Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway. 

Hank Smith: 00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh. 

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:14 As together, we followHIM. 

Hank Smith: 00:22 Hello my friends and welcome to another episode of followHIM. Our podcast is designed to help individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I am here with my co-host, John Bytheway. Welcome John.

John Bytheway: 00:35 Thank you Hank. Good to be here.

Hank Smith: 00:37 Yep, we are … Man, we keep coming back. Every week I think, “Are we going to come back for another episode? Do we have anybody listening?” And people are listening, so thank you so much. I never got a second date in high school, so this is … It’s nice that we keep coming back.

As you all know, if you’ve been listening to the podcast, we bring on a guest expert with each and every week to help us go through the sections of scripture for a sign for that Come, Follow Me lesson. And John, tell us who we have this week with us.

John Bytheway: 01:10 Oh, I’m very excited, not only about our guest, but about these sections. I’m sure he’s excited to talk about them. We have Scott Woodward. And I have a brief bio for Scott. He graduated with his PhD in Instructional Technology and Technology from Brigham Young University and has been teaching professionally in the Church Educational System for nearly two decades including Seminaries and Institutes, BYU Religious Education and currently a member of the BYU Idaho Religion Faculty. And Scott is currently a Managing Director of Doctrine and Covenants Central which is a rich resource of gospel scholarship on all things related to the Doctrine and Covenants. And I want to make sure we take a minute and talk about this because I absolutely love Book of Mormon Central and all the resources on there, and now, I’m so glad they’re starting Doctrine and Covenants Central. So we should probably have Scott tell us some more about that.

Hank Smith: 02:05 Yeah, absolutely. Scott, tell us about it. Welcome.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 02:08 Well, thank you. Good to be here. Thanks Hank. Thank John. Yeah, Doctrine and Covenants Central is kind of a sister to Book of Mormon Central. We’re just partners. We’re working together. And if you’ve ever seen Book of Mormon Central, we’re hoping that Doctrine and Covenants Central gets that kind of traction and scholarship and people come into it as a kind of a clearing house for, yeah, all things Doctrine and Covenants that is quality stuff.

Right now we’ve got the first 25 sections up with resources from Steven Harper, Susan Easton Black, Casey Griffiths. I also do some explainer videos for the sections. We’re covering historical background. We’re covering the people of the Doctrine and Covenants. We have a verse by verse commentary on there. We also have links to all kinds of scholarly articles if you want to dig a little deeper for each section of the Doctrine and Covenants. So yeah, we’re just trying to put together the one-stop shop for your Doctrine and Covenants needs.

Hank Smith: 03:16 Yeah, Scott, we here at the Follow Him podcast are big fans of Book of Mormon Central and now Doctrine and Covenants Central. We hope everybody listening will give Doctrine and Covenants Central a look this week and go through some of the amazing resources that are there. I use it quite a bit in just preparing for our podcast, in just looking ahead.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 03:38 I just looked at the stats. We’ve only been live for about a month, and there’s already been about a half a million visitors.

John Bytheway: 03:44 If you want to learn stuff, I mean look at everything that’s at our fingertips online. This is a great time to live.

Hank Smith: 03:54 Thank you so much for being here Scott, and thank you everybody for listening. Let’s jump in with Dr. Scott Woodward into these sections, Doctrine and Covenants 18 and 19. Now Scott, the previous sections before this talked about the Three and the Eight Witnesses, and now we’re moving forward with the translation of the Book of Mormon. They’ve now moved from the small town of Harmony Township, Pennsylvania. They’ve moved away because of persecution and difficulty back to New York, but not all the way to Manchester. They’re in Fayette where they’re going to complete the translation of the Book of Mormon. So what’s happening here in June of 1829 that would bring about this revelation? Why does Joseph even go to the Lord and who’s this to and what’s the circumstances around it?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 04:52 If we go back a little bit, if we go to March 1829, the Lord told Joseph in Section 5 that “this was the beginning of the rising up and the coming forth of my church” he said. He said it was “soon to occur.” He didn’t give a date. He just said, “It’s soon to happen.” This might be the very first moment where Joseph thought there’s going to be a church that comes of this.

When I was growing up, I thought that Joseph walked out of the Sacred Grove and he thought, “I’m going to build a church. I’m going to create … The Lord is going to restore His Church through me.” But it turns out when you look at the historical record that’s not true. All Joseph knew was he shouldn’t join any church and then he should just kind of wait. And then Moroni happened and then now this Book of Mormon. What he understands is my role is to bring forth the Book of Mormon. What he’s going to do after that he doesn’t know until Section 5.

Hank Smith: 05:43 Right. He’s going to move probably back to Harmony and live his life and be a farmer. 

Dr. Scott Woodward: 05:48 Right. Now the Lord’s talking about building a church, establishing His Church. This makes that link between the Book of Mormon and the Church in Joseph’s mind. So then fast forward two months later in May and the Lord speaks again of the prospect in Section 10 of establishing His Church.

It also appears that sometime, maybe at the end of May, Peter, James, and John, there’s different takes on when the Peter, James, and John restored the keys of the apostleship. But one convincing take for me is that it happened at the end of May. That’s not solid. We don’t know for sure. But that’s likely to have happened in May, which they would have given Joseph and Oliver the keys of the Kingdom, the keys of the Kingdom which have now the ability and power to organize a church, to establish the Kingdom of God on earth.

Now in the following month, June, now they go up to Fayette, and sometime after they move in with the Peter Whitmer family. Peter Whitmer Senior was kind enough to let Joseph and Oliver move in with the family and work on completing the Book of Mormon translation there. And …

Hank Smith: 07:04 Can you imagine, by the way, can you imagine telling your wife, “Hey, some of my friends are moving in. It’ll be fine.” My wife would be like, “And when do you move out? At what point do you move out with your friends? Go get an apartment.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 07:19 Yeah. If you’ve ever been in the Whitmer home, it’s not large.

Hank Smith: 07:23 Yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 07:24 It’s not a large home. So they’re in the Peter Whitmer home, and apparently not a lot of space there. Joseph and Oliver end up in what they call Father Whitmer’s chamber, his bedroom. They’re in Father Whitmer’s bedroom chamber and they’re praying. They’re praying about what next. There’s something about this church happening, and that they get a revelation, Joseph says, and this is mentioned in Section 128 of the Doctrine and Covenants. They hear the voice of God in the chamber of Father Whitmer, which then instructs them relative to the building up of the Church. 

The Lord’s voice included instructions about how to confer the Holy Ghost, about administering the sacrament, about ordaining one another Elders in the church, and yet they were told to wait. “Wait and defer your ordination,” the Lord said, “until we can get enough people together who’ve already been baptized to sustain you and accept you as their spiritual teachers,” which won’t happen until the next April. That’s going to be the day of the organization of the Church.

But this, suffice it to say that in June of 1829 the topic of establishing the Lord’s church is squarely on the minds of Joseph and Oliver, as well as David Whitmer. Now he’s getting in on this. He’s just received Section 14 on his behalf where the Lord invited him to participate in the work, and now he’s like, “How do we do this? How do we … Something about a church. What should we do?”

Now as they anticipate formally establishing the Church, Joseph asked Oliver, the most literate of the group, to prepare a kind of founding document that would outline the basic beliefs and practices of the Church, similar to other formal documents that other religions, other churches had at the time. But Oliver had never done that before. He’s never written a founding document for a church. He found that to be a very difficult task. And so discouraged, he comes to Joseph and says, “Can we get a little help and direction here from the Lord?”

So that’s going to be the first question the Lord’s going to answer in Section 18 verses 1 through 5 is what to do about this document. And then after that, the Lord’s going to speak to Oliver and David Whitmer about how they can help establish the Church. That’s what’s on their mind, and how do we get this document written and how do we go about establishing a church.

Hank Smith: 09:41 I think we’re seeing a pattern of try something real. Try. Then make sure you ask the Lord for help. Where it seems that in a lot of the sections we’ve covered here it’s the idea of the Lord’s like, “No, give it your best effort. Then when you fail, then come to me. But I really want you to put forth some effort here.” I can’t imagine if someone … If my friend came to me and said, “Hey, can you throw together some founding documents, we just need to know,” and I’d be, “What?”

John Bytheway: 10:16 I would just google: founding documents and … 

Hank Smith: 10:19 What has anybody else done? No one has done this before, so you’re going to be the first.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 10:25 And Oliver’s like 22 year sold.

Hank Smith: 10:27 When I was 22, we won’t even discuss. 

Dr. Scott Woodward: 10:30 I mean John was probably writing founding documents for churches, but the normal 22 year old was not.

Hank Smith: 10:36 Didn’t Oliver go to the Book of Mormon?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 10:39 Shall we dive in?

Hank Smith: 10:40 Yeah, let’s jump in, yeah.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 10:41 Yeah. So let’s pick it up in verse one. The Lord is addressing Oliver’s question about the document directly here. He says, “Now, behold, because of the thing which you my servant, Oliver Cowdery, have desire to know of me, I give unto you these words. Behold, I have manifested unto you by my spirit in many instances that the things which you have written are true.”

Well, what’s Oliver been writing? Well, they’re just wrapping up the Book of Mormon here. Oliver has been scribing now for the last … Well, he came on April 7th is when they started. So this is now into June. He’s been writing the Book of Mormon. And the Lord says, “The spirit has told you in many instances that the things which you have written are true. Wherefore you know that they are true,” now watch this follow up, “and if they’re true, behold, I give unto you a commandment that you rely upon the things which are written, for in them, in the Book of Mormon text are all things written concerning the foundation of my church, my gospel, and my rock.” “ You want to know how to form a church, Oliver Cowdery? How about go to the text of the Book of Mormon you’ve been writing. You know it’s true. Now go rely on it.”

So you’re absolutely right Hank. From this Oliver is going to write. His document is going to be called The Articles of the Church of Christ, and over … Let’s see. I want to say over 60% of that document is direct quotations from the Book of Mormon, heavily from 3rd Nephi and Moroni where there’s kind of instructions where Jesus teaches about how to baptize, where we get the organization of the 12, where we get the instructions in Moroni about how to do the sacrament, where we get instructions about how to ordain Teachers and Priests and Elders.

And so this is going to become, actually I don’t want to go too far into the future, but this is going to become the prelude to Section 20 actually. Oliver’s document then becomes the next stepping stone till we get our founding text in Section 20. So the Lord’s guidance here really bears fruit.

Hank Smith: 12:39 I really like this. And maybe this is just my language, but, “Lord, what should we do”? How about we look at the scriptures? How about we do that? I don’t know. I don’t know. Any other ideas out there, but let’s go to the scripture. It seems to me that that might be a good answer for a lot of us. When we go to the Lord with questions, he might say to us, “Have you tried the scriptures? Have you looked? You know they’re true. Have you tried them?”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 13:04 If you know they’re true, how about rely on them?

John Bytheway: 13:06 I think that was a funny comment of Hugh Nibley once that if you really want to see an angel, if you see one, you know that all he’s going to do is quote scripture, so you might as well just read the scriptures. 

Hank Smith: 13:16 Because, yeah, save the angel the trouble.

John Bytheway: 13:20 Yeah. And I think that, thank you Scott for saying that about the book of Moroni because I’ve always thought Moroni 6 is like a mini Handbook of Instruction. It’s got ministering in there and take the role and number everybody and make sure they’re praying, and oh, church courts. It’s all in there. And previous to that, how to bless, how to baptize, how to ordain. That’s really nice. So he just, “Oh, okay, well, I already wrote that. I’ll go back and find that.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 13:52 That’s right. Very recently he wrote that. Yeah. Now this is kind of a cool thought too that D&C 18 makes clear that this church is very much a Book of Mormon-based church, how about that? Is it interesting that when Oliver needed help in writing the foundational doctrine, the Lord didn’t say, “Well, go grab your Bible and see what you need to do.” No, instead, he said, “Rely on the Book of Mormon.”

Sometimes we like to talk about how our church is a New Testament church. But it’s the Book of Mormon where we got the original blueprint for our church. Now, it’s true that we had New Testament angels, John the Baptist and Peter, James, and John from the New Testament time period that restore priesthood keys, but it’s the Book of Mormon where we’re going to get the scripture … or sorry, the structure, it’s from the Book of Mormon we’re going to get the structure, the priesthood offices, the ordinances and the core doctrines of the 1830 church. Then we’re going to build out from there, but that’s the original nugget, is a Book of Mormon-based church with New Testament keys.

Hank Smith: 14:54 That’s interesting because when I was a missionary, it was very much Jesus established his church, it fell away, and we brought back the New Testament Church. Where you’re saying, “Yeah, in a way we did that, but the Book of Mormon was a big part of this.” The Book of Mormon is saying, “Hey, what do you want to restore? Here’s everything you need to restore.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 15:17 That’s right. It’s like a hybrid. It’s like a New Testament keys of authority with Book of Mormon structure ordinances and doctrine.

Hank Smith: 15:24 See, this is why we bring experts on John.

John Bytheway: 15:26 Yeah, this is a great insight of Oliver. You’ve been writing this. You’ve been doing this scribe stuff. What have you been writing? Oh yeah, they did talk about that, they did talk about that. And I have often had students say, “Well, how come the sacrament prayers are written in the Book of Moroni and also written in Section 20?” And it’s like, yeah, well, this helps answer that question. Oliver went to the Book of Mormon to learn how to write Section 20. Is that a good way to look at it Scott?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 16:00 That’s right. Well, yeah. So Oliver’s going to go to the Book of Mormon, create his document, The Articles of the Church of Christ. And then Joseph Smith’s going to take The Articles of the Church of Christ, pray about it, add a bunch of stuff but retain a lot of what Oliver was able to cull from the Book of Mormon. That’s right.

Hank Smith: 16:14 Wow. And John, you’ve written a book on Moroni. You just think of Moroni thinking of having a church, a group of believers all together. Moroni’s going, “Lucky.” He’s putting this all down. “Okay, when you all have a big group of believers together, this is what you need to do. Don’t mind me. I’m all alone out here by myself.” Just, that makes it even a little more special there, that Moroni was the one to put it together.

John Bytheway: 16:41 But maybe, yeah, that maybe Moroni’s thinking, “You’re going to need this in the future. And I had always thought of it for all of us, but maybe, yeah, Oliver, you’re going to need this in the future. This is how we put things together. This is how their names were taken that they might be remembered and nourished by the good word. This is how we bless. This is how we baptize. This is how we bless the sacrament.” I mean amazing that he’s sharing all that. And clearly under inspiration, they’re going to need this in the future.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 17:11 Isn’t it interesting that Moroni says that he didn’t plan on writing the Book of Moroni. He’s like, “Well, since I’m not dead yet-

John Bytheway: 17:18 I know.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 17:19 “I’m going to put some more stuff in.” And that becomes the basis for our church in the 1830s. Amazing, amazing.

John Bytheway: 17:24 Aren’t we glad he wrote those last chapters. He says, “Well, I’m not dead yet.” Like Moroni 1, he’s like, “I have not as yet perished, so I write a few more things for the benefit of my brother in the late nights in some future day.” How different would the Book of Mormon be without those chapters. I’ve always thought, I don’t … It’s hard to know. Did he know this was common? This was my father’s book. This was his life’s work and he’s been killed in battle, and now I’ve got to do this. I mean, if we take him literally, “I am alone,” he says twice, “all my kinsfolk.” He’s got nobody. He could have been a little bit, “Why did you do this to me Lord? I’ve got nobody.” But look at what he does for future generations. Yeah, Moroni, not just Captain Moroni war chapters but Moroni on top of the temples is heroic to me.

Hank Smith: 18:15 Yeah. And this makes it even more so. I always laugh at my college students. I probably shouldn’t do that as a professor. But when Moroni says, “I have not friends nor wither to go,” I’m like, “Hey, he knows your life. He has … ” All right.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 18:29 We’re able to get so much homework done. 

Hank Smith: 18:31 Yeah, that’s how you get beautiful things written, it’s you have not friends, nor anywhere to go.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 18:37 So yeah. So then it’s going to shift from, okay, Oliver you got your marching orders with the document, and then he’s going to talk to Oliver and David Whitmer who’s also eager to help somehow with this organization of this church. Verse 6 is key where it says, “The world is … ” Here’s the need, “The world is ripening in iniquity, and it must need to be that the children of men are stirred up unto repentance, both the gentiles and also the house of Israel.” And then he goes on to say, verse 9, “Oliver Cowdery, I speak unto you and David Whitmer by way of commandment, for behold I command all men everywhere to repent and I speak unto you even as unto Paul mine apostle, for you are called even with that same calling with which he was called.”

Now Oliver and David, neither of them are apostles. What he means is you are called to do what Paul the apostle did, which is what? What makes Paul unique? Well, Paul was the apostle to the gentiles as well as to the house of Israel. “So you are the one who … you, Oliver and David, do what Paul did in declaring the gospel not just to the house of Israel but to everybody. Everybody needs to repent. And so this is your marching order. You want to help me build a church? Start crying repentance because the world needs it like crazy.” And then he gives a rationale for repentance. And these are some of the most powerful verses in section 18. In my estimation verses 10 through 16, 10 through 16, amazing.

So here’s the question. What should someone remember? When you’re called to invite people to repent, what should you remember? If you’re a young missionary, if you’re parents, if you’re church leader, what should you remember when calling people to repentance? And here’s what the Lord says, verse 10. “Remember that the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.” I want you to think about those people. They are worth saving. They are worth your best efforts to help them repent. And then he gives a sacred equation. I like that phrase. I think it’s a Steven Harper phrase. He gives a sacred equation in verse 11 of how much a soul is worth.

So he’s going to say that the worth of each soul is directly proportionate to the price paid to redeem it. Can we put it like that? I’ll say that one more time. The worth of each soul is directly proportionate to the price paid to redeem it.

Hank Smith: 20:59 Scott that reminds me of my economics class. What is the value of any item? It’s what someone is willing to pay for it, what is someone willing to pay for it.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 21:11 Here’s the sacred equation, verse 11. “For behold, the Lord your redeemer suffered death in the flesh wherefore he suffered the pain of all men.” So he equates his death in the flesh with the pain or the punishment of all men. “That all men might repent and come unto Him. And He had risen again from the dead that He might bring all men unto Him on conditions of repentance. And how great is His joy in the soul that repenteth.”

The worth of your soul was openly announced on Calvary, isn’t that powerful? Christ’s infinite sacrifice declared your infinite worth. That’s why you should call people to repentance, because if they repent, they can access the power of my atoning sacrifice and land their souls in the Kingdom of God, which he goes on to talk about in verse 15 and 16. But wow, powerful.

John Bytheway: 22:04 It reminds me of … I just got done teaching this a couple of days ago, but when Alma gets done with Korihor and then goes to see the Zoramites in Alma 31. And he hears the prayer on the Rameumptom. And then his prayer to God is the first part of his prayer is, “How long do we have to behold such gross wickedness?” And then by the end of his prayer one of the last things he says is, “Behold their souls are precious and many of them are our brethren.” And you kind of see him soften during the prayer and kind of come to that same message, their souls are precious. So he claps his hands on the others, laying on of hands I suppose, and they go out to preach. But that’s the same motivation. Their souls are precious. Let’s go try the virtue of the word of God with these Zoramites.

Hank Smith: 23:01 It seems very similar to the message of Jonah. I like what you said here Scott. These people are worth saving. They are worth saving. So as a missionary or as a parent or as a church leader in any role, the people in your stewardship, the people in your Sunday School class, the people in your seminary class, your own children, these people are worth saving, they are worth this effort.

I think, as I’m hearing you teach Scott, I think that would in calling people to repentance, I can sometimes see me, myself, and I don’t know if this, you two do this, but I can get a little harsh sometimes in calling people to repentance, and probably when I get too harsh, when I’m getting a little too flippant with it, it’s when I’ve forgotten their worth.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 23:50 This frames how you approach calling people to repentance, doesn’t it? This tempers that message in some way or at least softens your approach. It’s going to be one of persuasion. He’s going to talk later in this section about convincing in verse 44, about convincing people. You’re trying to win them over with persuasion and convincing, all your best efforts to help them repent. And whatever efforts you can do to that end, Jesus loves that. He says, “That’s why I died for them, so that they could repent. And therefore my joy will be great with them and your joy will be great with them if you can help people come into my Father’s Kingdom that way.”

John Bytheway: 24:28 I was just marking this before we met today in verse 13, verse 15, verse 16, just underlined the joy, joy, joy word coming up there. This is calling repentance. We maybe don’t think of as a joyous work, but I like the Bible Dictionary definition of repentance is “a fresh view about God, about oneself, about the world.” And I think that was it Elder Holland said in a conference talk was a Broken Things to Mend, he said that “repentance is perhaps the most hopeful and encouraging word in the Christian vocabulary.” So I like that. Let’s rethink what repentance means and it ought to be associated with joy and hope.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 25:11 If we could remove the stigma of repentance, we would have won a great victory for God’s Kingdom. We rejoice in faith when people stand up and share their testimony. We rejoice in baptism. We invite everyone to come and watch. We rejoice when the Holy Ghost is given. But repentance is like, “Oh, you had to repent. I am so sorry,” or whatever.

What if we celebrated repentance like we did faith, baptism, and the Holy Ghost? I mean it’s part of the same gospel rock that comes from the Book of Mormon. I mean, this is what the Lord is saying here. “Build this church upon my gospel and my rock. It’s joyful.” This leads to happy things. It leads to the Kingdom of God. That’s nothing to be embarrassed about.

Hank Smith: 25:52 Repentance is for everyone. It is for everyone every day.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 25:56 It’s joyful.

Hank Smith: 25:57 And it’s joyful. 

John Bytheway: 25:58 Yeah, and it’s joyful.

Hank Smith: 25:59 In fact the Lord says, “If you spent every day of your life doing this, every day of your life, and you bring one soul to me, it’s worth it. It’s absolutely worth it.” And I don’t know if I would … I don’t know. Maybe I show my secular worldly side too much in this podcast John, but I don’t know if I would think, “Oh, that was worth it.” I spend every day crying repentance and one person listen to me. And it might even just be me. I might be the one person I convert.

John Bytheway: 26:30 Yeah, I think of Abinadi in that case. Alma was cast out. The last thing Abinadi hears is, “Go get Alma and kill him.” And Abinadi may have thought, “No, I got through to nobody,” at that moment. Yeah, those are some …

Hank Smith: 26:48 That had some impact.

John Bytheway: 26:50 Yeah, huge impact. Abinadi, you could trace Abinadi’s impact through the rest of the entire Book of Mormon. It goes from Alma the Elder to Alma the Younger to Helaman to Helaman to Nephi, Nephi, Nephi, Amos, Amos, Ammaron, Mormon, Moroni, all the way to the end because of Abinadi.

Hank Smith: 27:10 Can you do that faster? Could you … Could you please do that a little faster?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 27:13 And then from Moroni we got this great text that becomes the foundation for our church, and here we are thanks to.

John Bytheway: 27:19 And that goes back to Abinadi and Alma the Elder, a young man who believed what he was saying. What joy Abinadi could have.

Hank Smith: 27:29 Yeah, that was one soul, one single soul.

I love the spirit of this, is that people are worth saving, and one soul can make all the difference in God’s Kingdom, just one soul. I kind of think of this as like the … what did Elder Maxwell call the “economics of heaven,” that it’s not in cash value here. It’s the worth of souls that God cares about. And I just need to be better. I don’t know about you too, but I need to be better about seeing everyone as worth saving. Everyone is worth saving, because in my judgmental mind and heart, I sometimes write people off. I don’t know if you guys … I’m sure neither of you have ever.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 28:17 Nope, never done that. Never done that Hank, so yeah, you’ve got a problem brother.

Hank Smith: 28:22 Right. But I’m going to have joy in my repentance.

John Bytheway: 28:27 Yeah, we’ll joy too. There’s a footnote here that I love, and that’s in verse 13, “How great is his joy in the soul that repenteth,” and it takes you to Luke 15 where we’ve got these three stories of lost things being found and the joy in those lost things being found, the lost sheep, the lost coin, the lost sons, the prodigal. And it starts with, “This man receives sinners and eateth with them.” So here Jesus gives these three … Don’t you rejoice when you find something that was lost? Isn’t that a source of joy? So I love that footnote there. I had to underline. Luke, Luke 15–lost things.

Hank Smith: 29:09 John, I’m going to write that in, so when I teach Luke 15 I can come back to this section. Because I remember, it’s the lost sheep. And why would you care about one sheep? You have 99 others, right?

John Bytheway: 29:23 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 29:24 And you’ve got to count those sheep. No one looks at 99 sheep and goes, “Where’s Bob?” You’ve got to count them. You got to look for them. And that’s part of what you mentioned Moroni giving us in the Book of Mormon, is in our church we number people.

John Bytheway: 29:38 Yeah. They are numbered and remembered and nourished by the good word. I mean, that’s, boy, thank you for giving us that. This is why we minister. We actually take the role. We actually take records. I mean, what a … It’s kind of a burden. Imagine, keeping track of everybody. I just wonder, and maybe Scott can shed some light on that, when did Joseph went, “No, you’re supposed to keep records of everything.” When did that happen?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 30:05 That was on the very first day, the very first verse of when the church was organized, Doctrine and Covenants 21 verse 1, the Lord first words out of his mouth, “There shall be a record kept among you.” First words out of his mouth when the Church is organized. Amazing.

Hank Smith: 30:21 Yeah. And he’s probably saying like, “You guys, you humans are just not great at remembering things. We are going to write this stuff down.” As a missionary there were some tiring days, and as a church leader or just a Sunday School Teacher or a Nursery Leader, these are … Sometimes gets tiring, but if you can remember that word, remember that what we’re doing is important, “the worth of souls is great in the sight of God.” It is worth the effort.

I remember a bishop told me once. One of my favorite bishops I’ve ever met, he came home from his interviews one day and he told me he pulled into his driveway and turned his car off and he said, “I’m just going to close my eyes for a second. I’m really tired.” So he said he closed his eyes in his car and he woke up four or five hours later when his wife is knocking on the window, “What are you doing out here?” And he said, “Oh, I just went to close my eyes.” She said, “It’s past midnight. I didn’t know you were home. I was wondering where you were. Come in. I’ve been calling you.” And then he said this. He said, “I am tired in His work but I am never tired of His work.”

John Bytheway: 31:37 Oh, wow.

Hank Smith: 31:38 I really appreciated that. I am tired in His work. Yes, I am tired in His work, but I am not tired of this work because of verse 10, the worth of souls.

John Bytheway: 31:47 That’s a good one to remember because as we’re recording this in 2021, the youth theme is “Be Not Weary in Well-doing.” And I thought it’s … yeah, there’s a lot of things we’re tired of, but don’t ever get tired of well-doing. That’s a good way to put it.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 32:03 Here at BYU Idaho where I am there’s the Spencer W. Kimball building is right next door to the Taylor building where I work and there’s a display that has President Kimball’s shoes in there, and he has this great saying where he says, “My life is like my shoes. The sole is worn out in the service of God.”

Hank Smith: 32:25 Oh. Yeah. Oh, I got to remember that. I got to remember that the next time I’m a little tired, got to be like President Kimball’s shoes. I think Joseph Smith is going to end up saying the same thing from Liberty Jail, isn’t it? Isn’t he going to say we should waste and wear out our lives in God’s service? I think that’s section 1:20 … I want to say 1:23. Yeah, there it is, verse 13. “We should waste and wear out our lives into bringing to light all the hidden things of darkness.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 32:59 So verses 17 through 24 give more details about, okay, look, you have my gospel rock before you, and then by that he’s alluding to the Book of Mormon. You’ve got everything it takes to call people to repentance, and you need revelation, verse 18, to do so, and don’t forget faith, hope, and charity in verse 19. Otherwise, you’re going to stink at this work. You will … If you don’t have that, you have nothing. You can do nothing. You cannot call people to repentance without faith, hope, and charity. Such a cool connection.

And don’t get out there fighting other churches, verse 20. Don’t do that. That’s the spirit of the age. Don’t participate in that. Fight against the church of the devil for sure, but other churches, Christ has a very charitable view toward them. And in Section 10 and we talked about that with J.B. Haws, he has a very charitable view of fellow Christians doing their very best to follow Christ. Don’t contend with them. Just … Here’s what you should do, verse 21, “Take upon you the name of Christ. Speak truth in soberness. Just speak the truth in soberness. [coated in faith, hope, and charity] And as many as repent and are baptized in my name . . . and endure to the end will be saved”  My name is the name. If they have that name, they are allowed entrance into the Kingdom of God,” he goes on to say.

And then a big announcement. All of a sudden, verse 26, “And now, behold, there are others who are called to declare my gospel both unto gentile and unto Jew,” like Paul did. And then he numbers in verse 27–twelve. There will be twelve. “And the Twelve shall be my disciples, and they shall take upon them my name;  and the Twelve are they who shall desire to take upon my name with full purpose of heart,”  And if they do that, then they are called. Verse 28, “to preach my gospel to every creature.”

This is the beginning … It’s our first inclination, first indication that there will be a Quorum of the Twelve. He calls them disciples, a Book of Mormon word. That’s a Book of Mormon word. There’s going to be Twelve Disciples. Oliver and Joseph would have just translated that a few weeks ago about 3rd Nephi where the Twelve Disciples were called by Jesus. And now he says we’re going to do that again. You see, Book of Mormon-based church here. “We’re going to do that again, and they’re going to be the ones who will,” and then he gives their duties. And those are the duties the disciples were given in the Book of Mormon, baptized in verse 28-9, ordain others verse 20 … let’s see, 32, to ordain priests and teachers and to … Let’s see … Yeah, that’s it. So” ordain priests, teachers, baptize, and do that according to the gifts and callings of God with you.”

So we’re going to do Book of Mormon disciples again. That’s what we’re going to do, twelve of them. Now, in 1835, when this actually comes to pass, Joseph is now calling them Twelve Apostles. So that connection is made concretely in 1835. That’s exciting. “It’s not just going to be on your shoulders Oliver and David to declare repentance. I’m going to get twelve other disciples to help with this, and that’s how this church is going to be built.”

Hank Smith: 36:05 Wow. Scott, I had not realized how Book of Mormon-based the Church is until we’re going through Section 18 and you’re pointing this out, that’s Book of Mormon, that’s Book of Mormon, that’s Book of Mormon. And I bet it’s going to happen in Section 20, isn’t it? When we read Section 20, we’re going to go, “Oh, wow, they’re getting all this from the Book of Mormon.” So now the Book of Mormon’s almost ready to complete. Let’s go guys. Now we have something in place. We can move forward.

I also love how patient the Lord is laying this out, because he mentions the Twelve here, but we actually don’t get a Quorum of the Twelve until when?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 36:44 February 14th, Valentine’s Day, it’s the way God tells us he loves us, is he gives us a Quorum of the Twelve on 14th of February 1835.

Hank Smith: 36:53 So this is, what? Five and a half years, six years before that he’s kind of just given the bits and pieces. He seems to do this with Joseph a lot. I’m going to give you a little bit. We’re going to let that simmer. I’m going to leave you a little bit.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 37:05 Line upon line, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 37:06 So patient. I can picture me. Joseph’s in the Sacred Grove and I’m going, “Okay, you got to get Personal Progress ready, but then we’re going to get rid of that, and we’re going to replace that with a new program. There’s got to be barcodes on the temple recommends, remember that.” And instead he’s like, “Let’s go nice and slow here.” It teaches me a little bit about parenting and teaching. Let’s go, just give you a little. Let that … I want you to be good at this. I like how you said that. If you don’t have faith, hope, and charity, you’re really going to stink at this work without that. So will you just work on that for a little while? And yes, we’re going to have Twelve Apostles in a couple of years, in six or so years.

What does the Quorum of the Twelve have to do with David and Oliver?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 37:55 Yeah. So then the Lord, another surprise in this section is he tells them in verse 37, “Now, behold, I give unto you, Oliver Cowdery, and also David Whitmer, that you [you two] shall search out the Twelve, who shall have the desires of which I have spoken.”  “I would like you to be our search committee to find the Twelve Disciples.” And Oliver is going to say that from that moment until February 14th 1835 he says, “our minds,” meaning him and David, “our minds have been on a constant stretch to find who these twelve were.” So it was a five-plus year process for him to say okay.

Hank Smith: 38:38 Every time someone joins the church, David and Oliver get together. “What do you think?”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 38:38 “What do you think?”

Hank Smith: 38:44 “I feel good about him. What’s his name?” “Brigham.” “Oh, I like him. Let’s put him on our list.”

Dr. Scott Woodward: 38:49 “He’s got spunk.” Yeah, that’s right.

John Bytheway: 38:51 Well, I’m struck with this idea that in verse 26 there are others who are called. It’s kind of like I know who they are. Now, you guys go find them. And it almost kind of hints of a pre-mortal for the nation thing. Oh, there’s others. That’s past tense. They’re already called. “Now, your job, Oliver, David, go find them, and you’ll know them,” what does he say, “by their desires and their works you shall know them,” and obviously some inspiration. But it’s interesting to me.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 39:21 Yeah. And then he tells them, “When you find them, I want you to give them this section, have them read Section 18.” This is the apostolic charge. Their job will be to call people to repentance, and they’re going to need to have these instructions of how to do that. I mean, it’s just so good. “Have them read this,” and then verse 40, here’s his directions, his instructions directly to them, “fall down and worship the Father in my name. And you must preach unto the world saying: You must repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.” Everyone needs this. Go convince. Go persuade. This is verse 44, the promise. “And by your hands I will work a marvelous work among the children of men unto the convincing of many of their sins, that they may come unto repentance, and that they may come unto the kingdom of my Father.”

A great assurance there. So Oliver and David will hand this. By the way Martin Harris gets added to this group after the three witnesses happen shortly after Section 18. He will be added to this list of the search committee. Actually kind of cool story that happens then on the 14th of February 1835. Joseph Smith stands up and says to a group of those who had been to Zion’s Camp. He says to them, “Our first business of this meeting is for the Three Witnesses of the Book of Mormon to pray each one of them and then to proceed to choose twelve men from the Church as Apostles to go to all nations, kindreds, tongues and people.”

At that point the Three Witnesses unite in prayer. Then they were given a blessing by the First Presidency, the Three Witnesses were, and it’s at that point where they proceeded to make choice of the Twelve right in that meeting, so.

Hank Smith: 41:06 Oh wow. Man, this is … Six years in the making, this has got to be a big day. I’m excited when we get there. We have a lot of Sections between now and then. That’s what’s amazing to me, is we’re not even close to there. Where are we even going to get to when we get to 1835? We’re in the Sections … I’m looking at like 110, right, or just before 110. I mean this is a long ways away, and he’s already making plans for it, the Lord is. Man, the Lord is good about planning ahead and thinking ahead.

When you said that I’m going to work a marvelous work by your hands, I think of every general conference when we hear from our apostles, I feel like Section or verse 44 fits. It’s a marvelous thing and it convinces many of their sins. I know of one thing that’s going to happen every time I sit down to watch general conference, is I’m going to be … I’m going to be repenting. And it’s a joyful thing as we talked about earlier. But I know that when Elder Holland stands up or Elder Andersen or Elder Uchtdorf or and it’s gonna strike me at the heart and go, “Man, I’ve got to … I mean, I’ve got to do better.” And it seems like the Lord is kind of previewing that, that by the Apostles it’s going to be a marvelous work. And I think anybody who’s listened and had a General Conference talk strike them to the core is probably feeling the power of section 18 there.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 42:43 And it’s that kind of thing that builds the Church. That’s the rock upon which this is built. I mean, I dozens and dozens of times have been pricked in my heart because of what an Apostle has taught or their testimony given, and thank God for that. Where would I be if I didn’t have Apostles to convince me of my sins in their kind persuasive way? I am grateful to the core.

Hank Smith: 43:10 I feel like that they have this Section in mind as they give their General Conference. I can tell that they love. They have faith, hope, and charity. They see the worth of souls as great in the sight of God. But they don’t shrink back from calling people to repent and keep the commandments. Man. 

Dr. Scott Woodward: 43:30 So great.

John Bytheway: 43:31 I think two things come to mind. President Eyring said once, Henry B. Eyring that, “Do not be surprised when you feel the Spirit if it’s accompanied by what you feel is a rebuke.” And I feel that at General Conference I’m fired up and I want to repent at the same time.

And then Elder Neal A. Maxwell said once, “When conscience calls to us from the next ridge, it is not solely to scold but also to beckon.” And when I share that with teenagers, for those of you watching on video, I do this is the scolding symbol. When conscience calls to us from the next ridge, is not solely to scold but also to beckon, to say come up a little higher, which is a joyous invitation.

Dr. Scott Woodward: 44:22 Love that.

Hank Smith: 44:24 Yeah, I’m really just overwhelmed here with what I’ve seen in section 18. The Atonement, which we’re going to learn about in the next Section, was such an individual experience that you can almost just feel it jumping off the page. The Savior’s love for each individual. He’s still a one-by-one Savior as we learn about in the Book of Mormon.

John Bytheway: 44:45 Scott, I love this idea, and I think our listeners might want to hear more. Verse 20, “Contend against no church, save it be the church of the devil,” which tells us there are churches out there which are not the church of the devil. And the Book of Mormon is kind of a very … if it had a personality, it’s very this or this, it’s very black and white, and it has Nephi’s vision of Lehi’s dream when he says, “They’re saved two churches only, the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil.” And my students bristle at that and I bristle at that because, and this helps us help soften that and illuminates that idea.

I know that Stephen Robinson would say, “It’s more about those who love light more than darkness.” Could you comment some more on, because they hadn’t even organized the Church yet, right?

Dr. Scott Woodward: 45:39 That’s a great question John. Actually I teach World Religions here at BYU Idaho. I’m passionate about this. Our goal is to see the good and the true and the beautiful in other religions, and there’s just so much goodness out there. The Lord acknowledges it here, in Section 10, elsewhere. I know there was a First Presidency Statement that was read with JB Haws. Go check that episode out if you haven’t read that. It’s so good. But here’s another one. President Oaks actually came here to BYU Idaho in 2014 and he commented about the two churches verse in verse Nephi 14:10 and he says this. He says, “Nephi was told by revelation that there were only two churches, the church of the Lamb of God and the church of the devil.” He says, “This description suggests the contrast between those who believe in God and seek to serve him according to their best understanding and those who reject the existence of God.”

So I think the church of the Lamb of God according to President Oak’s definition there is large. That includes so many. That includes Roman Catholics and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists and Methodists and Presbyterians. The church of the Lamb of God is large. Those who are trying to serve God according to their best understanding. Jesus says, “Don’t contend against them.” That’s don’t fight. Just faith, hope, and charity, and speak the truth in soberness. And some of them will join this Church.

Hank Smith: 47:08 Oh, I can’t tell you how much I love this. I’m all for the idea of if we’ve got energy to fight something, let’s fight something evil. 

John Bytheway: 47:19 No kidding. 

Hank Smith: 47:20 Are we going after each other or, like you said, the Catholic man in my neighborhood or why am I … On my mission we call it bible bashing. I don’t know if they still call it that. Why am I doing that? Because there’s an actual enemy out there. 

Dr. Scott Woodward: 47:38 Let’s fight him. 

Hank Smith: 47:39 Yeah, let’s fight him. Let’s fight evil. Let’s fight against pornography. Let’s fight against human trafficking. Let’s fight against evil instead of … I see why the Lord is saying almost like don’t put your energy there. Put it over here. There’s a bigger fight going on over here.

Please join us for Part II of this podcast.