John Bytheway: 00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 00:07 Section 127. He opens it up referring to the accusations of John C. Bennett and our nemesis, former Missouri Governor Lilburn Boggs, who had sent out the Extermination Order. And he talks about the perils that he’s passing through. I love verse 2 Yeah, John, do you want to read verse 2.

John Bytheway: 00:31 “And as for the perils which I am called to pass through, though they seem but a small thing to me, as the envy and wrath of man have been my common law all the days of my life; and for what cause it seems mysterious, unless I was ordained from before the foundation of the world for some good end, or bad, as you may choose to call it judge ye for yourselves. God know with all these things, whether it be good or bad. But nevertheless, deep water is what I am wont to swim in. It all has become a second nature to me, and I feel like Paul, to glory and tribulation; for to this day, has the God of my fathers delivered me out of them all, and will deliver me from henceforth; for behold, and lo, I shall triumph over all my enemies for the Lord God has spoken it.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 01:14 What an incredible attitude.

John Bytheway: 01:17 Yeah, it’s like he’s saying, it’s second nature to me, like I’m used to it now. Oh, I would never get used to that.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 01:24 No. But it kind of reminds me of Joseph Smith History where he talks about how all these people are against him, and I just think, wow.

Hank Smith: 01:35 Yeah, he’s just, it’s been 22 years since he went into the grove. And he’s like, “Yeah, this has been–

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 01:40 Nothing’s changed.

Hank Smith: 01:41 –life ever since.

John Bytheway: 01:42 I just wanted to know what church to join.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 01:46 Now look at me.

Hank Smith: 01:48 22 years later.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 01:50 So he goes on to give some instructions about baptisms for the dead, and the importance of keeping record. And I love how he quotes from Matthew, in verse 7 about binding on earth, what may be bound in heaven. I think this is really significant, because I think it goes back to what Moroni told Joseph in his bedroom in 1823. And what is Section 2 of the Doctrine and Covenants. This is not a one-time recitation of a scripture in the middle of the night. It’s something that has continued, this whole idea of salvation, which continues in Section 128 for the salvation of the dead, who should die without a knowledge of the gospel. And he talks about how their salvation in verse 15 is necessary and essential to our salvation. “That they without us cannot be made perfect. Neither can we, without our dead be made perfect.” So I just think that’s so interesting, how it’s all coming full circle.

John Bytheway: 02:54 And it’s all family, it’s hearts of fathers and children and binding us together. The temple all about family, everything. And so was the spirit of Elijah that we talked about, and everything Malachi said, was all about binding this family together.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 03:16 Right. So he had that powerful experience in the Kirtland Temple, which is now in Section 110, where he is visited by these people that give these priesthood holders, they give him the keys to actually do this. But think about that was in 1836. He learned about this from Moroni in 1823, that’s 13 years. And now, it isn’t till 1840, that he learns about the baptisms for the dead. So it’s just coming piece by piece, over time, it’s a progression of an understanding.

Hank Smith: 03:55 It’s almost like Moroni  introduced an idea that, all right, the process begins. And it’s a long process from 1823, now to 1842. Yes, I like wait line upon line just a little bit of the time.

John Bytheway: 04:11 The Continuous Restoration. Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 04:13 I love it. President Nelson says that, and I think it’s true.

John Bytheway: 04:16 So glad.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 04:16 I love that this idea is kind of fermenting in his head. So he’s trying to figure it out, and I love the idea of the turning to the fathers. And I think about Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and this whole Abrahamic Covenant, and the House of Israel and all being a part of this. “The same sociality that exists in this life will continue in the next life.” And the idea that we are welded together and bound together in this covenant in this new and everlasting covenant. I think it’s so beautiful.

Hank Smith: 04:54 Joseph calls it in 128:9, this is, “A very bold doctrine that we talked of.” I love that idea that yeah, we’re talking about binding together from Adam to 1842 to 2021, and it’s a big idea.

John Bytheway: 05:11 I just I love the idea I’ve talked about this, Hank, is that sometimes the Lord gives us these tasks, that seems so impossible. I want you to find the name of every person who’s ever lived on earth and go do their work for them. This is going to go on in the Millennium, I think we’ve been taught and some that have never kept records, somehow we’ll have all of that. But it’s all about binding the family together. And Hank, you mentioned the word bold in the manual that said, Joseph Smith use phrases like “binding power,” “welding link” in perfect union when teaching about priesthood ordinances, and baptism for the dead. Why is bold a good word to describe the doctrine of salvation for the death? So yeah, there’s a lot of great adjectives here, because nobody in the Christian world was doing this.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 06:02 No. And in fact, in our day, I think it’s so interesting with a pandemic, what was the temple first opened for? Living ordinances and baptisms. The second thing was baptisms for the dead.

John Bytheway: 06:16 And you know what gave me a lot of hope when the pandemic started, and we were all wondering how long and so forth what gave me hope was that we still kept hearing about new temples getting announced in general conferences like no. No, it’s we’re moving forward and the temple work for the dead will go forward.

Hank Smith: 06:36 I can’t imagine the slowdown in the Spirit World, everybody’s shuffling through, getting their work done and then it all comes to a screeching halt. “What happened? I know they shut everything down, down there.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 06:51 So I met ordinance worker in the Oquirrh Mountain Temple. And I love every part of it. I worked in the Salt Lake Temple before it closed, and now I’m down in South Jordan, but I love watching the youth come in to do baptisms, and how excited they are. And they have their recommends, and they’ve done this a ton of times. This isn’t like, when I was young, we went like once a year with our ward-

Hank Smith: 07:18 I remember.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 07:18 … but these kids come all the time. And they have to make appointments, which I love. So they can only have 16, in our temple being baptized at a time. And then it’s so fun on the other side of the temple, to watch adults come in and do initiatory and do the endowment and do sealings, and see this brand fresh, new excitement of being able to come back to the temple. It’s incredible.

John Bytheway: 07:53 Elder John H. Groberg of The Other Side of Heaven, some of the young people may have seen that movie, some of the old people too. But he wrote this book called Refugees in Reality, and he tells the story. And I’ll paraphrase as best I can, but when he was president of the Idaho Falls Temple, he said he used to hear people leaving the temple and kind of sighing and saying, “Back to the real world.” And he said I knew what they meant, but it kind of bothered me. Something about that phrase bothered me and I’d hear it again, “Now go back to the real world.” And he said one time I heard somebody say that, I went up to the front door, and I said, “Wrong. Only that which is permanent is real. What happened in here today is permanent, and that is real.”

John Bytheway: 08:33 That world out there is temporary, that world is going to end. This is the real world. Come back soon to the real world. They said, “Okay thanks, President.” And I thought, “Oh, what a wonderful way to look at it.” This is the real world. This is the eternal world that’s going to last and that world out there, that’s the temporary one that we’re having so many ups and downs in.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 08:55 I love that. That’s great.

Hank Smith: 08:57 I’ve heard someone say with the Fall of Adam and Eve, the Garden of Eden was an overlap of heaven and earth and then the Fall comes and splits them apart. And then Jesus comes and stretches out his arms and pulls them together. And where they first start to overlap is the temple. They first start to overlap right there. And soon they’ll be brought back together again, that heaven and earth will be back together again. But for right now they’re just overlapping a little bit and it’s there at the temple. I always loved that idea.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 09:26 Yeah, that’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 09:28 Jenny, is there anything else in 127, 128, we need to see?

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 09:32 Well, I don’t think we can leave 128 without reading some of those incredible verses. Verse 12, Hank, why don’t you read that?

Hank Smith: 09:43 Okay. “Herein, is glory and honor, and immortality and eternal life–The ordinance of baptism by water, to be immersed therein, in order to answer to the likeness of the dead, that one principle might accord with the other; to be immersed in the water and come forth, out of the water is the likeness of the resurrection of the dead in coming forth out of their graves; hence, this ordinance was instituted to form a relationship with the ordinance of baptism for the dead, being in likeness of the dead.” It’s just a beautiful idea, that here I’m going to be baptized for someone who has died and they’re being resurrected. I mean, they’re going to come back to life.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 10:28 I love it. And I think it’s just what you guys were talking about that overlap of before the Fall, and after the Fall, and after the Resurrection, and if the real worlds like John said, I think it’s really cool.

John Bytheway: 10:44 Paul talks about, “We’re buried with Him by baptism.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 10:48 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 10:48 Then we walk in newness of life. I’m glad to have a kind of a parallel text here to say, “Yeah, baptism is like being buried under the water, is like a death. Romans 6:4, therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. So that’s Romans 6:4, a good footnote to make there if you want.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 11:14 I love the imagery of the sacrament, because I think it’s very similar. And I’ve heard people talk about this, and maybe you can speak more to it. But that it’s like, there’s a body lying under that white cloth. And then we’re partaking of that body. It’s coming out and we’re ingesting it. And we’re remembering the body and the blood and the covenants that we’ve made, and it just reminds me of that. And that bread, living bread and living water gives us that life to stand back up and leave the Church and go to the real world.

John Bytheway: 11:50 Yeah. It’s like the sacrament table is a table of communion like we’re eating the Last Supper, but it’s also like an altar when we remember the body and the blood of Christ. And I’ve loved that idea. I had a friend point that out to me. Kim Peterson teaches Institute down in Cedar City and said, “You walk in the chapel, you see that cloth covering the sacral table but almost resembles a body being covered by a cloth. And we’re remembering Jesus’s body and blood. Yeah, I’m glad you brought the sacrament into that because baptism and the sacrament, those go together.

Hank Smith: 12:27 128 verse 15, I think we just looked at this. You said that they without us cannot be made perfect as the very end, neither can we without our dead be made perfect. I remember looking at this for the longest time, kind of understanding the idea of they need us. We have physical bodies, we’re going to go do these ordinances. But after looking at this for just a couple of years thinking about it, there is a work happening on their side on our behalf. I’m not quite sure what it is, what they do exactly, but I do believe that just like we’re going to the temple to serve them, they are in response serving us and there’s a connection there. Especially our ancestors, those who–

John Bytheway: 13:13 –there are so many interesting stories about people that have come from the Spirit World, and well, even they always appear to be busy. Like they’re not floating around. They are busy over there doing, it would be fun to know what that is. Wouldn’t it Hank? Exactly what it is. But probably working for hours, as it sounds working to help us and we’re working for an hour, as it sounds, to help us.

Hank Smith: 13:39 “The angels speak by the power of the Holy Ghost.” We might all go, oh, that I felt the Holy Ghost, I felt that Holy Ghost, but it could be these angels working on our behalf.

John Bytheway: 13:50 Like a delegation.

Hank Smith: 13:52 Yeah.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 13:52 Well, and I just keep coming back to Malachi. “If it were not so the whole earth would be utterly wasted,” that you can’t have a select few that are saved, but it’s everybody. Everybody has to have that opportunity. And what a great and gracious and loving God. It makes sense.

Hank Smith: 14:18 Malachi is quoted again 128.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 14:20 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 14:21 This one shows up in all the standard works over and over and over.

John Bytheway: 14:25 Yeah, Malachi prophecy. And I love that when Jesus comes to the New World, I mean, he’s the one that revealed it to Malachi but he honors and respects his servant and gives them the words of Malachi when it comes to the righteous in the New World, which I think is interesting. He doesn’t just say, “Well, I told Malachi this.” He says, “This is what Malachi said.” I think that’s cool.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 14:49 Yeah, it just all comes together. And it comes together for us too every Sunday, or tomorrow I’m going to go work in the temple. Every time we make an appointment to work in the temple. I love the whole idea of how we can become Saviors on Mount Zion. Eliza R. Snow talks a lot about that. And I think that even goes back to the Relief Society, the ideas of finding relief by providing relief, and saving souls by caring for others. It’s this sense of doing something that people can’t do for themselves of me sitting on the stairs and Marianne Anderson coming over and sitting with me, and how much I needed that. And in that moment, she was like Jesus Christ for me, just bringing me under her arms. And she in that moment was a Savior on Mount Zion for me. I just think it’s such an incredible connection of at one moment of coming together to do what Christ would do.

Hank Smith: 15:57 Yeah. And that’s got to be why he wants this done one by one. I could take you to the temple and say, I baptize you for on behalf of every woman who’s ever died.

John Bytheway: 16:06 Yeah, we could be really efficient about this. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 16:08 But the Savior says, “No, we’re going to do this one by one.” And it’s very much a Savior way of doing things. He does things one by one, each individual, it’s important, we’re going to look at each one.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 16:21 And we’re going to find as much of their name as we can and pronounce it the best that we can.

John Bytheway: 16:28 Yeah. It’s been fun to see my 15-year-0old son has been called as a, what do they call it? A Family History-

Hank Smith: 16:39 -Consultant.

John Bytheway: 16:40 -Consultant or Specialist or something. And he’s without any pushing from mom, dad, there he is on the computer doing a name extraction. And you walk by and you go, “Did I just feel the Spirit of Elijah?” And there’s Timothy going at it and helping to do this work. I think it’s kind of Elder Bednar that we got to get the youth involved in this, and they’re good with technology. And look what wonderful thing you can do with technology, which has been fun to see that so many young people involved in this, like we have been talking the Spirit of Elijah.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 17:18 Yeah. When I was really sick, well, I’ve had my leukemia has come back three times. And I’ve had two bone marrow transplants. But there been a couple times and that was after I moved to Utah. So I was closer to family, which was nice. But I did a lot of sitting around, you could say. My stepdad is like the master indexer, and every time I see him, he catches me up on the number he’s at. But he introduced me to indexing, because that was something again, I felt like I could do from my couch or my bed with my laptop. And it’s, again, I am helping this effort and in a sense, I am becoming a Savior on Mount Zion, even if I’m in my pajamas, and have no hair. It’s really, really an exciting program.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 18:14 In fact, I’m a lot busier now in my life, you could say, but my ward, Family History person texted me and said, “Hey, I see that you used to index. Can I invite you to do that again, some more?” And I’m like, “Are you kidding me? I have no time now.” But then I’m like, “You know what? I’ve got 10 minutes on a Sunday to capture some names.” Yeah. And I’ve gotten to be pretty good at reading old handwriting, it just comes with my job. So I’m like, I have the skill, I might as well.

Hank Smith: 18:49 Jenny, you said it’s so exciting. And I noticed that in [Section] 128, Joseph gets so excited in his writing. He’s writing these doctrines and he’s very, let’s look at the scriptures, let’s look at 1 Corinthians. Let’s look at Malachi and then towards the end, this sense of excitement comes reminds me of 2 Nephi 4. It starts in around verse 19. “Now what do we hear in the gospel …?”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 19:19 Yeah. I love these verses.

Hank Smith: 19:21 A voice of gladness. You get to know Joseph Smith a little bit here.

John Bytheway: 19:30 Part of this, I think is got to be his brother Alvin, how excited he is for that. But I love to emphasize the word we in that, what do we hear? A lot of people, critics might look at us and say this or that about the Church or the gospel or our work, but what do we hear? We hear gladness. We hear mercy. We hear glad tidings.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 19:54 It kind of reminds me of that I love and I too I love verse 22, where he says, “Shall we not go on so great a cause, go forward and not backward courage brethren.” I went to Italy in my mission and they’d always say, coraggio, “Have courage.”

John Bytheway: 20:12 Help me out, where is he writing this from? Because he’s in the midst of a lot of trials himself and look at the optimism coming out from there.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 20:20 Well, and I think let’s just contrast that to Section 127, verse two that we read, “Where he says for the perils I am called to pass through . . . deep waters is what I am wont to swim in.” And then the next, what is it the next day, a couple days later, he says, “Let’s go on. Let’s go on to the victory.” And he’s actually writing this while he’s in hiding in Nauvoo.

John Bytheway: 20:48 Okay. Yeah, that’s what I was wondering because he’s in hiding, but he’s writing, “Hey, courage, let’s go on, on to victory.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 20:57 Yeah. And I love it. I think it kind of reminds me of that little footnote, that Oliver Cowdery writes in Joseph Smith History, when they receive the priesthood. Do you know what I’m talking about?

Hank Smith: 21:11 Yeah, where they receive the priesthood.

John Bytheway: 21:12 I think seven exclamation points in there. The actual section what is it 13? John the Baptist comes. But when you hear Oliver describe it, “We gazed! We wondered! We admired!” He’s so excited.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 21:29 “These were days never to be forgotten.”

John Bytheway: 21:31 Great phrase, right there.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 21:34 That’s what all of this reminds me of.

Hank Smith: 21:37 “Uncertainty,” Oliver writes. “Uncertainty had fled, doubt had sunk no more to rise. Well, fiction and deception had fled forever.” I mean, just beautiful writing. And I’m looking at you, Jenny, I’m going, okay. Here’s Joseph Smith in hiding, saying, “Wow, my life is really hard, but I’m excited.” And you remind me doing the same thing. Here you are going through, you said your leukemia has come back three times and here you are very excited about the temple, the gospel and Church History in writing. I just think there’s a lesson there for all of us that you can be in deep water and the gospel can penetrate that and lift you.

John Bytheway: 22:25 I think we throw the phrase around so often, but it is so powerful to have an eternal perspective, which Jenny clearly has. And this–

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 22:35 –some days I don’t.

John Bytheway: 22:37 Yeah, some days.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 22:39 On most, yeah.

John Bytheway: 22:40 Today, I have a finite perspective.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 22:42 It’s a finite day. But like just reading the scriptures and talking helps me realize how great it is to be alive. And to be here and to be a part of this conversation and to be doing the work that I’m doing with Women’s History, and making their voices and their names known. It’s so much more than just recording it in the book, or in the computer at the temple, but to know who they are, to know who Jane Nyman was, and to know Emma, and to know that they were real and they too rejoiced in this. I love it.

Hank Smith: 23:19 Yeah, I’d love it too. I want if we can read just a couple of these verses, because–

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 23:24 -yes, please.

Hank Smith: 23:24 If we continue into verse 19, it’s a voice of gladness, John, you said, “A voice for mercy, a voice of truth, a voice of gladness for the living and the dead. Glad tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that bring glad tidings of good things, and that say unto Zion: Behold thy God reigneth!” And then he goes on in verse 20. And what do we hear?

John Bytheway: 23:47 “Glad tidings from Cumorah.”

Hank Smith: 23:47 “Glad tidings from Cumorah,” and all these exclamation points of these experiences he’s had. He’s going back saying, “I have had incredible experiences.” And then 22, Jenny, the one you read, “Brethren, shall we not go on and so great a cause? Go forward, not backward. Courage, brethren, and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing.” I mean, you can’t read this and not feel it.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 24:16 Well, and you can’t read it and not smile. We are a part of this. How cool is that?

John Bytheway: 24:25 And I love verse 23, “Ye rivers, and brooks and rills, flow down with gladness.” All of nature is celebrating here. “Let the sun, moon, and the  morning stars sing together.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 24:40 “And let all the sons and daughters of God shout for joy.” I think so often we get caught up in the details of our lives and how things are going to work out and how we’re going to get somewhere on time and how we’re going to complete an assignment or clean the house or whatever, that we forget that we should be shouting for joy. That we have this doctrine and that we have this understanding of our place in this continuous restoration. And that we have joined with Joseph and Emma, as well as Adam and Eve, and Abraham and Sarah. That were all a part of this. We’re going to turn our hearts to them, as they have worked to teach us and guide us and bring us into this great House of Israel.

Hank Smith: 25:35 Yeah. And then we reach out automatically for each other. We’re all part of this same work, he says, towards the end. I mean, he really puts a stamp on the end of it. He said, let us therefore, as a church, and a people and as Latter-day Saints, “Offer unto the Lord and offering in righteousness.” And then towards the end, “Let it be worthy of all acceptation.” I mean, it’s just a Malachi again, he’s so excited.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 26:04 At the end of verse 23. I mean, he’s bringing all these this temple language right from the sealing ordinance, that, “Glory and salvation and honor and immortality and eternal life principalities and powers.” Oh my gosh, that’s so much it’s everything.

Hank Smith: 26:22 I love that this is a letter, not a revelation. I’ve loved the revelations we’ve been reading but it does let you into the personality of Joseph Smith, the man here in these letters.

John Bytheway: 26:35 First, verse 25, “Brethren, I have many things to say you on the subject; but now close.” You’re like, “No! Don’t! Keep going!”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 26:42 Keep going!

John Bytheway: 26:44 What else you got?

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 26:45 He’s like I got writer’s cramp. This is killing my hand-

Hank Smith: 26:49 All these exclamation points.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 26:50 … with my turkey quill.

John Bytheway: 26:53 I think Hank, we’ve talked about this, but you lost your dad recently, I lost my mom recently. I have this picture of my mom right here on my desk. And I have this statement of Elder Holland. “Don’t underestimate your family on the other side of the veil.” And as we talked what they’re doing and what can they do for us? What can we do for them? I thank you Jenny for bringing up the saviors on Mount Zion idea. Just we hear it a lot, but we can do for others what they cannot do for themselves, right now in their present state. And that’s the excitement of temples who gave the talk in General Conference of about the temples at the end, President Nelson just really made me want to get back there.

Hank Smith: 27:42 Merrill Bateman, I remember, President of BYU for a really long time. Yeah, I remember the First Quorum of the Seventy then becomes the Provo Temple President. And I got a chance to talk to him after that. And he said, “In all my work as a General Authority…” and that was a lot of work, a lot of time. He said, “I never saw or knew how thin the veil was in the temple until this calling as Temple President.” He just said, I just never understood the work that goes between the two. And that was a moment for me where I thought wow, even as a General Authority said he didn’t see it until serving there in the temple.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 28:32 That’s so awesome. We just got a new Temple Presidency in the Oquirrh Mountain Temple. And their sort of theme or motto for us as workers is, “Come to the temple and receive Christ.” Again, we’ve talked a little bit about how this is kind of a process and it happens over time. And the men received their endowment in May of 1842, and the women didn’t receive theirs until September of 1843. So it’s a little off, which is interesting. However, I think something that’s really interesting is that Newell K. Whitney, the day after he is initiated into this holy order, or receives his endowment, he comes to the Nauvoo Relief Society. And he says, like he can’t get it out of his head. He can’t stop talking about it. And he tells them as the Lord has said, “Neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man.” The fullness of the priesthood requires both.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 29:40 So that’s what he had learned in that temple ordinance. Now, like I said, it was over a year later when Emma was actually the first person, the first woman to receive her temple initiatory and ordinances from Joseph, which I think seems proper as the Elect Lady and as the First Lady and as the eternal wife of Joseph. And then she gave the initiatory to other women, Bathsheba Smith and Lucy Mack Smith and others. But I just, we talk so much about how I don’t know if you to have this but I remember in my granddad’s office in his den, he had a chart that was like his priesthood lineage. So he had received the priesthood from I don’t know, Harold B. Lee, and yeah–

Hank Smith: 30:35 –maybe his father-

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 30:35 … who received it from, yeah, it goes back to Peter, James and John and Jesus Christ, those charts. And we don’t keep these records, but how cool as women to be able to say I received my temple lineage from Emma Smith.

Hank Smith: 30:51 Yeah. It all started there. That is awesome. And the temple was being worked on. So is this all taking place in the Red Brick Store?

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 30:58 It was. It was taking place in the Red Brick Store, and also when Emma would initiate or provide initiatories for these other women who would be in their home, in the Mansion House. So it’s so interesting to me how the Lord works through, for example, baptisms for the dead happening in the Mississippi River, when that ordinance was first revealed. And then as soon as the basement of the Nauvoo Temple was completed, and they put a font in there, then they said, “Okay, no more baptisms in the river, you got to do it in the font in the temple,” but they did do that.

Hank Smith: 31:40 That’s also the same thing with the endowment. Right?

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 31:43 Right. Yeah. So after a time, they waited until the temple was completed.

John Bytheway: 31:56 I think, we talked about that verse before baptism, kind of looking at being like a death and resurrection of symbolically being born again. And I was going to mention that now that you said that the font is always in the basement of the temples, it’s always fonts are always underground level to maintain that symbol of being buried and being born again.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 32:21 I would say it all comes out of the same idea of bringing people into the family of Christ, and bringing them into the house of Israel to have part of this Abrahamic Covenant with posterity, the sands of the sea and the stars in the sky. I think it all comes back to that welding link, and the Malachi verses that Joseph learned from 1823. So I really think that he wanted to bring people into this large family, his family, the family of Christ, and the House of Israel. Some of his early the women, some of the women that he married early were young orphans that lived in his home. And he wanted them to have access to that family, and to make them a part of his family. Some of the women were married to men that didn’t have, that weren’t worthy priesthood holders, and he wanted them to have access to that priesthood.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 33:30 He was such a firm believer in this very progressive idea of patriarchal and matriarchal. So while he was the patriarch, Emma was the matriarch and they couldn’t be separated. It was men and women like no, okay, Whitney said in Nauvoo Relief Society. They all needed to be a part of this. And I think initially, he saw this as a way to bring these people together into one family. In fact, he does that with the Whitneys and the Kimballs when he is sealed to their daughters. He’s connecting their families and bringing their families together. And something else I think is interesting, just a couple of things that I would say about polygamy. First of all, we don’t even know what language Joseph used. The only thing written is Section 132. And that literally was intended to be a very private revelation for him and for Emma. It wasn’t included in the Doctrine and Covenants until 1876 When Orson Pratt included it.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 34:36 And it wasn’t read aloud to anybody until 1852 when Brigham Young asked him to read it aloud. So Joseph’s polygamy and Brigham’s polygamy were very different. During Joseph’s time in Nauvoo was very private and sacred and confidential, and they didn’t talk about it. Which may be one reason why Emma told her sons at the end of her life that Joseph never practiced polygamy ,because she was being true to that covenant that she wouldn’t speak of it. But then it became very public and it raised a lot of attention. And just the practice and the living of it was very different with Brigham Young. We know that Joseph didn’t have children, any babies with any of his plural wives. And Emma was pregnant when he died. So Brigham Young, and Utah was very different.

Hank Smith: 35:32 Yeah, I think you’re giving us a healthy way to enter this topic. And a topic that many people just avoid, and we don’t want to avoid it. Like you said it was happening in Nauvoo and it was part of this idea of the family, the welding link of family.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 35:51 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Also, I would highly recommend a book by Brittany Chapman Nash that just came out from Deseret Book, it’s Let’s Talk About Polygamy is what it’s called. And it’s just a little book. And it’s so well explained and so well written, and you could sit down and read it in one sitting.

Hank Smith: 36:12 Okay, this is wonderful. We’re giving our listeners a way to come at this in a very healthy faith-promoting way and come away with even a stronger testimony of Joseph and his work and how difficult for that marriage.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 36:30 I have to say this about Emma though. John, I’m sure you finish the book but there’s so many people including Brigham Young, that have not thought very highly of Emma. But I believe that her story is a story of redemption. And I think it’s a beautiful story. We know that in 1830, and what we now know is Section 25, she is promised an inheritance, a crown of righteousness, and she can enter in the presence of the Lord. She has to do some certain things, she has to lay aside the things of this world and murmur not at what she has not seen. And she has to go with Joseph at the time of his going. I also think that’s why she stayed in Nauvoo. She was staying with Joseph at the time of his staying. But she did have trouble with Brigham Young, he spoke very poorly of her. She spoke not well of him.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 37:32 And at the end of her life, she had a dream where Joseph came to her and took her to a beautiful mansion. Now, remember how many times they had had to relocate, and cross frozen rivers and live with other people. She lived with Sarah Cleveland. She lived with Elizabeth Ann Whitney, both of whom were her counselors in the Nauvoo Relief Society. And yet once she had a home she welcomed so many people into that home. But Joseph took her to this mansion in her dream, and they went into a nursery and in the nursery was her baby Don Carlos that had died when he was 14-months-old. And she picked him up and held him and she said, “Joseph, where are the others?” And he said, “You will have them, every one.”

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 38:20 And then she turned around and she saw Jesus Christ, which in my mind says that she has cleaved unto her covenants, and that she has been true and that she in fact, has received an inheritance and has been redeemed. I am so grateful for that. I think for her it happened in different ways. And it can happen for us or that we can see on the outside of other people, which I think is important to recognize. But what an incredible woman?

Hank Smith: 39:00 Wow. That so well said, thank you, Jenny. I remember being younger and hearing about Emma Smith and it’s almost complete opposite of what we talked about. And that makes me so happy having read at least a little bit about our story, I can’t wait to read your book.

John Bytheway: 39:11 I knew that she had kind of been given a calling assignment to assemble the hymns, but the book really helped me see how she persisted in that and there were different editions that came out and how hard she worked to fulfill that assignment. And that was really fun to hear that she’d never let go of that calling and assignment and kept working on it even with the Reorganized Church or Community of Christ Church, she just kept going to do that with the hymns and hymns are important to me. And so I loved that aspect of it. I hope people will read this and get better acquainted with Emma.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 39:50 Well, and I love the fact that she had such an influence on our legacy of worship through hymns. And she’s told in Section 25, “To expound the scriptures and exhort the church.” And she does that through the hymns. She’s preaching doctrine of the gospel, as well as encouraging and cheering through the hymns. And I love that, because we have the hymns that can be a congregational experience, where we come together as a community of Saints. But it’s also a very individual experience, where when we are in times of great need, we can call upon the hymns and worship God. And He says, He will answer it immediately with, “A prayer upon our heads.” And I’m so grateful that she opened that up for us.

Hank Smith: 40:20 Dr. Reader, Jenny, you have been studying the history of the Church for two decades now. And you don’t look it, but you’ve been studying and you’ve been through a series of difficulties that most humans just haven’t had to face. So here you are in this unique position, as a very well educated, and yet someone who has seen dark days and yet it’s inspiring that here you are, you choose faith, you believe in the Restoration. So I think our listeners would love to hear your thoughts on that journey, and why you love the Restoration.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 41:20 That’s such a great question. And I’m really glad that you’re asking it. I came to know the women of the Nauvoo Relief Society, when I was working as a research assistant for Jill Derr and Carol Madsen, who were publishing the Nauvoo Relief Society Minutes, eventually, as First Fifty Years of Relief Society. But their words whispered to me from those pages, and I could feel them and hear them. And I knew that I have been called to do this work. So I knew that I had to get a PhD, and that I had to receive the proper credentials, earn, let’s say, earn the proper credentials. And it’s been so weird to me that so many things have come up and sort of tried to stop me or have stopped me for a time, like leukemia four times and two bone marrow transplants. But I know that I have a mission to perform. And I received a priesthood blessing before my first transplant, saying that my life would not be cut short until I had fulfilled my mission.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 42:50 And by that first transplant was awful, like the worst. I mean, I got new marrow for my brother, Ben, and he’s the best. And then it started attacking me again, a couple years later, and I did not want to do another transplant, because I knew how awful they were. And there was like a 4% chance of success. But after talking to one of my doctors, I realized that I had a mission to perform, and that I had to do everything that I could to keep my body alive to do that. So I did it and I got marrow from my second brother, and that in and of itself, that second transplant where I received his blood happened on Good Friday, in April of 2017. And it made the idea of Christ and His blood, so much more real and giving me life. So that’s been a powerful testimony to me. On the other hand, I realized too this power of welding and sealing, I was very close to my granddad and he passed away while I was in the middle of my PhD program.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 43:50 But I can’t tell you how many times I felt him with me, just sitting with me in an empty hospital room late at night. But not only him, it’s also my ladies. They’ve been with me, Eliza and Emma and Jane and so many others. They’ve been with me and I feel that and I think, I too go through these periods where I have doubts and questions. And I don’t get polygamy all the time. So I’ve tried to make it palatable for myself, or other things where I get frustrated working in a bureaucracy at work, where there’s always politics in every institution. And I actually, I appreciate it, because I know that none of us are perfect that we’re all imperfect mortals. We’re in a mortal world, I think my DNA wasn’t great, honestly. And because I agree to come to this earth, that I agree to have an imperfect body, and other people do too. But I’m so grateful for the fact of imperfection.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 45:10 And that’s, in fact, what brings me greater faith, to know that it is only through Jesus Christ, that we can be healed, and that he does pay the price. And that there is compensation for all the things that are lost, for all the hairs on my head that were lost, that there will be compensation for that. I believe in the Abrahamic Covenant with all of my heart. I’m not married, and I want to be, but treatments have caused me not to be able to have kids and that breaks my heart too. But I have learned how to expand my definitions, and be a mother to my incredible nieces and nephews and to the work that I do, that I am filling the measure of my creation. And it’s not easy, but nothing, it wasn’t easy for anybody. And that’s why I stay, because it wasn’t easy for anybody. Everybody has to go through all of that. And I see that side of their lives and I’m grateful for that.

Hank Smith: 46:16 Thank you so much for that. That hit me really hard. John, we’ve been blessed today. 

John Bytheway: 46:23 Absolutely. I feel like everything you just shared will add an exclamation point to the whole to the whole thing. And it will be like you sitting with those who are also suffering because there are so many that are, so thank you so much.

Hank Smith: 46:41 Yeah, to me that mourn with those that mourn, comfort those extend need of comfort.

Dr. Jennifer Reeder: 46:50 Just kind of sit on my stare and put your arm around me and cry with me.

John Bytheway: 46:51 Great story. Reminded me of Job’s friends at first, they just sat with him.

Hank Smith: 47:00 Wow. Wow. Wow. We want to thank Dr. Jenny Reeder for being here today. I’m sure all of you listening are feeling the same way John and I are, just grateful. It was good for us to be here. Thank you to all of you who listened and we can’t do this without you. We wouldn’t have a podcast without our listeners. Thank you to our executive producers, Steven Shannon Sorensen and to our production crew. We have David Perry, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton and Jamie Neilson. And we love you and we hope all of you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.