Hank Smith: 00:02 Welcome to Part II of this week’s podcast.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 00:07 The next several verses are very short, but they talk about the different gifts. “Some have been given the faith to be healed. Some as having the faith to heal. Some are given the working of miracles. Some of us the gift of prophecy, some the discerning of spirits. Some of us given the gift to speak with tongues, some to interpret tongues.” And then it says this, in verse 26. “All these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God.” I think that it’s important to recognize if you have one of those gifts, the faith to heal, the faith to be healed, working miracles, prophecies, spirits, et cetera, I think it’s important to realize that those gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God. They come from God for the benefit of others, not for yourself.

And you can lose those gifts just as quickly as you can receive them by showing off, by somehow drawing attention to yourself instead of showing that the gift came from God for the benefit of the children of God.

Hank Smith: 00:59 I have noticed as a teacher myself there’s a big difference between the lessons when I think, “I’m going to show everybody how much I know,” versus, “How can I bless the lives of the people in this room right now?” Big difference between those two lessons. I usually walk away if I’m trying to impress, deflated. If I’m trying to bless, I walk away excited, and it’s not about me. That’s the time where I go, “Oh.”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 01:29 That’s the key. It has to not be about you. It has to be about the people that you’re trying to bless. That’s what it has to be about. 

John Bytheway: 01:35 That’s a good phrase, Hank: “To impress or to Bless.” 

Hank Smith: 01:39 -fall victim to these things, and we can just do a check. Just stop and go, “Wait, wait, wait, what? What is my goal here? What’s my motive using this gift?”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 01:49 Your motive has to be to benefit the children of God. It has to be to bless God’s children, that has to be the motivation.

Hank Smith: 01:58 Do you think, Ron, when the Lord is listing here 19, 20, 21, 22, all these different gifts, I wonder if he’s saying there’s lots. He’s not going to give an exhaustive list. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 02:09 Oh, yeah.

Hank Smith: 02:09 And we’re saying that’s all.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 02:10 Yeah. Are you familiar with Elder Ashton’s talk about the gifts of the spirit?

Hank Smith: 02:16 Now, that was back in the 1900’s right?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 02:18 It was.

Hank Smith: 02:19 So you’ll have to remind some of our listeners. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 02:22 Marvin J Ashton, who was a member of the Twelve Apostles back then, gave a talk where he says, “This is not all the gifts. This is some 30 more gifts that are gifts that we can give other people.”

Hank Smith: 02:33 Wow.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 02:33 Again, we have to give other people the gifts. They are not for ourselves. They are for others, to bless and help them. His point was this list is not comprehensive. It’s just the skeleton, really. But we can bless the people in many different ways if we just look for ways to bless them, and that’s the whole point. The point is we have to look for ways to bless them. We have to look for ways to benefit the children of God.

John Bytheway: 02:58 I see it three times. I see it in verse 12, “that all may be profited thereby.” I see it at the end of verse 16, “that the spirit may be given to every man to profit with all.” And I see it in verse 26 “All these gifts come from God for the benefit of the children of God.”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 03:14 For the benefit, yeah.

John Bytheway: 03:14 Really, trying to emphasize that these aren’t for your own individual aggrandizement. This is to bless everybody.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 03:23 This is just to bless. That’s what they’re for. They’re to bless people.

John Bytheway: 03:27 Three different times. I also see in verse 27 where Bishops are specifically blessed with the gifts of discernment, which is helpful. I mean, what’s one of the titles of Bishop? A judge in Israel.

Hank Smith: 03:38 Judge of Israel, yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 03:40 I also think it’s important to point out in verse 29 that the person is the head of the Church, the President of the Church, has every gift. President Nelson has definitely displayed the many gifts that he’s received since he’s become the President of the church. And I think that’s a humbling thing for all of us to recognize and to receive and to realize that he has all these gifts. 

Hank Smith: 04:00 Oh, Ron, I’m glad you brought this up. I want to make two points. Let’s go back to 27. John, how would you describe the Bishop having the gift of discernment; yet, Bishops aren’t perfect? They’re going to make mistakes. We can’t have the expectation that the Bishop is going to know everything that’s happening, and he’s going to call the right person to every calling. We can’t have that expectation. I think maybe he has the gift, and it’s up to each of us, and it’s up to the Bishop, too, to be his best. Is that the message I should get?

John Bytheway: 04:38 Well, Ron can speak to this, too, but I just remember how incredibly humbling and inadequate you felt when you had to make really big decisions about individuals, maybe in a membership council or something. I remember one time knowing a membership council was coming and spending all night, almost, hearing the words of the song, “Who am I to judge another when I walk imperfectly.” It’s not any job anybody would want, really. But I also remember getting impressions that are not what I would’ve thought. I have a testimony that I got help in those times and discerned things I would not have discerned. I can say it for sure. I’d love to hear what Ron has to say, also having had that calling.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 05:34 I remember two different times. For some reason, these two experiences come to mind. I hope it’s okay if I share them. The first one is that I called a young lady to be the Relief Society President. And she cried and cried and cried. She cried so loud in my office, the people out in the hall could hear her. But she ended up being the best Relief Society President I’d ever called. 

I remember another was a woman that I called to be the Relief Society President, and she was planning to move. Her and her husband had bought a… You should see where they live. They live in a multi-million dollar house up on a bench. And she purchased this house. And I called her to be the Relief Society President because I didn’t know she was planning on moving. And she accepted the call and also was one of the best ever. So I think Heavenly Father knows who has those gifts, even if the people don’t know that they have them. Heavenly Father knows that they have them. And he blesses them to rise up to the occasion to the offices that they’re called to. And those are two marvelous experiences for me.

Hank Smith: 06:33 That’s beautiful. We’ve just got to watch where we place our line because sometimes we expect Church leaders to have the gift of discernment to the point where they should also be able to pick all the numbers of the lottery. They should never get sick. We’re all of the sudden having expectations of them that the Lord doesn’t… The Lord never says that they’re going to know everything, that they’re going to make every decision correctly. Because sometimes, you call someone to a calling, and then something happens, and people will blame… They’ll say, well, why didn’t that Stake President have enough discernment?

John Bytheway: 07:07 Yeah, the First Principle of the gospel is not the perfection of your Bishop. It goes right back to first principles. I love Elder Holland’s statement: “All the Lord has ever had to work with is imperfect people. It must be incredibly frustrating to Him. But He deals with it.”

Hank Smith: 07:26 But he deals with it. 

John Bytheway: 07:28 And then the best part: “And so should we.” We can suit our mercies according to the conditions of others. The way the Lord is being merciful to us. That’s reciprocity right there. I certainly hope my ward is merciful to me. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 07:44 I hope I don’t sound wrong here. I agree with everything you said, but I also believe that verse 27, I believe the Lord does inspire the Bishop to know who has what gifts, and so you make the callings. It’s right; people have their agency. They may not choose to follow the Lord, but the Lord still gives the bishop the inspiration to have the gift or the calling. I think that we have to remember that as well.

Hank Smith: 07:44 Yeah, right.

John Bytheway: 08:09 Yeah, I remember telling my wife when I got released that any future Bishop that I knew and decisions that they make, I would not dare to pretend to know all the things he knew about situations and things they were dealing with. I just thought I’m never going to second-guess that again because I was aware of things that were happening, and things that were confidential, and feelings, inspirations that I had, that you can’t possibly know all of the things that your current Bishop might know, and is dealing with.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 08:43 There’s no way you can know.

John Bytheway: 08:43 Yeah, it helped me to be a lot more, “Hey, whatever the current Bishop says, I’m going to do what I signified I would do.” This is not sustaining. This is signifying that you will sustain. And I’m going to sustain him.

Hank Smith: 09:00 I feel bad for poor Edward Partridge blazing the trail here. You get this section, and all of the sudden, here’s another expectation for the Bishop, and he’s got to be, “Okay.” He’s dealing with a lot. No handbook.

John Bytheway: 09:15 Is it fair to say that at first, the bishop was more of a temporal affairs type of calling? Bishop’s Storehouse and stuff like that?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 09:24 Yes. When the call was first given, it was. But it didn’t take very long for the Bishop to become like he is today. 

Hank Smith: 09:31 We still have the Presiding Bishop who deals with a lot of temporal affairs. 

John Bytheway: 09:35 Temporal. Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 09:35 Temporal. Yeah. 

John Bytheway: 09:36 Presiding Bishop, yeah, it’s very much temporal.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 09:39 Bishop Partridge was definitely very much the Presiding Bishop of the Church.

John Bytheway: 09:43 Yeah, that’s what I thought.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 09:45 Not a Bishop of a Ward, yeah.

Hank Smith: 09:47 I think this is a fantastic discussion. It says in verse 28, “It shall come to pass that he that asketh in spirit shall receive in spirit.” What do you think the Lord means by that?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 09:58 Well, I think you have to ask as you’re directed by the spirit. I think you can ask against the spirit, or you can ask for the spirit. 

Hank Smith: 09:58 Okay.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 10:02 I think you have to ask following the spirit, and then you’ll receive in the spirit. That’s what I think it means. 

Hank Smith: 10:09 Yeah, so this idea of when I’m praying, I better pray for the things that the spirit is directing me to pray for, not necessarily… because I can pray for a Lamborghini every time I pray.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 10:21 Look at verse 30, “He that ask in the spirit, ask according to the will of God, wherefore does he ask?” I think if you ask in spirit, it is then according to the will of God, and that’s how you know.

Hank Smith: 10:32 Anything else in Section 46 before we move on?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 10:35 I found this quote in the Millennial [inaudible]  from George Cannon. Most people don’t even know who George Cannon was. He was a member of the First Presidency. But he taught the following, quote: “If any of us are imperfect, it is our duty to pray for the gift that will make us perfect. You are not to say, ‘Oh, I can’t have this. It is my nature.’ He is not justified in it, for the reason that God has promised to give strength to correct those things and give gifts that will eradicate them.” I love that thought that we should pray for the gifts that will help us become more like Heavenly Father. I think that’s a good way to end this section.

Hank Smith: 11:09 Yeah, wow. That’s special. Who was it, John, that said, “Which is the most important commandment? It’s the one you’re struggling with.”

John Bytheway: 11:16 Harold B. Lee. 

Hank Smith: 11:16 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 11:18 Yeah, Harold B. Lee. 

Hank Smith: 11:18 So, hey, let’s pray for the gift that will help you overcome the things that are your weaknesses right now. Like President Hinckley said, “Work on the big things, and then start working on the little things as we go.” Man, I love that.

John Bytheway: 11:33 I’m thinking of the phrase… and now I’m forgetting is this a Book of Mormon verse to “Seek ye earnestly the best gift.” Because it’s not just find out what they are, but you can seek them.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 11:44 Yes, you should seek them earnestly.

John Bytheway: 11:46 Yeah. 

Hank Smith: 11:48 Because this comes up in… is it 1 Corinthians as well?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 11:51 Yes, it does.

Hank Smith: 11:52 Right? Chapter 12. Another place where we can talk about the gifts of the spirit. The Lord has put them all over the place. He wants us to know these things. I want to add two things. One is I wrote a book on happiness a couple of years ago. It sold dozens of copies, mostly to my mom. But I learned something. There’s a man named Martin Seligman, who is doing some incredible work in positive psychology, a relatively new field. He found, I think you’ll like this, relating to what we just talked about… He said, “There are three types of human happiness,” he says, “One is… gives you a little bit of happiness that fades quickly. The next one lasts with more happiness, and it doesn’t fade as quick. And the next one is,” he said, “is one that is sustaining.” This happiness is sustaining, and it lasts… It’s a higher form of happiness.

So, here is number one, he just calls it pleasure. Pleasure is a form of happiness, and it quickly fades like smoke. He said, “Two, the next higher form of happiness is engagement.” Now, listen to what he said engagement is, and you’ll see that I think he’s catching up here to Section 46. “Engagement or flow,” he says, “is when you use your specific unique gifts,” he calls them, “frequently.” That you’ll get to a point where you just… you feel engaged. People will say, “Oh, time just flew by for me.” It’s when you’re using your gifts… He called them gifts daily. 

And then, he said this, “The highest level of human happiness is meaning. Where you’re not only using your gifts every day, and you’re not only experiencing the small pleasures of life, but you’re using your gifts to a cause that is bigger than yourself.”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 13:50 I love that.

Hank Smith: 13:51 And he is right in line here with what the Lord is saying. Use your gifts, use them as regularly as you can, and use them to benefit something that is bigger than yourself. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 13:51 Mm-hmm (affirmative). 

Hank Smith: 14:04 Yeah. I thought Dr. Seligman stumbled across some beautiful ideas here that were in the Doctrine and Covenants a couple… 200 years ago, but still. I love that he found that truth. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 14:21 Thank you for sharing that, Hank. That’s wonderful.

Hank Smith: 14:23 Yeah, and then I wanted to share one other thing. And I wanted to see what you all thought about this. This is a brand-new book out by my friend Patrick Mason. It’s called Restoration. He wrote something about spiritual gifts in here that I just wanted to share with you. I thought it was so profound. He said, “What if we were to extend the principles outlined in Section 46 to consider the ways in which God has graced not just individual women and men, but also, whole cultures and communities with special gifts to be shared for the benefit of all. When we do this, we begin to see how God has endowed various groups all over the world, including other religions with particular gifts and callings that are designed to bless the word.”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:10 Wow.

Hank Smith: 15:12 Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:12 I love that.

Hank Smith: 15:14 I thought it was an excellent insight. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:15 That’s a great point.

Hank Smith: 15:17 He quotes the 1978 First Presidency statement that we’ve talked about here before, John, with I think it was JB Haws. The First Presidency says in 1978, “The great religious leaders of the world such as Mohammad, Confucius, Reformers, Socrates, Plato, received a portion of God’s light. Truth was given to them by God to enlighten whole nations and bring a higher level of understanding to individuals.”

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:44 That has to be true.

Hank Smith: 15:45 Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:46 That has to be true.

Hank Smith: 15:46 I really thought it was a beautiful idea. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:48 Yeah. 

Hank Smith: 15:48 A beautiful statement that-

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:50 Gifts are given to everybody.

Hank Smith: 15:52 Other religions, other cultures, have gifts to offer us. I thought that was a beautiful thought. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 15:58 And, finally, if we recognize that we have them, we’re willing to receive them.

John Bytheway: 16:04 Well, we talked with Brent Top about holy envy and that idea of looking at another faith and seeing, oh, I really like that, and I’d like to incorporate that more into me personally. But that’s a mind-expanding thought.

Hank Smith: 16:25 Yeah. I was impressed by that, and I was excited to share it with you. Ron, let’s move onto Section 47. It’s a revelation to John Whitmer. We’ve talked about the Whitmer family before. I don’t know if we’ve necessarily talked about John individually. He’s being called here as a Church Historian. So, what do we know about John Whitmer? What do we know about this calling?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 16:44 Well, unfortunately, John left the Church. John was one of a kind. He was asked to replace Oliver Cowdery, who was an excellent Church Historian while he was one. He had the privilege to be the scribe for Joseph with various different settings. When he was called to be the Church Historian, he said, quote: “I would rather not do it, but observe that the will of the Lord be done. If he, the Lord, desires it, I desire that I would be a benefit to Joseph the Seer. So he will not be the church historian unless he receives a revelation from God. Joseph therefore inquired of the Lord, and the same day, in Section 46, we see Section 47. They were received the same day.

In section 47 verse 4, it says, “In as much as he is faithful,” that’s the problem. He began his history the day Oliver Cowdery left off June 12, 1831. He was later excommunicated for apostasy and refused to give his history to Joseph. They asked him for it, and he wouldn’t give it. It eventually fell in the hands of the Community of Christ Church, and then, of course, we ended up with it, with Joseph Smith Papers, and history writing, too. 

It has 19 chapters in it. It’s 83 pages long. After he was excommunicated, he added two more chapters, 15 pages, exonerating himself, replacing the blame for his excommunication on the Saints. And he died outside the Church. And so Section 47 is really a sad Section no matter how you look at it because the person was called, didn’t do a good job, and what he did do, he gave to the LDS Church and died out of the faith. And so it’s just really a sad story there for John Whitmer, I think.

John Bytheway: 18:21 Yeah, me too. I have come to such a great love for some of these early Saints who sacrificed so much. Names like the Whitmers that we kind of discount, and it’s just… It’s not necessarily we should be judging them. It’s that it’s just a sad story because the Whitmers were such an important and crucial part in our beginnings, and I hate to see this falling out between the Whitmers and Joseph. And then not returning like Martin Harris returned, like Oliver Cowdery returned.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 18:54 John Whitmer does not return. 

John Bytheway: 18:54 Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 18:54 He did not return. 

John Bytheway: 18:57 I hate to see that.

Hank Smith: 19:00 If I can kind of get a broad application from this, I just love that the Lord gave revelations to James Covil in ’39, probably knowing what would happen. Here, John Whitmer, probably knowing what would happen, but gave them a glimpse of their possibilities and of their potential. And I think that’s what patriarchal blessings are. The Lord doesn’t just say, “No, you’re not going to amount to much.” But he gives you this vision of your potential and possibility, and I’m thankful that he does that. It gives you something to look up to but tells you, “You can do this. This is your capacity.” It’s just a broader way of looking at the whole thing, maybe.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 19:40 Yeah, the Whitmers were definitely a key part of the beginning of the church. And John Whitmer was the key part. He was Joseph’s scribe. He was later the scribe for the whole Church. So they aren’t bad people, per se. They just took wrong turns, and I think there’s something we can learn from people that take wrong turns, as well. No matter how good you get started off, if you take a wrong turn, you end up in the wrong place. And John Whitmer is an example of a person who took a wrong turn. He could’ve easily been one of the leaders of the church for the rest of his life, but he took a wrong turn and died in Missouri and outside the Church.

Hank Smith: 20:15 Are there any of the Whitmers that remained faithful or came back?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:20 How sad, no.

Hank Smith: 20:22 Not even Peter, Sr.?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:25 No. He passed away, but the ones who lived, none of them stayed faithful.

John Bytheway: 20:31 Yeah, I was going to say a couple of them passed away in Missouri before the family leaves. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:37 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 20:38 So you would say they died faithful in the Church.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:41 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 20:41 I think Oliver is the only… He’s an in-law, and is the only one who returns.

Hank Smith: 20:48 Yeah, he comes back.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:48 At the end of his life, yeah.

John Bytheway: 20:50 Yeah, at the end of his life.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 20:51 We can learn a lot from that, my friends. We can learn a lot from that. It’s important to endure to the end no matter what happens to you. At the risk of being personal… Is it okay if I’m personal for a second?

John Bytheway: 21:01 Please, please.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 21:02 I had no idea this would happen to me. I had no idea that I would fall victim to Parkinson’s Disease and et cetera, but I bear my witness to you that I will never fall away. The Church is true. I’m not true. The Church is true, and I’m staying with it until the end. And I’m so grateful for the opportunity to bear my testimony today of that because there are people who did not stick to the end, and they’ve left the Church. And that’s really a sad thing. But we can learn lessons from them.

Hank Smith: 21:34 Thank you, Ron.

John Bytheway: 21:35 Ron, that was beautiful. Ron, I know you’re a lover of history. What would you say the importance of the records we have… because just because John Whitmer leaves doesn’t mean the history stops. We keep a pretty good history. How important has that history been to us now almost 200 years later.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 21:59 Wow, that question is a long answer. I’ll try to answer it as quickly as I can. One of the blessings that I’ve had as a member of the Church is I have had a chance to review some of the volumes of Joseph Smith Papers. One of the volumes that I had a chance to review for BYU Studies in writing for it was the volumes on the histories. We can learn as much about the histories… from sin histories, the people that wrote them, as we can from the histories themselves. Not all the histories are the same. Not all are complete. They all have problems. John Crow, for example, wrote a history; he left the Church. John Whitmer wrote history; he left the Church. 

So we can learn two things: we can learn from the histories themselves. We can also learn from the people who wrote the histories, what to do and what not to do. And I think that has been a blessing to me. Just to be a short answer, for now, of the history of the Church.

Hank Smith: 22:53 Can I just ask you a personal question?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 22:55 Sure.

Hank Smith: 22:55 Why do you love history so much? I’ve heard you present on some polygamous families that you presented on at one time. I’ve heard you present on the revelations. And I know you’re a lover of history. Why do you love it so much?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 23:13 Because there’s so much we can learn from it. Those people all passed away. We can learn from their mistakes. We can learn from the good things they did. We can learn from the bad things that they did without having to do it ourselves. And so I feel like I’m a better person because of the histories that I’ve read and studied.

John Bytheway: 23:30 I like the Book of Mormon phrase that the plates would enlarge the memory of the people. And I think history has a way of enlarging our memory. We can learn the lessons without going through the hard part if we really try. And it can enlarge our memory and help us be wise instead of just knowledgeable. 

Hank Smith: 23:53 Yeah. I’m 100 percent with you, John. The history is so important. And I’ve heard it said before, “If you want to be remembered, keep a journal.” If you want to be remembered by anyone after you’re gone, keep a journal. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 24:07 That’s a good point. 

Hank Smith: 24:09 Yeah, keep a record. Keep a history. And we still have this Church Historian role, right Ron?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 24:15 We do. The Church Historian now is always a General Authority for a good reason because it’s such a critical part of the gospel, for the reason you just said. And so the General Authority who is called to be the Church Historian is always very solid and very educated and very able to do all the work. But he’s also a General Authority, and I think it’s important.

Hank Smith: 24:39 So the Church Historian today is Elder LeGrand Curtis, Jr. I love that this calling given in 1831 is still with us today. I just love that. I just think there’s something beautiful there.

John Bytheway: 24:53 What I used to think as a kid about… because President Kimball, the President of the Church as I was a teenager, emphasized keeping a journal a lot. And I always figured that if our whole lives are going to be recorded in heaven, and the angels above us are silent note-taking, well, somebody is writing it down. Why do I have to write it down? And I can see now that putting it down yourself can bless you as you think about it, and you learn the lessons from it. And maybe you do this too, Hank, but I make my students keep a reading journal during our class because it goes into a different place in your short-term and long-term memory if you actually write down what you were learning. And you’ll retain it for longer. 

I was just going to mention Wilford Woodruff and how important he was as a history keeper. I guess he heard Joseph Smith say once… I remember in the movie Mountain of the Lord, he says, “Well, since I heard Joseph Smith say we should be a record-keeping people, I haven’t been able to go to bed before I wrote down the events of the day.” Does that sound familiar, Ron?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:05 Yes. And Wilford Woodruff wrote many, many multiple volumes of journals. 

John Bytheway: 26:10 Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:12 And we can learn a lot about our History of the Church from reading his journals. 

John Bytheway: 26:14 When I went to get my marriage recommend, I went to see my wife’s Stake President, and his name is Wilford Bruce Woodruff. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:23 Oh, wow. 

John Bytheway: 26:24 And that was pretty fun because we got talking about Wilford, and he has, as a direct descendant, access to all of those journals. I think the Church keeps them, but he has access to them.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:37 Yeah, that’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 26:37 Wow.

John Bytheway: 26:37 And I was also going to mention my beloved State President, who set me apart to go on a mission, was George I Cannon. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:46 Wow. 

John Bytheway: 26:47 Who served in the Seventy after that, but he set me apart for my mission.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 26:51 My goodness.

John Bytheway: 26:52 That was pretty cool-

Hank Smith: 26:53 Yeah, John.

John Bytheway: 26:54 To say George I Cannon set me apart. That was fun.

Hank Smith: 26:57 Did they just go through the alphabet with that? Do they just-

John Bytheway: 27:02 They got to Q then started over. Yeah, I don’t know. 

Hank Smith: 27:05 Go around to the [inaudible 00:27:06]. 

John Bytheway: 27:06 A tall, wonderful man, my Stake President.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 27:09 Wow, that’s awesome. 

Hank Smith: 27:12 And there’s different ways to keep a record, right? Some of us, maybe, are overwhelmed at the idea of opening up and writing down. Well, a lot of people type their journal now. And you can even record audio. You can just record audio.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 27:23 Yeah, audio. Yeah, you can.

Hank Smith: 27:23 Video, you could record. I do this a lot with my kids where I’ll say, “Oh, this is a journal moment.” And I’ll get my phone out, and I’ll record it. Okay, what’s the date today? What are we doing? And I think we’re keeping a record. 

John Bytheway: 27:37 And those things, I have a niece who’s uploading tons of stuff of my mom and dad to the family history websites and let them house it. Let them store it. But now all these photos are up there, and like they say, a picture tells 1000 words. So history in photos is up there, which is kind of a nice thing. What is the name of that?

Hank Smith: 28:02 The app is called Family Tree. And you’re exactly right. You can upload pictures, audio files to anybody’s record here. I’ve uploaded a lot to mine. I trust that those servers are double and triple backed up.

John Bytheway: 28:21 Yeah, they’re in a granite vault at Little Cottonwood Canyon, right? 

Hank Smith: 28:24 I love the little point on this on my family tree where I can go to my children, and it says, “Add spouse.” I’m like, oh, good. I can do this. For my daughter, I’ll choose John Bytheway’s son, right? It’ll be perfect.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 28:38 Oh, brother.

John Bytheway: 28:39 Ron, in Section 48, the Lord is actually talking about buying land, I think for anticipating other members that are coming.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 28:48 Yes.

John Bytheway: 28:48 Could you tell us some things about Section 48?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 28:51 I’d love to. Thank you so much. And, on March 9th, 1831, some members of the [inaudible 00:28:57] were able to sell their acreage, so they could relocate to Ohio, which was a happy thing for everybody. They were from Colesville, New York. On March 10th, 1831, as the time drew near for the brother from the state of New York to arrive in Ohio, there was no preparation made for the reception of the Saints from the East. They didn’t know where to put them. [inaudible 00:29:12] party being anxious to know something isn’t the matter, he asked Joseph to receive the revelation, and Joseph receives Section 48. 

In verses one to three, the Lord uses the phrase “present time” three times, implying that Ohio would only be a temporary Church center. Which, of course, we know for a fact that it was. In verse four, he says the city New Jerusalem, which was to be built with the sacrifice because of the Saints is not in Ohio. It’s somewhere else. The Church first heard by the city from the Book of Ether in the Book of Mormon. And in two previous places, the revelation Joseph will receive, Section 28 and 42. But they’re really excited to move there. 

The exact location of the city had not been revealed yet, verse five. But three months later, the Lord did tell them it was in Missouri. That was the place for their gathering, and he didn’t reveal the specific location as being Jackson County until they got there in January 1831. So, imagine you’re a member of the Church. You’ve just moved from New York to Ohio only to find out that Ohio is a temporary place, and you’re really moving somewhere else 1000 miles away in Missouri, which you won’t find out until July.

So they move in May. They don’t find out until July that they’re going to be moving to Missouri. But it’s a tough, tough time for the members of the church because they’re going to make section 48 a quote “hallowed place, a special place, but it’s a temporary place.” And that’s Section 48.

Hank Smith: 30:43 Yeah, and Ohio does become a temporary place for them. I wonder if the Lord says in verse five, “The place is not yet to be revealed,” and a side note, you probably would be upset with me. They’re saying, oh, I hope it’s not as far away as New York to Ohio. And the Lord is going-

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 31:04 It’s three times as far. 

Hank Smith: 31:06 It’s a lot further.

John Bytheway: 31:07 And, when you come into the valley, you’re going to go, “This is the place?”

Hank Smith: 31:12 Oh, you’re talking about Salt Lake. Yeah. He hasn’t even mentioned that one yet.

John Bytheway: 31:15 I’m talking about another one. And that’s kind of sad… Look at what they had to go through when building homes and farms that other people would occupy at some point. And sometimes, having to sell them for pennies on the dollar. Who was it in Nauvoo that swept the room and then left the broom by the door?

Hank Smith: 31:37 Yeah, that’s Wilford Woodruff. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:39 Yeah, knowing that, okay, bye. I just built this beautiful place, and now I’ve got to go.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 31:45 They did a lot of moving in those first years. They did a lot of moving. 

John Bytheway: 31:48 That’s rough.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 31:50 Missouri is a pretty good place, so is Nauvoo, but Salt Lake was terrible. When they first got here, it was awful. Especially for people who had lived in the East, right? 

Hank Smith: 32:00 Yeah. And going this is desolate. I remember growing up in Utah thinking, “It’s not a dessert. Look, we’ve got all these trees.” And then I went east and went, “Oh, that’s why they-“

John Bytheway: 32:13 I know. I felt the same way. You look down in a plane, and it’s like you have to clear the land of trees to do anything. And here, you’ve got to plant trees, which die if you don’t water them.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 32:28 Hank, John, can I make a couple of points here, please?

Hank Smith: 32:31 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 32:31 Please do.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 32:34 First point is it’s amazing how much the Saints do in Kirtland and realizing they were only going to be there for five years. They built the [inaudible 00:32:41] building. They build homes. They built a temple. They really worked hard the five years they were there, and they really make a difference. I think we often forget that as an important piece for them moving and now going into Salt Lake. They had a lot of practice building and leaving, building and leaving, building and leaving. And that’s something that they had to have a lot of practice doing.

The second point I’d like to make, which is even more important, is if you go to Kirtland today, it’s just beautiful. It’s spectacular. And it was beautiful then, too. And so think about how difficult it would be to leave these beautiful places one after another. New York, Ohio, Missouri, New York, Nauvoo-

John Bytheway: 33:21 Nauvoo, then Nauvoo. Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 33:23 And then to go to Salt Lake. These people really sacrificed a lot. I think that unless you’ve been there, you can’t appreciate how much they really had to sacrifice. So I just want to bear my testimony that I believe these Saints were really called of God. They knew how to move. They knew how to build. And that did them well when they came to Salt Lake. I bear my testimony that’s true, and I say it in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. 

Hank Smith: 33:50 Amen, I love that, Ron. That is beautiful. I love this. As we’re going through the Doctrine and Covenants this year… and I’ve taught the Doctrine and Covenants before, so I’m just coming to a new understanding of how much these men and women, these families, were called to do. And it gives me strength, and it also gives me responsibility, I feel like, to carry on the work they started. I am not going to be the one who… I don’t want to be the one who falls off and doesn’t build on this glorious chain they began. I feel a responsibility to my pioneer ancestors. Not even just the ones I’m related to, but these early, early ones of these early Sections. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 34:44 That’s awesome, Hank, because I feel like there’s many members of the Church today that don’t feel that way. They don’t understand. “The Doctrine and Covenants? What’s that?” Kind of a thing. I think it’s critical that we teach the people what happened so that they can appreciate the sacrifice that went before them so that they can know who they’re following, whose footsteps they’re following, and so they can become more like those people that they don’t really know a lot about. When I teach these Sections, when I teach 47, 48 particularly, I make sure that people know that these people gave up a lot. Especially in verse 46 and 48, they gave up a lot for me to have what I have today, and I need to build on that. Instead, I need to appreciate it and be thankful for it instead of just receive it.

Hank Smith: 35:31 Yeah, oh, Ron, that is so good because it reminds me of First Nephi chapter 1 verse 1, “I, Nephi,” he could say, King of Kings. He could say, “Builder of Boats, Crosser of Oceans.” He said, “I Nephi, having built upon goodly parents,” I have good parents. And we could also say “I, Hank,” “I, Ron,” “I, John,” having come from awesome pioneers.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 35:31 Awesome pioneers.

Hank Smith: 35:56 Awesome ancestors. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 35:59 Awesome. 

Hank Smith: 35:59 I have a responsibility to these people.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 36:04 I was talking to the President of the Wyoming Stake that did so much of the temple work for these people relays that most of them moved from New York to Missouri, to Nauvoo, to Ohio, to Salt lake, without receiving the temple ordinances. And that even gives me an even greater feeling for them as I realize,”Wow, they did that without receiving the temple ordinances.” Wow, we’ve been without the temple for a year now because it’s been closed, and I just am aching to go back. But those people, they never even saw a temple in their lifetime because the temple in Salt Lake wasn’t built until the St. George Temple was built in 1877. I don’t know. It’s just, to me, they’re awesome.

Hank Smith: 36:49 I love, Ron, earlier when you said, “I will be in this faith.” I feel that strength from them, too. As they continue forward, I continue forward, and I pass it onto the next generation.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 37:04 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 37:05 Yeah. I was just going to say the more we’ve studied this together, Hank, and it’s been such a privilege to be with you and these amazing guests that we have, the more my own problems and concerns have kind of diminished. And I just think, “Look what they did. Look what they were going through.” And I love things like that that help me reduce a lot of my problems to kind of first-world problems. 

Hank Smith: 37:28 It gives you perspective.

John Bytheway: 37:30 Yeah. And another thing I wanted to add is that I watched… I think I have watched the… I think it was the Sunday Morning Session, the “I Am a Child of God,” the very international session of General Conference. I think I’ve watched the “I Am a Child of God” thing about 10 times. Watching these Saints from all over the world singing in their own language and seeing them as pioneers that have maybe, if not literal descendants of these pioneers. But what they’re doing, and what they’re sacrificing has just been… I watched it over and over. I just think, man, I love these people. I never met them, but I’d love to. And to say that… I bet they’re making sacrifices to come into a relatively new faith to them in a country where it’s not well established. I just felt a lot of love for them.

Hank Smith: 38:27 That’s beautiful, John. I felt the exact same way. Right when they started, I thought, “Oh, man.”

John Bytheway: 38:33 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 38:33 Grab the Kleenex. I’m not going to make it. Beautiful, just beautiful. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 38:39 These people were so poor; yet, the Lord says three times in this Section… in verse three, he says, “Buy for the present time.” And then verse four, “Save all the money that you can,” and then verse six, “Purchase the lands.” These people were asked to sacrifice in a way that I don’t think we can appreciate because we have so many things around us, so much stuff. And yet, they were asked to save, save, save, buy, buy, buy, and I just can’t imagine how much they had to sacrifice. I just wanted to bear my testimony to that as well, and I say that in the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

Hank Smith: 39:16 Yeah, that is beautiful. In my book that I quoted earlier from my friend Patrick Mason, he says, “Despite the Lord’s consistent and stern warnings, we today have largely been seduced by the gods of affluence and ease.” 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 39:34 Wow.

Hank Smith: 39:34 These early people, they were not seduced by the gods of affluence or ease. So, Ron, I have a last question for you.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 39:45 Please.

Hank Smith: 39:46 You’re a Gospel Scholar. You’ve been studying and teaching these things for… I want to say… how many years now?

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 39:56 36 years.

Hank Smith: 39:57 You’ve been studying and teaching these things for over 35 years full-time. This has been your job full-time. You know as much as there is to know about Joseph Smith and these early Saints, both their highs and their lows. You certainly know as much as any critic of the early Saints of Joseph Smith would know, yet, here you are, faithful. So I would love to hear my friend Ron’s personal thoughts on Joseph Smith, the restoration, and what this has done for you personally.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 40:34 Wow. Thank you so much for asking. I grew up [inaudible 00:40:40] Joseph Smith. I just couldn’t wrap my mind around him. I even got hired to teach Seminary without having to explain Joseph Smith. So it made me study harder and harder and harder. And I read and read and read books and books and books and books. What I found is by the time I finally got my testimony, Joseph Smith saw me where I was standing and wanted the Spirit to see me. He was a Prophet of God. And, since then, I’ve studied more, of course. And I just want to bear my testimony: I know for myself beyond a shadow of a doubt, Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. He was the Lord’s prophet. He was an imperfect man, but I don’t focus on that. I focus on the great things he did 38 years of his life. He was amazing.

Joseph Smith had a way of tuning into the Spirit in a way that no one I’m aware of has had yet. He was just able to tune into the Spirit of the Lord and to know what to do, and to know the right thing to do all the time. And he learned from his lessons. If he made a mistake, he learned from the lesson, and he never did it again. 

Hank Smith: 41:38 Yeah.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 41:38 So I just want to bear my testimony that Joseph Smith was the prophet of God. As far as the Church goes, I know there’s a lot of other churches in the world today, and our Church isn’t very big compared to most of them. But I know for myself beyond a shadow of a doubt this Church is the Church of God. This is the way the Lord wants us to live. I bear my testimony that’s true, and I say it in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. 

Hank Smith: 42:00 Amen. Ron, thank you. Thank you so much for being with us today. Thank you for your time. Thank you for imparting onto John and I, and our listeners of your incredible knowledge and experience.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 42:17 Can I say one more thing, Hank?

Hank Smith: 42:19 Please, time is yours.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 42:19 I just read a book that had 18 chapters in it, each one written by a different person, critiquing Joseph Smith, and every single person had this or that to say about Joseph Smith. And my question to them is this, my question that they don’t answer themselves is this: what would Joseph Smith say about the chapters that they wrote about him? What would he say about the critiques they made of him? It’s really easy to critique someone who has passed away, and they’re in their grave, and they can’t talk back. But if Joseph Smith were here, what would he say?

I want to bear my testimony that I know he’s a prophet of God. I don’t care what anybody writes. I don’t care what anybody says. He’s a prophet of God, and everything that people write and say fits into that if they are telling the truth. And there’s so much out there that’s anti, negative right now that’s so bad. At the General Conference, my daughter and I went online and saw the different comments were made about the General Conference, and I couldn’t believe there wasn’t one positive remark about the General Conference. But there is for me. I know for myself Russell M Nelson is a prophet of God. I know for myself that the people [inaudible 00:43:24] are chosen by the Lord. I know for myself that the Church is true. And I say it in the name of Jesus Christ, amen. 

Hank Smith: 42:19 Amen.

John Bytheway: 43:32 Amen.

Hank Smith: 43:33 Ron, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Goodness. I wish I could tell my 20-something-old self when I first met you, “Hold onto this guy. He is something else.” John, we have another episode of followHIM in the books. I think I learned some things today that, honestly, are going to impact me for the rest of my life.

John Bytheway: 44:02 Yeah. Every time we get together, it’s a new appreciation, another layer of testimony. In this case, a renewed friendship, I haven’t seen Ron for a long time. 

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 44:15 So good to see you, John. So good to see you.

John Bytheway: 44:16 Really great to be with you. We love you. We do.

Dr. Ronald E. B…: 44:16 Yeah, I love both of you so much.

Hank Smith: 44:21 We do. We are a team. We want to thank Dr. Ron Bartholomew for coming today. We want to thank all of you for listening. We are so very grateful for your support. We want to thank our producers: Steve and Shannon Swarnson, our production crew: David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Kyle Nelson, Will Stotton, and Andrew Morton. We hope that you will join us on our next episode of followHIM.