Hank Smith: 00:03 Hello my friends, welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I’m here with the incredible John Bytheway. Hello John.

John Bytheway: 00:11 Hello Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:12 Welcome back to another episode, John. We are going to look today at First Corinthians. Paul spent about 18 months in Corinth, then was away for a few years, but got word that the Corinthians had created divisions among themselves, been separated and had some contention among themselves. I feel like, John, we could get a lot out of this letter. What are you thinking?

John Bytheway: 00:36 I always think of that Doctrine and Covenants verse, “If you are not one, you are not mine.” And I always think if we’re not his, the alternatives are not very good.

Hank Smith: 00:43 Absolutely. We have an awesome guest, an expert joining us today, John. Her name is Dr. Teresa Bell. When it comes to this letter, is there a lot for us to take out of this?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 00:55 I really think there is. I can’t help but think of the recent conference talks and how there’s been a lot about unity lately. And I think that’s probably the main message we need to get from it.

Hank Smith: 01:04 Yeah, absolutely. And being able to see our differences as strengths and yet be united in purpose. Fantastic. John, this is Teresa’s first time on our podcast, Dr. Bell. Can you tell us a little bit more about her?

John Bytheway: 01:18 Oh, I’m so excited to share with our audience about Teresa Reber Bell. She joined the faculty in the department of German and Russian at BYU in August of 2013. She teaches principles and practices of language teaching, exploring foreign language teaching, a graduate seminar on language and culture and German language courses. She is the associate chair and president-elect of the Utah Foreign Language Association. And she’s the current president of the BYU Faculty Women’s Association. Before coming to BYU, she was faculty member of the Department of Modern Languages, literatures and linguistics at the University of Oklahoma, from 2002 to 2013. And from August 2000 to April 2002 she taught German at the University of Pittsburgh. Her research focuses on native speaker perception of non-native speaker production of written and spoken German.

Hank Smith: 02:18 Wow.

John Bytheway: 02:20 So how do native speakers perceive those who are not native speakers in what they write and produce in German. In addition to other projects, she’s writing a book on the hymn, Silent Night, and its perception and influence in lives of members of the church, or as they say in German, I remember this Stille Nacht I get that right?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 02:40 Ja, sehr gut. Ja. Perfect.

John Bytheway: 02:42 She graduated from the interdisciplinary PhD program in second language acquisition and teaching at the University of Arizona in May 2001. She has a BA in German and math from BYU, and an MA in German literature from BYU. She served in the Germany Frankfurt Mission and taught Institute for two years at the University of Arizona while she was in graduate school. She’s married to Ryan Bell. They have two children. One, Luke is serving in the Bolivia Cocha Bamba mission, and Madeline just graduated from high school, will be going on a Vienna study abroad and attending BYU this fall. I love introducing people because I love what I hear from our guests. They’re just so amazed at the wide education that our guests have and yet they’re faithful believers. And so we’re really delighted to have you with us, Dr. Bell, thanks for being with us today.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 03:38 Thanks. I’m really happy to be here.

Hank Smith: 03:40 We are very happy to have you here, Teresa, and I know that you are friends with my wonderful wife, Sarah, and so she is excited to listen to this episode. I don’t know how many episodes she listens to, but I know this will be one of them.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 03:55 She listens to a lot of them. We talk about them sometimes.

Hank Smith: 03:58 I hope so. I don’t ask because I feel like that’s a little too much pressure. I bet in all your experience with your mission and with all your education, you’ve never run into any sort of division or contention among people. I bet that’s never.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 04:12 Never in my entire life.

Hank Smith: 04:13 Never been the case. Never the case. I’m going to read a little something from the Come, Follow Me manual and then we’ll turn it over to you, Teresa, and see where you want to go. It opens up by saying, “During the months that Paul spent in Corinth, many of the Corinthians, hearing him, believed and were baptized, it must’ve been heartbreaking for Paul to hear just a few years later that there were divisions and contentions among the Corinthian saints, and that in his absence they began to heed the wisdom of the world. In response, Paul wrote the letter we now call First Corinthians.

  04:44 It is full of profound doctrine, and yet at the same time Paul seems disappointed that the saints were not ready to receive all the doctrine he wanted to give them. He says, “I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual,” he lamented, “for ye are yet carnal.” As we prepare to read Paul’s words, it might be helpful to examine our own readiness to receive truth, including our willingness to heed the spirit and strive for unity within our families, with our fellow saints and with God.” What a great introduction. Where do you want to go with this, Teresa? How do you want to take a look at First Corinthians?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 05:17 I’d like to start by saying that I’m really happy to join both of you, Hank and John, who are united together to help us better understand the Come, Follow Me curriculum. So I’d like to talk a little bit about the historical and geographical context for the city of Corinth, because I think it’s important to understand before we dive into the epistles, and then a little context for Paul’s epistles in general. And you may have covered some of this already, talking about Acts and Romans, and it’s okay, it’s good to hear it again sometimes.

Hank Smith: 05:43 Okay, Totally fine. Yeah. Repetition is a good thing.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 05:45 Right. Okay. Paul’s 14 epistles found in our present New Testament were written to members of the church who already had some knowledge of the gospel. They are not evangelistic, rather they’re regulatory in nature. And I feel like someone brought that up before, it was maybe John. And this was something I found fascinating that I did not know. The arrangement is neither chronological geographical nor alphabetical, but by length, in descending order from the longest, which is Romans to the shortest, which is Philemon, which to me, that’s crazy to put it in that order.

Hank Smith: 06:15 Let’s put them in order of length.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 06:18 If this is the case, except with the epistle to the Hebrews, which was placed last because some have questioned whether or not it was written by Paul. And this is all from the Bible dictionary, by the way. The dating and chronological grouping of the epistles as presented below, which I’ll talk about in a second, is approximate, but it does seem consistent with the facts that are known. So an advantage to study the epistles in chronological order that the reader sees the differences in the types of problems the church encountered as the years passed and the circumstances changed. The early membership was mostly Jewish, and problems included questions about the law of Moses, that later when the Gentile membership had increased problems involved items of Greek philosophy. Early persecution was from the Jews. Later persecution came from the Roman government. But these things were visible in the epistles, not by sharp distinction, but by the gradual shift.

  07:09 And I think that’s something that’s interesting. And so looking chronologically, it would start with First and Second Thessalonians, which was AD 50, 51, and then First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, and Romans. Then the next group is Philippians, Colossians, Ephesians, Philemon, and then Hebrews and then Titus and First and Second Timothy. So just looking at the groups like that chronologically, it’s interesting to look at that. So first and second Corinthians and Galatians and Romans were written between AD 55 and 56. First Corinthians was written toward the end of Paul’s three-year stay at Ephesus, which is interesting to me because I always used to think, “Well, he wrote it because he was in Corinth.” And he did not, for obvious reasons. And then Galatians was probably written during his journey through Macedonia, and then the Romans, he wrote from Corinth.

Hank Smith: 07:59 So Paul is all over the known world bringing up these new branches of the church, raising up these new branches, moving on, raising up more new branches, and then writing to his old branches to try to keep them headed in the right direction. Is that right?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 08:13 Yeah. And when you think about that, that just seems overwhelming to me. An overwhelming task for one person, for one missionary to do.

Hank Smith: 08:20 Yeah, John, you opened a branch of the church once. That had to be overwhelming.

John Bytheway: 08:26 Wow, that’s cool you remember that. I will never forget the day the mission van drove off and I was standing there with Elder Steve Lewis, and they had just rented us a house with the living room we could hold church in instead of an apartment. They got some pews and just said, “Bye-bye.” What an adventure.

Hank Smith: 08:47 Raise up a branch.

John Bytheway: 08:48 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 08:49 And Paul’s doing it, it sounds like almost weekly, starting these new branches of the church wherever he goes.

John Bytheway: 08:56 And Paul is so uniquely qualified. He could speak languages. I know that would touch you, huh, Teresa? He had different languages and he knew different cultures and he was able to talk to anybody.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 09:10 He could. And it’s, talking about that with the different languages and cultures, at the time, Corinth was the meeting place of many nationalities. It was the main current of trades flowed through there, between Asia and Western Europe.

Hank Smith: 09:23 If I remember right. It’s on a small strip of land where you can…

John Bytheway: 09:27 It’s an Isthmus.

Hank Smith: 09:29 You can cut off a bunch of time, you would stop your boat and then you would maybe unload it, take everything to the other side, going through Corinth, and then your boat would go around and pick you up on the other side or there’d be a new boat there to pick you up.

John Bytheway: 09:44 Yeah, it’s called the… Oh, correct me, it’s called the Diolkos There was a Greek name for this road. They wanted to build a canal, what was it, six kilometers? Just didn’t have the equipment to be able to do it back then, but it saved 200 miles or something going around. When I was there, I joked with my group that this is where this saying came from, that we wish you a merry isthmus and a happy new peer, because on the other side they would unload the… Yeah, they had the same reaction.

Hank Smith: 10:14 That’s good. It was good.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 10:14 That’s really good.

Hank Smith: 10:17 So it’s on this little narrow stretch of land where you can… A lot of people are coming through.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 10:22 Yeah. And lots of trade going on. So lots of languages, lots of cultures. Paul’s first visit lasted nearly two years and his converts were mainly Greeks. And about the Greeks, at that time, they were gifted with a keen sense of the joys of physical existence, a passion for freedom and a genius for rhetoric and logic. So when we think back to the famous Greeks that we know, but at the same time it was reared in the midst of the grossest moral correction and disciplined and self conceited types of things that were going on there too. So you had this dichotomy there, which was really hard to work with for Paul.

John Bytheway: 10:57 So you wouldn’t say the field was ripe already to harvest, or maybe you would, it would just be they really need the gospel here type of a thing.

Hank Smith: 11:06 John, I was going to say, so it’s full of nationalities, full of languages and full of sin. Is that what you’re telling me. Teresa?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 11:13 Yes, very much so.

Hank Smith: 11:15 Okay. And here Paul shows up and has some success, right?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 11:19 He has great success. Yeah. There were people who were humble enough to listen to him and who were ready.

Hank Smith: 11:24 Then he leaves there. He’s there for you said almost two years, and then he leaves there and he goes on to do more of his work, and somehow he gets word that things are not going well in Corinth.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 11:37 Yeah, and don’t you kind of wonder about that, how he found out? I mean I know there are a lot of possible ways, but at how disheartening that would be.

Hank Smith: 11:45 He says, it’s in verse 11, “It hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.” So there was a tattletale. Somebody in there let Paul know things are not going well.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 12:00 It’s good that he knew so then he could try and reach out and help them. That’s the other really important part. And you bring up something interesting too. The way that… in looking at an analysis of First Corinthians one through seven, the very first part is his greeting and giving of thanks in verses one through nine, and then he rebukes the church for the lack of unity.

Hank Smith: 12:22 He’s like, I love you so much, you’re the best.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 12:24 This is what’s going on.

Hank Smith: 12:26 And now here’s the problem.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 12:27 Yeah. And the spirit of partisanship and insubordination. Then the case of impurity in chapter five and six, and then lawsuits. Then the inquiries made by them about marriage in seven. But that’s just an overview of looking at it. Chapter one, the first few verses true saints are perfectly unified in the same mind and in the same judgment. Just going off of that in the heading, “Paul, who was called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God and Sosthenes our brother.” I promise I practiced that before I came on. “Unto the Church of God, which is at Corinth, to all them that are sanctified in Jesus Christ called to be saints with all that in every place, call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours. Grace be unto you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

  13:13 I thank my God always on your behalf for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ, that in everything you’re enriched by him in all utterance and in all knowledge, even as a testimony of Christ was confirmed in you, so that ye come behind in no gift waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall also confirm you to the end that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful by whom we were called unto the fellowship of his son Jesus Christ our Lord.” And I just love… Can you even imagine receiving that in a letter? I think we had a high council speaker yesterday in sacrament meaning and he brings the love of the stake presidency. You got to love that. And then you think about area presidencies when they speak, general authorities who speak, and then when the prophet and apostles speak, they bring the greetings that make you feel like they really know you and care about you. But they bring love from the Savior really, and that’s what Paul’s doing here.

Hank Smith: 14:11 I love his introductions. We’ve seen this in a couple other letters.

John Bytheway: 14:14 Oh yeah.

Hank Smith: 14:15 It seems in every letter he wants to begin with the good that they’re doing and the good people that they are.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 14:22 We can take a lesson from that even too. We think about when we try to be peacemakers, and President Nelson’s most recent talk, and what it takes to be able to do that, to be united, to be peacemakers.

John Bytheway: 14:36 Yeah. Verse 10, no divisions, be of the same mind, same judgment. It’s just that, that ideal of Zion. It sounds like that same heart, same mind. And that’s lofty. That’s hard to do, but that doesn’t mean we don’t strive for it and we don’t mention it. We’re trying to get to that point where there’s no division, same mind, same judgment.

Hank Smith: 14:58 In the God’s Word translation of verse three, it says, “Goodwill and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are yours.” That’s a way to start a letter.

John Bytheway: 15:09 Yeah. I like the bumper sticker language, eyes on Jesus, and Paul always starts his letters like that. “Hey, what are you looking at? Eyes on Jesus, you guys.” I feel like the Doctrine and Covenants does that. “Your eyes have been upon Joseph, come on you guys, eyes on Jesus. That’s where you keep your eyes.”

Hank Smith: 15:26 Oh yeah, I remember that, John, “Your eyes have been upon him.”

John Bytheway: 15:29 Yeah, and his imperfections, you’ve known, and his language, you’ve known… Your eyes are in the wrong place. Eyes on Jesus. And Paul starts all of his letters like that I think.

Hank Smith: 15:36 Yeah. It starts out with, Teresa, wouldn’t you say he’s beginning with, “This is where our focus needs to be.” “Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you we’re waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. We want to stand blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.” It’s every verse.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 15:54 Yeah. So 10, “Now I beseech you brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.”

Hank Smith: 16:15 10 verses in, he’s like, “Let’s address some issues.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 16:19 And in the manual it says under this first section, we don’t know all the details about the lack of unity among the Corinthian saints, but we do know about lack of unity in our own relationships. And then think of a relationship in your life that could benefit from more unity.

Hank Smith: 16:33 That’s something that’s big for us here on Follow Him, Teresa. Yes, let’s learn about these people in the past, but help me with my relationships today. Help me with my relationships with my children, my wife, my ward members.

John Bytheway: 16:44 My challenges today.

Hank Smith: 16:45 Yeah, let’s not shy away from that.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 16:47 Right.

Hank Smith: 16:49 As I read this, looking forward to our recording today, it seems like they’re dividing by who taught them the gospel, or who baptized them, or who they’re looking at as their leader. Verse 12, “Every one of you is saying, I am of Paul, I am of Apollos.” We know he is another missionary. I am of Cephas,” which is Peter, “I am of Christ.”

John Bytheway: 17:10 Yeah. Are you focusing on who first taught you or who baptized you other than eyes on Jesus? It’s that sort of a thing. Be careful about that. That’s what I’m getting.

Hank Smith: 17:21 Yeah. Teresa, do you feel like that’s what’s happening there? I don’t see that a lot happening today of course, but…

Dr. Teresa Bell: 17:28 In 15 too, “Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.” It goes right along with that, but yeah, I remember when I was on my mission, you try to involve members, and try to have members baptize and confirm, and members help with the teaching, and members help with the fellowship before they even were baptized. So it wasn’t something that was tied to the missionary.

Hank Smith: 17:47 I can see in other translations of the Bible, it’s when we say I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, kind of what they’re saying is, I follow Paul, or I belong to Paul. I follow Paul. And then I see in verse 13 this question, is Christ divided? Meaning would Christ like this division among his missionaries, his leaders, those saying, “Oh, that’s my leader. No, well, that’s my leader. Well, that’s my leader.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 18:13 In 14, “I thank God that I baptized none of you.” Listen to this. Okay? This is what’s going on. You are of Christ. You belong to Christ. You follow Christ instead of me or anyone else.

Hank Smith: 18:28 Yeah. He cuts that apart in one verse, “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you, or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” John already knows this. I have an affinity to President Hinckley because he was the prophet of my youth. He seemed like almost a grandfather to me. Some of his talks came at the most crucial periods of my life, decision-making times of my life. But I can see myself kind of saying that, “Well, I am of Gordon B. Hinckley.”

John Bytheway: 18:58 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 18:59 “I’m a product. I’m a product of President Hinckley.” And Paul might say, “Was President Hinckley crucified for you? No, it was Christ.”

John Bytheway: 19:06 Our friend, Dr. Robert L. Miller, a friend of the podcast, who’s been on a couple of times, he has a book called Becoming New, that’s all about the epistles of Paul. This is what he said, “Language like I am of Paul, I am of Apollos, I am of Cephas, and appropriately I am of Christ, suggests that different factions or schisms had developed. The situation might be analogous to a group of latter-day saints sitting around a table and expressing who their favorite general authorities are. Although the case with the Corinthian saints was much more serious than that. Let us suppose that certain members of the restored church choose to study and teach and focus solely on the words of their particular champion. There are the David O. McKay saints, the Joseph Fielding Smith members, the Marion D. Hanks followers, and the Bruce R. McConkie fans, the Boyd K. Packer crowd and the Thomas S. Monson collection.

  19:55 Each of these chosen servants is different in his own way. All gifted, powerful and effective witnesses of the Lord Jesus Christ, each appealing to different kinds of latter-day saints.” What I like here is he said, “well, there’s something to be said for that. There’s people that resonate with us and I’m grateful for that.” But he says, “this is more serious because let us suppose that certain members chose to study and teach and focus solely on the words of their particular champion.” And that’s where Paul is, “Whoa, whoa, whoa.” That’s the eyes on Jesus idea. That’s what I get from that.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 20:29 I love that from the book. I had a similar thought to that. David O. McKay was the prophet when I was born, so he’s always been like the prophet. I’m with you, Hank. I remember when President Hinckley passed away too, that it was like, “Oh, are you kidding me?” And then when President Monson, you’re just like, “What?” It’s interesting to look at it like that. Everybody thinks differently, has different backgrounds, different ways of learning, and that’s where I think it’s important. It’s okay to be drawn to someone’s type of teaching type of writing, but the whole purpose is to be of Christ.

John Bytheway: 21:00 And that’s who they are all pointing us to. And that’s what’s so beautiful about it, is they’re all disciples of Christ that are pointing us that way.

Hank Smith: 21:08 Paul says in verse 17, “For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel.” So he’s saying, look, I know some of you are, Hey, I was baptized by this guy. I was baptized by this guy. That’s not the crucial point. The point is “Lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.” So, John and Teresa, I hear him saying baptism is important and who you were baptized by great, but the cross is the important piece.

John Bytheway: 21:33 Yeah, this is what I love about Paul. He keeps going back to that eyes on Jesus message, even in his introductions, in his greetings. That’s where the power is. And you’ll notice him going back and forth and comparing the wisdom of men and the power of God, and which one he wants us to focus on. Like in verse 22, “The Jews require a sign, the Greeks seek after wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified.” and that’s where the power is. Don’t ever get your eyes off of the Atonement, off the cross as Paul will put it. “And unto the Jews that’s a stumbling block, unto the Greek’s, foolishness.” And if I understand right, the idea that a God could be crucified and condemned like a criminal just seems so foolish to the Greeks. So maybe that’s where he’s going with that. But that’s where the power is, and that’s why it’s so fun to see Paul preach to get us back to eyes on Jesus, and this man as God raised from the dead, as he taught on Mars Hill.

Hank Smith: 22:40 Before we leave this idea, Teresa, tell us more about being perfectly joined together. No divisions among you. He says there’s contentions among you. This seems to be a major point of Paul that, like John has said, they’re taking their eyes off of Christ and are now creating these factions among themselves.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 23:05 And I think I’d like to back up a little bit to talk about language and culture and the different customs and traditions. We’ve talked just a little bit about how it was back then, but how things are now. And there’ve been a couple of recent conference talks that I love more than anything. And when I teach the seminar on language and culture, whenever we have general conferences, it’s always in a fall semester. I always have students watch conference and look for things about language and culture. And it’s so cute because I got a text from one and she said, “I know Dr. Bell’s going to love this one by Elder Pino from October 22 this last fall.” So I just want to tell, and you probably, I don’t know if you remember this or not, but love it so much. He says, “We all have customs and traditions that are personal from our family or from the community in which we live, and we hope to keep all those things that align with the principles of the gospel.

  23:45 Edifying customs and traditions are fundamental to our efforts to stay on the covenant path, and those that are an obstacle we ought to reject.” So when we put this in the context even of the Corinthians, at the time, and then he explains the custom is the practice or the frequent and habitual way of thinking for a person, culture or tradition. Frequently the things we think and do in a habitual way we recognize as normal. Then he tells this story that I just can’t even stand. I love it so much. “My wife, Patricia, my beloved wife, loves to drink coconut water and then eat the coconut. During our first visit to Pueblo, Mexico, we went to a place where we bought a coconut. After drinking the water, my wife asked them to cut the coconut and bring her the flesh to eat. When it came, it was reddish. They sprinkled it with chili, sweet coconut with chili.

  24:32 That seems strange to us, but later we learned that the strange ones were my wife and I, who did not eat coconut with chili. In Mexico it’s not rare, it’s very normal.” Okay. And I don’t know, you guys have spent time in Mexico, and there are mangoes with chili. There are different things that they do put chili on, but I’d never seen it with coconut before and neither had they. So another occasion they were in Brazil, they served avocado, they were about to sprinkle salt on it and the friend said, “What are you doing? We already put sugar on the avocado. Avocado with sugar? That seems so odd. But we learned that the odd ones were my wife and I who did not eat avocado with sugar. In Brazil, avocado sprinkled with sugar is normal.” And now they eat those things and it’s okay, but what is normal for some may be odd for others depending on their customs and traditions.

  25:16 And so this is what I just think is so interesting, and this is just about little things that you would eat. Like food items, the way food is treated in two different countries that these Elder Pino and his wife thought were a little bit different and something that they’d never really seen before. This is basic. This isn’t really about Christ, but it really is. Because it’s one of the things that can cause factions, and sometimes we look at people and think, “Oh, they put chili on coconut. That is so weird. I totally can’t be friends with them,” or “We don’t believe the same thing or that type of a thing.”

  25:47 And so his examples were a really good start to look at this. And he quotes President Nelson and his talk, A New Normal from October 2020. “Today we often hear about a new normal. If you really want to embrace a new normal, I invite you to turn your heart, mind and soul increasingly to our Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ. Let that be your new normal.” So when we look at that in the context of even just eating avocados with sugar and coconut with chili, it’s interesting because those are things that really don’t have anything to do with salvation, eternal life, Christ. But something like that could lead to divisions.

Hank Smith: 26:20 Teresa, if divisions can come up with something as simple as food, how do we overcome this? Because I would think the adversary is trying to create division after division after division any way possible, and we are falling right into that trap sometimes.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 26:37 And we all do. I shouldn’t say all because I’m sure there’s someone out there who doesn’t. But when I think about the talk, Love your enemies by President Oaks in October 2020. This was one that got me. I loved it so much because he talks about political differences. And that was a huge time, it still is going on where people have distinct views.

Hank Smith: 26:58 I’ve never heard of that. John, have you ever heard of that, of people being divided by politics?

John Bytheway: 27:04 They do? They are?

Hank Smith: 27:04 This is news to me. I’m excited to learn more about this.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 27:07 When President Nelson talked in his peacemakers talk, peacemakers needed, I guess, he talked about that too. The very thing. If someone posts something on social media, you don’t have to be mean about it, but you don’t also have to necessarily like it, but it’s to try to understand where they’re coming from, why they believe what they do, and you don’t have to support them or their political candidate. But it’s getting past that. On many college university campuses, there are differences of opinions. Politically is one of them. Ways of teaching and learning are different, and there are people who are far right, far left and have a hard time even talking with other people who have a different political persuasion or different belief. To the point where I’ve seen people not even talk to each other. I’ve been at several different universities and it seems like in every department there are at least two people who cannot talk to each other, refuse to talk to each other, for whatever their problems are, and I just find it awful.

  28:04 To me, that’s something that needs to be bridged, it needs to change. You asked something about how we can overcome this. And I don’t know if there’s an answer. I know it’s through Christ. I know it’s through the Atonement. I know that everything can be forgiven. I know that we can get along with everybody, but it’s how to do it. I’ve had discussions with friends about this before too, is how to do it. It feels like people are looking for, “If you’ll give me a step-by-step of this is how you do it, I will do it.” But the thing is, that is not what it is. It’s a little more difficult than that. It’s a personal thing that we have to learn for ourselves. And I think it’s true, the eyes on Jesus, I love that so much, John. I might use that now every day, all the time. But that’s what it is if you keep your eyes on Jesus and what the real goal is and what the real context is for everything we should be doing, I think that’s what the key is.

John Bytheway: 28:55 I was listening to a talk from a friend, Ganel-Lyn Condie and she used that phrase and I thought, “Oh, I like that.” Because I’ve talked about Peter walking on water and as soon as he looked away, he started to sink, but that eyes on Jesus was a good way to put it. I remember a time I was standing in a room in the Philippines with all these other elders. I don’t know if it was a district meeting or what, but I looked around the room and just realized I was the only American in the room. And there was an Elder from Canada there, was an Elder from New Zealand there.

  29:29 There was an Elder from Australia there. There was my companion, a Filipino there, and I just thought, “Look, how cool is this?” What is the one thing we’re all united about? Because we were different. We didn’t go to high school together, didn’t take seminary, but the one thing we were united about was our testimony of Christ. I just remember that moment. I think I wrote it in my mission journal one of the three times I wrote. But just remember thinking what a cool thing that was, and how uniting the gospel can be if our eyes are on Jesus.

Hank Smith: 30:03 The talk you’ve been referencing, this peacemakers needed, this was just a couple of months ago and yet I can put myself back on the couch listening and being just wowed by President Nelson. He says, “Vulgarity, fault-finding and evil speaking of others are all too common. Too many pundits, politicians, entertainers and other influences throw insults constantly. I’m greatly concerned that so many people seem to believe that it is completely acceptable to condemn, malign and vilify anyone who does not agree with them. Many seem eager to damage another’s reputation with pathetic and pithy barbs. Anger never persuades. Hostility builds no one. Contention never leads to inspired solutions.”

  30:48 I bet both of you felt the same way on this talk. One that stood out to me. He said, “If a couple in your ward gets divorced, or a young missionary returns home early, or a teenager doubts his testimony, they do not need your judgment, they need to experience the pure love of Christ reflected in your words and actions.” I would encourage everyone to go back and listen to that entire talk again. It’s one that’ll uplift you. Do you remember he talked about the surgeon that threw his scalpel?

John Bytheway: 31:15 Yes.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 31:15 Yes.

Hank Smith: 31:17 President Nelson, in his forearm, he says, “In the middle of his tantrum, he threw his scalpel loaded with germs and it landed in my forearm.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 31:26 Well, and then that’s when he decided right then he was never going to be that angry. He was never going to have an outburst like that or a reaction to something, and what a blessing for all of us now.

Hank Smith: 31:36 Yeah, you can tell it by just the person that he is. We talked about how to do this. I think I’ve shared this one other time on the podcast, so those of you who listen every time and memorize everything, I apologize. I doubt there’s anyone who does that, but this is from Henry B. Eyring, Our Hearts Knit as One, October 2008. It’s a little long, so bear with me here. He said, “That leads to another principle of unity. It is to speak well of each other. Think of the last time you were asked what you thought about how someone else was doing in your family or in the church. It’s happened to me more than once in the past week. Now there are times we must judge others. Sometimes we are required to pronounce such judgements. But more often we can make a choice. For instance, suppose someone asks you what you think of the new bishop.

  32:26 As we get better and better at forging unity, we will think of a scripture when we hear that question. And now my brethren seeing that you know the light by which you may judge which light is the light of Christ. See that you do not judge wrongfully. For with that same judgment which ye judged, ye shall be judged. Realizing,” this is back to President Eyring, “Realizing that you see others in an imperfect light will make you likely to be a little more generous in what you say. In addition to that scripture, you might remember your mother saying, mine did, if you can’t say anything good about a person, don’t say anything at all. That will help you look for what is best in the bishop’s performance and character.

  33:02 The Savior as your loving judge will surely do that as he judges your performance and mine. The scripture, what you heard from your mother, all these will lead you to describe what is best in the bishop’s performance and his good intent. And then this promise, I can promise you a feeling of peace and joy when you speak generously of others in the light of Christ.” Isn’t that great? I can promise you a feeling of peace and joy when you speak generously of others in the light of Christ. And since Teresa and I have the same bishop, we better do a shout-out to our good bishop Nuttall. We love you, Bishop. You’re doing a great job.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 33:40 We do. He is so great, and he has his eyes on Jesus.

Hank Smith: 33:45 Yeah.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 33:46 President Nelson, in his talk, after what you quoted, “Brothers and sisters, we can literally change the world one person and one interaction at a time. How? By modeling how to manage differences of opinion with mutual respect and dignified dialogue. Differences of opinion are a part of life. I work every day with dedicated servants of the Lord who do not always see an issue the same way. They know I want to hear their ideas and honest feelings about everything we discuss, especially sensitive issues.” And he was talking about his counselors, President Oaks and President Eyring, and to me that was something. I was blown away.

  34:21 I thought that was so spectacular that even the first presidency has different and honest feelings and ideas about things, but they’re able to share it in a way that is beneficial for everybody and then they end up becoming unified, however it works out. This whole talk, when it was on, I had out my little notebook. I was trying to write down every word he said. And I just was laughing to myself because I knew it was going to be… I was going to be able to read it the next day, or two days after, but it was like it wasn’t soon enough. I wanted to have all of it to go over it, every word from that talk. I just thought this could seriously change the world if people would read this and take it to heart and heed it.

Hank Smith: 35:00 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 35:01 I would just say again that… I want to say Doctrine and Covenants section 38. I think it’s verse 27. “Be one. And if you are not one, you are not mine.” And how the options are not good. And I’ve often felt like if Satan’s going to get us, it’s, of course, he’s going to try from the outside in. But if he can get us from the inside, if he can create divisions on the inside. Those are the really tough ones. So to me that is the bigger issue, that if we have the unity, we have allowed the Spirit in and the power of God into all that we’re doing. That’s just how he starts here. You can have that power of God with you if there’s no divisions.

Hank Smith: 35:46 Third Nephi, chapter 11, both of you’ll remember this. Jesus speaking to the Nephites, this is his first day with them, his first few moments, hours, with them. “For verily verily I say unto you, he that hath the spirit of contention is not of me, but is of the devil who is the father of contention. And he stirs up the hearts of men to contend with anger one with another.”

Dr. Teresa Bell: 36:08 Right? So, in October 2020, it felt like that was a good general conference for talking about unity and language and culture. And Elder Cook gave the talk, Hearts knit together in righteousness and unity. And he tells a story that really is to me is a really great example of this. He said, “As a young man not of our faith, General Thomas L. Kane assisted and defended the saints as they were required to flee Nauvoo. He was an advocate for the church for many years. In 1872, general Kane and his talented wife, Elizabeth Wood Kane and their two sons traveled from their home in Pennsylvania to Salt Lake City. They accompanied Brigham Young and his associates on a trek south to St. George, Utah. Elizabeth approached her first visit to Utah with reservations about the women. She was surprised by some of the things she learned. For instance, she found that any career by which a woman could earn a living was open to them in Utah.

  36:59 She also found church members were kind and understanding with respect to Native Americans.” And that the paragraph alone is enough to make you think a lot of things. But the culture was different than outside of Utah. “During the trip they stayed in Fillmore at the home of Thomas R Matilda Robinson King. Elizabeth wrote that as Matilda was preparing a meal for President Young and his company, five American Indians came into the room. Although uninvited, it was clear they expected to join the company. Sister King spoke to them in their dialect. They sat down with their blankets with a pleasant look on their faces. Elizabeth asked one of the King children, what did your mother say to them? Matilda’s son’s reply was, she said, these strangers came first and I’ve only cooked enough for them, but your meal is on the fire cooking.

  37:43 Now I will call you as soon as it’s ready. Elizabeth asked, will she really do that or just give them scraps at the kitchen door? Matilda’s son answered, mother will serve them just as she does you and give them a place at her table. So she did. They ate with perfect propriety. Elizabeth explained that this hostess rose a hundred percent in her opinion. Unity is enhanced when people are treated with dignity and respect, even though they are different in outward characteristics.” There are a few remarkable things about this, but one is the attitude toward the American Indians at the time in the area was not necessarily positive, and we don’t really have to get into that, but there were definite differences between the Utah members of the church and the American Indians. The fact that she knew their dialect, which… I don’t know what it was, but there’s a good chance it wasn’t even written down.

  38:29 She couldn’t have just studied up from a book or anything. But she cared enough to have that relationship and to know how to speak to them. To me, that is just something that’s remarkable. I could talk about language things for a long time, but another really important thing from that is that we’re given the promise that people could hear the gospel in their own tongue. So that right there, it just shows that she’s already trying to build relationships, maybe never to share the gospel, but it’s just something that’s really important for us to think about.

Hank Smith: 38:59 Yeah, I want to learn other people’s language. And that doesn’t necessarily have to mean English, Spanish, German. It can mean the way they think, the way they talk. If I really try to see life from their point of view, I can perhaps learn their language.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 39:14 It’s true. Although I should say that Elder Uchtdorf did refer to German as the celestial language.

Hank Smith: 39:19 Oh, okay.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 39:20 Once, for a general conference before talk… I think he even said it in German, so not everybody caught it.

Hank Smith: 39:24 Oh, did he?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 39:25 I’m just saying. Just put that in your notes of something to read or to learn.

Hank Smith: 39:29 I’ll throw that in. Do you think that’s why Paul, in the second half of this first chapter, he seems to be saying, I don’t want you contending with one another because I’m not using the wisdom of the world and the wise people of the world to share the gospel. And that’s one of the purposes is I’m going to put that idea that you need to contend about a message. I’m going to put that away by using, what does he call them? The weak things, the base things of the world and the things which are despised.

  40:05 That’s who God has chosen. It’s one of my favorite moments in the Doctrine & Covenants. The Lord says, “I’m going to use you, Joseph, to show that I can do anything with anyone.” He’s almost, it’s kind of a veiled like… Well, but I’m going to use the weak things of the earth. So, it seems to me, am I saying that right, either of you? That Paul says in the second half of this first chapter, this is why we’re using the simple people of the earth, we’re going to get away from the idea that contending in intelligence is the way to truth.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 40:38 I think so. Definitely. I remember there was a time on my mission where there was an elder who hadn’t been out very long, and his German left a little bit to be desired, and we were at a street display talking to people. And someone came up and started bashing with him a little bit. I don’t know that he could have even done it in English. I’m not very good at debating in English either. But in German it was never going to happen. He just stopped and bore a simple testimony of the Savior and the person just was stunned. They couldn’t say anything.

  41:05 But that helped me see is, there’s this spiritual missionary who’s ready to serve, ready to preach the word and to share the gospel. And to this other man, he looked like he doesn’t even speak German. He’s probably 18, 19 years old kind of thing. It’s like, what could he possibly tell me? But him just bearing his testimony, the spirit poured in so strong and testified to that man and he was stunned. It’s not about intelligence, it’s not about intellectual, being intellectual. It’s not about any of that. And I think that’s something that’s really important in this section.

John Bytheway: 41:38 Yeah, it’s the man’s wisdom compared to the power of God. And the latter is going to win every time.

Hank Smith: 41:47 Yeah, this is the God’s Word translation for First Corinthians chapter one, verse 27. “God purposely chose what the world considers nonsense in order to shame the wise. And he chose that what the world considers weak in order to shame the powerful.” So, Paul might be saying something about himself. He might be saying something about us, John, or anyone else who God uses to spread the gospel. I purposely use the ones that you wouldn’t think could do it in doing my work.

John Bytheway: 42:23 The verse that I think you were referring to, Hank, is right there in the footnotes in the bottom corner. If you’re looking at old-fashioned printed scriptures like I’ve got, section 35 verse 14. Is that the one you’re talking about?

Hank Smith: 42:37 I can’t remember. Yeah. What is it?

John Bytheway: 42:39 “I call upon the weak things of the world, those that are unlearned and despised to thresh,” I think it says, “thresh the nations by the power of my spirit, and their arm shall be my arm and I will be their shield and their buckler, and they shall fight manfully for me. Their enemies shall be under their feet.” It’s like this whoa type of a verse. And boy, when you think about it, here’s a farm boy from upstate New York. Maybe that’s who he meant by the weak things of the world.

Hank Smith: 43:08 I like how this chapter comes together, the way he begins focusing on Christ, saying, “You’ve got to get rid of these divisions and be humble enough to allow the weak things of the world to teach you, to guide you.” And then he finishes with Christ in verse 30, “But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.” He circles all the way back around it seems, Teresa, back to Christ.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 43:39 Well, for chapter two, I think one of the main important topics is, and this is directly from Come, follow me for individuals and families. “I need the Holy Ghost in order to understand the things of God.” And just reading directly from the manual, I just really like examples like this. It helps me really a lot. If you wanted to learn more about something like automotive mechanics or medieval architecture, how would you do it? According to First Corinthians two, nine through 16, how is learning the things of God different from learning the things of man? Why must we have the Holy Ghost in order to understand the things of God? So maybe we should look at those verses and then we can talk about the questions here. What do you feel you should do to understand spiritually things more fully? And how could Paul’s words help someone who’s struggling with his or her testimony?

Hank Smith: 44:23 Paul says, “As it is written, eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither hath entered into the heart of man the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of the man which is in Him. Even so the things of God knoweth no man but the spirit of God.” I should throw in that JST there, except he has the spirit of God. Verse 12.

  44:57 “Now we have received not the spirit of the world but the spirit which is of God that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God, which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned, but he that is spiritual, judged all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him, but we have the mind of Christ.” That’s beautiful language. Someone tell me what it all means.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 45:45 I think John should take the first stab at that.

John Bytheway: 45:50 Oh, well. I was really looking forward to this chapter because my top 10 scriptures fluctuate like the AP top 25 college football. But First Corinthians 2:9 has always been one of my favorites. And it’s kind of like saying you have no idea. You can’t even imagine it. Whatever you think God has prepared for them that love him, the best you can possibly imagine, it’s better. That’s how I always love to read that in. So that’s one of my very favorite verses. And then you can see that one of the footnotes there is section 76 and talking about the things in the next life, how wonderful and beautiful they can be. I love, he’s just giving us a glimpse and it makes me wonder if Paul has seen some of that.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 46:41 It does make you wonder about that. And I really love that verse too, John. It really does help you take a step back and think of things. And you think we know a lot of great things. We feel the spirit. We have really spiritual experiences. But when you look at, “Eye hath not seen, ear hath not heard,” that you just think, we can’t even imagine what that probably means. But it does make you think about Paul and what he knew and what he’d experienced. I’d imagine some of it.

John Bytheway: 47:07 Just his testimony that, “Listen, God wants to give us everything.” And that’s why it’s a very exciting, fills you with anticipation, type verse, what has God prepared for them that love him? It just makes us think too, what does it mean to love God? And how do I move forward that way?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 47:27 There’s a primary song, the one, the Holy Ghost. It’s number 105. And I thought about this a lot. The words in it are just really remarkable. And I’m just going to read that really it’s short. I won’t sing. I’ll just read. “And when Christ was on the earth, he promised he would send the Holy Ghost to comfort us. Our true, eternal friend. The Holy Spirit whispers with a still small voice. He testifies of God and Christ and makes our hearts rejoice.” And then the second verse, “And when we are confirmed by sacred priesthood power, the Holy Ghost is given to us to guide us every hour. Oh, may I always listen to that still small voice, and with his light, I’ll do what’s right each time I make a choice.” This song made a big impact on me. When my son got baptized, he was eight.

  48:11 So 12 years ago now. That was one of the songs that he chose for the congregation to sing. And it’s really great doctrine to me. It’s very simple, but explains everything well. And so when we were just talking about this and looking in First Corinthians chapter two and about how, that we need the Holy Ghost, or we can’t understand the things of God. And it goes along with what we were talking about before too, the wisdom in God and how you don’t have to be learned to be able to share the gospel or to be able to understand the word of God. But when I was studying this, it just made me think of that primary song, and it’s basic, but it’s all true.

Hank Smith: 48:49 Excellent. John, you focused in on verse nine. I want to focus in on verse 14. Teresa just mentioned it, “The natural man receiveth not the things of the spirit of God for they are foolishness unto him. He can’t know them because they’re spiritually discerned.” What does that verse mean to both of you?

John Bytheway: 49:08 I keep noticing that word receiveth. I think it means accept. Sometimes I think he who receives seed among thorns. It sounds like people… Like a wedding reception, we receive guests. When we confer the gift of the Holy Ghost, we say receive the Holy Ghost. It’s a let it in, allow it in. And I think the natural man doesn’t receive, doesn’t want to. It sounds like sometimes when I see it, I think natural man doesn’t want to accept the things of God. And I always think of Alma’s awesome phrase in Alma 32. “If you will give place that the word may be planted in your heart.” And receiving seems to give place to willfully suspend disbelief for a second. Can I? And receive it and let that work in you, as Alma might say, sorry, I love that chapter. But the natural man doesn’t even want to do that. Doesn’t even want to give place. He won’t receive anything. And that’s why we don’t want to be that person.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 50:07 Makes me think of the scriptures in the Book of Mormon, and also the parables, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God” because they can’t. They don’t have the Holy Ghost. They don’t have the Spirit “for they are foolishness unto him. Neither can he know them because they are spiritually discerned.” And it just, if people are not in the right frame of mind and do not have the spirit, they really cannot understand the things of God no matter how they’re presented.

Hank Smith: 50:31 No matter how they’re presented. That’s interesting. It’s something that seems so obvious to me, a gospel truth that seems so obvious. I’ve been struck by how, to others, it just seems like pure foolishness. But to me it just seems so obvious. I’ve just seen verse 14 kind of play out in my own life, even though it’s difficult to articulate, I’ve been able to see it. 

John Bytheway: 50:57 Hank, I love that idea that we think and perceive everything differently when we have the spirit of the Lord with us and each other. So one of my favorite statements of the prophet Joseph Smith, he said, “The power and glory of godliness is spread out on a broad principle to throw out the mantle of charity. God does not look on sin with allowance.” Okay. We all know that. “But when men have sinned, there must be allowance made for them. The nearer we get to our heavenly Father, the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls. We feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders and cast their sins behind our backs.” I just think we look at each other differently when we have the spirit of the Lord, and we realize, “Wow, we’re all in this together, and we’re all struggling, and we’ve all got our problems. But you keep working on yours, and I’ll keep working on mine, and let’s love each other, and do the best we can moving forward.” I love that statement. We look differently on people. We look with compassion on perishing souls.

Hank Smith: 52:07 That’s great, John. Brigham Young said… he was talking about the gospel, and he says, “How can we understand it?” Meaning, the gospel. “Oh, we have nothing to do, but to humble ourselves and get the spirit of the Lord by being born of water and of the Spirit. Then, we can enter into it. How is it if we are not born of the Spirit? Can the natural man behold the things of God? He cannot for they are discerned spiritually by the spirit of the Lord Almighty, and if we have not his spirit within us, we cannot understand the things of God, but the most simple thing in the world to understand is the work of the Lord. What should we do? Divest ourselves of the great big Mr. I. Let him fall at the feet of good sound reason. What next? Humble ourselves before the Lord and receive the truth as he has revealed it. Then, we will be born of the Spirit,” and he goes on, “Then, you can begin to understand.” It reminds me of, “When they are learned…”

John Bytheway: 53:05 “They think they are wise.”

Hank Smith: 53:07 “They think they are wise.”

John Bytheway: 53:09 It’s Second Nephi 9. I like to call it the O’s and Wo’s chapter because after Jacob does all the, “O, the greatness of God. O, the goodness of God. O, the great plan of our God,” then he goes to some wo’s, but this is still an O, verse 28, “O, the cunning plan of the evil one. O, the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men. When they are learned, they think they are wise.” Teresa, anything on that?

Dr. Teresa Bell: 53:32 I think he covered it really well.

John Bytheway: 53:34 It’s interesting that I feel like this theme is of Paul, the wisdom of men and the power of God, and going back and forth on those two.

Hank Smith: 53:42 Yeah. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen it, and Teresa, you might comment on this. Just in my own experience in academia, anything that is spiritual or supernatural, you might say, is seen as so foolish that it’s almost laughable.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 53:59 It is very true, and we do see that all the time. It feels like that there is a general… I don’t know. Consensus might be strong, but in academia that you can’t have spiritual with scientific. Something that you can’t prove empirically, like you said, is foolishness and like, “Why would you believe that? Why would you even think about that if you can’t prove something empirically?”

Hank Smith: 54:23 In some circles, and I don’t want to impugn every academic, but there does seem to be academic arrogance when you start to think, “I know more to believe those,” whatever you might say. It’s interesting. This is just a side note, but it’s interesting how many religion professors have to walk that line. Do you remember Kerry Muhlestein told us, John, as an Egyptologist, that he was going to write a paper on the book of Abraham, and he said, “I knew my academic career was over as soon as I submitted this paper?”

John Bytheway: 54:55 Mm.

Hank Smith: 54:56 Right? He said, “My wife and I pushed ‘Submit’ together,” because he had won UCLA’s top dissertation. He got the number one dissertation of the year in Egyptology, and it was all going to come crashing down because he was going to defend the book of Abraham.

Dr. Teresa Bell: 55:14 That is an amazing story.

John Bytheway: 55:18 Please join us for part two of this podcast.