John Bytheway: 00:00:00 Welcome to a continuing discussion of Section 49 and section 50 with Dr. Lili Anderson. Let’s now move to Section 50, and this is a revelation about manifestations of different spirits. And what is happening here that leads Joseph Smith to receiving this one?

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:00:21 Basically, it’s what it says right here in the heading, that there were quite a few manifestations that were happening to members of the Church. And as it says, so-called spiritual phenomena were not uncommon among the members, some of whom claim to be receiving visions and revelations. We’ve talked about how the Church began at a time of spiritual excitement. As we’ve talked about so many of these individuals who become significant players in the Restoration, they were seekers, they knew the Bible well, they understood about the Spirit, they sought those gifts. So it seems like there was a pretty high level of understanding of how the spirit can operate and manifest in different gifts and so on. And so there was a real sensitivity to it, maybe even a… Well, in fact, undoubtedly, a desire for those things. A desire to see those manifestations in their individual lives.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:01:14 Now emotion and the spirit can be confused. So I remember Elder Scott [inaudible 00:01:23] said something once in [General] Conference. I don’t remember the speech, but he said, “Sometimes strong emotion can be mistaken for the spirit.” And I was like, “Thank you for saying that.” Because I’ve seen that a lot in my own life and in my practice. So we have to be cautious about emotion. And I think that this Section, “Oh my goodness, it’s a true favorite of mine.” I hate to say that because all scriptures have amazing meaning and I have so many favorites, but this is a true favorite of mine, because there was so much clarification given about how the spirit works and how we can distinguish between emotion and the spirit. And I refer to this often. I actually refer to this section many times in the course of the work I do, and just with my own family and friends.

Hank Smith: 00:02:15 Lili, can I jump in here real quick?

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:02:17 Please.

Hank Smith: 00:02:18 All these members of the Church are coming in, John’s pointed out a number of times that no one’s been a member of the Church longer than 13 months at this point. Right?

John Bytheway: 00:02:26 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:02:27 You’re bringing in all sorts of different spiritual cultures. And so I love this quote, “The past is a foreign country.” This is LP Hartley, “The past is a foreign country. They do things differently there.” So when we read about some of these different spiritual phenomena, we shouldn’t go, “Well, were all the early members of the Church weird, because that doesn’t happen today.” But it was a pretty common thing for religiosity then to be kind of shown in very physical ways, getting up and moving and shouting and being taken over by the spirit.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:03:02 And we just talked about the Shakers who used to kind of ecstatic dance, and that was something that people saw and knew about. So yes, it was not as uncommon like you say, in this period of time. That said,” God gets very direct and interesting here in the first verses, which I think are so important.” Look at what He says here in verse six, “Woe unto them that are deceivers and hypocrites for thus saith, the Lord, I will bring them to judgment.” Now, look at this, “Hypocrites and deceivers behold, I say unto you”, verse seven, “there are hypocrites among you who have deceived some which has given the adversary power, but behold it shall be complained, reclaimed sorry, but the hypocrites shall be detected and shall be cut off either in life or in death, even as I will and woe unto them who are cut off from my church with the same row overcoming the world.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:03:58 Now, this is a pretty deep, deep correction. He is saying, let’s just be clear. Some of this stuff is made up. Like there are some of you who you are open to it. You want it, you recognize the gifts of the Spirit and the manifestations thereof, and that’s a wonderful thing. And as you said, Hank, it’s good to have a people who are… They have a fire lit in them, they’re seekers. And they do understand that there, there are miracles that can happen if we are in tune and open to them. And that is wonderful. But guess what enters in, you know, the Adversary is real and he uses anything and here he uses this kind of excitement. And why would people be hypocrites and deceivers for recognition? That’s always what it is, right? It’s for recognition and recognition is a dangerous, dangerous situation where people can start to measure themselves by how many likes they get or shares. Right. But anyway, back in this day.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:05:01 How people think, how this person is so spiritual, Oh, this person has all these gifts manifesting and we’ve had… I taught a class one year in adult religion in Las Vegas. It was really a great class on that Latter-day Prophets. And what a gift it was to me to study the lives of those men a little bit more in depth. And I was so interested in how many of them wrote clearly about their awareness of the need to avoid recognition. They talked about it and talked about what a trap it was. And I think that’s exactly what’s happening here. Is that this desire for fame or recognition or status, spiritual status to be so seen as so spiritual is a real trap. And it can turn you into a hypocrite and a deceiver. And that is so, anathema to the Lord.

John Bytheway: 00:05:56 I remember hearing the most interesting story when sister Sherry Dew was writing President Gordon B Hinckley’s biography, and that she took him a draft. And that president Hinckley was like, “Gordon Hinckley, Gordon Hinckley. I’m sick to death of reading about Gordon Hinckley. Adulation is poison. Adulation is poison.” And it’s like, well, who am I supposed to write about? It’s your biography? And I just loved that attitude that he didn’t… I guess he kind of felt, okay, people want to know who their Church leader is, but it was really uncomfortable for him.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:06:33 But he was the one President Hinckley who said that someone had come to him when he was first called and said the people of this church loved their leaders. And from now on, you’re going to hear all these really nice things about yourself. Don’t believe them. Remember?

John Bytheway: 00:06:47 Yeah.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:06:48 Don’t believe them. So they are aware and they, I think they fight against it.

Hank Smith: 00:06:52 That’s interesting having taught the New Testament for a decade now, I would think… You know, maybe before that, I would think the Lord didn’t like sin.

John Bytheway: 00:07:03 [crosstalk 00:07:03] hypocrisy.

Hank Smith: 00:07:05 It’s hypocrisy over and over. It’s a religious hypocrisy. Especially-

John Bytheway: 00:07:10 He is much harder on them than on sinners.

Hank Smith: 00:07:13 This reminds me, this whole first section reminds me of Matthew 23-

John Bytheway: 00:07:16 Scribes, Pharisees.

Hank Smith: 00:07:17 Hypocrites. You hypocrites. Man, it’s something we have to be… We all have to be careful of. Hypocrisy. I don’t think the Lord wants us reading this and going, “Oh, I know a few of those.” I think he wants us looking at ourselves saying, are we doing this in our own lives right. And I think that you’re right, Lili, you profess my name, but you want… You’re shining your light so that they may see your good works and glorify you.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:07:46 That’s right. And the gap between the real and the ideal is what we would say produces cognitive dissonance or noise in the system. In other words, the discomfort we feel when our real behavior doesn’t match up with our ideal behavior and that’s human, that is the journey of mortality. But there are two ways that Sociologists would say we could deal with that cognitive dissonance. One is the good way. And that’s to try to raise our real behavior to get closer up and down, our human journey steps forward, steps back. But eventually upward so that we can close the gap through improving ourselves, repenting, changing, becoming. But sometimes we also can dumb down the ideals and some people just say, “Well, you know what? I don’t think it’s that big a deal if I shop on Sunday.” So I’m not going to fail.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:08:41 I’m just going to lower my ideal, or I don’t think it’s that bad if I watched that movie or that bad if I use that language or whatever it is, dress that way. And you know, and so we lower… And that happens. You can see all around that people are kind of constantly in this situation of trying to reconcile their ideas with their real behavior. And of course, one way is so much better than the other it’s to improve ourselves and become. Now, what’s interesting is that I sound later on in my life, I saw a third way that I never heard in sociology discussions, but it was when I saw people, usually in the Church who would ramp up being a witness of their ideals. Like they would talk incessantly about how fervent their conversions were, how much they believe in the gospel, how everything was so important to them.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:09:30 And then if you got to know them better, sadly or heard the backstory sometimes maybe as a counselor or a neighbor or something, you would find that their real behavior was actually sinking. And maybe they had an addiction that they were dealing with or not dealing with. Or they had a terrible marriage that they were not acknowledging at all. But they wanted to maintain this fervor. And that really is the Pharisee. That’s the Pharisee. Where we take our ideals and we try to like polish them off and make them brighter than the neighbors and make it so evident to everybody that. Really, I’m so into this. I’m really not looking in the mirror and saying, “What lack I yet, and how can I be a humble follower of Jesus Christ and not compare myself with a neighbor and try to say, ‘Well, I’m better than that.'” But to realize that well, was it president [inaudible 00:10:23] bumper sticker there about.’” [crosstalk 00:10:25].

John Bytheway: 00:10:27 Sin differently than you do. I’m glad you’re talking about this slowly, because I’m afraid as a, as a former Bishop, I had people that would come in routinely and were deeply repentant, sorry for their sins and knew what the idea was and were struggling to live it. And I didn’t think of them as hypocrites. I’ve thought of them as sinners who are honestly striving. And so I think what we’re talking about as hypocrites were like the Scribes and Pharisees were outwardly like, I am keeping everything, but people that are acknowledging, Hey, I’m a sinner. I need the savior just as much as anybody. I think that takes them out of that category of a hypocrite and somebody who’s striving. Even if they are making the same mistakes repeatedly. Because I saw that as a Bishop and I was… I mean, they were trying so hard that I… They weren’t in that category. And I think it’s important that we say that.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:11:27 I think that’s a wonderful distinction because it’s a desire to just acknowledge that we’re all in this together. I have to remind many of my clients who sometimes feel really terrible about the things they’ve done. And sometimes they’ve done some pretty serious things that are separating them from God. But if they feel too distressed, I’m like, can we just review for a second without Jesus Christ? We’re all going to hell. Let’s just remember.

John Bytheway: 00:11:51 Let’s just make sure.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:11:53 Let’s just make sure please to make sure we’re all in this together. All of us fall short of the glory of God. Anyone who says he’s not a sinner, as a liar and the truth isn’t in him. We know those things. So we are on this together. We don’t need to posture or parade around our successes. Anyway it’s real life. And there’s a balance in there somewhere about not trying to discourage or just throw up all my sins in public. But at the same time, not trying to pretend that I’m without problems or that life is perfect in my house. That’s important. I think that another thing is just this idea of what we’re… You know, where are we going for recognition and it really needs to be to God alone. When we do… I mean, all of us have had opportunities to speak and in places where, where people come up and appreciate what we say, and that is a real gift and an opportunity. It’s a privilege.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:12:43 And I am so grateful for every opportunity to testify or a teacher share what I have learned. But you know what, I don’t forget where it comes from. And that has been a real help to me all along is to just want to pass that off and say, “You know what the scriptures are where this stuff comes from.” It’s the Spirit that taught you today. And I’m grateful I could be a part of that, but it wasn’t me. It wasn’t Lili Anderson who had the answers. It’s the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even with my clients. Sometimes they want to give me credit and I’m like, “You know what, it’s what you did when you left the office that changed your life. Don’t forget that. It’s not me. I know who the healer is. It’s not me. It’s the Savior.” So I think it’s just, he’s reminding us all through the scriptures. And as you mentioned, of course, in the New Testament, He really gives some scathing denunciations about hypocrites because that is not His way.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:13:34 It is about the honest, humble follower of Christ who recognizes that we are all falling short and glory of God, but we can approach Him through the savior who is mighty to save and all of us can be sufficient with Christ. I think it’s important also to recognize that the Lord is saying here that, He says, “There’ll be cut off whether in life or in death.” In other words, don’t worry about the timing. You know how many people have left the Church because of hypocrites. I mean, how many people get offended or dismayed because they see people who profess to do one thing and yet they do another and they have feet of clay and they’re just, “Oh my gosh, I can’t believe that. I can’t believe that person would serve in that calling. I can’t believe that person is… And I’m like, the Lord is really clear here. This is not your problem. This is my problem. And I’ve got it handled. And as I’ve told so many people, how often did the Savior warn that the wheat would grow with the tears? Constantly.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:14:35 So what do we think we live in a tear-free zone? Like our ward is tear free, or our stake is tear free or the Church’s tear free. What are we thinking? That’s not the way it is. The Lord has told us from the beginning, the wheat and the tears together. And then at the end, when Christ comes, that’s when he’s gonna bundle them up in the different prices and burn the tears. But not until then. And in the meantime, stop worrying about it. I mean, just like you said, hey, this isn’t for us to judge our neighbor. It’s for us to look in the mirror and say, “Lord, is it I, you know, do I need to be careful about what I’m doing? And if I’m too concerned about recognition or status or how I compare with the neighbors, or am I trying to put on a pose or pretend to be something that isn’t who I really am. So that’s the message.

Hank Smith: 00:15:23 It seems that the Lord is saying that Lili in verse nine, wherefore let every man I’m sure we’d add a woman here. Beware, lest he do that, which is not in truth and righteousness before me. He’s saying not every man beware, lest others are doing this. You look at yourself to see if you’re doing things in truth and righteousness before me.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:15:45 That’s the takeaway.

Hank Smith: 00:15:46 I’ve never really looked at the opening of this section, but he’s setting a very firm boundary. And then he’s saying, “Now you look at yourself to see if you are keeping the boundaries, not your neighbor.”

John Bytheway: 00:15:57 You just improved my scriptures dramatically Lili. I put that next to verse eight. The hypocrites are not your problem. They’re my problem. I will deal with them either in this life or the next.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:16:07 You could throw in a cross-reference to Section 112, which you’ll talk about in the future. So I’m not going to go there yet, but that’s a great cross-reference for anybody who wants to look that up,

John Bytheway: 00:16:17 You take care of your own… Weeds in your own garden and stop pointing out the weeds in other people’s gardens,

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:16:23 Exactly. There’s plenty in ours. And then it gets really good. Because this section just gets better. So what does he say as an answer now that he’s said, okay, some of these manifestations are just, they’re just people looking for attention, they’re even hypocrites and deceivers amongst them, but then he says, “Come, sayeth The Lord.” This is verse 10. “By the spirit, unto the Elders of His Church. And let us reason together. That ye may understand.” Okay, this is gold.” Let us reason together that ye may understand.” And then the Lord goes off on this understanding topic for a free versus. “Let us reason, even as a man reasoneth one with another face to face.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:17:04 Now, when a man reasoneth he is understood of man, because he reasons as a man, even so will I the Lord reason with you that you may understand.” He’s taking a minute here and he’s saying reasoning is about understanding. And I want you to understand I’m going to reason with you. Face-to-face just like a man would do it. Face-to-face and what’s the purpose of that reasoning. So we can get to a place of understanding. That’s the goal. In other words, it needs to make sense. This is so powerful. I’m just so excited. Every time I read it. Now, the verse 13, the Lord gets a little bit Socratic. You know, the Socratic method where he asks questions. “Wherefore I’ve Lord ask you this question unto, what were ye ordained?” Like? Let’s review. Why did I call you in the first place?

John Bytheway: 00:17:54 Seems like it seems like a really good teacher here. He says, “Okay, everybody stop. Let’s let’s start over.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:18:01 Let’s review.

John Bytheway: 00:18:01 Why are we here?

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:18:02 Back to basics. Here we go. And then he answers the question to preach my gospel by the Spirit. Now that’s what we’re talking about. The Spirit here. “Even the Comforter, which was sent forth to teach the truth.” The truth. Now He just spent three verses telling us that we need to reason so we can understand. It needs to make sense. The truth needs to make sense. That’s why I called you in the first place. So that you could teach by the Spirit–truth. And the truth better make sense. It has to be understood of man in order for it to be real truth. And then he says, then received these spirits, which he could not understand and receive them to be of God. And in this you’re justified.

John Bytheway: 00:18:51 Does this make sense to you?

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:18:52 Don’t go there. Are you kidding me? I ordained you to teach the truth and the truth needs to make sense. That’s why I reason with you, even as a man face-to -ace. So you can understand, and then you get all these manifestations and they don’t make any sense. And you think they’re coming from me. Don’t even go there. God is not a God of confusion. He’s a God of truth. And it makes sense. The gospel of Jesus Christ makes sense. That doesn’t mean we get every answer. As soon as we want it. It means that everything starts to fit into this grand design and adds to the design and it embellishes and it edifies. He uses that word later on. This is so exciting to me. Can you tell I’m very excited.

John Bytheway: 00:19:41 No, this is, this is wonderful stuff. I think the Lord is saying, “Look, I gave you a way to know if it was for me. You need to follow through with that. You should know.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:19:53 First think about it.

John Bytheway: 00:19:53 Yeah, you should’ve put these two things together and seen that this was not me.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:19:58 This couldn’t have been me because it didn’t make any sense. Now this is so important when it comes to receiving revelation. And that’s where I use this section a lot to try to make this point. That back in Section 9, where he was talking to [inaudible 00:20:11] about translating, remember, and he said, “You thought you could just ask.” No, you had to do what? Study it out in your mind and then pray for confirmation. Now I think that order is essential. Think about it first, reason. Can you come to a place of understanding with what has already been revealed? Do you remember? And I don’t have a reference on this, but Bruce R. McConkie once said that the Twelve are very careful about petitioning the Lord for new revelation and before they do so they go and do an exhaustive search and I’m sure their associates and admins do it too.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:20:45 But they look to see what the Lord already revealed before they come and say, “Oh, we need more information.” And that’s fascinating to me again. I think the Lord is saying, “Look, I’ve given you so much. Can you, can you think about it? Can you study it out in your mind? Can you do the math? Make the pro and con list before you come to me because I don’t need to instruct you in all things. And he said that it’s not me. That you should be commanded in all things. I gave you all this facility. I gave you the faculties of your mind and I’ve given you so much information. Use it, think about it, learn it, study it. See if you can come to a place of sense with it. Does it fit into what the Lord has already taught? And then if you need something more, of course ask and even our study of course can be prayerful and should be so that we can ask to be directed. To study and think about the right things when we’re making a decision.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:21:37 That’s what the Lord wants of us. He wants us to use this amazing brain that he has given us the good mind, the good information. Think about it and realize that real truth is reason. Truth is reason. If it doesn’t make sense, it’s probably not of me. Think about how often we’ll hear these stories. Not too often. I’m happy to say, but occasionally we’ll hear these stories about somebody who says, “You know, I was praying about whether or not I should buy and best make this big purchase. And I had a really good feeling about it. So I, I went ahead and I bought it, even though I really couldn’t afford it. And then I had to declare bankruptcy and it was repossessed, whatever. But I think the Lord wanted me to have you know, learn that lesson.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:22:14 And I’m like, “No, He didn’t.” That’s why the Prophet says “Live on less than you earn.” That’s why we have all this material about preparation and includes a good budget and thinking about it and doing the math. The Lord doesn’t want you to put your hand on hot stoves. So don’t blame Him for that and say that, “Well, I learned my lesson.” Okay, maybe you learn your lesson and God can make lemonade out of lemons, which is what He does, but he doesn’t want us to make stupid decisions. That’s why he says, “Study it out in your mind. Come let us reason together. Does it make sense? Does it fit into the revealed work that I’m giving you? That is truth. That is for your good, that it’s to avoid the pitfalls, the cliff edges, the hot stoves. If it doesn’t, don’t blame me for that and act like you’re being inspired.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:23:00 That’s not me. That’s your emotion getting in the way. And you think that every emotion you have is the Spirit, but it’s not. If it doesn’t fit your thinking, you should be really careful and suspect about it.” So here’s the story. I was working with a young woman once a long time ago. And she had had kind of a misspent youth and came from a pretty tough family. And hadn’t been… I mean, they were members, but not so you could tell. So, she learned the gospel very well and went through some tough times, but she wanted to get her life in order. So she was working with her Bishop and she actually was living with some really wonderful roommates and they were all good girls. And they all went to church together. They even had apartment prayer when they could. And the script reading, even sometimes. They were really supportive, good things.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:23:46 And she was having a great experience there moving forward. Then she came in to see me one day and she said, “I have this big decision to make and I can’t get an answer. I keep praying and praying. I just can’t get an answer.” I said, “Well, what’s going on?” And she said, well, a friend from my hometown is moving close by and she’s renting a place, but she absolutely has to have a roommate to split the rent with. She can’t afford it on her own. And my lease is actually coming up. So I wouldn’t be leaving my roommates in a tough spot. And there are lots of people that they would be happy to have come and replace me if that works out. So they’re open to my moving if I need to. And I would love to be with this friend. We’re like sisters, we’re so close and we have such great history together.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:24:29 But these roommates are so wonderful. I don’t know what to do. And I keep praying and praying and I can’t get an answer. And I said, “Well let me ask you a couple of questions.” I said is this friend of yours, a member of the Church? And she said, “Well you know, not really. And honestly that was enough right there, but I went on. I said”, so does she smoke? Drink, do pot? Yeah. Yeah. She does all those things sometimes. Does she have guys over? Yeah. Sometimes they stay over. I’m like,”Well, here’s another perspective. Why don’t you stop praying about it? Why don’t we just do the math because I’m pretty sure God has revealed his opinion on these subjects before. I’m pretty sure you don’t need a new revelation.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:25:20 But that’s where we come to a lot of times. And this is not an uncommon situation amongst our membership where we struggle to get new revelation about stuff. That’s kind of as plain as the nose on your face. If you actually sit down and make the [inaudible 00:25:34].

Hank Smith: 00:25:36 And talk to somebody else and go, “What do you think about this?” And they think, okay, I can, I can see why… Is it because people think they must be the exception or something because yeah. Things seem so obvious that why would you even need to pray about that? I’ve heard President Steven Lund, the General Young Men’s President say, “You’re wondering young men, whether you should go on a mission. Don’t even pray about it. Just go.” Kind of the same. The Lord has, has answered this before numerous times.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:26:13 And I do think that people do sometimes want to be the exception or they… We hear maybe some dramatic story about how they called somebody out of inactivity to be in this calling. And it worked out really well. And so they sort of liked the glamor of something that’s less logical or typical or less predictable. And while I certainly don’t limit the Lord and I know that sometimes those things absolutely can happen. I would really emphasize that they are by far, the exception rather than the rule. The Lord knows what he’s doing and he’s very consistent and logical about it. And sometimes we’re just looking for that kind of moment of glamor where it seems like, “Oh, this where it [inaudible 00:26:53].” In fact, I often refer to Nephi when I’m talking about this. Because the reason that God could ask Nephi to execute Laban and it wasn’t execution was not murder, but the reason he could even ask him was because Nephi was logical and he was consistently obedient.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:27:14 He didn’t go all over the place with his emotions. He was very rational about doing the things that he needed to do. “I know that the Lord giveth no commandment under the children of man save, he shall prepare a way.” So I’m going to do what the Lord says. That’s what I’m going to do. And he’s boringly consistent about it, which is a high bar. We should all be boringly consistent in our obedience to the Lord and what has already been revealed. And then God can say, “Okay, there’s something new here. There’s a higher law and this needs to happen.” And what does Nephai say? This is such a great example, because his first response is, “That doesn’t make any sense.”

Hank Smith: 00:27:51 “I’ve never done that before.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:27:54 That doesn’t fit. Because he’s thinking he’s not just going to go off the feeling he’s like, but that doesn’t make sense. It’s not.

Hank Smith: 00:28:02 Then he goes through that reasoning process. Yeah.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:28:05 Exactly. There’s another principle here. “Better that one man, should perish then. . . .”

Hank Smith: 00:28:11 How can they have the commandments? Yeah. How can these people have the commandments if I don’t-

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:28:16 Look at what would happen?

Hank Smith: 00:28:17 And he tried to kill us twice and yeah.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:28:19 Right. But it’s reason. It’s reason he’s working with Nephi because Nephi is logical about consistently obeying. And he’s not quick to say like, “Oh yeah, sure.” In fact, if he had asked [inaudible 00:28:33] to do that, they probably would’ve said, “Oh yeah, where’s the sword. I should’ve thought about it myself.” Because they were all over the board. You know, sometimes they’re obedient. And then the next minute they’re just totally… They’re just going after emotions. They’re swinging wide every time,

Hank Smith: 00:28:48 Lili I love this principle of… The idea is yes, you can be the exception because you never think of the exception.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:28:57 That’s right. You are so boringly consistent. And you know, I think that just to go back to my own experience there, I think I thought I was the exception when it came to motherhood, because I was really good in academics. What was my skill set? And I thought, well, so maybe being a mother at full-time is for other women who don’t have this particular gift. And I’m so ashamed that I ever felt that way. Because I really learned, and the Lord taught me. And I’m so grateful for that. That no, you’re not the exception. These things I say to one, I say to all, because they are the blessing. It’s the blessing of consistency. Be reasonable. Think it through. Why do we think we’re an exception? And I’ve been enormously blessed because I realized I wasn’t an exception. The default is the default. And yes, it doesn’t mean that the Lord can’t work with us once we are boringly consistent, but until we’re boringly consistent, why would he mess with somebody who’s already going off the rails anytime they have an urge. If you like throwing gasoline on the fire.

Hank Smith: 00:30:08 This is a very important principle, I think. Because the Lord does have exceptions. We would never say, “Oh yeah, there’s never exceptions.” I remember President Oaks saying at BYU, he said, “Yes, there’s exceptions. And if you think you’re an exception, please don’t write me a letter.” Then, “Hey, you that’s between you and the Lord.” But I love this principle of you can be the exception because you never are. That’s why it’s an exception. That’s because you’re always consistent.

John Bytheway: 00:30:35 I think Lili could probably tell us a hundred stories about, “Well logically, this guy is not good for me. He treats me like this, but maybe I can save him or rescue him. And so maybe I should go ahead with something.” That’s so illogical. Do you have some of those Lilly or vice versa. A guy saying, “I’m going to rescue this girl?”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:31:00 Oh my goodness. And I had to tell them, “You know what, that person already has a Savior, and it’s not you. They already have a Savior. Why don’t you get out of the way and let the Savior do His business. But you make a logical decision.” I used to have students that would come up to me at the Y… Anyway, that was such a delight to speak with those young people. But they’d come and say, “I’m dating this person.” And they check all these boxes and they’d go down a really good list, a thoughtful list about compatibilities. And of course, devotion to the gospel was first. And then even family. Whatever, all these wonderful things that they had discovered about each other through good reasoning, good talking, good reasoning, good exploration, studying it out in their minds.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:31:41 And then they’d say, but I just can’t get a confirmation. And I’d say, “You mean another confirmation? Didn’t you just give me one? But you have studied it out in your mind. And this is exactly what the Lord says to do. And you’ve been thoughtful and prayerful about your study and exploration, and you both feel this way.” Another. Anyway, it’s interesting how sometimes we get this romanticized version that it has to be… It has to be the swirling of winds or it has to be a voice, or it has to be an angel or have to have this burning. And as we know, president Oak said, if you have to have a burning [inaudible 00:32:17] feel the spirit then I’ve never had it, because-

Hank Smith: 00:32:17 I never had it.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:32:19 And I never have either. So I think that it’s kind of this romanticized idea versus like, come on, let’s think let’s be consistent and reasonable. Let’s use the brain God gave us and use the information. He has revealed His opinion on these topics again and again. We probably don’t need a new revelation on this. Let’s just be consistent. Then it goes on of course, into marvelous stuff. But that gem makes 50 a real favorite. But then he goes on and says, beautiful things. Verse 17, [inaudible 00:32:51] “I say unto you, he, that is ordained of me and sent forth to preach the word of truth by the comforter in the spirit of truth. . . preach it by the spirit of truth or some other way. And if it be by some other way, it is not of God.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:33:05 So, you know, he’s basically saying again, that, that the best teaching is always through the Spirit. You know, the Spirit is, is to confirm truth. And that’s what he asked Joseph Smith, right? And to what were you ordained? To preach my gospel by the spirit, even the comforter, which was sent forth to teach the truth. So it’s all connected here and he’s repeating this idea again and again. Let’s just remember that the Spirit is to confirm truth. And we know that that’s one of the Holy Ghost’s huge responsibilities, which is to manifest the truthfulness of all things. So we need to teach by the Spirit. And if you teach by the Spirit and someone receives by the Spirit, that’s ideal. Now we know that people can learn even from a bad lesson. Elder Scott gave a beautiful speech on that years ago, about how, if you’re tapped into the Spirit, you can learn in any situation. So the Spirit of truth can teach us, even if we’re not being taught necessarily by the Spirit of truth.

Hank Smith: 00:34:05 And the backstory here is these false Spirits. I don’t know what they were doing or saying, but here the Lord’s saying, did that Edify you?

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:34:14 That’s exactly right.

Hank Smith: 00:34:16 Yeah. There was some tendency among some of the members to say, I’m feeling the Spirit and kind of throw themselves on the floor, a shake about to stand up and scream or-

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:34:25 Speak in tongues.

Hank Smith: 00:34:26 To stand up and start yelling,

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:34:27 Speak in tongues but nobody could translate it because if you’re going to speak in tongues, there has to be somebody-

John Bytheway: 00:34:32 There has to be someone to hear it.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:34:33 Exactly, hear and translate so that it can edify and uplift, not just manifest some kind of woo.

Hank Smith: 00:34:42 Right. And it seems that maybe they thought, well, if that’s not happening, then that’s not… Nobody’s been taught. And he’s saying, no, no, no, it’s totally fine. I love this to be boringly consistent. It’s in fact, that’s probably the best one. We edify each other.

John Bytheway: 00:34:57 I bring up something that Hugh Nibley said once that I thought was so funny, he says you could pray to see an angel. All he’s going to do is quote scripture. So you might as well just read what you’ve already got. And that sounds like the boringly consistent part. We’ve got the message already. If we need some sort of strange manifestation. Well, in this case, strange cause they were doing, I mean, as we’ve read the backstory kind of strange things, and I love the clarity that the Lord brings here.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:35:25 It’s total clarity. And then this powerful verse, which has meant a ton to me in my life as well. And to many of us verse 24, “That which is of God is light. And he that received and continue within God receiveth more light and that light groweth, brighter and brighter until the perfect day.” And that’s kind of the whole enchilada right there. Receive light. Now of course, he says, you have to also continue in God. And what does that mean? That’s that boring consistency. You are consistent with that light. You bring your life into greater harmony with that ideal, with that new light that you’ve received. And then I can give you more and you’ll continue on this upward trajectory and have more and more light until the perfect day.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:36:15 And there’s so many good things that need to be kind of added to this. One of them is Luke 8. Because here’s the other side of the coin, right? The warning part, Luke 8:18, “Take heed therefore how ye here for whosoever, hath to him shall be given and whosoever half, not from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.” Or another place that’s maybe even a little more clear. 2 Nephi 28:30.

Hank Smith: 00:36:50 It’s in the footnotes. Yeah.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:36:52 It’s in the footnotes. Thank you. That’s right. “I will give it to the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept here little, there a little;  and blessed are those who harken unto my precepts, and lend an ear to my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom, for unto him that receiveth, I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.” It’s not static. The world is not static. Life is not static. We’re growing in light or we’re losing light. That’s what’s happening. And how do we receive and grow? We have to be boringly consistent about bringing our lives into consistency with the light. If that’s something that I… I heard in [General] Conference and it touched me and I felt like I should do more of that. Or I should do less of that.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:37:40 That was light. That was light. That the Spirit was confirming to us. This is another step for us individually to take. So how do I get more light? I have to listen to that prompting. I have to follow it. I have to change. And change doesn’t happen. As a counselor, people ask me all the time, “Do you really think people can change? Can a leopard change its spots, a tiger change its stripes?” And my answer is like, “Of course that’s what the Atonement is all about is the potential for change.” But that said, not that many people want to change because it’s really hard. We have to give up something to change. We get so comfortable with the way we are that by definition improvement means we’re going to be uncomfortable for awhile. We’re going to put ourselves into an unknown place where we haven’t really been before or colonized that territory before.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:38:32 And it’s uncomfortable. It feels weird. And it’s easy to rush back into the comfort zone. But if we want to receive more light, if we want to be in this opening up spiral of growing and light until that perfect date, we need to bring our lives into harmony with the light that we receive. Those promptings. Remember that story about President Monson when he was a young Bishop and he’s in this Stake meeting and he gets this prompting that he should go visit his brother in the hospital.

Hank Smith: 00:38:59 And he says, “No.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:39:00 “Yeah, I better stay till the Stake President is done speaking or whatever.” And then I think he does get up during the song or before the prayer or something. But he does wait a while before he leaves. And when he gets there, the brother just died asking for him. And it changed his whole life. He said, “Because now it’s like, if the Lord speaks, I need to be quick to obey.” And there’s something so important about that because God gives us this light, but it’s not going to… What does he say, the spirit shall not always strive with man. I’m giving you my best stuff. It’s light. And I am the light and the life of the world. This is me. And I’m giving this precious thing to you. And if you don’t pick it up and move forward with it, it’s going to be gone. And not that we should be terrified or fearful about some clock ticking somewhere, but there needs to be this alacrity.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:39:52 I like that word. This desire to move forward and say, “Boy, I’ve had that thought a few times. I really need to act on it. I need to move forward. I need to give that old behavior up. I need to stop. I need to move forward. I need to give that old behavior up. I need to stop that bad habit. I need to develop this good habit.” And then the light continues to grow, or he takes away even what we have. And we’ve all heard this before, but I noticed that even before Sherry Dew said it, just as in my life before even being a counselor, “That sin makes you stupid. “People that we know that are bright people, and then they do things and you’re just like, “That person knows better. I know they know better, but why are they doing this?” And it’s because the light has shut down. And they lose intelligence. Can I just share something else that I absolutely love. Abraham 3:19. Remember where God is teaching Abraham about intelligence.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:40:47 And he says, the Lord said to me, these two facts do exist. That there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other. There shall be another more intelligent than that. Let me pause there for a second. What does that mean? That a Spirit is more intelligent than another Spirit. They have a brighter IQ. Is that what that means? I don’t think so. I think that intelligence, because what do we read? And isn’t it Section 93, that’s talks about light and truth and intelligence are all the same thing. Light, truth and intelligence. It’s all the same. So I think what God is saying here to Abraham is that the difference between the intelligence of spirits is that one will receive the light more quickly than the other. Maybe the other isn’t receiving it at all, but if they are receiving it more slowly, this one is quick to receive light and continue in God.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:41:46 So they receive more light and that light is intelligence. And like we said the withdrawal of the light makes us stupid or less intelligent, but doing the right thing makes us brighter. I mean, in every way. But it’s truly a brain function. You remember that President Nelson gave a speech when President Hinckley was the Prophet about how President Hinckley was a multifaceted genius. And there are lots of stories about that. Like some Asian scholar came to BYU and the professor arranged an interview with Hinckley and this guy walked away saying, “Why do I not know about this man? He understands more about Asia than anybody I’ve ever talked to who was a professional.” And it wasn’t his expertise. Although he had spent a lot of time there for the Church, but it was his willingness to follow the light that made his mind quick.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:42:37 And then it was everything else too. Like there were so many stories like that. And I would say that I read the biography of President Hinckley and he didn’t start out in school as some kind of genius kid that all the teachers were just blown away by, or that just rocked all the standardized tests. No, it was because he continued in light. So God could work with his brain and give him that facility that quickness, that light and end it. It’s not about IQ. It’s about goodness. It’s about adaptability. The ability to speak to people, to connect with them, to know what is needed. To receive the Spirit. I can understand the spirit of truth that makes sense. It all goes together. To me, this is just… This is rock star stuff that the word is telling us. Receive the light.

Hank Smith: 00:43:26 Do you remember Elder Hales? He talked about a bicycle. He had as a kid and he said, “The light on my bicycle was attached to my pedals. So the faster I peddled the brighter the light.” And so he said, “I got really good at paddling. And he said, “And then when I stopped pedaling, the light went dark.” And this is the idea of you receive truth. If you’ll live that truth, I’ll give you more light. With that light, you’re going to see more truth than if you’re going to live that truth. I’ll give you even more light. Listen to this. This is one of those moments. Do you remember Dr. Millet, John said, this is one of those moments where you look at Joseph Smith and go, “What manner of man is this?” Who says stuff like this? Listen to this statement. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:44:14 He says this. “We consider that God… This is Joseph Smith. We consider that God has created man with a mind capable of instruction and a faculty which may be enlarged in proportion to the heat and diligence given to the light, communicated from heaven to the intellect and that the nearer man, and we’d say mankind, men and women, the nearer men and women approach perfection, the clearer are their views and the greater their enjoyments till they have overcome all the evils of this life and lost every desire for sin. And like the ancients arrives at that point of faith where he is wrapped in the power and glory of his maker and is caught up to dwell with Him.” I mean, that is exactly what we’re talking about here. Live the truth you’ve been given and you will get more light, but don’t live the truth you’ve been given and you’ll lose the light. And with less light, you’ll see less truth.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:45:12 That’s right. It’ll be darkness and confusion.

Hank Smith: 00:45:14 It’ll digress.

John Bytheway: 00:45:16 And sometimes those verses that we’ve talked about sound kind of unfair. I’m going to give to those who have and take from those who don’t have, but you have to notice the meaning of the word receive. I’m going to let it in. It’s like when we confer the Holy Ghost, it’s not now the Holy Ghost will come upon you, whether you want it or not, it’s receive it. And that is something you must do. So you use that phrase, heed and diligence. I’ve got to let it in. And that’s why I love, I mean, I said in an earlier podcast, Section 19 was one of my favorites. But boy 50, and that verse 24, “Because I received the light.” It’s like a… I tell my students, like a wedding reception, you receive guests, you let it in. And if you receive it and give heed and diligence to it, you get more.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:46:07 Can I throw something else in here because the rest of the verse or section, I mean, God talks a little bit about how you can understand what’s from the Spirit and what’s from Him and what’s not. And He says in verse 31, “It shall come to pass that if you behold a spirit manifested that you cannot understand.” 

John Bytheway: 00:46:27 There it is again.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:46:29 There it is again. “And you receive not that spirit, ye shall ask the Father in the name of Jesus; and if he give not unto you that spirit,” or understanding if he doesn’t explain it, or if it doesn’t start to make sense or fit with what has already been received, then you may know it is not of God. Because God doesn’t work against himself. So if it comes in, it’s confusing. Well, it’s probably not of God, but you can ask just to make sure there’s something more that you need to understand, but if you don’t get understanding, dismiss it. Confusion is not of God. He doesn’t work against himself. Remember when Christ comes to the Nephites and at the end of the first day of where he has just blown them away with all this wonderful teaching, with the true gospel taught from the Savior himself, what does he say at the end? He says, “I see that some of you have not understood.”

Hank Smith: 00:47:19 Go home and ponder, yeah.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:47:21 Go home and think about it and pray that you can understand. That’s exactly what he’s saying here. Pray that you can understand. Because it’s important to God that we understand that we get to the sense of it. To see how it affects my life for the better, how it makes me a better person, more like Jesus Christ. Not some windows shop Pharisee where I look good to the crowd, but where actually rubber hits the road and I become a better man, a better woman, a better husband, a better father, a better mother, a better wife, a better sister, brother, aunt, uncle, roommate, member of my community, colleague, boss, employee. If it doesn’t hit the ground running and change us for the better, it’s not of God, because those are the things that bring us to Christ. Something that is workable. It’s tangible. It makes sense. I can take it home and do something with it. I don’t have just this, “Ooh, that was a really cool spiritual moment, but I really actually have no idea how that’s going to change my life tomorrow or today.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:48:24 It has to be tangible. It has to be concrete. It has to be pragmatic. And then look at that. He says that you’ll have power over that spirit, verse 32. “And you shall proclaim against the spirit with a loud voice that is not of God.” Then interestingly, “Not with railing accusation, that you be not overcome.” In other words, “Don’t go contentious on me,” and don’t get all, like into some kind of fit or frenzy about like, “Oh, you get out of… Just be calm. You know what this is. You can tell truth from error, light, from dark. Just dismiss it. “Not with railing accusation, neither with boasting nor rejoicing.” We just talked about recognition and the problem of trying to appear, this is making me something really hot and special here, “Lest you be seized therewith.” This is a humble process. Just make sense of it. And if it makes sense, it’s of God. And if it doesn’t make sense, it’s not dismiss it. And don’t go all crazy about how you dismiss it. Just get rid of it.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:49:22 Now I just can’t help myself. I have to talk about Moses 1. Because this is another example of the comparison between light and dark. And good and evil and how Moses makes this distinction. And I just anyway, such a tremendous story here of Moses who has been in the presence of God. And then basically passes out for several hours because that transfiguration was exhausting. And then he comes to himself. I don’t know [inaudible 00:49:53] takes many hours, Moses did again, receive his natural strength, like in demand. And he said it himself. And this is the understatement of the century right. “Now, for this cause I know that man is nothing, which thing I had never before supposed.” I kind of had no clue about the real light and me and how much he wants to give me. How much he has to give me. And here I am, but he’s receiving it. So that’s pretty cool.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:50:21 And then he says, “But now mine own eyes have beheld God; but not my natural, [but] my spiritual eyes.” And then verse 12, “When Moses  had said these words, behold, Satan,” came tempting him. Because every time, and we’ve seen this in the Restoration, when new light is coming, Satan is right there trying to sniff it out. That’s what he does. He wants to… Of course, he’s never succeeded. He says man, you’re not even a man. He’s this evil dark story. He has never succeeded, but he doesn’t stop trying until he’s vanquished at the end. So here he comes, “Moses, son of man, worship me.” Now look at how Moses responds. This is so classic. “And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou?” And I think if we translate this correctly it would say like, “What’d you say it was? For behold. I am a son of God. And where is the glory that I should worship thee?” Light, no light.

John Bytheway: 00:51:17 “I’ve seen the light.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:51:18 “I’ve seen the light. No contest. What’d you say your name was? Why would I do that?” And then interestingly, and he talks about how he couldn’t look upon God without being transfigured, but he can look upon Satan in the natural man. And then where is thy glory for it is darkness unto me and I can judge, there it is. I can judge between the and God. And this is all about judgment. You know, sometimes we get this false idea in the church. It’s one of our favorite false doctrines that we shouldn’t judge. And that’s really false doctrine. We can’t condemn. We’d have to be omniscient like God to condemn people. That’s not our business. We don’t know enough, but to judge, we have to judge. How do you use your agency without making a judgment? And what do we judge light and dark? Is this leading me to Christ? Or a way, is this making sense or is it confusion and darkness? We’re judging all the time. And as I said, when I was going through my graduate program, I made judgments every day, I heard all kinds of expert stuff. Whatever.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:52:24 And some of it fit beautifully with the gospel in Jesus Christ. And I could judge, “Oh, that is correct.” Those ideas are helpful and correct. It’s a good take on this because it fits with the gospel of Jesus Christ and this stuff. “No, that absolutely conflicts with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It doesn’t make sense in light of the gospel. It is not true. End of story.” End of story. Light or dark, truth or air, does it fit? Does it not fit? Does it add an edification to my understanding of God and his truth and his gospel and faith repentance, baptism, and the gift of the Holy Ghost or not. So Moses makes this judgment and says it. “I can judge between thee and God, for God’s. And to me, worship God for him only shalt thou serve. Get thee, hence Satan, deceive me not.” And then interestingly, a few verses later, it says that Satan, “Cried with a loud voice and ranted upon the earth.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:53:24 I think he probably had a tantrum. I think he’s like, “Are you kidding me? I was hoping to get some traction here and snuff this light out. And you’re just so out of hand, able to dismiss me. I am the only begotten worship me.” And then Moses began to fear exceedingly. And as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of how fear is what made him a little bit too susceptible for a moment to the powers of Satan. We don’t have to be afraid. If we know the light from the dark, we don’t have to be. And that’s exactly where Moses goes. He goes back to what he knows. Nevertheless, calling upon God he received strength and commandment saying, “Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory.” The light, not the darkness. This is what the gospel’s about. It’s light versus dark truth versus error. And it enlighteneth in every area of our lives.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:54:27 It makes us better at everything we do. It makes us better in our interpersonal relationships. It makes us at peace with ourselves. Because we improve and fulfill our potential. And we cast our sins away through the power of the atonement of Jesus Christ. We’re able to become new and better and progressed and we receive that light. And it becomes a part of us and more light is coming right behind it.

Hank Smith: 00:54:58 I didn’t mean for this to happen, but I have learned a lot about parenting in this section. It seems the Lord’s gets a little frustrated with the hypocrisy, just the bad decisions that have been made. And then He says, “Okay, let’s talk it through. Let’s talk this through together.” And he’s very kind to them right. Now look, this is what I taught you. This is what you did. Those two don’t line up. Let’s give me some examples here. And then he says, “Everyone stay calm.” Let’s do the… I mean, I just love the spirit of teaching in this section. Because it even says, at the end, “You are little children.” He says that in verse 40. “You are little children, fear not right. “He kind of increases his love for them after he’s set a boundary and told them, “Listen, you’ve gone beyond the boundary. This is how you stay in the boundary. And then he follows up with all this love and personal interaction.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:00 I love what you’ve done here. The section itself makes you feel something.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:56:04 It’s a powerful section.

Hank Smith: 00:56:06 You feel like you would just want to be better, right? I want to be better.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:56:09 It’s a theme that’s repeated again and again, that Christ is the light and the life and this idea of knowledge. And as we’ve said, the Doctrine and Covenants is an example of how Joseph Smith grew from “line upon line, precept upon precept, from light to light from grace to grace.” So this whole thing is about the growth of light. Light coming back to the earth. The light of the Restoration that has blessed the entire planet. I can’t find it if any of you know where it is, let me know. But there’s a chart that I saw when I was an undergrad about how inventions have been tracked in the history of the world. And when they invented the wheel or when they invented this or whatever, and it was pretty slow for most of the history of mankind.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:56:55 And then it hits 1820. It goes like sky high. The light and truth came to the earth and it didn’t just come to the saints. Although of course, Joseph Smith was the prophet of the Restoration and this was the instrument through which the light came. And all of these early Saints that believed and sacrificed to receive the light and continue in God, but light poured out on the planet. You know, it is a battle between light and dark and light always wins, light always banishes darkness. I love what you said about children. And you know that in D&C 93, again, speaking of light, God tells us, “I’ve commanded you to bring up your children in light and truth.” And you’re right. This is a great pattern for us as parents did that reason with our children. And that is the process of transferring values by the way. Which the family is the only organization on the planet that is designed to transfer values.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:57:56 And we are seeing so many failures of that around, even with people of King Benjamin, remember who were so basically sanctified in that moment where, “They had no more desire to sin but to do good continually,” but their children we’ve learned many chapters later, their children didn’t believe. Even there, there was a gap. Now, I let’s not be unkind here. The product of parenting is the parent. It’s not the child. You know, God himself offers light and truth to everybody, but not all his children receive it. So it’s not about condemning ourselves. If our children make mistakes or choose a different path. [crosstalk 00:58:34]. Yeah. But it is about making sure that we become more God-like in our parenting and that we access the truth.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:58:43 And we do try to help them understand the values of these things and what is right and what is wrong and, and to speak without shame about the gospel and to be bold. I know that bit about where Christ told the people that, “I can see that you did not have not understood it.”

Hank Smith: 00:59:00 That’s one. I love the Lord saying, “Let’s, talk this through.” He’s not coming in and grounding everybody. He’s like, “Let’s talk this through together.” Okay, and it’s almost like here at the end. He’s like, “Okay, everybody ready? All right. I love you. Fear not. g Go try again. Go give it another shot. I am in your midst. I am the Good Shepherd.” He says in verse 44, “You build upon this rock. You won’t fall. You’re okay. You’re okay. Let’s move. Let’s move forward.” Yeah. I really like the spirit of this section of humility and truth rather than trying to come in and say, “I’m going to fix everybody.” He’s like, “Let’s talk together. I want you to understand.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 00:59:46 “Don’t worry about those hypocrites, the wheat and the tares grow together. I’ll take care of it when it’s time. You don’t worry about it, but just you learn truth. You learn truth and don’t be hypocritical, but you learn truth.” Okay, so then He says, “Feast on the words of Christ, ‘this is familiar stuff, right? And then look at the consistency. “The words of Christ will tell you all things, what you should do.” So that’s the reason we have the words of Christ. Now, that’s the scriptures and the words of the prophet and why, so that we can know what to do. Like we were saying, “It’s got to have the rubber hitting the road. “How do I live? How do I become a better person, a better son of God, a better daughter of God, a better, individual, better in all my roles. Feast on the words, because they’re going to tell you all things, what you should do.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:00:30 And then He says, “If you don’t know any more than that, it’s because you don’t ask her knock and you’re going to end up perishing in the dark, not [inaudible 01:00:35] light, but if you’ll enter in, by the way.” Okay, that’s beautiful. And receive the Holy Ghost. We talked about how active that has to be it. And then what? “It will show you all things, what you should do.” So look, first, it’s the scriptures and the words of the prophet, which are let’s face it fairly generic. “What I say to one, I say to all.” Because everybody needs this, and these are principles of eternity. They are truths that everybody can use and improve their lives by living consistently with those words. But then if you persist and you receive the Holy Ghost in a sanctifying experience. So now he is your constant companion. It’s not that he comes once in a while, when you’re in a good place, he is with you all the time, because you are living so consistently that you don’t offend him.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:01:24 Because otherwise, when I start to do jerky stuff or I’m not kind, or I’m not living the way I should, that I’m offending the Spirit and it’s going to flee from me. But sanctified individuals are so consistent that the spirit can be their constant companion. And they’ve had this physical change in everything that Joseph Smith said, “The senses are enlivened.” I don’t know if that means colors are bright or whatever, but I’m anxious to learn that. And then it says, “Once you’re sanctified and have a constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, it will show you all things you should do.” Now, the Holy Ghost, isn’t going to contradict the scriptures. Of course, like you were saying, if an angel comes, he’s going to quote scripture because God is consistent. There’s an inherent and internal consistency. It’s logical. It’s understandable. It edifies, it makes sense.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:02:11 But it’s going to be more personal. Hank, it’s going to help me understand how to magnify my four ordinations. The things in my patriarchal blessing that are gifts that God wants me to magnify or explore, or that he has in store for me, the Holy Ghost is going to help me understand exactly how I can do that and what he tells me then I better do that. And then just to wrap it up, my husband has a great thought here. He’s worked with missionaries forever. And of course they can get really anxious. And somebody comes in and gives a speech about being the best missionary they can be. And they all get anxious because they’re not sure they’re the best. And my husband looked at the scriptures and said, God never says to be the best that you can be. He says, “Be diligent.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:02:55 Are you being diligent? And if they’re being diligent, if we’re being diligent, that’s on the path. It is consistent to be diligent. We fall down and scrape our knees when we get back up. Now I do think that we have to be careful that we’re not repenting of the same sins all the time. I used to try to help my Seminary students.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:03:13 It’s not like there’s a revolving door in the Bishop’s office. Like you’re not supposed to be in there every week, confessing the same sin. You do have to change. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t a process. And some things are harder to shake than others. God is patient, but he knows the difference between diligence and laxity. And we just need to make sure that we want what he has to give and that we want it enough to do the uncomfortable work of change. By definition, it’s uncomfortable. It’s new, it’s different. It takes a while for it to become familiar and ours and for us to own it. But that’s the journey and it’s a marvelous journey and there’s a happy ending for everybody,

Hank Smith: 01:03:57 Right? As you receive light, your desires change, you might be sitting here going, “I don’t want all that.” Well, I promise you as you are living this light, it will change your desires. In fact, I wanted to mention one verse that I just loved because there might be someone listening, going, “I want all this, but I can’t overcome my addictions. I can’t overcome my sins.” Look at verse 35, “By giving heed and doing these things which you have received, and which you shall hereafter receive–and the kingdom is given you of the Father, and power to overcome all things which are not ordained of him.” As you continue to just be obedient. Obedient to what you can, you will get the power to overcome those things that you feel like you cannot. And I’ve experienced that and I’ve seen many other people experience that idea of I’ll never overcome this. It’s just who I am. No, the Lord will give you power to overcome that light and truth will give you power to overcome things that you thought I’ll never be able to overcome.

Hank Smith: 01:04:56 I’ve noticed in this section for me personally, it’s a very… It gives you a lot of purpose, right? Why, why am I getting up today? Why am I doing what I’m doing? Because I want to live the truth I’ve been given so I can get more light so I can see more truth. Tomorrow is exciting because if I live the light and truth, I’ve been given, I’m going to get more. And then you both, you and John talk about “the perfect day.” Section 24 or Section 50, verse 24. There is a day coming that you can have that perfect day. And it’s perfect because of him, because he’s perfect. Is there anything else about Section 50 before we ask our last question, John, you feel like you’ve-

John Bytheway: 01:05:36 I just want to throw in that I have used the Section 50:24 at the end of a fireside quite a bit. And I love to say if you don’t remember anything else I remember today, would you please remember three words, “Continue in God.” And some people, they run into a challenge or a doctrine or a policy or something, and they discontinue God and you won’t find light in the dark. I love to tell them about a song when I was a teenager, “Looking for love in all the wrong places.” In the idea of you, don’t the same way you don’t find light in the dark. I think President Nelson said in [General] Conference, “Rehearsing doubts in the company of other doubters,” or something like that. And no, please. I plead with anybody. If you’re having an issue, continue in God, stay in the light and seek more light. And don’t discontinue God, cause you won’t find light there, but continue in God. And that is where you can receive more light and grow. And so I love that verse and that three word sermon.

Hank Smith: 01:06:45 Continue in God. Oh, John, that is awesome. John, Lili, both of you, these have just been awesome insights. Dr. Anderson, Lili, you are a scholar and a counselor. Your parents were scholars. You come from a family of scholars. You’re also a mother and a grandmother. We would love for our listeners to hear your personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the Restoration and what it has done for you personally, both in both your professional life and your personal life.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:07:17 I do come from thinkers. My parents actually came to this country with nothing after they served missions elsewhere. And they didn’t even have high school diplomas. They took the GED so that they could get to BYU and they worked as janitors and did everything they could and lived on pennies so that they could participate in this process of education. My father did his three college degrees in his second language. My mother did her three college degrees in her third language and her mastery was complete. They were brilliant people, but they were self-educated until they got to college by reading and studying. Now they both had the gospel in their youth, but they didn’t have much access to the Church organization. My dad and his family were basically the only family in [inaudible 01:08:10]. Well with his uncle’s family for a while, but then they went to [inaudible 01:08:14] and there were some cousins there, but they really were on their own without organized church until he went on a mission basically. Or shortly before his mission, actually he moved to Monterrey, Mexico, and there was a ward there, but he was already a teenager.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:08:27 My mother, the branch in France, when they joined the Church, they had like six people, including the missionaries. Well, maybe it was seven, but the missionaries, but you know, it was Heber J. Grant who came to Paris and they traveled to Paris from Orleans in order to hear him speak. And he, at that time, was still issuing the prophetic invitation to gather to Zion, meaning Utah. So that was the journey they began, even though it took them over eight years to get from France through Argentina. And she was the first lady missionary in [inaudible 01:09:01] actually, but then finally got to the United States and came to BYU where they studied. But my parents knew the gospel was true, even though they had limited access to the… When we think of the information age we’re in now and the touch of a finger on any device, we can get just more information than we can shake a stick at. But my parents were seekers and they wanted to understand.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:09:28 And they taught me that. They taught me that you can understand and keep looking until you understand. God wants you to understand and to know, but they always approached it as that God is right. So let’s find out why he’s right. Let’s not ask whether or not he’s right. Let’s find out why he’s right or how it looks that he is right. And in fact, I could have read the one little verse after in Abraham 3, after God says, there are two intelligences. There’s one more intelligent than the other. And a third will be more intelligent than… And then what does he say? He says, I am the Lord. That God is more intelligent than they all. In other words, isn’t that sad? He has to put it in print just in case you forget, I’m smarter than you. I’m smarter than everybody.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:10:16 I have all the light. So that was a great privilege to grow up with people who knew God spoke the truth. I’ve always been a little irritated by the fact that we’ve sort of had this term in the Church called the Mormon intellectuals, meaning people who talk themselves out of their testimonies because they study so much. Right. And I thought what does that make the rest of us? Chopped liver? Because I, because I don’t disbelieve or I haven’t lost my faith. I don’t have a thought in my head. I don’t have an intellect. I don’t think about things or become analytical or seek and try to understand anyway. And of course, one of my heroes was one of my many heroes in the gospel is Hugh Nibley who you want to talk about as an intellectual. I mean, the man spoke more than 16 languages and could read another eight or two. I don’t remember. It was amazing.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:11:03 And that man was a staunch defender of the Book of Mormon and a Defender of the Faith. And I have always wanted also to be a Defender of their Faith. Because I love it. It makes sense to me, it answers all my questions now. Not all at once. I remember in college, there were a couple of things I didn’t understand about the Church or the gospel. And I, well, it was the Church and I went to every Religion professor I could get to on BYU campus. And I asked them my questions and none of them had a good answer for me. Good men that they were, they were good and they shared what they could share, but they didn’t really answer my question. And you know what? I asked myself some questions at that point.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:11:46 And I said, “Do I believe God loves me?” Yes, I do. Do I believe He loves all his children? I absolutely do. I know He is no respecter of persons. He loves each of us in our own station, in our own lives. The way we are, he loves us. We are His. Do I believe he wants me to be happy and all those other children that He loves? Yes. I absolutely believe that in his perfect goodness in his perfect mercy, in his perfect grace and love. He wants us to be happy. And then here was the pivotal question. Do I believe he knows better than I do? How that happiness is to come, how I’m going to get there, how that’s going to come into my life. And that was the Abraham 3 answer. Yeah, I do believe he is more intelligent than I am.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:12:41 … not in today and my own understanding. And I thought, again if I don’t understand something, that’s my problem, it’s not God’s. And I believe that he will reveal that to me. I listened to Susan Black just earlier this week and her podcast with you. And I felt the resonance of what she said when she said that she had dozens of questions, or I don’t remember how many questions that she wrote down when she was young. And that at this point in her life, about 86% of them have been answered. That’s exactly how I feel. There were really just a couple, but I feel like I have at least an 86% understanding of Him. And it came line upon line. It distilled like the dews of heaven because I wasn’t ready to throw out the baby with the bath water. Because I saw how good God is because like Elma says, doesn’t it all? Doesn’t it all just testify of God.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:13:35 You know, everything demonstrates his love. If we have the ability to see it. And I know that some people haven’t felt that love. I’ve worked with people who haven’t felt the love of the Lord and it breaks my heart. But I know that it’s not because He doesn’t love them. It’s because they’ve been wounded and they’ve been hurt in ways that make it hard for them to receive that love. And the answer is for them to heal their receptors. And I’ve helped a lot of people who’ve decided to do that. And they do it. They do the work, but we can help each other heal our receptors so we can feel the love of God. And that’s the answer. Because if God is good and He loves me, then all the rest of this is going to work out just fine. And He is so much smarter than I am. I’m not going to beat my head against foolishness and say, “Well, I don’t get it right now.”

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:14:28 I mean, okay, well maybe there are some things that I’m still looking to understand better, but that list has gotten smaller and smaller over the years. Of course I’m getting old, but it’s gotten smaller and smaller because the Lord is kind and He does reveal things to those who have faith in Him. So it really does come down to a choice. We say, I know that the Church is true. I know Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. And I love it when people say that, I don’t have a problem with that. But in actual fact, we choose to believe it. Instead of believing something else. And we could believe that he’s not a prophet. We could believe he was just a fraud. It doesn’t make any sense. You can’t have these kinds of fruits without good roots. It’s impossible.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:15:14 Remember what they said in Acts about Jesus Christ when they were trying to decide whether to go and get the Apostles and round them up or whatever, and I’m forgetting my details here, you’ll have to help me. But it was when somebody says, “No, leave it alone.”

Hank Smith: 01:15:27 It’s Gamaliel. Gamaliel says, [crosstalk 01:15:30] nothing will happen.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:15:33 It’ll work its way through. But watch out, if it’s of God, you’ll find yourself fighting God himself. And that’s exactly what the story is here. That you can’t fight against the record of the Church. This is the growth, the magnitude, the goodness that comes from this. All the excellence, all the light, all the ways to live. How many people say things like, “Well, I don’t really believe, but I want my children to be raised that way.” You’re like, well, okay you’re seeing part of it, but you’re missing the big connection there, which is that you can’t get those kinds of fruits without roots. You just can’t. And the roots are real. I choose to believe those things every day. And I am so grateful for Joseph Smith. Once my husband and I were attending a professional conference in Rochester, New York.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:16:31 And we would take in the afternoon, we would have some time and we would go off and see Church History sites. And we got to the Sacred Grove later in the afternoon. And the tours were over in the missionaries, all had a meeting. So they just sort of pointed and said, it’s that way. So we have the wonderful opportunity to be there alone, and just to kind of wander there. And we found some benches and we sat there and it was still light enough. It wasn’t dark. It was just later in the afternoon and beautiful. And we decided to say a prayer. And then my husband asked me to say the prayer, and I couldn’t even mouth the words. I felt so overcome with gratitude for Joseph Smith and for the goodness of God and his Beloved Son, Jesus Christ. To work through that from a boy with his good heart and his seeking mind to bring this into my life and to my children and to my grandchildren.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:17:32 I am so grateful for all the good, I cannot deny the goodness of it. It makes too much sense. As a counselor, I have found that all the answers really are in the gospel of Jesus Christ. If I didn’t know it before, I knew it after, because every problem has its solution in the doctrines of the gospel of Jesus Christ. He has all the balm for all our wounds. He has all the solutions for all our problems. I do work with non-members sometimes. Of course, in Utah, most of my clientele are Latter-day Saints. I work occasionally with people who are raised in the Church, but are no longer believers, or they’re less active at this point in their lives. I just changed the vocabulary because the principles are the same. They’re the same. And why would I give them anything but the best. All the answers are to seek the light and conform our lives to it. To continue in God’s great phrase there, John, I love that you use that in that kind of way.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:18:34 That’s a marvelous three word sermon, as you say. Continue in God, give Him a chance to manifest his love because the goodness is there. The love for us as an individual. I mean, we’ve all said this, right, but how tender. That the first word that broke the silence of millennia between heavens and earth was Joseph’s name, silence for centuries. But He says Joseph, before he says anything else, and he could have said Lili. And He does. He says that if I have the ears to hear he’s speaking to me too, I heard his words in the Doctrine and Covenants when I was 16 and I’ve loved them ever since. And it gave me a great love of all scripture. And of course, then I went onto the Book of Mormon, which has gold nuggets on every page.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:19:21 And you know, the Old Testament and New Testament, which are other testaments that are so beautiful, the Pearl of Great Price with all its gems. It’s there, it’s there for the taking. We need to feast. I don’t know if that answers the question. I can’t imagine a life without the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 01:19:38 Thank you.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:19:39 And I have to say, this is all about the Savior. It’s all about the Savior. What he did for us is matchless. And I love Him for loving me in that way. And I know this is His Church. I said it, I know I feel it in my bones, in my soul that this is his Church, and I love Him for giving it to us.

Hank Smith: 01:20:03 Oh my goodness. John we’ve once again, now Section 49 and 50 are my new favorites. They’re my new favorites. It’s just incredible. I’m just not only continuing to be impressed by the minds we have, who visited us, John, but I’m continually impressed by these revelations, I’m seeing them in a new light going, wow.

John Bytheway: 01:20:24 I’ll never see them the same. And every week I’m making new notes. And I mean, I’ve seen the word and the spirit of truth. It’s about six times in there. Truth has a spirit. Oh my goodness. I’ve seen the word understanding Lili, the way I hadn’t seen it in this section before. So thank you for being with us today.

Dr. Lili De Hoy…: 01:20:48 Thank you. What a wonderful opportunity. I’ve had a wonderful time.

Hank Smith: 01:20:54 All of this coming from a 26-year-old, I think at this point, a 25-year-old farm boy and his contemporaries, right?

John Bytheway: 01:21:02 Three years they’re formed. You can’t have the fruits without the roots. I heard that too.

Hank Smith: 01:21:07 That’s beautiful. Well, thank you, Dr. Anderson, for being with us. Thank you to all of you for listening. We’re grateful for your continued support. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorenson. We want to thank our production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Kyle Nelson, Will Stotten and Andrew Morton. And we hope you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.