John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast. I think this might be John Johnson’s favorite section of the Doctrine and Covenants, though.

Dr. Susan Easton…: 00:11 Well, I would think so.

John Bytheway: 00:14 That have that promise given to you in verses six and seven there, compliment from the Lord.

Dr. Susan Easton…: 00:20 Yeah, that he can have eternal life. It’s almost like he’s been given a patriarchal blessing where he says, he’s a descended from Joseph. I’m like, “Wow.” He’s getting these amazing promises. And it’s interesting, the very day that that section was received, June 4, 1833, Father Johnson becomes a high priest. So, it’s like the very day and he’s becomes a high priest, is given these amazing promises. But he’s also told, “Promises are his, and as much as you keep my commandments.” And then, you go, “Oh, no, I want to know without that.

Dr. Susan Easton…: 01:01 I like the promises. I got to keep it at the end.

John Bytheway: 01:06 So, I have a question, just knowing that the two of you have been there probably many times, the John Johnson Farm in Hiram, does that go out of his hands at this point? And then, the church purchased it later on, or Willard Bean did at some point, is that right?

Dr. Susan Easton…: 01:24 Right. It’s a later purchase that eventually falls into the hands of the church, but Father Johnson has sold that. He doesn’t like living across the street from Simonds Ryder, right? And you’ve got the neighbor involved, and tarring and feathering, he’s ready to get out. So, he moves about 30 miles. And his house in Kirtland is actually pretty close to the Kirtland Temple. So, you’d say, “Well, he got one of the choice lands of inheritance for himself.” Right?

John Bytheway: 01:52 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 01:53 But you’d say for Father Johnson, after becoming a high priest, he’s placed as a member of the Kirtland High Council. So, in this stake, you’ve got basically when Bishop at Kirtland High Council, and you’d say for him, he has financial problems. And it’s hard to say, but it seems like, although we’ve talked about buildings, we’re talking about finances.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 02:22 And each one of these sections, there’s a finance element. And for him, Father Johnson leaves the Church in 1837. And he dies in 1843, and is buried outside of the Kirtland Temple in that small cemetery there. So, Hank, next time you’re there, which sounds soon, you’ll go out and see his grave. So, I think one of the sad chapters and the question is, remember the… you get all these promises, and it’s always the if and as much as you keep my commandments.

Hank Smith: 03:01 One of his sons is going to end up coming to Utah.

John Bytheway: 03:04 Is that Luke?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 03:04 Yeah, Luke. Luke comes to Utah.

Hank Smith: 03:10 Yeah. So, you hope that the family still with us, right? That’s the hope that-

Dr. Susan Easto…: 03:14 Okay, I’m counting. I think, yeah, Father Johnson, we’re forever grateful to him. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 03:21 I love it. I love it. And the John Johnson Farm is a memorial to him and his wife, and what happened? I mean, not everyone’s going to get the chance to go out there. But if you do get that chance, it’s a memorial, it really is to all the Saints of that day, but especially John and Elsa Johnson. I think we need one for Miss Jaques, right? We need a Vienna Jaques.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 03:49 Yeah, Vienna Jaques.

Hank Smith: 03:50 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 03:52 Also, just that John Johnson Farm. I mean, the Section 76 in the upstairs room there. I’m so glad we have that, that you can walk in there and imagine that incredible. The Section 76 was such a… what would the covey call it? A paradigm shifting, amazing revelation about-

Hank Smith: 04:13 A game changer, yeah.

John Bytheway: 04:14 … salvation and the afterlife, that we still have that same sacred space is wonderful.

Hank Smith: 04:22 Susan, what do I do with these wonderful, wonderful men and women who don’t end up staying through the whole thing? Right. We love to tell those stories of the Joseph Knight, the Parley P. Pratt, the Brigham Young and their spouses who make it all the way. All the way, they go the distance. But then, you have people like the Whitmer’s and John Johnson. And we can’t discount them and their sacrifice, but we also need to say, “Endure to the end.” Right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 04:54 Right. I think all of us eventually can look in our families, extended family, and see those that have made sacred covenants. And I’ve actually made some wonderful contributions to the Church, these missionaries that have sacrificed their time to knock on doors and bring people into the Church.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 05:14 And then, you look, “Where are they?” And I think we leave the judgment in the hands of the Lord. I’m hoping I’m worthy to be able to shake my hand of Father John Johnson for his greatness of… I mean, his money was used to purchase that Peter French farm, at least part of it and where the temple stands. I mean, for that alone, he did something great. And I guess none of us know what’s going to happen in our lives. And I think we’ve all gotten hits along the way.

Dr. Susan Easton…: 05:52 You can’t try to make a difference without somebody needling you. And sometimes it gets too much, but hang in there. You don’t want to lose the Spirit of the Lord, you want the Spirit with you always. And let the Lord judge.

Hank Smith: 06:13 I love that. I love that. It’s sad to me that sometimes the people like the Whitmer’s or John Johnson, or even Martin Harris, get a bad name because they had a time where they fell away. When saying this, “Listen, this is not an easy time to be a member of the Church.” Especially 1837, like you mentioned, in 1838. Yeah, very difficult times. And speaking of difficult times, that takes us to Section 97, right?

Dr. Susan Easton…: 06:42 Can you believe we’ve made it?

Hank Smith: 06:43 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easton…: 06:44 Okay.

Hank Smith: 06:46 Section 97 comes upon some really difficult times that are happening, not in Kirtland, but back in Jackson County. We alluded to this earlier. The heading says, “Severe persecution.” Can you tell us what’s been happening there?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 07:02 Yeah. So, we know 1831, the Saints are gathering now to the “center place,” like you talked about, Hank, the center place there in Jackson County. And by the time we picked him up in the summer now of 1833, you’re looking at about 1,200 Latter-Day Saints have moved out to Jackson.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 07:22 They’ve faced lots of problems with their neighbors, who are independence settled by people from Kentucky, their slave owners, even Alexander Doniphan, slave owner, right? And so, you’d say there’s been conflict back and forth. But now for the extreme, on July 20th of 1833, notice the revelation is August 2, 1833. But on July 20, 1833 in Independence, flames of hatred have been ignited. And you get 400- or 500-men device to plan, just literally a plan.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 08:04 Can you say it conspiracy? I don’t know. But they got a plan. Joseph said, “I got a plan for the temple.” Well, here’s these 400 or 500 way too many for a committee, right? But 400 or 500, they plan that they’re going to rid Jackson County of all Latter-day Saints. And they say, and I quote, “No Mormon shall in the future move to or settle in this county.” Now, I’ve met a lot of Latter-day Saints in Jackson County, and they’re wonderful.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 08:33 But they say, “No Mormon shall in the future move or several in this county, that those now here, who shall give a definite pledge of their intention within a reasonable time to remove out of the county shall allowed to be remained unmolested.” In other words, we’re going to get the rest of you guys. So, violence breaks out. Remember that Evening and Morning Star? W. W. Phelps says, “Presses destroyed the Gilbert and Whitney Store.”

Dr. Susan Easto…: 09:06 The things in the store are now thrown out, houses are pillage. Church leaders, Charles Allen, Edward Partridge, they’re tarred and feathered in the town square. I don’t know if they remember tar and feathering, but it’s not road tar, it’s pine tar. And a lot of people in America are tarred, Southern abolitionists, wifebeaters. And on July 20, 1833, Edward Partridge, a bishop and a faithful member of the Church, Charles Allen, a lot of people are tarred, but when you feather, it means you mock the man for what he stands for.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 09:47 It’s like a chicken, you mock what he stands for. And then, three days following this incredible abuse, three days following, here comes some 500 men again. And they’re armed with rifles, pistols, whips, clubs. And they’re shouting, “We will rid Jackson County of the Mormons peacefully if we can, but forcefully if we must.” And so, at this point, you get leaders like Edward Partridge signing, saying, “Hey, we’ll be the ransom for the Church.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 10:26 We’ll step up, and we’ll agree to leave Jackson County.” And so, they signed this, and the Saints are very, very frightened. And Joseph receives the revelation. And basically, it was, “Those that signed, leaders, and said they would leave that basically they need to leave.” But in his revelation, Joseph is saying to the saints, “Don’t sell your lands. Zion is still Zion. Hold on, you can do this.”

Hank Smith: 10:55 And I can’t tell you how important it is for people to realize that Edward Partridge can’t contact Joseph Smith. He can’t text him and say, “What do I do?” Right? If you want to get a-

Dr. Susan Easto…: 11:07 No Pony Express. No telegraph. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 11:10 Yeah, it’s going to be two months before he can get any direction at all. So, I think he signs to leave to end the violence, right? To say, “Okay, we’ll sign your contract because we’re scared.” And it’s just going to lead to further people getting hurt.

John Bytheway: 11:28 But this revelation, when it was received on August 2nd, and that tarring and feathering was July 20th, did Joseph Smith have any idea what had happened when he receives this revelation?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 11:42 Not that we know of. In other words, all that’s going on, and in Joseph’s case, when you look 1833 July, people are building the temple. It’s part of the building, right? But he receives this revelation. “And Zion’s not going to be removed, Zion is pure in heart. And be pure in heart and go ahead and build your houses.” Now, let’s make this happen.

Hank Smith: 12:05 Right. There’s no way Joseph knows what’s happening.

John Bytheway: 12:07 The news travels too slow back then.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 12:10 News travels too slow. And the Lord doesn’t want them to sell their lands of inheritance in Zion. In other words, “Still build up. Be pure in heart.”

John Bytheway: 12:19 All right.

Hank Smith: 12:20 The Lord knowing they’re going to be driven out, “Don’t sell. Because then, you don’t have the cause of that’s ours.” Right? And we deserve it. And so, there’s a lot to come where we’re going to try to get our land back. Right? Correct me if I’m wrong, but 400 and 500 people get together to drive a certain people out of their county, that doesn’t seem legal. Even in 1833 Missouri, it doesn’t seem like a legal thing. So, Joseph Smith is going to spend a lot of his time after this trying to follow through on the legality of this. Right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 12:58 Right. Correct. And as you eventually see, the saints eventually being forced out by November of ’33. They’re going to start that whole court action, and then you get for the first time, the saints are going to hire Alexander Doniphan.

Hank Smith: 13:14 Yeah, as their lawyer.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 13:15 Right.

Hank Smith: 13:16 What’s it like for those saints who have to leave the county by winter? You spend your whole spring in summer preparing for winter, and now you got to go. Who is it that writes to Joseph saying, “We are destitute here on the other side of the river”?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 13:35 W. W. Phelps. And you realize who could be more poetic and say it how it is. Phelps, man writes, praise to the man’s, swear to God. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 13:48 Yeah. So, I can’t imagine. And they just got to get on the other side of the river. That’s it, right? On the other side, is it a creek or is that the Missouri River?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 13:56 It’s the Missouri River.

Hank Smith: 13:58 They’ve got to go on the other side Missouri river.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 14:00 Right. You got Independence and Jackson County, and the other side of the river, Clay County. And they’re moving on to a town called, Liberty.

Hank Smith: 14:07 Okay. Yeah. And Clay County is, I’ve heard it described as like Utah County and Salt Lake County. There’s political differences, right? Almost at the county line. Right? Is Clay County safer for them?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 14:22 To some extent, at least at first couple of years, but they are literally the cousins of the Kentuckians that settled in Jackson County. So, they don’t have the history, the heritage. They don’t have the independence, which is a trailhead. As you’re heading down the Santa Fe Trail, they don’t have the… so many transients and perhaps unwanted in the community as Clay County.

Hank Smith: 14:51 Oh, okay. So, you’ve got these Mormons, as they would call them, crossing the river into your county, 1,200 of them. That would be quite a sight. I mean, that’s probably half the population of Independence is now crossing the river in the dead of winter.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 15:12 Yeah, just about.

Hank Smith: 15:12 That’s right. Setting up tents, I would imagine, I guess on the other side.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 15:17 Well, I don’t know if they even have tents, at least throwing some blanket on a tree or quilt.

Hank Smith: 15:24 And so, this is… the August before that happens, should we jump into the verses then? And take a look at what the Lord has to say before Joseph even knows about what’s happened? Fascinating that the Lord’s talking about this, and Joseph is probably thinking in his head, “Had something happened?”

Hank Smith: 15:45 You can see that the Lord is saying, “This is about Zion. This revelation is not about Kirkland, it’s about Zion.” Because he says in the first verse, “I will show you my will concerning your brethren in the land of Zion. Many of whom are truly humble and are seeking diligently to learn wisdom and to find truth.” So, it’s almost as if the Lord is saying to Joseph, “Yeah, something’s going on there that you’re not aware of.”

John Bytheway: 16:09 I love that he says, “I say unto you my friends,” the part that you just read, “many of whom are truly humble,” tells us that many are and some are not. Yeah. But, “I’m going to show mercy to the meek,” in verse two. And then, he speaks about Parley P. Pratt in verse three.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 16:33 Right. Many things were good going on in Independence. And you’ve got to remember the trailhead, pretty exciting place to live. And you’d say, well, they’ve got homes, they’ve got stores, they’ve got their printing press. And for Parley P. Pratt, he started the school, like the School of the Prophets. And I think in those verses, the Lord is very pleased.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 17:00 That Parley would follow through on that. And eventually, you’re going to get our first school for children is actually coming in Independence. In other words, there’s a real push for education there.

Hank Smith: 17:16 I think one of our… I can’t remember who it was, John, but one of our earlier guests called, Parley Pratt, the Paul of the Latter-day Saints. Right? We talked about people who move and get things done. I would say, Parley P. Pratt in that category.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 17:29 I think he might have been taller than Paul.

Hank Smith: 17:31 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 17:34 Yeah, okay.

Hank Smith: 17:35 But he gets things done. Parley. So, things have been going well, you would say, despite the difficulty with your neighbors, yeah?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 17:45 Yeah, cultural, social differences. I mean, can you imagine if people moving into your neighborhood saying, “The Lord has given me this land, this is Zion?” I mean, even though all of us live among Latter-day Saints, we probably look at the neighbor askance. Right? When you got, and they wanted to miter up the corners of your land, in other words, we’re going to have certain parcels, whereas they were Squatters’ Rights. Independence was the farthest town in the whole US at that time. And Jackson County-

Hank Smith: 18:22 It was in the West, right?

John Bytheway: 18:22 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 18:23 Right. And Jackson County name for Andrew Jackson, “Our People’s President” where you could stop saying, “Ladies and gentlemen, we’re all trying to be aristocratic.” I mean, he was a commoner that rose up. And so, with that, you’ve got different thoughts going on as they come into that area.

Hank Smith: 18:45 Yeah. So, it makes sense they’re having this contention. But they’re still… it’s been two years that they’ve been there. And so, they’ve started a school, you’ve said, they’ve got their printing press, which is pretty incredible to have a real printing press way out in the far west. Now the Lord starts to say in verse seven, “The axe is laid at the root of the tree.” I’m talking about good fruit.

Hank Smith: 19:09 I think what you mentioned earlier, Susan, about the Saints, some of them saying, “Hey, this is our land, the Lord is going to give it to us.” I think the Lord advised against that, didn’t he early on when they were going there?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 19:20 Right.

Hank Smith: 19:21 He said, “Let’s not do this with…” I can’t remember the exact verbiage.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 19:27 Yeah. It’s like at the very same time, Kirtland is always the gathering place. But those that are called and elect to go up to Zion, meaning up to Independence, are on the way. So, if your calls to go to Zion and you elect to go, perhaps there’s arrogance in the experience once you have arrived.

Hank Smith: 19:50 That’s interesting because I wonder, why would these Latter-day Saints… you would think telling someone that God’s going to give you their property is not a… it’s exactly not in how to win friends and influence people, right? But there’s probably maybe some excitement there. And like you said, maybe some arrogance that I’ve been called to go to Zion someone that before they were called, right? Some just showed up.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 20:17 Right. They just showed up. Or for the record, just shows up.

John Bytheway: 20:20 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 20:21 Yeah. And yeah, I think every part of you, just going, “I can’t handle too many at once.” So, I can see that… I mean, where do we place… I’ve always struggled with this. Where do we place the… I wouldn’t say the blame for what happens in Jackson County in 1833, but you’d say part of it falls on the Saints. But obviously, part of it falls on these Missourians for… I mean, this violence is unwarranted.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 20:49 Right. In other words, Latter-day Saints, those coming to Ohio have a northern heritage, and those living in Missouri have a southern heritage, southern culture. And it’s like mixing water and oil. You can try it, you shake, shake, shake. But eventually, it’s still separate.

Hank Smith: 21:11 From historian saying, almost in history, no two people were not fit to live in the same neighborhood than the Missourians of 1831, 1832 and 1833 and the Latter-day Saints. It just lined up as a perfect storm. Let’s continue on in the section here and talk about the Lord saying, “I’m willing to observe their covenants by sacrifice.” That’s an interesting phrase, “Observing your covenants by sacrifice.” He’s still talking about those in Zion, right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 21:50 Right. But sometimes you can make your covenants, but then y’all always seem to get some Abrahamic test. Is this one that will blow you out of the water? And the question is, who’s on the Lord side? Remember, if you sing the song, now’s the time to show and one of the ways to show us by your willingness to sacrifice.

Hank Smith: 22:19 Yeah, and to endure the Abrahamic test, right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 22:23 To endure it. And for some in Independence, they succeeded. They endured, they crossed the rivers. For the Missouri, for others, obviously, they won’t cross and eventually denied.

Hank Smith: 22:41 You know what’s interesting to me personally, is way back. If you go way back to August of 31st, Section 58, I think the Lord was checking their expectations. From what I’ve read, there’s an expectation, “We’re going to move to Jackson County, we’ll probably plant a couple of trees, and Jesus will come.” Right? That’s how great it’s going to be. And in Section 58, the very first section received in Jackson County or the second The Lord says, “After much tribulation come the blessings.”

Hank Smith: 23:07 Right? He says, “You cannot behold with your naturalized for the present time the design of your God concerning the glory which comes following much tribulation.” So, you get the feeling in Section 58, and Susan, you can correct me if I’m wrong, that the Lord saw this coming. That we’re not going to be here that long.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 23:25 Right. If we were to wrap up, wrap what we’ve done, it may all come down to the fact that in Independence… I mean, Joseph is there before anybody’s called to be there, right? And designates where the temples to be. And it’s the same kind of thing. Let’s go. And they have two years, and they don’t move it. If you want to wrap what we did from 94 on about building and building committees, are you really going to build this?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 23:57 And I’ve always wondered, what would have happened if the Saints who were interested in getting there, the mills and the stores, and they put in bridges, what if they had actually stopped and said, “I don’t mind living in the log cabin even for next year. But I do care that I haven’t built that temple there in Independence.”

Hank Smith: 24:20 It’s fascinating perspective.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 24:23 I mean, would we have a different history? I think so.

John Bytheway: 24:26 Yeah, there’s a lot of conditional things in Section 97, a lot of if then, a lot is in is much, if you’ll do this, then this, if you’ll do this, then this. And I guess, some of them… I don’t point fingers because I probably be one of them, but some of them, they failed to do it, they failed to do it speedily or something with the right intent maybe.

Hank Smith: 24:48 And that’s verse eight. They have to observe their covenants by sacrifice. That’s what you’re talking about, Susan. I can observe my covenants and build my own little kingdom. Right? The Kingdom Smith, my own little acre with milk and honey.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 25:02 We don’t like an acre. Yeah, okay.

Hank Smith: 25:03 But this is, observe your covenants by sacrifice.

John Bytheway: 25:10 Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven type of thing is. And that’s W. W. Phelps, right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 25:16 W. W. Phelps. So, I’ve always told my students, if you get called back to Independence, I don’t care where you live, but you just make sure you’re building on that temple.

John Bytheway: 25:26 Right.

Hank Smith: 25:27 Don’t worry about your own house.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 25:28 I think, yeah. It will all fall together. But when the Lord speaks, you know the time to act is now.

Hank Smith: 25:37 Observe their covenants by sacrifice. That’s one of those verses that makes me a little bit nervous. Because if you’d asked me if I’m observing my covenants, I’d tell you yes. If I’m, “Are you observing your covenants with sacrifice?” I remember the Lewis thought, he said something to the effect of your tithing, your offerings, what you give ought to hurt a little bit. If it doesn’t hurt, it’s not enough. It’s not a sacrifice.

John Bytheway: 26:06 It’s not a sacrifice.

Hank Smith: 26:07 So, I don’t know. I know you both are. But I don’t know if I’m observing my covenants by sacrifice because I probably get to that point where it would hurt a little bit and go, “Yeah, I get my covenants.” Right? But like you said, Susan, once it starts to, and I hate to say this, but once it starts to hit the wallet, that’s when it starts to hurt.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 26:30 And maybe you could say as teachers of religion, how many firesides can you give? Until you go, “Wow, I got to be with my family now.” Or whatever it might be. I mean, I think we all. And in what we’ve chosen to do in life, we have lots of opportunities to sacrifice. And in that sacrifice, bless the lives of others. But then, the question comes, “What about those in our own home as we do that?”

Hank Smith: 27:02 There’s a lot of power in that verse, “Observing your covenants by sacrifice.”

John Bytheway: 27:08 I just feel an overall tone in all of these. Just look how anxious the Lord is to give them template blessings.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 27:17 He’s anxious.

John Bytheway: 27:19 Isn’t that the outcome of all of this? “Would you guys please build the temple so I can bless you and endow you with power? And I keep telling you this.” And boy, you said earlier, Susan, I was like, “Yeah, that’s true.” Kirtland is dedicated in 1836. It’s still so far down the road, and the Lord is so anxious to get going on these things so He can bless them. And I suppose now that the temples are opening back up, anxious that we should all be anxious to get back there so the Lord can bless us.

Hank Smith: 27:50 That’s the hard part of reading this, as you know that the Lord is saying to them, “Yeah, they’re good people, many of whom are humble and seeking diligently, but not all.”

John Bytheway: 27:59 Yeah, they’re amazing people.

Hank Smith: 28:01 And yet here we are saying, “Well, they were dragging their feet, they should have built the temple.” And they’re saying, “Yeah, we didn’t have Wi-Fi like you, did we?” Right?

John Bytheway: 28:08 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 28:10 Here’s Elder Holland in General Conference, April of 2014. He says, “It is a characteristic of our age, that if people want any Gods at all, they want them to be gods who do not demand much. Comfortable gods, smooth gods who not only don’t rock the boat, but don’t even row it. Gods who pat us on the head, make us giggle. Then tell us to run along and pick marigolds.” Talk about man creating God in His own image. This is a God who demands much.

Hank Smith: 28:42 The God of Section 97 and the other ones we’ve read is one who demands a lot. But like you said, John, it’s, “I want to bless you. I want to bless you.”

John Bytheway: 28:52 I’m anxious to bless you with the temple blessings. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 28:56 So, sacrifice. Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven. One of you just already quoted that, didn’t you? Anything else about the sacrifices they were supposed to be making down there, Susan? And many of them were. You would say the Edward Partridge is, the Phelps, the Gilberts, they were.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 29:15 I think they were. I think people are taking family members that are passing through, coming to stay in their homes. I mean, accounts of helping neighbors. I mean, they’re doing that. It’s a big sacrifice. It’s the temple, right?

Hank Smith: 29:33 It’s the temple that He wanted them to get started.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 29:34 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 29:36 And that temple, I mean, after the dedication of August of 31st, I don’t think that… does anything happened after that? I don’t think it does, right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 29:44 No, not that we know of. In other words, you don’t see, like you’d say on the Kirtland Temple, Joseph clearing off the foliage, taking down the fence. Hyrum [Smith], Reynolds Cahoon digging a trench, you don’t see any of that. And yet, just like the Kirtland Temple, the city stake, you’ve got in this case, Bishop Edward Partridge is assigning out these parcels’ lands of inheritance with the temple being the center point. But can you imagine, you have this “Zion community,” but then you have nothing in the middle?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 30:24 You’re like, “Wait a minute. Where is the beacon? Where is the place for Revelation? Where is the endowment?” It’s just a space. I mean, it reminds me of the Nauvoo Temple before it was rebuilt. People had come to Nauvoo, and they look at little houses and then see this depression in the ground and curiosity, but nothing’s there. And then, the joy when it’s announced

Dr. Susan Easto…: 30:50 So, you need the temple, you need the palace to the Lord, you need the House of the Lord to get the blessings that He has for all us.

Hank Smith: 31:00 That’s wonderful, because that that seems to be the next, I would say, eight or nine verses. He talks about what they could have if they would get started, right? Verse 12, He says, “This is the tithing and the sacrifice which I the Lord require at their hands, that there may be a house built unto me for the salvation of Zion, a place of thanksgiving for all Saints, a place of instruction, a place where they can be perfected in their understanding of their ministry, in theory, in principle and doctrine.” I mean, this is a grand verse to talk about what we can get from temple worship. He says, “My presence will be there.” All the pure in heart.

John Bytheway: 31:41 Yeah, verse 16. Wow.

Hank Smith: 31:44 You go to the temple. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:45 Keep going.

Hank Smith: 31:45 You go to temple with a pure heart, all that. He says, “And my presence shall be there for I will come into it, and all the pure in heart that shall come into it shall see God.” Is that not worth the sacrifice?

John Bytheway: 32:00 Yeah, there’s that anxiousness to bless the people if they’ll do what He’s asking.

Hank Smith: 32:07 And yet, we know the future of Jackson County. We know we’re going to be driven out. We’re not going to get our lands back. And eventually, we are going to head west to Salt Lake. So, what do we say about Zion now? I mean, maybe it’s not the time to talk about it, Susan, because we’ll get to talk about this later with the saints crossing to the west and leaving everything behind. But are we looking forward to that day? Do you still think?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 32:36 Well, Zion won’t be removed. We still live within stakes of Zion. But Jackson County is still the place.

Hank Smith: 32:45 Still the place. And if you talk to the saints there, they always tell you, “This is Zion.”

Dr. Susan Easto…: 32:51 They do. And they’re fast in testimony meetings, they’re talking Zion. I don’t know if I’ve ever heard that my own ward out here in Utah. But they definitely talking to Zion.

Hank Smith: 33:00 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 33:03 We would rather go to verse 21 where Zion is a state of mind in the state of spirit.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 33:10 Right.

Hank Smith: 33:12 Yeah, John mentioned a lot of ifs. I noticed the if in verse 17, if in verse 18, the if in verse 25.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 33:18 Yeah, a lot of ifs.

Hank Smith: 33:18 Verse 26 if.

John Bytheway: 33:21 If in verse 26, if she observed-

Hank Smith: 33:23 In 27, “She sin no more.” Right?

John Bytheway: 33:27 Twenty-seven, yeah.

Hank Smith: 33:27 Their blessing is waiting, if you will do these things. Oftentimes, I want the blessings before the if. Right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 33:34 Yes.

John Bytheway: 33:35 Yeah. They’re conditional blessings.

Hank Smith: 33:39 He does seem to step back from the idea of Zion just being a place in verse 21, Susan. He says, “Therefore, verily, thus saith the Lord, let design rejoice for this is Zion, the pure in heart.” So, maybe he’s prepping them. I don’t know. This would be me and my mind. He’s prepping them for the loss of Zion, saying, “Well, yes, we’re going to lose the land of Zion for a while, but you can still have Zion.”

John Bytheway: 34:08 You can take it with you.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 34:09 I was a temple worker in the Provo Temple for a decade plus, and I was always put in the locker room, when you’re noisy.

Hank Smith: 34:19 That’s where they… yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 34:20 Where would you put her? And I was a temple worker at night. So, I didn’t see a lot of older people coming in. And there was a woman who had a wheelchair, and now she’s talking to me and she wants to know, “Where’s a locker big enough for you to be able to dress?” And I said, “Hey, I just don’t know. And let me get a supervisor anyway.”

Dr. Susan Easto…: 34:43 So, while this somebody is running to get a supervisor, I’m talking to her, and she goes, “Well, how come you don’t know? Are you new here?” And I go, “No, no. I’m not new. I’m a fixture. I’ve been here a long, long time.” And I go, “I’m just one of the flunkies here.” And she looked at my badge and she goes, “Sister Black, nobody is a flunky that gets in here.” So, what I’m trying to say is that, you build those temples and you get to go inside, then are you pure in heart?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 35:21 Are you Zion? I don’t know, I guess we’re all trying to be. And we can keep that sense of wanting to serve the Lord and sacrifice with us. Anyway, I love the temple. I’m so glad. Like John said, we’re about to be back inside more permanent. Isn’t that great?

John Bytheway: 35:42 Yeah. Yes, sometimes I wish they just had cubicles. If you could bring your books, just to be in there as a place to read and to study. It would be nice.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 35:55 It would really be smart.

John Bytheway: 35:58 Make it more like a library. Library wing in there.

Hank Smith: 36:02 Just let me come in here and-

John Bytheway: 36:03 We could call it the flunky wing. No, I’m just kidding.

Hank Smith: 36:05 You could come in here and write a book, right? Like James Talmage. So, how do we, Susan, how do we deal with the loss of Zion? How did they deal with it? Because they’re going to leave now. And how do we deal with that as well? How do you deal with that as a historian? All these expectations, all this hope, all these dreams are wrapped up in this county, and they have to go, they have to leave. How do you deal with that?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 36:38 All right. Well, I think they left. But how do you describe they never left? It took them a while to really establish homes and even businesses in Liberty and Clay County because they were still hoping. Because the Lord said, “A little season, and then you’ll get Zion’s Camp.” With the big hope, they’re coming to put us back on the property. And you’ll cover that and you’d say, for me, personally I’m grateful to live in a stake of Zion here in Provo, actually.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 37:16 And what a blessing it is. And I’ve always thought you get the stakes of Zion. And when I’m driving in to Provo, I can look and there’s the magnificent Provo Temple. And I always think, “Oh, it’s my safety net.” It’s what holds the stakes in the ground. It’s the rock is where I have the surety, the security and where I can be endowed by my Heavenly Father to receive gifts and talents. So, maybe someday I’ll be called again on a committee.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 37:52 And then, I won’t be prepared like those men who were not builders. But the Lord can make us equal to the tasks that come our way, if we are faithful, and develop new talents that will bless not just our allies and our families, but we can roam around. And what you’re doing bless the whole earth.

Hank Smith: 38:15 Yeah. I think that the blessings of verse 28 can still be with us even without Jackson County. If you read verse 28, I will bless her with blessings, and multiply a multiplicity of blessings upon her and upon her generations forever and ever. That’s still found in the temple, even though perhaps this expectation of this temple is going to be put off for a little while. I would ask you, Susan, you’ve seen your… and having known you personally, you’ve seen your fair share of trials and difficulties and the lots of expectations, right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 38:55 Yeah. Do you think I was raising my hand in the preexistence, saying, “Choose me. I can handle that.”

Hank Smith: 38:59 Yeah. You probably look back and say, “You naive little spirit, you put your hand?” Right?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 39:08 Yeah, don’t choose that one.

Hank Smith: 39:09 Yeah, don’t choose that one. How do you… I just will ask you a personal question. How have you dealt with the loss of what maybe you’d hoped would happen?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 39:20 All right. I think for everybody, growing up in California, I was definitely going to be a model forever, right? And I didn’t want to be a movie star, but model is going to be good enough, supermodel and grew to 5’2. Well, there goes that goal. And then, more serious goals along the way of what you dream about. And it doesn’t happen. And there’s something about trust the journey. Trust in the Lord. He knows who you are.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 39:52 And it may not be perfect, but it might just be good enough for now. And never lose sight of… you’re a child of God. You can do this and you can do hard things. And you can carry more. And if you lose sight of either, well, I have a saying that, if you don’t have trials and problems, the Lord scratch you off His list, He doesn’t need you anymore. But if you have enough trials and problems going forward, and you’re still serving, you’re still sacrificing, you’re still kind and loving, the windows in heaven will open up not in a way perhaps she’d ever imagined, but in many ways more wonderful. Because there’s these surprised.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 40:52 And anyway, it can be wonderful. But you have to keep holding on to the rights. You can’t drop. You can’t just touch it, rod of iron. Word of God. Just keep holding on.

Hank Smith: 41:06 Yeah. Because as I think about these poor folks crossing the Missouri River, saying, “I thought this would happen.” I think of those same… John, we talked about the two disciples on the road to Emmaus, I thought, I have an expectation, right?

John Bytheway: 41:24 We had hoped that he would, yeah.

Hank Smith: 41:28 I thought that we were going to build Zion, and Jesus was going to come and it was going to be great. Now, I’m crossing the Missouri River, and I don’t have a place to live. And why is the Lord let this happen? Right.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 41:39 Okay. Is it because He loves you?

Hank Smith: 41:41 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 41:42 I mean, thank how many people you can help because of what you two have been through. I mean, it’s that simple. If you live in a sequestered, and don’t reach out, man, no chance.

Hank Smith: 41:56 Right. And it seems those who run to, those who suffer. Those who run to others are those who have been there themselves.

John Bytheway: 42:05 And they have something to say, and they have some credibility. I love to tell the teens and my own kids that maybe the Lord loves you too much to let your life be easy. Because if you have shallow experiences, you might just end up, well, shallow. But if you have deep, even hard experiences, you are in such a position to help others. Like you said, Hank, you’ll be able to run to others and do some same boat therapy.

John Bytheway: 42:35 I have been there. I have been in that spot before, and to lift others because you’ve been there and you have the credibility because of that.

Hank Smith: 42:43 Yeah. I wonder if some of these saints who crossed the Missouri into Clay County are there with the Saints who are driven from far west five years later, saying, “Hey, I’ve done this before.” Right?

John Bytheway: 42:59 Yes.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 43:00 You can do this.

Hank Smith: 43:00 Here we go again. Those who are leaving Nauvoo to be driven across the Mississippi the other direction are saying, “I’ve been here before.” There’s a lot of empathy in these groups, because this isn’t going to be the first time for many of them when that occurs.

John Bytheway: 43:19 It is humbling. I just don’t know if I could do it. And then, you read about what they’ve been through, what have horribly you say, “We’re going through the test of gold now. And where we have enough to eat and enough to do and shelter,” and look at these people. I just want to… and looking at them and saying, “How come they did build the temple?” I don’t ever want to sound like-

Hank Smith: 43:42 Yeah, me too.

John Bytheway: 43:44 Gosh, you guys, get with it. Can you be like us?

Hank Smith: 43:49 Sitting from my air-conditioned house where I watched the prophet on my TV, saying, “Man, those Missouri Saints they should have done things differently.” That’s a hard spot. But it’s the Lord-

John Bytheway: 44:04 I haven’t walked on snow barefoot yet. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 44:07 Yeah. Let’s make that clear to all of our listeners. It’s the Lord saying this in Section 97, not us three. We are not saying that. Susan, you’ve been studying Church History almost… we don’t look it, but it has been decades.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 44:24 Since day one.

Hank Smith: 44:24 Yeah, it’s been a long time.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 44:26 How can you say that?

Hank Smith: 44:28 Not only have you studied Nauvoo, you’ve walked its streets, you’ve looked through… you know this history of these people. You’ve seen their, like the Lord mentioned here, you’ve seen when they are humble, and they’re learning wisdom, and you’ve seen also when they are, many who didn’t make it or who made mistakes and stumbled, even the leadership, right? Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon and others like him. Both succeeded and failed, you’ve seen it all.

Hank Smith: 45:02 So, I think our listeners would love to know how you feel about these. To me, when you talk about them, Susan, they seem like your friends. I’ve heard you talk about Martin Harris. And it’s almost like you’re his friend. You say, “Oh, come on, Martin-“

Dr. Susan Easto…: 45:17 Oh, I’d like to be his friend.

Hank Smith: 45:17 Yeah, come true. How do you feel about all these names that we’ve gone through in these first 97 sections?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 45:24 Okay. So, I actually did a study on those that made it to the end of the row. And that was that in and out, in and out like a revolving door and those that fight against Joseph. So, I found that there are blessings, definitely blessings for faithfulness. And you’d say, “Well, is it you’ll never get sick? You’ll never be run over by a wagon?” Okay. I mean, is it, you’ll never have heartache in your family? And I’m going, “No, no, no, no.”

Dr. Susan Easto…: 45:56 But the consistent blessings were, they seem to have a pipeline to heaven, that spirit of revelation that President Nelson is talking about, we need to get personal revelation. You see that time and time again. There were three things. The second thing was they have confidence. And you’d go, well imagine the three men we’ve talked about. “You’re going to be on a building committee.” “I’m going to be what?” And they have confidence.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 46:26 And then, the third was, they have responsibilities added to them. And you go, “Well, I don’t want that anymore.” But they continued to be added upon what the Lord is, and you go, it’s like, “I can carry more. Just heap it on me, I am ready to go.” And those three qualities seem to be the qualities I can find. And those that were faithful in building the Kirtland Temple, the press building in Independence that fled, and it’s like they just started over. So, you’ve got Spirit of the Lord, confidence and just added responsibility comes our way.

Hank Smith: 47:12 It seems to me sometimes when I’ve heard you speak that you’ve walked with them almost. In your mind, when you read about them, do you do walk with them around Nauvoo and across the Mississippi?

Dr. Susan Easto…: 47:27 Well, I don’t know if I’d be ready to do that, actually. I think to me, they’re lionized. I just think they’re magnificent. But I have written on every person that joined the Church between 1830 and 1848. So, they have been a big part of my waking hours, figuring, learning about their lives and their ability to sacrifice like we’re talking about. And I’m just so impressed.

Hank Smith: 47:58 Yeah. I think that is a good word so far in the Doctrine and Covenants. John, don’t you very impressed? Very impressed by these?

John Bytheway: 48:08 Yeah.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 48:12 Yeah, very impressed.

John Bytheway: 48:12 And humbled going, I don’t want that to be my test.

Hank Smith: 48:16 Yeah. And there’s more to come. I wish we could say, “Wow, yeah, being driven out of Jackson County was the worst of it all, but there’s more to come.”

Dr. Susan Easto…: 48:28 More trials await them, right?

Hank Smith: 48:30 Yeah. And I guess we should both love and hate that. I hate the idea that more difficulty is on its way for them and for us. But I also rejoice in the fact that the Lord is still, like you said, those three things, Susan, that we can have confidence, we’re full the Spirit, and the Lord has more responsibility for us.

John Bytheway: 48:55 I’m just so blessed to be here today because after looking at this, I am so anxious myself to get back to the temple just because I can feel how anxious the Lord is to give them temple blessings. That’s the impression I keep getting today. And it’s gotten me fired up to get back there.

Hank Smith: 49:16 If you would have asked me in February of 2020, “How anxious are you to get to the temple?” I would have said, “Yeah, I get there as often as I can.” Right? And then, here we are, this recording, what do we, 18 months since that. And you’re right, we’re studying this Doctrine and Covenants. I think I was taking it for granted a little bit. And I don’t want that to happen again.

Hank Smith: 49:41 We almost, Susan, have been able to put ourselves in the last 18 months in a little bit in the shoes of the Saints, waiting for the temple to open, right? Waiting for it.

Dr. Susan Easto…: 49:52 Yeah, we’re waiting.

John Bytheway: 49:54 We’ve had a taste of it and want to get back there. The Lord is like, “You have no idea what I have for you.” Yeah.

Hank Smith: 50:02 Just build it. All right. Well, we want to thank Dr. Susan Black for being with us today. It is always a pleasure, and we hope we’ll have you back again, Susan, before the year is over. We want to thank all of you for listening, John and I wouldn’t have this wonderful podcast if nobody listened to it. So, thank you all. And thank you for sharing it with your friends and family.

Hank Smith: 50:26 We’ve had a lot of people say, “Oh, my mom told me about your podcast,” or “My brothers texted me and said, ‘You got to listen to this.'” That blesses us and blesses, we hope, everyone who listens to it. We want to thank you for your support. We have our Executive Producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, who are much like the John Johnsons and Vienna Jaques of 2021, who are just so generous. We have a great production crew.

Hank Smith: 50:59 Though they’re not on the podcast, they are working hard behind the scenes, David Perry, Jamie Neilson, Lisa Spice, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton and Maria Hilton. We want to say thank you to our team. And we hope you’ll join us on our next episode of followHIM.