John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

  00:00:07 Hank, you mentioned the book of Hosea is kind of a book to be felt. And I was looking at the first part of the Come Follow Me manual that says, “Israel’s covenant with the Lord was meant to be so deep and meaningful that the Lord compared it to a marriage. The covenant, like a marriage included eternal commitment, shared experiences, building a life together, exclusive loyalty, and most of all, wholehearted love. This kind of devotion came with high expectations and tragic consequences for infidelity. Through the prophet Hosea, God describes some of the consequences the Israelites faced for breaking their covenant.” I mean, there’s strong, wonderful feelings and some really tragic feelings too there. And Aaron mentioned that Jeremiah 31 was quoted to Joseph Smith, and I think one of the first things I thought of when we were going to look at the book of Joel is that Moroni talked about Joel to Joseph Smith as well. And that’s what we’re going to look at now, is the book of Joel. Let’s see, the whole book of Joel.

Hank Smith: 00:01:13 The whole thing, I mean, it’s a whole…

John Bytheway: 00:01:17 Which is the whole how many chapters?

Hank Smith: 00:01:19 All three chapters of Joel. All right. So Aaron, how do you want to approach Joel about the same way we did with Hosea? Just kind of give us some background and then maybe jump into those verses where you show us how amazing this is?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:01:33 Sure, you bet.

Hank Smith: 00:01:34 What’s the background? What do I need to know going into Joel?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:01:36 We just finished Hosea, so now it’s time to leave the easy part and get to the hard part.

  00:01:42 It’s got really an apocalyptic feel to the book. I think an important part of it is also to look at it and realize that this may not be sort of stagnant in one particular place, in one particular time, and that it seems to represent a composite of several different time periods that lead us up to one. All of these different phases of highs and lows, destructions, victories, losses that eventually culminate with the coming of the Redeemer who will put an end to all of the wars and contention. And so for Joel, it’s tough to try and pinpoint a historical point in time because we just don’t know that much about him as a person. And yet the first couple of verses it just says, “Here ye, ye old men and give ear all ye inhabitants of the land. Had this been in your days or even in the days of your fathers, tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children and their children, another generation.”

  00:02:46 And so you just sort of get the impression that at the very get go that this is about a series of events that is going to take place over a very long time. So there are lots of different references in the book. Most of the references to Judah outnumber those of Israel, but there is a reference to Israel and some have used that to indicate that maybe this is after 722 when the kingdom of Israel is already destroyed. So again, it’s hard to pinpoint a lot of the focus is the kingdom of Judah. But ultimately that’s kind of how the book begins with verse four, this comparison with the palmer-worm. And so approaching the book sort of invites us to take a look at history from ancient times to future times that will eventually lead us to a paradigm of one who will come in power and redeem and ultimately take charge of everything that has seemed so chaotic throughout the world’s history.

Hank Smith: 00:03:49 You used the term apocalyptic. For our listeners who don’t know exactly what that is, can you explain that to them?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:03:55 So it’s just again referring to end to day’s scenarios because often time individual scholars who are looking at the book of Joel will try and pinpoint a specific place and time for things to happen. And yet this seems to invite us into a broader range than just one particular point, but lead us all the way into a period of time that does talk about the end of day’s type of scenario. And that’s going to be ushered in in the book of Joel with the figure of the Messiah, the Redeemer, who comes in power and in a way that nobody can really compete with.

Hank Smith: 00:04:32 Okay, that sounds intense. Let’s keep going. What’s a palmer-worm?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:04:37 That’s the question. In the beginning of these verses they used the term gazam, which means great locust, arbe, young locust, yelich, other locust, hasil. Basically, we don’t exactly know what the author is trying to tell us. It’s clear that he is using words for locust in Acadian, which is an east semetic language from Mesopotamia. There’s over 20 different words for locust. And so it’s clear that sometimes we look at this as sort of like the evolution of a butterfly going through different phases, one leading to the other. And it’s just hard to tell what the author is trying to do here. So basically it’s clear that if this is a mid eighth century text or later, so anywhere in the eighth century, we know that Sargon II is leaving inscriptions that talk about these hymns of prayer, of relief from locust invasions. So anciently we know they’re happening.

  00:05:34 We know that there’s been some modern examples of this happening of just these locusts that come in and devour everything. So again, as we approach this, we look at it and say, “Okay, a locust invasion is something that people are familiar with and they just are notorious for stripping everything and all the resources and just they wreak havoc.” And yet part of what this also seems to be saying and how this is sometimes approached is that these locusts also represent different superpowers that are going to come through and just wipe the region clean. And so Joel chapter one verse four is presented at least in the Hebrew as a way that says what is left of A then B ate, what is left of B, C ate. What is left of C, D ate. So by that I mean these different locusts that are being presented here.

Hank Smith: 00:06:29 Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:06:29 And so some people see this as the Assyrians or the Babylonians followed by Persians, Greco Roman period. And so again, just different authors and people who have approached the subject have looked at just sort of these destructive forces that could have represented a variety of different ancient kingdoms that wreaked havoc in this region leading us all the way up to a point where some people apply this to the Armageddon type scenario. So it is a book that describes war of destruction, of discouragement, but again, it also tries to present a message of hope in the future, and particularly in some of the spiritual gifts and manifestations and endowments of those spiritual gifts that are going to help people recognize and stay close to God through all of these trials.

Hank Smith: 00:07:23 I have a quick question. When you read the book of Joel, do you use KJV? Do you like KJV most on that or are there other?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:07:30 Yeah, there are several resources. I always like the Jewish study Bible. They try and stay kind of literal to the translations where you get into some of these books that are difficult, but the KJV, I mean that’s what we use. And so I try and stick with that. But there are other volumes that do a good job of presenting things a little more literally.

John Bytheway: 00:07:49 The footnote in our addition, footnote 4A says, “The invading or conquering armies are compared to four varieties or stages of growth of locusts.” And then I was reading in the Living Bible and it says, “After the cutter locust finish eating your crops, the swarmer locust will take what’s left, after them will come the hopper locusts and then the stripper locust too.”

Hank Smith: 00:08:16 My goodness.

John Bytheway: 00:08:17 And it just sounds so thorough. And then you read the next verses in the living Bible, “Wake up and weep, you drunkards, all the grapes are ruined, all your wine is gone. A vast army of locusts covers the land. It is a terrible army too numerous to count with teeth as sharp as those of lions. They have ruined my vines and strip the bark from the fig trees, leaving trunks and branches white and bare.” So it’s a happy message.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:08:43 I’m not sure that Joel’s trying to give us a lesson in entomology. It’s just that these are conceptions that people look at and say, “Oh, I understand locusts can do this.” And all of a sudden now it’s like we have to worry about these being invading armies because they’re going to do the same thing. And we do have comparisons in the Bible and in the ancient near east of texts that tell us that armies, invading armies, are compared to locusts. And you mention the transition there to laying the vine waste and stripping down the fig trees. This is really now turning into a lament. So I mean verse eight in chapter one, “Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.” So again, we’re just invited into a paradigm that says, “Oh, I’ve seen this. I can relate with this. Somebody lamenting for somebody else who meant something special to them.”

  00:09:35 And what’s interesting about all of this is that this focus of disappointment shifts to the temple. So essentially what we seem to be having here is that this devastation caused by these invasions means that there’s no longer adequate wine or flour or oil for the twice daily cereal and drink offerings. So this is now beginning to affect the priests whose sole job is to help remind people of their covenants and engage and renew those covenantal type of responsibilities with God on behalf of the people. And now when these invading armies, again, if that’s what this is really about, that they’re going to strip all of those resources and now temple worship is going to be at stake.

  00:10:18 So part of what this is trying to describe is a physical devastation that affects spiritual development. And ultimately at this point is when they start saying, “Be ye ashamed, oh ye husbandmen; howl, oh ye vine dressers,” this is verse 11, “for the wheat and the barley, because the harvest of the field is perished.” So at this stage now, this is affecting the priest’s livelihood because obviously they get a portion of some of the offerings to help sustain them and their lives. So this is now turned to the temple and this becomes now a lament because of the offerings that are now going to suffer as a result of being stripped geographically in this region.

Hank Smith: 00:11:01 If it is an invading army, then it’s Babylon takes the temple.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:11:05 That’s right. So this has larger ramifications for everybody.

Hank Smith: 00:11:08 Aaron, when this is coming down, is this why Joel calls for them to fast?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:11:14 It is. So at this point, it’s now we’ve realized that there is an urgency, that there is something that we need to react to, something we need to respond to. And it is at this point, chapter one 13, “Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: and come and lie all night in sackcloth.” So this outward gesture that we have to have abject humility, that all is about to be lost. And it talks about for the meat offering and the drink offering is withheld from the house of your God. So everything that they offer in the form of these libations and liquids and grains are about to be lost through all of this. And so the answer is in verse 14, “Sanctify ye a fast, and call a solemn assembly.” So that just means a gathering. Call everybody in. Call in anybody who will come. And gather the elders and the inhabitants of the land into the house of the Lord your God, and cry unto the Lord.

  00:12:11 So at this stage, it’s a call to come to the temple and again, participate now in a fast and a gathering that’s specifically oriented towards pleading to the Lord for help. Because again, all of these commodities that are necessary for temple worship that are usually in the Torah described as the givings of God in the form of blessings, now all of a sudden we’re feeling that this is a form of judgment, that these have been withdrawn for that region. So the book of Joel feels very heavy on judgment and that behaviors matter, that actions matter. And so now this is a clarion call that it’s time to get back to the house of the Lord and unitedly plead for help. And ultimately that’s what’s happening now in verse 14.

Hank Smith: 00:12:58 Because in 15, “Alas for the day, for the day of the Lord is at hand. We’ve got to do something and as destruction from the Almighty, shall it come?”

John Bytheway: 00:13:06 That looks like it runs all the way through chapter one. What’s the transition then to chapter two? Is it any different or is it the same call, blow ye the trumpet in Zion?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:13:16 This is where again we start feeling the larger scope of Joel. Chapter one 19 says, “Oh Lord, to thee will I cry for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field and the beast of the field cry also unto thee and the rivers of water are dried up.” So we just get this feeling that all is lost. And of course, fire and devouring are often associated with the power of God, but now in the form of the destruction that’s coming at the hands of invading adversaries. And so by the time we now get to chapter two, we’re starting to feel like the day of the Lord isn’t monolithic, meaning this isn’t just something that’s happening once, or anticipating one event in a future time, but this is now talking about judgements and sort of these cataclysmic type of scenarios that are surrounded by blessings concurrently through all of this.

  00:14:12 So we’re going to see these different phases in, yeah, blow the trumpet in Zion, we’re now introduced to the concept of Zion and blowing the trumpet, you’re all familiar with in the New Testament times and the inscription that was found there at the southwest corner of Jerusalem of blow the trumpet because it’s not only an invitation to come to the temple in worship, blowing the trumpet can also be an alarm of invading trouble and problems that are coming. And so Zion is now being introduced and it’s a very theologically significant concept in the book of Joel. It’s mentioned seven times, and so there might be something about that number seven that numerologically is trying to tell us that Zion is a place of perfection, but it’s used as a place of refuge, a place of escape. It’s also used as a place where God dwells.

  00:15:05 Sometimes it’s used as a place that defines his presence amongst others and just a place where he’ll rule from. So all of these are trying to give us these various descriptions of Zion and a place where God’s justice will eventually be enacted from. And so the day of the Lord, it serves two purposes in relation to Zion. It’s a negative one for those opposing the will of God, but also a positive one who shelters though. So it really is encapsulating this concept of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

  00:15:38 And I think the book is trying to invite us, what will that day look like for you individually? Great, dreadful somewhere in between? But this trumpet blowing now in verse two is trying to help us understand for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand. So again, the question is which time period is that referring to? Because not all of us will exist at the time what the book is culminating in and that is the coming of the Lord. But at some point each of us meets our maker and the question is, are we prepared for that? And this seems to be transitioning now to the day of the Lord cometh and it’s nigh at hand.

Hank Smith: 00:16:21 So it’s multiple fulfillments. You could kind of use the book of Joel in different scenarios and the ultimate scenario is the coming of the Lord.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:16:30 Yes. But that doesn’t mean that it’s only focused on that one singular event. It’s focusing on several different occasions that are supposed to demonstrate the power and judgment of God that culminate with him coming.

Hank Smith: 00:16:45 As I was reading, it feels almost like a book of Revelation type feel to it where you’re supposed to go slow and kind of read between the lines and try to figure out what exactly is he talking about here where maybe a contemporary of Joel, this would be easy to understand.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:17:01 That’s interesting that you state that because there’s this inscription from Deir Alla, which is in modern day Jordan from the eighth century. And you may have heard of Balaam stories and the Balaam prophecies, or Balaam, and he’s actually prophesying in there in the eighth century, so possibly contemporaneous whenever Joel lived. But it has a feel that has some similarities to this and describing days of darkness and the celestial heavens being darkened and just looking forward to this scenario of putting an end to sort these cataclysmic type of events that the world will face. So it’s interesting that you make that comment that a contemporary may have understood this better because the contemporaries may have been in line with that with some of the inscriptional material that we have from that region that understood some of these features of prophecy.

Hank Smith: 00:17:48 Okay. I read the verses and I get that it’s a dark terrible time like verse three, “Fire devoureth before them and behind them a flame burneth the land is as the garden of Eden before them and behind them a desolate wilderness. Yea and nothing shall escape them.” So it used to be like the garden and now it’s going to be desolate in front of them. Did I get that right?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:18:10 It sounds pretty bleak.

Hank Smith: 00:18:11 Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:18:13 Yeah. And of course now our conception of the Garden of Eden. So we think of this lush area and perhaps we’re supposed to be taken back into descriptions of Genesis where all was well, but also that takes us into a paradigm of a fall that is in need of restoration. So there could be something that’s harkening in that way, but we’re just getting this concept now that there is going to be a desolation. But the theology is is that eventually that that will be restored into this Edenic type of state that just has to do with lushness and prosperity.

Hank Smith: 00:18:50 Do we get there in the book of Joel? Do we get to the restoration portions?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:18:54 This is chapter three 16, “The Lord shall roar out of Zion and utter his voice from Jerusalem and the heavens and the earth shall shake, but the Lord will be the hope of his people and strengthen the strength of his children.” And eventually it’s going to talk about God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain and describe that there won’t be any more strangers coming through and that there’ll be rivers flowing through the mountains and new wine and milk flowing. So there is hope at the end of all of this that eventually all of this is going to be restored in a place where it says in verse 20 that Judah will dwell forever and Jerusalem from generation to generation. So there does seem to be a reversal of this scenario in the end of days, permanently instead of temporarily.

Hank Smith: 00:19:42 And that’s because of the coming of the Messiah?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:19:44 Yes, that is the messianic feel of the book.

John Bytheway: 00:19:47 Let’s look at Joel 2:28 because it’s such a well-known one among Latter Day Saints I would think.

Hank Smith: 00:19:54 Read that for us, John.

John Bytheway: 00:19:55 “And it shall come to pass afterward that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. Your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.”

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:20:08 So as we transition from chapter 2, 3 to this fire that devour with everything, this is where we start getting into verse eight, that neither shall one thrust another and they shall walk everyone in his path and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded. And we’re starting to get into really the nebulous. I don’t even know how to begin to comprehend. I understand what it says, but I don’t know how to comprehend what it looks like or what it means because at this stage we start seeing now an adversary that basically can’t be slain. And so again, we’re starting to set up the power of God, the power of his troops, because Lord of hosts, Adonai Tzva’ot literally means Lord of armies.

  00:20:53 And so for Joseph Fielding Smith, he looks at this and I think this is in the Old Testament manual where it says in here Joel is not thinking about any earthly army. The Lord’s army is not an earthly army. And he says, “But he does have a terrible army and when that army marches it will put an end to the other armies no matter how terrible they may be.” And so he says in these closing words I have read to you that he would do this thing and he would drive this terrible army into the wilderness, barren and desolate. He’s saying, “You know what, I’m not talking about the United States or England in all of this.” He’s like, “This is talking about God who actually is coming back.” And so for Joseph Fielding Smith, he’s starting to see this now as a clarion call that because we are going to face judgment, and of course within the book we have the Valley of Jehoshaphat and Jehoshaphat is a name that means Jehovah will judge.

  00:21:50 So it is a book of judgment and it’s saying that eventually we are going to encounter an all-powerful God who is merciful, but he also shaphat, so he also judges. And no matter how hard we try and oppose him, eventually there’s going to come a point where that’s just not even possible. So the history of the world, it’s presenting all of these different, I guess time periods where people have opposed God, opposed his people and there’s going to come a point when he actually comes again in power that that’s going to be futile. And so with all of this, we’re just seeing these calls in verse 12 that says, “Therefore also now say at the Lord, turn you everyone even to me with all your heart and with fasting and with weeping and mourning, so rend your heart and not your garments and turn unto the Lord your God for he is gracious and merciful.”

  00:22:44 So in the midst of all of this just horrific type of a scenario, we’re still seeing that God is gracious and merciful. So again, it’s a self-evaluation that says, “Where do I stand in that equation?” And there’s a Joseph Smith translation for 14A that talks about, “Repent for who knows, but he’ll return and leave a blessing behind him that you may offer the meat offering.” So it’s referring back now to being able to restore what was lost in the temple, to now being able to return back and enjoy that covenant. And again the blowing the trumpet, gather and sanctify everybody. But this has to be sincere. So the weeping and mourning and fasting and the rending of the heart, this has to be genuine in these efforts of coming back to God and when they are that God is gracious and merciful. That’s the good news behind all of this.

Hank Smith: 00:23:36 We haven’t talked, I don’t think on the podcast about rending your garments. What does that mean and why would he say rend your heart instead?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:23:45 These are images that are trying to get us to understand the broken heart, the contrite spirit, to be in a position that just says, “I’m totally teachable. I’m totally amenable to God. I’m totally willing to listen and allow him.” Because honestly now of course the garment had a practical function, but it also could have a covenantal function and the same with the heart. It’s the seat of all of our thoughts, our feelings, the desires that we have. How do we submit those to God in a way that is productive and fruitful for us to the point where I can have it genuine change of who I am, not just in an outward appearance, but who I genuinely become. Because verse 18 in chapter two, it takes us back into this concept that I will pity his people. So some people think this is a reference directly to Hosea in this ruhama type of scenario that God is going to have mercy to those who rend their hearts and are teachable and malleable and who are genuinely trying to enjoy that relationship with him. It’s available to them.

Hank Smith: 00:24:48 So I can rend my garments, that’s outward, but rending my heart that’s genuine as you said, it’s got to be genuine.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:24:54 And we see that in the New Testament says, Beware of the outward appearances and the worship that is mostly external rather than something that has been internalized.

Hank Smith: 00:25:04 Not necessarily the challenge to just behave, but the challenge to become.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:25:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:25:10 There’s the song, I Am a Child of God that originally Naomi Randall wrote to teach me all that I must know. And the story I think we’ve all heard is that President Kimball suggested that be changed to teach me all that I must do. And then President Oaks gave that amazing talk in I want to say October of 2000 called the Challenge to Become that Hank’s kind of talking about. And I would love them to, based on that talk, change it again to teach me all that I must be because that’s what it sounds like it’s talking about here, focusing on becoming, not just doing a checklist, but what are we becoming in the process of all of this?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:25:53 Yeah. And Joel, he is not implying that blessing means the elimination of obstacles in pain, but that God’s presence brings people through these events and trials, that he can become a very real part of this injunction. In verse 22, “Be not afraid. Be glad.” Verse 23, “Ye children of Zion rejoice in the Lord your God for he hath given you the former rain moderately.” So again, there’s nothing in the book that’s trying to say that we’re going to be spared trials in our lives, that ancient Israel was spared trials in their lives. Again, they were always on the crossroads between superpowers who just wanted their resources, who wanted everything that was available there. And these books are trying to get us to understand that again, keeping a covenant doesn’t mean a life free of adversity, but there is hope in the future. Hope in a point where Jehoshaphat, where you do stand before your maker and you do so with a clean conscience that says, “I’ve done everything I can, especially through adversity to stay close to thee.”

  00:26:57 Because verse 25 says, “And I will restore you the years that the locust has eaten.” So at that point it’s looking back at history and saying all of these points of suffering and all of these times of restoration. So it’s talking about cycles of loss and gain and restoration and hope that part of what I think the book is saying is that for the scoffers, for the scorners, for the ones who have looked back and said, “Where’s been your God through all of this?” Just say, “I know exactly where he’s been, He’s been with me.” But look at all these bad things that have happened. It’s okay. The promise of a covenantal life, never promised that those would be alleviated or removed completely, but what it did promise was a life in God that gave me peace through all of that suffering and trials. Verse 27 in chapter two says, “And you shall know that I am in the midst of Israel and that I am the Lord your God and none else and my people shall never be ashamed.”

  00:27:58 And so again, it’s kind of looking back and just sort of inviting us to think that all of those times we look at scripture and say, “Where was God in the people’s lives then? Why did he let this happen?” This was never about God losing a love for any of his children. It was about helping them through and loving them more through those difficult times, because there were a series of loss and gain and again, restoration following those difficult times.

  00:28:25 And whether that’s the first temple period, the second temple period, exile, again, this is just, it’s listing a time where eventually what lies on the other side of the next tragedy is God. And Zion is being presented now as a place of refuge that says, “This will be the end of all of that pain and suffering and the earth will now recognize its sovereign ruler and that will be the Redeemer of the world.” And so I think it’s inviting us to put into perspective the history of the world and realize that eventually God will take over this and that is the hope of Israel, that all that was lost will eventually be made right.

Hank Smith: 00:29:07 I love this idea. I’ll restore to you the years that you lost. I thought of this from Elder Wirthlin. He said, “The Lord compensates the faithful for every loss. That which is taken away from those who love the Lord will be added unto them in his own way. While it might not come at the time we desire, the faithful will know that every tear today will eventually be returned a hundred fold with tears of rejoicing and gratitude.” That to me feels like verse 25. I will restore to you the years. Like you said, Aaron, I will help you through this. I won’t take it away, I won’t take away the difficulties, but I will help you through them. Chapter two did have a bit of a change of a tone to it from one side to the other.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:29:54 Yeah. At this stage this is now about trying to figure out how do we abide this. This is chapter 2:11. “The Lord shall utter his voice before his army for his camp is very great, for he is strong, that executed his word for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible and who can abide it?” And that’s what we’re going to hear in Malachi is how do we actually get through this? How do we abide the day? And Malachi’s an interesting one because that’s a scripture that’s listed in every book of scripture in the cannon of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So we encounter Malachi and some variations of it in the Old Testament, in the New Testament, in the Doctrine and Covenants, in the Pearl of Great Price. So Moroni was very clear in his conversations with Joseph as well as the Lord’s conversations with Joseph that the reason that all of this is happening in the Restoration and this renewal of the covenant was to prepare people for the coming of the son of God.

  00:30:59 And so this question now was vital to people in different eras. How do we abide the day of his coming? And again, whenever we meet our maker, are we prepared for it? And that’s when we have sort of these genuine calls to turning back to God and to weep and mourning. Not in this loathing, self-deprecation, but for a sincere desire to connect and be connected via covenant with the one that truly is all powerful, all loving and all kind. Because it’s just so easy to forget through our trials that God is in verse 16, gather the people, sanctify the congregation. It says, “Let the bridegroom go forth out of his chamber and the bride out of her closet. Let the priest and the ministers weep.” All of these are just trying to give us hope through adversity and realize that all of these things that sometimes we just view as abstract art, is something that is going to be a reality that every person who’s ever lived on this planet will eventually confront face to face. And that is the bridegroom, the one who’s done everything, the creator and be able to enjoy that.

  00:32:10 And so all of these are invitations not to fear and the tone of this is really sort of alleviated by the time we get to verse 28. And this is what John was talking about, is now sort of the spiritual endowments that people are going to enjoy as it’s introduced by verse 27, “You shall know that I am in the midst of Israel and that I the Lord your God and none else and my people shall never be ashamed.”

  00:32:37 So it’s recognizing the sovereignty of God, which has been something that’s been so hard to do because he hasn’t physically always been present upon the planet and it’s easy to sort of withdraw and say, “Well then this isn’t real, that this all just seems so sensational. It’s hard to believe in because if he does exist, why doesn’t he exist in front of my face right now?” But all of these are trying to invite us to say, “Well you can have that relationship even though his physical presence may not be here now, there will come a time where you experience his presence and everything that comes with great or dreadful, that that’s going to be something that then becomes glorious as we’re confronted with that.”

Hank Smith: 00:33:15 So am I right to say verse 11, “Who can abide it?” And the answer is 12 through almost the rest of the chapter. Who can abide it? Those who rend their heart, not their garments, those who turn to the Lord their God and I’ll pour out my spirit on them. They don’t need to be afraid. They can be glad. I’ll restore the years if you’ll turn to me with all your heart, with fasting, with mourning, rend your heart and not your garments. Is that kind of the feel I should get from chapter two?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:33:44 It does feel like that’s the answer. And again, interesting, where do you do all of this stuff? At the temple. So there’s something about this that’s pulling us back in. So everything that we saw that felt like the temple was somehow losing grip and control of the offerings that have been stripped are now coming back into play saying, “Don’t be afraid, be glad and rejoice because this will be reversed.” And again, we see that at different periods throughout the first temple period, the second temple period and in modern temple periods that this has always been the hope to try and get people back into this mindset of restoration and that concept, I will restore what years the locusts have taken from you.

Hank Smith: 00:34:27 And that’s where then this great prophecy comes in verse 28.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:34:30 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:34:31 That I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy. Your old men shall dream dreams. Your young men shall see visions and it goes on saying, “I will show wonders in heaven and the earth. The sun will be turned to darkness, the moon to blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord shall come.” That’s the prophecy we hear from Joseph Smith history.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:34:50 Yes. And that is one of the conversations that Moroni has with Joseph Smith. And it’s interesting because this is all inclusive language, this is a drastic turn of events from the Old Testament prophecy because who prophesies? A prophet.

Hank Smith: 00:35:07 Prophets. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:35:07 So all of a sudden now we’re in a period of spiritual endowment. And of course this is interesting because we also see this in the book of Acts, in this period of Pentecost. This is now expanding those who are going to be receiving these spiritual gifts. It’s men, it’s women, it’s children, it’s boys, it’s girls, it’s old men. It’s all inclusive. And so this is breaking the conception. This is Moses’s call that says “Would that all would be prophets unto God.” So it’s not eliminating the need of a prophet, but it’s giving the hope that people from top to bottom across everything, and again servants, handmaids, nobody is excluded from being able to enjoy these spiritual gifts. It’s interesting because if you look at several ways that this was interpreted in the early days of the restoration in the restored church in times and seasons from February 15th, 1842, they’re speaking specifically about Joel chapter 2:28-32.

  00:36:15 Part of it is they’re saying that the knowledge of God shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea and all shall know the Lord from the least to the greatest. The spirit of God is the spirit of knowledge and revelation. And when so generally diffused amongst the saints, it will enable them to know God alike. So one sense in the way that the early church was understanding this was again that this would be an all-inclusive type of spiritual endowment that people could participate in. And again, they were quoting in the times and seasons about people will not be ashamed. So again, all of these feelings, the pointing fingers, the great and spacious building that sort of tries to get us to feel like this is all a big sham, this is all a big hoax. How could you ever know this stuff?

  00:37:03 And I think what Joel is saying is that everybody is going to eventually know this stuff and ultimately now, these spiritual endowments are going to be a part of this. So what’s also interesting is another way that this is being used in the early church and the restoration John Coral in a Brief History of the Church of Christ of the Latter-day Saints in 1839. They’re using it in a way to describe that there still is a need for prophets on behalf of the people. So just because we now can enjoy those personally, those spiritual gifts, they’re also saying the apostle Peter in explaining the prophecy of Joel said, “And it shall come to pass in the last day, sayeth God, I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and your young men shall see visions and your old men shall dream dreams. And my servants and on my hand maidens, I will pour out and in those days of my spirit and they shall prophesy.

  00:37:58 Instead, thereof of there being no prophets after Christ. It looked to me as if God meant that there should be many for the assertions are positive, that your sons and your daughters shall prophesy and that this should be in the last days. Now if the last days are passed and gone, then we give up looking for prophets. But if not, then the promise stands good for more prophets.” So it’s interesting that they’re seeing this as all-inclusive and expansive, but also that this doesn’t mean that it’s a free for all, that there still needs to be a prophet or prophets in place. And interestingly, general conference exhibits that better than anything. Ultimately, that there are prophets involved in all of this that are leading the way in this endeavor as a larger body of the church. It has some similar parallels with what happened on the day of Pentecost. But again, the feel is now that blessings are available to individuals but it doesn’t exclude the need for prophets in general.

John Bytheway: 00:38:59 Well put. I marked the word that I had never marked before in verse 28. I mean let me emphasize it. I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh. And that’s what you’re emphasizing here. And I think that President Nelson has asked us all to learn how do we hear him, that phrase that from the first vision, we all need to learn to hear him and to be guided, to be connected to God that way. But like you said, there still is a prophet, there’s a president of the church, there still are keys to administer the kingdom of God on earth, but all of us can learn to hear him. Really like that word all in there. And like you said, men, women, children, all of us.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:39:43 And I think the hope of all of this is that we are thinking about a time when this all comes to pass and verse 32 says, “It shall come to pass that whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance as the Lord has said. And in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.” And it’s interesting to think as you were describing that John, that this doesn’t necessarily just have to include members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I remember a talk that Elder Eyring gave, Elder Eyring like that guy, he’s always giving these insights that nobody ever thinks of. His prophetic leadership has just been fantastic. He was giving a talk and he’s just saying he was in a land in South America, I think is where, or Central America, I can’t remember where he was at.

  00:40:33 But ultimately he just said that they were working with government leaders. The church was trying to help some of the physical needs of people in that region. And he just said, “I had this overwhelming powerful feeling that God doesn’t always work through nations but he works through good people in those nations.” He just said, “At that moment I just felt that the Lord is raised up lots of good people who are trying to bless the lives of the people of their countries and ultimately that he is blessing and revealing in ways that maybe we don’t always comprehend, just to benefit humankind. Because sometimes we just get so caught up that the only way that we measure success is by numbers in a certain genre, not recognizing that ultimately sometimes the biggest success is just being able to help somebody through discouragement, through providing for physical needs. Whatever it may be.” I mean this is about God’s family and each one matters to him. And I think some of these gifts are supposed to be employed to bless not only individual lives but the people over whom they have stewardship.

Hank Smith: 00:41:44 Fantastic. All flesh. Sometimes we as Latter-day saints think we have a corner on some of these things where the Lord would say, “No, no, no, it’s much bigger than that.” So Aaron, chapter two finishes very hopeful. Does that same feeling go into chapter three?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:42:01 No, not really.

Hank Smith: 00:42:02 Or do we switch? Okay.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:42:07 So I mean we get to chapter three and basically for behold in those days. So again, it seems like something future, whatever that means, it’s nebulous. And in that time when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem, I will gather all nations and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat. So at this stage we’re encountering judgment. We don’t know where the valley of Jehoshaphat is. Jehoshaphat was a king. He did have some battles against Moabites and Ammonites and some people think that maybe it’s there, some people think it’s the Kidron Valley. What it’s saying is that there’s going to come a point where judgment is a very real thing and at this point in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, I will plead with them there for my people and for my heritage Israel whom they have scattered among the nations.

  00:42:55 So we’re now getting of this larger Apocalyptic type feel where there are more things at play than we may sometimes realize. And yet at the same time, I don’t even know how to begin to comprehend what this all looks like. Our family lived in Jerusalem for a few different years and I’ve tried to figure out what all of these prophecies about the Mount of Olives and mountains cleaving in twain, what all of this stuff looks like. And it’s far beyond my comprehension of how this unfolds. I believe in it. I know that these things will happen. I just don’t comprehend them fully, because we’re just getting into something now that is beyond my experience in life. Spiritually, I’m trying to understand the message when it comes to some of these scenarios that are presented in chapter three just my mind can’t grasp what this all looks like, though I believe in them.

Hank Smith: 00:43:54 How is he going to gather all nations to a single valley and plead for Israel? Are these some of the nations that have destroyed them? Because he says they, some of these nations have cast lots for my people. So is this going back to Assyria and Babylon?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:44:09 Yeah, verse four starts to name a few of them. So Tyre and Zidon, so Phoenicians and they are starting to list some of the traditional adversaries of that region. Verse six talks about the Grecians. So people try and identify what time period is then. Because if we’re now talking about Greece, this is taking us into later developments, at least as far as this region. And so it is now starting to list some of these traditional adversaries through time. And verse nine just brings us back to, you have to proclaim this among the Gentiles, prepare a war, wake up the mighty men and let the men of war draw near and let them come up, beat your plow shares into swords and your pruning hooks into spears. And let the weak say, I am strong. This is a reversal of Isaiah and Micah. And so you ask yourself, what is the rhetorical purpose of all of this?

  00:45:02 What is Joel trying to tell us through all of this? And it seems to be that this is not going to be peaceful. And everything that Isaiah and Micah is trying to do is give us hope that war comes to an end. And now it’s like, you know what? You tell everybody they’re going to battle because Jehoshaphat. There will be judgment. So that is kind of what’s happening here.

Hank Smith: 00:45:25 Wow.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:45:25 And these plow shares are now used for weapons of war. Again, assuming that the reader is familiar with the hopeful prophecies of Isaiah and Micah, this becomes a powerful tool now to say, “You know what? You’re going to come to battle against God but it’s going to be futile.” And I think that this is more of just like sometimes we get caught up in saying these are just physical battles, but perhaps these are also trying to emphasize a spiritual component of all of this that just helps us in verse 12 says, “Be awakened.”

  00:45:57 So heathen, let the heathen, Goim, in Hebrew it just means let all the nations, let everybody be awakened and come to the valley of Jehoshaphat for there will I sit to judge all the heathens, so again, all the nations roundabout. I think this concept of not being ashamed is just trying to put forth a scenario that just says, “You don’t have to be embarrassed for anything about the way that history is unfolded or any time that you think God has been absent from your lives or the lives of people.” And I think that all these are trying to say that he has been present. And Hosea again was very powerful in trying to depict that. And this is saying eventually God will come and make all things right that the world put wrong. Just this call to say, “Let’s make sure that we’re individually investing our lives into covenants that we make and into a paradigm that just says, ‘I still believe.’ Whatever the world may say, whatever jeerings, whatever scoffing, whatever lack of belief.'” And it’s not that everybody treats believers that way, but it’s just hold on.

Hank Smith: 00:47:04 It is there. Yeah.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:47:06 And these things will… Eventually, everything will be reconciled for good.

Hank Smith: 00:47:11 Eventually everything will be reconciled for good. I like that. Look at verse 16, “The Lord shall roar out of Zion.”

John Bytheway: 00:47:16 Here’s that. I underlined that, Hank, because you talked about roaring the other day.

Hank Smith: 00:47:22 Yeah. The Lord shall roar out of Zion. He’s not a lamb in this scenario.

John Bytheway: 00:47:28 So shall ye know I am the Lord your God dwelling in Zion. I’m just so intrigued as I’ve been to the holy land that I hadn’t really noticed before how much the scriptures talk about not just a people, but a place. They talk about Jerusalem a lot and you having lived there, I bet you have some insight on that too.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:47:50 All of this leads us up to verse 14 where it says, “For the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision.” And of course we get all this, “The sun and the moon shall be darkened and the stars shall withdraw their shining.” We start to try and comprehend, and sometimes that’s described as eclipses, lunar eclipses and solar eclipses. And we try and find a mechanism to explain that, how that works and how that’s possible. In ancient societies, they were interested in astronomy. But when they looked at these basically in Mesopotamian literature, eclipses were a pretty bad omen. And they were often a sign of judgment. They’re looking more of like, “Oh, what is coming? What is about to take place here?” And they see it as a bad omen, at least in Mesopotamian literature. So when all of this stuff is happening, it’s trying to say judgment is on the horizon, and these celestial type of events is now leading into what John was talking about.

  00:48:51 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion. So all of this stuff that grasps our attention in the heavens is now going to be perceived now as the Lord roaring out of Zion. We see this in Joseph Smith Matthew and coming in glory, nobody’s going to miss this. This is not going to be something. And Matthew talks about this. You can go look in the nooks and the crannies, but when this happens, everyone is going to see this and nobody’s going to miss this one. And so this roaring out of Zion and this voice out of Jerusalem, but the Lord will be the hope of his people. And I think that’s really what the message is through all of this, is not to be bogged down with all of these signs of the times, the things that can be so disconcerting to the point where they weigh us down to inaction, but to just say, “Okay, I got it.” But here’s my hope and this is my hope.

  00:49:50 And this is the strength of the children of Israel. So we always often talk about the children of Israel, and this isn’t about a political entity, this isn’t about modern politics. It’s talking about covenant relationships that are available to anyone and everyone who will come and enjoy those. And because ultimately verse 17 is now saying, “I am the Lord your God, dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain.” So John, there’s your comment about holiness. So kadosh, it does represent something of the inner sanctuary of the temple or a description of the temple, but it also describes holiness codes about people who are preparing to go into those sacred spaces. So this is about development, it’s about personal wellbeing. But the promise in verse 17 is that, “Eventually my mountain will be holy and I will dwell with Zion there. And there are not going to be any more strangers coming through here.”

  00:50:42 The stranger concept, all of these armies, this is over and God is going to put an end to this once and for all. That’s what’s leading up to how the book ends. “It shall come to pass in that day.” So we keep hearing this future time. “In that day, the mountains shall drop down a new wine and the hills shall flow with milk and the rivers of Judah will flow with water.” So again, we’re just sort of seeing that. And all of this, the fountains shall come out of the house of the Lord. So these are actually really interesting because these are iconographically depicted in ancient temple scenes where you can see temples and you can see deities in gods and water and rivers are flowing from the gods and from the temples because it symbolizes life, it symbolizes the ability to survive.

  00:51:28 The ability to live. Fertility. And all of this now is that we just see the house of the Lord as a place now of survival, of sustenance, of giving, of living waters. And all of this is the hope. And again, I’m not sure we’re supposed to just be focusing on one particular place at one particular time. And these could be paradigmatic that way of just these fountains of life that will flow from God when he comes again. And that Judah will dwell forever and Jerusalem from generation to generation. And that is sort of the hope of the book amongst all of these scenes and the history of the world that have been so tragic. All is finally put right in the end.

Hank Smith: 00:52:11 So judgment is coming, but you don’t need to be afraid if you’re on the Lord’s side of things.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:52:18 Sounds like… Don’t we sing a song about that?

Hank Smith: 00:52:20 Yeah. Aaron, this has been really good. I see both Hosea and Joel have these elements of hope in them. When we first started our interview it was hope against the background of hopelessness. So do you feel like both of these books fit into that description?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:52:39 I do. Joseph Fielding Smith said, “We find in Joel, Zephaniah, Zachariah, they’re all proclaiming that in this last day, the day when the sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood and the stars fall from heaven, that the nations of the earth would gather against Jerusalem.” And again, whatever that looks like, I’m not certain how this all looks, but he says “All of them speak of it. And when that time comes, the Lord is going to come out of his hiding place.” And again, I think that that is the hope of all of this. And I do think that these books are trying to help us understand that we just don’t give up with all of the scenarios in our lives that may lead us down paths of doubt, that may lead us down paths of wondering whether or not God is concerning, whether he cares, whether he is in a position to help.

  00:53:27 I think both of these books, particularly Joel, in a very astounding way, is trying to say, “There is nobody who can confront the Lord and become victorious if they’re trying to battle against him.” I think by presenting this coming day of not only judgment, but of the greatness of coming, of the one who loves you, the one who cares about you, the one who has never, ever abandoned you, even if you temporarily abandoned him. That is I think, the big hope of all of this.

  00:53:56 And I think it encapsulates something that Spencer W. Kimball said and it is, “Let us harken to those we sustain as prophets and seers as if our eternal life depended upon it because it does.” I think that that is something that the book continues to encourage us to do, is to keep trusting in the ones that’ve seen prophecies, the ones that receive revelations, knowing that each of us can receive that personal inspiration in our own life, but not to give up the trust and hope of the prophet and the seers and the revelators who are trying to lead us down, and that’s exactly what Hosea and Joel are doing in their days, is trying to lead people back to God.

Hank Smith: 00:54:36 Aaron, this has been a fantastic day. I mean, I have taken different highlighters throughout. I’ve got yellow, blue, and red. Because I was marking, here’s judgment, here’s hope, here’s the call to action. Here’s what you do. I just feel like I understand Hosea and Joel in ways, well obviously in ways I never have before because I didn’t understand them before. So Aaron, I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as both a believing Latter-day Saint and a Bible scholar. How’d that come about and what’s that journey been like for you?

Dr. Aaron Schade: 00:55:10 I think that where I began to notice something really different in my life was I was a missionary in Poland. I lived in the old Warsaw Ghetto. I would see things that evoked in me questions that I just simply didn’t know the answer to about Judaism, about the Old Testament, about what the people that I was learning to love there in that country, what they had experienced and the various persecutions that they had gone through. So I just sort of determined that when I got home, I would start taking Old Testament classes, I would start taking Hebrew classes, I’d learn about Judaism, Islam, and it just sort of started snowballing just because I wanted to know more because I just felt like I didn’t have enough answers to satisfy me. I believed in the gospel, I believed in the church, but there was just something that says, “How do I understand it better? How do I understand it more?”

  00:56:06 It just one thing led to another. I just realized that I love studying languages. I loved studying the religious history of different peoples and different groups of people. And so I started learning a little Arabic. I started learning about Islam. Even to this day, I work in Jordan in most summers, and I just love the Jordanians. I love Islam. It is just, I love to watch them pray. Our workers will sometimes stop in the middle of the day and just start praying there on our site. And there’s just something that evoked a feeling that there’s so many good people that love God and just what God has done for them in their lives. And of course all of the good people around the world that are just living lives and doing things that make such a big difference to so many people, whether they believe in God or not.

  00:56:50 But there was just something that drove me to say, “I want to know more.” And so I started taking all these classes at school, ended up taking a bunch of ancient Near Eastern studies classes and tried to just say, “You know what? Let’s keep moving forward in all of this.” Went to grad school and studied Egyptology, studied the Hebrew Bible, some archeology and just ultimately it just kept leading me forward. And of course, as you go along and you study all this stuff, it’s really easy to get caught up in the things that we don’t know because there are lots of things that we don’t know. And one of my favorite titles of a book is Working with No Data. And it just sort of describes my life. In an excavation, you’re digging something up that nobody has seen in 2,800 years and trying to interpret it.

  00:57:36 You’re trying to reconstruct dead languages that don’t preserve what all of the nuances of that language were. It’s just always trying to find answers where there are none. And something that always drove me through my graduate studies was that there was always a source that I could turn back to, someplace that I could get the answers that were most important to me. No matter how much I loved my studies, and I did, most of my days started with, I just don’t have enough hours in the day to accomplish everything that I need to. Just help me learn what I can in a way that will be meaningful and allow me to accomplish as much as I can to do something good today. That was kind of my journey of faith as I never really felt tempted to disbelief amongst anything that may have been presented to me that that says, “Oh, this is a contradiction in the Bible.” There was always an anchor in my life.

  00:58:31 I just tried to do my best. I didn’t know it at the time, but let God prevail was something that I was trying to do without even knowing it. That concept now that just says, “Don’t ever give up on that, don’t let go of that.” Because we’re always going to be presented with ideas that seem contradictory. We’re always going to be presented with ideas that seem like they may be a theological knot that we just can’t simply untie, but ultimately I trust in an all-knowing omniscient God who does know the answers to all these things. And I’m not going to let trump what I don’t know trump what I do know about him and about his love and about his compassion.

  00:59:06 So for me, that’s always been the anchor in my life, that through my studies, they’ve only accentuated. And in fact, it’s given me a bit of humility. Most people wouldn’t describe me as humble, but at least my humility in my approach to God, I realize that he knows so much more than I do. And that’s something that has increased my appreciation and love for God. And so that’s been something that I’ve just always tried to make my guiding principle in life, is to realize that though I don’t have the answers, I know he does. And those will come in time, whenever he chooses to reveal those.

Hank Smith: 00:59:37 John Bytheway, how did we get this opportunity to sit at the feet of these scholars?

John Bytheway: 00:59:43 Yeah. Your journey and your testimony of how much goodness there is out there in the world. I know Hank, you’ve seen that in the Holy Land and the kindness of people, of Muslims. It’s amazing. Just thank you for sharing all of this with us today and that perspective.

Dr. Aaron Schade: 01:00:01 It’s been my pleasure. Thanks for having me on.

Hank Smith: 01:00:03 It’s been beautiful. We want to thank Dr. Aaron Schade for being with us. We want to thank all of you for listening. We also want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. We hope all of you will join us next week because we’ll be back with another episode of followHIM.

  01:00:24 We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.