Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you, as together, we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of followHIM. I’m your host, Hank Smith. I am here with my meek cohost, John Bytheway. John, you are meek.

John Bytheway: 00:00:31 What every girl wants. “I hope my husband’s meek.” You know.

Hank Smith: 00:00:35 Hey, we want to remind everybody, you can find us on Instagram and Facebook. Go to folllowhim.co. Followhim.co. You might be tempted to put followhim.com. Don’t do that. Do followhim.co and you can get show notes, and quotes and things. And of course, we’d love for you to rate and review the podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:00:51 And it’s been a while since I did this, John, but I want to just give another shout out to our Marshall McDonald. He’s the one who wrote the song that we use as our intro. And I’ve mentioned it before, but I want to mention it again. Our friend Marshall, we love your music, Marshall McDonald.

Hank Smith: 00:01:08 John, we have a treat this week, and I know both of us are a little bit nervous because of how much we look up to our guest. So, go ahead and take it away. I’ll let you stumble over the intro, not me.

John Bytheway: 00:01:21 So glad to be joined by Dr. Robert L Millet again. And you heard his bio before, but I’ll refresh your memory. He earned bachelor’s and master’s degrees in psychology from BYU and his PhD in Biblical Studies and 19th and 20th Century Religious Thought from Florida State University.

John Bytheway: 00:01:39 And before joining the BYU faculty in 1983, Robert Millet worked with LDS Social Services as a marriage and family counselor, and with their Church Educational System, as a Seminary Instructor, Institute Director, and Teaching Support Consultant.

John Bytheway: 00:01:54 He’s the author and editor of more than 30 books and 80 articles. And this could be an old bio I found. So, it could be more right now. And book chapters dealing with doctrine and history of the church. I have behind me, the doctrinal commentary on the Book of Mormon. And a few books on Joseph Smith, The Choice Seer, Within Reach, When a Child Wanders, Alive in Christ, and a bunch of other books. Hank, how many did I miss?

Hank Smith: 00:02:25 Prolific. And if you would’ve told me, when I was a missionary, that I was going to be on a podcast with John Bytheway and Bob Millet, I would’ve said, “Why is John Bytheway there? I want to have Bob Millet to myself. I’m just kidding.

John Bytheway: 00:02:38 I will meekly agree with you right there.

Hank Smith: 00:02:41 Yeah. I was reading books from a Dr. Millet long before we became friends. And I sometimes can’t, I just have to pinch myself, that we are friends. That it really is true, that he knows my name. All right, I think we’ve gushed, haven’t we, John?

John Bytheway: 00:02:57 Have we gushed and flowed enough? Okay.

Hank Smith: 00:03:01 I don’t know. We haven’t done him justice, but welcome, Bob. Welcome back.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:03:05 Thank you. Good to be with you.

Hank Smith: 00:03:07 Yeah, we love having you here. Let’s jump right in to our lesson. This week’s lesson is on Doctrine Covenants sections 106, 107, and 108. It is the very end of 1834 and the very beginning of 1835. So Dr. Millet, back us up and what do we need to know coming into these two, three sections?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:03:38 Let’s just do enough history to get by and understand what’s going on. 106, the prophet in 1834, and Parley P Pratt are traveling to the east to find persons who can join science camp with them. And they stop at the home of Warren Cowdery in Freedom, New York.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:04:01 I didn’t know where Freedom was. I did a little research. It’s 90 miles Southwest of Palmyra. And if you want to know where it stands in the state, it’s about 340 miles from New York City. But a little town, Freedom, New York.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:04:19 Warren, of course, is the older brother of Oliver Cowdery. He had heard about his brother Oliver’s experiences, wasn’t quite sure what to think of the whole thing, except he was so moved by what he heard from Oliver that he wanted to have similar experiences himself. And so, he really was a good man. His wife, Patience, that’s a great name, and eight children. And so…

Hank Smith: 00:04:49 His wife, Patience, I like that.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:04:50 Patience.

Hank Smith: 00:04:52 And Parley’s wife is Thankful.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:04:54 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:04:55 And he lives in Freedom. This is a great combo here.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:04:59 He joins the church in 1834 and becomes a pretty important person in terms of influence. He’s involved, for example, he’s the scribe on the dedicatory prayer of the Kirtland Temple. He’s the scribe for the April 3rd, 1836 appearance of the Savior, Moses, Elias, and Elijah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:05:23 So he’s someone that really has had an influence in the church. Seemed to be deeply converted. Let’s just say that when Joseph and Parley came, they invited a number of people to home. And Joseph and Parley preached, and Joseph in particular. And a large number of people were baptized on that occasion.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:05:53 Warren, again, went through those wonderful in 1836, but unfortunately got caught up in 1838 in the same kinds of things, being critical of the leadership of the church, and thus left the church at about that time, which is sad. But tremendous contributions to the kingdom, good man.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:06:20 By the way, served as that. The section 106 is instructions to Joseph Smith to call Warren Cowdery to serve, basically, as the Branch President over Freedom, New York branch. Should we dive in?

Hank Smith: 00:06:34 Yes, please.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:06:36 Section 106, verse 1, of course is, “It’s my will that Warren should be appointed to serve as a presiding high priest.” Let’s mention that he really only served in that capacity a little over a year, but did a great job. Because he moved to Kirtland, was placed on the Kirtland high council. Then when many of the saints moved to Far West, he moved with them. He served on the high council in Far West as well.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:07:15 He used to preach the gospel, in verse 2, “Preach my everlasting gospel, lift up his voice and warn the people, not only in his own place, but in the adjoining counties,” right? “And devote his whole time to the high end holy calling, which I now give unto him, seeking diligently the kingdom of heaven,” and so forth.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:07:36 Where I think it gets interesting, I’ve said this before I think, and that is, it’s fascinating how in some of the revelations that we don’t generally think much about, or many people don’t even remember, there’s some pretty powerful doctrinal instructions contained in them. I’m thinking of James Covill and so forth. This is one of those. Look at verse 4, “And again, verily I say unto you, the coming of the Lord draweth nigh and it overtaketh the world as a thief in the night.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:08:14 I went back and I just read, drawing upon the same language that Paul used when he wrote to the Thessalonians, this is 1 Thessalonians 5, “Of the times and the seasons,” verse 1, “Brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.” We hear that used a lot. I’ve heard people talk about it in the Church many times.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:08:42 The Lord’s coming as a thief in the night. We’re not going to know in any way when he’s coming. And I want to talk about that. But verse 3, “For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh with upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.” I think the analogy used here is absolutely fabulous. Let’s consider a woman that is nine months and three weeks pregnant, and is just as ready to deliver as she can be. And just wishes the baby would come anytime now. She’s so uncomfortable.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:09:21 Well, let’s suppose she goes to church one day and someone walks up to her and says, “Hey, when you’re going to have that baby anyway?” What if she answered this way? “Oh, I don’t know. It could be a week. Might be a year, maybe five years for all I know. I’m not quite sure. I don’t know the time.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:09:40 No, she would never say that. She might say, “I don’t know the minute, but I can tell you one thing, it’s going to be soon. It’s got to be soon.” The analogy is really an important one, because if you ask her, “How do you know it’ll be so soon?” And she’ll say, “The signs in my body are telling me that it’s soon.” And so, I think it’s a fascinating illustration, analogy here. And as we’ll see, I want to go on and read the rest of this, because we generally, I think, misuse this passage of scripture. “Therefore, gird up your loins,” verse 5, “That you may be the children of light, And, that day shall not overtake you as a thief.”

Hank Smith: 00:10:26 We’re back in [Section] 106 now, right, Bob?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:10:28 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:10:29 Yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:10:30 Section 106. I’m sorry. Yeah, “Gird up your loins. Be the children of light,” that’s the same language Paul will use, “so that you won’t overtake you as a thief.” Here’s the key in verse 4, “Verily I say, the coming of the Lord draweth nigh, it overtaketh the world as a thief in the night.” It need not overtake the saints if they’re paying attention, either to the signs of the times, and more particularly if they’re paying attention to what the leadership of the Church are saying.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:11:05 I was thinking of something that you would have studied quite a while back. But if you’ll remember the 68th section of the Doctrine and Covenants given to, basically, I guess it was four elders of the Church, Orson Hyde and three other brethren.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:11:22 I’m looking at, I’ll read this in context, verse 9 [and 10] of section 68. “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved, and he that believeth not shall be damned. And he that believeth shall be blest with signs following, even as it is written. And unto you,” now these are men that will become members of the first Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “unto you it shall be given to know the signs of the times and the signs of the coming of the Son of Man.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:11:59 I think that’s saying we need to pay close attention to the Twelve and the First Presidency, to the apostles that guide the Church. We may not know the day or the hour, Elder McConkie used the expression, he used to say, but I think we’ll know the season. Knowing the exact time, Elder Ballard gave a BYU address some years ago. And he said, “I’m a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles. And I do not know when the Second Coming will be. I do not know of anybody in the Twelve or the First Presidency who knows when the Second Coming will be.” He said, “And I would modestly suggest that if we don’t know when it is, no one knows when it is.” And I think that’s a critical point, because it actually is in harmony with that verse.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:12:56 We need to pay attention to the Twelve, the First Presidency, and yes, search and read the signs of the times, and not let ourselves get caught up with all these silly groups that seem to have it down pat, “It’s next Thursday.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:13:11 And so that, from Section 106 to me, is fascinating.

Hank Smith: 00:13:18 Yeah, that is.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:13:20 A short section of the Doctrine and Covenants, and yet that little important detail contained there.

Hank Smith: 00:13:25 “Overtaketh the world as a thief in the night”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:13:29 The world.

Hank Smith: 00:13:29 You don’t have to be in that group.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:13:31 No. No, I think that’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:13:34 I’m so glad you brought this up. I actually had a note next to it, because I remember being at a CES Symposium and hearing somebody present this way. “Well, to the wicked, to the world, it’ll be like a thief in the night. But to the righteous, it’ll be like a woman in travail.”

John Bytheway: 00:13:48 And you pointed us to that. And it’s actually footnoted there, 1 Thessalonians 5. And so, we kind of have an idea. A woman in travail has an idea. And if we’re acquainted with… I love the footnote to Section 68, if we are acquainted, it won’t overtake us. Completely out of nowhere we’ll be able to say, “Oh, look, this looks like… Yeah, this was supposed to happen. Yeah, this was supposed to happen.”

John Bytheway: 00:14:13 I’m glad you brought that up, because it’s a merciful thing the Lord has done. “Oh, you’ll know. I’ll give you signs.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:14:20 Do you remember when, in 2 Nephi 25, when Nephi’s tried to explain, or provide some keys for understanding Isaiah? One of them is, you’ll know when it happens.

Hank Smith: 00:14:32 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:14:32 You will-

Hank Smith: 00:14:34 You live in the last days. It’s verse 8. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:14:37 I think it’s saying we ought to be acquainted with, not obsessed with, but acquainted with the signs of the times. And if we are, then there are certain things we’ll be saying, “Well, that certainly fulfills that sign of the time.” And I think we’ll be listening more carefully, I hope, to the First Presidency.

John Bytheway: 00:14:54 I just said this particular First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, these 15 men have no hesitation about saying that we’re trying to prepare ourselves now for the Second Coming of the Savior. Again, I don’t know when it is. It’s certainly closer than when I was a boy.

Hank Smith: 00:15:12 It was. I think that’s safe to say.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:15:20 Yeah, that’s right.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:15:21 And so I think this whole thing of the thief in the night is a fascinating idea. And that is, it doesn’t need to be as a thief in the night. We can be ready.

Hank Smith: 00:15:27 I want to read a little thought from Elder Holland, September 12th, 2004 at BYU. “The promised Second Coming of the Savior began with the First Vision of the prophet Joseph Smith in 1820.” Right? Keep your eyes on the Twelve. They’ll tell you when this is happening.

Hank Smith: 00:15:48 I was going to say earlier that even when you’re nine months pregnant, it still seems to surprise you a little bit. Right? I haven’t talked to my wife about this, but it didn’t seem to surprise me. ” Wait, what? Right now? I’m not ready for this.”

Hank Smith: 00:16:03 “Wait, what? Right now? I’m not ready for this.” I saw it coming. She would tell me, “Be ready. I got the bag packed. We got to be ready to go.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:10 You know how many times the Savior says in the Doctrine and Covenants, “I come quickly”? But quickly doesn’t really mean suddenly.

John Bytheway: 00:16:15 Yeah. Without warning.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:17 It’s not talking about time, it’s suddenly–without warning. That’s right. Except I think the saints, if they’re paying attention and are seeking to be in tune, will recognize warnings.

Hank Smith: 00:16:27 Yeah. I think I just wasn’t in tune as a husband. I think I was doing my own thing.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:16:33 My wife will tell you she remembers most being very pregnant, and we were living in Tallahassee, and I’m trying to finish a major paper for a class. She says, “I think it’s time,” and I said to her, “Yeah. Just give me a little while. I’ll be” … We managed to get her to the hospital, and the baby came in 45 minutes. That’s one of her sweet memories of me.

John Bytheway: 00:16:57 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:17:00 That’s funny. “Just give me a second, here.” How many of us are going to do that with the Lord when he’s … Yeah. “Just wait. Can you hold off for just a couple of days?”

Hank Smith: 00:17:08 I will say … I don’t know who said it. I’ve heard it attributed to C.S. Lewis, but I don’t think I’ve ever found the reference for it. But he says, “The Second Coming will not be a day of choosing, it will be a day you find out what you have chosen.” It’s not a day to now begin to choose, it’s a day you find out.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:17:28 That’s good. I like that.

Hank Smith: 00:17:29 Right?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:17:29 Should we go to Section 108?

Hank Smith: 00:17:31 Yeah. Let’s do it. Verse six he says, Bob, “Warren Cowdery separated himself from the crafts of men.” That’s got to be part of not being part of the world, right?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:17:42 Yeah. It is.

Hank Smith: 00:17:42 Separating yourself from the crafts of men.

John Bytheway: 00:17:46 I was thinking, this is kind of like a Double Stuff Oreo where you’ve got a 106 and a 108 that are pretty short sections, holding … I don’t know why I’m thinking of an Oreo right now, but …

Hank Smith: 00:17:58 I think that’s what the Lord wanted us to think of, John. He wanted us to think of Oreos right here.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:18:03 This is a revelation to Lyman Sherman. Brother Sherman born in 1804, so, what, one year older than the prophet Joseph Smith? Born in Vermont. He and his wife Delcena, D-E-L-C-E-N-A, they’re baptized in 1832, January, and other members of the family were also baptized.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:18:29 They moved to Kirtland in mid 1833, and there they meet the prophet Joseph Smith. Lyman was one of those that served successfully and faithfully as a member of Zion’s Camp. The stories told that, while the prophet Joseph Smith is in his home at Christmastime, it’s the day after Christmas, and Joseph is sitting around with some of the early elders in the church, and they’re studying Hebrew.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:18:54 A knock comes at the door, and it was 31- year-old Lyman Sherman who had been moved upon by the Spirit to go to see the prophet Joseph Smith regarding what the Lord would have him do. Section 108 is the response to that. He had been appropriately moved upon. He responded to it, and this revelation comes to him.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:19:27 It’s an interesting thing that takes place in his life. We know that, at the time the Quorum of the Twelve is organized, February 14, 1835, within two weeks, first Quorum of the Seventy is established. Lyman Sherman is called to be one of the seven presidents, which is quite an honor. As we know, Zion’s Camp proved to be the place where you find the leaders. Joseph knew who he could depend upon after Zion’s Camp, and many of those either went into the Twelve or the Seventy. Lyman Sherman was called in 1835 to that capacity.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:20:08 But, interestingly, by 1837, I don’t know whether Joseph Smith had realized that something wasn’t quite right. What the prophet seemed to have pondered upon is that Lyman Sherman had been ordained a high priest, I guess back in 1831 when the first high priests were ordained, and then he said … I think the line he used is something like, “It’s really not in harmony,” or, “It’s not in tune with what the Lord wants to do,” or, even stronger, “Contrary to the order of heaven for a man who is a high priest to serve as one of the Presidents of Seventy,” and so he was released from that appointment.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:20:55 With that in mind, some of these verses will make a little more sense. It’s a very tender revelation in the sense that the Lord is very attentive to the feelings of this good man.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:21:09 Should we look at some of the verses?

Hank Smith: 00:21:12 Let’s do it.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:21:14 Okay. Verse one. “Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I’ve appointed.” He’s followed the prompting.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:21:31 “Therefore, let your soul be at rest concerning your spiritual standing, and resist no more my voice. And arise up and be careful henceforth in observing vows, which you have made and do make, and you shall be blessed with exceeding great blessings. Wait patiently until the solemn assembly shall be called of my servants, then you shall be remembered with the first of mine elders, and received right by ordination with the rest of mine elders whom I have chosen.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:01 I think the solemn assembly being referenced there is what goes on at the time of Kirtland Temple dedication. He was acknowledged then as a member of the Presidency of the Seventy, and received great recognition.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:13 “This is the promise of the Father unto you if you continue faithful. It shall be fulfilled upon you in that day that you shall have right to preach my gospel wheresoever I shall send you, from henceforth from that time.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:27 This is one of those verses I went through maybe ten years ago and picked out, just, favorite verses in the scriptures. I wanted a batch to memory. This was one of those. Verse seven. I love this. “Therefore, strengthen your brethren,” and sisters, “in all your conversation, in all your prayers, in all your exhortations, and in all your doings.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:22:51 I love that idea, that what we say, what we speak ought to be a strengthening influence to people. That’s the exact opposite of someone who is gossiping or who is telling tales. Strengthen, whether it’s in your conversations, or whether it’s in your prayers, or whether it’s in what you’re teaching. Frankly, in all your doing, strengthen people by what you have to say.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:23:16 “And behold, and lo, I’m with you to bless you and deliver you forever.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:23:20 Maybe one or two more things about Lyman. Throughout the Kirtland Apostasy, he and his family stayed faithful through it all. Wilford Woodruff mentioned that Lyman Sherman was actually the first member of the Church to speak in tongues, and he did it in a particular meeting, not an unusual meeting, but a regular type meeting in the Kirtland Temple. That’s a nice thing to be recognized. His brother-in-law, by the way, was Benjamin F. Johnson, who became a very dear friend of the prophet Joseph Smith. They remain faithful. As I indicated, he’s released from the seventy in 1837.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:24:12 Anyway, just a good man. Stays faithful. Dies in 1839, the age of34. In fact, part of the reason he died is that he went to Liberty Jail to visit Joseph and the brethren in jail. While there, caught a cold, and soon thereafter died.

Hank Smith: 00:24:34 He had to die.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:24:39 It’s a great story.

Hank Smith: 00:24:42 Lyman Sherman.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:24:43 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:24:43 One of the definitely lesser known, but someone we should know about and understand.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:24:53 How often is it the case … I think I mentioned this the last time I was with you, and that is, often it’s what you could call, I suppose, the second-level saints that seem to make such a difference. When you think about the beginnings of the Restoration, the Knights, the Whitmers, you start naming them off, these really important people that came into the Church at just the right time, and they served in ways that blessed the Church. We don’t know them like we know Joseph, and Brigham, or Parley or Orson Pratt.

Hank Smith: 00:25:29 The Whitney’s. Yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:25:31 Or the Whitney’s. Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:25:33 The Whitney’s. The Partridges, right? The … Yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:25:34 That’s exactly right. People that were instrumental in great things happening through their simple service.

Hank Smith: 00:25:48 It’s wonderful how the Lord acknowledges him here. I think that’s the same promise for all of us, right, Bob? Is those of us who are second-level saints who maybe aren’t in the headlines, the Lord acknowledges our work.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:26:00 What’s the Lord going to say to Oliver Granger back in [Section] 117? “His name shall be had in honorable remembrance from generation to generation.” I had somebody who was not a member of the Church, and quite critical, says, “I have never heard of him, and I bet most of your saints haven’t.” I said, “Look. He made the Doctrine and Covenants. I didn’t.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:26:22 There’s a simple man that wasn’t well known, basically blind, who went forward, became a helper to the First Presidency, straightening things back out in Kirtland. The Lord said some some pretty remarkable things about him.

John Bytheway: 00:26:39 His headstone is just the north side of that Kirtland Temple, there. It’s fun to go there and to read that excerpt from 117.

Hank Smith: 00:26:49 John, what were you going to say?

John Bytheway: 00:26:51 Just, there’s a couple of things I love about this. Verse two, how many of us … Just that question. “Let your soul be at rest concerning your spiritual standing.” Just, that question that we all sometimes have. “Am I doing okay? How am I doing?” How many sections of the Doctrine and Covenants … Nice and convenient to go over to the prophet, “Can you tell me, how am I doing?” A lot of people got that in these early days of the Church, I think, and …

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:27:20 When I was bishop the first time, I had a sister come in to see me. Wonderful lady, really. Her family was just a great family. She came in for a temple recommend. We had a good visit. She obviously was worthy. She made a comment. She said, “I wish my husband receive greater recognition. He doesn’t ever seem to be called to major church positions.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:27:44 We began to talk about her husband. This was one noble soul. This is a man you could depend on. This is someone who was always there when he was needed. He was someone, you knew if you gave the assignment to him, it would get done and it would get done well. I don’t know if he ever served in leadership in the Church, but that just doesn’t matter a great deal. The issue is, how faithful were you in your personal life? What kind of a family person were you?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:28:13 Yeah. Worrying about your spiritual standing. I guess there’s another way of looking at that, too, John. I think wonderful, faithful Latter-day Saints who worry they aren’t going to make the Celestial Kingdom, that to me is sad. I’ve met a lot of saints that somehow suppose they’re going to end up in the Terrestrial Kingdom. I try to explain to them, “Look. Are you worthy to go to the temple?” “Yes.” “But you plan to go to the Terrestrial Kingdom?” “I don’t plan to, it’s probably where I’ll end up.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:28:52 I think that Satan does work on us sometimes in supposing we just don’t have what it takes, when, in fact, most of the saints are living the gospel in a way that they’re going to make it. While I think we need to attend to our duties and be faithful and true to what we’re called upon to do, I don’t think the Lord wants us to worry about our standing in the Church. To say, even, if you have the Holy Ghost and if the Holy Ghost is dwelling with you, as Brigham Young would say, “You’re living in a saved condition.”

John Bytheway: 00:29:31 I love the … Our friend, Stephen Robinson, that … He just had a really nice way of putting it. He looked at Section 25, which we normally think of, “That’s Emma Smith and the hymns,” but, early in Section 25, “If joined the church, you’re in my kingdom.” What Stephen Robinson said, “The question really isn’t, am I going to make it? The question is, do I want to stay?” That’s in his book, Following Christ. I thought, “What a beautiful way to put it.” You’re in the kingdom. Do you want to stay?

John Bytheway: 00:30:03 I like what you said, Bob. Just stop worrying about it so much. What have you quoted? Is it C.S. Lewis in a less worried way?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:30:12 Yeah. You move forward, you work at it, but you do so in a less worried way. I think that’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 00:30:21 I tell my students frequently, Bob, that the Lord is mighty to save. He’s good at this.

John Bytheway: 00:30:29 He’s so good at this.

Hank Smith: 00:30:29 Yeah. He doesn’t say, “Just, I don’t know if I can do it. I’m trying, but saving someone like you is really hard.” No, he seems to be very confident in himself.

John Bytheway: 00:30:38 Really good at it. He’s got this title that actually was … It was with a capital S, Savior. He’s so good at it that He’s the only one.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:30:50 Yeah. I think we can rely on Him.

John Bytheway: 00:30:52 I remember sitting next to an Evangelical Minister on a plane, had just a fascinating conversation. He asked, “If you never go to the temple again, can you be saved?” I said, “The temple is not the Savior. Me going on a mission is not the Savior. Me trying to keep commandments is not the Savior. Jesus is the Savior.” I do those things because I think He wants me to, but he’s the Savior, and he’s mighty to save. That was an interesting conversation.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:31:24 I spoke to a group just a few weeks ago, and they asked me to speak on the idea of who’s going to make it, or … It’s an older group. This is a group of people, probably in their mid-to-late sixties. I talked about the importance of the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:31:41 I think we’ve all seen Paul’s writings on this, where he says the Holy Ghost is basically the earnest of our inheritance, meaning it’s God’s earnest money on us. Meaning, when the spirit is with me, it means God is serious about saving me. Just like when I pay that money down is my earnest money, I’m-

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:32:03 When I pay that money down as my earnest money, I’m serious about buying that home. Well, when I have the Spirit with me, it’s God’s way of whispering softly to me, “You’re on course. You’re on course.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:32:13 The other would be a temple recommend that you use. Why? Well, because the temple is God’s counterpart to paradise. If you qualify to go into the temple and serve in the temple, you qualify to go to paradise when you die. I remember getting a phone call from a sister when I was bishop, who she and her husband had served five or six missions. I don’t know whether it was five or six, but… And in the word, they were just amazing people. So, service-oriented, so loving, so kind.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:32:48 Well, he passed away and she stayed in mortalities for about another year. She called me one day, and we knew that she was not far from death. And she said, “Bishop, I’ve got to get my temporary recommend. It’s going to expire, and I don’t want to face God with an expired temple recommend.” I said, “Oh, okay.” So, I said, “I’ll get the stake president. We’ll come over to your house.” And so, stake president sitting over here, I’m here, and she’s right over there. And I asked the questions, and she of course gave all the right answers. And I said, “Well, do you have any questions or any concerns?” She said, “Yeah, I have a concern.” She said… Here’s this sweet, pure soul, about as celestial as anybody I’ve ever known, who then said, “I’m really worried that I haven’t done enough.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:33:47 And I don’t know what happened exactly, but feeling came over me and I looked over to the stake president, and he was teary- eyed, and I think it came over him too. And I said, “President, should I?” He said, ” Tell her.” And I don’t know if I was authorized to do this, but I said, “My dear sister,” I said, “your salvation is secure. You’ve done everything the Lord’s asked you to do forever. You’ve just been the model citizen in the kingdom of God. The least of your worries ought to be whether you’re going to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Some of us may worry if we can do as well as you have.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:34:33 But I just think that those are sad situations. And of course, Satan would work on us to cause us to worry about our spiritual standing. When in fact, there are a lot of things we’re asked and called upon to do in the Church, to be sure. Things can get complicated sometimes. But if occasionally, we’ll back off and say, “Well, at least a couple of things I know. I hold a current temple recommend. I’m worthy to do that. And you know what? I feel the Holy Ghost working in my life.” And if that’s the case, it’s like God’s token. Or as someone said, it’s like God’s engagement ring. Meaning I intend to make you a part of an important wedding in days to come. And so, I think I love that line, spiritual standing. Don’t worry about it.

Hank Smith: 00:35:23 Love that, Bob. I love it. And before we go on to 107, I just have to… Let’s talk about verse seven, because how can we… I know both of you do this. I’m not as good as both of you, but strengthening people in the way you talk. Bob, you’re a celebrity that makes others feel like a celebrity. John, you’re the same way. You’re just someone who is strengthening people by the way you talk. Yet in the world around us today, it seems to be a culture of outrage and tear people down.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:35:57 I’ll say this, John, and then you need to give the good stuff. My dad was not an educated man by the world’s standards, but boy, did he know people. And he had a high school education and was successful in his business. But the greatest thing about him was his personality, his way. I will never forget coming home from a mission, sitting in on a gospel essentials class that Dad was teaching. And Dad asked the question to these young members, “And now, who was it that restored the Aaronic priesthood?” And a hand went up and Dad said, “Yes.” And the man said, ” Moroni.” And I thought, “Oh, this is interesting.” And Dad said, “Moroni. I love Moroni. Moroni is one of my favorite people.” He talked about Moroni for about five minutes and then said, “Oh, thank you for mentioning. Now actually, Moroni wasn’t the one that brought the priesthood, but who was it?” Someone said, “John the Baptist.” “Good. But thank you for mentioning Moroni.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:37:08 I remember thinking that’s a good example of… Dad hadn’t gone to a class on how to be a good teacher or an effective teacher. He just knew people. And I watched him as he do what with people, loved being with people, and made them feel better when they went home. And so, I think one thing is to just… I often say to teachers, gospel teachers, sometimes it’s a great risk for a person to make a comment in a Sunday School class or a priesthood or a Relief Society class. Consequently, we need to, in an appropriate way, reward them for making a comment or answering a question. And just saying, “Yes, good.” That’s okay. But I found over the years that when a student, a young student, would make a comment that really was quite good, I’d say, “Say that again.” And she would say it again, and I’d say, “Did everybody hear that?”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:38:13 I remember when I was teaching a freshmen Book of Mormon class, we were in Mosiah 15 with Abinadi’s teachings, that difficult first four verses on the Father and the Son. I assigned them to go home that night, and for the next class period, to put together a one page summary of what was being taught by Abinadi. It was fortunate I called on this one young lady. I said, “Cindy, would you read yours?” It was amazing. It was so well done. And I said to her something like, “You wrote this?” She said, “Yeah, I wrote this.” I said, “What do the rest of you think?” And they complimented her too. I said, “I’ve never heard it…” And I hadn’t. I’d never heard it explained that well before.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:38:59 And I think letting them know they’re appreciated, letting them know that it’s worthwhile to make a comment. People need to be complimented. People need to be assured and reassured. What do you think, John?

John Bytheway: 00:39:16 Well, years ago, there was a youth theme. I usually will put together a fireside on the youth theme, and it was First Timothy 4:12, “Be an example of the believers.” And one of them is in conversation. And so, I loved to go to this verse.

John Bytheway: 00:39:34 And when I was 17-years-old, pivotal experience in my life, though I didn’t know it at the time, my bishop called me to be what they used to call Junior Sunday School chorister and now it would be Primary Chorister. And I’ve… Hank, you’ve heard me tell this story a million times, but I looked right at him and went, “I’m a boy.” And he looked at me like, “Look, you weren’t my first choice either, Buster, get in there and do it. I don’t know why your name came.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:04 And I learned later when I was a missionary in the Philippines, got the amazing opportunity to open an area. And after a couple of weeks, had about 15 kids sitting there in Primary. And I knew the songs, they were all in my head, and I could… It was an amazing experience. But some of those lyrics… I want to just say this verse seven sounds like Give Said the Little Stream. Listen to this phrase. ” I’m small, I know, but wherever I go, the grass grows greener.”

John Bytheway: 00:40:37 And I’ve known people like that. And Hank, don’t sell yourself short. You are so good with people that they feel strengthened. And I love the humility. I’m small, I know, but this is what I can do. Wherever I go, I can try to make the grass grow greener. And somebody, if they have an interaction with me, will feel a little bit better. And all your conversation, all your prayers, all your exhortations, all you’re doings…

John Bytheway: 00:41:04 In fact, I made a note to what I thought was a very interesting talk. April 1999, Elder [Cree-L. Kofford gave a talk called Your Name is Safe in our Home. I’ll just read a paragraph.

John Bytheway: 00:41:19 “What a blessing it would be if all of us could follow that counsel, if each of our names truly could be safe in the home of others. Have you noticed how easy it is to cross over the line and find fault with other people? All too often, we seek to be excused from the very behavior we condemn in others. Mercy for me, justice for everyone else, is a much too common addiction. When we deal with the name and reputation of another, we deal with something sacred in the sight of the Lord. There are those among us who would recoil in horror at the thought of stealing another person’s money or property, but who don’t give a second thought to stealing another person’s good name or reputation. The old adage never judge another man until you have walked a mile in his footsteps is good advice today, as it was the day it was first uttered. Someone once said there is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of us that it ill behooves any of us to find fault with the rest of us.”

John Bytheway: 00:42:16 So that’s a great talk, if someone wants to look that up. Elder Cree-L. Kofford, April ’99 General Conference. And when I’m looking at verse seven of Section 108, I’ve got the all underlined. And I think it was Doug Brinley that used to say, “Is that a pretty high percentage?” When he would see the word all in scriptures. So, there’s not any wiggle room there.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:42:41 May I share another quick experience? It has to do with making things better for other people by what we say. I was on a flight, I think it was in the days when we were doing Know your Religion programs, and I was going down to Texas. And so I’m on the plane. Another man comes in and sits next to me. He strikes up a conversation. We began having a nice chat. He asked, “What do you do for a living?” And I told him, “I’m a professor of religion at Brigham Young University. He went on and on and on about BYU, and he was a real fan of our football team. He called us Quarterback U, and we had a good chat. I turned to him at a certain point and said, “Now, what do you do for a living?” And he said, “I’m an ordained plumber.”

John Bytheway: 00:43:30 Ordained plumber.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:43:30 Excuse me?

Hank Smith: 00:43:31 An ordained plumber.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:43:32 He said, “I’m an ordained plumber.” I said, “I think I’ve never met an ordained plumber. What is an ordained plumber?” He said, “Well, in my profession, I’m a plumber. But I’m first and foremost a Christian. And my job, I feel like, is to go into people’s homes and to simply make their day a better day.” I was so moved by that.

Hank Smith: 00:43:59 That’s great, Bob.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:44:00 An ordained plumber. You could be an ordained lot of things.

Hank Smith: 00:44:07 If we took that charge.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:44:09 I’m glad you brought that up, John, that is strengthen people by what we say.

Hank Smith: 00:44:14 I’m going to add to the homework, John. April 2007, the Tongue of Angels by Jeffrey R. Holland. He talks about this. I remember hearing this for the first time, knowing it was going to be a talk that impacted me. And you just have to hear this one line. I hope everyone will go read both talks that John and I mentioned. Elder Holland says, “I have often thought that Nephi’s being bound with cords and beaten by rods must’ve been more tolerable to him than listening to Laman and Lemuel’s constant murmuring. Surely, he must have said at least once, ‘Hit me one more time. I can still hear you.'” Our words matter, right? He says, “No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won’t make it worse.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:59 Just our words are important. Strengthening our brothers and sisters in all our conversation. I’m glad we stopped there.

John Bytheway: 00:45:08 Alma 12:14. I tell my students I think this is the scariest verse in the entire Book of Mormon. Alma 12:14. “Our words will condemn us … our works will condemn us … our thoughts will condemn us. And in this awful state, we shall not dare to look up to our God; and we would fain be glad if we could command the rocks and mountains to fall upon us to hide us from his presence.”

John Bytheway: 00:45:27 And then I say footnoted is the second scariest verse in the standard works. I think it’s Matthew 12:36. “Every idle word that men shall speak they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.” And then I make it worse. Pack your bags, kids. We’re going on a guilt trip. Every idle word that men shall speak or text or blog or post they shall give account thereof. And by that time, we’re all guilty enough. We have a closing prayer and go home.

John Bytheway: 00:45:52 But this is the opposite. Just strengthen in all, all, all, all. And I think I read in one of the commentaries that conversation in your Webster’s 1828 Dictionary was more than just your words. Yeah, it was your conduct. So, this expands to more than just our words, but we can apply that in both ways beautifully.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:46:17 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:46:18 Yeah, absolutely.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:46:20 Should we go to [Section] 107?

John Bytheway: 00:46:20 Let’s do it.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:46:22 Okay.

Hank Smith: 00:46:23 This is landmark, right, Bob? This is huge. Not just for the saints of the time, but for us.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:46:28 Yeah. The Twelve were called, what, a month before? Month and a half before, First Quorum of the Twelve. They’ve been receiving instructions. They come together. I love the way this preface reads on the date and name, the Twelve met in council, confessing their weaknesses and shortcomings and expressing repentance, seeking the guidance of the Lord. They’re about to go on their missions, one of their missions. And so, this is an interesting section. A number of the things that are in Section 107 were revealed as early as November 1831. And yet, I think when the prophet put it all together, he put this… This is the section on priesthood. 84 is awfully good, but 107 I think is the most complete section on priesthood and priesthood government.

John Bytheway: 00:47:28 Bob, I don’t think this is something we’ve mentioned before that we should probably should, is that sometimes we think of sections of the Doctrine and Covenants as just coming that one day. But these are things that sit in Joseph’s mind maybe for years, as you’ve said here, this is 1835 and some of this is coming in 1831, and he’s finally… Maybe he’s come to the right moment where it’s time to put it all out on paper.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:47:54 Well, yes. I think for the first addition to the Doctrine and Covenants, he determines that there are certain things that have been said about priesthood at different times by the Lord. And we put them into one-

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:03 Things that have been said about priesthood at different times by the Lord and we put them into one section. Section 20 is very similar. Section 20 is put together in different ways. Yeah, this wasn’t just one revelation. This is several revelations, but he’s combined them into one, because it deals with priesthood matters.

John Bytheway: 00:48:18 I’ve heard Scott Woodward refer to this as a, “Patchwork revelation.” In fact, I think part of Joseph Smith giving a blessing to his father, Joseph Smith, Sr. Two or three verses are in here, right?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:32 Well, the whole thing about, “I saw Adam-ondi-Ahman-“

John Bytheway: 00:48:35 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:37 That is from a blessing. Joseph blessing his father and his mother, the occasion.

John Bytheway: 00:48:42 But it’s revelation and it’s-

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:44 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:48:45 -worthwhile for all of us. So, it’s all put in here, yeah.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:48:49 You know, even in these opening verses it’s interesting, “There are, in the church, two priesthoods, namely the Melchizedek and Aaronic, including the Levitical Priesthood. But that was interesting, “Why the first is called the Melchizedek Priesthood is because Melchizedek was such a great high priest. Before his day, it was called the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:49:10 This next line is interesting to me, “But out of respect or reverence to the name of the Supreme Being, to avoid the too frequent repetition of his name, they, the church in ancient days, called that priesthood after Melchizedek, or the Melchizedek priesthood.” All of that’s important, but I’m taken by the fact that refers to the church. The church in ancient days. I think there’s always been a church of some kind. It just took different forms at different times.

John Bytheway: 00:49:44 Boy. Good point an Old Testament church, even.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:49:47 Yeah, an Old Testament.

John Bytheway: 00:49:48 Yeah. Good point.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:49:49 Let’s look at something. Look at verse five. I don’t think we pay any attention to verse five and it’s deserving. “All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages to this priesthood.”

John Bytheway: 00:50:01 Here’s that word “all.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:50:04 Yes, which sounds like “all.”

John Bytheway: 00:50:09 It’s remarkable.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:50:10 I’m thinking about, “All other authorities or offices in the church are appendages.” Think about that. An appendage is an extra. Something stuck-on. Listen to what President Joseph F. Smith says in Gospel Doctrine. This is on page 148. “There is no office growing out of this priesthood that is or can be greater than the priesthood itself. It is from the priesthood that the office derives its authority and power. No office gives authority to the priesthood. No office adds to the power of the priesthood. But all offices in the church derive their power, their virtue, their authority from the priesthood. If our brethren would get this principle thoroughly established in their minds, there would less misunderstanding in relation to the functions of government in the church than there is.” He goes on and talks about elders and high priests used to debate, which is greater.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:51:14 And he makes the comment “Neither. They operate in different directions,” he said. The high priests have certain responsibilities, the elder had certain responsibilities. And so, I think that the offices and the priesthood are appendages. Think for a minute when John the Baptist restored the Aaronic Priesthood, what office did he ordain them to? Well later Joseph Smith in a sermon, very late says, “Ordination Priests.” But there’s no mention of office in the ordination, is there?

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:51:54 The priesthood was greater than any office that they would have. You can see that officers are important and quorums are important, but the priesthood itself is what it’s all about. I’m just going to jump around. Verse eight, “The Melchizedek Priesthood holds the right of presidency and has power and authority over all the offices in the church and all ages of the world to administer in spiritual things.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:52:22 The phrase “right of presidency,” when I see that expressions, ding, ding, ding, goes off in my mind. That is a synonym for keys, the right of presidency. Or if we would say directing power. Directing power. I remember in our ward 100 years ago, it was when my dad was Bishop, I’m exaggerating, it’s probably no more than 80 years ago, but dad was Bishop, we had a man in the ward, a very interesting guy, baptize his son and he didn’t want anybody from the ward there, including no member of the Bishopric. And dad tried to explain to him, this is done under the keys of the priesthood and you don’t hold the keys to the priesthood. Basically, it’s a delegation to allow him to do that. But I remember the quite… That little debate the man had with dad about that.

Hank Smith: 00:53:18 If I’m a Melchizedek Priesthood holder, the only way I can pass that Melchizedek onto say, my son, is through a priesthood key holder. I just can’t choose to do it. I just can’t say, well, I have the Melchizedek priesthood, I’m going to pass it on. I need someone who holds the keys to direct me to give that priesthood to someone else, including my own child.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:53:41 And it’s so crucial because this is the way the governance of the Church has to operate that that way, or are you going to have chaos. Everybody blessing and ordaining everybody else.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:53:52 I’ll just say this, there are certain ordinances that, of course you or I could perform in our home. Blessing our children, blessing our wife. But even during the COVID times with administering the sacrament in the homes. The Bishop was responsible to oversee that. I’m sure there are people say, “Well, gosh, why do I need the Bishop’s approval?” Well, because the ordinances of the gospel are under his direction in our ward. The keys.

John Bytheway: 00:54:20 We’re sitting in sacrament meeting just a couple of weeks ago, and my wife is nudging me, I think they need some more to go pass the sacrament. And I’m looking at the Teacher’s quorum president because that kids got keys, I don’t, I can’t jump up and do it.

John Bytheway: 00:54:42 And the other reason is because that kid with the keys was my boy Timothy, and I could see him texting and I knew he wasn’t playing a game. He was getting other people to pass. And I was so thrilled to see, “No, let the kid with the keys, figure out how to get more sacrament passers there.” And I love that, that way that we do it. And boy, what a centrally-organized church we have, and this section is so much a part of that. I don’t know how, and you probably know better than I do, but you have so many friends and have done so much outreach with our evangelical friends and so forth. If they have a central body, if they have a governing body, I’m not even sure you could maybe speak to that, but look what this section does.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:55:34 Well part of the problem with… I looked up the other day, just how many Christian churches there are in the world as of 2021. And the number that I got was 30,000. Now, how would that happen? Martin Luther introduces the concept of the priesthood of all believers at the time of the Reformation. But he also introduces the idea that every person becomes his or her own interpreter or arbiter of the meaning of scripture. Sometimes we don’t think about the value of that priesthood line in terms of determining what is doctrine. I don’t know if you remember this when President Hinckley was interviewed, I think it was by Larry King. One of the questions he was asked, “What is your job?” And Brother Hinckley’s first answer was, “I oversee doctrine.”

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:56:39 And that is significant. Because now I can say this, in the Roman Catholic Church, you’re more likely to be able to stay properly connected and things to be done in a certain, because there is a priestly hierarchy. I suppose in the Church of England, that would be true as well. But in Conservative Protestantism, the priesthood of all believers operates, a person feels to be called by God, and then assumes a mission or assumes the right to preach.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:57:17 And the difficulty we have is how do you control for accuracy of doctrine? I was talking with a very dear friend of mine, evangelical friend, who works in Denver, Denver Seminary. And we were chatting about something. I was in Denver and he said, “Well, you see Bob, you got to always be looking over your shoulder to make sure that you get it right.” He said, “with me, I can take a passage of scripture and write a 10-page document on it. And my neighbor down the hall can write a document on it can be vastly different, even contradictory.” He said, “that’s the beauty of our system.” I said, “Well, actually, that’s chaos.” Because again, it’s every man for himself, every woman for herself, in terms of doctrinal understanding. Now that’s not even priesthood government so much as it is the value of apostles and prophets. I know for years you’ve heard us say, or we’ve said, I’ve said, we’re the only people on the earth who believes God still speaks to man. Well, you know and I know that we have some wonderful Protestant and Catholic and Jewish and Muslim friends that pray for divine direction and they receive it. Of course, they do. But what we really mean by that is, we’re the only organization on earth that has Apostolic authority by which revelation for the governance of the entire Church takes place. And so right of presidency keys, I think pretty significant.

John Bytheway: 00:58:54 And one more thing when Elder Christofferson gave that talk called Why the Church? In 2015, I took that apart every little… Why do we have a church? Because my students ask, well, why do we need that? Can I just be spiritual but not religious or something? And one of the points was to keep the doctrine pure, to protect the doctrine.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:59:13 That’s a big one. And to make sure that the ordinances of the priesthood are done under proper authorization and best that they’re carried out properly, performed properly.

Hank Smith: 00:59:23 Recently, I had a conversation with a friend, Eric Reyerson who said, “You really have to understand American history to understand the history of the church.” And I think with [Section]107 Bob, wouldn’t you say that in Protestant America where Joseph Smith lives, priesthood is not something they’re going to be discussing. This is a very Catholic idea and there’s not a lot of Catholics around Joseph and the saints.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 00:59:50 I think that’s one of the more interesting things about the early days of the Church is, like you’re saying, there weren’t many Catholics around the great infusion of Catholic in the latter part of the 19th century and into the 20th century. Yes, Joseph Smith was living in Protestant America. And thus, it’s a rather unusual thing. If you’re trying to come up with a sociological explanation for Joseph Smith and the Church to have something that sounds very, very priestly, a priestly hierarchy. Well, that’s what it is. And so in that sense, I believe the Catholics have it right, in terms of the idea of governance and oversight.

Hank Smith: 01:00:29 I’ve heard someone say if Protestantism and Catholicism had a child, it would look a lot like the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 01:00:39 We have some things… Let’s take it this way, our sacrament meeting would not be too different than a worship service of Conservative Protestants, I’ll say. An evangelical meeting. And yet priesthood government, there’s an order.

Hank Smith: 01:00:56 And the temple, it looks more Catholic than it does Protestant.

Dr. Robert L. Millet: 01:00:59 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 01:01:03 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.