John Bytheway: 00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Susan Black: 00:07 So, we know that the Lord is telling Joseph Smith that there’s been baptisms done in the river, right? But it’s now time to have a house where the ordinances could be performed. And the baptisms in the river, it was not, if you were to look at Nauvoo, from 1841, when they really into the baptisms for the dead to Joseph’s death, if you were to say, “What was the most consistent, almost daily experience of the Saints?” And it’s baptisms for the dead. And what I’ve been, I found so fascinating putting together six volumes of these baptisms for the dead is that people knew the names of their ancestors. I found one man, he did the names for 32 generations out there in the Mississippi River. Whereas we looked today and I’m not sure that my grandchildren could give the full name of my mother.

Dr. Susan Black: 01:15 Do you see that? In other words, they’ve got other things going for them. But they also did baptisms work for their friends as well as family. So Hyrum Smith goes into the Mississippi and does the work for Alvin Smith, his brother that had died back there in Palmyra. Don Carlos Smith did the work for his friend, George Washington, who obviously they aren’t peers, but the women of Nauvoo when they wrote of Don Carlos Smith said, “He was the most handsome man in Nauvoo, as long as he was wearing his Nauvoo Legion uniform.” So obviously Don Carlos Smith, like George Washington.

Dr. Susan Black: 02:02 But by Section 24 the Lord is saying, “I need a house.” And I think that it’s pretty interesting. There were four different architects in the town of Nauvoo, including Truman O. Angell, who was the architect of the Salt Lake Temple. But Joseph didn’t call on him, he called on William Weeks. And what I like about William Weeks, William Weeks would go down by the Mississippi River. He would see these baptisms going on and he didn’t see a recorder. And he’s one of the ones that made note of that and started writing who were out there doing baptisms for the dead.

Dr. Susan Black: 02:47 And so I think when Joseph asked him to be the architect, he already has a spirit of the work. It isn’t just, “I’m constructing another building in town.” In fact, he was the architect of the Nauvoo House. It’s not just another building where you’re going to welcome people so they can contemplate great things, but a building for ordinances. And so, but this building was going to be the most unusual building that William Weeks had ever built. And by the way, I lived four months in his house, he truly was an architect. I mean, he had four fireplaces and I’m not a decorator, I struggled decorating one, let alone four, but okay. So William Weeks, he is told by Joseph, “I want you to design it, but basically according to my vision. And I wanted round windows.” And you’re like, “Round windows, can we do that at that time?” And he wanted sunstones, star stones, moonstones. He wanted a gold weather vane on top.

Dr. Susan Black: 03:52 I mean, Joseph had very, very definite ideas, but while Weeks is work and men are being called to be temple workers and it’s not to help with ordinances inside, but to cut the limestone, then from one of four quarries, we now have one quarry we call the Temple Quarry, but to cut the limestone and then bring it to Temple Square. But what they did, the people were so anxious to continue baptisms for the dead that they had a wooden font built. And it was brought to the main center of which would be the Nauvoo Temple, right? And they did, they built a house over it with a pitched roof.

Dr. Susan Black: 04:43 And then you start getting stones coming to Temple Square, but try and imagine, it’s the most unusual building I’ve ever thought of, because they’re building a building around a building. And so you’ve got land that was donated by Daniel H. Wells, who was not a member of the Church, he gave Joseph four acres, and Daniel H. Wells would go on to be in our First Presidency. But you’ve got in the middle of what’s going to be your stone building going around the outside, you’ve got a building with a pitched roof and people lining up to get in to continue doing their baptisms for the dead and others working on the walls to go up.

Dr. Susan Black: 05:27 And what I think is so interesting that you would, they would take the stones from the quarries. They would wrap rope around them and then bring these huge, huge boulder-like stones towards Temple Square. And as they would do so, each stone became a, it was like a parade. There was nothing more exciting in Nauvoo than parades. And as the stone would come up, the farmer would come to the side of his field, put his plow down and sing, “The Spirit of God Like a fire is burning.” The young kids they’d come out of their schoolhouse. They’d come, they’d sing. And you get to the business district. And suddenly they’re still singing, people coming out of their shops. And then the stones would be given to stone cutters. And many of them from the British Isles. And a stone cutter is different than a stone mason. I mean, a stone mason can take stones and then, here’s some kind of cement, another stone, but a stone cutter has to carve. And they were the ones that carved the tombstones you see in the old cemeteries in Nauvoo.

Dr. Susan Black: 06:36 So as they would carve these stones, each stone was like an artistic experience. And if we had been kids back then, wouldn’t that have been fun? But we’d be able to go to the walls of the Nauvoo Temple, and we’d be able to say, ff our father had been a stone cutter, “My dad did that stone,” and then look way up, “He did that stone. And he did that stone.” I mean, you look at the temple today and all the stones looked the same. I mean, we got such great tools, right? But back then it was huge personality. And the sacrifice was amazing. At one point, oh, you get Brother Maeser looking at Temple Square, he says, “It was like the blackbirds were everywhere. People were everywhere.” They came from every state in the union because they wanted to build. It was the biggest building since New Orleans up and down the Mississippi River. And people without tools were never turned away. You just needed a willing heart and go for it.”

Dr. Susan Black: 07:43 And as they began to build, they got it up a story and a half high, almost the same size as the Nauvoo House with a building in the middle, still the pitched roof, right? And so it’s after the death of Joseph, the question was, “Would the Church survive?” And people out in Philadelphia, they’re wearing black arm bands. In England, they’re putting black cloths on their sacrament tables in memory of Joseph. I mean, it’s just, there’s the question is, “Will we survive?” And continuing to build that Nauvoo Temple was a symbol, “Yes, we are surviving, and the work goes forward.”

Dr. Susan Black: 08:25 And when Brigham Young’s now home and leading the Church, he knows, as he looks over the town, he can see that Joseph wanted to have, “A city built on a hill.” But he looks and a lot of people still living in log cabins and clapboard houses and he can see the temple is not done. So he calls the men of public works and it’s build, build, build. He takes out the wooden font and the people literally run back to the river and keep going. They’ve got deceased, they want to be with their families forever.

Dr. Susan Black: 09:03 And finally you don’t get till May of 1845 the last stone goes on, but now you got to do the inside. And they only had the third floor finished when Brigham says, “We’re opening it up for endowments.” Because he wants to go West, but he’s not going to take the people West unless they’ve been endowed. So literally from December to February, less than 10 weeks, you get about 5,500 Latter-day Saints receive their endowments. And suddenly it’s flee Babylon. At that time, United States, 26 states, and it’s time to head West and fulfill the prophecy of Joseph Smith. The Saints are moving out.

John Bytheway: 09:50 Wow. That’s so interesting to hear. I love that idea that stone would go by and the farmers would stop and sing. And that is, I’ve never heard that before. That’s-

Dr. Susan Black: 10:01 Hey, you can even see that, John carrying on with the Salt Lake Temple as they’re coming from Little Cottonwood, longer distance as they’re coming down into the Salt Lake Valley. But that Spirit of God, I mean, from the Kirtland Temple dedication, all the way through to dedications now of literally hundreds of temples around the world. Spirit of God, like a fire is burning, and truly Nauvoo was such the case.

John Bytheway: 10:28 I like what you’ve added to about Brigham Young. So, tell us again, the temple is about how far along when Brigham Young takes over and, “Okay, we got to finish.” Was it-

Dr. Susan Black: 10:42 All right. So the temple is about what they called a storey and a half high. It’s kind of up to the window line that you see. And for Brigham, he wanted that temple built. He wanted the Saints to in essence build their memories of Joseph Smith. I mean, you can look at, well, my favorite story goes, well, two stories to Wilford Woodruff. At one point he’s riding in a carriage and he’s a little bit outside of Nauvoo and he sees the John Benbow Farm, obviously a more famous farm in England, but he see his Brother Benbow and he walks out into his field and he goes, “Brother Benbow,” he goes, “I don’t even think the Garden of Eden could be as beautiful as I now see your farm.” And Brother Benbow says, “Oh thank you, Wilford,” he says, “I’ve just dedicated it to my memory of Joseph Smith.”

Dr. Susan Black: 11:38 So shop, barn and for Wilford Woodruff, people have said, “Oh, he only lived in his house less than a month, and what was he thinking? He must have known they were going west.” As he was walking down the stairs he was carrying a table. There was a dent in the floor. He pulled it back. He said to his wife, “You have to wait.” He fixed it. Put the small rag rug right back over, gets in his wagon. And she goes, “What are you doing?” And he goes, “We’re going.” And she goes, “But it’s been so long.” In other words, everybody else is lining up to go. And he goes, “Someday,” as he left the front door open, he goes, “someone may know that Wilford Woodruff lived in this house.” And he said, “It’s my memory of Joseph.” He goes, “I have to leave it perfect.”

Dr. Susan Black: 12:28 And so what you’ve got, you not only get the building of the Nauvoo Temple, but when not building, well, Heber C. Kimball is in his home 40 some odd days. And I go, “Did he ever plan to really live in it?” And I go, “Oh no, it’s his memory of Joseph.” Much like, I’ve had people, well testimony meeting. I go, “If we were told to do that, I mean, I have to buy my entire block. There would be Hearst Castle and then there would be Black’s memory over here.” Because they just wanted to show the Lord their devotion, their so appreciation to live at a time with a prophet of God. And imagine, we live at the same time with a prophet of God today. I mean, how lucky couldn’t we be?

John Bytheway: 13:15 Yeah. And someday someone might know, someone might want to know that Wilford Woodruff lived here. That’s amazing. When do you think that Brigham sensed that, “We’re not going to be staying here. We’re going West.”

Dr. Susan Black: 13:31 Well, we know that Joseph Smith, when he’s over at Montrose in August of 1842, will be leaning against a building, say to Anson Call that, “The saints will be driven from here to the Rocky Mountains. And in the Rockies we will become a mighty people.” So we know that Brigham Young, he serves mission, mission, and then England. And then when he’s back, you see him kind of coming back and you see him side by side with Joseph really once he’s back and told, as we get into later sections, that he doesn’t have to leave his family anymore. And I would assume then that there are various meetings that they’re talking at great length about what’s coming up.

John Bytheway: 14:17 Don’t you have an upcoming book about Joseph and Brigham and their friendship?

Dr. Susan Black: 14:24 I do. In fact, it’s already out, by a company called-

John Bytheway: 14:28 Oh, wonderful.

Dr. Susan Black: 14:30 Aspen, Aspen Book. So it’s Joseph & Brigham: An Eternal Bond. And their relationship from day one is pretty interesting. I guess what I like about it is Joseph chastised Brigham on not just one occasion, but Brigham never overstepped his bounce. I mean, Joseph was always his prophet.

John Bytheway: 14:56 And how much older was Brigham than Joseph?

Dr. Susan Black: 14:59 Well, Brigham’s born on June, June 1 1801. And Joseph then in 1805 in December.

John Bytheway: 15:08 A few years older.

Hank Smith: 15:09 I’ve noticed here, Susan, that they might think, “Well, we can just use the river,” and the Lord saying, “We need a house.”

Dr. Susan Black: 15:19 Right. Well, some people would come and they would watch the Saints, and they found it very curious. And at one point down in St. Louis we can find a newspaper article saying that there are seven wonders of the world, but we’ve now seen the eighth, and it’s the baptismal font. They weren’t allowed to go in the clapboard house. And I think sometimes, well, it seems to me the Lord, when you’re doing something sacred, you don’t want people that can heckle mock and find it just a mere curiosity. Because I know when I’ve done the work in the temples for my loved ones. Wow, it’s so sacred to me.

Hank Smith: 16:05 Yeah. He says in verse 37, “How can these things be acceptable unto me, except you perform them in a house which you have built in my name?” He says, “This is the same reason I had Moses build a tabernacle,” in verse 38. “I want to give you these things.” John, you’ve brought this up over and over. “I want to reveal to my church,” he says in verse 41, “the things which have been kept hid before the foundation of the world.” He says, “I will show Joseph how to build this house. Let’s labor with your might,” he says in verse 44. And it sounds like they did. From everything you’ve told us, it sounds like they did labor with all their might to get this done.

Dr. Susan Black: 16:44 I think they did. I think they started out one day in 10, where you could choose which public work you worked on. But by 1845, and there had been, we always think of Joseph and Hyrum as the martyrs. But then you get another man being killed out. And remember, we talked about these little communities. And when Edmund Durfee was shot, Brigham said, “Everybody come in.” And so you have these 23 communities in Nauvoo, like spokes of a wagon wheel, they collapse. And they all come in to Nauvoo and then the same on the Iowa side. They all come in, and that’s where you get a real big population in Nauvoo. And that’s when Brigham says, “Work on the temple, we’re going West, get it done.”

Dr. Susan Black: 17:36 And you actually, because of the enemies, you have the great quote where Brigham’s saying, “He’s going to build the temple, even as the Jews of old, with a sword in one hand and a trowel in the other.” And they’re pretty much at 24 hours with little fires kind of buckets going on all four corners of the temple so people can see as they continue to build.

John Bytheway: 18:00 I think people probably know, Kirtland Temple restored certain things, Nauvoo Temple were going to get more things.

Dr. Susan Black: 18:09 So in the Kirtland Temple we know that there was washing and anointings for men, and this was on the night of dedication. And then you look at Nauvoo. Nauvoo is what you’d say, “The fullness begins to be revealed,” as you get Joseph Smith and the little Red Brick Store there on Water Street with giving endowment sealing to couples. And then that obviously carried over into the Nauvoo Temple.

Hank Smith: 18:39 Yeah, that’s mentioned in verse 39. Anointings and washings and baptisms.

John Bytheway: 18:44 Am I correct in thinking, this is the first section that mentions baptism for the dead?

Dr. Susan Black: 18:50 Right, you’ll eventually get other sections talking about there’s a need of recorder. “Somebody, write all this down, make sure we’ve got it.” And then you see our great organized system. I think one thing I liked, maybe it might be worth saying is that when the temple is finally opened December 10th, and it’s for endowments, you’d say, “Who’s in charge of the temple?” In other words, Brigham passes it on and he passes it on to the Seventies. So as they went to the temple, they’ve got these 35 Quorums of the Seventies and you’d say, “Quorum one had this day.” And they would take themselves and family members old enough to receive the endowment. And then once temple one had finished, next day, here’s Quorum Two. And once you get out to 35 you’re in February, and then that’s when Brigham says, “It’s time to go.” The first Temple Recorder was John D. Lee, a man of Mountain Meadows, infamous fame. And it’s interesting. He actually built the largest house in Nauvoo in memory of Joseph. It had 23 rooms. So there he was. So different phases of our lives, right?

Hank Smith: 20:13 Susan, what’s the rest of the section? So it seems like the first half is about the Nauvoo Temple and the Nauvoo House. Then we’re kind of going person by person here. Are we talking about mission calls?

Dr. Susan Black: 20:28 Once you get the person by person is you start with, you are to buy stock in the Nauvoo House, right? And you begin to name it, but then you get this kind of person by person. And the one you’d probably find the most interesting is Almon W. Babbitt. And Almon W. Babbitt, the Lord is not pleased with him. And the crazy thing is, Almon W. Babbitt asked Joseph, “Take that part about me out of the section.” And Joseph said no. But the part I think is so fascinating, Almon W. Babbitt, he’s an attorney in five different states. So you’d say, “Wow, he’s got a lot going for him.” And he’s was stake president in Kirtland. And so, he’s told in that section to be aware of the golden calf. Do you see it?

John Bytheway: 21:25 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black: 21:26 And-

John Bytheway: 21:26 Verse 84.

Dr. Susan Black: 21:28 84, but the part I think is so fascinating is on June 26th, 1844, Joseph and Hyrum are in Carthage Jail. And Uncle John Smith, their uncle that’s been a stake president in Zarahemla. He now goes to visit his nephews in the jail. And he asks, “What can I do to help?” And Joseph says, “Go tell Almon W. Babbitt,” who at the time was a branch president of a little community close to Carthage called Ramus. “And to go tell Babbitt that we want to hire him to defend us when we go to the court.” And so here goes Uncle John Smith, writing like crazy, over to this little town of Ramus. He finds Babbitt and he says to Babbitt, “I’ve just come from Carthage. Did you know Joseph and Hyrum are in jail?” And Babbitt says, “I do.” And uncle John goes, “Oh, good. Joseph needs you to defend him when his case will come up.”

Dr. Susan Black: 22:40 And Babbitt’s comment was, “Uncle John, you’re too late. I’ve already been hired by the other side.” And you’re like, “Oh.” Good thing it still appears in the Doctrine and Covenants. It says, “Beware of the golden calf.” So good message to all of us, make sure we’re turned to Christ, we’re facing the Lord. We’re in the center of the Church and don’t let that golden calf knock you out.

Hank Smith: 23:08 Oh wow.

John Bytheway: 23:11 Can you believe that? “I’m already employed by the other side. Tell him sorry about that.” There’s a nice little comment in the Come, Follow Me Manual about the different golden calves that we might be tempted to go after. Good thing to talk with your kids about, “What’s that golden calf and how can certain things or loyalties become a golden calf for us?”

Hank Smith: 23:36 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Black: 23:37 Right.

Hank Smith: 23:37 Anything that gets in the way, right?

Dr. Susan Black: 23:39 Right. Gets in the way. And then the rest of the section, it’s like the reading off of the names of the leadership from the Church all the way down to the leadership of the deacons. And it’s interesting, at that time you had four quorums of high priests, but we’ve only found one quorum of deacons. So by this, and there was not an age kind of thing where we think deacons [are] now 11-year-old and so forth, they were grown men.

Hank Smith: 24:12 Yeah, you have a lot of names in this section. I think of reading this with my kids. They’re going to say, “Who are all these people?” I’m going to say-

Dr. Susan Black: 24:21 Well, they all have fascinating stories, right?

Hank Smith: 24:23 Yeah. We’ll get Susan’s book, Who’s Who and the Doctrine and Covenants and see if we can go through and find out who all these people are, learn a little bit about them.

John Bytheway: 24:32 Do you know, that might be a good question to ask is, “What is the membership of the Church at about right now?” Are we at about 15,000, 16,000?

Dr. Susan Black: 24:41 Okay. Well, I actually came up with a pretty solid number, but we’re about 20,000. But what you’re looking at when you look at Nauvoo, Nauvoo is a Young Adult church, and there’s a reason they call Lucy Mack Smith, Mother Smith, she’s atypical. And Father Smith, he’s atypical. So you’re looking a fairly young church, and you’re about about 20,000. But some, there’s some accounts, there could be many more, because those are the ones we can name. But those we can’t name that are far flung that never made it to Nauvoo are difficult to find.

John Bytheway: 25:26 Such an interesting, I love hearing that. I remember as we talked about forming the first Quorum of the Twelve, that it might have looked like a Young Adult activity, except for a couple of them. And just that they’re doing this for the first, they’re young. I love that.

Dr. Susan Black: 25:43 And what I’ve found, and if you were to say statistics, there were more men in the Church than women. Where you couldn’t see that in a typical ward today, but-

John Bytheway: 25:55 Not today.

Dr. Susan Black: 25:55 But you got to, yeah, not today, but remember, Joseph and his followers are always pushing against the West and the man goes West first. And so you’d see that. You’d see in Joseph’s Church basically coming from the British Isles ancestry as you look at the group. Pretty homogenous, actually. Not a lot of ethnic in that original Church.

John Bytheway: 26:25 Yeah. Can you tell us what’s going on in Kirtland? I see something about in verse 83 about William. Weren’t there some that were trying to go back to Kirtland for business reasons or whatever, or trying to get others to go back to Kirtland?

Dr. Susan Black: 26:43 Right. Well, the same Almon W. Babbitt we talked about that very excited, the golden calf. He will be one that will head back to Kirtland and try and stop some of these Saints that were heading up to Nauvoo so they could build up another stake in Kirtland, Ohio. And for Kirtland, many of the people loved Kirtland and there was an advantage, and a lot of the old saints were still there, like Martin Harris. And the temple was finished, but the Lord and Joseph wants him to keep moving on, come to Nauvoo.

John Bytheway: 27:24 I think sometimes we talk about the Kirtland period and the Nauvoo period of church history. Is that a designation we use? And I’ve always thought, “Where do we fit Jackson County into there? Is it kind of in between? Or is it simultaneous?”

Dr. Susan Black: 27:43 So simultaneous. I think at one point we know everyone’s called to Kirtland. And then those that were called and elected to go went to Jackson County, and then by ’37 and going ’38 Kirtland clears out of the always faithful right. And then they joined them in far west. That’s where you go. And then finally you’ve got a real substantial group in far west that moves to Quincy and then up to Nauvoo.

Hank Smith: 28:13 I was looking at this section, Susan and I see the name William Law, and there’s such great blessings that could be coming to William Law, verse 97. It says, “If he may ask and receive blessings, let him be humble before me and be without guile. He’ll receive the spirit.” And that’s verse 97. It goes on to say all these wonderful things to William. And there’s something to be said of, these blessings are available, but William Law is one of those who turns on Joseph Smith and all of those blessings get kind of wiped away, at least for a time being. And I think something I’m going to bring up with my children is the idea of staying true through difficulty and being humble. “Let him be humble before me and without guile.”

Dr. Susan Black: 29:05 Great. I think you bring up a wonderful point. I think you look at, William Law is mentioned, John C. Bennett blessings. And then I think the ultimate is where Hyrum Smith, as he’s being told he’s going to be the patriarch, in essence, of the Church and that he will take the place of Oliver Cowdery. And then you think, “I don’t mind being released from callings and someone else go in. But I don’t want anyone to take my place in standing before the Lord.” And I think what we’re looking at is, people that had talents, they were on the scene, they were making a great difference, but they fail to keep their eyes single to the glory of God. And along the way found a reason to fall away. And then what happens is literally you wonder if their place, their blessings go to someone else. And you do see that in the case of Oliver Cowdery and Hyrum Smith and being told he’ll in essence stand next to Joseph.

John Bytheway: 30:15 Isn’t it true that Brigham Young was in a place that might have been occupied by John C. Bennett?

Dr. Susan Black: 30:21 I think maybe I could say something about the Nauvoo Temple. So, you realize that the saints will begin heading out in February. And I think it’s always interesting that the man that Brigham leaves behind is Orson Hyde. And by this point he’s dedicated Jerusalem for the return of the Jews, right? And his job is to finish the temple, not just the third floor, but all of it. And so, and it’s interesting when the saints go to Iowa and they’re told to get out of there in ’52, who does Brigham leave behind? It’s always Orson Hyde. But I think the part that’s interesting is that as the Saints left Nauvoo, there was some question in town, “Would they return?” And that was probably a good question, because several of the Saints as they went over to Iowa would find someone who had received their endowment. They would cross the river so they could get their endowment in the Nauvoo Temple and then quickly run back.

Dr. Susan Black: 31:28 And so in 1848 an arsonist then set fire to the inside of the temple and will weaken the walls. And then in 1850, there was what was called the great wind. And we might call it tornado, but great wind comes. And three of the walls of the temple because of the weakened inside of the temple will literally fall to the ground. And then you get, in 1865 you get the Nauvoo City Council is saying, “Boy, we got people going up there on Temple Square and worried about the one wall that’s still standing. Could people get hurt?” Well, the result will be is they will, people will come to the square, they will take any of the stones, and you can find Nauvoo’s Temple stones all over the town of Nauvoo. Go down alleyways or everywhere, foundations, wine cellars.

Dr. Susan Black: 32:35 And before long, you’d say, “Where the temple had once stood they extended Mulholland Street,” which is our main street in town. And so, you extend the block where the temple once stood, and by the time Wilford Wood is going to purchase much of that property, you got two apartment houses, you’ve got a match factory, a shoe factory, an meeting hall. And people had literally forgotten where the temple once stood. In other words, generations pass, and it’s just part of the business district.

Dr. Susan Black: 33:15 But the man I think that should be featured is Bryant S. Hinckley. He was a school teacher by trade, a principal. And he was called to be a mission president. And while a mission president, he went to Nauvoo, and he was curious, where did that temple stand? And he went to Carthage, the county seat, and did some research and found out where the temple stood and concluded he wanted to buy that block. But obviously his occupation indicated that he couldn’t possibly do it. But lucky for him he has a rich friend, and that’s perhaps a message to all of us. But his rich friend was this Wilford Wood that Woods Cross, Utah named for. He was a furrier by trade. And it was a time when women could wear mink coats and not get sprayed with paint. And it was the American dream, the big car, the mink coat, the house.

Dr. Susan Black: 34:19 And so he came back and then purchased that site in the 1930s. And the site was given to the Church, but with no plans to build a temple at that point. And it’s not until the 1950s you get J. LeRoy Kimball comes out to Nauvoo. And J. LeRoy was a famous doctor in the Salt Lake area and came. But what he really liked was reading the journals of Heber C. Kimball. He’s a direct relative. And he read of this beautiful house he built in memory of Joseph, and came back to Nauvoo, found some walls still standing, not much. And he goes, “My in essence great-grandfather would be embarrassed and I’m embarrassed. I’m going to rebuild it.”

Dr. Susan Black: 35:15 And then finally you get him inviting his cousin, Spencer W. Kimball to come back, and you have two great men talking about, “What could we do to restore Nauvoo?” And much of what you see is literally the brainchild of what they were able to accomplish. But it’s interesting. Spencer had the idea since they had the Nauvoo Temple site, that they build a tall elevator shaft and that it would show that the elevator shaft was higher than the water tower. And you’d have some kind of widow’s perch on the outside where you could cross the river and everybody could do [inaudible]. But obviously that didn’t happen. And I’m so grateful for President Hinkley saying, “We’re going to rebuild the temple.” And it’s just magnificent, and what a privilege for me to have served in it. How great is that?

John Bytheway: 36:10 Yeah, I think that, you might mention too. I think that when I saw it and only it was grass and some markers where the corners were, there was a Catholic school across the street to the west. And they were very gracious about it.

Dr. Susan Black: 36:27 Oh, the Catholic school, just amazing women that served there. I always thought you could eat food off any floor. I didn’t care what floor, they just, they kept their lands immaculate and if you go out to the Catholic cemetery in Nauvoo, you can just see cross after cross. At one point I counted 131 of these women that had cared for their property across from where the Nauvoo Temple once stood.

John Bytheway: 36:55 And there was a school there or something, and it’s been torn down.

Dr. Susan Black: 36:58 It was a school for … It’s since been torn down. So the Church eventually acquired it. We used to hold a Joseph Smith Academy. Kind of a semester abroad for students there. It’s since been torn down so that from the temple you just see this grassy knoll, and there’s some trees now planted, and then you can look out over the river.

John Bytheway: 37:21 Is Seventies Hall original, and the Browning Store? Which ones are original down there?

Dr. Susan Black: 37:28 Most of it is actually rebuilt, John. The most, the building that was in best order was the Wilford Woodruff house. And it’s because he wanted to have the biggest memory of Joseph Smith. So you got John D. Lee, his 23-room house spreads out, but Wilford stuffed his walls so that the walls inside were eight bricks thick. And he counted every brick and put the nicest ones in the front. But one of the ones that we like to visit is Joseph Smith’s Red Brick Store. That’s a rebuilt from ground up. And as we in 1980, we rebuilt the Whitmer Cabin there in Fayette, New York. And at the very same time the Reorganized Church, then called that, rebuilt the Red Brick Store. So, much of Nauvoo is a rebuilt as opposed to it still standing.

Hank Smith: 38:34 Yeah. And let’s get a bottle of cold root beer at that Red Brick Store.

Dr. Susan Black: 38:38 For sure. But if I were to say, let’s say you go to Nauvoo and someone pretty famous said, “Nauvoo is like a gigantic cake. Most of it’s frosting. So you could maybe, if you didn’t see the bakery, you’d probably be okay.” But the sites to see you want to, the temple. You want the temple for sure. And then any burial ground, and you couldn’t always count in Nauvoo that Joseph would speak on Sundays, but invariably he would show up at the burial grounds. And it’s interesting. They would bury on Thursday and Monday. And Thursday is a traditional day when Moses climbed Mount Sinai. And Monday is a traditional day when he came down with the tablets. And you see Joseph in Nauvoo becoming very Israelite in his thinking. And why you want to visit those cemeteries is because in the cemeteries he introduces much of what today we know of as temple work. Baptisms for the dead, families can be together. That kind of thing.

John Bytheway: 39:53 I noticed reading this section kind of, where was it, Hank, a restatement of the Abrahamic Covenant in verse 58. “And as I said unto Abraham concerning the kindreds of the earth, even so I say into my servant Joseph: In thee and in thy seed shall the kindred of the earth be blessed.” So yeah, there’s the evidence of that thinking of going way to the fathers. Was Robert D. Foster also somebody who turned against the prophet in verse 150?

Dr. Susan Black: 40:24 Robert D. Foster, he’s someone that owned the Mammoth Hotel, which is a 50-room hotel during Joseph’s lifetime. There were 11 hotels at the time and his was the largest. But Robert Foster was one of those that turned their heel against the prophet Joseph. I guess, my favorite story about him was after Joseph was martyred. Many of the Saints knew of his affiliation with conspirators and actually thought he had been in the mob that had killed Joseph Smith and they wanted him to leave town. And several of the men came to see him, but he refused to leave. But then there’s a great story of Mary Fielding Smith getting an entourage of women coming to see him and telling that if he didn’t get out of town right away, they would waste him. And suddenly you see him just packing up and he’s gone, never to return. Although, he was one of the big landowners, had money in town, had been successful.

Dr. Susan Black: 41:36 So, all these men, you just wonder, they were there on the scene at the time, but how many forfeited their blessings? And that’s never good. If you see me doing it, I helped bring in the Church a guy that was a bouncer in the bar and he’d wear wife beater shirts, even with the temple clothes. And I’ve said to him, “Hey, if you hear I’m messing up, find me.” And he’s indicated he will. And you guys join that team, right? That we got to help each other. The blessings are in the center.

John Bytheway: 42:13 Yeah, it’s a sobering section to go through so many names and to think what happened to these folks. And it’s inspiring, when you look at like verse 129, Heber C. Kimball, Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt and Wilford Wood are some of those that were faithful to the end as well.

Dr. Susan Black: 42:30 Just great.

Hank Smith: 42:31 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 42:31 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 42:32 Susan, to finish, I want to look at Section 124, of course. That’s our only section today, verse 125. So [Section] 124:125. And it says, “Joseph is a presiding elder over all my church, translator, a revelator, a seer and  prophet.” You’ve studied his life as much as anyone alive today. Joseph, his name is known for both good and evil all over the planet. And we all know what side we’re on when it comes to that argument. So I think our listeners would love to hear from someone who studied him so much, what you think of Joseph, the presiding elder, the translator, revelator, seer and prophet.

Dr. Susan Black: 43:16 Thanks so much for asking, Hank. I know that Joseph Smith was a translator. I mean, we have such evidence, just look at the Book of Mormon, right? Prophet, seer, revelator, all of the above. I’ve studied the life of Joseph, well, for, well, as old as you can possibly get, here I am. And I’m not bored in the process. I am very concerned of the day in which we live. In which people who have done sloppy scholarship are getting so much time on the internet and space. Truth has to edify, and what I’m seeing in their work. I’m not immune from that. There’s hardly a day I don’t get something that goes, “Really, how do you know that, lady?” I’m so grateful that I can turn to documents, pages. I mean, it’s just obvious that Joseph has being attacked. I’m grateful that I can stand on the side to still say that he is a prophet of God. And the blessings that that has brought to me and to my family and to my loved ones, I will be forever grateful.

Hank Smith: 44:39 Yeah. I think one day, Susan, you’re going to meet Joseph Smith and Emma Smith.

Dr. Susan Black: 44:43 Oh, I hope so.

Hank Smith: 44:44 And they are going to be grateful for you-

Dr. Susan Black: 44:45 I hope so.

Hank Smith: 44:46 … for your work. You have touched thousands, thousands of lives and holding up there-

Dr. Susan Black: 44:51 Look what you guys are doing. I’m a punk, you’re big players.

Hank Smith: 44:59 We feel so blessed to have had you with us a third time. This was just a treat for us.

Dr. Susan Black: 45:05 Oh, that’s a treat. Choose me again, it’s my favorite.

Hank Smith: 45:08 Yeah, we love having you with us.

Dr. Susan Black: 45:12 Tell everybody to go to Nauvoo. Don’t miss it.

Hank Smith: 45:15 We want thank Dr. Susan Easton Black for her time with us today. We want to thank all of you for listening. Thank you so much for being with us. We have an incredible production team and executive producers that we need to thank. Steven, Shannon Sorensen, and then our production crew with David Perry and Lisa Spice and Jamie Neilson and Will Stoughton. We want to thank you so much for your work and effort, our wonderful team. And we hope you’ll join us on our next episode of followHIM.