Speaker 1: 00:00:03 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:00:08 I know you so much here, we could take up hours. But give us your best shot on what happens between 111 and 112.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:00:17 Right. So it’s about a year and it’s a busy year for Joseph and the Saints. So they get back to Kirtland in September and they start making plans. It seems to be influenced by the trip and what they saw, and a large part of this is business ventures. So almost in part, the Lord has trusted them to be like, “Okay, I told you to solve this question of repaying debt. Now explore some options.” And that seems to be what they’re doing.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:00:47 Joseph, in partnership with Sidney Rigdon, and possibly Oliver Cowdery, it’s a little unclear in the sources, they start a store in Chester, Ohio, which is just a little bit south of Kirtland. Joseph also buys a significant amount of land in the Kirtland area, over 400 acres. And this is unprecedented for him. Others had bought land, had held land. This is really when we see him really investing in land.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:01:13 And some of this land was likely intended to be used for newly arrived Church members who are gathering to Kirtland. There’s a huge population boom across 1835 to 1837 in terms of members that are coming to Kirtland, gathering to Kirtland. But the land also likely served as security for the bank that Joseph Smith and the Saints would start in the fall of 1836.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:01:36 And I could literally talk for hours about the Kirtland Safety Society Bank, but I don’t think anyone would find that enjoyable. So I’ll try and just boil down some essentials.

Hank Smith: 00:01:46 I think I would actually love that, but I get what you’re saying here.

John Bytheway: 00:01:50 Like we’ve said Hank, I think … I don’t know. You could be the world’s expert on the Kirtland Safety Society that we have right here on our podcast. So, I want to know.

Hank Smith: 00:01:58 Yeah, let’s not … Yeah. Let’s take advantage of this. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:02:01 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:02:03 I mean, it’s a complicated institution, I’ll say that, and we sometimes do it with a lot of hindsight and see it as a failure. And this goes back to my earlier comments. Remember, 1836 is a prosperous time. It’s a time when they feel like they can be ambitious, they can try new things, and that things are prosperous, and the assumption they, like, I think all of us, assume that prosperity will continue. They’re not thinking the worst.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:02:31 They’re unfortunately thinking of the best, and that’s not what happens. Unfortunately, this ends up being a really bad time to start a bank. And that doesn’t play out well for Joseph or the Saints. But it’s not an act of desperation, it’s not a bad idea, it’s not reckless, even though it isn’t successful.

Hank Smith: 00:02:55 Okay. Well, I think this is good. This is really good, because if you’re going to be a critic of Joseph Smith today, the Kirtland Safety Society is going to come up. It’s an easy target.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:03:03 It absolutely is, and there’s a lot we don’t understand. So it does make sense, and other frontier communities the size of Kirtland did want, or were lobbying, for their own banks. Banks allowed illiquid assets, like land, which is something I can’t write John a check for land to say, “Hey, pay this debt I owe you,” although they sometimes did that. It’s not an easily transferable asset. So it provides …

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:03:32 A bank provides the money that the church and its members needed to buy land, to build homes, and especially to aid Church members in Missouri. These were all the areas that they needed funds for. Like you said, it’s not to have a lavish lifestyle. It’s not to go above and beyond. It’s to meet basic needs, the needs of the growing Church.

Hank Smith: 00:03:53 Yeah. And even today, I think most people know that if I go put my money in the bank, they don’t keep all that money there. They loan that out to other people. This creates some growth. It creates some economy.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:04:07 Right. So, a small caveat on that. We don’t have any evidence that it’s a deposit bank. But there is this sense.

Hank Smith: 00:04:13 Oh, okay. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:04:14 There is this sense of people buying stock in it, them being able to take out loans in the money of the Safety Society that would allow them to generate the economic growth that you’re talking about, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:04:26 Okay. Okay, that makes sense. All right.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:04:29 So it’s a pretty ambitious endeavor. It’s relatively short lived. It closes by August of 1837. The reasons it failed are many, they’re complex. I would say that no single factor really causes it to fail. It lacks a charter, there’s unclear financial backing, there’s external religious prejudice that weighs heavily on the society and its success. Many are skeptical of the bank’s credibility and the solvency.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:04:59 The founding documents don’t exactly make that clear. And so when you add religious prejudice to that, it just amplifies a not great situation. Externally, the bank also endures intense opposition from the press in Ohio and from anti-Mormons in Northeastern, Ohio. There’s runs on the bank by Grandison Newell and others who are actively trying to oppose the Saints, oppose Joseph.

Hank Smith: 00:05:25 Yeah. So I have a bunch of these bank notes. I’m going to go cash them in right now.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:05:29 Right, and when they have-

Hank Smith: 00:05:30 And not knowing full well they can’t do it.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:05:32 Right, or that it will drain what resources they have.

Hank Smith: 00:05:36 Okay.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:05:37 So yeah-

Hank Smith: 00:05:37 That’s terrible.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:05:38 … there is a lot of opposition. Internally, according to one of the few records we have, the stock ledger, only about 200 individuals invested in the bank. But the Latter-day Saint population in Kirtland was around 1,800. So we’re not seeing huge buy-in from the members. There’s a couple different reasons for that. Many are too poor to realistically invest. And some really find it to not be credible and aren’t willing to put their money in it.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:06:11 And this is of course a frustration to Joseph as he’s trying to get this up and running and there’s just not a lot of backing from the Saints. Ultimately, the bank fails because of the economic upheaval created by the nationwide financial panic that I referenced earlier called The Panic of 1837. And this panic results in banks across the nation failing, land values fall significantly, and a lot of creditors call in debts.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:06:35 Right? They need that money. And so it puts everyone in a very difficult position. The panic of 1837 causes an economic decline that really leads to years of economic depression in the United States. Well into the ’40s, the country is trying to climb out of the effects of this. There’s another panic in 1839 that’s also pretty devastating. And so this is really a time of financial panic and depression.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:07:05 And I think we have to understand essentially the setting for D&C 112 in light of that. There are very real financial difficulties that the Saints are facing.

Hank Smith: 00:07:17 So the Kirtland Safety Society wasn’t a desperation idea, wasn’t Joseph Smith trying to steal money. It was a good idea at the time if things hadn’t turned so terrible.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:07:26 Right. It does have some funding problems, some structural problems that I think might have hampered it even if there had been a lot of support. But ultimately, it doesn’t have that support, and it doesn’t have the stable economy that would lead to something like that. So much of the frontier banks are about trust, about trusting those who are in the leadership of the bank. And that either makes it succeed or makes it fail.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:07:58 In Nauvoo, the trust in Joseph Smith, the trust in the church-run institutions will allow Nauvoo to survive on very little resources. There’s not a lot of money in Nauvoo. Kirtland, it seems like the trust isn’t there to the same extent.

Hank Smith: 00:08:16 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Wow. This is so important. I mean, this is just crucial to our understandings, because it’s going to end up … Isn’t this going to lead to people losing their faith, Elizabeth, eventually and saying, “I’m … ” And Joseph’s going to have to leave Kirtland.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:08:33 Absolutely. Yeah. This is very much in connection with the decline of Kirtland. I think we do have to keep in mind that it’s the economic downturn that dramatically affects the Latter-day Saints in Kirtland. Often, when we discuss this period of Kirtland crisis in 1937, we overlook these financial realities and really omit the fact that their livelihoods, their homes, their ability to feed their families, that that’s what’s at stake.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:09:02 We focus on the eventual apostasy with no appreciation for the concerns and the gravity of their choices. And it’s just a very difficult time for everyone involved, Joseph included. And so we see this give and take. Joseph really lauds this financial growth and prosperity, and what ends up happening is financial devastation. You know? And so, as a member of the church, there are a lot of people that really feel let down by him, that he had misled them.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:09:40 And I think we don’t always take seriously-

Hank Smith: 00:09:42 Like you should have seen this coming?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:09:43 Yeah. I think there’s the expectation that he should have warned them. And that definitely plays into it. The bank, almost in my mind, serves as a catalyst for these doubts. Doubts about a prophet, right? About expectations of a prophet. Do you expect perfection? Do you expect omniscience? And I think some of the Saints at that time did. And so they’re really thrown. Joseph Young talks about the bank as a stumbling block for the Saints.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:10:15 It’s this point where they have to decide, do they believe Joseph is a prophet of God if he isn’t always successful? If he isn’t always going to lead them to prosperity? If sacrifice is going to be the result?

Hank Smith: 00:10:29 Yeah. If he can’t predict economic downturns, I mean, what … I think, John, we’ve talked about this before, so we don’t need to hit it again and again. But expectations can get us in trouble-

John Bytheway: 00:10:42 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:10:42 … of what we assume should happen.

John Bytheway: 00:10:45 What we thought Zion’s Camp was, what we thought … Yeah, all of that stuff we’ve talked about before. What we thought the treasure was in Salem.

Hank Smith: 00:10:55 Right. Yeah. Assumptions can get you in trouble, especially if they’re not based in truth, if they’re just grabbed out of thin air. Right? Oh, a prophet should be able to do this, and a prophet should never be able to do that. Where’d you get that? I just assumed, right? I just assumed that’s the case. And man, when your expectations aren’t met, that can rock you.

Hank Smith: 00:11:18 And Elizabeth, I would think, if you’re a critic of Joseph Smith in his day, or if you are looking for reasons to doubt, you just found a nice big one. Right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:11:27 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:11:28 When this bank goes down, you can say, “See, I told you so.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:11:33 Right, and that’s essentially what Warren Parrish does. He was a scribe for Joseph. He was very close to him. At one point in the journal in 1835, Joseph calls him, my beloved scribe. They seem to be quite close. And then I think motivations and expectations come into play, and you get Parrish writing in January of 1838, how Joseph is a fallen prophet who deceives by revelation.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:12:04 And really just completely separates from Joseph and is, I think, the most virulent apostate that comes out of the Kirtland period.

Hank Smith: 00:12:13 Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:12:14 Is who? William Parrish?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:12:16 Warren Parrish, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:12:17 Warren Parrish, I mean.

Hank Smith: 00:12:19 Warren Parrish. And then add on that, probably a word you’re getting from Missouri, right? That they’re suffering there.

John Bytheway: 00:12:25 That things are going hunky-dory in Missouri. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:12:28 Oh, man. I just think … And how old is Joseph Smith? 1836, what is he? He’s 31? Almost 31? Is that right? I mean, he’s … That’s a lot of weight for a 30-year-old to try to carry. Oh, I feel for him.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:12:46 Right, he’s got a lot on his shoulders.

Hank Smith: 00:12:49 Yeah. Do you feel that way when you’re reading through these records, like, “Oh, wow, this had to … “

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:12:53 ’37 is a hard year. It’s a very dark year, and it’s one that we don’t have a lot of sources for, and a lot of the sources are really, frankly, depressing. These are not good times, right? These are times when Joseph’s being questioned, when people are calling him a fallen prophet and have no faith in him. When the community in Kirtland is so divided and in such turmoil, we have these heart-rending letters that Mary Fielding writes to her sister Mercy, that talk about how divided the community is.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:13:25 And the emotional toll that this division is taking. Even in their Sunday worship services, there’s one that gets so contentious that they leave without the sacrament, and Mary’s just distraught. And you have to remember that she is a brand new convert, converted by Parley P. Pratt, who ends up being one of the people who are opposing Joseph. And so, as a convert, as a single woman, she comes to Kirtland thinking that she’s gathering with the Saints.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:13:52 Gathering to the stake of Zion, and then sees the very man who converted her opposing the prophet. And yet she has complete faith and stays there and backs Joseph and does all of the amazing things that she does. But I can’t imagine a more difficult, trying test for a brand new convert than to be put in such a divisive community.

Hank Smith: 00:14:21 Right. I think … Isn’t it … I think John Taylor was in a similar position.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:14:25 He is, yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:14:27 He called Parley Pratt and said, “Okay, get back in line.” If I remember right, it’s John Taylor who helps Parley Pratt get back on into his faith, right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:14:41 Taylor takes a lot of credit, but Marsh is really important. Thomas B. Marsh.

Hank Smith: 00:14:45 Thomas B. Marsh too?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:14:46 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:14:48 So, Elder Taylor recounted part of his dialogue with Parley Pratt. “I am surprised to hear you speak so, Brother Parley. Before you left Canada, you bore a strong testimony to Joseph Smith being a prophet of God and to the truth of the work he has inaugurated. And you said you knew these things by revelation and the gift of the holy ghost. You gave me a strict charge to the effect that though you or an angel from heaven was to declare anything else, I was not to believe it.

John Bytheway: 00:15:14 Now, Brother Parley, it is not man that I am following, but the Lord. The principles you taught me led me to Him, and now I have the same testimony that you then rejoiced in. If the work was true six months ago, it is true today. If Joseph was then a prophet, he is now a prophet.”

Hank Smith: 00:15:31 Wow. And Elizabeth, you mentioned Thomas B. Marsh. I would like to know more.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:15:37 All right. So let me backtrack just a little bit. So, the time between Sections 111 and 112, we’ve got a lot going on, right? And part of what 112 highlights is dissent. Dissent against Joseph speaking, against Joseph opposing his leadership, kind of sense of unrest and disunity. And we see this in the records as early as January, 1837. The elders are told to stop murmuring.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:16:07 Another thing that adds to this difficulty is that Joseph is actually absent from Kirtland for long periods in 1837. He takes a trip to Michigan in February. He goes into hiding in April and May. He takes another trip in August, and then he takes another trip in October and November to visit Far West. And so he’s gone an awful lot, and in that vacuum, we get the dissenters finding more and more of a voice, and more frustration with Joseph in his absence.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:16:39 And it’s in May when everything comes to a head. Several apostles had started speaking against Joseph Smith. And the president of the quorum, Thomas B. Marsh, and David Patton are in Missouri when they write a letter in early May to Parley P. Pratt partly rebuking him for apparently planning a mission to England on the side just for himself, and saying, “This needs to be done as a quorum. You don’t just get to go by yourself and do this.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:17:09 And they call a meeting to be held at the end of July. But in this letter, they also talk about having heard rumors in Missouri that apostles Luke Johnson, John F. Boynton, and Lyman Johnson are speaking against Joseph Smith actively. And they urge the Twelve to be unified and to restore peace. And it’s part and parcel of this that leads Thomas B. Marsh to say, “I’ve got to get to Kirtland.” And so he does come to Kirtland.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:17:35 But it’s in late May that we get Parley P. Pratt writing a scathing letter that’s addressed to Joseph accusing him of lying and speculation and leading the church astray in these temporal matters. What you have to understand is that Parley’s livelihood is at stake. He’s risking the loss of his land and the home that he had his family in. And Joseph tells him, “No, no, these investments will be fine.” And then that ends up not being the case and these debts get called in.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:18:07 And he blames Joseph directly for that reversal in fortune. “You said I would be okay. Why am I not okay?” And we see this very, I think visceral reaction, on the part of Parley P. Pratt that’s saying, “I’m questioning everything. Everything’s very difficult right now.” Right? And in late May, Warren Parrish, Lyman Johnson, or [inaudible], and Luke Johnson, actually prefer charges against Joseph, his father, and Sidney Rigdon to the Kirtland High Council.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:18:36 Now, these charges were usually grounds for a trial by the High Council. And the charges against Joseph include lying, misinterpretation, extortion, and speaking disrespectfully of his brethren. So you get this sense of, there’s financial matters at stake, there’s temporal matters at stake, there’s definitely miscommunication and feelings of exclusion.

Hank Smith: 00:19:02 People are on edge. People are stressed.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:19:05 Things are very much on edge, and it’s in early to mid June that Joseph falls very ill and isn’t able to attend worship services. And in that void, Parley P. Pratt, Warren Parrish and others, stand up, essentially take over the meeting and condemn Joseph over the pulpit in the temple. So a very direct, not only a questioning of his authority, but almost trying to usurp it.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:19:33 After this angry rant, Pratt takes off for Missouri, and it’s in his travels to Missouri that he meets Thomas B. Marsh, David Patton and William Smith coming from Missouri. And it’s there that Marsh is able to cool down Parley P. Pratt and say, “I think you need to come back with us. Come back with us,” and he does. He returns to Kirtland. And it’s through the course of that, very much through Marsh as a mediator that Parley P. Pratt softens his heart, realizes that he’s in the wrong.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:20:07 And I think his autobiography talks about going to Joseph in tears and asking for forgiveness.

Hank Smith: 00:20:14 Oh. Oh my goodness. This is just-

John Bytheway: 00:20:17 This is just high drama.

Hank Smith: 00:20:18 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:20:19 It is high drama. It’s a very dramatic time. Of course also, this same timeframe in early June, Joseph tells Heber C. Kimball that he’s had a revelation that Kimball should undertake a mission to England.

John Bytheway: 00:20:33 Oh, yeah. Great idea.

Hank Smith: 00:20:35 This sounds like the Lord.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:20:35 -that something else needs to be done.

John Bytheway: 00:20:36 This sounds like the Lord, doesn’t it? Yeah, the Lord’s like, “Yeah.”

Hank Smith: 00:20:40 Well, the work will continue. So, Elizabeth, I was going to say that maybe it’s almost an accusation of, you’re not trying to build the kingdom of God, you’re trying to build your own kingdom.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:20:50 Definitely. I think that’s a fair description, and it’s one that I think gets at a lot of the heart of the doubts and accusations about Joseph’s intentions. Where Saints are like, “Are you really out to help the kingdom? Or are you helping yourself here?” And there’s a lot of latent frustration with this idea of Joseph stepping into a more direct temporal role and telling them what they should be using their funds for, and how they should be using their lands.

Hank Smith: 00:21:21 That’s probably wise to have those separated, I would guess. You know?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:21:25 I mean, probably, but it Nauvoo it all comes together. I will say, it’s really hard to keep those things distinct when you’re doing what Joseph is doing. Right? When you’re trying to do these things, like build a city. You can’t just do the spiritual side of that, right? There has to be financial means, there has to be investment, there has to be direction.

John Bytheway: 00:21:48 Studying these sections has helped us see that. Things like, “Okay, let’s start the United Firm. Let’s start … ” I mean, it’s telling us here, there are business things we have to do as well.

Hank Smith: 00:22:00 Elizabeth, when you were talking about Parley P. Pratt, and those like him, I think once you … If you’re going to lose everything, there’s a lot of fear, right-

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:22:11 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:22:11 … that your family is going to be homeless. And so-

John Bytheway: 00:22:14 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:22:14 … I think fear can easily turn into anger.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:22:17 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:22:17 Is that what we’re seeing here?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:22:19 I definitely think so. I think a lot of people are afraid. Others feel like they’ve been slighted. That seems to be one of Warren Parrish’s key issues. He’s not part of the Twelve. He’s not even part of the quorums of the Seventy, right? And he’s like, “But I was your right-hand man. Why don’t I get acknowledgement? Why don’t I get status?” And in other cases, I think it’s very much expectations of a prophet. And when you put in these economic realities, it’s a really hard place.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:22:57 And I think there’s a tendency to view Joseph as right and the dissenters as wrong, and to not really credit the extent of what the dissenters are opposing, are afraid of. Vilate Kimball has this really great quote in one of her letters to Heber, who’s by then in England serving a mission, where she talks about how the Lord requires His people to be chastened. And that though she believes a lot of what the dissenters are saying, you’ve got to be able to endure that chastening.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:23:32 You’ve got to be able to find a place for that sacrifice that the Lord requires. It can’t always be prosperous, it can’t always be the money that I think Parrish and others were hoping to make out of these ventures, and that was their objective, not the kingdom.

Hank Smith: 00:23:49 Wow. These are such good … And they’re life lessons for us. There’s going to be times in our lives where being a member of the church is going to be hard. It’s not always going to be milk and honey.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:24:04 Right, and the Kirtland seems to learn that in very, I think, challenging ways. To overlay yet another issue that they’re dealing with in June, there’s a smallpox outbreak in June and July, and several children die as a result. And so you could be losing your children at this time.

Hank Smith: 00:24:28 I like what you’re saying here is, don’t come at these dissenters like enemies. They had very real issues and problems that they’re dealing with. And I think the Saints in Missouri are going to say, “Well, hey, come on down here.” Right? “Things aren’t great down here.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:24:46 Right. One of my favorite Mary Fielding quotes, she’s writing to Mercy again, and she essentially says, “I know you have a lot of trials. But right now, I think I’ve got more.”

John Bytheway: 00:24:58 Really? Oh, that’s great.

Hank Smith: 00:25:00 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:25:01 “Send me your list.”

Hank Smith: 00:25:02 The Saints in Missouri and the Saints in Kirtland are, yeah, competing back and forth. “No, it’s harder to be here.” So is that … So you said Thomas B. Marsh is going from Missouri, going to get back to Kirtland. He’s got to figure this out. Is that where this revelation then comes?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:25:18 Yeah. So he gets back at the beginning, or he arrives in Kirtland in early July. And they had intended to hold a core meeting of the Twelve at the end of July. And he comes to find out that Joseph in the First Presidency had, unbeknownst to him, set apart Heber C. Kimball and sent him on a mission to England. So there’s some sense that there’s some frustration on Marsh’s part there. He’d already corrected Parley P. Pratt and said, “This should be under my direction.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:25:52 He feels invested in authority over this. And so in the-

Hank Smith: 00:25:58 As the president of the Twelve, right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:26:00 Right. And so, I think we see that in these early verses where the Lord is like, “I know you might be a little frustrated. There’s been some challenges that you’ve had to navigate.” But at the same time, I think we have to remember that Marsh is a key mediator. He really proves central to helping so many of the Twelve Apostles that had issues with Joseph, that had these doubts that had led to dissent, and he’s working to resolve those.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:26:35 He’s very much trying to help them communicate better and to resolve the issues that he sees.

Hank Smith: 00:26:45 Elizabeth, this seems like another narrative we need to correct, is that is, “Thomas B. Marsh, oh, he left because of the milk,” right?

John Bytheway: 00:26:51 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:26:52 He and his wife, they left because of the milk.

John Bytheway: 00:26:54 The leavings of cream or whatever.

Hank Smith: 00:26:54 And that’s pretty much all we say about Thomas B. Marsh. You’re saying, no, he was instrumental here.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:27:00 So I think there is sometimes a tendency to read into his later decisions in Missouri to leave the church and to reflect that back on the Kirtland period. But yeah, he is very much acting in his capacity as president to direct the Twelve, to try and restore peace in the quorum, and there’s one letter that Mary Fielding writes, and it’s … We only have half of the letter. So it cuts off. You only get half of the words. But in the half that we have, she talks about how powerful of a speaker Marsh is.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:27:36 And how much he’s advocating for Joseph this time, and how she talks with him and he says, “You know what? I’ll be able to bring the brethren around. We’ll restore that unity. We’ll restore peace. Things will work out.” And he isn’t doubting Joseph at all, when so many of the Twelve are at this time. So yeah, I think that’s an important corrective to be aware of.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:28:01 That yeah, there’s difficulties later, and I think there’s a lot more context that we could bring to the cream story, that I don’t know if we want to get into now. But it’s a time of hardship there, and food is really scarce. And so it’s not actually the petty issue that we think it is.

Hank Smith: 00:28:20 Okay.

John Bytheway: 00:28:23 Wow. And I think, one of the things that I’ve loved about doing this podcast, Hank, is with others like Thomas B. Marsh, is this lesson of, don’t take good people at their worst moments and make that who they are.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:28:38 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:28:39 None of us want to be known by our worst moments, and here’s just another example of that. I’m really glad you brought this up, Elizabeth, that during the Kirtland period, Thomas B. Marsh was an advocate for Joseph Smith, kind of a peacemaker in the Twelve.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:28:52 Very much so, in this moment, yeah. I think it’s Vilate that writes a letter, how she talks about … So in September things get really bad, and this is when these three key apostles, Lyman Johnson, Luke Johnson and John F. Boynton are actually removed from the quorum for a time. They’re not excommunicated, but they’re almost in this probationary period with the threat of excommunication. And it’s according to Vilate, Marsh brings them, almost forcibly, to meet with Joseph and to say, “We need to work this out.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:29:29 “You have to work this out.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:31 Wow.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:29:32 And it’s as a result that they give public confessions and say, “Sorry, we were in the wrong,” and ask for forgiveness and are reinstated to the quorum.

Hank Smith: 00:29:41 Wow. Wow.

John Bytheway: 00:29:42 And that had to feel good for the membership to-

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:29:44 Right. I think it’s one of those moments of union again after all the divisiveness.

John Bytheway: 00:29:50 I just love verse one. I have heard thy prayers. I mean, it tells us, “Maybe here’s mine too,” you know?

Hank Smith: 00:29:57 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:29:58 Right, and I think it’s a later verse that directs him to pray for his brethren. That’s one that I’ve always liked, right, especially in various callings in the Church, and some are easier than others. Some require a lot more growth on our part. But praying for those that we’re serving with. Praying for unity, praying for guidance.

Hank Smith: 00:30:22 Yeah, because he … I like that. He does see himself as a leader of these Twelve, and it’s hurting him that some are falling away. So he feels like, “I’m going to go and do what I can to create unity in the group.” I love it.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:30:37 And then in verse four, I think we start seeing this theme of, “You weren’t part of Heber C. Kimball setting apart.” And then the subsequent Orson Hyde joining the mission. But this is still a role that is yours, right? You will spread the gospel to Gentiles and Jews. You will lead out in this work. And this piggybacks with both D&C 114 as well as [Section] 118 when the Twelve are directed to take a focused mission to England as a quorum.

John Bytheway: 00:31:11 Now, I love verse six. “I, the Lord, have a great work for thee to do.” I mean, that sounds like Moroni to Joseph Smith in the new Aaronic Priesthood theme. It begins, “I’m a beloved son of God and He has a work for me to do.” I love how affirming that is, that the Lord has something for you to do and he says it here to Thomas B. Marsh. That’s got to feel good. “I have a great work for thee to do.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:31:37 Absolutely, and then he follows it up in verse seven.

John Bytheway: 00:31:38 Maybe humbling too.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:31:39 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:31:40 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:31:41 Verse seven, “Thou art chosen.” Right? You’re chosen for this role.

Hank Smith: 00:31:45 And then that beautiful verse, which I think if you grow up in the Church, you know verse 10.

John Bytheway: 00:31:51 [crosstalk 00:31:51].

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:31:51 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:31:51 “Be though humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give the answers to thy prayers.” I mean, that’s-

John Bytheway: 00:31:58 It’s direction, and then it’s a couple of promises. It’s one of those, and our listeners probably know about scriptures.byu.edu, or citation index app. But I looked at these sections. What is the most repeated verse in General Conference? Well, guess which one came up there, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:32:17 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:32:19 Yeah, verse 10. Very often repeated because it’s such great counsel with a promise. I like that.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:32:25 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:32:25 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:32:26 And such a beautiful promise.

Hank Smith: 00:32:28 And I’m getting a sense in reading this, Elizabeth, for what kind of guide Thomas B. Marsh is. The Lord says, “I know your heart. You’ve been praying a lot for your brethren.” He says … It sounds like you like some more than others. Right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:32:42 Some are easier to work with than others.

Hank Smith: 00:32:44 Right. So try to love all of them in verse 11. I really like that.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:32:50 Right. And then we skip to verse 14 where it’s this, get the 12 in line and go to work. And 15, “Exalt not yourselves; rebel not against my servant Joseph.”

John Bytheway: 00:33:04 Yeah. This is important. “I am with him, and my hands shall be over him; and the keys which I have given unto him, and also to youword, shall not be taken from him till I come.” I was thinking as you were talking Elizabeth about, it’s interesting that the idea wasn’t that the Book of Mormon isn’t true. It was that Joseph’s a fallen prophet. And when I think about the Three Witnesses never denying that, well, they just …

John Bytheway: 00:33:30 This idea that it may be the prophet’s fault, it wasn’t their testimonies that the Book of Mormon were gone, which they never were, ever. But this idea of prophet fall, that’s interesting and I think really important for our day. Do we … Are we led by living prophets or not? I just think that’s becoming more important in our day. Yes, we are, and to have the Lord reaffirm this about Joseph, I think, is really helpful.

John Bytheway: 00:33:58 And I could say the same about our living prophets today.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:34:02 Well, and do we have a solid testimony in them as a prophet of God? Not someone who can easily be swayed, easily change course. And you do see this spectrum of reaction, especially in light of the bank, where it’s like, “Oh, these temporal matters aren’t going well.” Maybe he just doesn’t have it anymore. You know? And so you do. I just find it so interesting how we see people reacting. So, like John Johnson and his daughter, Emily, withdraw all of their money from the bank in May.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:34:36 And it’s essentially a vote of no confidence. “We don’t believe in you. We don’t believe in your bank anymore. We’re taking our money out and going.” To me, the most profound example that comes out of this banking situation is Wilford Woodruff who had paid $5, goes back in late May and says, “Can I have my $5 back?” He’s not speaking against Joseph, he’s not condemning the institution, he’s not condemning Joseph as a prophet.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:35:03 He’s just saying, “So, we’re seeing that didn’t work. Let’s start over.” And it doesn’t affect his testimony at all, seemingly. Brigham Young is able to make this distinction and say, “Yeah, maybe that was a failure. Maybe temporal stuff is tricky.” I still believe in him, I still have a testimony of him as a prophet.

Hank Smith: 00:35:25 It almost becomes a crucible for a lot of people.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:35:29 Yeah. Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:35:29 The whole thing is a test. Yeah. “I’m going to test you financially in every other way.”

Hank Smith: 00:35:34 I am really glad I was not there, just so everybody knows. It’s so easy to sit here when the Church is very prosperous and say, “Well, I don’t know what he was thinking. I’m just glad it wasn’t me. I’m glad I was not there,” because that’s … It’s one thing to sacrifice. It’s another to lose everything you’ve worked to build, right? That can be … I don’t know. That can create a lot of fear.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:36:01 And so this really is a time of reckoning for Kirtland. I mean, thousands do go to Missouri and follow Joseph there, but there’s a lot that just take a step back and pull away from the church. It is really encouraging when Lyman White goes back later in the ’40s. He rebaptizes a lot of former members and brings them back. And so, we often write off Kirtland after 1838, after Joseph was forced to leave. But there’s still both an LDS community there, as well as this community of those who had been apathetic.

John Bytheway: 00:36:40 Gosh, I’m reading verse 20 going, “This is important today.” Whosoever receiveth my word, receiveth me. Whosoever receiveth me, receiveth those … The First Presidency whom I have sent.” I mean, because I’m reading that hearing a New Testament sound to it. And then I see the First Presidency. And if you want to receive me, you receive the First Presidency.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:37:08 Right. It’s very much, I think-

John Bytheway: 00:37:11 The Lord’s endorsing him, yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:37:12 Yes, absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:37:15 I think that could … You could pull that verse out, John, and place it in today. It’s just as crucial that we recognize that.

John Bytheway: 00:37:22 Yes. Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:37:24 He talks about them being humble, the Twelve in the First Presidency in verse 22. “Inasmuch as they humble themselves before me, and embide in my word, and hearken to the voice of my Spirit.” And this is an interesting analogy. I don’t know if it’s an analogy he makes here, but he says, “Darkness is covering the earth, a gross darkness, over the minds of the people.” And that seems to be the case in our day too, right? Just this …

Hank Smith: 00:37:54 If you talk about the myths of darkness from Lehi’s dream just blinding us to the tree. There’s just a lot of it on the earth.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:38:01 Well, and keep in mind the darkness I talked about, right? You’ve got this specter of smallpox, you’ve got this economic devastation. That’s the nation. It’s in Kirtland, but it’s the experience of the nation at large. And so this is a really dark, difficult time.

Hank Smith: 00:38:18 Oh, dark days.

John Bytheway: 00:38:23 That verse that’s probably the most well known in Section 112 about be thou humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand. Elder Soares, this is in the Come, Follow Me manual on page 173. It says, “Elder Ulisses Soares described humble people in this way. ‘The humble are teachable, recognizing how dependent they are on God and desiring to be subject to His will. The humble are meek and have the ability to influence others to be the same.'”

John Bytheway: 00:38:53 And then one of the suggestions it makes is … in the manual, for your family, you could sing a song such as, Be Thou Humble. Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:39:02 So, in keeping with that, the mission to England we see verse 28, where it says, “Go ye into all the world and preach my gospel, and to every creature who has not received it.”

John Bytheway: 00:39:14 The Great Commission.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:39:15 Right. Baptize everyone you can. Spread the gospel to everyone you can. And then verse 30 gives us some kind of direction. You were mentioning earlier this question of, how much did Joseph have planned? How much did he know? And I think it’s very much in flux, right, like I talked about earlier. So it’s really unclear how much Joseph understands what these different quorums should be doing, what their responsibilities are. He’s figuring out just as they are.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:39:47 And roles are adapting, changing. The Lord is giving direction and instruction, right? And we see some of that in verse 30, where he says, “For unto you the Twelve, and those, the First Presidency, who are appointed with you to be your counselors and your leaders, is the power of this priesthood given, for the last days and for the last time and which is the dispensation of the fullness of times.” And so, I think that helps Marsh frame his thinking, right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:40:13 He is the president of the Quorum of the Twelve. This is his role, but he is also subject to the First Presidency and needs to follow their guidance.

Hank Smith: 00:40:23 Ah. Okay. And maybe he doesn’t quite understand that, like you and I would automatically.

John Bytheway: 00:40:27 Yeah. They’re still-

Hank Smith: 00:40:29 I don’t know.

John Bytheway: 00:40:29 They’re still sketching out their organizational chart and who’s got keys and who decides what? I mean, I love seeing this unfold. I mean, I remember a few weeks ago and it talks about, don’t suffer any unclean thing to come into this house. And I’d put my margin, “Oh, so they’re going to have to figure out, ‘How do we do that?’ Let’s call them temple recommends. We’ve never done it before. And how do we … ” Things we take for granted, they were still figuring it out.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:40:59 Absolutely, and that’s where I think we have to appreciate the change over time, that is the marker of studying history, right? That this all didn’t come forth fully fledged, right?

John Bytheway: 00:41:09 Yeah. Continuous Restoration.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:41:12 They’re learning, they’re growing. Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 00:41:13 Yeah. I love that idea, and as they’re figuring it out as they go, because that’s what we’re doing. At least I don’t know about you guys, but I’m taking it a day at a time trying to figure this out. Right? John, even our little podcast here. Right? I mean, we just got it started having really no idea what it was going to look like and just got it started and it started to sort itself out. So I know … I’m not comparing our podcast to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Hank Smith: 00:41:39 But I’m just saying we’ve had an experience where it’s like, “Wow, we didn’t know.” But we move forward and things fall into place and the Lord seems okay with it, that they don’t know what they’re doing sometimes.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:41:51 Right, right. He seems happy to let them figure it out.

Hank Smith: 00:41:54 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:41:54 Yes, because that’s how you learn. I mean, we’re learning to be moms and dads and we’re learning to be members of our wards. We’re learning to be … How do I be a good sister in the Relief Society? How do I be a good quorum member? We’re all … And I love the learning process of letting us make mistakes. I know Hank and I love to talk about the whole Brother of Jared thing. What will ye that I should do for you that you may have light?

John Bytheway: 00:42:21 The Lord’s like, “Go figure it out, Mahonri.”

Hank Smith: 00:42:23 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:42:24 Right, and I think that goes back to D&C 111, right? Where He’s like, “It’ll work out. I’m not going to tell you how. You’re not just going to get it. You’ve got to put an effort too.”

John Bytheway: 00:42:35 You’ve got to trust me and keep moving.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:42:37 Exactly.

Hank Smith: 00:42:39 Oh. And I just feel for Joseph through these sections, Elizabeth. You’ve just helped me go, “Oh, poor kid. He’s 30-years-old and he’s got problems in Missouri, problems in Kirtland. Then the nation’s economy falls apart and I’m just, ‘Oh,'” right? I think of … This is kind of silly, but I think of Frodo saying, “I wish the ring had never come to me.” Right? “I wish this had never happened.”

John Bytheway: 00:43:03 I know. Sometimes I like to tell my student, “Poor kid, all he did was say a prayer.” You know?

Hank Smith: 00:43:08 Yeah. And do you remember Gandalf’s response? He said, “So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that’s given us.” Right?

John Bytheway: 00:43:21 Beautiful.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:43:23 It’s mostly trial after trial. And so when we think, especially for me, about Liberty Jail, and when he’s thinking of the enormity of everything he’s dealt with, for me, Kirtland’s a factor there too. Like, yes, the immediate context in Missouri is difficult, but it’s building off of, these were very hard years for Joseph.

Hank Smith: 00:43:47 Yeah. And it can get exhausting, trial after trial after trial. I remember just this last year, my brother passed away in December from COVID. My very good friend passed away in January, and then my father passed away in March, and I kept thinking, “I could handle each of these one at a time here, but man, they’re just in succession, just boom, boom, boom. Just … Oh, I’m getting tired.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:12 Right, and I imagine Joseph who goes through way more difficult things going, “I’m … “Next year, next year, next year, just, “Oh, I’m tired. This is hard.” And the Lord has high expectations. He loves them and he has really high expectations.

John Bytheway: 00:44:29 Was it Elder Cook that, “I want you to know, we had a hard time.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:34 Yeah. That might be in the the history books, Elizabeth, for 2020, 2021. [crosstalk 00:44:41] got hard.

John Bytheway: 00:44:43 Then things got hard.

Hank Smith: 00:44:45 Then things got hard. What happened? Oh, I don’t even … It’d be like, “What does Mormon say?” “I don’t even want to trouble you with telling  you about it.

John Bytheway: 00:44:51 Yeah, [crosstalk 00:44:51].

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:44:52 Yeah, right. I’m not going to give you the list.

John Bytheway: 00:44:53 I think I’m going to skip this part.

Hank Smith: 00:45:01 Can we move to [Section] 113? We can just give it a quick look, Elizabeth.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:45:05 Sure. So-

Hank Smith: 00:45:06 Are you okay? Or do you have some more on [Section] 112 before we wrap up on 112?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:45:10 So, I would just say that dissent continues. So July seems like things are easing. In September, we have this confrontation, and then Joseph goes to Far West and is gone from Kirtland for a period of over a month. Comes back in early December to find that the dissenters have increased past any previous level of dissent, and that the Kirtland High Council has actually acted to excommunicate 28 dissenters.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:45:42 And in fact, John Smith in a letter to his son George Smith, who is outside of Kirtland teaching, says that they’ve excommunicated 40 to 50 people. And so you get this sense of loss, of just irreconcilable difference. And Warren Parrish and these excommunicated dissenters actually start a rival church in January of 1838. They call it The Church of Christ, and again following this theme of a fallen prophet, say, “We’re going back to the correct restoration,” right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:46:15 “Not this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints nonsense that Joseph has directed everyone. We’re going back to the true church, The Church of Christ, the original name of the Church.” And are very much almost a competing church. And so you really get the sense of division in the Kirtland community, where you literally have people taking sides. And it’s in this moment that we see dissenters threatening violence against the Saints.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:46:46 And it’s also within this context, not only are there these threats of violence, but Joseph receives a revelation in the fall of January that says, “You need to leave. You need to get to Missouri, and that all those Saints who are faithful should come with you. You need to leave Kirtland.”

Hank Smith: 00:47:03 Wow. So that’s January of ’38. “It’s time to go.” Oh. That is heartbreaking. So July, you felt like, “Hey, we’re getting some things reconciled. We’re going to be okay.” He goes to Missouri, comes back and it’s worse. Oh, man. And you got to move again.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:47:24 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:47:25 And I mean, this is … They’ve been there since … I remember the episodes, John, where we talked about, “Leave New York and go to the Ohio and I’m going to endow you with power.” So this has to be heartbreaking to leave this city where so much has happened.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:47:42 Right, they dedicated a temple. That’s huge. They’re leaving their temple behind.

Hank Smith: 00:47:50 I can’t imagine. And we’re always moving in winter. Right? We’re always moving in January. It’s like, oh, really, again?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:47:58 So, with the Twelve, the January revelation, they act on that immediately and leave that night, But their families don’t.

Hank Smith: 00:48:06 So, Elizabeth, so he hasn’t been back that long?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:48:10 No, no.

Hank Smith: 00:48:11 Right? I mean, he came-

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:48:12 It’s a matter of … So he comes back the 10th of December and-

Hank Smith: 00:48:16 A month later.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:48:16 … essentially a month later they’re leaving.

Hank Smith: 00:48:20 Wow.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:48:21 Right. We have families, like Bathsheba Bigler who will become Bathsheba Smith. She talks about arriving days before the Haun’s Mill Massacre from Kirtland, from Ohio.

Hank Smith: 00:48:36 We just got here. Oh. And this has got to be … Elizabeth, in your research, it’s got to be a heartbreaking time. These are good people who are leaving the Church and now are very angry. How do you see that playing out? Because I have a few friends who have been upset, decided that they’re going to leave the Church, and there’s a lot of anger there. And it seems similar.

Hank Smith: 00:49:10 So how do you see that playing out? What are you feeling from this?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:49:13 Yeah. So there’s definitely a lot of emotion at stake, and you see that especially in the letters that we have that are contemporary letters. So we have this small group of letters. Vilate Kimball’s writing to Heber, Mary’s still writing to Mercy. Hepzibah Richards, Brigham’s cousin is writing to various family members, and John Smith is writing to George Smith. So we have this group of letters that’s giving us some insight. And by and large, the women are heartbroken.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:49:40 They just see this as division and a loss of friends, and a loss of the community that they had enjoyed and really had felt such a connection to. Vilate tells Heber that she feels like the dissenters were justified in some things, but that they went essentially too far and that they needed to recognize the chastisement of the Lord and come back in line. And she gives her testimony of Joseph, even saying, “I think the dissenters are justified in some of their concerns.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:50:17 Mary just talks about the sense of dream division of a community that’s just rent apart. The same community that had celebrated the dedication of the Kirtland Temple just a year before is now to the point of being enemies and threatening violence on each other. And so it’s just really devastating. And then you see some of the leaders taking, I think, a somewhat problematic approach. John Smith, who is part of the Kirtland High Council that ended up excommunicating dissenters frames it this way for his son.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:50:51 He says, “The Church has taken a mighty pruning and will better for it.” And it’s a heavy-handed approach.

Hank Smith: 00:50:59 Wow.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:51:00 So we’re getting all sides in this.

Hank Smith: 00:51:04 Yeah. Wow. That’s very insightful. So good. Elizabeth, is there anything else we need to talk about with the Kirtland Apostasy? I think people … I think so many of our listeners are going to say, “Wow, I didn’t know that, and I think you framed it in such a good way. Yeah, just a beautiful way of, ‘Let’s be real here but let’s also … Let’s … Joseph is still chosen. The Lord is very clear. He is the guy.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:51:34 Yeah, I like to frame it in terms of not only validating the dissenters and saying like, “There’s really difficult stuff happening. There’s really high stakes.” Right?

Hank Smith: 00:51:44 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:51:44 Like the wellbeing of your family is a huge issue for these people. And even the expectations of a prophet, right? That’s the foundation of a testimony. But I’d also like to remind those listening that Joseph felt betrayed too. He was doing everything he could to follow the Lord. He was trying to build up a community. He was doing what the Lord had asked him to do. He was trying these different avenues.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:52:17 And instead, he’s met with friends decrying him as a fallen prophet and turning their backs on him and rejecting him. And I can’t imagine the toll that took.

Hank Smith: 00:52:31 Yeah. Human beings are complex.

John Bytheway: 00:52:36 Yeah. That’s a good way to put it.

Hank Smith: 00:52:37 Oh, that was so good. Yeah. Because it would be so easy just to blame Joseph. Just all this is on him, when really, that’s too much. You can’t put that on an individual, that they should be omniscient and know everything before. Right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:52:54 Okay. So Joseph waits for his family to rejoin him after he’s forced to flee Kirtland, and then they make the long trek to Far West, Missouri and arrive in mid-March. And the questions that form D&C 113 were likely written sometime between 16 and 29 March, that’s stating that we’ve been able to establish based on the scriptory book, the journal that they’re recorded in, as well as Joseph’s presence in Far West.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:53:31 And the most likely time is after a meeting of the High Council in Bishopric on 24 March, where Elias Higbee could have pulled Joseph aside and asked some questions that he had about Isaiah.

Hank Smith: 00:53:46 Wow. So interesting that right in the middle of all this comes a question about scripture.

John Bytheway: 00:53:52 You mean that in every, every part of Church History, people have questions about Isaiah?

Hank Smith: 00:53:59 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:54:01 It’s universal.

John Bytheway: 00:54:02 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:54:03 It’s universal. It could unite us, all of us-

John Bytheway: 00:54:05 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:54:07 … of questions of Isaiah. So they’ve just been doing some studying, like is this Elias Higbee … all these questions from Elias Higbee, or?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:54:16 So, only the second part. So the way that they’re recorded, the first three are from an unidentified individual. Maybe Joseph, maybe not, and are clearly an answer from the Lord, or framed in that divine language. And then the next questions, those about, I think Chapter 52, are those that were asked by Elias Higbee.

Hank Smith: 00:54:41 Okay.

John Bytheway: 00:54:42 Can you tell us a little about all Elias Higbee?

Hank Smith: 00:54:44 Do we know much about him?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:54:47 So, he’s a faithful member.

John Bytheway: 00:54:50 Yeah, he dies faithful. I just … Yeah. Wasn’t his son … Is it Francis Higbee that goes against-

Hank Smith: 00:54:57 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:54:57 Yes, in a very big way.

John Bytheway: 00:54:59 Joseph, and Elias is faithful.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:54:59 Both of his sons really oppose him, and it’s very much dividing the family.

John Bytheway: 00:55:06 That’s too bad.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:55:06 Yeah, but Francis Higbee is very much against Joseph in the 1844 context.

Hank Smith: 00:55:12 The Nauvoo period.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 00:55:13 Nauvoo period. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:55:15 Okay. But Elias Higbee here has some questions. I’d like this … Maybe I’m just being a little too … I don’t know, but I like that he’s being driven. There’s a lot of darkness. This is difficult. He’s still in the scriptures. They’re still trying to understand the scriptures.

John Bytheway: 00:55:31 Yeah. Hey, what does this mean? Hey, what does this mean?

Hank Smith: 00:55:32 Yeah. I like that. I think that’s very refreshing to me. We don’t need to go verse through verse through this because we’ll eventually get there as a podcast, hopefully, John, if we’re going to keep this going.

John Bytheway: 00:55:45 We’ll get to the Old Testament. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:55:45 Yeah, and some Book of Mormon. But there-

John Bytheway: 00:55:48 Can I mention something that-

Hank Smith: 00:55:50 Yeah, please, point … Yeah, John, you’re our Isaiah expert … resident Isaiah expert. Tell us about it.

John Bytheway: 00:55:55 Oh, yeah, that’d be me. Mm-hmm (affirmative). No, there’s something that … I love the question in verse nine. Well, actually, verse 7, 8, 9, and 10 are these questions about Isaiah 52. “Put on thy strength, O Zion.” What people had Isaiah referenced to? And the answer in verse 8, he had referenced to, “Those whom God should call in the last days, who should hold the power of priesthood to bring again Zion, and the redemption of Israel.”

John Bytheway: 00:56:25 To put on her strength is to put on the authority of the priesthood, which she Zion has a right to by lineage. And clothes and power and authority are often metaphors for each other, which is wonderful. And then loosening herself from the bands of her neck, it says in verse nine. What’s that? And at the end of verse 10, it says, “The bands of her neck are the curses of God upon her.”

John Bytheway: 00:56:51 And this is what I find fascinating, Hank, Elizabeth, is that this idea in Isaiah 52 is three different times in the book of Mormon. In 2 Nephi 8, in 3 Nephi 20, Jesus himself repeats it. And in Moroni 10, I mean, it’s almost the last verses of the Book of Mormon. Moroni 10:31, it ends with what? 34–and Moroni talks about it. So the first two verses of Isaiah 52 are the, “Awake, awake put on my strength, O Zion, put on the beautiful garments, O Jerusalem, the holy city.”

John Bytheway: 00:57:27 “Henceforth there shall no more come into thee the uncircumcised and the unclean.” And then verse two, “Shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down, O Jerusalem. Loose thyself from the bands of thy neck, O captive daughter of Zion.” Those are the first two verses of Isaiah 52. They’re the last two verses of 2 Nephi 8. And then in 3 Nephi 20, Jesus says, “Then shall be brought to pass that which is written: Awake, awake again. Put on my strength, O Zion; put on thy beautiful garments.”

John Bytheway: 00:57:54 “Shake thyself from the dust; arise, sit down, O Jerusalem.” And then Moroni, I love how he puts it at the end. And I’m going to read [Moroni 10] verse 30, because you have to hear the context. “Again I would exhort that you should come into Christ, lay hold upon every good gift, touch not the evil gift, nor the unclean thing. And awake and arise from the dust, O Jerusalem, ye, and put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion; and strengthen thy stakes and enlarge thy borders forever.”

John Bytheway: 00:58:22 Now this is going to date me, Hank, but I want to … Some of our listeners might remember President Kimball talking about the threefold mission of the Church. Does that ring a bell? To perfect the Saints–to proclaim the gospel, perfect the Saints and redeem the dead. You just heard Moroni say the same thing in Isaiah language. Strengthen thy stakes is perfect the Saints. Enlarge thy borders is proclaim the gospel. And put on thy beautiful garments is redeem the dead.

John Bytheway: 00:58:53 The things that we do in the temple through the power of the priesthood, right? So I get a little worked up about this because I love Isaiah and I find, “Whoa, that’s the threefold mission of the Church Moron is telling us in Moroni 10. Participate in the work of salvation.” And here now we’re hearing President Nelson talking about the Gathering. Participate in the work of salvation in the same way. So that’s my little two cents. Oh, but can I add one more thing?

Hank Smith: 00:59:24 I think you’re in charge here, so yeah, sure.

John Bytheway: 00:59:26 No, no, I’m not. “So the loose thyself from the bands of thy neck,” I mean, you know the Assyrians were the horrible cruel superpower in Isaiah’s day. And the invaders often took … conquered inhabitants of the land as slaves, sometimes putting bands around their necks, and symbolically, sin is like a bound around our neck. So, it says in [Doctrine and Covenants] 113, verse 10 there, “The bands of the neck are the curses of God upon her.”

John Bytheway: 00:59:57 But if you read these verses, if you go back in Isaiah 52, 2 Nephi 8, 3 Nephi 20, and see this phrase, “Shake thyself from the dust, arise, sit down” It sounds, make up your mind, arise, sit down. Which one is it? And I want to read, Paul Hoskisson was one of my Old Testament professors. You remember him, Hank?

Hank Smith: 01:00:22 I do. He’s actually my cousin.

John Bytheway: 01:00:24 What?

Hank Smith: 01:00:25 I do remember him, yes.

John Bytheway: 01:00:26 Okay, I’m going to quote cousin Paul for you here, Hank.

Hank Smith: 01:00:27 Yes, cousin Paul.

John Bytheway: 01:00:29 And in one of those round table discussions on the Book of Mormon, he said, “That the people of Israel should stand up out of the dust where they’ve been.” Dust is a sign of mourning, a sign of degradation. They ought to get out of the dust, out of their reason for mourning, they ought to arise, they ought to come in the house again because the Lord is going to accept them. They ought to take a bath, put on new clothes, sit down with the Lord, share a meal with Him once, once more as they did previously before they deserted Him.

John Bytheway: 01:00:57 So, the arise out of the dust, sit down in dignity, shake thyself from the dust, and all of these are beautiful metaphors for how we come to Christ that Isaiah was using, and interestingly, here it is, again, they wanted to know, what does that mean? Still relevant today. Threefold mission of the Church, which became fourfold, which became live, care, invite, unite are all in there.

Hank Smith: 01:01:24 Wow. Great job, John. As a teacher, John, I’m sure you’d say the same thing. I’ve come to love Isaiah. I’ve come to love Isaiah because finally I think I see what Nephi sees. Right? That if you really want to believe in Jesus, read Isaiah, right? The Bible dictionary says, “As one understands Isaiah better, they understand Jesus better.” Right? And I think here we’ve got a couple of good questions about that. Right?

Hank Smith: 01:01:54 And it’s almost as if the Savior’s going to say in this section, you’re doing it right now.” Right? “You’re gathering my people in these Last Days.” It’s fun that they’re figuring out the gathering as they’re in the middle of the gathering. That’s awesome. Here’s the Lord using Isaiah to re re-energize Joseph, give him confidence. Right? Because I wonder … I clearly don’t know as much about Joseph Smith as you do, but if it was me, it would make me question, “Am I doing the right things?

Hank Smith: 01:02:26 Am I on the right path? Am I still who I think I am?”

John Bytheway: 01:02:30 Oh man.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:02:30 Yeah, that’s-

John Bytheway: 01:02:32 Am I who Emma thinks I am?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:02:33 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:02:34 Yeah. Elizabeth, I think our listeners would love to hear from you on what you have learned about Joseph Smith and his contemporaries as you have spent your career now really in their lives, looking at their lives in-depth. As in-depth as anyone can go. What have you learned?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:02:56 I’ve gained a much greater appreciation for the weight of the mantle of prophet that Joseph held, and of the man behind it. I think we sometimes focus so much on everything he was trying to accomplish, everything that he did, right? Translating the Book of Mormon, restoring the Church. So many, just to use scriptural language, “great and marvelous things.” Right? And we don’t always get to see the man behind that. And some of my delights in searching through the papers are when you get to see the very human elements, right?

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:03:42 The man that is so excited to play in the snow with his children, who is burdened by leadership and by the struggles that he is facing that he doesn’t necessarily have solutions for debts. Debts he cannot pay that he wants to repay. That he is doing everything in his power to make a safe place for the Saints. A place where they won’t be persecuted. A place that they can prosper and create the Zion that has been his objective from the beginning to do the will of the Lord to continue the effort of restoration.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:04:28 And all of the persecution and all of the difficulties that plague him over the course of his life. Working on 1842 was again … It’s a really hard year for Joseph. John C. Bennett is merciless, and he’s filing for bankruptcy, which has connotations of failure. And it’s an ability to escape those debts, and it’s also the distinct generosity of character that I see in Joseph in saying, “I’m not going to let anyone else be burdened by these debts. I will take them on myself.”

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:05:09 “I will suffer for doing what the Lord asked us to do in Kirtland.” That is still directly affecting him in 1842. And so I think there’s just a greater appreciation for all that he is dedicating and all that he is doing for the Saints. His objective is for their benefit, is to establish Zion.

Hank Smith: 01:05:39 That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 01:05:41 Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 01:05:41 Absolutely beautiful. I just don’t know how to thank you. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:05:46 Yeah, you’ve really blessed me today. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 01:05:50 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:05:51 These sections mean a lot to me, and it just … I’ve worked on them for a very long time and it’s hard to see a narrative that won’t change when I know it’s wrong. Hopefully, I can petition this scripture heading committee and get [Section] 111 changed and get us on a better footing that doesn’t condemn Joseph for doing exactly what he was asked to do.

Hank Smith: 01:06:16 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 01:06:16 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:06:16 And Elizabeth, I don’t know if … I don’t know what the other side looks like, but I think Joseph and them are going to be there to shake your hand and say thank you for all that you did to defend us.

John Bytheway: 01:06:28 Yeah.

Dr. Elizabeth K…: 01:06:31 I don’t know about that, but I would like to meet them.

Hank Smith: 01:06:33 We want thank Dr. Elizabeth Kuehn for her time and her expertise. My goodness, we’ve been blessed today. We want to thank all of you for listening. We’re grateful for you. We want thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen. We love you. And our production crew. We have Lisa Spice, David Perry, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton, and Jamie Neilson. Thank you all for your work and effort and we hope every one of you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.