John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 00:07 So they’re taken by a guard and they arrive on December 1 and this is… Liberty Jail was built in 1833. It’s an interesting jail. You’ve been there. You’ve seen the replica. I think literally millions of Latter-day Saints have seen that. That Visitor Center has been around since 1963. It’s one of our oldest ones. And the Church has done a nice job there. It’s not entirely accurate, but it’s really, really good.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 00:41 So December 1, here they are, and on that day, Joseph Smith writes a letter to Emma, his second… Well, let’s see, this is actually… We have 12 letters that extend from this period of the Liberty Jail and also Richmond. And he writes Emma on that date and says, “We’re now in Liberty Jail.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 01:07 And he says, “I’m going to deliver this line by the hands of Captain Bogart, same guy that caused the problems in Ray County.” And Emma gets that letter and on the eighth and ninth, she’s down there visiting him. And she comes down to visit her husband. So it’s been a while. And I just wanted to make it very clear that the idea of incarceration back then was a little different than today and they were entitled to visitors.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 01:38 And really from December 1 till about the middle of February, Latter-day Saint leaders, members, children, they’re coming down and seeing Joseph and those incarcerated there. They have a lot of visitors. I’ve I got over 60 people and there’s more than that.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 01:56 And I’ve got more to do there who are coming. We know they’re allowed to spend the night there. Emma spends the night. They’re allowed visitors, and you probably know both John and Hank I found one little shred of evidence that Joseph Smith was also able to have his dog there for a time. Good Old Major.

Hank Smith: 02:24 That’s a big dog too, to have in that little room.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 02:26 Yeah. Big dog.

John Bytheway: 02:27 But I think a lot of people have that image of them down below, but they spent time both above and down in the dungeon part. Is that right?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 02:38 John, you’re spot on. In fact, if you want to say, most of their waking time was spent on the upper story where they would entertain guests, visitors, their attorneys, and so on. Now, at night, they put ’em down in the dungeon, we’d call it a dungeon, the lower level. It was a trap door. It would’ve had a ladder, not a rope. If you had a rope, if you weren’t strong enough, you’d never get out. So it was…

Dr. Alex Baugh: 03:09 And we know from the jail over in Richmond, that they had a ladder there because one of the Latter-day Saint men there indicated that there was a ladder. So at night they would be confined downstairs. And Joseph, that’s what he complains about. That he said, “We had no way to have a fire unless we could put it on the rock floor, but there’s no flue, there’s no chimney.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 03:37 Now, and I found it, there’s definitely evidence there was a stove upstairs. So it only makes sense if you build a building back then, you have to have a stove or some sort of heat component, and they did have one because I’ve got evidence that this county replaced the old stove. So it was [crosstalk 00:03:59]

John Bytheway: 03:58 Upstairs.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 03:59 Upstairs. But there’s nothing downstairs. It’s just cold. They’re on-

John Bytheway: 04:03 Cold, damp, dark.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 04:05 Yep.

John Bytheway: 04:06 And I think we’ve all heard the story about the fact the ceiling was so low that Joseph couldn’t fully stand up.

Hank Smith: 04:14 No, I don’t think that’s true.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 04:17 Well.

John Bytheway: 04:18 Is that true? That’s what I want to know. Joseph was what? 6 feet, 6’1″.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 04:23 Right in there. Let me just comment on that, John. Andrew Jensen went there with Joseph Smith Black and Edward Stevenson, who was an 18 year old. I think he was 18-years-old when the Missouri problems happened, but this was 1888. And he meets the old Deputy Sheriff James Ford, who they talk with and they really get a lot of information from him.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 04:53 But Andrew Jensen, as far as his measurements are concerned, the upstairs story was seven feet from the main floor to the ceiling and downstairs in the dungeon, it was six and a half feet. Now, the idea that they couldn’t stand up probably is because the Alexander McRae, according to the McRae family, was 6’6″. So they kind of say, well, he probably couldn’t even stand up.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 05:22 Well, none of them ever mentioned that they couldn’t stand up. So they might have elevated his height a little bit. But there was no question. The others were probably at least considerably below enough. So I think that’s one of the misconceptions, they couldn’t stand up, but again at night they’re down there sleeping anyway, but none of them ever mentioned that they couldn’t stand.

Hank Smith: 05:48 And we don’t have to make this… Alex, I’ve heard you say this before. We don’t need to make Liberty Jail harder than it actually was, because it was hard in reality. We don’t have to add anything to it because just in that dungeon, not knowing what’s happening to your family, you’re cold-

John Bytheway: 06:05 [crosstalk 00:06:05] the same.

Hank Smith: 06:05 … it’s dark. Yeah. You don’t know where.

John Bytheway: 06:08 And you said this was better than the Richmond one. Right.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 06:13 Yeah. The Richmond one-

John Bytheway: 06:14 That made me laugh. I thought, “Oh boy.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 06:16 They’re still trying to complete that one. That was pretty ventilated there.

John Bytheway: 06:22 But I remember the very thick stone wall was, it’s kind of no light. And what… Define night. Does that mean 9:30 or does that mean as soon as the sunsets, you all go down to the dungeon?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 06:33 Well, here’s some of the components of the jail and again, you’re familiar with this. It’s pretty impenetrable. It is 22 feet on the outside by 22 and a half. So almost 22 feet square, but they had four feet of walls all the way around. So you had a foot of timber and then a foot of rock, loose rock, and then you had two feet of mortared stone.

John Bytheway: 06:59 Yeah. So that if you were trying to dig through the loose rock would just fall down, there was no way to escape.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 07:04 Correct.

John Bytheway: 07:04 It was a clever way to make it escape proof, almost.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 07:09 They could do it. And they actually were able to use an auger and actually got through the timber. But they would’ve of course come into that rock situation, which would’ve made it a little bit more difficult to try to get through the… This was the March attempt, but… So thick walls.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 07:29 The point I’m making here is you take a 22 by 22-and-a-half-foot building and reduce it down four feet all the way around. That’s 14 feet by 14-and-a-half-feet. And my office at BYU is bigger than that. And I don’t know about you, John and Hank. I love you. I think you’re great young men-

John Bytheway: 07:51 But six guys down there at once. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 07:55 You need your space, and upstairs.

Hank Smith: 08:02 [crosstalk 00:08:02], right? [crosstalk 00:08:02] Joseph, get your dog out of here.

John Bytheway: 08:03 Yeah. Let’s bring the dog now. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 08:05 For a period of time, we have five additional prisoners up there for a week, and these are the ones that tried to help him escape. And they finally let him go after a week, but… Plus we have Hyrum mentioning that we even had a guy in there by the name of… [Howard Corwen 00:08:23], I think was one. And then he mentions another one who was not LDS, not Latter-day Saints. He was in there for a few days, so-

Hank Smith: 08:32 On other crimes, they’re probably [crosstalk 00:08:34]

Dr. Alex Baugh: 08:33 Yeah. On other crimes. Yeah. So psychologically, and you know this, there’s something about confinement that can just break your nerves and you just… And four walls, so confining, now they did leave. They were able to go outside and exercise. James Ford said, “I took them around the city. I’d walk ’em around, obviously under guard.” He said, “I gave ’em some good meals once in a while.” So, we know [crosstalk 00:09:08]

Hank Smith: 09:08 And they met with their attorney too, right? Isn’t there an attorney’s office right there?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 09:11 Yeah. In fact, Doniphan’s just down the road. His house is not even a block away. And William Wood, we know he mentions that Joseph came there to his office, which was about four blocks away and even loaned him a book, Robert Burns poems and he said he never got the book back. So Joseph, I don’t know if that was an error on his part. But the point is they’re confined, but they’re not as confined as maybe people think.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 09:41 I think most Latter-day Saints have this idea that they were in that dungeon 24/7. And there’s going to be a hearing late January, Sidney Rigdon. They were permitted to have a hearing for him and he was released. And so that hearing took place for a couple of days down in the courthouse, just a couple of blocks away. So they’re getting out, but they’re certainly confined.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 10:08 I mean, you just can’t get past that. That’s a terrible place to be. And John, as you mentioned, there’s very little lighting and the walls are so thick for light to even penetrate those small foot-and-a-half-by-18 inches on downstairs and two feet by a couple of feet. No wonder they said, “Our eyes hurt and you’d walk outside and you’ve been indoors with candle power or kerosene lamp.” So it’s rough. The-

Hank Smith: 10:44 I think at one point, Alex, Hyrum Smith says they felt like a zoo almost, people coming by to stare at ’em and look in the windows at them through the bars.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 10:52 Yeah. They were a spectacle. This was putting Liberty on the map, “Look who we got here.” So it’s terrible.

John Bytheway: 11:03 Let me just add, probably the strangest name for a jail ever, because it was in the town of Liberty to call it Liberty Jail is such an oxymoron. It’s like freedom prison or something. I’ve always thought as a kid, “Liberty Jail? Huh.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 11:21 John, that’s another good point. Actually the jail, we call it the Liberty Jail, but it was actually the Clay County jail.

Hank Smith: 11:29 Yeah. I don’t think there’s any doubt. And you can tell this by the letters, right, Alex? And by the sections themselves. These men were miserable. This was a miserable, horrific experience.

John Bytheway: 11:42 Sidney Rigdon really had a hard time, didn’t he? What was the thing he said about-

Dr. Alex Baugh: 11:49 He was sick. He was not doing well. I think he garnered a lot of sympathy from the authorities. In fact, when they held his hearing, he was able to obtain a writ of habeas corpus, and he went before the judge there. And as I understand, I remember right, they actually brought him in on a bed, and he pled his own cause and Doniphan later said he brought the audience and the judge, those there, the spectators, to tears.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 12:22 I mean, it was, as you understand legal maneuverings in that time period, it was almost theatrical. I mean, you really put on a show, but he defended himself and they did release him. Now, he waited about 10 days before, I think it was George Robinson, his son-in-law, came down and picked him up and took him away. So his time in the jail was a little bit shorter.

Hank Smith: 12:51 Alex, what brings on March 20th? Is there anything that prompts these revelations specifically, or it was just getting so long that Joseph was wondering if God was going to intervene.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 13:07 Fortunately ,I am just so grateful. I think we should all be so grateful that we have records of what happened in the jail, but more important than all, we have some letters that were very instructive from Joseph Smith. Now, again, some are very personal. We have those letters from Emma that are just heart wrenching and you really see the heart and soul of Joseph Smith. This is a good man.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 13:34 Any historian who reads those letters would go, “This man is devoted to his family. He’s absolutely committed to the Church. He’s optimistic.” Now, that changes a little bit. It doesn’t start out that way, but let me just highlight the fact that there’s 12 letters. Now, the letters that Sections 121 and 122 and 123 come from are two letters.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 14:00 Earlier, before the Joseph Smith Papers, we combined these two letters together, but now we’ve made them in the Joseph Smith Documents sections. We’ve made these the March 20th letter and then the circa March 22nd letter. So these are the two letters we actually get the text for the three revelations.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 14:25 Now, when Orson Pratt’s going through these letters and these materials at his disposal there in the historian’s office, he could have just put the entire letters there, they’re rather lengthy. So instead, of course, he just exercises excerpts that he thinks are the most important that would be relevant to a scriptural text, if I could say it that way. One that would stand as, “Oh yeah, this is good. This is instructive and it’s doctrinal.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 15:01 But I thought what he did was absolutely tremendous. He takes sections and excerpts that demonstrate to me, if you read the letter, Joseph is going along. And he likes to say he’s given some instructions and talking about things and what to do and so on. And then all of a sudden you hear a Joseph Smith, the prophet, versus Joseph Smith, the man. He is speaking in an elevated voice that you know it is under the influence of the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 15:33 There’s just no question. It’s so eloquent and powerful and spiritually moving. And then all of a sudden he drops back down to the voice of the man, the voice of Joseph Smith. And I just… He got it spot on. These are just empowering, meaningful, insightful, eloquent it just rips your heart out. It’s so beautiful and so powerful. And then, like I say, I think Pratt was so discerning and then he comes back to the Joseph Smith, more practical, especially 121 and 122.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 16:14 Orson Pratt was really good, and obviously inspired. There’s just no question. So of these 12 letters, the two that we get this from are the March 20th and the March 22nd letters. Now, by this time, he’s almost out of there. He’s going to be released from that jail, the prisoners. Now, again, Sidney’s not there anymore, but they will be released within just a couple of weeks to go to Gallatin for a hearing, and then they’re going to get the change of venue. And it’s during that transport down to Boone County that they’re going to be released.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 16:51 So he’s nearing an end. But the point I wanted to make is Joseph has a letter that he sends on December 16th and he is angry. He’s hurt. He is so sad because now he knows, “I am in this jail, as well as the others. I’m going to be here for a long time and I don’t like it. And this place is not a nice place to be and I don’t want to be here.” And he is angry. There is no question. He mentions individuals by name who cause the problems.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 17:25 But in the end, he softens and that’s what’s so powerful about… By March 20th, he’s not vindictive, he’s not… He mentions that people have forsaken him and the Church, but he’s not vindictive. And yet in the December letter he’s just hurt. He just can’t believe people could testify against him and be his friends and do this kind of thing that’s got him in this predicament.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 17:54 Because now he realizes, and I think if we can look back at that November 3rd, he believes he’s going to be out, but now he knows he is going to be in here for a long time. This is not going to be resolved overnight. But I see a change in Joseph from the December to the March when he realizes, “I don’t like this experience, but it’s been refining,” and he’s a different man. A different man.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 18:26 Anyway, I think we need to look at those passages and just, again, note their eloquence and their sublime power. My goodness. We need a Lloyd Newell to read those first seven verses, six verses.

John Bytheway: 18:51 No kidding.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 18:52 “O God, where art thou? Where is the pavilion that covereth thy hiding place?” Pavilion, I have to tell you, John and Hank, if you read this, you got to pull out a 1828 Websters Dictionary. What does he mean by pavilion? Well, we kind of got an idea but you look at what Webster said, a tent. Something’s just holding… I’m not quite penetrating the heavens.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 19:20 Joseph had marvelous revelations and yet in Liberty Jail, it’s been hard to connect, and it’s been so miserable. It’s been so disappointing and he’s suffered so long as the others. We have to give them their due understanding as well. And where are the Saints? I’m here. They’re not leaderless, but I’m their leader. How can I direct the Church if I’m sitting here in a 14-and-a-half-by-14 cell.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 19:55 Now, fortunately Brigham’s taken a good charge here and the Twelve have picked up the slack, but and he says, “How long?” And I think we’ve all felt this way. Is God really hearing my prayers? We’ve all had the feelings and experiences that we’ve pleaded for weeks or months and even years. Does God hear our prayer? Yes, He does. But it’s on His time, not ours in which they’re answered.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 20:25 And His is going to happen. He’s going to get out of this mess, but just hold on a little longer. I think this is giving him that hope. And then of course he’s worried about those who have been oppressed and who have lost loved ones and who have suffered in the exodus. Unfortunately, why do we always have to leave in winter? I just-

Hank Smith: 20:47 Yeah, it Just seems [crosstalk 00:20:50]

Dr. Alex Baugh: 20:50 My gosh, but [crosstalk 00:20:52]

Hank Smith: 20:52 It’s always snowing. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 20:53 And the reason is because we got to get there in the spring so we can get plants and crops and they got to get over there before… They’ve got to find some place. We’ve got, I’m estimating, between six and 8,000 Latter-day Saints who need to find a home. We’ve got displaced Latter-day Saints. What’s going to happen to them?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 21:12 So he is turning outward. He’s not… He’s going, “I’m in here, but they’re out there. Where do we go? What ‘s going to happen? We’ve got to move and we’ve got to move quickly.”

Hank Smith: 21:22 And we should probably mention Alex, the wonderful people of Quincy, Illinois. Without them, we don’t survive.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 21:32 Yep. Unbelievable people. Again, I think some of their motivations were definitely… Most of their motivations, I think were humanitarian. They’re going, “You guys need help.” I think some of it was political. We have a lot of Whigs over there and the Whigs are going well. Boggs was a Democrat. “Democrats drove you out. We’re glad to take you,” kind of thing. And of course, economically we doubled the size of Quincy pretty quick.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 22:02 And it helped businesses and so on. But I think their primary motivation was, and those of you you’ve been to Quincy and right there at Clat Adams Park is the monument to the citizens of Quincy for bringing us in. And my ancestor was baptized in Quincy because he housed with a Latter-day Saint family. He himself was just getting to Quincy. His name was Ezra Taft Benson.

John Bytheway: 22:32 Oh, wow.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 22:33 President Benson’s great grandfather, but-

John Bytheway: 22:37 I have a Quincy, I think it might be my only pioneer ancestry story, but my fifth great grandfather, Samuel Alexander Pagan Kelsey, who’s in Quincy, saw some sort of a bulletin that said the Mormons will be preaching. And the story we have is he said to my fifth great grandmother, “Those Mormons should be [inaudible] out of the country.” And she said, “Let’s go listen.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 23:05 Bingo.

John Bytheway: 23:06 And they did. I hope I got that right, grandpa and grandma. And they listened or were in doubt in the Nauvoo temple settled in Smithfield.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 23:17 I have those same fond feelings because again E.T. Benson attended some Mormon meetings, LDS meetings, and he heard Orson Hyde preach and John E. Page pray. And he said, John E. Page’s prayer was the most eloquent prayer he’d ever heard. So Quincy’s… And I kid with my students a little bit. I ask them to name all the headquarters of the Church and every time they miss Quincy. It’s the headquarters of the Church [crosstalk 00:23:47]

John Bytheway: 23:47 I think I would have until today. Yeah. Yeah. Quincy of course. Yeah. Right.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 23:54 So while he’s being harbored with his companions in the prison, he’s worried about the Latter-day Saints. They’re not leaderless, but they lack him. And so you see his supplication to the Lord for those who suffered as a result of their religious faith and the conditions they’re in.

Hank Smith: 24:15 Yeah. You can see that in verse three, “How long shall they suffer these wrongs?” Right? “And your heart be softened towards them and thy bowels be moved with compassion towards them.” So it’s not just me and us here. It’s our family.

John Bytheway: 24:34 I love the two questions. Verse one, he didn’t say, “God, are you real?” He knew God was real. It was just, “Where are you?” I think that’s significant. And also the how long in verse two and verse three, I’ve got in my footnote there. I mean, footnote 3A takes you to Alma 14. Alma and Amulek in prison, same question, how long do we have to stay here? So that’s a good footnote.

John Bytheway: 25:06 And another one I’ve noticed was the calling of the prophet Isaiah in Isaiah 6 or in 2 Nephi 16, where the Lord receives this call and tells him, “You’re going to have a rough mission,” I’m paraphrasing. And Isaiah says, “How long?” And the Lord gives a discouraging answer, “Until the cities are wasted without an inhabitant.

Hank Smith: 25:31 Everything’s gone.

John Bytheway: 25:33 Have a nice mission. but I like that that question has been asked before and that God is a Fourth Watch God to use the phrase that Michael Wilcox taught me about coming on the fourth watch, and we want Him on the first watch, but sometimes His timetable is different. So I just don’t know. I marked how long? It’s not… I know you’re going to help us, but when type of a thing.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 26:02 Yeah. John, that’s so insightful and interesting you’d bring up Isaiah and the ancients, because in another letter, Joseph says, “I think we’re having to go through this so that the ancients won’t have anything on us and say, ‘Well, you didn’t suffer like we did.'”

John Bytheway: 26:18 As long as we did.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 26:20 And boy, as we know those ancient prophets did not have glamorous days much of the time. Their opposition was intense. And Joseph, he says, “At least we hopefully can be equal to or they can’t say you didn’t suffer like we did.” He mentions that. So that’s a great point.

John Bytheway: 26:41 What an interesting… That’s interesting. He would mention it.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 26:46 But he still asked for a little bit of revenge factor there in verse 5, “Let thine anger be kindled against our enemies.” They’ve persecuted the saints of God and the prophets, and they need just retribution. And God will do that in His own time and in His own way, and for many people that’ll be the Final Judgment. “But vengeance is mine, I will repay,” saith the Lord. I mean, He has His own way of dealing with those who persecute the Saints and seem to have control over things at times.

John Bytheway: 27:25 Yeah. I mean, there’s answers like in verse 24, I mean, he goes on and on verse 24, “Mine eyes have seen. I know all their works. I haven’t reserved a swift judgment for them all.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 27:37 And verse 25, “For there’s a time appointed for every man, according as his work shall be.” Sometimes we just don’t like to see the wicked prosper or prevail. And yet in the end they won’t, there is no way. They will get their just reward, and for most of them, it’s not going to be pretty.

John Bytheway: 27:58 Alex, it’s interesting that he switches between versus 6 and 7 from his own voice to the voice of the Lord. Is that how it is in the letter?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 28:07 Yep. Absolutely. And so now he’s actually… I don’t know. Would we call it first person versus-

John Bytheway: 28:14 Right? Yeah. Yeah. The prayer is one through six. The answer starts in seven.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 28:22 Yeah. I probably didn’t get that exactly right, but you’re right. He’s reflecting on his own thoughts and then he hears the voice of the Lord come into his mind, “Here’s the answer to your inquiry and your query. Okay, you want to know? All right. I’ll tell you a few more things. First of all, have peace. You got a troubled heart, but have peace. And the gospel certainly does that.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 28:49 But then again, he says, “But a small moment.” Now, we can take that from a number of perspectives. I mean, if you were to suffer from day one to age 78, when you die every day of your life, that suffering is minimal in comparison with eternity. So I think we can look at it that way that Joseph, you’re only going to have 38 years and you’ve had some tough times, but that’s really a small moment in eternity.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 29:19 But I think he’s also telling him this thing might be just about over and it is. Within a month, he’s going to be home. He’s going to be in the arms of Emma. And then he does say that you will see again, your family and friends. Endure it well, that’s eternity or earth life. You have to endure it. You’re going to have a lot of opposition in life and life is tough.

Hank Smith: 29:46 And there’s a difference, Alex, between enduring and enduring well.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 29:52 I would have to say the right word is maybe words are optimistically and cheerfully and positively. Faithfully and remain faithful and things seem to work out, and this is going to work out. Now, he’s going to have additional trials in Nauvoo that are pretty painful.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 30:14 And I do have to say, I think some Latter-day Saints think that the Saints never were happy, every day was a bad day. It’s not true. Joseph’s got some good days ahead of him. He’s not persecuted every second. He has happy moments. But he’s promised exaltation. And then that’s when you triumph over all your foes, you may not be immortality, but the day will come when you’ll be an exalted coequal with my Son and Me, and they will be in a different circumstance and situation.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 30:55 So I think he’s very consoled by the fact that thy friends do stand by. His true friends are still there and they will remain your friends. Now, there were some who lopped off and yes, they were your friends at one time, but your Brigham Youngs, your Heber C. Kimballs, your Parley Pratt, they’re there with you and they’ll be yours again. I remember one time when Elder McConkie said, “The book of Job is for people who like Job.”

John Bytheway: 31:30 That’s right.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 31:30 But at the same time, Job went through H-E double hockey sticks. I mean, it was a pretty miserable thing. I know some biblical scholars who thinks that’s metaphorical or allegorical or something, but section 121 says he was a real person, and he suffered. Thou art not yet as Job. He lost his friends. Joseph, at least you have those who are ready to stick by you. I mean, most of the book is about Job’s friends, deserting him, and-

John Bytheway: 32:03 Everything was fine at first, his friends just sat with him. And as soon as they tried to explain what God was doing, everything goes south.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 32:14 Poor guy. I mean, he couldn’t have anything else and then we’d [crosstalk 00:32:19]

John Bytheway: 32:19 Well, you did this.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 32:19 … hoped his friends would hang in there.

John Bytheway: 32:22 And I’ve appreciated that he’s telling him, “Joseph, you still have friends,” and what a support that is. I remember somewhere, just a beautiful statement of Joseph Smith, about what it feels like to have a friend and the feelings it brought to his heart. I wonder if it is in this context. You know what I’m talking about?

Hank Smith: 32:43 I have this quote for you, John. “He said those who have not been enclosed in the walls of prison without cause or provocation can have but little idea how sweet the voice of a friend is. One, token of friendship from any source whatever, awakens and calls into action every sympathetic feeling. It brings up in an instant everything that has passed.”

Hank Smith: 33:08 “It seizes the present with the avidity of lightning. It grasps after the future with the fierceness of a tiger.” Wow. He says, “Friendship moves the mind backward and forward from one thing to another until finally all enmity, malice ,and hates and past differences, misunderstandings and mismanagements are slain victorious at the feet of hope.” Man, that is a beautiful statement.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 33:36 That is great.

John Bytheway: 33:37 That’s the one I was thinking of. And it sounds like it really came from this experience, because what was the first part, Hank? Those who have been enclosed.

Hank Smith: 33:45 Yeah. Incarcerated in a jail, they just can’t understand how incredible it is. He says they have little idea, how sweet the voice of a friend is.

John Bytheway: 33:55 Every time when Hank has come to visit me when I’m in the lockup, I’ve just appreciated it so much.

Hank Smith: 34:01 Hey Alex Baugh is that kind of friend, I’ll tell you.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 34:05 I think we can pick up again here on starting in verse 11, Lord tells Joseph Smith that those people who cause the problems will, again, we alluded to this, but they’ll get their just desserts. And I think we can safely say that Joseph knows exactly who he’s talking about or at least referencing.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 34:30 Of course again, those who charged me with transgression. You don’t want to accuse the prophets of things that they’re not guilty of and you don’t even want to accuse the prophets. In fact, what does he say here in verse 15 or actually 14, “That they may be disappointed also, and their hopes may be cut off; and not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, saith God, that no one of them is left to stand by the wall.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 35:02 And then even stronger, “Cursed are those that shall lift up the heel against mine anointed, saith the Lord, and cry they have sinned when they have not sinned before me, saith the Lord, but have done that which was meet in mine eyes, and which I commanded them. But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 35:26 Those are powerfully strong words, but again, Joseph is not perfect. He hasn’t been perfect and he knows that, but he does know that God is directing him and is leading and guiding those who are in authority. And maybe he didn’t make all the right decisions, but God has backed him up. It’s the same way today the brethren are backed up by the Lord.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 35:49 They are His anointed and he’ll do with them what He will, but it is not our place to dictate anything to them regarding their responsibilities. And I just don’t want anyone ever crying that Joseph Smith’s a bad person. He made mistakes, yes, but he was sanctioned by God. Wasn’t there the story of was it Marion G. Romney and Heber J. Grant and Heber J. Said, “Come here Marion and go with me,” and they talked about…

Dr. Alex Baugh: 36:23 And he said something about the fact that the prophets may not always do the very right thing in your mind, but he says, “If you’ll follow them, the Lord will bless you for it,” kind of thing. I didn’t say that very well, but yeah, “Do it anyway. God will back up the prophets. They’re His people, they’re His servants and you have no right to judge their motive or question their integrity concerning God’s calling to them.”

Hank Smith: 36:54 I think I have that story for you. You’ve got Marion G. Romney tells of this incident, which happened to him. I remember years ago when I was Bishop, I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. How’s that as Bishop, right? President of the Church.

Hank Smith: 37:07 After the meeting, I drove him home, standing by me, put his arm over my shoulder and said, “My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to anything and it is wrong and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.” Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, “But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 37:27 Yeah. Perfect.

Hank Smith: 37:27 Does that sound like it, Alex?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 37:28 That’s it. That’s it. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 37:30 I’ve heard you say this before. This isn’t a neener neener-type thing, but what happens to Jackson County in the Civil War is dramatic. From what I’ve read, it is one of the most decimated counties of the Civil War. And I think [crosstalk 00:37:51]

John Bytheway: 37:51 All you see standing is chimneys, right? Have you read that [crosstalk 00:37:54]

Dr. Alex Baugh: 37:54 Yeah. Chimneys and smoke?

John Bytheway: 37:55 Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 37:56 Yeah. It was a battleground of the Union and Confederate forces. Missouri was devastated. It was so divided by both Southern and Northern parties.

Hank Smith: 38:10 And the Lord’s language here in versus, basically, 11 through 20 something is there’s a time appointed according to every man as his work shall be. So I don’t want to say the Lord did that, but there can be… It’s almost a… Man, you can’t treat people this way and expect that life doesn’t turn around on you.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 38:37 Yeah. Well look at verse 23, “Woe unto all those that discomfort my people, and drive and murder, and testify against them, saith the Lord of Hosts, a generation of vipers.” And vipers is not a snake here. That’s a person who is mischievous or a malcontent shall not escape the damnation of hell. So again, it may seem like they’re escaping judgment but again, it will come up to them.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 39:01 But it also says, verse 19, “Woe unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of my house.” Now, it sounds like God’s going to sever them, but they really probably sever themselves. And then if you sever yourself, then since are no longer a member of the Church, that means probably your children won’t be, and that means probably their children won’t be. And so it’s a multi-generational of, I want to say it this way, punishment.

Hank Smith: 39:34 Yeah. Kind of the natural consequences. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 39:38 Yeah. I just wonder today, I may be sticking my head out on a limb here, but I wonder how many relatives or descendants of William E. McLellin are in the Church or there’s not many, if there is any. Maybe there are some, but the Whitmers, there’s only a few Whitmer family members that have come back. And so maybe again, the long term consequences for disobedience is multi-generational. There’s just no question.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 40:16 And so I think maybe the Lord’s, that’s how He’s saying their punishment will not only affect them, but those who follow them in terms of their posterity and that’s a sad thing. At the same time they didn’t cause that, I mean, obviously there’s wonderful people out there who may have descended from terrible Missouri people or even former Latter-day Saints that were not guilty of any of that, but the decisions and activities of people have long term consequences.

Hank Smith: 40:54 He does seem to switch away from the anger around verse 26. Am I reading this right?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 41:00 Yep.

Hank Smith: 41:00 “God shall give unto you knowledge by his Holy Spirit.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 41:04 Yeah. A great transition here. By the way that’s a new excerpt and starting verse 26, Orson Pratt got another one right here. Here’s a real gem. Here’s the… I think he’s trying to tell Joseph Smith there’s more revelations to come. And how do you get revelation? Through the Holy Ghost. And look what he says here. This is the dispensation of the fullness of times. Not only will we have things past revealed, but things never before revealed.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 41:36 And he alludes to this. Look at this. “A time in which nothing shall be withheld, whether there be one God or many gods, they shall be manifested.” I immediately go, “Hey, can you follow a discourse.” Oh, wow. Got that one to come. Look down here. He picks it up. Verse 29, “All thrones and shall be revealed and set forth. . . . “ Also “If there be bounds set to the heavens or to the seas or to the dry land, the sun, the moon, or stars—”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 42:05 And look at 31, “All the times of their revolutions, all the appointed days, months, and years.” You read the opening passages of chapters of the Book of Abraham. Now, Joseph worked on that a little bit in Kirtland, but it’s not till Nauvoo he’s going to get time to finalize that text. And what’s it talking about, chapter two or three of the universe and the worlds and Kolob and… Oh my gosh.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 42:40 The Lord’s saying, “Joseph, one of the reasons things are going to get better is we’re going to give you more revelation.” And think of how much revelation we’ve received since Joseph Smith. The Restoration is still unfolding. Everybody wants to say the Restoration took place through Prophet Joseph Smith. Well, yeah. It began there, but can you imagine what’s going to be in the future?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 43:03 I am so optimistic of this Church and what the Lord will do through the Holy Ghost, additional light and truth and knowledge and understanding of the gospel. To paraphrase The Carpenters, “We’ve only just begun.” [crosstalk 00:43:22] This kingdom is… Joseph said in 1834, was it? “You’ve only seen a handful of priesthood here tonight.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 43:34 People are worried about the kingdom. Well, we’re always worried about it, but the most glorious days I think are ahead and certainly in Joseph’s Day it’s gotten rough spots. We’ve got some rough spots to go through, but I think this is an optimistic look at the future of the Church. And there’s more revelation, more knowledge, more power, more understanding.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 44:03 I love this. How does he explain it in Joseph’s terms? “How long can rolling waters remain impure?” Verse 33, “What power shall stay the heavens? As well as man might stretch forth his puny arm.” What a word? “To stop the Missouri River in its decreed course, or to turn it up stream.” There is no way, shape or form that man could have put any kind of a dam on the Missouri River in 1838, and yet…

Dr. Alex Baugh: 44:33 I love the symbol analogy here, whatever. You think I can’t pour out revelation. I can do it in a jail. I can do it anyway, any place anytime, anywhere, and the truths are glorious. I just think that’s a wonderful, optimistic eloquence of the Lord trying to say there’s more to come. The movie isn’t over and the best is yet ahead.

John Bytheway: 45:02 I think President Nelson, is he the first to talk about this, guys, just a Continuous Restoration, a Continual Restoration. I was so glad he said that that it began with, like you said, with Joseph Smith, but it’s continuing and there’s more to come.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 45:22 Yeah. And again our Article of Faith, “We believe all that He has revealed, but He will yet reveal many great and important truths pertaining to the kingdom of God.” Well, in 34 now, he’s reflecting here about those who’ve gone by the wayside. And probably, again, it’s cited so many times in General Conference but in the context then of what we’ve talked about, I think we can understand it a little more fully, that he is saying that we’ve had a number of Latter-day Saint men, and we could, I guess include women, of course.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 46:04 They’ve made covenants, they’ve been with us, they’re ready to… They’ve made wonderful contributions. So they’ve been called, they’ve been terrific, but to really be chosen, you’ve got to maintain the covenant path. And if you’re not, what happens? Well, the priesthood you’ve had and the authority you’ve had may not have it anymore.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 46:33 David Whitmer wants to start a Church. Well, I guess he could go ahead. He never came back, but he started a Church. Did he prosper? Well, I don’t think so. Called? You bet. Chosen? Well for a time, but what happened to his authority? Well, amen to it. Now, again, he was formally excommunicated, so he lost that authority in that process, but there’s a lot of people or a lot of leaders that have just walked away from the church, never…

Dr. Alex Baugh: 47:03 Haven’t lost the priesthood per se, but certainly the authority is gone after a period of time and they have no ecclesiastical authority whatsoever nor do they have the power associated with that. So I think that he’s reflecting on the ones who were with him at one time and they had the authority and they had the power, but both amen to that now, the authority of priesthood of that man.

John Bytheway: 47:32 It’s an interesting use of the word, amen too. Because if we generally think amen is so be it, and I always tell my students, “Amen there means sayonara.” Yeah. It’s not, so be it to the priesthood or authority of that man. No, it’s gone. They don’t have it. Amen is kind of… What would you say? That’s the end of it, perhaps.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 47:57 Yeah. That’s perfect.

John Bytheway: 47:59 And I love the list there, cover our sins, gratify our pride, exercise compulsion or dominions, giving us this… You may have been conferred, you may have had somebody lay hands on your head, but when you… All these bullet points then sayonara to the priesthood, to the authority of that man. Am I saying that right?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 48:19 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 48:20 Except for the sayonara part.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 48:23 He says it’s Babylon that pulls him away. Their hearts are set upon the vain things of this world, whether it be authority, whether it be prestige, whether it be… Gosh, it’s just too cool not to go to Church anymore. I’d rather be Lake Powell all summer.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 48:43 It can have so many kind of dimensions in terms of they’re not doing evil, evil, but they’re just pulled away by the world so that, that becomes their God and their motives for happiness. I guess you might say when really the power comes from continual repentance, faith, exercising the fundamental principles of the gospel. And the Lord hates hypocrisy, oh my gosh.

Hank Smith: 49:14 He does.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 49:16 Hypocrites just don’t have the priesthood power. If you’re living a lifestyle of deep and dark and evil things, you will not have power in the priesthood. There is just no way. It is just so evident that all things are predicated upon righteousness and obedience. And if you want power, you’ve got to exercise that type of faith and obedience to receive the power that is associated with priesthood.

John Bytheway: 49:44 When I had that chances to teach New Testament, who did Jesus have the most? Who was he harder on? Sinners or hypocrites? I mean specifically, he was hardest on the hypocrites. The sinners, they wanted to be with him. They wanted to hang around and he was gentler with them, but boy, with the hypocrites, he really let ’em have it. That’s Matthew 24 and stuff.

Hank Smith: 50:16 When it says chosen, it might confuse someone. But it really is… If you are going to say it in our language, I think you’d say something like many sign up, but few show up, right? I mean, it’s the idea of-

John Bytheway: 50:28 Oh, that’s a good way to put it.

Hank Smith: 50:30 And why don’t they show up? Well, two reasons, one, they care about the things of this world more than the things of God, and they care more about what people think than anything else. And then he says, “You can’t learn just this one lesson that righteousness is the key. Obedience is the key to power.” I think you said that perfect, Alex. I mean, this is beautiful language.

Hank Smith: 50:58 I want to read something from President Uchtdorf who said, “There is a reason that almost every lesson on leadership at some point arrives at the 121st Section of the Doctrine and Covenants. In a few verses, the Lord provides a master course in leadership, “No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness and love unfeigned.”

Hank Smith: 51:25 He goes on, “The character traits and practices described in these verses are the foundation of godly patience and are inseparably connected to effective service. These attributes will give you strength and wisdom in magnifying your calling and preaching the gospel in fellowshipping and giving the most important service, which is indeed in loving service within the walls of your own home.” I mean, he’s just… And I think he’s exactly right. What did he call it? “A masterclass in leadership.”

Dr. Alex Baugh: 51:57 Yeah. And again, how often is that scripture quoted to us as priesthood brethren, that in our homes and certainly… Primarily in our homes, but also, of course, in our priesthood calling, it just has to be a ministry of love and kindness and compassion and humility because God can’t stamp a person who… And say, “I’ll back you up,” in that kind of a person who uses his authority incorrectly and for self-aggrandizement or for I’m-in-charge kind of thing. You just have to have that humility factor all the time.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 52:40 And I will say this, Hank and John, that I think this verse was also very directed to Joseph Smith. And the reason I say that is because Joseph could be pretty harsh at times. And I think the Lord’s just telling him here, “You could learn from this, Joseph.” Now, again, I’m, I’m being a little judgmental here, but I gave an example. I mean, I think it was Brigham Young’s daughter, was it Zina?

Dr. Alex Baugh: 53:12 Anyway, she talked about how one time, I think it was in Kirtland and again, if I don’t get the whole story right the idea’s there. But I think Joseph had Brigham stand up and just [crosstalk 00:53:26]

John Bytheway: 53:26 Went [crosstalk 00:53:27] him. Yeah.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 53:32 And I tell you, Brigham, nobody loved Joseph more than Brigham. I think he, after he was all done, Brigham goes… Do you know the story? He goes, “Joseph, what would you have me do?” And that just set Joseph. He’s going, “Oh man, I was too hard on him.” And he just wept. I mean, he said… He took that authority too far.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 53:56 Now, who has all the authority, it’s Joseph Smith. There’s no question. And I think Lord’s trying to tell him here, “Joseph, this applies to you as well, you have to be careful not to come down too hard or to be too dogmatic.” I’m just coming up with some thoughts here, but this was probably very introspective for Joseph.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 54:18 And what do you do if you have to reprove, hopefully, out of love and kindness, but you better do it and show an increased amount of love. And that Joseph did, that is he knew how to turn around and forgive. One of our faculty members years ago, Arnold Garr, talked about Joseph Smith, man of forgiveness. He could take Sylvester Smith who caused all sorts of problems on Zion’s Camp and he turns around, forgives him and puts him in the Quorum of Seventy.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 54:55 I mean, that would’ve been the last guy I would’ve put in there and yet he did. And so the point is, this applies to all of us, but I think even to Joseph Smith, there was a little bit of a tinge of counsel here that Joseph… This is certainly something you could work on as well. Now, I don’t mean to ever come in judgment of Prophet Joseph, but I think he learned something from this very verse that he’ll apply much better in the Nauvoo period.

Hank Smith: 55:30 Even as parents, we can exercise unrighteous dominion, can’t we? with our power and authority, as we suppose. We do this as teachers sometimes, we do this in our callings, this unrighteous dominion. And Joseph seems to say it’s a natural thing to do.

John Bytheway: 55:56 We learn by “sad experience.”

Hank Smith: 55:58 That it is the nature and disposition. Yeah. That as soon as people get a little bit of a pride in them, they immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion. And I think that would apply to Joseph and all of us too, Alex, wouldn’t you? I mean, it’s the same thing.

Dr. Alex Baugh: 56:12 Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. We’re all susceptible.