John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two of Dr. Ryan Davis, Amos and Obadiah.

John Bytheway: 00:05 You know what this reminds me of? The parables in Matthew 25. The last one is separating the sheep and the goats. And it’s easy to think sheep, goats, righteous, wicked. But when you actually look at it it’s those who served and those who didn’t. It’s a more specific kind of righteous or wicked. When saw we the naked and afraid or in prison and fed. And then the opposite is also in there. And inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these, you’ve done it unto me. But then it also says, inasmuch as ye have not done it, ye have not done it unto me. And it’s not just about wicked/righteous, the sheep and the goats, it’s about serving people. That parable’s stronger when you realize it’s taking care of others.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 00:53 That’s excellent. So in the Old Testament, they use the idea of justice and righteousness as the very purpose of what the covenant people of the Lord are here to do. So in Genesis 18:19, it talks about one of the reasons that Abraham is chosen is because he’s going to walk the way of the Lord by doing justice and righteousness. And this is what we’re here to do for the world. We’re here to make the world a better place, as Jesus said, right? We’re the salt of the earth. That the whole world should taste a little better because we’re here. Don’t worry about high blood pressure or anything. It’s going to taste better.

  01:34 And we’re here to make a difference in the world. And it reminds me, there’s a quote from Elder Holland from the April, 2020 conference where in this talk it’s called A Perfect Brightness of Hope. He talks about the blessings of the gospel in the last 200 years, from 1820 from the first vision on what wonderful blessings the restoration has brought to the world. And then he looks forward and thinks, what other blessings, what will the next 200 years bring for the world? And I love what he says, this is just part of it. But he says, “Thus our look back at 200 years of God’s goodness to the world. But what of our look ahead, we still have hopes that have not yet been fulfilled even as we speak. We are waging an all hands on deck war with COVID-19. And he says later, when we have conquered this, and we will, may we be equally committed to freeing the world from the virus of hunger, freeing neighborhoods and nations from the virus of poverty.

  02:44 May we hope for schools where students are taught, not terrified they will be shot. And for the gift of personal dignity, for every child of God unmarred by any form of racial, ethnic, or religious prejudice, undergirding all of this is our relentless hope for a greater devotion to the two greatest of all commandments. To love God by keeping his counsel and to love our neighbors by showing kindness and compassion, patience and forgiveness. These two divine directives are still and forever will be the only real hope we have for giving our children a better world than the one they now know.” I mean that’s powerful of course in a way that only Elder Holland can be. But what struck me about that is when we think about the blessings of the gospel for the world, I don’t always think about those things. And what Elder Holland is telling us is that the great issues of our world, of poverty, of racism, of hunger, of keeping people safe, these are the issues for the disciples of Christ.

  04:00 If there is anyone in this world that is supposed to tackle these issues head on, it’s those that have made a covenant relationship with their Heavenly Father and with Jesus Christ. This is what we’re here to do and this is what the Lord is trying to teach through Amos to the people of the northern kingdom of Israel that you are different. You were chosen, you were rescued from Egyptian slavery so that you would feel what real love is like and you are going to take that love to the world by rescuing people in their hard times. And when people feel that love, they’re going to want to join with us. They’re going to say, you know what? I want to be a part of this. I want to do some good in this world. How do I get involved? Why are you like this? And we can tell them, I’m like this because this is what God has done for me.

  04:51 This is why I do it. And then people will come to Christ. They’ll feel not just our love but his as well and they’ll want to do this for others. In the Old Testament, they talk about this justice and righteousness. In the Book of Mormon, they use a little bit different language. They often talk about doing good. And I think that these are the same ideas, those of King Benjamin, we’ve talked about King Benjamin a lot. And I think that that has a lot of application to what we’re learning here in Amos. That the people of King Benjamin, after they had felt God’s goodness when they had realized what God has done for them, it says the spirit of the Lord had changed their hearts. They had no more disposition to do evil, but to do good continually. And that’s what it means to be a disciple. That we’ve realized what God has done for us and now we want to do good for others. We want to stand alongside Jesus in helping him do good here in this world.

John Bytheway: 05:50 I think of the talk that President Nelson gave in May to the young single adults. Remember at the very end he talked about these three identities. You’re a child of God, you’re a child of the covenant and you’re a disciple of Christ. That sounds like what Amos is teaching us, what King Benjamin is teaching us. This is what it means to be a disciple. As you have said, this is what Jesus did. This is what we’re supposed to do.

Hank Smith: 06:18 And I’ve noticed Ryan, the rest of two is the Lord is unhappy and  there’s consequences coming for Israel.

John Bytheway: 06:26 After the roar.

Hank Smith: 06:28 Yeah.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 06:29 That’s one of the things that Amos is here… I mean, Amos kind of gets a bad rap as being a all doom and gloom. He’s a bit like poor Jacob who is given the tough assignment that he has to tell them everything that they’re doing wrong. And there doesn’t seem to be a lot of icing or sugarcoating what’s happening.

John Bytheway: 06:50 Some of you have come up to hear the pleasing word of God, the word which healeth the wounded soul. And I have to enlarge the wounds of those that are already wounded. Don’t you feel for Jacob because of that? I had another talk prepared, but I have to give this one.

Hank Smith: 07:06 And now Amos as well. I’m like, I would hate to give this message. You were supposed to be different. You weren’t, so here comes destruction. These terrible consequences are coming. Is the rest of the book like this because we’ve gone an hour here and we’re two chapters in. So I want to make sure we cover anything that might be different in the rest of the book. But is that really what the rest of the message is? Is this doom and gloom that’s coming because they’re not being different.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 07:35 Most of the message is that your relationship with God should make you different and it hasn’t. But of course, even in that negative… In putting it in that way, there’s still so much that we can glean from that that we can understand what this means.

Hank Smith: 07:55 I noticed in my reading Ryan, that in chapter four he calls them fat cows-

John Bytheway: 08:00 Kine-

Hank Smith: 08:01 Them chapter four, verse one. Yeah, he says, Ye kine of Bashan. And I was like, what does that mean? So I went and looked at Bible hub just to see how other translations read that. And it just says the new living translation, listen to me, you fat cows living in some area. I’m like, wow, I didn’t know that’s what it meant. Sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt, but I was like, whoa, that’s interesting. You oppress the poor, you crush the needy, but yet you’re feeding yourselves. I can tell.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 08:33 Yeah, yeah. I mean if we go over to chapter five, verse 14, we’re told to seek good and not evil that you may live so the Lord, the God of hosts shall be with you as he hath spoken.

Hank Smith: 08:46 So there’s still a chance for those who want to repent.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 08:50 And that’s always in the Old Testament. No matter how terrible things may seem, that there’s always a chance to change things around. Nothing is ever quite set in stone. I mean I always think about Jonah who I think he prophesied to Ninevah that in 40 days you’re going to be destroyed and then the people repent and God’s like, Oh, well good, let’s not do that. Yeah, you guys did it.

John Bytheway: 09:14 And it kind of bugs Jonah. He’s like, That was too easy.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 09:21 Yeah. I guess if we go to just again reiterating, if we go to starting in verse four of Amos chapter five. It says, For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Israel seek ye me and ye shall live. This is what he’s telling them, look for me. The question is how. What they’ve done is, in verse five he says, Seek not Bethel nor enter into Gilgal. And these are of course our places of worship, places in the northern kingdom that they would go. The problem is they go to these places, they’re not going to find God. They’re going for another reason. Because for them worship is about going to their sanctuary and celebrating and doing what is there and that’s their relationship with God. But God is trying to help them understand, and this is what we’ve been talking about and this is where verse seven comes and he says, But ye who turn judgment to wormwood and leave off righteousness in the earth.

  10:23 So if you really want to have a relationship with me, then you need to begin by showing justice and righteousness to those around you. This is how you’re going to find me. One of the images I love in verse 24 of this same chapter, he says, but let judgment, and again that’s our word justice here. Let judgment run down as waters and righteousness as a mighty stream. We’ve got a parallelism there, we’ve got a mighty stream paralleling waters. And the idea is that justice and righteousness are constants in the life of a disciple because a mighty stream is different than a wadi. So in Israel they often have rivers that will only run for part of the year. If you are one of these wadis where you know, oh, it’ll be there when the times are right and when the conditions are favorable, there’ll be some righteousness, there’ll be some justice.

John Bytheway: 11:26 The cloud burst once in a while.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 11:29 So God’s covenant people need to make sure that justice and righteousness are always there. We’re not fair-weather disciples we’re there all the time no matter what.

John Bytheway: 11:41 This is reminding me of when we looked at Isaiah, do you remember Hank. Then should thy peace be as a river and thy righteousness as the ways of the sea. And we even talked about that idea, the ways of the sea, just constant never ceasing type of a thing. But I like the comparison of a wadi and a river and wadi is w-a-d-i. There’s a cloud burst so the water runs and then it might only run for a day or two a month or something like that.

Hank Smith: 12:10 And then it’s gone. Yeah, the rainy season. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 12:13 That’s a good comparison. A wadi versus a river.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 12:16 And again it brings us back to the teachings of Christ about who we show judgment or justice and righteousness to. And when we do, if we go to Matthew five and the Sermon on the Mount, and I think this is the context where we get that commandment of be ye therefore perfect even as your father which is in heaven is perfect. And of course that word perfect means complete. And I think one of the ways to read this is that we need to be complete in our love. Not partial but love all people all the time. Because in verse 43 of that chapter it says, ye have heard that it hath been said thou shalt love thy neighbor and hate thine enemy.

  13:04 But I say to you, love your enemies. Bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you. Pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you, that ye may be the children of your father which is in heaven for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good and sendeth rain on the just and the unjust. So again, that water imagery, right? God is here providing rain to everyone and in the same way we need to provide love and justice and righteousness to everyone all the time. Now we’re not partial.

Hank Smith: 13:41 I love that Jesus uses the weather to talk about righteousness. He’s like, take a look around. The sun is up on everybody, the rain is on everybody. Let’s be like the weather and God controls the weather, let’s be like him. I have to think that’s a classic example.

John Bytheway: 13:56 And I think rain, I don’t know about this, Ryan correct me if I’m wrong, but I think we in a western culture might think of the perfect day as not a cloud in the sky got the sun in my eye, right? But in a desert, you want the rain, don’t you when he sends rain. And the other thing I was thinking about that I’ve heard Dr. John Lund lecture on those last verses about be ye therefore perfect in context. It doesn’t sound exactly the same in the Book of Mormon, but here it sounds as the be ye therefore perfect is about being perfectly loving. Like you just said, sending rain on the just and on the unjust in Matthew five it sounds more like it’s how we love others is the be ye therefore perfect.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 14:39 Yeah. And in Luke six there are similar teachings to what we find on the Sermon on the Mount and in Luke chapter six verses 35 to 36 is that same teaching and it says but love ye your enemies and do good and lend hoping for nothing again. And your reward shall be great and ye shall be the children of the highest. For he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil be ye therefore merciful as your father also is merciful. So there in Luke, rather than perfect it says merciful. So I think that’s also a good way to understand that scripture of perfect. We can insert merciful into there.

John Bytheway: 15:19 The whole complete finished I think is what the footnote says. Great stuff.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 15:24 Because I often think, I mean at least for me in my life, if I spend my life trying to be perfect, I’m going to fail every time and probably feel worse afterwards. But if I spend my life trying to love people and to take care of them, I’m probably still going to fail just as much, but I’m going to be better and the world’s going to be better off for it. When that sense, it’s a equally unattainable or a equally difficult task to love your enemies and to be there to show justice and righteousness to everyone. It’s a very difficult task, but it’s one that’s going to make the world better.

John Bytheway: 16:09 The verses just before Matthew 5:48 are so good, for if ye love only them which love you, what reward have you do? Do not even the publicans… it was like tax collectors can do that. Right? And if you salute your brother and only what do ye more than others? I mean anybody can be… Some people are easier to love than others. I think that’s what he’s saying there. So be perfectly loving, be ye therefore perfect.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 16:36 And this takes us back to Amos. If we’re only having relationships with people because they have something to offer us, then we’re not being true disciples of Christ because Jesus Christ is the great example that he rescued us from sin and death before we could do anything to deserve it. And this helps us understand his character. I love thinking about terms and things in terms of transaction. Elder Christofferson in the last conference talked about that God is not a cosmic vending machine and a vending machine is the greatest example of what a transactional relationship looks like. I put in my money, you give me my soda and we’re on our way. I don’t care too much about the machine, but a real relationship cares about the person, not what they’re going to give you.

Hank Smith: 17:31 Wow. That’s really well said. I wanted to maybe compare two verses if that’s okay. Amos 3:7, surely the Lord God will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants, the prophets. It sounds like, Ryan, what you’re saying is the lion has roared and he’s called on me, Amos is saying, and he’s revealed it to me what to go and say. And then I look at the reaction. I looked at Amos 7:12, I don’t know who this is, Amazaiah says to Amos, Oh thou seer, go flee away into the land of Judah and there eat bread and prophesy there, but don’t prophesy here anymore. Is that kind of the reaction that Amos gets from most of Israel? Oh thou seer, flee away, go away.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 18:20 Yeah, I mean Amos is saying things that are inconvenient and unpopular. And this is part of what Amos is trying to help them understand. I’m not doing this because it’s fun. I’m doing this because the lion has roared and I have to respond. God’s done something for me and now I need to do something for him. And I’m not here because I’m a professional prophet. He says, I’m not a son of a prophet. I’m here because God’s called me. And for Amaziah, he said, well go get your livelihood, go make your money somewhere else, there’s no openings for a prophet around here. We’re full. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 18:58 There’s no openings.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 19:00 Yeah, Amos is trying to say, I’m not here for a job. Right? I’m not here to apply. I have this message. Because what Amazaiah says is don’t prophesy. And that’s exactly what God has said that  Israel has done, is that they’ve taken the prophets and told them, don’t prophesy.

Hank Smith: 19:19 And this is verse 15 of chapter seven. The Lord took me as I followed the flock. Almost as if, I’d rather be back home. And the Lord said unto me, go prophesy unto my people Israel. I love that Ryan. I thought you said there’s no openings here. Why don’t you go on your way? John, did you have some thoughts on living prophets?

John Bytheway: 19:39 Oh, absolutely. I just think how critical it is to understand as part of the restoration of the gospel that we have living prophets. I look forward to general conference. I’m amazed at how things had unfolded prior to COVID with doing home centered, church supported Come, Follow Me and everything. And I see that phrase, Oh thou seer and a seer is someone who sees. And just recently I was teaching the war chapters in my Book of Mormon class and there’s a fun chapter where it says we’ll dig a ditch around the whole city. Okay, now let’s put a work of timbers in. Are we done yet? No. Now let’s put a frame of pickets up on top of the work of timbers, on the interbank of the ditch. Or are we done yet? No. Now let’s put a tower on top of the frame of pickets on top of the work of timbers on top of the ditch.

  20:28 Are we done yet? No. Let’s put a person in the tower. And what can a person in the tower do that somebody down below can’t do. They can see. They can see far off. And so imagine the absurdity if somebody up in the tower, the watchman in the tower says, behold danger approaches at two o’clock. Imagine the absurdity if we look up and say, I don’t see any danger. Well, that’s exactly right. That’s not your job. You’re on frame of picket maintenance. You don’t see it. My job is to see, and I was thinking of the verse, in fact I was looking for it that we touched on in Isaiah, which sayeth to the seer, see not, prophesy onto us smooth things prophesy deceits. Remember that one? And it reminded me of this one, oh thou seer go flee away. Elder Holland in October of 2006 said this, “as the least of those who have been sustained by you to witness the guidance of this church firsthand.

  21:26 I say with all the fervor of my soul that never in my personal or professional life have I ever associated with any group who are so in touch, who know so profoundly the issues facing us who look so deeply into the old, stay so open to the new and weigh so carefully, thoughtfully, and prayerfully everything in between. I testify that the grasp this body of men and women have of moral and societal issues exceeds that of any think tank or brain trust of comparable endeavor, of which I know anywhere on the earth. I bear personal witness of how thoroughly good they are, of how hard they work, how humbly they live. It is no trivial matter for this church to declare to the world prophecy, seership and revelation. But we do declare it. It is true light shining in a dark world and it shines from these proceedings.” Was in general conference.

  22:27 And I have another one, Hank. And then more recently April of 2022. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland said, “Of course, in our present day, tremendously difficult issues face any disciple of Jesus Christ. The leaders of this church are giving their lives to seeking the Lord’s guidance in the resolution of these challenges. If some are not resolved to the satisfaction of everyone, perhaps they constitute part of the cross Jesus said we would have to take up in order to follow him. It is precisely because there would be dark days and difficult issues that God promised he would out of a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night guide prophets, give an iron rod, open a narrow gate leading to a straight path and above all grant us the power to finish the course. So please, please stay for the whole feast. Even if you’re not sure about the broccoli. Bask in his light and lend your candle to the cause. They have it right in Primary. Jesus really does want you for a sunbeam. Isn’t that great?

Hank Smith: 23:35 It’s good stuff.

John Bytheway: 23:37 I think that if I were to ask my students, do you know any verses from Amos, what would they all say? Amos 3:7. And that’s where I was thinking about those quotations. But I love that right after it says the lion… Amos 3:8, the lion hath roared. I love that that comes right after.

Hank Smith: 23:56 And I wonder how many of us are like this. You called him Amazaiah, is that what you called him Ryan? I want to make sure I get his name right. How many of us are kind of like him say with some of the talks we hear? Oh, I don’t like that, flee away. Go talk about that somewhere else. So that’s I think an interesting reaction to this prophet Ryan. So how does this book end? We’ve got a couple of chapters left, seven, eight, nine, and ten. Is it pretty much what we’ve had before or is there anything new we need to see in these chapters?

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 24:25 Well, it ends on a hopeful note. So the prophets are not here just to be doom and gloom on one generation. The prophets and the Lord have a much larger view. They know that God’s relationship with his covenant people is stronger than any temporary setback. And of course the Old Testament is the story of temporary setbacks, of God trying to help his people. Something doesn’t work out. God tries plan B, plan C, plan D, right? That’s the allegory of the olive tree in Jacob 5 that God will never stop trying.

Hank Smith: 25:08 These are his chosen people and he will make it happen, but it might take a while.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 25:13 And he knows though that there is a happy ending that will come at the end of chapter nine, verse 11. It says, In that day, I will raise up the tabernacle of David that has fallen and close up the breaches thereof. I will raise up his ruins, I will build it as in the days of old, looking forward to a time when he’s going to build up his people again. They’re going to come back to the land and they’re going to have their happily ever after experience. They’re going to live in the promised land with God among them. And this is what he’s been trying to do.

  25:49 This is the kind of community that God is trying to… Has been trying to establish since the beginning. He took them out of Egypt, not because they were done with their Egyptian slavery practice. They came out of Egypt because he wanted to create a community with them. He wanted to create a kind of community that was different than anywhere else in the world. A place where people took care of each other, where they loved each other and where he could be a part of it. That’s why the tabernacle and the temple is such an important part of this community is because God is a part of it.

Hank Smith: 26:27 He lived with them.

John Bytheway: 26:28 And I love that illustrations of that that we saw of having the tabernacle in the center and all the tribes around it. It was such a beautiful visual of this is how it’s supposed to be, God is with you. And that’s what he kept telling him. I’m with you and I’m going to even move with you as you go. I’m right here. I saw the pictures of that somebody illustrated recently and thought, oh, I missed the message until I saw the visual. I’m with you wherever you go.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 26:58 And that’s the consequence of Israel not listening to what God has to say to them. Back in chapter eight, I guess we kind of skipped over this. This is another scripture that we kind of know from Amos in chapter 8:11-12

John Bytheway: 27:13 11 and 12.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 27:15 Yeah. Behold the days come saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land. Not a famine of bread nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord. And this is the danger. If you don’t listen to the Lord, then you might stop hearing him speak to you. But what’s hopeful, I guess in some sense is that Amos is telling us a way back that if you can’t hear the Lord, then remember what he said. You can hear his voice in the voice of those that are hungry. You can hear his voice in the voice of those who need help. And that’s what he’s asked you to do. That’s what the covenant people of the Lord are here to do is to help those who suffer. And if we as disciples of Christ have gotten away from that, right?

  28:11 If we feel like we need God in our life a little bit more, if we feel like we need to hear his voice, then we need to look around ourselves and think who needs help, right? Because as Jesus says, if as you mentioned John in Matthew 25, if you do it to one of the least of these, my brethren, you’ve done it to me. And if we need Jesus, if we need our Heavenly Father in our life a little bit more, then find someone who’s suffering. Because we learned in Psalm 34, he’s close to those people. He’s close to those that have broken hearts and crushed spirits. So if you want to be close to God, go find them. And of course that’s yourself too. If you’re going through a tough time, reach out to him. He’ll be there for you. That’s how he begins his relationship. That’s how he continues his relationship with you, and that’s how he wants you to go help other people as well.

Hank Smith: 29:11 That’s fantastic. And they will come back, he says. One day they will come back. This is Amos 9:14. I will bring again the captivity of my people of Israel and they’ll build up these waste cities and inhabit them. They’ll plant vineyards, they’ll drink the wine thereof, they’ll make gardens. They’ll eat the fruit of them. So it does finish on an uplifting note that maybe the people of that day aren’t going to see it, but a future people will see this fulfilled. This is great. I love the book of Amos now.

John Bytheway: 29:42 It reminds me of Isaiah’s call where it sounds, Isaiah 6, where it sounds like you’re going to go and nobody’s going to listen. But in the end, the last verse, a tenth shall return. And there’s this always this promise of they’ll come back.

Hank Smith: 29:55 There’s a good ending, ish.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 29:57 Feels a bit sometimes when you’re trying to do scripture study or family home evening for your kids, like they’re not going to listen, but one day they’ll remember and it’ll be useful.

Hank Smith: 30:09 That’s a great-

John Bytheway: 30:09 I remember my father to have taught me.

Hank Smith: 30:11 Yeah, he said something about that-

John Bytheway: 30:14 Alma the Younger. Our official Come, Follow Me manual, has us read all of Amos and all of Obadiah. But how much is there in Obadiah? There’s one phrase out of Obadiah that I think we all know, but tell us about Obadiah, Ryan.

Hank Smith: 30:30 A whole 21 verses of Obadiah.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 30:33 Well, Obadiah is difficult because there isn’t a lot of context. We saw before in Amos 1:1, you at least got to hear where Amos’s hometown was, where he was being called to. But here we don’t get a lot of context. All we know the servant of Jehovah is his name, and we’re told that he has a message from the Lord against Edom, which is again one of Israel’s neighbors. Okay, So this is not specifically addressed to either the kingdom of Judah or the kingdom of Israel. This is actually addressed to the people of Edom. But again, God is the God of the world. So he doesn’t quite care where you end up. If he’s got a message for you, then you’re going to hear it.

  31:23 And there seems to be… What he’s talking about here is that the Edomites, a likely time period that this is, it’s a time that Jerusalem has suffered some type of calamity. So probably it might be after the Babylonian destruction in 586. So the problem is that the Edomites who really are their brothers, their neighbors, remember in Genesis we learned that Jacob or Israel was a brother to Esau and Esau is the ancestor of Edom. So they have this kinship, right. A literal kinship between Edom and the people of Israel.

  32:07 Rather than helping them, they went and saw what they could get out of it. So it says, starting in verse ten, for the violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off forever. In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. For thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger. Neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction. Edom rather than being a help to Israel-

John Bytheway: 32:49 Kind of watched it happen.

Hank Smith: 32:50 They just kind of watched. Yeah, it sounds like they just looked over and went, Oh wow. Yeah. You should have been there to help.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 33:00 Obadiah though sees… But of course because Israel is God’s covenant people, God hasn’t given up on Israel. And even though Edom wasn’t there for them, God will be there for them eventually. And this is why starting in verse 17, we hear, but upon Mount Zion shall be deliverance and there shall be holiness. And the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. Israel will again return and deliverance will be on Mount Zion. And Mount Zion is the mount where the temple was in Jerusalem.

  33:42 Mount Zion is a place where God, where his presence is. And he tells them that deliverance is going to be there on that mount. Where God is that’s where rescue happens. We hear about kind of a happy ending where Israel’s enemies are going to get what they deserve, but Israel is going to be taken care of. So the very last verse that we know well is, and saviours shall come upon… Or shall come up on Mount Zion to judge the Mount of Esau and the kingdom shall be the Lord’s. The image here is that it takes us back to the time of the judges. So the word there for Savior in Hebrew is actually the word that is often used for the judges in the time of the judges. An example, if we go to Judges chapter three, verse nine-

Hank Smith: 34:40 We’re dusting off some memories here from-

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 34:43 Yeah, that’s right.

Hank Smith: 34:45 Earlier this year.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 34:47 So in chapter three verse nine it says, and when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer. The word deliverer is the same word as Savior. So we could translate that as he raised up a savior to the children of Israel who delivered them. Even Othniel, the son of Cannas, Caleb’s younger brother. So this kind of helps us understand that this vision that Obadiah sees is where just like in the days past when God would raise up a savior, this is when Israel would be in captivity. When they were in, they needed help. And when they asked for help, God would provide someone that could free them from captivity, that could again take them out of and bring them to the safety of Mount Zion, where that is where deliverance, where God’s presence would be. And it says there that rather than having a human king, the kingdom shall be the Lord’s.

  35:56 Just like in the book of Judges, the king, there is no king. The king is the Lord. And so they’re going to return back to those days when God will deliver them and he will be their king. One of the fun things about this is we read this often, and that’s the thing we’ve talked about with prophets, and I know that has been mentioned on this podcast before. The prophet’s words can mean more than one thing. They can echo through time. Isaiah’s words were described. We can think about this… It’s been talked about as our work for the dead. I think that’s a beautiful application to this scripture. One of the ways to kind of add some context to this is that when we talk about being saviors on Mount Zion, that again in the Old Testament, going back to the idea of judges, oftentimes the judges, what gave them power to deliver Israel was the Spirit of the Lord.

  36:58 So it talks about the spirit of the Lord coming upon the judges. So back even in Judges chapter three, the very next verse in verse 10 says, And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. In the stories about Sampson. Sampson’s not always the best positive role model to have, but every time he had strength to do what he needed to do, it came because the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and gave him his strength. So we often talk about, well, it’s his hair, but it wasn’t the hair, it was the spirit of the Lord that gave him the power to do what he needed to do. When we think about what does it mean to be a savior who stands on Mount Zion? Well, a savior in this sense, a deliverer, someone that rescues others from captivity is one that has the Spirit of the Lord come upon them.

  37:51 And as disciples of Christ, that’s one of the things that were given just like Jesus Christ. When Jesus Christ was baptized, the Spirit of the Lord came upon him and really began his ministry. And in the same way as we come out of the waters of baptism and we have hands placed on our head that we are told to receive the Holy Ghost when it descends upon us, one of the things that the Spirit does is empower us to now become disciples of Christ, to give us the power that we need to rescue Israel from captivity. And that’s I think where we see the gathering of Israel tied into this. Because this is what the deliverers or the saviors did in the time of the judges is Israel was in captivity. And when the Spirit of the Lord came upon them, they were able to bring them out of captivity because of the power given to them by God.

  38:51 In fact, this is really what the mission of the Messiah is to do. To add some context to this, if we go to Isaiah 61 verses one through two, this is the scripture that Jesus read in the synagogue in Nazareth when he was kind of beginning his ministry. That’s right. This scripture ties the gathering of Israel with what we’ve been talking about, about helping those that are wounded and those that are suffering. In fact, these are not two different missions. It’s not just that we gather Israel on this part and then we help other people over here that those are one and the same. That when you’re in exile, when you are in captivity, you’re in a place that you don’t belong. You are suffering because you are a captive of war. You are wounded, you are looking to be out of this captivity. So in verse one, it says, The Spirit of the Lord is upon me.

  39:51 So again, the Messiah is the Savior, just like we’ve talked about these judges, that the Spirit of the Lord comes upon him and this gives him power to now rescue Israel out of the captivity that they are in. It says here, because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek so we can think good tidings. You also can translate that as gospel and to the meek, that’s the oppressed, those that are going through hard times. He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, the opening of the prison to them that are bound to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and the day of vengeance of our God to comfort all that mourn.

  40:38 This is what the mission of Jesus Christ is, and it’s also our mission as disciples of Christ. The reason that blessed are those that mourn is because those are the people that Jesus has come to help. Those are the people that the Messiah has come to comfort. When we think about a savior standing on Mount Zion, if we can think about that as ourselves, as disciples of Christ standing on Mount Zion, it’s our mission to find those who suffer to comfort them, to bring them to the Lord, to Mount Zion where they can be healed and taken care of.

  41:15 Our mission to rescue scattered Israel on both sides of the veil is the same mission that both Amos has been talking about, about finding those who suffer by helping them, by healing them. And we do this also for the dead. Those that have passed on that need the ordinances in order for their relationship with our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ to move forward. And if we can do this for them, that they can also be released from prison and from captivity. Just as the Savior has done for all of us we get a chance to do that for the dead and the living because the gospel of Jesus Christ and this gathering of Israel as President Nelson has often reminded us, happens on both sides of the veil. We compartmentalize things often. Oh, that’s missionary work. That’s member work, that’s temple work.

Hank Smith: 42:11 That’s service, feeding others, but it’s all the same.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 42:14 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 42:15 Yeah. Unite families for eternity is both sides.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 42:19 Living the gospel of Jesus Christ is about doing justice and righteousness as Amos tells us. And that’s justice and righteousness to everyone. It’s to the dead, to the living. It’s to our enemies, it’s to our friends. It’s all the time for all people. That’s what it means to flow as a mighty stream.

Hank Smith: 42:42 Yeah. To be a savior on Mount Zion. I love it.

John Bytheway: 42:47 I love the way you set this up, Ryan, because we have talked about this a lot on this, especially I think when we were talking about Isaiah, that there can be multiple levels of fulfillment and application and so forth. And I like the way that the Come, Follow Me manual said it. President Gordon B. Hinckley gave one possible interpretation of the phrase saviors on Mount Zion, and you’ve expanded that for us. Here’s one that President Hinckley gave. Connecting the phrase to temple and family history work.

  43:16 Okay, here’s the quotation. “In the temple, we literally become saviors on Mount Zion. What does this mean? Just as our Redeemer gave his life as a vicarious sacrifice for all men and in so doing became our Savior. Even so we in a small measure, when we engage in proxy work in the temple, become as saviors to those on the other side who have no means of advancing unless something is done in their behalf by those on earth.” So that was in October of 2004, general conference when President Hinckley said that. But I like Ryan how you’ve expanded that and we all become as saviors or deliverers when people are captive, even if it’s by sin or by an addiction or something like that. We can try to do what the Savior would do for them.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 44:03 I feel like sometimes captivity can also just be those hard times that we’re going through when we feel like we’re in a rut. We don’t know how to get out of things, how to make things better. That’s what we’re looking to do for other people. To see people that are going through a hard time, to be their friend, to help them through those hard times.

Hank Smith: 44:24 Do you remember the story told by President Hinckley that his father used to tell him? I think they made a video of it where there was a man out working in a field and two boys came upon him and they saw his shoes. One of them said, let’s hide his shoes and then we’ll see what he does. And the other one said, No, let’s not hide his shoes. Let’s put, was it two silver dollars? Let’s put two silver dollars in his boots and let’s hide and watch. President Hinckley said his dad used to tell him that story. And that just reminds me of what you said, Ryan, is that as the boys watch and the man comes back and he kneels down right there and says a prayer out loud, that’s a type of gathering of Israel. That’s being a lowercase S savior to someone on Mount Zion. It’s a beautiful, beautiful story.

John Bytheway: 45:11 I met a sister and she just kind of showed me her phone. She said, every morning this question comes up on my phone. Who needs me today? It wasn’t, does someone need me today? It was who needs me? And she would think of something prayerfully, somebody I can call or text or do something. What can I do? And I thought, wow, that’s amazing. Who needs me today? And you’ve reminded me of that, Ryan, with what you’ve taught us today.

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 45:41 That reminds me of what President Eyring has shared a story a couple of times where he had a conversation with a priesthood leader, I believe that gave him some advice and said that when you’re talking with people, if you assume they’re going through some great crisis in their life, more than half the time you’ll be right. And President Eyring got, that’s kind of pessimistic, but he says that his life has gone on. He’s found that to be true. And I think that we don’t have to go out of our way to be disciples of Christ. They’re there. They’re in our way, the people that need us. We just need to open our eyes and realize that there are people that are hungering and thirsting for righteousness right next to us. And we need to remember as Amos tells us what our covenant obligation is and we need to give them that.

Hank Smith: 46:31 I’ve told my students Latter-day Saints get together a couple times a week to lie to each other about how they’re doing. How are you? I’m doing great. How are you? I’m doing great. People are really actually suffering. They’re going through things and maybe we need to be a little more vulnerable and share when we are suffering so people can come to the rescue and help us.

John Bytheway: 46:52 It reminds me that story sister Michelle Craig told about waiting in line. Spirit nudged her and said, put away your phone when you’re in line. And she started talking to the guy in front of her who was buying cat food. Is that right?

Hank Smith: 47:04 I think it was. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 47:05 Didn’t he kind of say, it’s my birthday. For somebody to recognize that, I mean people that are hungry, hungering, thirsting after righteousness, Ryan, or even maybe just for someone to say, how are you? Or something nice to them to recognize another human being. I got to be better at that. I feel humbled and motivated by this today. I feel called to repentance and excited to try and do better.

Hank Smith: 47:30 Ryan, this has been absolutely fantastic. I can’t say I knew a lot about Amos and Obadiah coming into this today, but I walk away saying, man, I love this. I love what we’ve learned. I think our listeners would be interested in your story of your education and your faith. Here you are a Bible scholar and also a faithful Latter-day Saint. What’s that journey been like for you?

Dr. Ryan C. Davis: 47:54 It’s been fun. I mean, because I was an Ancient Near Eastern Studies major as an undergraduate at BYU. I learned to start looking at the scriptures from an academic perspective in an environment of faith. I had great professors that were also faithful Latter-day Saints that opened a window into looking at the scriptures maybe a little differently than we do in Sunday school. And it’s been a lot of fun. It’s rich, it’s beautiful. As I’ve learned more and more, I’ve had to learn to be comfortable with not knowing things. And I’ve realized that that’s really what faith is. Alma says faith is not to have a perfect knowledge. That’s one of the things I feel like my studies have taught me and given me an opportunity for faith. It’s given texture to the scriptures which has helped me establish my relationship with Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father.

  48:53 That’s one of the things that I feel like the scriptures have really taught me. I’ve gotten a bachelor’s, a master’s, and a PhD in the Old Testament, and I’ve had an opportunity to strengthen my relationship with God. That relationship is based in faith. Faith is trust. I don’t always know the answer to every question, but I do know the Lord. I’m okay not having the answers to all my questions. But I do know that He’s there and I know I’m a disciple of Jesus Christ and I’m just excited to be on His team and working next to Him to do good. And I feel like that’s something that my studies have allowed me to do is pull things out from the scriptures that I never knew were there. To see things that I would’ve never have known unless I had spent time learning by study and by faith. It’s been a beautiful time for me, but at the same time, I’m a Latter-day Saint.

  50:00 That’s the bedrock of who I am and what I’m learning in all this has helped me better understand what it means to be a Latter-day Saint. When I read articles or I see new perspectives from people from other faiths, I think, wow, that’s great. I should incorporate that. And that’s something that I need to learn. Right? It’s never threatening. And I think that’s something that has changed from before my journey until now, is that sometimes you’d hear someone that either wasn’t a believer or someone from another faith and you think, wow, that’s true. Should I feel threatened by that? I think about what President Hinckley often said when he says, bring all the good that you have and let’s see what we can add to it.

  50:41 And I realize that there are so much good, so many people of other faiths have spent centuries reading the scriptures and have valuable and wonderful insights. And it’s enriched my testimony and it’s enriched my relationship with Jesus Christ. More than anything, my studies has helped me realize that it’s my relationship with my Heavenly Father and my Savior Jesus Christ is what really matters in life. And that relationship will see me through every difficulty. And I’ve learned from Amos along with you that that means I have to do something for those around me. And I’m trying to do that.

Hank Smith: 51:26 Perfect. Absolutely perfect, Ryan. Thank you. Thank you. What a fantastic day, John. How did we get this lucky to just sit at the feet of these incredible guests and learn and then come away feeling uplifted. I come away feeling motivated. I think that’s the power of the Spirit.

John Bytheway: 51:44 Yeah. I think President Eyring said once, Don’t be surprised if when you feel the spirit, you feel a little bit of a rebuke. Yeah. Because you can feel that and you can also feel I got to do better. But I love it. I’m being invited to higher ground. That is a good thing. I realize I can do better. I’m being invited to higher ground and I felt that today. Thank you, Ryan.

Hank Smith: 52:06 We want to thank Dr. Ryan Davis for being with us today. We want to thank all of you for listening. We also need to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we hope all of you will join us next week. We’re coming back with another episode of followHIM.

  52:27 We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.