Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM. A weekly podcast, dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway. We love to learn. We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you as together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m your host. I am here with my honest, true, chaste, benevolent and virtuous co-host, John Bytheway. I’ve been excited for that one for a couple weeks, John.

John Bytheway: 00:00:38 Wow. Just pronouncing benevolent is an effort. Thank you, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:00:42 Right. Right. I think it was you a long time ago who taught me that that sounded a little bit like being chased by an elephant, and I’ve always wanted to thank you for that.

John Bytheway: 00:00:51 Oh. That’s what my dad used to say. Honest, true, and chased by an elephant. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:00:55 Chased by an elephant. Hey, we want to remind everybody to come find us on social media, on Instagram, and Facebook. We’ve got all sorts of extras on there for you. Please subscribe to rate and review the podcast that actually helps us more than you might realize. Come to follow him.co, followhim.co for show notes and transcripts which you can get in French, Portuguese, and Spanish. And of course, if you want to watch the podcast, John and I have no idea why you’d want to do that, but if you want to watch the podcast, you can come over to YouTube and find us there. All right, John, what a week. What a week we have. Tell us who’s joining us.

John Bytheway: 00:01:33 Yeah. We’re very honored today to have a face that’s familiar to you if you watch General Conference. So, this is Brother Ahmad Corbitt, the first counselor in the Young Men’s General Presidency. And we’re so happy to have him here today. I have a little bio. He was born in Philadelphia, and he and his wife, Jane, have six children. He has an undergraduate degree in sociology from Richard Stockton College in New Jersey and a law degree from Rutgers University School of Law. He served as a full-time missionary in Puerto Rico and was the state president and mission president in the Dominican Republic. He served as a trial lawyer, executive director of corporate communications. He’s got a long list of professional accomplishments, was the director of the church’s New York public affairs office at one time, and currently works for the Church’s Missionary Department. And also, like I said, serves as First Counselor in the Young Men’s General Presidency. So, we are really thrilled to have you here today with us, Brother Corbitt. Thank you.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:02:40 Thank you. It’s great to be here with you both. I’m so honored to be here and thrilled and privileged to be able to speak to your audience. I thought Hank was going to say, John, that you had endured all things as well.

John Bytheway: 00:02:55 That’s true.

Hank Smith: 00:02:58 He didn’t say you were lovely, but I was waiting for him to say you endured all things.

John Bytheway: 00:03:05 Yeah. When you look at me, you think that dude’s been through a lot. That’s what people, there’s a lot of mileage.

Hank Smith: 00:03:14 That is funny. With me as his co-host he has endured a lot. That is true. I should have mentioned that. Well, welcome Brother Corbitt. I think everybody is so excited to hear from you.

John Bytheway: 00:03:28 Yeah. The lesson this week from the Come, Follow Me is the Articles of Faith and Official Declarations 1 and 2. So, it’s really fun, interesting stuff we have to talk about today. And I think some very faith-building things as well.

Hank Smith: 00:03:46 Right. And I think, Brother Corbitt, John and I just want to listen and learn.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:03:51 Well, this is a great area. I love the Wentworth Letter. John mentioned my background in public affairs and public relations. The Wentworth Letters, I see it from that standpoint, was a public relations attempt to help people outside of the Church mainly, understand that some of the falsehoods and things that were being said by the Church and that was important to do. The Church, by the way, had just established The Millennial Star just a short time before in The History of the Church. I love this article that’s from The Millennial Star. It’s February 1st, 1842. It’s a little long, but I’ll try to read it fast. It says, “In the midst of general distress, which prevails in this country on account of the want of employment, the high price of provisions, the oppression, priestcraft, and iniquity of the land.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:04:55 It is pleasing to the household of faith to contemplate a country reserved by the Almighty as a sure asylum for the poor and oppressed. A country every way adapted to their wants and conditions and still more pleasing to think that thousands of Saints have already made their escape from this country and all its abuses and distress, and that they have found a home whereby preserving industry, they may all enjoy the blessings of liberty, peace and plenty.” So, it goes on, and this is talking about Saints who have come from England as well. It is not yet two years since the Saints in England, in obedience to the command of their Heavenly Father, commenced the general plan of immigration to the land of Zion. They were few in number, generally poor and had every opposition to encounter both from want of means and from the enemies of the truth.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:05:51 And here’s the point, who circulated every falsehood calculated to hinder or discourage them. Newspapers and tracks were put in circulation, sermons and public speeches were delivered in abundance to warn the people that Nauvoo was a barren waste on the seashore, that it was a wild and uninhabited swamp, that it was full of savages, wild beasts, serpents. That all the English Saints who should go there would be immediately sold for slaves by the leaders of the Church. And that there was nothing to eat, no water, and no way possible to obtain a living. And it goes on and on, when in fact, much of the opposite of that was true. They had a great economy, and all kinds of good things were happening in Nabu. The Church leaders were wise enough at that time, and they still are to publish the truth and help people to see what the kingdom of God is.

Hank Smith: 00:06:51 That sounded like our day. Listen to this. Who circulated every falsehood calculated to hinder or discourage. That happens to the Church still.

John Bytheway: 00:07:05 That’s our day.

Hank Smith: 00:07:06 Yeah, absolutely. Every falsehood. When my students sometimes hear things about the Church, I’m sometimes amazed of the things that some people come up with to hinder or discourage people from the Church.

John Bytheway: 00:07:21 The Wentworth Letter is let’s set the record straight.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:07:24 Let’s set the record straight. Yes. PR can have a bad name. And of course, if it’s manipulative, if it’s false, if it’s spinning things, then it ought to have a bad name. But it was clear to leaders of the Church, and it’s clear to leaders of the Church today. The Church has a Church Communications Department and great leaders who lead that, and they’re not out spinning things or manipulating. They are setting the record straight just like Joseph Smith did with the Wentworth Letter when asked by The Chicago Democrat, name of the newspaper at that time in Illinois, what his Church believed in, and what they were all about.

Hank Smith: 00:08:08 You can read the entire copy of the Wentworth Letter if you want. If you have your Gospel Library app and you go to this week’s lesson, if you scroll down just a little bit, there’s a paragraph where it says, “See also Guide to the Scriptures, the Articles of Faith, an L. Tom Perry message.” You can just tap on Chapter 38, the Wentworth Letter and Teachings of the President of the Church, Joseph Smith. And you can read the entire letter right there. So, the Articles of Faith were really just a part of this.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:08:41 The Articles of Faith were part of the Wentworth Letter. Yep. They sure were.

Hank Smith: 00:08:46 And I think it’s called the Wentworth Letter, correct me if I’m wrong here. But I think it’s called the Wentworth Letter, because it was written to a man with the last name of Wentworth.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:08:55 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:08:57 It was a newspaper editor and he was writing a history, I think.

John Bytheway: 00:09:00 Yeah. John Wentworth of The Chicago Democrat. And it surprised me. They were writing the history of New Hampshire or something, New Hampshire? And I thought now, what does New Hampshire? I know that Joseph Smith was born in Sharon, Vermont, but those states, they’re kind of small. Maybe there was some interaction. I don’t know why New Hampshire exactly.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:09:24 Of course Joseph Smith was born in Vermont. You’re thinking his parents were from New Hampshire?

Hank Smith: 00:09:30 Lucy Mack was born in Gilsum, New Hampshire.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:09:35 Joseph Smith goes on to say as Mr. Bastow, and this is the man who’s writing the New Hampshire history, as Mr. Bastow has taken the proper steps to obtain correct information. All that I shall ask at his hands is that he published the account entirely, unvarnished and without misrepresentation.

Hank Smith: 00:09:56 Can we send this? Let’s send this to some of the Church’s critics today, right? Just we ask that you try to not do anything with this, but just tell the truth. How about that?

John Bytheway: 00:10:07 Just tell the truth.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:10:08 Correct information. That’s all we’re after.

John Bytheway: 00:10:10 Just give correct infor…Yeah. And we hear about that, Hank. It’s like somebody on the news, they interview him for two hours and then show 30 seconds of clips. They find something they can use and so, I can see why Joseph Smith would say we published the whole thing. I totally understand that. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:10:35 Yeah. And in fact, as BYU employees, we are not supposed to give interviews because for that very reason that something can be twisted and taken and manipulated. And that was happening to Joseph Smith. I think all the time this falsehood is causing so many problems. And how do you fix that? Right? How do you fix a loud voice that is lying about you? That’s got to be so frustrating. No social media. You can’t have your own Twitter account. So you’re relying on publishers to put out correct information. And then when they don’t, I can’t imagine the frustration.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:11:17 Turned out that this request blesses the entire world. Had John Wentworth or Mr. Bastow not made this request; we may not have this rich set of Articles of Faith and the Standard of Truth as well.

John Bytheway: 00:11:35 Yeah. That’s part of the last part that’s so compelling and motivating that, in fact, I believe it’s just before the statements of belief of the Articles of Faith is that the Standard of truth has been erected.

Hank Smith: 00:11:51 Why don’t we read that, John? Do you have that in front of you?

John Bytheway: 00:11:53 I do, actually.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:11:54 Or we can all recite it from memory. No we can’t.

John Bytheway: 00:11:58 Do you have it Brother Corbitt? Would you like to read it?

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:12:01 I don’t have it, but how about if I recite it and you guys check me.

John Bytheway: 00:12:06 Okay, because you’ve memorized it.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:12:08 I think so. The standard of truth has been erected. No unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent until it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear till the purposes of God shall be accomplished, and the Great Jehovah shall say, the work is done.

John Bytheway: 00:12:42 That statement makes you want to stand up and cheer. It’s prophetic. I think I shared on another one, The Cincinnati Gazette, in an article about July 3rd, I think, of 1844 reporting the martyrdom of Joseph Smith, and the last three words of the excerpt were, “Thus ends Mormonism.” They thought, “That’s over,” but they’re not very good at prophesying The Cincinnati Gazette because 11 years later, there was no Cincinnati Gazette. But this idea that nothing can stop this in this part of the Wentworth Letter is very compelling.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:13:20 In many missions, missionaries are baptizing more converts during the pandemic than they did previous to the pandemic. The Lord has made means and provided means a lot of it is through technology. A lot of it is people feeling isolated and humbled and needing the Lord and some missions are truly baptizing more during a pandemic, which is amazing. It’s astonishing to think that. Nothing can stop the work from progressing is the prophecy.

Hank Smith: 00:13:56 “The standard of truth has been erected.” Nothing can stop this work. I love it. And then he moves. Yeah, he does. He moves right into the Articles of Faith. You want to know what we believe? It always is funny to me when critics of the Church will try to tell us what we believe. I’m like, wait. I’m pretty sure I get to state what I believe. Right?

John Bytheway: 00:14:17 I heard Steven Robinson once, the author of Believing Christ, and he talked, somebody was telling him, “You guys believe this or that.” And he said, “You know what? I am the world’s expert on what I believe.” And we could all say that. “I know what I believe. I’m the world’s foremost expert on what I personally believe.”

Hank Smith: 00:14:41 Yeah. So here comes Joseph Smith saying, “You want to know, here’s what we believe. Here’s our basis.”

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:14:47 They’re so powerful. And many Primary children have them memorized. Once Elder Perry, he was in his nineties and he said, he still had the Articles of Faith memorized and he would advocate and teach that children still continue to memorize them and learn them, and he could recite them from when he was a child, decades, many decades earlier.

Hank Smith: 00:15:18 Some of those songs stay. I can still sing them from my Primary days.

John Bytheway: 00:15:22 From Primary days.

Hank Smith: 00:15:23 I won’t make you suffer through it, that would be  … in all things. But I can still, yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:15:29 That wouldn’t be lovely and a good report.

Hank Smith: 00:15:32 It wouldn’t be lovely. He starts out, and this is the bedrock of who we are. “We believe in God, the Eternal Father in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.” When I talk to a student or a friend, who’s going through what they call a faith crisis I usually come back to here. Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? And do you believe in the Holy Ghost? Right? Let’s have us. This is the foundation. Let’s see how deep this fissure in your faith, how deep it goes. Does it go this deep? Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Do you believe in the Holy Ghost? If we can start from there, it feels like we can build something strong.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:16:15 Great way to start. And funny you talk about faith crisis because Joseph Smith said in the Lectures on Faith, that knowing that there is a God and his character, are two of the three main things that you need to know in order to even have faith in God.

Hank Smith: 00:16:33 Right. We can’t worship a being we don’t know.

John Bytheway: 00:16:36 And I think about the First Vision, “He called me by name and said pointing to the other.” What did he learn in that instant? “He looked like me. He had hands, He had a voice, He called me by my name.” Amazing what he learned in that instant. And what was that thing that the Prophet Joseph Smith said, “Once, should you gaze …”

John Bytheway: 00:17:03 What was that thing that the Prophet Joseph Smith said once? “Should you gaze into heaven for five minutes, you would know more than by reading everything that was ever written on the subject.” And that’s exactly what he got to do.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:17:12 As a father, He rescued him from that thick darkness when he was just about ready to surrender to despair and destruction, as he thought and sensed in his own mind, Joseph, His father rescued him and chased darkness away from him. What a fatherly thing to do.

Hank Smith: 00:17:34 Yeah, that’s beautiful. I’ve always told my students that when you believe in Jesus Christ, when you believe in the resurrected Jesus Christ, every other miracle becomes very plausible. If you believe in a resurrected Jesus Christ who still lives today, every other miracle becomes really kind of small potatoes. Opens up to a world of possibilities. The resurrection of Jesus.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:18:00 Oh, this is good. People will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression. Isn’t that so liberating? Unless you do something wrong. There have been times in my life where I thought, “Oh no, I’m going to be punished for my own sins.”

Hank Smith: 00:18:17 I would rather be punished for John’s sins, because there aren’t any.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:18:23 See, that’s what I was thinking.

John Bytheway: 00:18:24 I catalog mine in a journal. Let me get volume four out for you. No, I think the idea of agency is affirmed there. I think a lot of the Articles of faith were responding to probably questions they got at the time, and maybe even to say where we’re distinct. So the idea of original sin is kind of refuted there in that Article of Faith. The depravity of man, one of the tenets of Protestantism is, “Well, we’ll be punished for our own sins, not for Adam’s transgressions.” That’s a nice thing to know. I remember Robert Millet saying to our class once, “Raise your hand if you are responsible for Adam’s transgression.” And nobody raised their hand. And he said, “Raise your hand if you’ve been affected by it. We all raised our hands.” But that’s a very important distinction.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:19:19 And of course that leads us to the Savior’s Atonement, “That through it, all mankind may be saved by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.” President Nelson has taught us all, the whole Church, to refer to the Atonement as the Savior’s Atonement, or the Atonement of Jesus Christ, as opposed to just the Atonement, as you know.

John Bytheway: 00:19:42 Just the Atonement. Yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:19:44 This sort of amorphous act, or event that saves us rather than Christ saving us through that act.

Hank Smith: 00:19:51 Right. You cannot separate the Atonement of Jesus Christ from the character of Jesus Christ. Who he is. The only reason we have an Atonement of Jesus Christ is because of His choices, His character.

Hank Smith: 00:20:06 Interesting, John and Brother Corbitt incorporate here that we’ve got Creation, Fall, Atonement. If you believe in God, you’ve got a creator. You have the Fall and verse two in the Atonement. The three pillars, really, of the plan of salvation are Articles of Faith: 1, 2, and 3.

John Bytheway: 00:20:24 Wow.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:20:25 Well, well said. Great observation.

John Bytheway: 00:20:27 That’s great. And I like that … Something that we need to state that may feel like a contrast by obedience to laws and ordinances, and as the debate that goes on, are we saved by our faith? Are we saved by the grace of Christ alone? Are we saved by our works? And there’s this balance that comes into here with this by obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel. We’re saved by the Savior. We’re saved by the Savior. We can’t earn our salvation. We know that. But the Savior asked us to do certain things, and so that’s kind of there. And I love what C.S. Lewis said that he had been asked about whether we’re saved by … I think he used faith or good works. And he said, “I really have …” This is CS Lewis, “I really have no right to speak on such an important topic.” But it does seem a little like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary.

John Bytheway: 00:21:29 Which is … What a brilliant way to put it. We’re trying to become like the Savior, but our striving to become isn’t what saves us. But he asked us to become like Him. There’s been a lot of talk about that. I just think that it’s interesting that  Article of Faith 3 has that idea, all mankind may be saved by obedience to laws and ordinances of the gospel. And then 4 tells us what they are.

Hank Smith: 00:21:58 That’s exactly right, John. “We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved. …” You could put a period right there. We do believe that, that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved. And what has he asked us to do? To be obedient to the laws and ordinance of the gospel, which are … And then we …

John Bytheway: 00:22:16 And it comes into it. Yeah. A man must be born of water and of the Spirit. So yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:22:21 But you’re right. Obedience doesn’t save us. It is through the … All mankind may be saved through the Atonement of Christ, period. We don’t believe our works save us. But our works do take us closer to him. Do you remember Brad’s analogy, our friend Brad Wilcox, said, “The Savior has paid the entire price for your piano lessons. He doesn’t want to be paid back. He wants you to practice.”

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:22:47 Yeah. Oh, that’s great.

Hank Smith: 00:22:47 That’s what he asks. Just like any parent.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:22:49 That’s a great analogy.

Hank Smith: 00:22:50 He just wants you to practice. And that’s what obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel are, are us saying, “Yes, thank you for paying this price. I will practice.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:22:59 Yeah. And King Benjamin says, “He wants us to be steadfast, always abounding in good works.” Why? That Christ the Lord omnipotent may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, through the wisdom and power and justice and mercy of him who created all things. So it’s he who will do the saving, and the bringing to heaven. Our role, and responsibility, and duty, and opportunity, and privilege are to embrace him. He lifts us, but we have to embrace Him. And we embrace Him by the laws and by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

Hank Smith: 00:23:42 That’s beautiful. The Savior brings me to heaven. Faith, repentance, my baptismal covenants, my baptism, and the Holy Ghost make it so I want to be there. That they can make me the person that I need to be in order to want to be in heaven. Does that make sense, John? The idea of it’s open to me because of the Atonement, but do I want it? Well, that’s where these come in. They’ll change what I want.

John Bytheway: 00:24:13 President Dallin H Oaks, I just loved that. Yeah, I think it was October of 2000, the talk he gave was called, “The Challenge to Become.” I’ll try to paraphrase it. It’s not just what we know and it’s not even what we do, but when we know what to do, we do what we know, we begin to become something different. And when the Savior works in our lives, we become different. And like you said Hank, we begin to lose desire to sin. And so clean hands, pure heart. We can be cleansed from our sins, but with pure heart, we were trying to lose our desire to sin like King Benjamin’s people did.

John Bytheway: 00:24:47 And I’ve always wondered, is that permanent? Is there an order form in the Book of Mormon I can pull out and sign up for that, where I get that permanently? But then King Benjamin says, “I’m going to give you a name,” and I don’t think it was permanent. I think all have felt that. We’ve listened to an inspiring talk or something and just been so fired up, then we have to go back to work, back to school, back to the world, and so we need to keep coming back where the spirit is to get that same feeling again. To lose our desire to sin.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:25:15 These people made a covenant. And as John said, he gave them a name, and said that the covenant you’ve made is a righteous covenant. Obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel, and of course ordinances accompany covenants, and covenants accompany ordinances.

Hank Smith: 00:25:34 Joseph Smith is how old in ‘18 ?… He is laying out the gospel in such a simple way.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:25:43 Yeah. He’s 36.

Hank Smith: 00:25:43 I just don’t know if I could have done this. Yeah. At 36 I don’t know if I could have said, “What do you believe? Well, let me start at the beginning, let me lay the foundation and make it simple and beautiful and powerful all at the same time. Why don’t I just go ahead and write this up for you?”

Hank Smith: 00:25:57 These four principles and ordinances. Faith, repentance, baptism, and the Holy Ghost. How many times in the Book of Mormon do we come back to these four principles and ordinances? You’ve got 2 Nephi 31. Savior does it in 3 Nephi i 11. He does it again in 3 Nephi 27. Come back to these over and over. This is the basis of everything we do.

John Bytheway: 00:26:25 I had a friend in my ward that stopped me once. “Wait, you’ve taught Book of Mormon?” And, “Yeah, I have.” He said, “Well, what’s the one thing you’ve learned over all these years?” And thought about it, and I said, “The prevalence of first principles in the Book of Mormon. Faith in Christ and repentance, over and over again. And sometimes the ordinances too. But faith, repent, faith, repent.” And I want to emphasize, faith could be just what we want to happen, but it’s not faith in what we want. It’s not just hope the sun will come out tomorrow. It’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and in what He wants.

John Bytheway: 00:27:04 And I remember my story, Hank, of donating a kidney to my brother. And I thought we were so blessed. David was doing a project for the Church, and they needed this thing urgently. It was to help with the translation of General Conference and sending it out to the world. And he had invented this thing that separated volume levels. It’s a long story. Just thought it up. And Elder Rex Pineagar gave him a blessing, and I thought, “He’s going to heal him.” And we all had faith. He’s going to heal him, and he didn’t. And what he said was, “Your body will not reject the new element.” That new element was in me.

John Bytheway: 00:27:45 So I got to donate that kidney, but we learned such a wonderful lesson. Faith isn’t faith in what you want, it’s faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And he had a better plan. And sometimes that implies a real reliance on him, that he knows better than maybe faith in what we want to happen. No, the first principle is faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:28:11 That’s awesome, John. I think Elder Maxwell added, “Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ includes faith in the Lord’s timing.”

John Bytheway: 00:28:17 In His timing.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:28:19 I think faith in the Lord Jesus Christ includes faith in the Savior’s ability to use us as well. So there’s some self confidence in there, as we walk with Him, that we can do all things through Christ, which strengtheneth us, as Paul said.

John Bytheway: 00:28:36 Boy, that’s a good way to think of it. You get a calling that you don’t think you can do, but if you have faith in Christ, then you have faith that He called you. Wow, that’s a good way to … I love that.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:28:48 Preach My Gospel says, “It includes: faith in Christ, trusting Christ, and also trusting that he will keep His promises.” And so part of the promise of being called and ordained and set apart, or whatever happens with us in our calling, is that the Lord, by calling us, the 1 Nephi 3:7, he has essentially declared that you can do this. And in fact, that goes right into number five. I don’t mean to get ahead of us, but, “We believe that a man must be called of God by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands of those who are in authority to preach the gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.” What does, “Called by prophecy mean?” It suggests to me, a foreknowledge of the person who’s called. That she or he can do this calling. Very similar to what Alma teaches in Alma 13 about the foreknowledge of God.

John Bytheway: 00:29:53 It’s important because I think this Article of Faith may have been a response to the idea of the priesthood of all believers. That if you believe and love the Bible, then you have priesthood. And I think we may be a little closer to our in our theology than to our Catholic friends, who believe, no there really is priesthood, there really is keys. And we believe a man must be called by prophecy by those in authority. There’s an idea of some that have authority and have keys to do that. I think it’s huge, really.

Hank Smith: 00:30:29 Man, this idea that faith in the Lord Jesus Christ includes faith in what he sees in me. That I believe in me because he does, and that’s part of believing in him. I’ve never thought of it that way, but I really like that. Because we so often, especially in the world today, our teenagers don’t think they have any value. I’m a worthless person. I’m a waste of space. And faith in the Lord Jesus Christ includes now faith that you are important because he has declared you to be. So if you really believe in Him, you believe in you.

John Bytheway: 00:31:05 I love the beginning of the new Aaronic priesthood theme. Relatively new.  “I’m a beloved son of God, and He has a work for me to do.” And faith in that.

Hank Smith: 00:31:19 And Brother Corbitt.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:31:21 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:31:21 I liked what you did with verse five, that you said, “She or he.” So when Joseph Smith writes, “We believe that a man must be called of God,” we could easily just add right there, we believe that a man or woman called of God …” That men and women are both used by the Lord in this work.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:31:38 Yes. And think of sister missionaries. Think of a counselor in a Relief Society presidency, or the Primary president, or whomever. The Brethren are very clear that these sisters lead, teach, administer the gospel by the power of the priesthood.

John Bytheway: 00:32:01 President Oaks gave that talk and said, “When a woman is set apart to serve in her calling, she’s serving with priesthood authority.” Then he said, “What other authority could it be?” We’re doing the work of God on earth. What other authority would that be? Or what other power could that possibly be?

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:32:18 When John and I train, John being a member of the Young Men General Presidency Council, when we train others on the Children and Youth Program, we use a statement from President Nelson, who implores the adult leaders to let the youth lead. He says, “Priesthood authority will have been delegated to them.” That’s the quote. And then I’m paraphrasing the rest, but to lead in their quorums–quorum and class presidencies. He definitely includes the Young Women in that, and in saying that priesthood authority will have been delegated to them. And so we need to let them lead and exercise that authority.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:33:01 That, by prophecy, takes me back too to the 138th Section, Joseph F. Smith says, “I observe that they were,” and they will become apparent in a minute, “That they were also among the noble and great ones who were chosen in the beginning, to be rulers in the Church of God.”And he’s talking about particular people. But then he goes on and says, “Even before they were born, they, with many others …” And it’s the, “With many others,” that describe our youth, our children, and many others in the Church today, and not yet in the Church. “They, with many others, receive their first lessons in the world of Spirits, and were prepared to come forth in the due time of the Lord to labor in his vineyard for the salvation of the souls of men.” And so, gosh, being called by prophecy. Did the Lord foreknow that I received first lesson-

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:34:03 Did the Lord foreknow that I received my first lessons and that I was prepared? Of course he did.

Hank Smith: 00:34:06 Yep. It reminds me of Jacob 5, Lord of the vineyard seemingly doesn’t know what to do, but they call the servants, right? This foreordained group. Come help us. And the vineyard is saved. I think this all ties together really well.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:34:22 But a young person who’s being called to something, or anyone who’s being called to something, ask yourself am I being called by prophecy? Has the Lord foreknown? And Joseph Smith taught that the callings we receive in this life were foreknown to the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:34:38 It reminds me of Steven Robinson’s thesis in his book, Believing Christ. And he chose the title, Believing Christ, my understanding is, a lot of people believe in Christ, but they don’t believe Him.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:34:53 That’s exactly right.

John Bytheway: 00:34:54 I don’t believe it applies to me, and I like that. No, you can believe Him. You can believe what he said about you, which some of us are like, “Oh, I know it was everybody else, but I don’t know about me.”

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:35:08 Right.

John Bytheway: 00:35:09 But having faith in Christ? Yeah. That’s a beautiful thought.

Hank Smith: 00:35:13 He made the analogy of you don’t believe in electricity unless you use it, right? You can believe in electricity and be like, wouldn’t it be great if it all applied to me? But I’ll just sit here, dark in my house. He said, “Use it, use it. If you believe in it, use it.”

John Bytheway: 00:35:29 And I think sometimes also in our trainings Brother Corbitt would talk about the importance of setting these young people apart to serve in their class presidencies, and have them listen to what the Lord wants to say to them during that time.

Hank Smith: 00:35:45 I’m interested in Article of Faith 6, because both of you have had an increased, I’m sure in the last few years, an increased amount of interaction with apostles and prophets. So, I’m interested in what you have to say about this verse, “We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, apostles and prophets and pastors,” which I would say is bishops, teachers, evangelists. Wouldn’t we say that we’re looking at patriarchs there?

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:36:15 Right?

Hank Smith: 00:36:15 As evangelists?

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:36:17 Yeah. That’s what Joseph Smith taught.

Hank Smith: 00:36:19 I think our listening audience would love to hear from both of you about the Primitive Church and your experiences with the apostles and prophets.

John Bytheway: 00:36:27 Take it away, Brother Corbitt. I don’t have nearly as much as you do.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:36:32 It is a great privilege and a powerful experience. Can I start, though, as a 17-year-old? There I was, just graduated high school in Philadelphia as you know, and my family had moved over to southern New Jersey, which was kind of a suburb of Philadelphia across the Delaware River. Missionaries came, they’re teaching our family, and I distinctly remember the lesson about apostles. They opened a flip chart and there was President Kimball, President Tanner, and President Romney, and then Twelve Apostles under them, and they said that there were Twelve Apostles on the earth again. And I said, “Really? Where are they?” And they said, “Oh, they are in Utah at Church headquarters.” And I remember, this is so weird to try to explain, but it was as if they answered a question that I didn’t know I had. I thought, this is a 17-year-old kid who’s thinking that that’s an important point, that the Restored Church has that office and those leaders again on the earth. And now it’s such a privilege John and I have to be guided by them, to be led by them, to meet with them periodically and hear their direct counsel. They love the members of the Church, the children, the youth. It is wonderful to feel that love.

John Bytheway: 00:38:16 I’ve heard it said by a couple of people who said every interaction that I’ve had with these prophets and apostles today confirms that they are the people you hope they are when they’re not around. I remember a friend of mine told me that he once had to make a presentation for the First Presidency, and he was very nervous and they could tell he was nervous. He looked up and President Uchtdorf gave him two thumbs up. “You’re doing great,” right? He said, “It just confirmed to me that they are the people I hope they are.” They really are. Not that they’re perfect, but that they do have the character we hope they have.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:38:54 Apart from seeing them periodically and being in occasional meetings with them, I have a friend, he was living in Texas at the time and getting his MBA, and he and his family attended a multi-stake meeting where Elder Oaks spoke. This was many years ago. Elder Oaks told a story, and my friend recognized that there was a piece of the story that wasn’t there. So afterwards he went up to Elder Oaks and said, “I noticed you left this part out of the story.” It was just the two of them, and for context, this becomes important later, my friend is white. So he asked Elder Oaks this, and it was just the two of them, and Elder Oaks said, “I left that part of the story out because I consider it to be racist, and I didn’t want to repeat it.” My friend tells me later on. There was no person present who… There wasn’t a minority present or someone overhearing this. That’s just who Elder Oaks is. That’s just the man, President Dallin H. Oaks. I have so many stories, and I’m sure you two have others, where they are just shown to be who they present to be and whom the Lord calls.

Hank Smith: 00:40:25 Absolutely. I know that probably wasn’t the purpose of Article of Faith 6, but I was excited to ask.

John Bytheway: 00:40:33 I look at the order of the Articles of Faith and remember they’re coming perhaps crafted, like these are often asked questions, but let’s put the most important things first. So, look, like you said, Hank: Creation, Fall, Atonement. What is God, and who am I, and who is the Savior? I think it’s significant that the Church doesn’t come down until number 6. It’s not Article of Faith number 1, you have to be in our Church. There’s nothing like that. God is real and the Savior is real, the Holy Ghost is real. And men will be punished for their own sins, not Adam’s transgression. What’s my state? Through the Atonement of Christ we can be saved. We do need those ordinances. Where do we go to get those? It’s all the way down to 6, where we have the first mention of the Church.

John Bytheway: 00:41:24 I wish that was an original thought for me. But Stephen R Covey, wrote this book called The Six Events of the Restoration. You know about the seven habits. Well, the six events of the Restoration Brother Covey suggested the order of the events of the restoration are a formula for solving life’s problems, and you always start with who is God and who am I? And then who is the Savior? What is the gospel? Where do I go to accept the Savior? And that they unfold that way. I’d never thought of that before. I think I heard Brother Covey once at an Education Week also say if you look at the order of the Articles of Faith you see the order in which things fell apart as the Apostasy began, that started with the nature of God, and then with original sin and things like that. I’d never seen it that way before, but I thought that was a fun thought to interject when you see the Church is not showing up until number 6.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:42:25 How insightful is that? Yeah. As you said, with ordinances being mentioned in 3, 4, and 5, and then the church showing up to administer those ordinances in 6.

John Bytheway: 00:42:37 During this pandemic, why don’t we just stay home for Church? Well, we go because that’s where there are ordinances like partaking of the sacrament. That’s important. The Lord wants us there to renew covenants and partake of the sacrament. It’s another reason why the Church… Elder Christofferson gave a talk in, I want to say 2015, called “Why the Church?” It’s fun to take that apart, and you can just make bullet points of all of the reasons why we gather, we strengthen one another, we mourn with those who mourn, comfort those who stand in need of comfort. It’s important, but I do think it’s interesting that these fundamental things are mentioned first before the organization of the Church is mentioned in number 6.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:43:30 That’s so great. Another couple why the Church, President Oaks just spoke on that-

John Bytheway: 00:43:36 Just more recently.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:43:38 In just this past conference. Uh-huh (affirmative). A couple other points he made, one of course is the sacrament to help us in the process of repentance and renewing our covenants, that being an ordinance, one of the main ones that we’re talking about here in these Articles of Faith, but another is, I love his phrase that, “We associate with people who test us and whom we test.”

John Bytheway: 00:44:17 Yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:44:17 And you do. You find yourself… Church brings people together who are disparate and different and diverse, and invites us all to come unto Christ and walk the same path, and we learn patience and we teach others patience with ourselves.

John Bytheway: 00:44:40 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:44:41 I need to tell the Mapleton 6th Ward that I have helped them quite a bit with testing them, my neighbors, and my, oh, my goodness. That’s so funny.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:44:51 “People test us and whom we test.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:54 Yes. It’s true.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:44:55 I may or may not be quoting him exactly, but that was his concept. I just love, Hank, that you are the gift of God to the Mapleton, which ward?

Hank Smith: 00:45:06 The sixth ward. Yeah, the Mapleton 6th Ward.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:45:06 The Mapleton 6th Ward.

Hank Smith: 00:45:08 I have learned they are very patient people, and that’s because I’ve been a part of their ward for 11 years.

John Bytheway: 00:45:15 It requires a lot of faith.

Hank Smith: 00:45:17 Yes. They have endured all things.

John Bytheway: 00:45:21 Yeah. And Elder Christofferson, he said it gives us a place to experience the application of divine doctrine, and he talks about idiosyncrasies, and then he said, or as President Packer used to say, idiot-syncrasies.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:45:41 In my case, anyway,

John Bytheway: 00:45:43 No. 

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:45:45 What I inflict on my members.

John Bytheway: 00:45:46 What was the… I think it was Eugene England who said, “The Church is as true as the gospel, because he meant this is a place for us to experience all of these things and faith and repentance and everything, and to test, be tested, and to test others.”

Hank Smith: 00:46:05 Yep. Occasionally at BYU I teach the New Testament. I get a student who says, “Well, I love Jesus. I’m not so sure about organized religion.” I’m like, “Listen, if you love Jesus, He loves organized religion. Jesus wants this. This is something that’s clear in the Bible, clear in the Book of Mormon, clear in the Doctrine and Covenants. He wants us in an organized religion.” I think this is why we’re talking about it. John, you wrote that book on Moroni. I mean, that full chapter is to get together often, sing, pray.

John Bytheway: 00:46:36 Gather. People say, “Yeah, I don’t believe in organized religion.” I say, “Go to the nursery. It’s not that organized.” But when you look at… And I just defended a bunch of nursery leaders.

Hank Smith: 00:46:48 Yeah, sorry.

John Bytheway: 00:46:50 When you look at Moroni, and thank you, Hank, for bringing that up. Moroni takes over for his father. What should I do? I have no home, I have no plates, I don’t know how long I’m going to live, I know naught. Then he’s like Mormon 9. Listen, believe in Christ. Fundamental, right? I’m going to give you an example of what happens to nations when they don’t believe in Christ, and give us the Book of Ether. Then he comes back. I’ve got a few more things to say, and it’s not until Moroni 6 that he starts mentioning the Church. It’s very similar. He talks about priesthood and ordinances and prayers on the sacrament and how we gave the Holy Ghost, and then Moroni 6, here’s how we operated the Church. Thanks for mentioning that, because it’s a similar order of events than the Articles of Faith.

Hank Smith: 00:47:40 I think it might be a good time, John, just for us. We don’t do this very often on followHIM, but to just anyone listening, the invitation, please go to church. Please, please. I know some people just, “Oh, it’s not for me. Oh, I like everything about the gospel, but I just… Someone offended me,” whatever it is. Please, please, come join with us on Sunday. Come be tested and be-

John Bytheway: 00:48:04 Yeah. And be… Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:48:06 And test others. Come and be tested and test others.

John Bytheway: 00:48:09 We need you there. We need you there. I think sometimes we emphasize that you need the Church, but I think sometimes we should emphasize that the Church needs you. We need all of us. We need all of us to help each other and maybe even to test each other.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:48:22 And Jesus certainly in the New Testament organized religion.

Hank Smith: 00:48:27 Yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:48:27 He organized His Church himself.

Hank Smith: 00:48:30 It’s very clear. It’s very clear how the Savior feels about us being organized.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:48:36 It’s a great theme to come together and worship the Lord. I love verse seven. “We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.” That’s all right out of the New Testament. It seems to flow very naturally from verse 6. Verse 6 being offices, and then verse 7 being operations.

John Bytheway: 00:49:05 Being gifts.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:49:05 Of the Holy Ghost. Gifts.

John Bytheway: 00:49:07 I wonder if they got questions about that a lot, because we read in the cultural backdrop in Joseph Smith’s day there were the shaking Quakers and there was even… What was the section of the Doctrine and Covenants, Hank, where the Lord warned people, because there were two people falling down and-

Hank Smith: 00:49:24 Right.

John Bytheway: 00:49:25 One jumping around the sections.

Hank Smith: 00:49:27 In those earlier sections, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:49:27 Yeah. And it was like, no, that’s not, you’re going too far, or that’s not of God. And this is a statement of, “We believe in the same things in the New Testament”. And I love that they added interpretation of tongues. If somebody’s just speaking in tongues and nobody’s there to understand, that doesn’t sound like a house of order. Somebody will be there to interpret it.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:49:50 And the prophet Joseph Smith encountered that at one point when he went to Ohio. In Sections 39, 40, 41, we’re right around that time in Church History where he was speaking to those issues.

Hank Smith: 00:50:06 There’s a book, a wonderful book that was recommended to me called Mormonism in Transition. It’s definitely scholarship. It’s not an easy read. It took me a while to get through it. But Thomas Alexander wrote the book and he talks about how we go from the Church of the 1870s, 1880s, kind of these polygamists out in Utah, to the 1920s, 1930s, where we have Latter-day Saints throughout the country and they’re serving in the Senate. He says that 50 years right there, Mormonism in Transition. He talks about the gift of tongues becoming a fast and testimony meeting. He said that was a transition where they stopped speaking in tongues and started this tradition of coming up to the pulpit and bearing your testimony. It was a fascinating thing that he talked about that they said, okay… There was never an official like, hey, we’re not speaking in tongues anymore. It just kind of m-

Hank Smith: 00:51:03 … there was never an official like, hey, we’re not speaking in tongues anymore. It just made this gradual transition from, “Come up and offer us your testimony versus this idea of speaking in tongues and interpretation of tongues. Because people might wonder, where did that go? What happened there? And it was a really fascinating book. If you both want to read it, it’s a slog to get through. It really is. It is so well researched. He basically takes those 50 years and he says here’s what’s happened to young men. Here’s what happened to young women. Here’s what happened to Primary. Here’s what happened to Sunday School. Here’s what happened to Correlation. He just goes through the entire Church over that 50-year period and how it transitioned from what it was to what we have today.

Hank Smith: 00:51:48 Anyway, a fascinating read. It’s called Mormonism in Transition. The only reason I read it is because Alex Baugh told me it was in his top five books he’d ever read on the history of the Church. And so I said, well, I’ll pick it up. And it is, I mean, it is definitely not, it was a hundred pages on Primary, I mean, I was like, wow, you really did your research here. It’s fascinating.

Hank Smith: 00:52:12 And I do remember him saying, where did the gift of tongues go? It really turned into a fast and testimony meeting.

Hank Smith: 00:52:18 Well, let’s keep going Brother Corbitt, you lead us out and take us through 8 through the rest here.

Hank Smith: 00:52:25 8  says, “We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” Love these two basic pillars of our canon, which of course the Lord and his wisdom added to.

John Bytheway: 00:52:43 And I think that was important to take a stand on the Bible, that we love the Bible, we want to make sure it’s translated correctly, interpreted correctly so forth.

Hank Smith: 00:52:53 Two basic pillars of our canon.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:52:56 Yeah, don’t you think so?

Hank Smith: 00:52:58 Yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:52:58 Of course, he added to them obviously in his wisdom and we are enriched for it.

Hank Smith: 00:53:06 And he also guided Joseph Smith to conduct the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible. And I consider how much scripture we have as a result of that exercise alone. Look, think of Section 76, as he’s translating John 5 and other scripture. Yeah.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:53:28 That’s interesting. So yeah, we’ve got the Church now and we have the Bible. Joseph Smith makes it … it’s almost as if, I don’t know, John, what did you say? This is how the gospel came about. We’ve got the First Vision.

John Bytheway: 00:53:41 Yeah, it’s unfolding.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:53:43 Yeah. And then we get to the Bible, oh, and the John Smith Translation, and the Book of Mormon that was, as we talked this year, those were his two big, what did you call it, John? You called it Gospel 101: Translating the Book of Mormon and then-

John Bytheway: 00:53:55 Right. And the graduate school, that was Joseph Fielding McConkie, was the JST. Because the Book of Mormon, as we’ve said, is a very much faith, repentance, faith in Christ, repentance, baptism, gift to the Holy Ghost, endure to the end. And boy, but then the JST. Wow. And all the things that came from that and the Doctrine and Covenants. And that leads us right into, boy, number 9, doesn’t it?

Hank Smith: 00:54:20 It does. What do you say about that, brother?

John Bytheway: 00:54:25 The canon is not closed.

Hank Smith: 00:54:27 John, read 9 for us, this is an important Article of Faith, that is yet to be fulfilled, right? When people tell me, “Oh, what about this, what about this, what about this?” I say, “As far as I know, Article of Faith 9 is still in effect, there’s still many great and important things that are going to be revealed. We have a Continuous Restoration.”

John Bytheway: 00:54:48 “We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal. And we believe that he will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God.” So there’s a past, present and future there.

John Bytheway: 00:55:01 And I think that maybe in contrast to the idea that God has spoken, we have his word, now we just govern our life according to this. But it’s a God who is continuing to speak.

John Bytheway: 00:55:14 And I think I shared before that experience that our friend, Dr. Robert Millet, had as a biblical studies student at Florida State. Have I told you that? He said that he was the only member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the class. And the professor knew it. And he kept saying, the canon of scripture is closed, set, fixed and established. And he wrote that on the board. And then he’d talk about it some more and walk around the room and come back. The canon is closed, set, fixed, established, and he’d walk around the room some more, getting more animated. The canon is closed, set, fixed and established. And finally turned and said, “Mr. Millet, will you please tell us the Latter-day Saint view of the canon.” And he’s totally on the spot. And he stood up and said, “Well, I guess we’d say the canon is open, flexible and expanding.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:08 Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:56:09 He said. And then we had a really interesting discussion. And that’s number 9. Where does it say, Hank, “That man could put forth his puny arm and stop the Missouri in its course than to stop the Lord from pouring out truth?”

Hank Smith: 00:56:25 Section 121. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:56:26 Yeah. And no, the canons, we love what we have, but the Lord can keep talking as long as he wants to.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:56:36 As I recall, “As well might man stretch forth his puny arm to stop the Missouri river or to turn it in its decreed course or to turn it upstream as to hinder the Almighty from pouring down knowledge out of heaven upon the heads of the Latter-day Saints.”

John Bytheway: 00:56:53 Yeah, you nailed it. And that’s number 9, it’s continuous.

Hank Smith: 00:56:58 That’s it. That’s it.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 00:57:00 And it’s alive. To me, this hearkens back to Section 1, “The only true and living Church upon the face of the earth.” This thing’s alive, it’s moving, it’s growing, it’s adapting, it’s evolving. It’s going to continue to grow. Not that other churches aren’t true, they teach the Bible, they teach Jesus. I mean, these are true principles. True and living Church upon the face of the whole earth. This is alive and it’s growing. Which is going to lead later on to our discussion in the Official Declarations.

Hank Smith: 00:57:27 I was just going to say, Official Declarations 1 and 2 are two of the many great and important things pertaining to the kingdom of God that were revealed.

John Bytheway: 00:57:37 Relates right to 9, yeah, that is a really good tie in there.

Hank Smith: 00:57:41 Right to 9. And it also speaks to the importance of following the current prophets and apostles. Of course, we recite and research and follow and esteem and revere things said by all of the past prophets and apostles and other Church leaders. And yet the living prophet and the living First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve is where we should focus our attention most as we navigate the issues of these latter days.

Hank Smith: 00:58:20 And I’ve always told my students, “If you could talk to any of these former prophets, any of them in the past who have passed away, they would all tell you the same thing. Listen to the current prophet.” I don’t care if it’s Isaiah or Noah or President Kimball or Gordon B. Hinckley, they’d say that’s your prophet, President Nelson is your prophet, you listen to him. You can hear them all saying that same thing. They would tell us, “Listen to President Nelson.”

Hank Smith: 00:58:46 So sometimes we say, “Oh, I really liked President Hinckley.” Or, “I really liked President McKay.” My mom used to say, even when she’d bear testimony, she’d say, “I know President McKay is a true prophet.” Even though it was two or three presidents of the Church ago, she’d still talk about President McKay. But I think President McKay would say, “Cindy, you listen to your current prophet.”

John Bytheway: 00:59:08 Hank, I just quickly remember President Benson saying, “The living prophet has TNT.” Do you remember that?

Hank Smith: 00:59:15 At BYU, right?

John Bytheway: 00:59:17 Yeah. Today’s news today. And that was the point. What is he saying today, find the one who’s speaking today. Which is exactly right. And what a blessing. I mean, just yesterday I was teaching and we were looking at something President Hinckley had said, and I just thought, wow, I wonder if President Hinckley can see what’s going on now with the pandemic.

John Bytheway: 00:59:42 And when I got my mission call, this’ll date me, it was over the signature of President Spencer W. Kimball, the Church had about three million members. I mean, it’s an entirely different church. What are we, 16 … 17 million?

Hank Smith: 01:00:00 After John came back, there were six million. He was so successful.

Bro. Ahmad S. Corbitt: 01:00:05 He single-handedly doubled the size of the Church in the Philippines.

John Bytheway: 01:00:08 No, things really picked up after I left. Yeah. No, in the Philippines, there were four missions when I was there, now there’s 22. As soon as I left, things really got a lot better.

Hank Smith: 01:00:20 Yeah. Oh, I was going to say, Joseph Smith taught this is the basis of the kingdom of heaven. Revelation adapted to circumstance. Not revelation from the past, which is always beneficial to read and to study and to learn these doctrines that have been set. I mean, if they’ve already been set, we don’t need to restate them. But revelation adapted to circumstance.

Hank Smith: 01:00:46 In my mind, there is no coincidence that a global pandemic hits and the president of the Church is a doctor. In my mind, it was a revelation adapted to circumstance. The Lord saw this coming long ago and lined those two up. We are in very safe and capable hands.

John Bytheway: 01:01:07 I think we might need to point that out. I think that people of all faiths can be inspired. We are talking about a leader of the entire Church having continuous revelation and being ordained, how would you say it? It’s going back to number 5. There’s a person on earth called to be the President of the Church.

Hank Smith: 01:01:32 Yes. Yeah, an oracle, a mouthpiece, a spokesperson. And it says,  “All that he does now reveal.” We tend to think institutionally through the prophets, but that of course includes what he reveals to all of us. President Nelson himself said, “In coming days,” you remember, “That in coming days it will not be possible to survive spiritually without the guiding, directing, comforting and constant influence of the Holy Ghost.” And plead for all of us to do whatever we can, do the work necessary to increase the revelation in our lives. So, I think that fits right into 9 as well.

John Bytheway: 01:02:21 Yeah, isn’t that true? And I feel like he says it with such love in his eyes and in his countenance. But some of the things he says are like, “Whoa, write that down.”  Will not be possible to survive spiritually unless you’ve got the guidance of the Holy Ghost.” I mean, those are “whoa-type” statements.

Hank Smith: 01:02:38 Right. John, I liked what you said about others receiving revelation as well, that this isn’t just about one person. This is a February 15th, 1978 First Presidency Statement. We don’t have to read the entire thing, but it says, quote, “The great religious leaders of the world, such as Mohammed, Confucius and the Reformers, as well as philosophers, including Socrates and Plato and others, received God’s light. Moral truths were given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and to bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

Hank Smith: 01:03:15 And listen to this, it reads almost like an Article of Faith. “We believe that God has given and will give to all people sufficient knowledge to help them on their way to eternal salvation.” All people.

Hank Smith: 01:03:32 And then I wanted to read one more for you. And it comes from Hugh B. Brown, who is just an incredible mind in the history of the church. He says, quote, “Revelation may come in the laboratory out of the test tube, out of the thinking mind and the inquiring soul, out of search and research and prayer and inspiration. We must be unafraid to contend for what we are thinking and to combat error with truth in this divided imperiled world. And we must do it with the unfaltering faith that God is still in his heaven, even though all is not well in the world.” He calls it, “A dauntless pursuit of truth.”

John Bytheway: 01:04:16 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.