Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHim, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, FollowMe study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together we followHIM.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith, your host. I am here with my graceful cohost, the wonderful John Bytheway. Hello, John.

John Bytheway: 00:32 That is one I’ve never been called before, Hank.

Hank Smith: 00:35 John, I’ve known you for many years, you are full of grace. That’s why I can call you Grace.

John Bytheway: 00:38 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:38 You are. Hey, we want to remind everybody that you can find us on social media, Facebook and Instagram, just look up, “Follow Him”. You can watch the video of the podcast if you’d rather do that, than listen to it. You can see our faces, if you prefer.

John Bytheway: 01:02 If you really want.

Hank Smith: 01:02 Yeah, we have a YouTube channel for that. We would love it if you would go find the show notes or sources or anything that we talk about on our website, followHIM.co, followHIM.com. Of course rate and review the podcast, that blesses our lives. We love to hear from you. John, we have another great mind from the Church here with us. In fact, he’s been with us before. Tell us who is here today.

John Bytheway: 01:29 Yes, we have Casey Griffiths with us again. He did Sections 14, 15, 16 and 17 with us before. We’re really glad to have him back and I will refresh our listener’s memories about Casey. He was born and raised in Delta, Utah. That’s where Delta Airlines was actually founded. He served a mission in Fort Lauderdale, Florida before returning home to complete a bachelor’s degree in history at Brigham Young University. He later earned a Master’s in Religious Education and a PhD in Educational Leadership and foundations at BYU. His studies have focused on the development of religious education programs among the Latter-day Saints, and I want to remember to ask him a question about that in a second.

John Bytheway: 02:14 Prior to joining the faculty of Religious Education at BYU, Brother Griffiths has served in Seminaries and Institutes for 11 years as a Teacher and a Curriculum Writer. His research focuses on the history of religious education among Latter-day Saints, the history of the Church in the Pacific and diverse movements associated with the restoration. He is married to Elizabeth Otley-Griffiths. They live in Saratoga Springs with their three adorable children. Casey, welcome. But I wanted to ask you, I’ve heard people say that the School of the Prophets was like the first adult education program in the country. Does that sound right to you?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 02:55 Joseph Derowski wrote an article on that. He’s a historian at the Church History Library. He says, yeah, it was the first or among the earliest. The idea being you get your basic elementary education, then you go off. You’re pretty much an adult after sixth grade. The idea of adults acquiring further education was somewhat novel for the time. So that’s an accurate statement.

John Bytheway: 03:20 Yeah, I know that when I used to work at Continuing Education, they always loved to talk about that, that we’re basically started by Joseph Smith.

Hank Smith: 03:30 Casey, there’s just really nobody who knows the history of Church Education like you do. If there is someone, I’ve never heard of them. So maybe before we get started, what have you seen there? If someone came up to you and said, “Hey, after a decade of studying the history of Church Education and being part of Church Education, what have you seen? What have you learned? What have you loved?”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 04:00 It’s a very narrow field, first of all. So there’s probably like about a dozen people out there that are interested in the history of religious education besides me. But I’ll say, the most gratifying moment of my entire time in the field of studying, back in 2012, we were coming up on the Centennial of Seminaries and Institutes. The very first seminary teacher was a part time guy named Thomas Yates, who was actually the engineer at the Murray Power Plant, who volunteered to ride his horse for Murray down to grad … Class in the afternoon. We did not have a photograph of him. They tasked me, they basically said, “Hey, take a couple of days, track down his family. Find a photo. We want a photo to show at the centennial.” I finally found his granddaughter who was an older lady in her 70s. She had a whole photo album of this teacher.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 04:56 I got there and sat down and started talking to her. She had had a rough couple of days, her daughter just passed away. She found out that she was going to have to raise her granddaughter. I sat down and talked to her about her grandpa and how the very first seminary class actually had Howard McDonald, who was later President of BYU in it, and a lady named Mildred Banyon. Mildred Banyan marries a guy named Henry Eyring and is the mother of President Henry B. Eyring. So I just had the chance to sit down with her for 15 minutes and say, “I know that your grandpa might have seemed like this really obscure teacher. He only taught for one year before they hired a full time teacher. But he made a difference, not just in starting the seminary program, but in teaching the mother of a future prophet of the Church.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 05:48 We cried together for a few minutes. I was really deeply touched. Then I was able to tell her about the fireside where President Packer spoke. Her grandpa showed up right on the screen. They even made a little video depicting her grandpa with Dallin Bales playing Thomas Yates, who looks a lot like Thomas Yates actually. So it’s little moments like that.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 06:12 There’s men and women out there that teach early morning seminary, that just feel like why do I do this, nobody cares. I don’t get any recognition. The reason why I’ve always loved studying the history of Religious Ed is to highlight those teachers that otherwise don’t get recognition for the long hours and the sacrifice, and the devotion they show to their students. That’s just one of about a billion stories I’ve come across over the years.

Hank Smith: 06:39 That’s beautiful. Yeah. I’ve met a few of those seminary teachers, in 2020, that put them on Zoom or teaching seminary on Zoom. They thought their job was difficult before. Then it got even more difficult. So yeah, early morning seminary teachers, all those listening, we love you. Very grateful for you.

John Bytheway: 06:58 They are the unsung heroes of the church. I’m so grateful for all of them.

Hank Smith: 07:03 Casey, let’s jump in. This week’s lesson is a single section of the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 93. So just the fact that it’s that one lesson in one section can tell me at least a little bit that this is going to be something, there’s a lot here. So why don’t we let you take over? Take us back. The section is given, and it says on May 6th, 1833. So you can take us back as far as you want to make sure we understand what we need to understand before coming in.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 07:32 Okay. Yeah. You might have noticed that if Come Follow Me is just dealing with a single section, it’s usually a really long section, like section 88 is 143 verses, so it makes sense. Let’s take a week and talk about this. Section 93 is only 53 verses long. Yet what’s in there is so profound that you have to stop every verse or two and sit back and think about the philosophical implications of what’s going on. The other thing that’s really curious about this section is we’re coming in right after some sections that have really important historical context, stuff like Section 89 or Section 90 where there’s a lot going on, And you’ve got to know the story.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 08:15 Section 93 is a mystery to us. We have almost no context for why this revelation came into being. I’ve got a theory that I’ll tell you about a little bit later on. But honestly, in the history of the Church, Joseph Smith usually gives a big introduction in each section, at least a paragraph where he’s saying, “This is what is going on.” Section 93, he just writes, “The 6th of May 1833, I received the following,” and then dives into Section 93.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 08:42 If you’ve looked at it, you might have noticed that the opening of the section sounds a lot like the Gospel of John. So one assumption people sometimes make is, “Well, he must have been translating the New Testament,” because this is during his biblical translation, and this is a revelation that came while he was translating the Gospel of John. But the notes that we have from Joseph Smith’s scribes indicate that he finished translating the New Testament in February of 1833, several months before this was given. So it wasn’t part of the biblical translation or very, very unlikely that it was.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 09:16 In fact, the closest thing we’ve got to a context for this revelation, the earliest copy of it, which was recorded by Bishop Newel K. Whitney, that’s Joseph’s friend in Kirtland, on the back has a note written that says, “Revelation given to Joseph Sydney,” that’s Sidney Rigdon, “Frederick G. Williams, and Newel K. Whitney by chastisement and also a relative to the Father and the Son.” That’s what we know.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 09:43 The Lord himself gives us the best context for Section 93, right in verse 19, where he says, “I give unto you these sayings that you may understand and know how to worship and know what you worship, that you may come unto the Father in my name, and in due time receive of his fulness.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 10:02 So the Savior’s context is he wanted them to know how to worship and know what they worship. That’s why this section is such an important statement about the nature of Jesus Christ, first of all, and then secondly, the nature of God. Then thirdly, the nature of men and women, the nature of God’s daughters and sons, of all of us, and what the connection is between the three.

Hank Smith: 10:27 But how is 1833 going for Joseph and the Church?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 10:32 That’s my guess on the context. At the end of the revelation, the Savior teaches all these amazing cosmic truths about his nature and man’s nature and God’s nature. Then the end of the revelation is a stern chastisement to each of them about their families. So he basically goes down the road, “Sidney, Joseph Newell, Frederick, you haven’t looked after your family in your own house and I’m chastising you for that.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 10:58 1833 comes at the end of a long period of difficulty for the prophet, but for also people in the Church. We tend to look at it like this, it starts out with March 1832, a year prior, where Joseph and Sidney get beat up and tarred and feathered at the Johnson Farm. They recover from that and immediately go to Missouri. They go on this trip to Missouri that’s really stressful. They get back, they immediately go on another trip to New York. Part of the backstory, at least for Joseph Smith, is what’s happening to his family during all this. Most people know that when Joseph Smith was tarred and feathered, that the Johnson Farm, they lost a child, they lost their adopted son, Joseph Murdock Smith. Julia Murdock survives and grows up and becomes the first Smith child to achieve adulthood.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 11:45 But while Joseph is dealing with this trauma of being tarred and feathered, what about Emma? What’s Emma doing when Joseph has to take off to Missouri? You find out that Emma was living a comfortable life at the Johnson Farm, but she didn’t have her own home. When Joseph goes to Missouri, she gets sent to Kirtland to live with the Whitney family who have this aunt that’s really concerned and doesn’t want Emma or the Smith kids there. She kind of kicks Emma out and she moves from place to place. She’s at Frederick D. Williams’s family for a little while.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 12:20 There’s a note in there where Joseph says something like, “I came back from a long journey. Then I found Emma very sort of stressed, like she’s been overwhelmed.” It’s possible that at this point in time, Joseph Smith had been so involved in his church work, and so had Sidney, and Frederick and Newel that they’ve been neglecting their families.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 12:39 So the Savior basically chastises them for neglecting their families but after he teaches all these profound truths about where we come from. It’s almost like the connection the Savior’s trying to make is, “I want you to know exactly what a child is, and what a family is, and what an intense responsibility it is to be a father.” Then he ties that back into the fatherhood of God and the role of Jesus Christ in shepherding us all through the plan of salvation.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 13:08 So I think that’s kind of the unwritten context here is that it’s not just been a stressful year for Joseph Smith, it’s been a stressful year for everybody’s family. This is the Savior reorienting them and saying, “Look, if you’re not taking care of your family,” it’s that old David O. McKay quote, “No success can compensate for failure in the home.” The Savior is trying to say it’s important to translate the Bible and run the Church and take care of this and this and this. But remember, even if you’re the Prophet, your most important responsibility is at home, make sure those people are okay.

Hank Smith: 13:42 I’m glad that never happens today, that people get so involved in their church work that they neglect their families. Man, can you imagine if that happened today?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 13:51 It’s a serious temptation. I mean, wow. Because you feel like you’re out there, and you’re doing good. But sometimes you forget that the greatest good you can do is with the people the Heavenly Father put in the same house as you.

Hank Smith: 14:05 Yeah, that is, and I can’t tell you how many friends and family myself have … This is a pretty constant struggle. I tell my students, when I was a kid, I had to choose between good and evil. When I’m an adult, I have to choose between good and good and really good, and it’s somewhat good. It’s just all these good things you have to choose from and you have to choose where you’re going to spend your time.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 14:31 Yeah. When you’re in your third hour meeting with the state auditor or something like that, sometimes you have to ask yourself the question of, I have limited time, “Where can I use that time to have the greatest impact?” You get to be a teacher, a bishop, state president for a couple years, but you’re a father and a husband for eternity. Sometimes you have to make those priorities line up properly.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 14:56 I was really grateful because one of my Stake Presidents stood up in a High Council meeting and said, “Hey, what’s your top priority?” We were like, “Church.” He goes, “Nope. Church should be maybe a little bit further down the list. Your family is top priority. Take care of them. Then take care of your Church responsibilities. Hopefully, they don’t conflict with each other. But if they do what matters most.”

Hank Smith: 15:20 I remember when my wife was Young Women’s President, and she had in our ward over 75 young women. It was just our ward, right? I’ve seen stakes with that many young women. Honestly, she could have given 24 hours a day, seven days a week, and it wouldn’t have been enough for all she was doing. I, of course, was very supportive, John. I was very supportive. I took care of everything for her because that’s all I wanted her to do, was served. No, actually I complained a lot because she was gone doing things a lot. I’m glad you’re bringing this up, Casey, because it’s so relevant to our listeners, both men and women who are saying, “How do I balance this?” So maybe this section will help?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 16:11 Well, I think that’s part of the message. The idea, the pre-pandemic idea of home-centered church support has been a huge blessing. I mean, for every parent to read this and to say, it’s not the Young Women’s Presidency’s job to teach my daughter. They want to, and they’re going to help and they’re awesome, but it rests here at home. That would be a great message and a cultural shift to get us all … I shouldn’t say a cultural shift because it’s always been that way. This is just a good reminder.

Hank Smith: 16:48 It’s been a great reminder. For me, it was I mean, my wife took me aside once and said, “Look, you spent hours and hours on your lessons with your students and then you’re asleep on the couch with me, to Come, Follow Me at home.” I realized I needed to bring my A game to my family too. I needed to get my act together and prepare a couple bullet points. Not just be a passive learner, which I kind of was at home. I was Mr. Lead the Discussion in my university classes. But at home, I was sort of just popping open the scriptures and then falling asleep.

John Bytheway: 17:24 Well, this is great. I was noticing, Casey, when you’re talking about the background, this is one of the few that has one line for the little synopsis. It’s one sentence, “Revelation given through Joseph Smith, the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, May 6th 1833.” That is the entire backstory we’re given here. It is interesting to see, okay, it sounds like the Book of John. But that’s not it. So I love it that maybe the Lord just said, “You need this.” There’s so much here though. That’s so wonderful. Let’s jump in. What would you like us to see here?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 17:54 Oh well, here’s the contrast setting up in this section. So the two questions I sent her my lessons around when I discussed this are just how is the Savior not like us and how is the Savior like us? The section starts out by explaining how he is not like us. If you’ve just read Section 88 and a few other revelations, you come to that conclusion. I mean, the Savior emits the light that holds the universe together. I mean, Section 88 literally says he is the light and the sun and the moon and the stars. Section 93 starts out with the same kind of thing, “I am the true light, the light of every man that cometh into the world. I am in the Father, the Father in me, and the Father and I am one.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 18:36 But verse three is where you start to bridge the gap between Jesus is not like me, and Jesus is kind of like me. “The Father because he gave me this fulness, and the Son because I was in the world that made flesh by a tabernacle, and dwelt among the sons of men.” So after all these revelations about how grand and majestic Jesus is, Section 93 is Jesus kind of going, “Remember, I was once a person on earth, so I took on a tabernacle of flesh.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 19:05 Section 93 goes a long way towards humanizing Jesus, helping us see him not just as this majestic figure that upholds the universe, but as someone that had problems, that sometimes struggled in his mortality, that needed help from Heavenly Father to accomplish what he had to do. That when we speak of Jesus being perfect, we have to qualify that a little bit, right? We don’t think that Jesus was perfect in the sense that he never got tired or discouraged or even hungry or sleepy or anything like that.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 19:44 I mean, if you read the Gospels, he’s taken a nap whenever he can get like a spare five minutes. But moral perfection is what we’re doing here. Jesus never broke the commandments. But in any other way, Jesus is a relatable person that had conflict that he had to deal with and had discouraging things happen to him and and genuinely felt what it was to be immortal. Jesus is stepping down off the throne of God as the first Counselor of the universe and saying, “Yeah, I remember I was on Earth. I was like you. I had a lot of things that I had to deal with. In that sense, I’m relatable.”

Hank Smith: 20:23 Yeah. I’m excited. I’m excited about this. The first thing that’s coming to mind, and maybe I’ll bring this up later as this progresses, is that the Nicene Creed basically begins with an argument about the nature of Jesus, between Alexander and Arius. Arius believes he is someone who resisted real temptation and struggled and grew. Alexander believes no, he was always God, and never had any of those struggles. That eventually turns into that, that argument turns into the Nicene Creed. So maybe Section 93 could be an answer there, between Arianism and what became Christian orthodoxy.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 21:09 It does answer one of those big philosophical questions, which was, “How could Jesus be fully divine and fully human at the same time?” Section 93 is basically arguing he started out human and became divine again. But our idea of what divine is also is heavily influenced by Section 93. Because after Jesus explains what he is, he explains what a human being is. You find out that the whole point of the section, to know how to worship and know what you worship, is to really not necessarily just teach us about Jesus, but to teach about ourselves, and what our potential is. If you go back to verse one, this is the most comprehensive verse in all the scripture anywhere, right?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 21:54 I mean, if you had to boil the Gospel down to one verse, verse one says, “Verily, thus sayeth the Lord, it shall come to pass that every soul that forsaketh his sins, and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth, if my voice and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am.” I mean, five steps that you forsake your sins, come unto Christ, call upon his name, obey His voice, and keep the commandments. You get to see his voice and fully know what he is and to know Jesus is to know eternal life. I mean, that’s probably the best one verse summary of the Gospel that you can find in any of the four standard works.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 22:37 It’s Jesus just basically saying, “Look, what I’m asking you to do. Isn’t that complex?” It’s basically these five things. Then the next thing is, and I’m going to show you how I did it. Let’s go into the record of John and talk a little bit about what it says about my life.

Hank Smith: 22:54 Yeah, that is a comprehensive verse,

John Bytheway: 22:56 I was looking at a website that I hope our listeners have discovered, which is called Scriptures.BYU.edu, where they take any verse from the standard works and tell you when it’s been talked about in General Conference from, would it be Quorum of the Twelve on up or is it also members of the Seventy, I think? Yeah, it’s members of the Seventy since the Restoration. It was interesting to see in 93, how often verse one was quoted because that is to start out that way, it’s pretty big time. This is how you can see my face and know that I am. So it was a lot on that one and a few others that I’ll mention as we go through.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 23:37 That’s the elevator pitch of the gospel. Right? I remember back when I was in grad school, they said you needed to be able to summarize your thesis in an elevator ride. If you can’t summarize it down to 30 seconds, well, Section 93 verse one is the elevator version of the Gospel. You could get on an elevator and read that verse to somebody and they would fundamentally know the essence of why we believe in Jesus Christ and why we follow him, and what the promises that you have if you do follow him.

Hank Smith: 24:04 That’s why now I can get my boys to memorize them, right? Yeah, I can say let’s go through this and have it ready to go at any time. I’m seeing a lot of the Gospel of John, it starts in verse two talking about him being, “The Light.” Then you go to verse eight, He’s, “The Word.” That’s all. I think it almost quotes John the Baptist in the Gospel of John, Chapter One in verse six and seven where John the Baptist is speaking about his experience of finding out who the Savior was.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 24:45 What’s interesting is there’s always been this passage in the New Testament that’s made me kind of go, “I’m okay with that,” where they tell the Savior that John is still testifying of Him even though he’s in prison. This is in Matthew 11:11. Jesus says, “Among them that are born of women, there have not risen greater than John the Baptist.” I mean, it’s Jesus ranking all the prophets and saying, “Hey, there’s me and then there’s John the Baptist.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 25:13 But you look in the New Testament record, John baptizes Jesus and is the forerunner. But why is he ranked so high? It seems like Section 93 is saying he’s ranked so high because the role of a prophet is to testify of Jesus Christ. The ultimate testimony of the person who baptized him and then first off his full glory saw what he really was, was John. So like I said, that’s a theory but it’s backed up by some people that I think know their stuff. This could turn out to be the record of John the Beloved, but I think it’s kind of neat to think that this might be what you would have heard if you were hearing a sermon preached by John the Baptist. John the Baptist is the person that gathers all those important disciples, John, Peter, Andrew, that go on to become apostles a little bit later on.

Hank Smith: 26:05 Of them that are born of women. I think that’s everyone.

John Bytheway: 26:10 A big group. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 26:12 Yeah, of them that are born of women, there’s none greater than John the Baptist. If you ever read the Bible Dictionary section on John the Baptist, you can tell Robert Matthews, who had a great influence on the Bible Dictionary pretty much wrote it, how he felt about him. Called Him, “The greatest Aaronic priesthood holder in all history.” Right? It said he was one of the few prophets to operate in all dispensations. There is a love there of John the Baptist in the Bible Dictionary.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 26:42 There’s a nice harmony to think that we’ve got the greatest holder of the Aaronic priesthood here bearing testimony of the greatest holder of the Melchizedek Priesthood. We’re going to learn in just a few sections that the Melchizedek Priesthood itself is really just the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God, in Section 107 of the Doctrine of Covenants. So there’s a nice little bit of connection between those two.

Hank Smith: 27:07 How far does John’s record go into this?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 27:10 Basically up to about verse 19, where the Savior takes the wheel and says, “I’m telling you this for this reason.” But because most of the stuff that you’re seeing here is found in the Gospel of John, it’s kind of when you get to around verse 12. What the record of John has to contribute really helps us understand about Jesus Christ. So take a look at this, this is where we get into the whole, “How can Jesus be fully human and fully divine” argument, because John says this, “I, John,” this is verse 12, “Saw that he received not of the fulness at first, but he received grace for grace. And he received not of the fullness at first but continued from grace to grace until he received the fulness. And thus, he was called the Son of God because he received not at the fulness of first.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 27:55 See, it seems like what John is arguing here is we sometimes have this image of Jesus coming to earth and being perfect from the get go. Not just perfect morally, but perfect in knowledge, perfect in stature, perfect in wisdom, all those things that Jesus just arrives on Earth fully formed as Jesus. John is saying, “No, He had to receive all those things back.” It’s a way of saying Jesus didn’t really come to earth with any special privileges. He didn’t get the veil lifted. He didn’t come to earth with a full knowledge of the plan of salvation. That when he was in the manger, he’s just as innocent, and I guess you would say blank as as any baby is. That he did exactly what we’ve been asked to do, which is come to Earth and gain back all the knowledge that we had in premortality, that Jesus basically went through the whole plan with no exceptions made for who He was and what He was going to do.

Hank Smith: 28:53 Why do you think that’s important for the Savior to tell these Saints and us? I can see some important things there. I want to ask you what you see.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 29:07 Well, I think it’s important because it humanizes him, right? When I was a missionary, we used to stay up late talking about Church History and scriptural figures. I remember at one point, a missionary saying to me like, “I can relate to Peter and I can relate to Joseph Smith, but I have a hard time relating to Jesus.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 29:24 Because Peter messed up all the time. Joseph Smith messed up all the time. I mess up all the time, and so I can connect with them. But we place Jesus on such a high pedestal that sometimes he becomes this almost unrelatable figure like, “Well, I’ll never be that good. So I’m more discouraged than inspired.” John here is saying, “No, he came to earth and he had to get everything back grace for grace.” That is the idea that when Jesus was born, he had all knowledge. In fact, this is the thing that kind of gets me, okay, so it’s Christmastime. One of the Christmas hymns we sing is, “The cattle are lowing/ the poor baby wakes. But little Lord Jesus/no crying He makes.” In other words, Jesus was such a good baby that the night he was born, he did not cry.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 30:19 You’re looking at that and going, “Are we sure we want to commit to that idea?” Because, first of all, it’s not a sin that a  baby cries as far as I know. Being born is a semi traumatic experience from what I understand. Was he ready in that manger to stand up and deliver the Sermon on the Mount? John is saying, “No, he came to Earth and gave up everything that he had.” We’re talking about the person who’s literally Jehovah in the Old Testament, and he comes to Earth as a child, a child like any child that we have, like we were, like every single person does.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 30:58 There’s a passage where Paul addresses this in Philippians. Let me read this, this is in Philippians 2:5 and 8. He says, “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus, who being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God, but made himself of no reputation, and took upon him in the form of a servant and was made in the likeness of men. And being found in the fashion of man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death, even the death of the cross.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 31:29 Like Paul and John right here are arguing, that the Savior went from being the most powerful being in the universe, behind God himself, to being an ordinary infant in a manger somewhere. That, like I said, should allow us to approach Jesus a little bit more carefully, like we still accept fully he never sent, the scriptures are clear on that. But did he have all  knowledge? I mean, there’s a point where the disciples basically say, “Tell us the time of the Second Coming and the Savior says, “I don’t know.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 32:00 He says, “Nobody knows except the Father, which is in heaven.” That seems to indicate that Jesus had a lot of knowledge, but he didn’t know everything. At a certain point, even he is operating on faith. I mean, that allows us to connect with him a little bit. It’s okay for us to say that Jesus got discouraged. It’s okay for us to say that Jesus struggled with stuff, that he had interpersonal conflicts with his disciples, with his family. He never sinned. But being sinless doesn’t get you out of all the complexity and trouble that still exists in this life.

John Bytheway: 32:38 You know what this reminds me of, as you’re talking, Casey, is that wonderful verse in Alma 7:11 and 12 that says, “He’ll take upon him our infirmities and our sicknesses, and that he will know according to the flesh how to succor us, according to the flesh,” it says it twice. I’ve always just thought, “Yeah, he’ll be here in a body and he’ll know.”

John Bytheway: 33:01 Rather than saying to us, “Therefore, don’t complain.” It’s more of a, “See, He knows. He can relate to what we’re going through.” He knows that because he was here in a body, and then that wonderful line that he may know how to sucker his people. As we’ve talked about, I think, succor in 1828 Webster’s Dictionary was literally to run to, to come to aid in time of need. So I like that thought that none of us can say, “Well, you don’t know what it was like.” Well, actually, I was there. I had sicknesses and infirmities or whatever those verses say. I’ve always wondered, did he have sicknesses, sounds like he did.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 33:49 I’m wondering if we say that to Jesus, “You don’t know what it was like.” He’s saying, “Hey, I was born in 0 BC, when I didn’t have indoor plumbing like you did. Okay? When I didn’t have modern medicine, I dealt with all this stuff.” Jesus as a mortal is really the big theme of this section. Like I said, for me, it feels like an important gap. Because when you read the New Testament, it is frustrating that it basically jumps from Jesus as a baby to Jesus being 12. Then he’s there as a fully formed adult. Now, that story when he’s 12, and that little mention that the Gospels make the, “Jesus increased in wisdom and stature and in favor with God and man is great.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 34:30 But to me, the underlying principle is he’s getting back who he was. It’s not just that he’s perfect from the get-go. He’s rediscovering what it means to be himself and gaining back the knowledge that he lost. Elder McConkie speculates that during this time, Jesus is taught by angels. He has to go through his seminary and Sunday School classes, just like the rest of us. But those classes aren’t learning new things, they’re a rediscovering of things that we already knew and a recognition of what our potential really is. I like that a lot.

Hank Smith: 35:08 Me too. As I’ve studied the New Testament, I thought, “Was there a moment where Mary and Joseph were reading scripture or something? Jesus says, “They keep talking about a Messiah. Who’s that?” Joseph kind of looks at Mary like, “Why don’t you go ahead and tell him?” Right?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 35:31 Or that that moment when Jesus goes back to Nazareth, and He has to finally tell them who he is. They’re like, “Seriously? The carpenter’s son.” They list off his brothers and sisters too and basically say, “The brother of so and so. You’re the Messiah?” Well, greatness grows up around us grace for grace, nobody arrives on Earth as President Nelson or President Hinckley or Abraham Lincoln, they have to rediscover grace for grace.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 35:59 Grace means gift, gift by gift. Heavenly Father gives you back the person that you were in premortality as you qualify and become. That first verse where he says, “You have to do these things,” is Jesus saying, “This is my life personified. This is what I did. I’m not asking you to do anything, except what I did myself.” He doesn’t mention the Atonement and the infinite suffering here because we don’t have to do that. He’s talking about just the day to day, making it through life, and trying every single moment to be a good person and do the right thing. He’s saying, “I did that. Don’t just focus on those hours of the end of my life. Focus on my entire life. That’s the Atonement.”

Hank Smith: 36:41 Also, there’s an amount of patience that’s needed when it says, “Grace for grace.” Sometimes I would like the process to go a little faster personally in my life, right? Let’s speed this up. Because I seem to be making the same mistakes over and over.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 36:57 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 36:59 I’ve read this in verse 15 that John says, “We heard the voice after the baptism, ‘This is my Beloved Son.'” It’s not just a testimony to John, it’s a testimony to Jesus, of who He is. That he has this powerful spiritual experience where He finds out even a yet another revelation to him on who he is. So he can move forward with his ministry with that knowledge, with that experience.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 37:28 I love anything that elevates that moment and importance because you’ll note how much the Gospel writers, and not just the Gospel writers, but the Book of Mormon writers kind of fixated on the baptism of Jesus as a point where we connect with each other. If you read 2 Nephi 5:31, this is also the argument that Nephi makes. Nephi says, “Jesus had to do everything that we have to do.” Then what’s the thing that he points towards? He’s going to get baptized, you guys have to get baptized.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 37:54 So don’t think of Jesus as this being that’s miles and miles above you that you can’t ever reach out to or that won’t have empathy for you because everything is just so perfect for him. Think of Jesus as someone who’s done exactly what you have to do and made it. A couple of years ago, my wife and I went down to this canyon in Southern Utah, Spooky Gulch, what it’s called.

Hank Smith: 38:17 Spooky Gulch.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 38:18 I like to go on these adventures, Spooky Gulch narrows down to like 10 inches across. We’re going through it. My wife was just like, ‘We are going to die, we are going to die here and our children are going to be left orphans.” The thought that kind of stuck in the back of my mind was, “No, we’re not. Hundreds of people do this every year, and only a couple of them die.” That wasn’t exactly comforting to my wife. But the idea that I had seen people coming out of the gulch earlier in the day and they survived was enough for me to go, “Let’s just keep going. Maybe we can make it through this.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 38:50 Jesus is basically picking all of us up off the ground here and saying, “Look, I did this. I know how hard it is. I know that it’s not fun to learn grace for grace.” That it would be wonderful to just have an infusion of everything you need to know to be divine and exalted. But really, there’s no easy path to becoming exalted. That you have to learn. You’re not going to be a very empathetic leader, unless you have been down in the trenches and experience what it’s like to just be ordinary. In some ways, that’s what the message in Section 83 is. Jesus was extraordinary. Yeah. But he was also ordinary in the most important ways.

Hank Smith: 39:33 Wow. It says in verse 16, and 17, that after his baptism, he started to receive the fulness of the glory of the Father. He received all power in both in heaven and earth. I’ve always read that as he chose this, he chose faithfulness, like we can, and receive the rewards. He just chooses it a little bit faster than us. But it’s the same choices that we can make to receive all that the Father has available to us in our lives today. Did you read it that way?

Dr. Casey Griff…: 40:09 I read it that way too. That’s another choice as well. Jesus chooses to be ordinary, he gives up everything extraordinary that makes him Jehovah. But then when he achieved full maturity, at that time of his baptism, He has to choose to be extraordinary again. He has to choose to be a leader. Sometimes that’s a really difficult choice too. Right? There are times when you just want to be the guy that sits in the back of the pews and is there and is supportive, but is not really doing anything too extraordinary. You have to make the choice to engage. I mean, you wonder if at a certain point, Jesus was thinking, “This Messiahship is a big burden, and to take on all power and all glory and to be the example.” To literally take the choice to submit to everybody’s sins.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 41:03 Another reason why I love the Doctrine and Covenants is that it gives us Section 19, which is that moment where Jesus says, “It was enough when I was confronting the Atonement that I shrank, that I didn’t know if I wanted to do it or not, but I did it. I went forth, and I did it. I overcame those things.” Sometimes the choice to be great, I guess, is a difficult thing too. You have to choose to engage with the world rather than just sitting back and letting it pass you by. So I appreciate that too, the choice to be ordinary and then the choice to be extraordinary, again are two things that are highlighted in the Savior’s journey here that are really profound.

Hank Smith: 41:42 I keep thinking how Section 93 would have helped the Council of Nicea. There’s this moment in the council that Arius is saying that Jesus was truly tempted, that he could have submitted to temptation, and he did not. That offended one of the bishops there named Saint Nicholas, who eventually becomes Santa Claus, that he attacks Arius in the council. He actually goes down to the floor and attacks Arius for saying that Jesus was tempted, right? Because he says no, that Jesus was never tempted because He was God. So you can see this back and forth, how can He be both? How can He offer exaltation, but yet experience humanity? Section 93 seems to answer that question, which they struggled with for six weeks and never really got the right answer even with all the councils that came after that, they’re trying to find the right answer. Here’s Jesus himself saying, “Yeah, yeah, I can be both human and divine.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 42:48 Yeah, the question of how can Jesus be fully human and fully divine, Section 93 basically just says, “No, here’s the answer.” He was fully human, he came to earth and lost everything. Then gained it back grace from grace and became fully divine. He was both. Like we said, there’s days when we need Jesus to be fully divine. When we need to know that He has all power, and that He is in control of the universe, that He’s steering the car, and we’re going to be okay.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 43:15 Then there’s days when we need to know that Jesus was fully human also, where we need to know that he’s not just this distant figure that watches over the universe, but someone that’s been down in the mud, in the muck and experienced complexity that comes from life. I mean, we need both those things to really have faith in him fully.

John Bytheway: 43:34 Well, as you’ve been talking, I keep thinking of the phrase … Well, a couple of things. First of all, I’m thinking of how heavily Greek philosophy had influenced, you’re talking about the Council of Nicea, and that was the intellectual … That was what the truth was of the day. So they’re trying to square the scriptures with Greek philosophy. They’re making compromises and so forth. But I was also thinking just how the phrase, “He descended below all things,” is a good way to put everything you’ve been talking about, Casey. That’s helpful because we can’t tell Him, “You don’t know how hard it was.” No, He knows and more because He descended below all things. That helps us to know, like you said, that He is relatable. He’s been here. He was in a body. He was, as in all ways, tempted as we are yet without sin. That’s helpful.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 44:30 Yeah. To me, it’s helpful. There are days when I’m struggling, I’m really having a hard time, and to know that Jesus went through these things and went through, like you said, John, when He descended below things. Isn’t that the most helpful phrase in the Doctrine and Covenants? The Savior doesn’t say, “I’m going to give you a magical power to overcome your problems. I’m going to solve everything for you.” He just says, “I know what it’s like.” Sometimes that’s all you need to hear from somebody is just, “Hey, I know what you’re going through.” They don’t offer any solution to your problem. They’re just offering you empathy.

John Bytheway: 45:05 I like to call that Same Boat Therapy. To know if you’re going through a trial, part of the blessing of that trial is that you will come in contact with others who are going through it. You’ll be able to say, “Oh my goodness, I’ve been there.” For some reason, like you say, there’s just something wonderful about somebody who can tell you, “We went through that or I’ve been through that,” and to feel like somebody knows what your feeling is, I don’t know why that works so well. But that same boat therapy is really powerful.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 45:43 My son has autism. He’s remarkable in a lot of ways. But when he was little, he was really violent. So violent that we would go to church, and I literally had to go to primary and hold him on my lap. He would just scratch and claw and throw his head back and headbutt me. It got to a point where I talked to my wife and said, “You know what, I’m not getting anything out of church. Why don’t we just rotate? I’ll go to church one week, and you can stay home with Josh, and you go to church one week, and I’ll stay home with Josh?” My wife said, “No, we’re not going to do that. He can’t throw a fit and get out of church. We’re there.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 46:19 There was this other family in the ward that had a kid with autism. One day when I was in primary, and it was especially trying, she took me aside and she said, “You know, sugar, you’re going to be okay. When he turns eight, he’s going to get baptized and get the Holy Ghost.” She had this deep Southern accent, “And he’s going to be just fine. He’s just going to sweeten right up.” I was like, “Okay.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 46:42 That literally happened. He got baptized and he got the Holy Ghost, and he sweetened right up. But in that moment, just to have somebody who said, “I’ve been where you were, and I’ve gone through what you’ve gone through, what you’re going through, and you’re going to get past this,” meant so much to me. Kept me going for a couple years until things did get better. The Savior is doing that here, right? He’s saying, “I did this, you guys. You guys can do this.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 47:06 In fact, when you get to verse 19, that’s the point. He says, “I told you this stuff.” Everything prior to this, everything that’s in that Gospel of John or Record of John, or whatever you want to call it, “That you may understand and know how to worship and know what you worship.” For me, the first part that’s most important is just to know what Jesus actually was. He was a human being that became divine. Now He’s going to flip the script and start to examine us. He’s basically said, “Here’s my backstory. Now, let me tell you your future story. Let me tell you what your destination is based on what you know about me.” It’s really brilliant in the way it’s structured.

John Bytheway: 47:49 Yeah, I love that verse 20, “You shall receive grace for grace.”

Dr. Casey Griff…: 47:52 Yeah, if you keep my commandments, you shall receive of this fullness and be glorified. “You’re going to do exactly what I did, you’re going to make it, buddy,” is basically what he’s saying here. I say unto you, you shall receive grace for grace.

John Bytheway: 48:05 Going backwards just a little bit. I had somebody, it was in my father-in-law’s neighborhood, somebody who is a brand new Bishop. He’s like, “Any advice?” He was talking to his former bishop, and I am a former bishop. I said, “What we’re doing right here is one of the best things I ever did.” I called a couple of friends. We went to lunch and the Same Boat Therapy coming from, “I’m a bishop here. How are you doing this? How are you taking care of your marriage? How are you taking care of your family? Do you have this happen?” I mean, we laughed. We empathized and it was just really good. I just felt so buoyed up by that. Boy, your story, I think there’s a lot of folks out there dealing with a child with autism or whatever, that will just go, “Wow, Casey’s real too.” They’re dealing with this. Somebody came along and said, “Hey, I know how you feel.” It helped.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 49:01 I remember all the bishops in our stake used to get together for Bishops Welfare Council, which is where you’re supposed to talk about welfare–a council. You’re supposed to talk about welfare, but it turns into a big group therapy session, where everybody’s like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve got a person in my ward.” They never mention names, I’ll say that.

John Bytheway: 49:18 Oh shoot.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 49:18 “But I’m dealing with this, this person that is struggling with this, what would you guys do?” I can’t tell you. I mean, that was the one meeting that as a bishop, I didn’t want to leave. You’re always looking at the clock like, “Oh my gosh, I’ve been in meetings all day.” But when we met together with the other bishops, we had a chance to kind of empathize and say, “Yeah, yeah, I understand where you’re coming from.” Like I said, we didn’t always come up with solutions, but just the fact to know that you’re not alone in what you’re dealing with. That can be really, really powerful.

John Bytheway: 49:49 So helpful.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 49:49 It can be really therapeutic, to use your word, John.

Hank Smith: 49:54 I had a friend who tragically backed over with his car his younger daughter, and she ended up passing away. Later he and his wife would see that it happened again on the news. Every year, there’s someone that this happens to. After they would do that, after they would read about that or hear about it, they would contact the person and see if they wanted to go out to dinner with them. Some people took them up on it, some people didn’t.

Hank Smith: 50:34 When you asked him why they did this, he said, “There’s something in you that when you suffer through something that excruciating, and you see someone else going through it, you automatically want to go reach out to them and share.” He said, “You just almost can’t hold yourself back from running to them and sharing, just telling them that you’ve been there and that you can take their hand and help them through it.” I think that’s maybe what we’re talking about here. That reminds me of Alma seven, John, that you already brought up. That he may know how to run to his people according to their infirmities. It’s almost as if  He wanted it to be an automatic human reaction in Him to suffer these things. So he can go and help someone else.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 51:28 You’re making me a little emotional here because I know that guy too. You and I were both brand new seminary teachers when our friend lost his daughter. My daughter was two weeks old. When I heard about him, I was so devastated. I went home and just held my baby in my arms and thought about what it would be like to have her snatched away. If you’ve experienced something, sometimes, yeah, it empowers you to go out and help other people.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 51:59 I grew up in this really small town. I knew this girl in high school whose twin brother committed suicide. It was tough because our town was really small, our high school’s a couple hundred people, and everybody knew her brother. It was really tough for her. But I worked at the store with her. That’s how small the town was, by the way. There was just the store.

Dr. Casey Griff…: 52:21 This lady came in who had just lost a baby to SIDS. I saw this young lady who lost her brother go straight over to her, not say a word. Just put her arms around her and hug her and hold her there for about five minutes, while they both cried because they both lost somebody. That’s the essence of the Savior. Right? He’s basically saying, “I can empathize with you because I’ve experienced everything. I’ve been below all things. Don’t think of me on a pedestal, think of me as someone that’s had a shared traumatic experience with you, and then knows exactly what you’re going through. In essence, that’s my power. That’s the power that I have to get you through the next day and then the next day and the next day so that you can overcome. You can do this basically.” That’s good stuff, right. That’s important stuff. That’s why we worship him.

John Bytheway: 53:22 Please join us for Part II of this podcast.