individuals, of families and communities, that we depend on families as the foundations. That’s why it says it’s the fundamental unit of society.

Hank Smith: 01:06:37 I looked up the definition of calamity and if you don’t use that word very often, you might not hear the gravity of it. It’s a disastrous event marked by great loss and lasting distress, a state of deep distress or misery caused by major misfortune or loss.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:06:57 Wow.

Hank Smith: 01:06:58 Just so we’re clear on what a calamity is.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:07:01 Just one comment. There was a writer, she’s marvelous, Mary Eberstadt, a Catholic writer. She described during the really intense difficulties, the rioting and very intense difficulties during July of 2020 when we were in the heart of these very big challenges. It was interesting to have her insights on fathers,, the fatherland, the father of a home and the father of nation and the role of these protective institutions and when they’re not in place, so fatherlessness leads to chaos.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:07:35 That’s what you see John in that data. Fatherlessness is… It’s an un-tethering of the grounding in the relationships that lead to health and civility and strength. She was just commenting, “We have lost God. We have lost the sense of fatherhood in a nation. We have lost our fathers in a tremendous culture of increased fatherlessness.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:08:04 What you will have is you will have chaos, people searching for something to look to, something to find and the destructiveness to society. We can throw that out but it’s a very powerful comment about the relationship of families in keeping cohesive, structured ways of relating to the civility of society. We see the fruits of it.

Hank Smith: 01:08:33 Would it be correct to say that in your experience, the proclamation, the family proclamation is though not answering every question, that any human being can have in their own experience, they need to have that personal relationship with God. But in general, it seems like the family proclamation is backed by social science across the board.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:08:56 Yep. Unending, to be honest. It’s really remarkable. Yep. For sure. I think that’s because it is an experience. When we talk about social science research, all it is is gathering experience, real experiences and immortality. We will see evidence of the laws of God play out. Of course, we will.

Hank Smith: 01:09:20 But never to be used as a weapon. I liked what you said in the beginning. Don’t use this proclamation as a weapon. It was never intended to be used as a weapon.

John Bytheway: 01:09:28 It’s a light. It’s an ideal.

Hank Smith: 01:09:32 Yeah. Jenna, this has just been a spectacular day for us. I think our listeners would be interested in your experience as a social scientist, a PhD and yet a very faithful member of the Church.

Hank Smith: 01:09:48 Can you walk us through that, your experiences, your journey? What’s your experience been with your education and your faith?

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:09:58 I appreciate you asking that Hank and it makes me think of an experience. I was sitting in graduate school. I was sitting amongst wonderful, wonderful fellow students, none of whom shared my faith. And I had been sometimes told, “Well, you’ve been protected. You haven’t known things because you’ve been kept away from certain ideas. You’ve had less academic freedom because of your religious upbringing.”

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:10:25 And these religious truths, you’ve been taught about the family. I had sometimes had people say that and I will never forget sitting there and into my mind, came a lesson that I had instruction I’d been received as a nursing student at BYU about the eye. The eye can see only with light.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:10:45 It requires light to discern shadows and shapes and colors. As I sat there, I was filled with gratitude for the blazing source of light that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was in my life with those two foundational teachings, the gospel of the Savior who redeems us and The Family: A Proclamation to the World. President Oaks puts those together.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:11:11 The light that allowed me to see, to discern shadows, to discern shapes, to discern what I could not have seen without that blazing source of light, I don’t know how I would express gratitude enough for prophets of God, for a Redeemer who loves us, who sends messengers to communicate truths, for the purpose of enabling us to experience love, his love and to experience love together in the relationships that matter the most.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:11:49 When we don’t, to redeem us so that we can’t and have that eternally. I just think the proclamation is just a profound gift. I think I said before in those nine paragraphs, the distillation of literally thousands of social science studies into succinct statements is just… Could only be divine and I am so grateful for it and bear witness of it with all my heart and with my mind as well, that has been exposed to studies about that.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:12:22 That it is true and we can see it as a blazing source of light to guide us and with the Savior walking beside us, enable us to receive those beautiful blessings eternally, of deep relationships of fulfillment, like our Heavenly Parents experience. I leave that testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

Hank Smith: 01:12:44 Amen. What a great day. John Bytheway, what a great day.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:12:50 Absolutely. So good.

Hank Smith: 01:12:53 I will see this document differently from here on out. I think a lot of our listeners will as well. We need to thank Dr. Jenet Erickson. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you to all of our listeners. There’s now hundreds of thousands of you out there and we are grateful for each one of you.

Dr. Jenet Erickson 01:13:15 Our brothers and sisters.

Hank Smith: 01:13:17 Our brothers and sisters in this big family. Thank you to our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen and our incredible production crew. We have Will Stoughton. We have Kyle Nelson, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson and the incredible wonderful, beautiful David Perry, because it’s his birthday. So we had to kind of give him a wonderful shoutout today.

Hank Smith: 01:13:43 We hope that all of you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.

Hank Smith: 01:13:52 Hey, we want to remind everyone to come find us on social media. Our wonderful Jamie Neilson runs our Facebook and Instagram pages. We would love for you to subscribe, to rate and review the podcast. If you don’t know how to do that, ask someone who was born after 2001 or 2002 and they’ll help you.

Hank Smith: 01:14:12 We want you to come to followhim.co for show notes and transcripts. There’s even transcripts there, John, in French, Portuguese and Spanish of the podcast. Yeah, please come over and come over to the website: followhim.co followhim.co and you can find all of that.