John Bytheway: 00:00:00 Continue listening for part two with Dr. Joshua Matson, Romans 7 through 16.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 Fantastic, Josh, let’s keep going through chapter 8. What are we looking at next?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:00:11 Well, we’ve talked about being joint heirs with Christ in 8:17, but I want to focus on a part that doesn’t get emphasized much, which is the last part after the semicolon. So verse 17 in Romans 8, “If so be that we suffer with him that we may be also glorified together.” It says that salvation is a joint experience, and I remember sitting in the temple, hearing something similar to that in an endowment session, and thinking, why would the Lord want me to be connected with him and being able to receive the salvation? He’s done the work. I’m riding his coattails.

  00:00:49 But one of the things that we see throughout the New Testament are these different models of explaining what the Atonement is. So you have the redemption model, which is that we need to be bought back by the atonement of Jesus Christ. You have the substitution model where Jesus took all of our sins and experienced the consequences of them, and so he substituted himself for us. You have the expiation model, which is borrowing from the Old Testament sacrifices and the idea of a sacrifice covering our sins. That word kippur, to cover, that’s connected with the Atonement. We have the reconciliation model, which is the idea that the Atonement reconciles estranged people, us, with God.

  00:01:33 But a model that we don’t talk a lot about is here in verse 17, which is the participation model of salvation, is that we actually participate in that salvation, and it’s not that we do anything that Christ couldn’t do. It’s that we participate, and I love the words in Jesus Christ in The World of the New Testament, that great volume that was edited by a number of BYU professors. But when they describe this, they say, “In this model, Jesus shares the pains and suffering of his people who likewise are transformed by sharing in some way what Jesus experienced. If so be that we suffer with him, that we may be glorified together also. This model is particularly important for explaining the role of ordinances such as baptism in conveying the grace of Christ.”

  00:02:22 So why do we enter into covenants? Why do we participate in those things? Because we’re expected to help others, like Christ has helped us. We participate not because the ordinances or the works that we do do anything that Christ can’t do. It’s because we are participating in the work of salvation. And I think that’s so important for us to recognize that the Atonement, it covers everything, but God wants us to be faithful, as we talked about at the outset.

Hank Smith: 00:02:54 Yeah. He goes on, Josh, to talk about the sufferings of the present time. That’s verse 18. He says, yes, that’s part of our faith, is suffering with him. He says, “I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed within us.”

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:03:14 And that verse, Hank, is so good, and it reminds me of your discussion that you had with Dr. Dan Belnap where he used this when talking about the Atonement, is that Jesus Christ’s suffering, he went through it because of the fact that he knew that there would be glory in it for him and for us. And how much is the glory also part of the atoning sacrifice? I was really impressed with Dr. Belnap’s discussion about verse 18, and I think that was something that I really benefited from.

Hank Smith: 00:03:42 I really liked that episode as well with Dr. Belnap. I like them all. He seemed to connect us to the Savior in a wonderful way in suffering, and I think it fits with what Paul says in verse 31. “If God before us,” or if we’re on the same team as God, “who can be against us.” Or Joseph Smith changes, “Who can prevail against us?”

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:04:04 Prevail.

Hank Smith: 00:04:05 Once you become joint heirs with Christ and with this whole family, you’re on the winning side.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:04:11 And how important would that be to his audience? There were some people who are going to hear this for the first time from Phoebe, and they’re going to say, “I felt like my neighbor in the congregation was against me, but I can have faith to keep coming to church because Jesus is with me. He knows my heart.” It’s coming back to this context, and then Paul’s great words in verse 35, as you were talking about, “God being with us, who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or peril or sword?” No, none of those things can separate us from God. Why? Because verse 28, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.” So even those tribulations, not that God’s going to take them away from the righteous, but he can utilize even persecution, distress, nakedness, peril, and sword for our good if we trust in him.

John Bytheway: 00:05:08 Do we have any verses anywhere that say he’ll just take them away? That sounds nicer.

Hank Smith: 00:05:13 Yeah, I would like that.

John Bytheway: 00:05:14 Like swords and pestilence and famine and stuff. Yeah, I enjoy those as much as the next guy, but-

Hank Smith: 00:05:22 So Josh, tell us what’s in chapter 9.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:05:24 And so we’re going to take this idea that you’re all adopted, you’re all part of Christ, but Paul has got to go back and say, I need to explain some things. And we see it throughout the Old Testament that God emphasizes peculiarity of his covenant people, of covenant Israel, that because they were born into the covenant and they accepted the covenant through those ancient ordinances, the question that Paul is trying to answer right at the outset is, okay, so this is great and all, but we know that the Jewish people are God’s chosen people. So where do these Gentiles fit in those promises? So here in chapter 9, Paul is going to answer this question of those who may ask, wait, we were Jewish. We were promised that we were God’s peculiar and covenant people and that we had a specific destiny to fulfill. Where do these Gentiles fit into all of that?

  00:06:22 They’ve now joined the church. They’re now Christians, but where does that come in? And I love chapter 9. I could spend a whole day talking about it, and I’ve already talked a lot. But chapter 9 is really great because Paul takes scriptures from all walks of the Old Testament, from the Torah, from the Law, from the prophets, from the writings, and he shows time and time again that God has a plan and a purpose and a promise for the Gentiles. So while those who are of a Jewish heritage are saying, “No, no, no, we are the covenant people. We have promises,” Paul says, “No, look at the Scriptures. The Scriptures are talking about where I feel towards other nations. And you don’t have the right to be able to come in and say, ‘No, we are the chosen ones but not them,’ because God actually has time and time again in your Law talked about how important the Gentiles will be.”

  00:07:15 And I think it can all be summed up with verse 15, which is a quotation of Exodus 33:19. “For he saith to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.'” We are not those who should judge who is worthy of the covenant and who is not, and no matter their background, God has a role and a purpose for them. And so chapter 9 is just a plethora of quotations from the Old Testament that show that the Gentiles actually are promised holy people.

Hank Smith: 00:07:47 It’s a little persuasive essay using the book they know best.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:07:51 Absolutely. So again, when we know that that’s who his audience is, it helps us to be able to do that.

Hank Smith: 00:07:56 I really liked verse 24. “Even us whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.” Is he not the God of Jews and Gentiles? Wouldn’t you want your God to be that big?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:08:10 Yeah. So now we’re going to come to chapter 10, and we’re going to see that he’s going to continue to try and emphasize this need that what you did while you were under the old covenant, that is great and that’s fine. And that zeal, you need to use it as you’re following Jesus Christ. So in verse 2 of chapter 10, “For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God but not according to knowledge,” so when we’re talking about the Gentiles, they are also zealously trying to follow God in the best way that they know how. One of the most impactful lessons that I had while I was at the MTC preparing to serve a mission was when our MTC teacher sat down and said, “I want you all to know just how much God loves all of his children,” and she shared with us an experience she had in her mission where she learned with absolute certainty that God was not a respecter of persons, that people were trying to do the best that they could with the knowledge that they have. Going back to loving kindness, we treat people differently when we know that they’re trying their best.

  00:09:17 I think of my children. When I walk into a bedroom and I say, “Hey, have you cleaned your room,” and I walk in and I see their bed is not quite made the way that I would make it and their toys aren’t quite put away where I’d want them to be put away and they turn around and they look at me with triumph in their eyes and say, “Daddy, look, I did it,” how can I help but be proud of that? And the same thing is being said by Paul, and he’s trying to help everyone in Rome understand those who were Jewish, those who were Gentiles, they were doing the best that they could with the knowledge that they had.

  00:09:51 Now let’s come together. Let’s love one another because the things that we’re doing… He’s going to quote Moses in verse 8 of chapter 10. “For Moses describeth the righteousness which is in of the Law, that the man which doeth those things shall live by them.” You’re doing the best with what you have, and looking around at those in our congregations today, I think we can say something similar. Those who are sitting in church are doing the best that they can. How can we not help but be proud? But too often, we let the natural man take over and we try to judge and look at them through our lens rather than through God’s lens.

John Bytheway: 00:10:28 I went to get a haircut once. The woman who was giving me a haircut, I asked her where she lived and stuff and found out she was a member of the church and where she went to church. And she lived in my area, but her parents had served a mission in an inner city mission, and she said, “I love to go there. I am still there because, number one, I feel so needed and, number two, when people come, we’re just so glad to see them there. And I love that welcoming people there.” And it made me think about just my mission and how grateful we were that anybody came and just I’m so glad you’re here. And some people came in the Philippines with flip-flops and a T-shirt with a beer ad on it because that’s all they had, and we were so glad they were there. And so I like what you said about that. I love the mindset of just being so grateful that people are there, that they’re coming to worship and coming to take the sacrament table to hear about Jesus. How can we not help but be happy about that?

Hank Smith: 00:11:34 Yeah. I can see this theme that you’ve showed us, Josh, where Paul is continually trying to bring these two groups together. This is Romans 10:12: “For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” It sums up what he’s trying to do over and over with these Roman saints.

John Bytheway: 00:12:01 I was thinking as we read this, it reminds me a little bit of the parable of the laborers in the vineyard looking sideways. Who are they, and where do those guys come from? And how much do they get paid? And he’s got that challenge. For this, it’s different place, different country, different upbringing, but not to compare. There’s no difference. The Lord is over all.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:12:26 And I love that statement right there, the Lord over all. The word Lord there in the Greek, kyrios, would’ve meant something different to the Jewish congregation and the Gentile congregation. Kyrios is the word that’s used in the Greek translation for Jehovah in the Old Testament. This is the translation of Lord. And then for the Greek audience, this is something that would’ve been a word that you would use for a master, somebody who’s over a household. I’m so impressed at how Paul is balancing both of these congregations, and he’s using words that will mean something of importance to both of them. And he’s crafting his statement in such a way that, as verse 11 will say from the quotation of Isaiah 28:16, “Whosoever, or all who believe on him shall not be ashamed.” Anyone who does is welcome, and Paul’s able to craft this so well.

  00:13:19 And using my Dead Sea Scrolls background, this is Paul’s Pesher on all those verses that he had quoted in chapter 9. So this is where Paul’s going to say, I’m going to explain it now and what it means in our terms today, not just what it meant to those who originally wrote these texts in the Old Testament. So chapters 9 and 10 go really well together if you read them in that way.

Hank Smith: 00:13:39 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:13:40 So continuing on this idea that Paul is providing a commentary on all of these scriptures, Paul is going to move in chapter 11 and to do something for me that was most impactful of all of this. So he’s going to continue to quote those scriptures, and he’s going to continue to try and provide a commentary in 11:1-12. But I want to pick up in verse 13, so in verse 13 he says this: “For I speak to you Gentiles inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles. I magnify my office.” This idea that Paul views himself as an apostle to the Gentiles is repeated later in chapter 15. If you go to chapter 15 and connect this because it’s going to help them understand the rest of what’s going to happen in the rest of the chapter, so here in Romans 11:13 where he calls himself the apostle to the Gentiles and that he’s magnifying his office, if we cross-reference that to 15:9, he sees this.

  00:14:43 So Paul writes in Romans 15:9, “And that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written, for this cause, I will confess to among the Gentiles and sing unto thy name.” This is a quotation of Psalm 18:49, 50. I think Paul sees himself in that scripture. It is that Paul is reading Psalm 18:49, 50, or singing it because these are the hymns of ancient Judaism, and I wonder if he says, “Who is this scripture talking about?” It’s not unlike what happens with the three witnesses in the Book of Mormon. It is that as Joseph is translating, individuals like Martin Harris turn to him and say, “Joseph, who are these three witnesses? And if these witnesses are there, can I be one of them?” And I love that proactive approach to scripture. It is that Paul is reading, studying, participating in scripture, and then he’s saying, “Well, could this be a fulfillment? Could I fulfill this prophecy in my life? Could I live this out?” When he’s talking about magnifying his office, and this is me speaking as me the gospel according to Josh, but I wonder if Paul didn’t see that and say, “I want to do that.”

Hank Smith: 00:15:56 Josh, he almost flat out says, doesn’t he, in Romans 15:16? “That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.” I think you’re right on there.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:16:12 Yeah. And so for me, if I’m reading this today or if I’m having a discussion with students, I might say, “What prophecies in scripture do you want to help fulfill? What things that God wants to bring about do you want to be a part of? Because if God’s going to do it for Paul, if God’s going to do it for Martin Harris, why wouldn’t he do it for you?” And if we have righteous intentions, if it’s really to move the kingdom of God forward, not for our own self-aggrandizement, but God will want us to be part of that. And the whole section here is talking about foreordination, the idea that we’re foreordained to do a great work, and maybe part of that has to do with our own agency. What do we choose to want to accomplish? I think that that for me is so exciting, that we can read the scriptures in a new way by saying, “That’s a prophecy. I want to see it fulfilled. God, how can I do this?”

John Bytheway: 00:17:06 Reminds me of President Nelson’s call to gather Israel, and then to make it so simple, he said, “Anytime you do anything that helps anyone on either side of the veil, take a step toward making covenants with Christ, you are helping to gather Israel.” And all of us can participate in that. I love that you said that I can help make this come true. Another one comes to mind. Everyone will hear the gospel in their own tongue. Oh, I could maybe be a missionary, and I can try really hard to learn my language so they can hear the gospel in their own tongue.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:17:39 Or I can be President Nelson, and I can sit in a meeting with Spencer W. Kimball who asks if we’re prepared to take the gospel to China. And I can go home and learn Chinese. If there’s things that we need to do to prepare ourselves for that, I think Paul’s giving us a rallying cry. Go and do. Of your own volition, of your own choice, go and gather Israel in whichever way you see fit, what you can add and that you want to participate in. I think God wants to give us more of our wants than we sometimes allow him to participate in, and he’ll magnify us as we do it with an honest heart.

John Bytheway: 00:18:14 If you have desires to serve, you’re called to the work.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:18:17 The other part of Romans 11 that, especially for Latter-day Saints, is interesting is that we’re going to get a parable of an olive tree, very similar to what we see in Jacob chapter 5, grafting. Much shorter. Maybe this is the abridged version. When you get to Jacob 5 in your Book of Mormon study at some point, you say, let’s read the abridged version in Paul in Romans chapter 11. So Romans 11, in verse 16, he’s going to give a very similar discussion to that, that God has a vineyard, his people are part of that vineyard, and he wants to graft in healthy, vigorous, great branches into the tree of Israel, as it were. He talks about grafting this wild branch in verse 17 that the Jewish Christians immediately are going to say, “Oh, that’s the Gentiles. They’re wild. They’re not like us. They’re not tame. They’re wild.”

John Bytheway: 00:19:10 Wild.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:19:11 That’s where they’re at. But it’s fascinating as you look through this entire commentary that God’s chosen people are all there. If you look, there’s a word that’s used frequently in here, broken off. So you can see it in verse 17. You can see it again in verse 19. You can see it again in verse 20 where he talks about because of unbelief, they were broken off. Now, we might easily assign this to just say, oh, these are just the Jewish people who chose not to follow the Law. Or we might say this is just the Gentiles. But what I would like to propose today is that when we read this, we read it as this is anybody who feels broken off, again, coming back to Paul’s discussion of maybe falling off the covenant path.

  00:19:53 So the Greek word here is ekleipo, which means to be disconnected or bent but not severed. It is a branch that is still connected to the tree. When we’re talking about this branch being broken off, if we’re following the Greek word, it’s not completely broken off. It’s always connected to a certain extent, and the only word that’s used that gives us the idea of complete severing is in verse 22 and 24 where he uses a different word but one that’s closely related in Greek. The Greek word is ekkapto, and it means to be cut off. So there’s a difference between being broken off and being cut off. We cannot cut ourselves off from the tree of Israel. We can make choices, and those choices may lead to one in authority cutting us off, but the choices that we make… And we can’t just simply say, nope, I don’t want to be a part of it anymore. Someone with authority has to cut us off. We can’t break ourselves off.

  00:21:04 And that can apply to a Gentile Christian. That can apply to a Jewish Christian. But reading this and then even going to Jacob 5 and reading Jacob 5 through that lens again gives me this message that no one is too far gone. No one is forgotten, and no one is completely disconnected from the nourishing power as a branch to the vine, which is Jesus Christ. We are not beyond his reach, and knowing the language there helps out a little bit to really get an idea of this parable talking about no one is beyond the reach of the Savior.

  00:21:41 So after giving all of this parable, Paul is going to provide a quick commentary and say, I’m going to give you the meaning, unlike the Savior who usually gave the parable and said, okay, go figure it out for yourself, and there’s things we can figure out. Paul is going to say, nope, I’m just going to give you the meaning. I don’t want my words to be misinterpreted. And that’s part of the overarching theme that we haven’t talked about yet of Romans as well, is that there are rumors about what Paul is teaching among the Roman saints. So Paul wants to teach so clearly that he’s not misunderstood.

Hank Smith: 00:22:11 We saw that in the book of Acts a little bit, where people say he’s trying to destroy the Jewish way of life.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:22:17 So let’s speak so clearly that we’re not misunderstood. So I’m going to give you a parable, but I’m not going to give you permission to go out and do whatever you want with it. And so 25, “For I would not, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery lest you should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.” You don’t have a right to say that the tree is done. There is a time when the fullness of the Gentiles is going to add to this great tree of Israel, this olive tree of Israel. And so don’t say that it’s done because it’s not, and don’t think that your own interpretation, however you’re going to spin it, is going to be enough. God still has more work to do among you.

Hank Smith: 00:23:01 Fantastic.

John Bytheway: 00:23:02 That’s really interesting that we can be blinded by our thinking that we’re wise. Interesting way to put it. You’re wise in your own conceit, and that blindness in part has happened to Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:23:15 Yeah, I think so.

John Bytheway: 00:23:17 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:23:17 And I think another commentary for that, John, because your question is great, what is he trying to say here, is we can actually get a commentary again from Jacob. I wonder if Jacob and Paul maybe had some connection in the premortal life or something because I think Jacob gets to your exact point, John. In 2 Nephi 9:42, he says this: “And whoso knocketh to him will he open and the wise and the learned and that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning and their wisdom and their riches.” It’s not a knock about the Jewish Christians or the Gentile Christians being wise or using their philosophy and understanding. It’s if they’re using it to puff themselves up. That’s the qualification. So Paul’s trying to say, if you’re going to take my interpretation and puff yourself up, you’re going to be blinded by your own pride.

John Bytheway: 00:24:09 And it’s cool that we’re back in 2 Nephi 9 again, Jacob’s great sermon there because we were there before to be carnally minded, his death to be spiritually minded as life eternal, or Paul says, “Life in peace.”

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:24:20 Cool.

Hank Smith: 00:24:21 So is he talking to the Gentiles here? “For I would not, brethren,” Gentiles, “that you should be ignorant of,” the parable, lest you be really confident in your own opinions and become blind, but then he says, “Until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.” So I’m a little-

John Bytheway: 00:24:38 Is he talking to Jewish converts? That’s what I assume, Jewish converts to Christianity.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:24:43 Yeah. Hank and John, I’d actually say I think he’s talking to both. I think Paul is so exact with what he’s saying that if the audience is receiving this the right way, they’re going to ask the question that the apostles asked at the Last Supper. Lord, is it I? Is this rebuke to me, whether I’m a Gentile Christian or a Jewish Christian? Because I can see both groups in that statement. And I think it’s just a testimony to Paul’s writing and how the Spirit has enabled him to do this as he’s able to craft questions and statements that would pierce the hearts of both groups to help them to say, do I need to be a little bit better?

Hank Smith: 00:25:23 Yeah. And I think his little phrase, that you should not be wise in your own, it can just be applicable to everyone. Be careful that you’re not so sure of your opinions that you are blind to what maybe could influence your opinions.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:25:41 Yep. Again, don’t be carnally-minded, be spiritually-minded, and that theme continues to move forward, as Paul finishes out. The end of chapter 11 is the end of his doctrinal section, so everything that we’ve talked about so far is just the doctrine. Paul is not really talking application yet. That’s going to come in chapter 12 through the end of chapter 15, but here, it’s just the doctrine. I’m just trying to give you a level playing field that we’re all talking about the same doctrine as we’re moving forward. This is so important for the saints in Rome to understand. It is that I am all about this because, in verse 27, “For this is my covenant unto them when I shall take away their sins.” And again, you could point it to the Gentiles; you could point it to the Jewish converts. But I love Paul leaving it open for us to then reflect in our own day. What do I need to get away from because I’m part of the covenant? I’m part of God’s covenant people. He’ll take away my sins because of that covenant and because of the atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ, so what can I do to more fully receive it?

Hank Smith: 00:26:52 So, Josh, you’re saying these are two halves of our lesson here. Chapter 7 through 11, doctrine; chapter 12 introduces a new application of Paul?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:27:00 And so in all of Paul’s epistles, in the body, we get the distinction between the doctrine section and the application, or the hortatory, section. What we see is it actually even extends all the way back to chapter 5. So 5:1-11:36 is all doctrine. It’s the doctrine section. Now that we’re at chapter 12, so 12:1-15:13, this is going to be, okay, what is now expected of you? I’m going to give you some clear direction of how you should live a better life. I love the words of Richard Lloyd Anderson, who called this section, so Romans 12:1 through Romans 15:13, Paul’s Sermon on the Mount in the epistles. If we want to tether ourselves to something we’re a little more familiar with, what Paul is going to teach in these next little over three chapters is going to be similar to the Sermon on the Mount.

  00:27:56 How are you supposed to live? What does a Christian life look like and what is a Spirit-guided life going to be like if you’re going to follow Jesus Christ to his fullness? So in Richard Lloyd Anderson’s amazing work Understanding Paul, he calls this the Sermon on the Mount of the epistles. That work by Richard Anderson was so impactful to me when trying to understand the epistles, but it helps give us a little bit of clarity and help connect us to something that we maybe are a little more familiar with, Jesus’ teaching of the Sermon on the Mount. So now we can look at these chapters and say, okay, this is the go and do. What am I supposed to take from this? The doctrine was great, but now what’s the therefore what? What am I supposed to do because of what I understand now?

Hank Smith: 00:28:40 All right, I’m excited. Let’s move forward. Chapter 12.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:28:43 So in my Scriptures, one of the things that I do is whenever I come to something that is a do, a commandment, a good practice, I mark it in blue, and most of chapter 12, 13 and 14 are all blue highlights. And so we really could go anywhere we want to be able to just go through and say, okay, here we go. Here’s something that we should do. Here’s something else that I should do. Here’s one of the aspects that are important. We could talk of 100 things. For me, I think verse 15, though, in chapter 12 of Romans is the best because it relates to something that I personally have covenanted to do. So in Romans 12:15, Paul says, “Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.” And I know, Hank and John, you’ve been around long enough to know that that sounds an awful lot like the baptismal covenants in Mosiah 18:8, 9 where we usually say, “Mourn with those that mourn. Stand in comfort of those that need to stand in comfort.” But how cool is it that here’s Paul saying, “Rejoice with them that do rejoice.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:47 Hmm.

John Bytheway: 00:29:48 Mm-hmm.

Hank Smith: 00:29:49 A different take on it.

John Bytheway: 00:29:51 Yeah. Reminds me of Luke 15. “Rejoice with me. I found that which was lost.”

Hank Smith: 00:29:58 Yeah. Any other verses we wanted to mention, John, Josh?

John Bytheway: 00:30:01 I love verse 20. “If thine enemy hunger, feed him. If he thirst, give him drink.” This little line, “For in so doing, thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.” Why are you treating me so nicely? I’m your enemy. This is causing my scalp to burn. Right?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:30:21 John, I love that you brought that verse up because that’s actually a quote from the Proverbs. So the idea of heaping coals of fire on the head of an enemy comes from Proverbs 25:22, and it’s the image that a rise of shame is given when one gives kindness for unkindness. When one has chosen to do something good to someone who’s doing something unkind, they fill the shame rise to their heads, and they almost become flush because of it. Again, just so magnificent and is understanding of the Scriptures. But using Proverb 25:22 in this way would’ve resonated with those Jewish Christians especially. They would’ve said, “Oh, I’ve read that before. Oh, I guess in my old law I was supposed to treat those that were unkind to me with kindness. I was persecuted by Gentiles for being Jewish here in Rome, and I’ve been holding that against my neighbor who is sitting next to me during our church services. Maybe that old law did have something that was trying to teach me about what I’m supposed to do now.”

John Bytheway: 00:31:28 Great.

Hank Smith: 00:31:29 Yeah. Chapter 12 is just full of these. Like you said, Josh, it’s all blue. It’s full of these little what John calls sermons in a sentence. “Abhor that which is evil. Cleave to that which is good. Be kindly affectionate one to another with brotherly love. In honor, preferring one another. Don’t be lazy in business. Fervent in Spirit. Serving the Lord. Rejoice in hope. Patient in tribulation. Continuing instant in prayer.” And he keeps going, help the saints given to hospitality, bless them which persecute you, bless and curse not, and then that verse you shared, “Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that do weep.” Just line after line is Paul saying, yeah, you’re right. This is what you should do. Now that you understand the doctrine, here’s what should happen.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:32:19 Yeah, and I think of Elder Boyd K. Packer’s famous statement, “True doctrine understood changes attitudes and behaviors faster than the study of attitudes and behaviors.” That’s what Paul understood. I’m going to present you the doctrine. Now it’s easy for me to say this because now you understand the why. You understand that, and I think it’s really well summarized in verse 3. “For I say through the grace given unto me,” so remember that loving kindness. And maybe this is from Jesus. Maybe this is from others because, remember, Paul has just as much reason to be fearful of both Gentiles and Christians because of his background. So because of the loving kindness given unto me, “to every man that is among you … not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” So he’s saying, I’m not supposed to compare myself to you. It would be a terrible thing for me to compare myself to Hank and John. That’s not going to be helpful for me in my progression. So I just need to think soberly and say, what’s the measure that God has given me?

  00:33:24 Again, going back to that same rule of the community text from the Dead Sea Scrolls in 1 QS, column four, lines two through six, we read this: “Upon the earth, their operation are these. One enlighten a man’s mind, making straight before him the paths of true righteousness and causing his heart to fear the laws of God. The Spirit engenders humility, patience, abundant compassion, perpetual goodness, insight, understanding, and powerful wisdom resonating to each of God’s deeds. Sustained by his constant faithfulness, it engenders a spirit of knowledge in every plan of action, zealous for the laws of righteousness, holy in its thoughts, and steadfastness in purpose. This Spirit encourages pious compassion upon all who hold fast to truth and glorious purity combined with visceral hatred of impurity in its every guise. It results in a humble deportment allied with general discernment, concealing the truth that is the mysteries of knowledge.” The whole purpose of knowing something is to act in this way. If I know truth, it’s to act with compassion and understanding.

  00:34:34 The greatest advice I ever got from my doctor father, my PhD advisor at Florida State, is he said, “Josh, the best scholars in the world are those who are kindest to those who know least.” And the idea that he gave me, Matthew Goff, a wonderful individual, was, “Josh, always remember that you’re never above even the lowest scholar.” That was the advice he gave me when I wrote my very first review and I was way too harsh, and he said, “Be kind.” And that’s what the Law teaches us. We know the Law better. We recognize that we just simply need to be kinder. We need to love more.

Hank Smith: 00:35:13 Yeah. “Be of the same mind, one toward another.” That’s verse 16.

John Bytheway: 00:35:19 Oh, keep going. It’s exactly what you just said. “Condescend to men of low estate.” Be the same with those whether you’re in a group of super smart people or people of so-called low estate. I like that.

Hank Smith: 00:35:33 Yeah. “Be not wise in your own conceits,” meaning don’t-

John Bytheway: 00:35:37 There it is again.

Hank Smith: 00:35:38 Don’t think too highly of yourself. You’ll miss out on being able to help other people. John, you wanted to look at verse 21?

John Bytheway: 00:35:46 Yeah, just a great way to end. “Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.” A really good one to think of, or as you said earlier, Josh, it sounds like it’s written for our day. A lot of evil out there, but overcome evil with good.

Hank Smith: 00:36:01 Josh, does he continue doing this in chapter 13?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:36:04 So he’s going to continue to give some do’s, but he’s going to do it a little bit more generally. He’s going to give some application that’s important for us. If we look at verses 1 and 2 of chapter 13 in Romans, you might see that this sounds a lot like Article of Faith number 12. He says, “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers for there is no power but of God and the powers that are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinances of God, and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.” And so this sounds a lot like Article of Faith 12 about God instituting governments for the benefit of mankind, but there’s something really cool that he does here.

  00:36:48 Throughout this section when he talks about higher powers and the rulers, he uses words that are for civic or temporal leadership. So in these first few verses, he talks about being willing to submit ourselves to those who have civic or religious authority over us. This is important given the context because the Romans are a little suspicious of what Christians are going to do. There’s rumors floating around that Christians want to rise up in rebellion against Rome or they’re gathering together in secret to rebel, and so one of the things Paul is trying to do is say, no, we are obedient to our civic authorities, however they may be, because, as we learn from the Doctrine and Covenants, God is going to hold those individuals accountable for the way in which they lead. And so the counsel now comes, you need to be humble, but you need to be humble to those that have power over you. Whether that’s religious, secular, it doesn’t matter.

  00:37:51 And so there’s this element of civic duty in verses 1, 2, and 3, but then in verse 4, the word for minister here is diakonos, which is one of divine authority. So, “For he is the minister of God to thee for good.” We can find good in trying to be the best that we can. And in a world that we’re very quick to be critical of those that are leaders, and I don’t want to say that with the idea that we can’t be because there’s a necessity of that, but God is the one who ultimately is the one that those individuals will be accountable to. And if we get too caught up in being judge, jury, and executioner with every person that we encounter, we’re not going to live that kindness that chapter 12 was trying to emphasize.

Hank Smith: 00:38:43 Let me see if I can get this right. Chapter 13 is Paul saying, be subject to the government. Don’t resist the government. If you’re doing good, you won’t need to really fear the government because you’re doing good. It’s those who do evil, who break the laws basically, who should be afraid.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:39:02 Yep, that’s exactly what he’s saying when he gets to chapter 4. But again, I do love this idea in verse 5. “Wherefore you must need be subject not only for wrath, but also for conscious sake.” So you need to be subject not just because you don’t want to get in trouble, but you also want to have a clear conscience to say, I did everything that I was asked to do. The reason that this is an important discussion, we talked already about Rome and the idea that Rome had some suspicions of these Christians. We also still have Jewish Christians who are going to the synagogue, who are facing some contention with Jews in Rome because they’re starting to live their life differently. And the high priest is, well, should we really let you into the synagogue to worship because you’re resisting the things that we’re teaching. So the context helps us understand that this one is directly applicable to the time in which Paul is writing, but it’s also applicable for us that we might not know where we might be benefited by being humble and subjecting ourselves to that will because God may be able to use that for our benefit sometime down the road. So a lot of government and those in authority discussions will continue in Romans 13 all the way to verse 7. We’re going to talk about paying taxes, paying tributes, paying customs.

  00:40:22 The second half of chapter 13 starting in verse 9 is much more personal, and these will sound familiar to anybody who reads. “For this, thou shalt not commit adultery. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not covet. And if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.” So Paul is saying, I could go through all the Jewish laws again if you want me to, but really, I can sum it up with thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Now, we always think of that as the new commandment that Jesus gave on Maundy Thursday in the upper room, but it really wasn’t a new commandment because it was in the Law before. We get this in Leviticus 19:18 that that’s what we’re supposed to do. It really wasn’t something that wasn’t part of Jewish tradition. The great Jewish scholar and theologian Hillel, he actually said about that very statement, thou shalt love thy neighbor is thyself, “This is the whole Torah. The rest is commentary. Now go and learn.”

Hank Smith: 00:41:29 That’s great.

John Bytheway: 00:41:30 Yeah, I feel like that reminds me of Jesus saying, “On these two hang all the Law and the prophets.” So I could quote all of the commandments, but if you’ve got these two, all of the Law and the prophets hang on those. And I’ve always loved verse 12 because it’s a phrase that I don’t know if it’s anywhere else. “Let us therefore cast off the works of darkness. Let us put on the armor of light.” What a cool phrase, the armor of light. I really like that.

Hank Smith: 00:41:58 Sometimes it seems that Paul turns into a bit of a gospel pep talk, right, where he is really like… What does he say in verse 11? “It is high time for us to wake out of sleep,” time to get moving, time to get working.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:42:14 We should put that up above our bed. “It is high time to awake out of sleep.”

Hank Smith: 00:42:19 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:42:20 There’s your daily motivation. John, I love that you pointed us to verse 12. And if you look, you can actually see a dichotomy between darkness and light. This idea that you have the works of darkness and the armor of light, the theme of darkness and light is so prevalent throughout the Dead Sea Scrolls, that light and darkness. There’s a text called the War Scroll. And it sounds really, really cool, and it is. It’s about this cosmic battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness, and I wonder if Paul might not actually be aware of some of those traditions and that’s why he’s saying armor of light.

  00:42:58 Let me read you something from the War Scroll. This is one of the Dead Sea Scrolls that we found in Cave 1. It talks about this cosmic battle between the forces of light and the forces of darkness. But in column 15, line nine, it says this: “Turn back, nor flee from them, for they are the wicked congregation. All their deeds are in darkness. It is their desire, and they all have established themselves as a refuge of a lie. Their strength is as smoke that vanishes, and all their vast assembly is as chaff which blows away desolation.” So talking about that pep talk, you see that in 1QM in the War Scroll. And here, I like to think that maybe some of the Jewish individuals who have converted to Christianity, maybe they knew of that tradition, and so seeing armor of light, their thinking of the vivid imagery from this War Scroll that we found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Hank Smith: 00:43:52 I really like these chapters. It seems that chapters 12, 13, 14, 15 are maybe a little bit easier to understand, Josh, than 7, 8, 9. And you did a great job walking us through those, but all of a sudden it seems a little more refreshing maybe, that I’m not having to just really look at every verse and go, what does he mean? I’m trying to figure it out.

  00:44:16 Elder Marion D. Hanks way back in 1976 talked about these verses. He said, “All through the scriptures, the loftier expectation is expressed by the Lord in his apostles. Believe, repent, obey the doctrines, walk in the light of the Spirit, endure in faith, yes. But also, manifest your discipleship in civility, in gentility and tender compassion, in kindness and consideration, in patience and forbearance and refusal to condemn, in forgiveness and mercy. In the book of Romans we read that disciples are charged to be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love, to weep with them that weep. If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live peaceably with all men. Walk honestly. Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil of good.”

  00:45:09 Now he goes on, and he quotes a lot of Romans here. He said, “I think of a choice lady born with a severely handicapped body and wonderfully capacious and gracious spirit who, as she accepted an honor for her special contributions to other handicapped persons, spoke of an incident in her childhood.” So now Elder Hanks is quoting this woman and summarizing her story. “Playmates had called her names that reflected on her physical condition and caused her pain and tears. When she reached home, her father held her in his lap, in his big strong arms, and wept with her as he explained that he had anticipated that day and that it would be a crucial one for her and could be an opportune one if she would learn the lesson that could make her life fruitful and happy.”

  00:45:55 “‘Sweetheart,’ he said, ‘what the children said about you is true. But it wasn’t fair, and it wasn’t kind. You do have a hump on your back and some other serious problems, but that isn’t your fault. It isn’t your parents’ fault or your heavenly Father’s fault. It’s one of those things that happen in this yet imperfect world. If all your life you will be more fair and more kind to others than some of them may sometimes be to you, then you’ll be happy, and your life will be full and useful.’ ‘That,’ she said, ‘is what I have tried to do, just be more fair and kind to others than some of them have been to me.'” Isn’t that great?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:46:39 Mm. So good.

John Bytheway: 00:46:40 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:46:41 That’s such a perfect introduction that segues from chapter 13 to chapter 14 because we’ve talked about these things and what we should do. And now Paul is going to introduce this idea, and it’s going to go back to what we’ve talked about time and time again. He’s going to have these code names for individuals that he may have had in mind, but they’re coded in such a way that it could be any of the groups that we’ve talked about. So in Romans 14:1, he says, “Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believe that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.” So he introduces this idea of those who are weak in faith and that they should be received.

  00:47:24 So throughout the rest of what’s going to happen here in chapter 14 up to verse 13 and chapter 15, he’s going to talk about those who are weak should be supported by those who are strong in the church and those who are strong should support those who are weak in the church, very much akin to what we see in Doctrine and Covenants 84:106, which is, “He that is strong should take he that is weak in ministering and doing the work.” But we don’t know who the weak are, and we don’t know who the strong are. There are times where any of us are going to be weak, and there are other times where we are going to be strong. And the expectation is we receive help when we need it and we give help when we can give it. That is as an essence what the entire covenant that we make at baptism is, that we’re going to help each other. Well, if we all refuse help, if we all refuse to receive anything, then how can people give it and fulfill their covenant? And so in verse 1 where it says, “Receive ye,” that phrase is so important to me because in Greek, it’s not just to receive, but to bring in, to fetch, to take hold of.

  00:48:44 So when somebody comes and says, “I know you’re having a hard time. I’m here to help,” we cleave to that person. We hold tight to them. That is what Paul is trying to encourage, is that don’t always think of yourself as the strong one. It’s okay to be weak at times and to accept that help. I needed that lesson, so if I didn’t learn anything else from our discussion today or in preparation, it was I need to receive others when they’re offering themselves to help me.

John Bytheway: 00:49:17 Wow. Years ago, Michael McLean that has been on our podcast before, he made a little movie called Nora’s Christmas Gift. And I remember that she was this super woman who was serving everybody, doing everything for everybody, always involved and energetic and everything, and then her health went bad. I think she was losing her eyesight, and she ends up in the tabernacle and hearing them sing Joy to the World. And the phrase, “Let Earth receive her king,” for her, it meant it’s my time to learn how to receive, and that was a hard lesson for her. She’d always been the one who was giving and serving, and she had to learn how to accept help and receive. It was a good story because I think if we’re not there now, one day all of us will be in that place where we need to accept and receive charity from folks.

Hank Smith: 00:50:17 It seems, Josh, that Paul is saying, if there’s someone in your congregation that is weak in the faith, meaning… Maybe it’s weak in the faith Paul himself has been talking about. They just can’t quite work this out between Gentile Christians and Jewish Christians, and they’re still struggling. If there’s people still struggling, don’t argue with them these doubtful disputations. Don’t go in guns blazing, ready to judge his opinions and get in a debate with him because it sounds like in verse 2 he’s saying, some people have given up the Law of Moses entirely, they’ve been able to, that he may eat all things. Another, who is not quite convinced, maybe still is keeping those kosher laws, eateth herbs. And then he says, “We’re all God’s servants.” Verse 4, “Who art thou to judge God’s servant?” I really like that. Then you go over to verse 10. “Why do you judge your brother? Why do you set him at nought? You’re going to give account of yourself to God?” That’s in verse 12. So you want to fight over what you’re going to eat, verse 17, the kingdom of God is not just meat and drink. It’s not about what we eat and what we drink. It’s righteousness, peace, joy in the Holy Ghost. Did I get that right?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:51:33 You got it exactly right, Hank. He’s going to give some specific examples that would’ve related to both the Gentile and the Jewish Christians, but that’s exactly the point. Salvation isn’t going to care about whether you were right about an argument.

Hank Smith: 00:51:51 Yeah.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:51:51 At the judgment bar, God’s not going to ask how many arguments did you win with your neighbor or your brother or your in-law or anybody that way. That’s not what God is going to tally at the end. He’s going to tally whether or not we were willing to simply put that aside and to be persuaded and live unto the Lord, and if the Lord wants us to love one another, that’s what it is. And I love that you led us right up to verse 18. In the King James, it says, “For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God and approved of men.” In the Greek, maybe a better translation that I might suggest is, “Anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and esteemed of men.” And so that’s what it is. It’s not just doing the service. It’s not just trying to do that, but doing it in this way, not exalting yourself over another, not doing it for recognition and not thinking that you’re right and the other person’s wrong, but simply serving God in this way so that it’s righteousness, it brings peace, it brings joy. And then leads to 19, “Let us, therefore, follow after the things which make for peace.”

  00:52:59 And President Nelson’s most recent general conference address in April 2023, Peacemakers Wanted, that’s what Paul is talking about. Paul is saying, we want to be peacemakers. We want that peace to come. And I know we’ve done a lot of Book of Mormon cross-referencing. I wanted to try and make this as understandable for us who were a little more learned in the Book of Mormon, but in Mosiah 27:4, this really struck me. If we’re going to have peacemakers, that’s what they were trying to do in the new world anciently. And so here in Mosiah 27:4, “That they should no pride or haughtiness disturb their peace; that every man should esteem his neighbor as himself, laboring with their own hands for their support.” The people were committed to not let things destroy the peace that they wanted, and that’s what Paul is saying. Don’t let your meals disturb the peace. And in some ways, he’s saying, don’t go to church and eat something that might offend your neighbors sitting next to you.

Hank Smith: 00:54:01 Yeah. You can do that much. You can say, well, it might offend them. Even though it’s not necessarily wrong to do it, I’m not going to do it just so I don’t offend this person for whom Christ died.

John Bytheway: 00:54:17 It totally reminds me of Jesus with Peter. Peter: “Of whom did the kings of the earth pay tribute? Should we have to pay?” Jesus says, “No, we don’t have to but lest we should offend them.”

Hank Smith: 00:54:29 Yeah. We don’t want to offend them.

John Bytheway: 00:54:30 So why cause offense when you don’t have to?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:54:33 I think we know that. I think of my own life, and regrettably, maybe I want to join Paul and say I have my own mistakes and shortcomings. I haven’t been that way a lot. I love the fact that we can say that we’re not the same that we used to be. I remember distinctly, and maybe this is my way of confessing a little bit and maybe seeking forgiveness from those that I can’t in other ways, I was terrible as a mission companion in that regard. I knew a lot about the scriptures. I knew a lot about rules and regulations about what we should do, and I oftentimes wasn’t kind to my companions. I wasn’t one who was willing to love my brother. I was more concerned about doing the right thing in the way that it was outlined, whatever the cost, and if that meant leaving a companion in the dust because I wanted to be right instead of kind. It’s taken me a number of years to come to peace with those decisions.

  00:55:36 But I want to say with Paul, it’s happened. I know this isn’t a personal podcast, but that’s what I want to say. If there’s anyone in my past that I’ve offended because I thought I was right, that I thought I knew better, and that I argued vehemently because of that, I’m sorry. And I think that’s what Paul wants us to say and wants them to say to each other and say, I’m sorry, and let’s move forward. There are some things I know I can’t fix from my past, and I think that’s how some of them felt. But with Jesus Christ, we can move forward, and he can fix that which we cannot fix.

John Bytheway: 00:56:09 I think this is such a powerful lesson, Josh, that both you and Paul are teaching here. What would President Monson say? Don’t let a problem to be solved become more important than a person to be loved or a rule to be kept become more important than a person to be loved.

Hank Smith: 00:56:29 It reminds me of a great story that President Packer shared one time when I was… Actually, it was a regional conference I think, and he gave this example. He said he was in a ward, and a priest in the ward was really struggling giving the sacrament prayers. I think I’ve shared this before, John. And probably very nervous. You’ve got an apostle there, and he just could not say those prayers right. And he got to the third time, and he messed up the third time. And the bishop wanting to get the prayers right, of course, was going to stand up and go over to the table to tell him what he was missing. As the bishop stood up, President Packer put his hand on his knee, and he said, “I think the Lord knows what he’s trying to do.” And the bishop then looked at him and just nodded to the priest, and the priest looked relieved, like, oh, I’m not going to do that again. And it reminds me of this chapter where Paul is saying people are the most important part of this, these people for whom Christ died, verse 15.

John Bytheway: 00:57:37 Thank you for sharing that, Josh. I know that’s not easy, but I love that verse 15. The things which make for peace, that is the outcome that we want. It’s not that I will be proven to be right and you’ll be proven to be wrong or whatever. The outcome is peace that we want. I like that idea of focusing on, what am I trying to do here? Well, what is the outcome that I really want? And thanks for bringing up President Nelson’s talk there.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:58:05 As you said that, John, I just think of intentionality. Everything that we’ve studied today in Romans is meant to make people a little more intentional in what they do. I love the idea of, do I intentionally seek peace? Do I tell myself when I get in the car and drive down the freeway, I am not going to get contentious with anybody no matter what happens? And I think on the days that I intentionally do things like that, I don’t find myself falling into that carnal, natural man tendency to want to respond, but I keep myself spiritually-minded because I’ve already made up my mind what I’m going to do. So let’s intentionally choose to make peace with everyone that we interact with.

John Bytheway: 00:58:46 Awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:58:47 That’s fantastic.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 00:58:48 The rest of the epistle moves very quickly. It’s the summation of everything that’s been said. I could point out something that really hit me in chapter 15. In chapters 15 and 16, Paul is going to give five different titles for God. In 15:5, he calls him the God of patience. In 15:5, again, he’s going to call him the God of consolation. In 15:13, he’s going to call him the God of hope. In 15:15, he’s going to imply that he’s the God of grace by saying that the grace that has given me of God so that he’s a God of grace or, again, going back to the word that we should think of from the very beginning, charis, the God of loving kindness. And then last, in 16:20 as he’s finishing up, he calls him the God of peace. And so I just made this list because at the end of the day, when he is thinking of God, he’s thinking of him as patient, consoling, hopeful, graceful, and peaceful, and I love that he’s saying, if you really want to be like God, these are the things that you should exercise.

  01:00:06 At the end of the day, after everything that we’ve talked about, after everything I’ve written, God exemplifies these characteristics, and I want you to have those characteristics in your life as well. That’s what he is going to do throughout the end of these last two chapters. And then it ends in Romans 15:9-13. He comes straight out and says the destinies of the Jew and the Gentile are inextricably linked. You cannot separate the destiny of Jew and Gentile. You are intertwined. That’s what the future is going to hold. So are you going to get on board, or are you going to choose to stay away? And the God of patience, consolation, hope, grace, and peace wants you to join in, but he needs you to have those same characteristics with him.

Hank Smith: 01:00:54 Beautiful.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 01:00:55 So, Hank, as we’re concluding and we look at chapter 16, some of us meaning myself, we get to the end of this, and we hurry and rush through the end of the chapter or the book. We go, I’m about to finish Romans. Oh, it’s just a bunch of names, half of which I can’t say. One thing that I just really think is important to point out is that each and every one of these names exemplifies the fact and gives us a window into what the makeup of the congregation was in the Christian Church in Rome. So it’s a window to the social, ethnic, and gender diversity of the church. It’s an exemplification of 2 Nephi 26:33. That’s how I wrote it in my heading at chapter 16, that this is an invitation to all, male and female who were mentioned here. You get free and bond. Many of the names that you see in this list are names that would’ve been common for an enslaved person. And so you see free and slave. There are also ethnic markers that means that these people are from all over the Roman Empire, and so you’ve got those from various ethnic backgrounds.

  01:02:03 If we hurry and read through it, we might just think, oh, that’s nice, these people are cool. They’re getting a shout-out from Paul. But it’s not just that. This is the diversity of people that are in the church at Rome, and our church should look the exact same way. I’m partial to this. About two months ago, I had the opportunity to stand in a place called Conkria, which is on the east side away from Corinth. It was one of Corinth’s ancient ports, and the reason I bring that up is I just want to talk about verse 1 and 2 real quick in chapter 16. “I commend unto you Phoebe, our sister, which is a servant.” The word here is diakon, or where we get our word deacon, which is a servant of temporal things. And I love that when I think about our deacons and the Aaronic priesthood. The primary purpose of the Aaronic priesthood is to preside in temporal matters. For Phoebe to have this name of a deacon as a servant of the church, which is at Conkria.

  01:03:02 In April, my wife and I had the opportunity to visit Conkria. All that’s left there is a little bit of an ancient port and a harbor, but my wife and I had the opportunity to sit there and talk about Phoebe. And I think it’s important to recognize the contribution that she had. She probably received this epistle in Corinth and went to the port at Conkria and got on a ship in Conkria and sailed to Rome. Think of all that personal effort to get this letter to these Roman saints, not knowing how they would receive it, not knowing how she would be received given the cultural and social standing of women in that time. But for Paul to come out and say, “I commend you, Phoebe. Listen to what she has to say. She’s going to bring this to you. She indeed is a servant of the church. She is one who has authority to say this,” too often when we study the New Testament or the scriptures in general, women get pushed to the margins. And here, Phoebe, I just want to bring her to the center and show that she played an integral role in all of this taking place.

Hank Smith: 01:04:06 That’s fantastic, Josh. I’m grateful that you did that, that you pointed out Phoebe to us. And if you didn’t know a little bit about what Paul was saying about her delivering this epistle, you would just read that verse and miss it completely. You’ve walked us through some incredible chapters, some difficult chapters. The application was wonderful. What do you hope our listeners, Josh, get out of your lesson today, these chapters today?

Dr. Joshua Matson: 01:04:36 I hope that first and foremost that we’ll see that at the center of all of this is our Savior Jesus Christ. It’s because of his atoning sacrifice that we are able to be saved in any capacity. So if we’ve missed the Savior in our discussion, which I don’t think that we have, we can very clearly see that the Savior is at the center of everything that we do, and because the Savior is at the center of everything that we do, we should do it as he does it. I hope that we come away from this with a desire to be a little more kind and to be a little more accepting and compassionate, whether it’s the person on the road that we drive that maybe doesn’t have the gospel in their life or any religion. Maybe it’s our neighbor who believes differently than we do.

  01:05:22 We can still join together as one, whether they’re in the church or out of the church. That’s what Paul is ultimately saying, is our destinies in the end are inextricably linked. And whether we have the law or we don’t have the law, talking now about the law of Christ and the new and everlasting covenant, there’s a place for all of us together, and I hope that we walk away saying, I’m going to be a little bit better at loving and following the example of the Savior to love my neighbors as myself. And that will help me to walk with this spirit, to be able to do what God would have me do.

John Bytheway: 01:05:55 That was great. It also helps me see the challenges Paul had to deal with, how he taught them so beautifully. Thank you so much for being with us.

Hank Smith: 01:06:05 Just really wonderful, Josh. I am looking over these chapters saying I’ve got a lot to go back and understand, but I feel like you’ve given me such a good foundation to build on. Thank you for being here with us today, Josh, Dr. Matson.

Dr. Joshua Matson: 01:06:23 An absolute pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Hank Smith: 01:06:26 We love having you. We want to thank Dr. Josh Matson for being with us today. Incredible guest. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen, and we always remember our founder, Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll join us next week as we start a new book, 1 Corinthians, on Follow Him.

John Bytheway: 01:06:47 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. That’s followhim.co. You can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on our Facebook and Instagram accounts. All of this is absolutely free, and we’d love for you to share it with your family and friends. We’d like to reach more of those who are searching for help with their Come, Follow Me Study. If you could subscribe to rate, review, and comment on the podcast, that will make us easier to find.

  01:07:14 We’ve just completed a new project we think you’ll love. If you would like short and powerful quotes and insights from all of our Old Testament episodes, join our mailing list on our website, followhim.co, and we will email you a PDF of the first three chapters of our new book, Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. If you enjoyed our guests on the podcast last year as much as we did, we think you’ll love this new collection. Of course, none of this could happen without our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, Ariel Cuadra, and Annabelle Sorensen. We also love hearing from you, our friends and listeners.

Tisha Petit: 01:07:53 Hi. My name is Tisha Petit, and I have such a love for the Follow Him podcast. It’s impossible to count the ways that this podcast has changed my life, but I have such a love for the scriptures. And for the first time in a long time, I am able to delve so much deeper, and I’m able to learn so much more, not just about the scriptures themselves, but about the background, about the culture. And it has been such an amazing experience. I feel like I’m in college again, and I can take what I’m learning back to my kids, my family. Another thing that this podcast has done for me is it has inspired me and helped me to realize how much I love teaching the gospel. I didn’t major in teaching seminary, but I would like to go back and teach seminary and teach these things that I have learned to other kids and teenagers, and I just love, love the podcast. I love Hank and John, and I love the people that are on week to week helping us all learn and understand more and strengthening my testimony of Jesus Christ.