Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to Follow Him. A weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:20 Hello everyone. Welcome to FollowHIM. My name is Hank Smith. I am your host. I am here with my book eating co-host, John Bytheway. John, I was reading Ezekiel and he ate a book and I said, that reminds me of John. You go through books like crazy, don’t you? You’re a book reader.

John Bytheway: 00:40 I have a lot of books. My kids are like, “Dad have you read all these?” Well. I’ve skimmed a lot of them, but thanks.

Hank Smith: 00:48 John, Book of Ezekiel today. We needed a brilliant mind to join us. Who is here?

John Bytheway: 00:53 We got one. We are so happy to welcome Dr. Jan Martin with us today. She was born in San Diego, raised in Albuquerque, New Mexico and Holladay, Utah. Graduated from Skyline High School, go Eagles. She served a mission for the church in Richmond, Virginia. Married Jared Martin. She has a bachelor’s degree from BYU in Physical Education, K through 12 with a minor in German teaching. That’s cool. A master’s degree in Exercise Physiology. And my favorite, a PhD from the University of York in the UK in 16th century English Bible translation, with a focus on early English reformers. And she has taught in the BYU Physical Education department, taught for LDS seminaries and institutes for five years at Timpview High School. Three years at Spanish Fork, a year at Provo High. And her research interests include early translations of the Bible, early English reformers such as Tyndale, William Tyndale, Miles Coverdale, John Frith, King James translation of the Bible, the development of the language of English theology.

 John Bytheway: 02:04 So we’re excited to have her. Something I want our listeners to know about Hank. We want our listeners to know about a book called And They Shall Grow Together, the Bible in the Book of Mormon and it’s published by Religious Study Center and Deseret Book. And Dr. Martin has an article called The Prophet Nephi and the covenantal Nature of Cutoff Cursed Skin of Blackness and Loathsome. And it was very well received at Education Week. She presented some of this material. I’m so excited for all of us to read that and get a better understanding of what’s going on there. So thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Martin, and welcome.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 02:45 You’re welcome. Thank you. It’s nice to be here. Excited.

Hank Smith: 02:48 John, I got to tell you, I’ve known Jan for quite a few years and she is as good as she is. Brilliant. She’s just kind to the core. She really is. Just one of the kindest people. And I’ll throw in something that I want our listeners to go find. I have all my students listen to this. It’s on the Why Religion podcast, which is a friend of our podcast. And it’s episode 30 with Dr. Martin and it’s the Theology of King James language. It changed my view on how the Book of Mormon was written and why it was written the way it was. I have all my students listen to it. It really is good stuff. I think I’ve told you how many times, how much I love that episode.

John Bytheway: 03:24 Say the title of that again.

Hank Smith: 03:26 The Theology of King James Language.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 03:29 In the Book of Mormon. Probably the rest. I was just going to say, I’m really glad that’s helpful. That’s why we do what we do. My research, I hope, helps people make that connection between the Book of Mormon Language and the Bible and do a better deeper job of it.

Hank Smith: 03:42 There were so many aha moments for me when I was listening to that. I think I was cleaning the garage or something and I was like, “Wow, wow.” People just thought I loved cleaning the garage. I think my neighbors. He must be finding some treasures in there.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 03:59 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 04:00 Jan this week, this is our one lesson in the Book of Ezekiel. We’re not going to be able to cover every chapter, but let’s start out by asking you, what would you want our listeners to know before they go in? Going into this book.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 04:12 Well, I mean Ezekiel comes in a time of a lot of turmoil in Jerusalem. And so I think that’s what I would want people to know is that you get more out of his book when you understand what’s going on behind the scenes and that he’s addressing what’s happening. And there’s about a 25 year period for Jerusalem that’s pretty horrible. And you have people attacking you and you have all these sieges and you have all these questions about is Jerusalem really going to be destroyed? And what’s God doing here? And how come he’s not helping us? And what about other wicked nations around us?

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 04:47 Ezekiel really speaks to a troubled time. And so for us to understand the troubled time behind there is really helpful in pulling apart some of the interesting things he has to say. Some of those interesting images that he uses. He’s a very visual prophet and as you read the chapters, you see that he does a lot of interesting visual aids and he’s teaching with these kind of, to us maybe even strange visual aids. But once you understand what’s going on in the background and what the Lord is speaking to him about, then it makes Ezekiel so much richer. So I just want them to know the background.

Hank Smith: 05:29 Okay. We’re looking about the same time that Lehi is leaving Jerusalem. Is it Ezekiel comes on the scene just after, do you think? Or about the same time?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 05:37 Yeah, so Lehi leaves Jerusalem from about 600 BC and Ezekiel is caught up in stuff between about 601, 605, 597. And so he’s just a contemporary of Lehi. He’s right in the middle of the things that Lehi leaves. Lehi leaves Jerusalem, so he misses a lot of what follows but Ezekiel doesn’t miss it. And he’s dragged away from Jerusalem as a captive and he’s living what Lehi knew was coming but departed and didn’t have to be a part of. And so it’s quite fun to see the different experiences that prophets are having there.

Hank Smith: 06:16 Yeah, because we’re used to going with the family out into the wilderness this time we watch them leave and we stay here. We stay in Jerusalem.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 06:23 Yeah. And then we go with Ezekiel as someone who’s taken captive and dragged away. And so Lehi leaves on his own free will. He’s commanded by God to go and so we watch him go into the wilderness, but he at least has some say in that. Ezekiel, on the other hand, is taken captive and dragged out of Jerusalem to an unfamiliar location and is then asked to help those people settle there and establish themselves. And then he’s the prophet who’s going to help answer their questions about why are we here? What are we doing here? And then what’s happening back at home? Of course they’d be interested in what’s going on back at home. So he’s kind of that link.

Hank Smith: 07:04 Awesome. That makes perfect sense. It’s nice to see where the Book of Mormon fits in right there. So Jan, how do you want to go about this? How do you want to jump into this book?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 07:12 Well, how about we just do a little bit of an overview of Ezekiel’s purposes. I think sometimes when we understand the purpose of a book of scripture from the beginning, then we can jump in and see a little bit more. And so in my experience with Ezekiel, when you have a group of exiles that have been violently taken captive, dragged away against their will, they’re living in a strange country. Trying to figure out, should I establish myself here or not? Are we just going to go back soon? What’s going on in Jerusalem? And so Ezekiel gets to answer some pretty important questions. And so one of those is, is Jerusalem going to be destroyed? Because these people have come out of an environment where there are false prophets who’ve said Jerusalem is not going to be destroyed. So you actually have Jeremiah who’s there in Jerusalem, Lehi, who had been there. All saying it was going to be, and yet you have a contingency of others who are saying it’s not.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 08:11 So you have people maybe just being a little confused. Who do I follow here? And then you get taken captive and dragged away. And so is this meaning that Jerusalem’s going to be destroyed or is this temporary? And so that’s an important question and Ezekiel answers it definitively with a yes, over and over and over. You read the whole Book of Ezekiel. That’s pretty much the common theme of yes. But then you have the next follow up question of, well why aren’t we the covenant people? Why are we being destroyed? And so he answers that as well over and over and over. As you read through the chapters, they give really great detail. The Lord is not holding back. He explains in very clear language what’s the problem and why you’re being destroyed. And then of course the next question would be, well, if we are wicked, everyone around us is. So why aren’t they being destroyed?

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 09:09 And so another big theme that you see in the Book of Ezekiel as some of those chapters that Come Follow Me skips is chapters addressed to particular other nations and what’s going to happen to them. And so the people of Israel have that question answered, well this doesn’t seem very fair. What’s happening to everyone else who’s wicked? And the Lord teaches very clearly that wickedness is never swept under the rug for anybody. Everybody eventually is going to get the consequences. And so now that you’ve got this idea of destruction for you and everyone around you, then of course another good question is, well, weren’t we the covenant people? And what happens to covenants in times of destruction? What does that mean? And Ezekiel addresses that as well.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 10:02 The covenant is eternal. The covenant is going to last but we have to have a repentance and we have to have a repentant people to help us here. And so when you go back and put Lehi into this context, well that’s what Lehi represents is a family that did keep their covenants that’s trying to do the right thing and they’re led away and you watch what happens to them answering their questions about how do we function as a covenant people in a new land? It’s really cool the overview of what these people are probably occupied with and how the Lord is addressing those things.

Hank Smith: 10:36 Fantastic.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 10:37 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 10:38 That was a great overview. I love that.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 10:42 So I think Ezekiel is fantastic, but you do have to understand what’s going on there so you don’t come away going, these are weird. This is a weird chapter. What’s happening?

Hank Smith: 10:51 Is it apocalyptic in nature? John, I’ve heard you talk about that. Type of scripture that is apocalyptic.

John Bytheway: 10:58 Like a genre that’s apocalyptic?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 11:00 I think there’s an element of maybe some apocalyptic just because apocalyptic in Greek means to unveil or reveal. And so certainly the Lord is unveiling and revealing a certain amount of information. But I wouldn’t compare, say Ezekiel’s visions to Nephi’s ones in the first part of Nephi, where he sees this tremendous amount of history and he goes from his day all the way to our day. Ezekiel’s not always seeing as much of that, but when you get to his temple chapters and things, I would say there’s some unveiling and revealing there for the future for this temple that they’re going to have. So I’d give him a little bit, but maybe not as much as some of the other prophets that cover a lot more ground in their visions.

Hank Smith: 11:47 That was perfect, Jan. What do you want to do next?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 11:50 Okay, well do you guys have any favorite chapters that you like? Any themes that you feel like we should talk about that stand out?

John Bytheway: 11:58 I actually like something in 18.

Hank Smith: 12:01 Well Jan, why don’t we go back to Ezekiel chapter one and just work our way through it, knowing full well we cannot cover every chapter and verse. Just maybe let you pick out some highlights for us.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 12:12 Okay. One of the nice things about chapter one, and we do get this frequently in the scriptures where you get to see a prophetic call. So we have Lehi’s prophetic call in the Book of Mormon, we have Moses’s, we have Isaiah’s, we have all sorts of people that we can look at when they have this revelatory experience. It’s really fun to compare the experiences. And so that’s what chapter one is, is Ezekiel’s call to be a prophet. You learn a little bit about him that he was a priest back in Jerusalem. We assume that he was serving in the temple, we don’t know that, but his later chapters indicate with the knowledge that he’s got of the temple, that he probably was a temple priest. But we can speculate about that a little, but it seems likely. So you get his background and then you just watch him just thrown into this vision that I believe is very difficult for him to articulate.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 13:07 And so the King James version of this is difficult. And so sometimes when readers come to a chapter like this, it’s always helpful to find another translation and open it up a little and kind of compare. Because for example in verse four it says, “I looked and beheld a whirlwind.” A modern translation might call that a windstorm or something a little more relatable to us. And then when you see him in a great cloud and a fire unfolding itself, well that could probably be translated a little better as lightning. So it’s helpful for something like this to maybe use an additional translation. King James can be a little awkward through here.

Hank Smith: 13:48 That does help. Well I send my students off into Bible Hub. I know some of other professors use the Blue Letter Bible where you can kind of look and see all the different translations.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 13:58 Yes. And so he just kind of gets these really fantastic images of these creatures. We kind of can relate to the ones in the Book of Revelation that come there. He’s just, in my opinion, just seeing some really glorified things that are very hard to put into words. And I think he’s trying his best to articulate spiritual experiences with modern language that just doesn’t do it justice.

Hank Smith: 14:23 Yeah. And then gets translated out of his language into English.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 14:26 So yes, into English and King James English can be challenging as we know and so it requires us to work a little with it. But my favorite part of the vision is you work your way through all of the fantastic creatures and all the wings we learn from D&C Section 77, that we have wings tends to represent the power to move and to act and to do things. And so modern revelation can really help us with some of these images and help us realize that it’s symbolic, that we’re just learning some principles of the way that the Lord works. And not necessarily need to take it all literally in that sense.

Hank Smith: 15:02 Got it.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:02 I don’t know what you guys make of chapter one.

Hank Smith: 15:04 It does seem kind of crazy.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:09 Yeah, we got wheels, we’ve got all sorts.

John Bytheway: 15:12 Four faces.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:14 One of the things that stands out to me is there seems to be quite a lot of unity going on with these creatures and how they work together. And even if we don’t always know the purpose of everything that Ezekiel sees, I think the concept of unity and organization that the Lord works with those things is evident.

Hank Smith: 15:33 And it seems that Ezekiel’s kind of awestruck by a lot of this. He’s trying to find words for the celestial.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:41 Yeah. And when you jump over and just look at verse 28 and the King James has the appearance of the bow. We would probably say rainbow to help us out a little with that. You just watch him trying to describe this was the appearance of the likeness, of the glory of the Lord. With his BC vocabulary, how do you even articulate. Like when you read Joseph Smith’s vision, he felt like the very trees were going to light on fire because it was so glorified. I’m sure that’s an inadequate way to even describe what Joseph saw, but he is doing the best he can. And so you’re using rainbows and you’re finding the brightest, most colorful, amazing things you can find. And you’re trying to say this was the appearance and the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face.

Hank Smith: 16:31 Whatever he saw, it was amazing.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 16:34 Yeah, he’s humbled and he’s recognizing that God is greater and grander than himself and this is a time for humbly learning and I like that.

Hank Smith: 16:44 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 16:46 He could have just said what some prophets have, it was just beyond description and the chapter would’ve been a lot shorter, right?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 16:52 Yes, it would’ve. And probably easier for us. I think there’s a few things to take away from that when God does have these revelatory experiences with prophets, there’s lots of glory involved. There’s lots of things that are hard to articulate and that the feeling and the awe is really evident and that sometimes you cannot express it with words. And we need to remember that. Spiritual experiences, you can’t always share adequately.

Hank Smith: 17:20 Yeah, you can’t. There’s just not words.

John Bytheway: 17:23 You know what I like about that is the first Corinthians 2:9 is it, “Eye hath not seen nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man the things that God has prepared for them that love him.” It’s like I’m not going to describe it, I’m just going to tell you, “You can’t imagine it.” It’s better than anything you can imagine. But here’s Ezekiel saying, I’ll try to describe it.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 17:41 And he does and some prophets do, like one of my favorite chapters is Isaiah. When he gets his call and he’s given us all those really brilliant descriptions of the temple and the seraphim and the glory of the Lord and things. And he tries to do it too. And you just get that sense that this is the best I can do but it doesn’t do it justice.

Hank Smith: 18:00 3 Nephi 17:17, “No tongue can speak, neither can there be written by any man. Neither can the hearts have been conceive so great in marvelous things. We both saw and heard Jesus speak. No one can conceive of the joy which filled our souls at the time we heard him pray for us under the Father.” So I like what you said, he’s doing his best to describe what he saw.

John Bytheway: 18:24 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 18:24 We have these patterns of prophetic calls, we can go and match them all up. That’s actually a really fun study time, if people are looking for something interesting to study. Just go and pull out all of the different prophetic calls and scripture and go and look at them and compare them. And you see the Lord’s patterns, you see the way he works and you see the difficulty in expressing them and the effort that goes in of trying to tell them. Fun times, chapter one.

Hank Smith: 18:50 So he sees and he bows down and then he hears a voice. Is that right?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 18:54 Yes.

Hank Smith: 18:55 That chapter break is kind of hard because you think, oh, it’s a new story, but it’s not a new story.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 19:00 Yes. And as we know as scripture, they didn’t have chapter breaks like this. And a lot of these chapters were added, especially in 1600’s. When we’re translating Bibles, we do add a lot of verses and chapters and things for the first time. And so it’s unfortunate sometimes that they break it up like that. So we can just move the chapter heading out of the way and just let it keep going so we don’t lose the full flow.

Hank Smith: 19:23 I have a tendency to do a memory wipe at the chapter break.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 19:28 Yeah. And so then we start chapter two and we’re lost.

Hank Smith: 19:34 Yeah. If we don’t remember where we were.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 19:34 Yeah. And so he sees all this stuff and then he gets this voice and then suddenly this beautiful again illustration of the way the Lord talks, “Son of man stand upon thy feet. And I will speak unto thee,” and here we go.

Hank Smith: 19:49 This is awesome. This is stand up and listen.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 19:54 And then he gets his call. All the prophets get this call. I look at verse three of chapter two, “Son of man, I send thee to the children of Israel to a rebellious nation that hath rebelled against me. They and their fathers have transgressed against me even unto this very day.” So this question of, what’s happening with Jerusalem, why is this happening? And suddenly the Lord is very clear. This is a rebellious nation. I’m helping you learn what happens when we rebel.

Hank Smith: 20:23 That one’s not hard to understand.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 20:27 Uh, no.

John Bytheway: 20:27 The Lord’s pretty clear.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 20:28 So I also like the admonition in verse six to Ezekiel, “Be not afraid of the people you’re going to teach. Neither be afraid of their words.” Because he’s coming into an environment that they have other false prophets, they have other voices to listen to. And they’re going to push back against what Ezekiel’s saying and he needs to be prepared for that. And I love the visual again, “Though, briars and thorns be with thee and thou just dwell amongst scorpions. Be not afraid of their words, nor be dismayed at their looks.” This is going to be a hard assignment, Ezekiel. I’m going to put you amongst the people who are going to respond largely negatively to what you have to say. And I need you to be firm and courageous with that.

Hank Smith: 21:14 Wow. Scorpions. I would be afraid.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 21:17 Yeah. I’ll just briefly tell you. One evening at home and we to this day still have no idea how this scorpion got where he got. But I went out of our living room into the hallway to go to the kitchen and right in the middle of the hall is a scorpion.

Hank Smith: 21:32 Oh.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 21:32 Just in my hallway. And he’s got his little tail up and he can see me and he’s got his little things up and he goes into, this kind of-

Hank Smith: 21:40 He’s ready for battle.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 21:41 … Attack mode. And I’m kind of like, wow. Wow. But that’s a nice visual for when I share the word of God sometimes that’s people’s response. They get all ready for a battle and they’re going to sting me or attack me. And my husband and I are trying to decide how to get rid of this scorpion in a safe manner. Take him outside. And when you’ve had an experience with a scorpion, suddenly you’re like, Yeah, this is a good description. Like I’m 20 times bigger than the scorpion, but I’m like, wait. You don’t want to step over it. Don’t want to go around it. What are we going to do with this? But what a great visual for Ezekiel as you start this mission I’m going to give you, just be prepared for the pushback because you’re going to get it.

Hank Smith: 22:28 And thou dost dwell among scorpions. How’d you like that in your patriarchal blessing?

John Bytheway: 22:32 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:32 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 22:34 And look at that. I love that phrase. “Nor be dismayed at their looks.” I mean-

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:39 Yes.

John Bytheway: 22:39 How do you look upon somebody that is telling you what you don’t want to hear?

Hank Smith: 22:45 Oh.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:45 Yep.

John Bytheway: 22:47 I mean what would we call that? They’re giving you crusties or they’re glaring at you. They’re, ooh.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:52 And their words as well. Usually the looks and the words go together. There’s probably insults, there’s probably profanity. I think we know this, that we live in a world of a lot of contention and people reacting negatively to things. Poor Ezekiel. And so as we’re on that topic, if you jump over just the column to chapter three and you start looking at verse eight and nine. You see the Lord’s advice, “I’ve told you not to be afraid, but I’m also going to help you.” And so then again this imagery, “I’ve made thy face strong against their faces,” those looks. “And thy forehead strong against their foreheads.” And then my favorite, “And as adamant.” So in our tongue that would be diamonds. That’s the hardest structure of something. So “As adamant, harder than flint, I have made thy forehead. Fear them not neither be dismayed at their looks.” There it is again. “Though they be a rebellious house.”

Hank Smith: 23:51 He’s really gearing him up.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 23:54 This is a tough assignment, a really tough assignment. And I think the language shows that it is, and poor Ezekiel. Do you want to be him? I’m not sure we do. But prophets have to stand up to peer pressure because they get a lot of it. That’s what he’s getting is all this negative peer pressure from people that don’t like what he’s saying.

Hank Smith: 24:12 Yeah. So the Lord says, I’m going to make you as tough as them. I’m going to make you as unyielding as they are. I like it.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:19 Yeah. And I need you to be because I think something that President Nelson said once when he came to BYU I think in 2017, and he gave that talk, The Love and Law of the Lord, I think. But he said, “It is not loving, not to tell the truth.”

Hank Smith: 24:38 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 24:38 Right.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:39 And that’s what prophets have to be able to do. They have to be able to firmly and lovingly stand against false ideas and not cave. And you saw President Nelson doing that then and you saw him do it recently with the most recent YSA devotional that he did, of it’s really important about the choices you’re making. And he’s firmly standing against all the pushback that he gets.

Hank Smith: 25:04 Yeah. But he would see it as unloving to back down.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 25:08 Yes.

John Bytheway: 25:09 Yeah. I love that you said that the most loving thing you can do is teach the truth.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 25:15 And not apologize and we need to teach it nicely and compassionately and things. But that firmness, that adamant harder than flint, that’s what we have to do.

Hank Smith: 25:26 I like that.

John Bytheway: 25:27 And I don’t know, I think that comes through the last YSA thing was awesome. Just yesterday I was asking my students, “Okay, what are those three identities again?” President Nelson asked you to remember. So they remember the talk, I’m a child of God, I’m a child of the covenant. I’m a disciple of Christ. And didn’t you feel that he was loving at the same time he was being adamant?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 25:50 Absolutely. Yeah. Just very firm, appropriately firm. And helping us reorient so that our eternal life that we’re choosing will be what we want it to be. And we have to be firm about that.

Hank Smith: 26:02 In verse 17, he tells him, “I have made you a watchman onto the house of Israel.” So this is your assignment, this is your job.

John Bytheway: 26:10 Let’s spend some more time on verse 17. Yeah. This is a common metaphor for a prophet, is a watchman on a tower. When I teach the war chapters in the Book of Mormon, I love to, so okay, they made the ditch, then they put a work of timbers on it and then they put a frame of pickets on it and then they put a tower on it. But then they put a watchman in the tower. And what can a watchman do that those down below on frame of picket maintenance cannot do? They can see afar off. They can give you warning. I love that verse. “I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel, therefore hear the word at my mouth and give them warning from me.” And I think, correct me if I’m wrong, that’s the first time we hear that metaphor. I read President Boyd K. Packer’s biography years ago and I think it was called A Watchman on the Tower. It’s a great metaphor for a prophet because they can see far off.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 27:07 And I love what follows. Like there’s so much logic in chapter three here as we start this conversation about watchmen. And he goes on in verse 18 to say, “When I say unto the wicked thou shalt surely die and thou givest him not warning nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way to save his life. The same wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood will I require at thine hand.”

Hank Smith: 27:33 Wow.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 27:34 So this is President Nelson and all the prophets we have today, they understand this. And so they recognize that if I don’t pass on the warning from the Lord and stand firm in what the Lord is saying, then you’re going to go and do what you’re going to do. But I’m partially accountable for those choices because I didn’t tell you. Then 19, “But if thou warn this wicked and he turned not from his wicked way, nor from his wicked way, but he shall die in his iniquity. But thou hast delivered thy soul.”

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 28:10 Can’t you just imagine Jacob, in the Book of Mormon does this, I stand up and shake my garments of your blood. I think King Benjamin has a similar approach to this as well. This is the thing about prophets and watchmen is, what good is a watchman if he doesn’t pass on the warning? And then everyone who dies in the conflict that follows the lack of warning is now partially there because of his failure to do his job. So just really, really great logic. Really simple of why we’re so grateful for prophets and their courage to stand up to the peer pressure to change things.

Hank Smith: 28:48 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 28:48 And trust that they have a different view than we do. They have a different assignment. They are up there on that tower and they can see things. And we’ve talked about this on the podcast before Hank, long time ago. Prophets talking about the family and then the proclamation coming out and most of us going, huh.

Hank Smith: 29:07 It was 1995. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 29:09 Or well yeah, that’s nice. And now going, whoa, we really are seeing everything. They saw it coming a long time ago.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 29:17 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 29:18 I think so too, John.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 29:20 Yeah. And I love when you jump over to verse 21, it starts talking about righteous people now listening to the warnings and things and the accountability there. But look what he says. “Nevertheless, if thou warn the righteous man that the righteous sin not and he doeth not sin, he shall surely live,” which is what we want. Because he is warned. And then also thou hast delivered thy soul. So prophets have responsibility for their own souls, but they have responsibility for the souls of the children of men. And they need to deliver those warnings. And as they do, people are saved by that.

Hank Smith: 29:52 Maybe a young person might be thinking to themselves, why don’t the prophets back off on this a little bit? They’re getting a lot of pushback. Why don’t they back off? And these chapters help you see there’s an expectation they know is from the Lord that they be adamant about certain things.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 30:06 Mm-hmm.

John Bytheway: 30:07 That is so interesting, that adamant is the word that we use. But you say it was a diamond. And the footnote says that too.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 30:14 Yes it does.

John Bytheway: 30:15 To be, I was adamant about that. I was hard as a diamond on that. That’s interesting.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 30:22 And 16th century language, they didn’t really use the word, diamond. They used the word adamant back then. And we’ve changed that. We have diamond is more common. So when we read adamant, we tend to read it in a modern setting. But this is a reference to that diamond material. And so that just really helps you appreciate what prophets have to do. You have to be firm and hard about the truth and then just keep giving those warnings and then let people choose.

John Bytheway: 30:49 I really like those verses put side by side. “If you warn the wicked and he turn not,” in verse 19, “Shall die in his iniquity. But thou hast delivered thy soul.” Because you did what you were asked to do. Verse 21, “If the righteous hear, he shall live and you still have delivered thy soul.” Because you told, you did what you were asked to do. Come what may type of a thing.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 31:11 And I don’t know about you guys, but any time you’ve gone and done the right thing in any capacity where you have stewardship, you always feel that confirming recognition that you did your bit. And whatever people choose to do after that is no longer up to you because you’ve taught them or whatever. But there’s a really nice feeling of I did that and I am not accountable for them now. And there’s something powerful in that.

John Bytheway: 31:37 It reminds me of Moroni chapter 10. “And then the Lord will say, Did I not declare unto you my words which were written by this man?” And there’s yeah, I told you.

Hank Smith: 31:47 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 31:49 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 31:50 There’s that question, “You heard this, didn’t you? What did you do with it? I did declare my words unto you,” which were written by this man and it’s clearly talking to those who have had a chance to read the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 32:00 Yeah. Well and one thing I just wanted to have us go back one page and just have a look at verse 11 really quick. Just to remind us who our audience is because we sometimes forget our audience as we’re going along. But he says, “And go get thee to them of the captivity.” So we’ve taken several thousand Jewish people out of Jerusalem and we’ve transplanted them over in Babylon. And what this tells me is that the Lord is concerned about everybody and will send messengers to everybody, even small captive populations in the middle of nowhere. You just have to really appreciate how interested God is in people. And one of my favorite things to do when I introduce the Book of Mormon when you’re looking at Lehi, is to show the number of prophets who are contemporary with Lehi and where they’re preaching.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 32:50 And so you bring up Ezekiel, you bring up Daniel, bring up Jeremiah, you can bring up Zephaniah and some of the other smaller prophets that were around there somewhere. And suddenly the students go, “Oh my goodness, in the mouth of two or three witnesses,” like, there’s more than two or three? And they’re spread out. And the Lord is working with people wherever he can work with them. And so another message is prophets are available to people and the Lord is interested in them everywhere.

Hank Smith: 33:21 I like that, Jen. It’s not that you’ve got carried away, so now I’m done with you. It’s you’re carried away and I’m still going to try to teach you even in your captivity.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 33:30 Yes. So you’ve got Daniel in the court at Babylon, you have Ezekiel out on the banks with the captives out on the suburban area and then you’ve got everyone back in Jerusalem with some Jeremiah and some people there. And then you have Lehi taking a family through somewhere else. And you just see all of these prophets at different places, but they’re sharing the same message and they’re doing the watchman on the tower for their group of people.

John Bytheway: 33:53 That’s awesome. Love it.

Hank Smith: 33:55 Now the Come Follow Me manual has this jump quite a bit.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 33:57 Let’s look and see. Now I know John, you wanted to do 18, which I think is a fabulous chapter. But if there’s ones in between that you want to have a look at.

John Bytheway: 34:06 Could you give us your summary of what happens?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 34:09 Okay, so we’ve had some fun looking at the call and the watchmen on the tower, but let’s speed up a little bit and let’s jump through some of the rest of the chapters a little more quickly. Chapters 4, 5, 6, 7. You just get a lot of recitation of the destruction and the judgment that’s coming to the wicked. These aren’t happy chapters. In fact, on one of them I’ve written, this is a very sad chapter, lots of repetition about the people receiving recompense for the wickedness. And so there’s just this kind of, why are we going through this? And the Lord just keeps repeatedly telling them this is why, is because of your choices of not keeping the covenant, you’re not doing the things I’ve asked you to do. And so we hit that. By the time you hit chapter 10, I just want to point out it hearkens back to chapter one because they start using the same symbols in there.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 35:00 So there’s this nice little break. We’ve had all of the consequences and now we’re going to have another kind of little fantastic vision for just a second. And then he carries on with more prophecy. He talks specifically about what’s going to happen to people in Jerusalem, Zedekiah, those kinds of things. And then we’re ready to hit our teen chapters and carry on with a few more analogies. And this is where you start getting the visual aids that he uses.

Hank Smith: 35:30 Okay.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 35:30 To teach. And so we’ve got eagles, we’ve got vines, we’ve got all sorts of lovely analogies going on.

Hank Smith: 35:39 Yeah, I see that Chapter 15, Jerusalem as a useless vine. Shall be burned-

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 35:43 Yes. I mean it doesn’t get any bolder than that. A useless vine. I mean this is an agrarian society and they know about useless plants. So we don’t want those, aren’t helpful.

John Bytheway: 35:56 We talked to Terry Ball about Isaiah’s parable of the vineyard type of a thing that he does. And it says it brought forth wild grapes. But Terry Ball gave us the Hebrew wrote was beushim, which means worthless, stinking things.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 36:11 Worthless.

Hank Smith: 36:15 In these chapters, Jan, a young person might get the idea of man God is really mean. But I think what he’s trying to say is, look, this is the natural consequence of not keeping the covenant. This is what happens when you don’t keep the covenant.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 36:29 Yeah. And I think we learn here that God works with natural consequences the majority of the time. He doesn’t need to come and punish people because he just lets the law work. He just lets the consequences come and they inevitably do because they’re eternal laws and they just work. And so yeah, it’s hard to have people thinking negatively of God here when this is just about people’s choices. And they’ve been warned and they kept choosing and you reap what you sow. And that’s what’s happening.

Hank Smith: 37:02 How many wrong way signs can you put up and someone’s just flying by them. It’s not the sign’s fault that you kept going that there’s an accident coming up.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 37:10 Yeah. One thing that’s kind of fun when you hit chapter 17, this one’s an odd chapter, it’s got this weird parable about these eagles. But when you actually know the political context behind them, you actually see the Lord commentating on Zedekiah’s decision to use Egypt as his ally against Babylon. And he’s turning traitor to Babylon. And so it’s just funny to see with the prophets, they will comment on current events and make comments. And this is a real current event, chapter 17, with the changing of Zedekiah and his loyalties. But that ends up leading to the final destruction of Jerusalem is because he made that choice. But the Lord even comments on that, on just a political thing and helping the people in exile understand what’s going on back home and why those things are going on when you don’t have satellites and you don’t have news. And you don’t have a way to get online and see what’s going on. It’s really just fun to watch the Lord speaking to the current events and chapter seventeen’s a big one there.

John Bytheway: 38:14 And I think when I try to teach Isaiah, because Isaiah as an advisor to Kings, it seems his main theme was don’t ally yourselves with other nations. Let God be your ally. Let God be your king. But they always seem to not listen to his advice. And we’ll maybe we’ll ally with Assyria, maybe we’ll ally with Egypt, maybe we’ll… And we see that thing happening here I guess.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:39 Over and over again. Yes. And you see that.

John Bytheway: 38:41 I think God is a good ally. Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:44 I do too. Yeah. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 38:45 That’s probably better than Egypt.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:50 I think contextually as well. Because just a hundred years earlier, the northern kingdom of Israel had been destroyed and the border of Assyria when they come and take over the northern kingdom is only five miles from Jerusalem. And so these people have seen what you just said, John, about allying with the Lord. That’s why they weren’t destroyed the southern kingdom because Hezekiah allied with the Lord if you remember. And then this miraculous thing happens with the Assyrian army waking up and they’re all, well they don’t really wake up but they’re all dead.

John Bytheway: 39:18 Wake up dead. It’s what it sounds like. It’s when they got woke, what does it say when they rose in the morning, behold they were all dead corpses.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 39:25 It’s like such a funny way they word it. But that was a big message that you need to ally yourself with God and that’s what protects them. But here we are again just a hundred years later teaching the same lesson, that you still didn’t get it. You had a big miracle in those generations back there. And now we are here and we shouldn’t be worrying about these worldly allies. We need to make the Lord our ally. And they haven’t.

John Bytheway: 39:51 First of all, I love 18 because of this strange little phrase in Ezekiel 18 verse two. Well verse one, “The word of the Lord came unto me again saying what mean ye that you use this proverb concerning the land of Israel saying the fathers have eaten sour grapes and the children’s teeth are set on edge.” And this idea of can something that my parents eat affect me? Is that what he’s saying there?

Hank Smith: 40:22 I think so.

John Bytheway: 40:23 Do my parents’ decisions, can they have an effect on future generations? I ate sour grapes and my children’s teeth are set on edge.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 40:33 And I would say yes because that’s essentially what you see in the Book of Mormon with Laman and Lemuel’s choices about the covenant and not following the prophet and everything that happens to the kids is a direct result of their choices. Now obviously the Lord is merciful to us under those circumstances because he understands that it’s not fully up to us. But yes, that principle of what I do affects other people, particularly my children. And I need to be wise about the decisions I make because they reap the rewards of those or the consequences of those.

John Bytheway: 41:07 And the thought gets rounded out later on in the chapter in verse 20, “The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. Neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.” So there’s kind of an… “But if the wicked will turn from all his sins,” and I love that turn and repent are such good synonyms. “That he hath committed and keep all my statutes and do that which is lawful and right. He shall surely live and he shall not die.” Now this verse was tremendously helpful to me with something I struggled with. “All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him in his righteousness that he hath done shall he live.”

 John Bytheway: 41:50 And the reason that was really helpful to me is because, and maybe you guys understood this all along and everybody else in the church, but when the Doctrine and Covenants and other places say, “I shall remember them no more,” I always thought, how can God forget something that we still remember? Can God forget anything? And I decided it must be poetic when God says, “I will remember them no more.” And this is the text that helped me. Oh maybe it’s the idea they will not be remembered at the judgment. And Ezekiel helped me with that language.

Hank Smith: 42:26 It will not be mentioned.

John Bytheway: 42:27 They will not be mentioned unto him. God is not going to not know things that we know. That’s what used to bother me as a kid. But here it says no, it will not be mentioned. I thought, oh that’s it. It won’t be brought up at the judgment. It will not be remembered at the judgment is the way I made sense of that.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 42:47 Well and I agree with you because I think one of the things that’s important to help students is recognize that our past makes us who we are in the present. So we can’t divorce ourselves from our past, but we need to learn to remember our past with peace and not keep bringing up the past. That’s what the atonement can help us do, is feel forgiven of our past but remember it appropriately and then we don’t have to keep bringing it up and beating ourselves with it every time something happens in the present or the future. And I think all of you would agree that when we’re in relationships or family relationships, but especially a spousal relationship, we don’t always want our spouse bringing up everything that happened in the past when we’ve apologized and when we’ve made it right.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 43:32 But sometimes that happens in some people’s marriages. They can never let what you apologize for or get past it. And so you’re constantly being held hostage by a mistake that you’ve more than made right. And more than moved on from. And you can understand how frustrating that is. And we’re being promised that the Lord is not that type of partner.

John Bytheway: 43:54 Wow.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 43:54 He doesn’t keep bringing up the past and holding it against us. He won’t bring it up anymore because we made it right and it doesn’t need to be brought up anymore. And how comforting is that? I just…

John Bytheway: 44:08 I love that. And I love that phrase, “Remember our past with peace.” So in Alma 36 when we’ve got Alma telling his son, Helaman, all about his own repentance, I mean Alma 36, that great chiasmus chapter, but I put on my test with my students, It doesn’t say I could remember my sins no more. But he says, I could remember my pains no more. And you’ve just given me a phrase to use. I could remember my past with peace. I remembered what I did. I’m telling you about it. But it didn’t hurt anymore. I was harrowed up by the memory of it no more. And what a great phrase. Thank you for that. I can remember my past with peace. That’s beautiful.

Hank Smith: 44:51 Let me read to you both something that Elder Holland said. This is January of 2009. The talk is called Remember Lot’s Wife. Very similar to what you’re saying here, Jan of the way you look back like Lot’s wife. Elder Holland says, “Let people repent, Let people grow. Believe that people can change and improve. Is that faith? Yes. Is that hope? Yes. Is that charity? Yes. Above all it is charity. The pure love of Christ. If something is buried in the past, leave it buried. Don’t keep going back with your little sand pail and beach shovel to dig it up, wave it around and then throw it at someone saying, ‘Hey, do you remember this?’ Splat. Well guess what? That is probably going to result in some ugly morsel being dug up out of your landfill with the reply, ‘Yeah, I remember it. Do you remember this?’ Splat.

 Hank Smith: 45:38 And soon enough everyone comes out of the exchange dirty and muddy, unhappy and hurt. When what God, our father in Heaven pleads for is cleanliness and kindness and happiness and healing. Such dwelling on past lives, including past mistakes is just not right. It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.” That fits right in with that verse. Learn to think of your past with peace. Man Jan, that’s going to be a highlight for me from Ezekiel 18.

John Bytheway: 46:06 Oh man, I’m putting that in my Alma 36 lesson plan because Alma could do that. He still remembered what he’d been through. So he’s remembering his past. But it’s not, I always harrowed up no more by the memory of my sins. It’s so fun in that chapter, sorry to keep going but at first he’s like, “I wish I were extinct. I wish I could be destroyed. Both soul and body.” And then the opposite, “I my soul, that long to be there with God.” Being with God felt comfortable instead of, I would like the rocks and mountains to fall on me.

Hank Smith: 46:44 It’s quite a change.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 46:46 One of the best things for us is to be able to talk about our past with people in this way and not have it bring back all that pain and be able to say, “Well these are the things I learned from it, but I can talk about it without feeling any guilt or shame.”

Hank Smith: 47:01 The shame. Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 47:03 And I can just really use it to teach on appropriate occasions when I need to share things like that. But I think we can all relate to the relief that comes when people around us don’t remember our past with the animosity and they can just let us move on.

Hank Smith: 47:21 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 47:22 I really appreciate that.

John Bytheway: 47:24 Let people repent, let people change. As Hank said that Elder Holland said. But then I love verse 23. We sometimes maybe get this impression of an Old Testament God that is just really enjoying punishing people and sending plagues. And this verse 23, “Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die, saith the Lord God and not that he should return from his ways and live.” And then verse 32, “I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth say the Lord God. Wherefore turn yourselves and live ye.” And I’m looking in my dad’s verses. So I just got a note from the spirit world from my dad here. Not really, but I’m thinking of him. Because he’s got see second Nephi 26, 24 through 28 and four times in a row the Lord’s like, Has he said to any depart from me? Has he said to any depart from the synagogue? Has he said to any do not partake of my salvation? I’m paraphrasing, but I remember that chapter that, look, he’s constantly inviting. Just come. That’s a good footnote, dad. Thank you.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 48:28 Yeah, that’s so great. Part of our need when we’re studying the Old Testament is to understand the culture and the context, but not miss these really precious glimpses of the character of God. Because sometimes we read about all these destructions and things and then come away with the wrong idea. But God is not enjoying this. He doesn’t want these consequences, which is why he sent a prophet, which is why he sent the warnings, which is why he works so hard to make sure our prophets are adamant about the warnings that they give. Because he doesn’t want any of this to happen to us. But sometimes we have to learn the hard way.

John Bytheway: 49:08 Maybe this is the wrong metaphor to use right now, but he’s not like a university professor. But the idea of he’s not saying, “How many can I flunk in this class? I’m going to make this class so hard. Only a few of you are going to make it and I’m going to enjoy that.” Present company excepted of course. But do you know what I mean? That idea of I’m going to weed out everybody here and here’s the Lord saying, “I would like to invite all of you to come and partake.” That’s the second Nephi 26 thing.

Hank Smith: 49:40 Yeah. That seems to be the invitation in verse 31. Ezekiel 18:31, “Let me make you a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O House of Israel?” When this is available to you? I can give you this new life. That reminds me of Paul, the newness of life.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 49:57 And I think I was just thinking of Jacob as well. Doesn’t he have that same question? Why will you die?

John Bytheway: 50:01 Why will you die?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 50:04 Yeah. When he’s addressing his people about their iniquities, just that really plain question, why are you doing this? I don’t want this.

John Bytheway: 50:14 The Book of Mormon makes it such a no brainer. Let’s see. Should I choose captivity and death or happiness and eternal life? Ooh, I don’t know. Give me a minute. That’s a hard one. I got to think about that for a minute.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 50:26 If you will hear his voice harden on your hearts for why will ye die? And how cool is that? Because Ezekiel’s a priest, Jacob’s a priest. I mean you just can get that connection because the animal sacrifices they do, they understand death quite well. And why are we choosing to do that when we could choose something else?

John Bytheway: 50:44 That was Jacob 6:6?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 50:45 Yeah. Jacob 6:6. That same question.

John Bytheway: 50:48 Awesome. Well see. It was good to look at chapter 18.

Hank Smith: 50:52 Yeah, I’m glad we stopped there.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 50:54 Okay, so where do you guys want to go now?

John Bytheway: 50:56 Oh, look at that. Verse 16 that uses the same phrase. “None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him,” in 33:16. 

John Bytheway: 51:08 Please join us for part two of this podcast.