John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

John Bytheway: 00:00:07 It looks like it’s maybe a week later where section 90 is revealed. Can you give us some of the backdrop for that one?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:00:18 Yeah. The backdrop for this revelation really goes back to the previous winter a year before where Joseph is tarred and feathered in Ohio. He almost loses his life as does Sidney Rigdon. Rigdon was dragged on the hard ground and some people believe that he sustained injuries to his head that were permanent. So there was great danger that was injected into the restoration in that moment. And this caused Joseph, I believe, we don’t have a document saying this, but I think that he began to ponder at that point that his life could be taken at any time.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:01:01 He couldn’t be sure of it, the mob wouldn’t come back to get him again, and that this time they would be successful. And so when that happened, when that episode happened, he then starts to begin thinking and pondering and praying, I believe about the institution that he will leave after he goes. SO what does the prophet put in place as a permanent structure? And the interesting thing about this question, and one reason why I find this revelation to be so profound, is it really taps into an institutional problem that is found in all religions where there’s a charismatic figure.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:01:42 And by charisma, I don’t mean simply someone who’s magnetic, who has a great personality. I mean, someone who speaks for God, who receives revelations, and there are many such figures. I’m not talking about prophets who have priesthood keys as in our church, I’m talking about prophetic figures across the world and in community small and large, people that found religions, for example. The sociologist, Max Weber, a German sociologist from the 19th, early 20th century, he had a structure where he had these figures, prophet and priest, and the prophet is the charismatic figure who’s receiving revelations.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:02:26 And the prophet is great at coming up with original ideas and new ideas, but not so great at institutionalizing them. That really is someone who comes after him, namely the priest. And the priest is someone who’s… he’s not the charismatic figure, he’s the one who routinizes charisma or creates a way for it to be perpetuated. Well, Joseph is already thinking about this because the previous year in 1832, he found The First Presidency.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:03:00 At that point, it’s no longer just the lone prophet who’s speaking, it’s he has two counselors who guide the church and help him and assist him. And they’re not considered a voice for God in the same way he is like found in D&C 21, where a prophet shall be among you and he shall be speaking in my name and so on. But nonetheless, they’re now working with him so that if anything happens to him, they can carry on the work.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:03:38 Now, D&C 90 takes it a step further. In this way, there’s this language in verse two, let me read it. “Therefore, thou art blessed,” speaking to Joseph. “From henceforth that bear the keys of the kingdom given unto you, which kingdom is coming forth for the last time.” So the Lord is saying, “Joseph, you have the keys of the kingdom.” Now, based on what I just said, if the charismatic figure, the prophet dies with the keys of the kingdom, what’s going to happen to the church? Will the keys be removed?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:04:18 Well, let’s look at the next verse. “Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come.” That suggests that no matter what the mob does to Joseph, he always will hold the keys of the kingdom, even if he’s not here on earth. That still doesn’t answer the question, well, what happens to the church? Don’t they need keys too?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:04:47 Well, let’s go over to verse six. “And again, verily I say unto thy brethren, Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams, their sins are forgiven them also, and they are accounted as equal with thee in holdings the keys of this last kingdom.” Now, the significance of that phrase at the end of verse six that they are also holding the keys of this last kingdom is, should anything happen to Joseph, the keys will still remain with the church. They will be vested in The First Presidency.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:05:23 Now, the quorum of the 12 apostles has not been founded yet, it will be founded in 1835. And at that point, the structure will change to the keys being distributed among the 12, which is where we are today, that there are 15 prophets seers and revelators who hold keys, not three. But this revelation establishes for the first time that three hold the keys, Joseph is not alone. And this is just a hugely important moment in the history of the church to realize that priesthood keys can remain on the church in perpetuity even after the leading founder and charismatic figure is gone.

Hank Smith: 00:06:10 Reminds me of the moment when the three witnesses moment and the eight witnesses moment where Joseph said, “Oh, I feel that great burden lifted that someone else is now carrying this with me.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:06:25 Very much so. Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:06:27 Didn’t he tell Emma, “You don’t have no idea how happy I am. They now will have to bear their… I’m no longer alone in the world.” I think is the phrase I remember

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:06:35 Right. Lucy is who he tells, his mother.

John Bytheway: 00:06:37 It’s Lucy.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:06:37 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:06:38 He fell on the bed and said, I’m no longer alone in the world.

Hank Smith: 00:06:41 This feels like maybe another one of those moments that you’re not carrying this on your own anymore.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:06:47 Right. See, if a religion does not establish this, it leads to fragmentation and confusion and even violence. We saw this when Mohammed died, his legacy was then divided really among what came to be the Sunnis and the Shiites. And they were really fighting over, “Okay, who has the authority to take what Muhammad gave us going forward?” And those divisions are still found. Now, we have a division in our church… Well, it’s not in, but among the restoration branches that started with Joseph Smith, the third in the 1850s, but that is relatively small compared to the divisions that might have happened if Joseph had not put in place this apparatus.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:07:40 And when I say Joseph, it’s the Lord, the Lord is working through Joseph here. But if there had not been this very smooth apparatus of priesthood keys being disseminated more widely than just the founding figure, we would have been in great trouble. So it’s really wonderful to think that here in 1833, more than a decade before he passes away, he’s already working on the sort of the institutional apparatus.

John Bytheway: 00:08:14 Yeah, anticipating when he won’t be there or the Lord is and… I’ve said this before, but I just love how after the first vision, so many of Joseph Smith’s visions were shared visions. And that also makes sense to me that, hey, Sidney was there and others have to bear witness of this and Oliver was there so forth.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:08:37 Well, and to that point, John, noticed in verse one, Joseph seeks forgiveness and the Lord says, “I grant the requests that you’ve given me and I forgive you of your sins.” But in the verse I just read, in verse six, he also extends the forgiveness to two counselors in The First Presidency. So there’s really no blessing that the Lord is going to just reserve for the prophet. The blessings that are given to the prophet can be extended to others, even all the saints.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:09:11 And we see this in Doctrine and Covenants one where it mentions that in the latter days, that the goal is that every man or woman can speak in the name of God.

John Bytheway: 00:09:23 It’s so fun to go through these sections and see how forgiving the Lord is. How many of these sections start out this way? I remember mentioning that with 60 and 61 and 62, and I think 63, and here again is the Lord is forgiving, and here again, he is forgiving. How people are seeing that.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:09:42 Yes. And that’s actually the first point that I wrote down that I wanted to make in the podcast, namely that here, Joseph is 10 years. I mentioned 10 years until he dies. But if you go back 10 years, when he first asked for forgiveness, here he is, think of all the wonderful things he’s done for the kingdom and he’s carried out what the Lord has asked him to do. And I’m translating The Book of Mormon and getting it published. People wouldn’t believe how difficult it was.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:10:16 It’s not just translating that book, but in getting it published and finding the funds to do it. And now you’re starting to bring in converts, and you founded the church, and you’ve founded Zion, and you’re going to build two temples. Joseph has done everything the Lord is asking, but he still feels like he needs forgiveness and he wants, craves, the Lord’s affirmation of that. And that to me is so powerful. We live with a prophet now who’s asked us who asks for forgiveness every day, to repent every day.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:10:52 I don’t want this to sound critical, but I think we have lost the sense that we’re sinners and that we really need forgiveness. And not just once every little while, but all the time. And it’s not just when we partake of a sacrament, we should be asking for forgiveness and letting the Lord’s love and his forgiveness wash over us as we see in this first verse.

Hank Smith: 00:11:24 That’s a beautiful idea, that repentance is not just, “Oh, I need to change. I need to be better, but I also want to let the Lord’s love wash over me, so I’m going to repent today because I want to feel that I want that renewal that comes.” And I like that you point this out, John, he’s just quick to forgive. Anything else in section 90 that you see here, Jed?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:11:48 Yes. There are a number of key ideas that I’d like to just highlight. Going back to verse two, which I read earlier. I’d like to point out that the word keys is plural, so we’re talking about multiple powers. Now, one thing that’s fascinating to me is the Lord has not revealed to Joseph or this first presidency, what keys they actually have nor would they for three years. So not until the appearance in the Kirtland Temple of Moses and Elijah and Elias.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:12:26 He’s telling them they’ve got keys and they’ve got keys in the plural, but he doesn’t tell them what will happen with these keys nor what they’re even going to do with them for a few years. And so I think there’s a valuable lesson there in revelation, coming line upon line, precept upon precept and not getting hung up on the Lord, not telling us the full story. I’d also like to draw out a different lesson from this, which is that sometimes we have an expectation that this church is going to get really, really big and it’s going to fill the earth.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:13:05 We quote that line of Joseph that the gospel is going to go to all the world, and surely it will be found in every nation. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that the role of this church is to dominate, to stamp out the competition as though it’s a big competition. Priesthood keys are the key as it were to understanding what our mission is. We have a very select saving mission as inheritors of a covenant coming through Joseph and Ephraim.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:13:46 We do have this mission, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that we have to become larger, vast in the same way that something like salt or yeast is very small, but has a large effect. The keys are with Joseph and with this church, other churches don’t have the priesthood keys, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not doing good in their realm. It simply means they don’t have the same mission that we do. And so I would think of just urge your listeners to think of keys as being something small, but extremely powerful.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:14:25 Even like a key that unlocks a door or a key that starts a car, without which you could not drive or open the door. I think it’s helpful to think of our mission in that way and to think… It helps us to understand our relationship with the larger religious world and to recognize that other other churches have good things going on, they just don’t have the keys of this kingdom to carry out saving ordinances.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:14:55 I’d like to point out in verse five, there’s an interesting word that has mentioned, oracles. It actually is used in verse four first. Speaking to Joseph still, “Nevertheless, through you, shall the oracles be given to another, yea, even unto the church.” The oracles are the revelations, the commandments, the sames, the teachings. I think 19th century saints understood oracles probably different than we do today. We don’t use that word very often, but it was more of a living, breathing understanding for oracles speaking.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:15:37 And so this is the prophetic voice coming through Joseph. Now, that word is not applied to his two counselors. Doesn’t mean that they couldn’t grow into that role, but they are equals in holding the priesthood keys, but they’re not his equal, I think in this revelation in terms of the oracular function of giving and speaking divine truth. But the oracles are given to the church, so you have Joseph’s teachings that are given to the church and the prophetic head.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:16:13 That role we have President Nelson’s oracles given to the church in the same way. But notice how in verse five, now this is getting to the point I wanted to make. It says, “Let them be aware,” those who receive the oracles or the teachings, “how they hold them, less they are accounted as a light thing and are brought under condemnation, thereby and stumble and fall when the storms descend and the winds blow and the trains…” excuse me, “the rains descend and beat upon the house.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:16:45 Now, significance of that is I think with dead prophets, it’s much more easy to respect the words of dead prophets. Why that is, is probably a different discussion. But it’s very easy, I think to dismiss the living oracles, the living teachings and to hold out the dead prophets as some kind of standard by which the living have to measure up. And the Lord is really cautioning us here that we should be careful to not treat the living oracles lightly.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:17:24 And I appreciate that. I think of General Conference in how easily people dismiss what comes out at General Conference and that’s unfortunate. I think we should be aware and take this caution for what it is.

John Bytheway: 00:17:42 I love that, that reminds me of the… Hank helped me out here, the New Testament, a couple of the parables of.

Hank Smith: 00:17:49 The marriage of the king’s son.

John Bytheway: 00:17:51 Yeah. They treated it lightly, it says. Right?

Hank Smith: 00:17:54 Yep.

John Bytheway: 00:17:55 They treated-

Hank Smith: 00:17:55 He sends out the invitation.

John Bytheway: 00:17:56 They treated them lightly, it even says. And this could be compared to prophets saying, “Come to the feast and they’re treated lightly.” I like that.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:18:05 Look at how Jesus Himself was treated lightly by the religious establishment. This is not unique to our church or prophets and our relationship to prophets, but it’s something that we should be aware of that we can have greatness in our midst, again, going back to Jesus and the way He was treated by the Pharisees and the Sadducees. Just think of how they dismissed Him and how they belittled Him not knowing who He was. To me that also suggests that the greatness or the inspiration of a prophet may not be dressed up in such a way that everyone can just assent to it.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:18:46 You’re not going to necessarily bow down to it and say, “This is the most eloquent thing I’ve ever heard.” Not even Jesus could do that. Not even Jesus. He’s the son of God and He was not able to command an audience such that they all rolled over to Him. And so why should we expect that from our current prophets? They’re not just providing window dressing, they are providing truth, and it’s up to us to come to that truth and take it for what it is. Not to somehow say, “If it’s not packaged in a way that is palatable to me or is so beautiful and wonderful, then that’s the only form I’m going to accept it.”

Hank Smith: 00:19:30 The parable is Matthew 22. They made light of it. They gave this invitation, they made light of it. “They went their way, one to his farm, another to his merchandise.” Meaning, wow, they didn’t have time for it, they esteemed it a light thing. I’m going to be a little more careful with General Conference now because of what you’ve shown me here in verse five.

John Bytheway: 00:19:51 The idea of accounting it as a light thing also reminds me of President Ezra Taft Benson’s statement that he said, “Wen I participated in the Mexico city temple dedication, I received the distinct impression that God is not pleased with our neglect of The Book of Mormon.” It talks about things that we’ve treated lightly, even the new covenant. It says earlier in the Doctrine and Covenants or The Book of Mormon. So treating the prophets and the fruits of that, the whole Book of Mormon, taking it lightly maybe comes under that heading too.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:20:22 Let me make it a more historical point about 1833 in regards to this treating lightly. One of the things that this revelation does is it announces to the church that there’s a new first presidency, namely Sidney Rigdon, who was already in the presidency going back a number of months. But one of the counselors, Jesse Gause just basically disappeared, he wandered away. Yeah, he wandered away from the church and this was a problem in the early church, where converts could not be counted on.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:20:56 And as soon as you found someone who seemed like they had some leadership as Jesse Gause did in his prior religious affiliation, Joseph would have to rely on them, but then maybe they couldn’t be counted on. And so John C. Bennett was another one like this. Frederick Williams now is invited to join The First Presidency, and this is the announcement that he is a member of the presidency. Now, Sidney we know was a preacher by profession. He had a large congregation of Campbellites when he joined the church.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:21:35 He was by all accounts, the most eloquent of the preachers of the church in this time, but who was Frederick G. Williams? He was a businessman. He was someone who didn’t have any experience that we know of with preaching. And I think that the juxtaposition of this caution in verse five and the announcement of Williams as a counselor in The First Presidency, that they should be read in tandem, namely to say, “You should not expect marvelous things out of Frederick G. Williams’ preaching.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:22:16 He is not like Sidney and yet he’s called of me. He has the keys, he has the office, but he’s probably going to have to grow…” Now I’m reading between the lines of course, “He’s going to have to grow into this office as a preacher.” And I think this is also as a lesson to us, these brethren that we listen to and sisters as well in the general offices of the church, they’re not trained in preaching, or elocution, or oratory. In many ways they’re just like you and I and yet they were called for reasons that only the Lord knows and they’re doing the best they can.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:22:59 And so we should expect that the onus is really on us for us. Our style of preaching, the fact that we don’t have formally trained ministers, it demands more of the audience to come prepared. It’s not like we’re going to sit, listening to Truman Madsen where we can just zone off and think, man, if I could only be so eloquent. Our preaching normally isn’t like that. And so we then have the burden of preparing our hearts and being patient with people, along suffering and so on, recognizing that they have the mantle given to them, but they may be growing into the role that they’ve been given to preach to us.

Hank Smith: 00:23:46 That’s really great. I remember after I took a constitutional law class, I was much better able to receive elder Oaks’ talks once I took a law class. Because I was like, “Oh, it sounds to me like one of the case studies I would read in the law class.” And once I was more prepared, I was able to kind of see it for what he wanted it to be seen as.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:24:14 Absolutely. And see, I’m glad you mentioned that, Hank, because Frederick G. Williams is like Dallin Oaks in the sense that he has this other career and the career, the law is definitely helpful and can be consecrated to the use of the kingdom, just like Frederick G. Williams business is helpful for building a temple. They did recognize a lot of yield from his properties in helping to build the kingdom in Kirtland. But the point is that you don’t have to have a background in preaching to be useful.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:24:52 And all of us should take heart that wherever we’re coming from, whatever we’ve studied or our life experience being so varied, that it all can be useful even in an office like The First Presidency where you can get someone who’s in one of the highest offices in the church. Even if they don’t have a background in what you might suppose to be useful, it can still be something used to grow the church.

Hank Smith: 00:25:23 Jed, what do you want to do next?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:25:25 Well, I wanted to point out the idea that the prophetic head is the one who receives the oracles, so Joseph is unique in this respect and his counselors hold the keys with him. And so I find this significant because going back to Weber’s prophet-priest distinction, Joseph has a role that’s different from the others, just as President Nelson has a role that’s different from his counselors. But the counselors by holding the keys, they’re still officiating in the priestly role.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:26:05 So they are the priests, Joseph is the prophet slightly different terminology than the way we think of it today. But in other words, they’re sort of down from him, but not at the same time.

Hank Smith: 00:26:17 Okay. I remember watching President Monson’s very first talk as president of the church, and he seemed different to me than the President Monson we were also used to. It’s almost as if he took on a new role from that… He held the keys as part of The First Presidency, but when President Hinckley passed, his role changed and he went from supporter to the leader and I don’t know. For me personally, I remember vividly watching, going, “Wow, he feels, sounds and seems different.” Not better, but just a different role.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:27:01 This is the revelation where the relationship between the president of the church and his counselors is established. Namely; the oracles come through the head, but the counselors are still going to speak, but not with the same authority and yet they hold keys. So I don’t know how to explain that in a clear way, but see, it’s found at the end of six, equal. They’re equal with him in holding the keys, but they’re not equal with him in receiving the oracles. That make sense?

Hank Smith: 00:27:37 Yeah.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:27:38 Because oracles has never applied to them, they’re not the ones who are receiving revelations. That keys then becomes associated with an administrative function of making sure priesthood power is on the earth, so that the counselors hold that administrative function, but they don’t have the religious role that the president does.

Hank Smith: 00:28:00 I like this because it works that way in almost any presidency, in that we are equal in a bishopric, in a relief society presidency, in an elders quorum presidency, but the revelation, the teachings, if you will, the direction for the quorum, or class, or board is going to come through the individual, the president-

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:28:26 Through the head.

Hank Smith: 00:28:26 Yeah, the head.

John Bytheway: 00:28:29 I’m looking at verse 11 and I think of a… You ever seen a picture of the MTC and all those flags in front and all of the language training that’s going on. It always reminds me of that. Do you want to talk about that one, Jed?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:28:46 I do. We mentioned when we talked about D&C 89, the ambitiousness of this revolution and how it really announces that the church is a world religion by having a health code. This also strikes me as a most ambitious line of from the revelation, because at this time, the church was not found out of the Northeast in the United States. There was no language training, there were no flags, there was no MTC. Well, I mentioned that the MTC just started, but they had trouble with blowing smoke rings.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:29:22 So it was quite limited in its scope, and yet here, the Lord who sees the end from the beginning is able to say, “It shall come to pass.” You can have confidence when you hear that language. “In that day that every man shall hear the fullness of the gospel in his own tongue and in his own language.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:45 Wow.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:29:46 I just find it amazing that three years from this revelation, we will enter Canada. Canada becomes the first “foreign country” that we go to. But the brethren are speaking English in Canada, they convert John Taylor, who’s a British immigrant. This is [inaudible 00:30:06] who works with Brother Taylor. And then in Joseph’s lifetime, they go to French Polynesia, but not beyond that.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:30:18 Really in Joseph’s lifetime, here he’s giving a revelation that won’t be fulfilled, and I would argue is still in the process of being fulfilled. We have not gone into every language, every tongue, but look at what we’ve done. We mentioned at the outset that saints will be found in 14 languages or that the magazines are found in 100… What did you say, John? 140?

John Bytheway: 00:30:43 I think 48.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:30:43 Oh, 48?

John Bytheway: 00:30:44 They’re translating into 48 languages.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:30:46 Yeah. And we know that The Book of Mormon is found in several hundred languages. But the Lord seems to be suggesting that there is an importance connected with hearing in your own tongue. And I’m not sure what to make of this. I find it fascinating that the Lord is not satisfied with translation. He’s not saying, “Hey, the end goal here is just to translate these revelations into English, rather to make them available…” The Lord is not saying, “Let’s make these revelations available in English across the world.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:31:25 He is recognizing that there is a diversity of tongues and that diversity ought to be dignified. And that we, as a church, need to make an effort to let people hear the saving truth in their own native tongue. I find it a beautiful thing, it’s like 1,000 flowers bloom, that better to have the diversity of languages than to shoehorn everything into one language. Any thoughts on that?

John Bytheway: 00:32:01 Yeah. I like for missionaries in the MTC just to hear this and to know that, to feel like the Lord has a promise to keep here, he’s going to help you learn the language. And you may not know it until the moment you need it, but he’s going to help you learn the language because he made this kind of prophecy and promise and he’ll help you out. And it’s fun that you said French Polynesia, that’s where… My daughter’s in Tucson right now, waiting to go there eventually to the Tahiti Mission. I’m glad you mentioned that, that’s fun.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:32:34 Maybe the point I should make, again, they were speaking English there too that it would not be until 1849/50 when we went to the Sandwich Islands, which became Hawaii, that we actually started preaching in someone’s own tongue. So here that’s what? 17, 18 years from now, from this revelation before we actually start doing this, where we’re demanding now that the missionaries start learning the tongue. They didn’t go there and start teaching English and saying to the natives in the Sandwich Islands, “Look, you have to learn English or else.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:33:14 No. George Buchanan started translating The Book of Mormon into Hawaiian. And that’s a step we forget about that, that that’s actually a conscious step we had to make that we will come to you in your language, we’ll make an effort. Even if we butcher your language, we’re going to try and reach you in your own tongue.

Hank Smith: 00:33:34 There’s a moment in Acts 2 when these Galilean apostles start speaking all these different languages. And the people that are hearing it in their own language are amazed and marveled saying, “Aren’t these Galileans.” I’ve asked my students at BYU, how many of them have had that similar experience when they go to Japan, or they go to the Philippines, or they go somewhere and all of a sudden they start speaking the language and people are amazed and marveled saying, “Is this not an American? How is it possible that you’re speaking my language?”

Hank Smith: 00:34:12 It’s a sign of love. John, you would know more about this than I would. It’s a sign of, wow, you know my language.

John Bytheway: 00:34:24 Oh yeah. It creates a different space in between you, when you’re trying to speak in Tagalog to someone. I had someone, it’s never happened before or since, someone complimented my nose in Filipino when I was sitting on a jeepney and I heard what they were saying, and I turned in Filipino, I said, and all I said [foreign language 00:34:49] I said, “Thank you.” They were shocked that I knew what they were saying, but it immediately, we were friends because I had learned their language.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:35:01 Part of it is that it connotes so much hard work and it’s anyone who works that hard to learn a language, that proceeds whatever comes out of their mouth. So the message is, “I really cared enough about your culture to spend hours and hours and hours, hundreds of hours learning this.” And there’s something admirable in that. I think that conveys respect and it helps convey attention.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:35:35 Well, after the initial section about the priesthood keys and organizing The First Presidency, the revelation then turns back to Joseph and what he’s going to be doing. And the reason why there appears to be a summing up and then a new frontier being launched is that Joseph has been doing translating of the Bible for the last three years. That’s his daytime project, where he and Sidney primarily have been going through the scriptures, and making inspired revisions, and corrections to the text, and they’re finishing this work.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:36:12 And so now the question is for Joseph, what will he be doing from day-to-day? Is he just going to be speaking in the name of the Lord day after day? And what’s fascinating is not only what is said, but what isn’t said. So, I said, tongue in cheek, “Is he going to be speaking in the name of the Lord from day-to-day?” The answer is no. Which is to say the Doctrine and Covenants revelations that we have, the Lord, even in an ideal setting where He can instruct Joseph, He’s not asking Joseph to receive revelation day after day after day in thus sayeth the Lord form and ways.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:36:57 That is, he’s expecting the saints to use what they’ve been given from time to time, periodically, every few months, whatever it is, and to study those messages and to not be enamored with the new or what is breaking new ground all the time. Sometimes we anticipate the General Conference always has to have some new program.

Hank Smith: 00:37:27 Especially lately.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:37:29 And talking about addiction, that can be an addiction where you’re disappointed, you’re let down. You have a deflated mood if there isn’t some big announcement. And so what we get in verses 13, 14, 15, and so on, 16 is we have Joseph’s new life after he finishes the Bible translation, and his new life is like ours in some ways. He sets an order of a church or things we would recognize, let’s say that. Verse 15, the Lord says, “He’s to set in order the churches, and study, and learn, and become acquainted with our good books.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:38:15 I find that verse, verse 15, the reason I read it is I find it very profound that A, Joseph is asked to spend his discretionary time learning. Look at the ways it’s mentioned, study, learn, become acquainted with, and then a series of direct objects, good books, languages, tongues, people. It suggests that study of the scriptures, as much as we would like to sit around all afternoon talking about the scriptures, it’s not sufficient.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:38:55 The Lord is not telling Joseph, “Hey, I want you to just study the revelations.” No, all good books. And that if you study all good books, that this can be useful in building the kingdom. We go back to Frederick Williams and his business experience that this can be an asset. It doesn’t have to be a deficit. Dallin Oaks studies the law, it can be an asset to building the kingdom. And so whatever we read, what we study, becoming acquainted with cultures and people, that that can all be acquisitioned to the use of building the church.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:39:38 Now, we could have a different discussion about how that actually happens. How is that useful if you study all these things? Even if you don’t go on a mission, let’s say, if you study a certain tongue and then you get called to that mission, of course, that’s useful. How is it useful to study the classics? How does that broaden your perspective? How does that help you to become a better young women leader or a better minister?

John Bytheway: 00:40:04 Absolutely.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:40:05 We get to sit and ponder this first, what are the implications of it? But I find, again, the fact that the Lord’s prophet is asked to do this, it should not be beneath us to do it. I’m reminded of something that I heard Henry Eyring say at the time that President Hinckley was alive. He said, “I just got out of a meeting with President Hinckley. And if you could only see him, do you know, he read seven newspapers this morning?” Seven. Henry Eyring said, “The prophet starts his day every morning by reading seven newspapers.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:40:44 Now, we don’t want to heap a guilt complex on the rest of us if we don’t read one newspaper. That’s not what I’m trying to do here. I’m just trying to say if the prophet is asked and does, in the case of President Hinckley, consume information and become acquainted with good books and good writings, then what about the rest of us? I think if the prophet can do it, the rest of us needs to do it, at least as much.

Hank Smith: 00:41:16 And it’s a never ending supply. When the Lord says, “Be acquainted with good books, languages, tongues, and people,” you’ve got a lifetime right there in that one verse, a lifetime of study. Which is why I think he says in 18, “Set in order your houses. Keep slothfulness far from you. I’ve given you a lifetime job here of study, good books, languages, tongues, and people.” In my house, we like to watch documentaries about nature because it’s so fascinating and fun to watch, and I find that my kids love it.

Hank Smith: 00:41:52 Even more so than some of the entertaining things that are on, they love learning about the earth, nature, and wildlife, and it’s fun to watch. It really is.

John Bytheway: 00:42:07 I’m reminded of, is it Mark Twain who said, “He, who does not read good books has no advantage over he who can’t read at all,” or something like that? And so-

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:42:21 I remember that one.

John Bytheway: 00:42:22 “Who does not read good books has no advantage of someone who can’t read at all.” And so I liked that it doesn’t just say read books, but read good books. And then in section eight, we have out of the best books and there’s so much out there. And Hank, if we can help our kids and other people be excited about learning something new-

Hank Smith: 00:42:42 John and I trade good books all the time. “Have you read this? Have you… Oh, you’ll love it.” Because it really does, I don’t know. It changes you.

John Bytheway: 00:42:51 And this isn’t the first time we’ve heard that counsel, it’s about study about countries. I like the one, countries and kingdoms and The Wars and the Perplexities of Nations, I think that’s a great admonition too.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:43:04 And I think the difference here… This has echoes of D&C 88, but the difference is there in D&C 88, the counsel seemed to be general-

John Bytheway: 00:43:15 This is for Joseph Smith, right?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:43:15 … or to the students. This is for Joseph, right. And I think that’s worth pondering. If again, the highest of all should be doing this, then what about the lesser? We tend to think of God tutoring Joseph, and telling him all these things that the rest of us don’t know. But here the Lord is saying, “Well, on top of what I’m going to tell you, because you’re the prophet, you still need to put in the work.” And even the adjective changes, John. In D&C 88, it was the best books, and now it’s good books.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:43:51 I hope you can see why I said that D&C 90 is a gem, even though it’s often overlooked. I find it to be a very profound section.

Hank Smith: 00:44:01 It is. It has implications for us today, multiple implications for how The First Presidency works, how presidencies work, and then also what we should be doing with our time. Something happens in verse 28 that doesn’t often happen here in the and Covenants. And that is, a woman is named. Her full name, “Verily, I say unto you, it is my will that my hand made Vienna Jaques…” I would say Jaques. Right, John? Jaques [inaudible 00:44:33].

John Bytheway: 00:44:32 Jacques.

Hank Smith: 00:44:34 “Vienna Jaques should receive money to bear expenses and go up to the land of Zion.” And if you go to the Come Follow Me manual, they have a little biography of her. We spoke of biographies earlier. And it just says she meets the missionaries in 1831. It sounds like she’s very wealthy. She continues with the church, Kirtland and eventually goes to the Salt Lake valley where she lives until she is 96. I don’t know. I don’t know why the Lord names her by name, but I like that he does and I like her example of enduring to the end. Not a lot of people see 96, especially in this time period.

Hank Smith: 00:45:23 All right. Let’s move to section 91. It’s short. It’s on something that I’m sure most listeners have heard of called the Apocrypha. But I think that we would benefit from knowing what the Apocrypha is and why it shows up in the Doctrine and Covenants. Jed?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:45:39 I mentioned earlier that Joseph was just finishing up his task for the last three years of translating the Bible. And the Bible as most Protestants understood it at that time, had additional books in it that are not found in the KJV, not found in our LDS edition. There’s about 12 or 14 books that were between the Old Testament and the New Testament that were found in every Catholic Bible, Protestant Bible. Sometimes they were in there, sometimes they weren’t. In Joseph’s Bible that he was using for his translation, we actually know the edition is… Cooperstown, New York is where it was produced, it happened to have these books.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:46:32 And the question is, they’re not part of the Old Testament, they’re not part of the New. What do we do with them? Should I translate them? Should I correct them? Should I have these inspired revisions? And so the Lord is now answering this question. This is one of those revelations that is based on an intellectual question, not a behavioral correction like we had in D&C 89. And the answer is that there are many things true in the Apocrypha, but there are many things that are not true, and you have no need of translating.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:47:12 The practical answer is just, “Okay, Joseph, you’re done with the translation, you’re good to go.” But there are a few truths here that I think are worth mentioning. One is the revelation, this is back to the nature of revelation, which we talked about with 89. The revelation is an ongoing conversation. It’s not something where you just receive a revelation, period, end of story. We know that the Lord commanded Joseph to translate, and then he proceeds to do it.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:47:48 But at the time that the command was given the Lord is not saying, “But when you get to the Apocrypha at the end, you don’t need to worry about that.” Nor does the question appear in Joseph’s mind when he starts the translation in 1830. It comes three years later. And so what does this teach us? Well, it teaches us that we can have a conversation with the Lord that has a period of time where we don’t have the question at the time, but then the question emerges later on and that’s okay.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:48:23 It’s interesting, he says, “The Apocrypha is still for the benefit.” If you look at verse five. You can obtain benefit from reading the Apocrypha, and yet he’s just said earlier in the revelation, it has some falsehood. So by implication, it means that you can receive benefit from reading a book that has some falsehoods. On what condition? There are two conditions.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:48:51 One is the book has to have truth in it. Otherwise, why would you read it? You don’t want to read something that’s just filled with falsehoods. But the important point is that something John just mentioned, you have to have the Spirit to enlighten your understanding. And if you have the Spirit with you, you can discern what is true from what is false. Now, I think this is a principle that can be applied to all forms of media, not just books. No, we don’t read the Apocrypha today, most of us don’t read it.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:49:28 I agree with the Lord here, that there appears to be some things that are uninspired in the Apocrypha. But you can apply the same principle to media consumption, to movies, social media. In other words, let’s apply it to politics. I know I’m venturing into dangerous ground here, but let’s say you’re reading a Facebook post from someone who is a friend, let’s say they’re a ward member, and you don’t agree with the post. The question is, can you find truth? Is it all false because you just disagree or have a different party? Or can you find something lovely of good reporter praiseworthy in what they say?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:50:18 It tells me that someone can be speaking something that is not true, not something you like, but you can still find something decorous. That those two are not exclusive categories. It’s not oil and water. They can be in the same post. They can be in the same book. They can be in the same text, whatever it is. Maybe back to your point, Hank, about positivity, the Lord is very positive at the end of revelations. Could we be more positive in the way we approach truth and falsity in the messages that we receive?

Hank Smith: 00:51:00 And I really like what you said there. You point out that the Lord says, “There’s a lot of things in there that aren’t true, but if you read it, you’ll obtain some benefit from it.” And if we take that same principle into our media consumption, not just politics, but looking for the praiseworthy, looking for the truth, he says, “The Spirit will manifest the truth,” in verse four. “You can trust that. That’s-

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:51:27 Now, let me go a step further, Hank, with what you’re saying. We quote Galatians. What is the Spirit? The Spirit is love, peace-

Hank Smith: 00:51:39 Long suffering.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:51:40 … long suffering, patience. And so that gives us a clue to… If the Spirit is going to help us to gain benefit from something, we should couch our responses in the fruits of the Spirit. So it’s not just looking for the positive, it’s finding… What am I trying to say here? It’s approaching that thing that could be offensive to us, let’s say it’s a post and saying, “I’m going to apply the fruit of the Spirit to my reading of that, love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness,” so on, “meekness.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:52:25 If we did that, it would transform the way we talk even as saints. And it could help rejuvenate the world. I’m not pie in the sky believer that we’re going to transform the internet, but there’s so much harshness, so much vitriol, so much bitterness that could be avoided if we applied instruction here, to approach things that you don’t agree with by the Spirit, which I take to mean by the fruit of the Spirit.

Hank Smith: 00:52:56 Yeah. Looking for that, which is praiseworthy. Looking for that-

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:53:01 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:53:01 … which is true, of good report. I really like that. I like how-

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:53:07 Letting the false, the things that are not true, the interpolations by the hands of man. Think of all the messages that are written by the hand of man today on social media that we don’t agree with. Well, just letting that slide off, so not making that the focus of how we respond. I’d like to mention something else, which goes back to verse five, the word enlightened. This is a very powerful word at this time, really going back to the 18th century. The enlightenment, we all know that word and have heard of that word.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:53:42 The cornerstone of the enlightenment is an assumption that all human beings are enlightened by reason. That there’s something reasonable about this. Now I question this when I look at my kids, but I think we’ve all… That every human being is enlightened by reason. And that if you can somehow cultivate that by education, or tap into that by good parenting, or whatever it may be, that you are bringing out the best of human kind.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:54:18 But notice that there’s nothing about reason, here. Here it’s, “Who so is enlightened by the…” Now, if you’re not a Latter-Day Saint and you didn’t know that you were reading a sacred text, you might fill that in with enlightened by the voice of reason or the spark of reason. But here it’s by the Spirit. Now I’ve seen in our own era a growth in the people who are relying on reason to assess spiritual truths. Now, I don’t want to discourage anyone who wants to use reason. I use reason discourse every day in what I do.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:55:04 And on some level, if you write about religious things, you’re writing using reason. But all too often, I think people set aside the Spirit as the arbiter of how to write or how to reason. And I find it noteworthy again, that the Lord is suggesting that if you don’t have the Spirit, you’re really not able to discern what is true in the Apocrypha from what is false. You can apply that to church history questions. We have a good many people in the church today that try and reason their way in or out of certain propositions.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:55:49 And to the exclusion of the Spirit, and the Spirit I’ve already defined, that what kind of Spirit are we talking about? Well, look, if we’re going to ascend to the Lord saying, “Love one another,” do we apply the same standard to the prophets? There’s a lot of criticism of the prophets, dead end living prophets. Well, why can’t we love the prophets by being more charitable towards them. This is what I’m saying. I think the underlying principle can be applied in many contexts.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:56:33 I mentioned media, it can be applied to church history questions. It can be applied to just the whole complex of how we assess information. Are we simply reasoning our way through, setting aside our religious training? Or are we incorporating our religious training and marrying it with wisdom or reason?

Hank Smith: 00:56:58 Yes. I love what you did with that section, because I didn’t know what would… I honestly didn’t know where we would go with this. But I think the principle that you found embedded in the idea of Joseph Smith asking about the Apocrypha can be a wonderful benefit as the Lord says here, “If you use the Spirit.” But he even says it in verse six, “If you’re not going to read it with the Spirit, there’s not going to be a benefit to you.” Dr. Woodworth, let me ask you a last question.

Hank Smith: 00:57:31 You are a historian. You’re a trained historian who has done incredible work. I think there’s a benefit that comes to our listeners when they hear someone who spends their life, their career in church history, which you have done, been mentored by the best of the best, and here you’re not just educated, but incredibly faithful and just radiate goodness. Tell me, what are your personal thoughts on Joseph Smith and the Restoration? What’s it done for you personally as you’ve made it your career?

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:58:17 Well, that is a great question. And first of all, thank you for the compliment. It’s been wonderful to be with you today. It’s hard for me to talk about Joseph Smith without talking about contemporary problems or ways of people consuming information about Joseph Smith today. And so, I’m going to start with the elephant in the room, which is polygamy. I feel that Joseph Smith in the information age has been compressed into something extremely narrow, which is simply plural marriage and how he went about practicing plural marriage. And to me it’s unfortunate for a number of reasons.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:59:14 One is that Joseph Smith’s doctrinal contribution to my life and to the church’s life is just immeasurable. And there’s so much that he did that is not accounted for in focusing on just one practice. I also tell people when they have a concern about plural marriage. I say, “Well, things are always difficult at the beginning. But by the Utah period, the church was able to figure out this practice, and for about 40 years, a generation and a half, or maybe two generations, we built a foundation that would have been impossible without this practice. Say what you will about the future.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 00:59:54 And I for one, I don’t think plural marriage as something that will be practiced in the heavens. I think of it is a useful principle to build up the kingdom when it was small. But you look at our current First Presidency today, none of them would be here were not for plural marriage. They’re products of it, and if you don’t like plural marriage as being a part of church, you would have to deal with partying with many people who we love, who have been instrumental in building up this church.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:00:34 Having said that, Joseph Smith gives me a story, a story to live my life by. The standard Christian narrative is, we don’t know why we’re born. We’re thrust here because of the mistake of Adam and Eve and we’re fallen creatures, and our destiny is to return to God and worship Him by praising Him around his throne as the angels do. That to me is not a satisfying narrative.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:01:05 The narrative that Joseph Smith gave us was that, “I came here as a child of our father in heaven. I lived with him before I was born, and that I accepted a plan for my growth and development in coming down here, exercising my agency. And that this life is meaningful because it gives me chances to grow and become like the father that sent me here. And that my ultimate destiny is to become as He is not to merely worship around His throne.”

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:01:38 And that narrative is given to us by the prophet Joseph Smith, so it gives my whole life meaning and understanding. I’m also touched by the fact that the God we worship is someone who has a heartbeat, who can understand me in my emotional anguish, who looks like me. And to me that is not a reductive principle. We’ve been accused of that. It is rather an ennobling principle that I can worship a being of whom I am of the same order. We’re of the same class, genus, whatever division you want to give here. And that too was given us by Joseph Smith.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:02:32 If I had been born into a Protestant faith, I would be worshiping a God without body parts and passions, and that’s hard to fathom. The new scripture that he gave us makes it impossible for me to accept the historical Jesus, someone who’s merely a great moral teacher. You read The Book of Mormon and the divinity of Christ is on virtually every page. And that clearly… It’s just such a powerful book and a Christ-centered book.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:03:12 And to me, I understand the arguments for why the book would be a 19th century production, but to me, they fall flat. Ultimately I think that the Lord has created a book, he’s given us a book where the evidence for and against the book is going to be compelling on either side. This is part the tests that we’ve all been given, that the fruit is meant to be enticing. And so the arguments to the opposite, the contrary argument is going to be enticing. That doesn’t mean it’s true. It’s going to be appealing. It’s going to be reasonable. It will be enticing, but it doesn’t mean it’s true.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:03:58 And so I look at The Book of Mormon in that way, where, yes, there are criticisms of the book, but they fall short. They don’t capture the power of the book and the inspiration of the book. I also love The Miraculous in our church, which really I look at as coming out of Joseph Smith’s own personal story. The fact that God writes on gold plates, has them preserved in the ground for hundreds of years, and then asks a young boy to translate them.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:04:29 To me, the whole world comes alive with that narrative. That it’s beautiful in its strangeness. But it says that God can intervene in the modern world, and that at any turn in my life, there can be a miraculous happening, there can be a gold plates type experience. Something maybe that has been preserved for me to change my life and to improve my life. I find that to be a profound part of our faith, and it saddens me that the Joseph Smith story is ridiculed.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:05:12 I think it’s much like Jesus coming out of Nazareth, being ridiculed. “What good can come out of Nazareth?” People just don’t understand who Joseph is, just like they don’t understand who the Messiah was. I find meaning in the priesthood keys that Joseph gave us. Just like the narrative of my life, having a story, a beginning, and a middle, and an end. It’s built around priesthood keys and the priesthood power that binds families together. I say that Joseph taught us that we’re part of a team of superheros.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:05:57 What I mean by that is when he received priesthood keys from prophets long gone, who everyone thought were gone and confined to the scriptures, and then they appear on the banks of the Susquehanna, suggests that prophets in eras past are all part of the same project. And so in that sense, they’re like superheroes who are working together on the same project, and they have the same passionate goals that we’re working for today.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:06:34 And that’s meaningful to me to realize that Christianity is not just something in the distant past, but rather it’s dispensational, and that there are periods of Christianity of the restored gospel. Or I should say that the eternal gospel that are all joined together into one. There’s more I could say. I think maybe I’ll end with one more idea, which is Joseph, I think teaches us that life is designed for our progression. I hinted at this at the beginning, but that we’re here to grow. We’re here fundamentally as intelligences.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:07:22 We’re not here as a creature. The Protestant discourse that I have studied in the 18th and 19th century even means are often called creatures. They’re no better than the beasts of the field. But Joseph taught us that we’re fundamentally intelligents, that we’re made of the same stuff that the Being we worship is made of. And that therefore the same principle of development for him is the same for us, namely from grace to grace, and from light to light, and from truth to truth.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:08:00 And that we can grow over time, we can grow into, if not perfection, we can aspire towards becoming better, becoming more like God. And that in the course of that aspiration, that we will become his children, begotten sons and daughters unto God. I find that narrative of ascent or progress to be extremely powerful and governing of my life. It inspires me to read, to study, to ask for forgiveness, to improve my life, to try and be a better person. I’m not only a fallen being, I am a fallen being, but I’m not just that. It’s not the core of who I am. The core of who I am is a divine son of our Father in heaven.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:09:02 I think all of that understanding is indebted to Joseph Smith. Without his doctrine, without his faithfulness in revealing the doctrines that the Lord gave to him, it’s hard for me to imagine who I would be as a person and how I would see life, how I would walk out the front door and see the world. It’s just impossible to fathom. For all of that, I am deeply grateful for him.

Hank Smith: 01:09:35 That was beautiful. It’s just absolutely wonderful. We’ve had such a great time today.

John Bytheway: 01:09:44 Exactly. A narrative of a saint, I’m part of a plan. A plan where I was there. There’s objective, there’s a destiny in mind. I don’t know, I hope our listeners realize as you’re talking, because you’ve helped me, all of our guests have helped us realize how much the Restoration gives us as far as our mission, our destiny, our purpose, and our relationship to God. And maybe sometimes we look at problems, but imagine what we would be without all of that understanding. You’ve done a great job in summarizing that right now, and thank you for that.

Hank Smith: 01:10:26 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 01:10:27 I love what you said, the prophets in the past are part of the same divine project. Oh, that’s good. That’s great. Wrote it down.

Hank Smith: 01:10:35 All the superheros working together.

Dr. Jed Woodwor…: 01:10:37 What church teaches that?

John Bytheway: 01:10:39 Part of the same divine project that is ongoing. I love it.

Hank Smith: 01:10:46 Well, thank you, Dr. Jed Woodworth for being with us today. You have been magnificent as your colleagues told us you would be. “The best of the best,” they all said and we were blessed to have you with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We want to thank our Executive Producer, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We love you both. And our amazing production crew. John, I say this every week, but it needs to be said every week that we have a team.

John Bytheway: 01:11:17 It does. Absolutely.

Hank Smith: 01:11:18 We have a team that puts this together for you. It’s not just John and I, I promise doing this. We want to thank David Perry, Lisa Spice, who we talked about earlier with her Diet Coke, Jamie Nielson, Kyle Nelson, Will Stoughton and Maria Hilton. And we hope you will join us next week on Follow Him.