John Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to part two of Dr. Jan Martin, The Book of Ezekiel.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 00:07 Okay, so we’ve had some fun in chapter 18 and we’ve had this theme of the Lord being sad when people sin, when they reap the consequences of those sins. He doesn’t take pleasure in sin. What’s interesting is as you carry on with chapters 19 through about 32, you start seeing the Lord talking about the other nations that are around Jerusalem. That question that we talked about at the beginning, well, if these other nations are wicked, why are they not having consequences? The Lord starts talking about Judah, of course, He starts with them again. But then He starts talking about Tyre, and He starts talking about Egypt, and some of the other nations around, and what’s going to happen to them, that they’re all going to reap consequences for their wickedness in the future.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin 00:55 But the interesting thing is, is that the Lord is not happy about any of this. And so I just love that we carry on that understanding that God doesn’t want this for His kids and His children no matter what nation they belong to. And then we get this incredible lamentation for Egypt in chapter 32, which you can see of, “I just don’t want this. This isn’t what I want for the human family.” And then we hit chapter 33, which is such a fabulous chapter. So we can just go right over there and jump in to that one.

Hank Smith: 01:26 That long bridge reminds me of Enoch. Why are you weeping? Why does God weep?

John Bytheway: 01:33 It’s poetry, isn’t it, Hank? And shed forth their tears as rain upon the mountains. It’s like, wow. That’s-

Hank Smith: 01:39 Yeah. And in Moses 7, Enoch says to the Lord, “How is it that thou canst weep seeing that thou art holy from all eternity to all eternity?” And he goes on and says, “You’ve made all this. It’s amazing. Why do you weep?” In verse 32, the Lord said unto Enoch, “Behold these thy brethren; they are the workmanship of mine own hands, and I gave unto them their knowledge, in the day I created them; and in the Garden of Eden, gave I unto man his agency; and I gave them a commandment, that they should love one another, they should choose me their Father; but they are without affection, and they hate their own blood.” And then He goes on later, “Wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?” Is that the message, Jan, of those chapters?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 02:22 Yes. And I was just going to put one in 32:18 just to go along with what you said. Look what He tells Ezekiel, “Son of man wail for the multitude of Egypt.” There’s that theme of sorrowing and lamenting and crying over people’s choices and what’s happened. There is no pleasure for the Lord in this. This isn’t what He wants for His people.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 02:44 Well, what’s fun about it is we just did that great stuff on the watchman in the tower back and now we hit 33. And if you look at your chapter heading, that’s the very first word that appears. But the verse that starts it is verse 6. And we go back to this. “If the watchman see the sword coming and blow not the trumpet, and the people be not warned, if the sword come …” Then suddenly you’re back to Ezekiel, the watchman on the tower. If you look at verse 7, “I have set thee a watchman unto the House of Israel. So hear my word and warn them from me.” So fun. We just had our little bridge of all the lamentations and worrying about it, but now we’re back to let’s try and prevent this. Let’s get the warnings going. And you’re still that person that I need you on the tower. But chapter 33 is fantastic. So I’m happy for you guys to jump in with any verses that you like, especially there’s just lots to like about chapter 33.

Hank Smith: 03:36 I like how He’s mentioning again to Ezekiel, “Don’t forget your role with all that you’ve seen. Do not forget your role.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 03:43 We could start with looking at verse 10 just because we’ve had this theme of what is repentance like? And He says, “Oh, thou son of man speak unto the House of Israel. Thus you speak saying, ‘If our transgressions and our sins be upon us and we pine away in them, how should we then live?'” So again, repentance is about coming to grips with the past about making the past something we can make right and be at peace with. But a lot of us do pine away in our sins for way too long, and carry them on, but we can’t live like that. And then you get this again, the same theme in verse 11 “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” I’ve provided you this atonement. I want you to use it. I want you to utilize it. Please just use it. Why will you die? There’s that question again right there at the end of verse 11.

Hank Smith: 04:34 So pine away is that like we’re rotting? Is that like it’s so heavy we’re rotting away?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 04:39 When you see people, I can relate to this a little more from maybe the dating perspective. When you like someone that doesn’t like you back, and you keep pining away for them, this unrequited love that you have. You just kind of hang about in your room, and you never come out and you’re sad, and you’re just pining away after something that you can’t solve or can’t have. And so that’s what comes to me is just an inability to move on beyond accepting the truth of the fact that this person is never going to requite back how you feel. So you kind of need to move on from there. But we struggle with that.

Hank Smith: 05:14 With our sins. Oh come on, our sins, it’s going to give me happiness, it’s going to give me happiness. My sins are going to give me happiness. And finally you got to let go of that fantasy. And the Lord’s going, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.

John Bytheway: 05:29 Never going to work though.

Hank Smith: 05:31 Keep going Jan. Keep walking us through this chapter.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 05:35 Okay, we’ve kind of had some of these themes previously. When you start looking in verse 12, He’s giving him a direction to keep telling the people about what righteousness does, how wickedness works. And so kind of these same themes. And it’s just funny to think about sometimes how hard it is for us to get this message. When I do good things, good consequences come. And when I don’t do good things, negative consequences come. And the Lord just kind of walks you through that again, and you just see the logic, the simplicity of choice, and accountability, and agency, and how we can function in that a little more healthily. But it’s just some commentary to me on why we struggle so much to get that. But we do.

Hank Smith: 06:16 It’s a simple lesson but it is a difficult one to learn.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 06:21 Yeah. But as we grow and develop, I think we get a little bit wiser, and maybe we can be making better choices and not always keep going around in these kind of cycles there.

John Bytheway: 06:31 I’m looking in verse 21 and thinking, look at the calendar they’re keeping. In the 12th year of our captivity, the 10th month, the fifth day. I mean we’re marking our time as exiles. One that had escaped out of Jerusalem came unto me saying, “The city is smitten.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 06:48 You have to imagine what this is like for Ezekiel though. Because remember he’s been told he’s going to have pushback. He’s had plenty of pushback. And now you have somebody coming from the destruction who’s telling them that it actually happened. And so just imagine that setting with the people who didn’t believe him, the people who did, and how Ezekiel might be feeling when the confirmation comes. And you see verse 22, “The hand of the Lord was upon me in the evening, Afore,” that means before, “he that was escaped came, and had opened my mouth until he came to me in the morning, and my mouth was opened and I was no more dumb.” So here we go. I’ve been communing with the Lord, the destruction happened, and now we have this person coming and confirming it. And then he gets to tell some more things from 23 on. But you just have to go, what a moment for Ezekiel to receive that confirmation that everything he had been saying was right in reality, and what that might have done to the group there.

Hank Smith: 07:47 Yeah, the shock of that news, Jerusalem actually fell. Is it Lehi in the Book of Mormon who says, “It’s been told to me too.”

John Bytheway: 07:56 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 07:57 Yeah. Second Nephi chapter 1 is where he says that, doesn’t it? Well he may say it earlier than that actually as well, but there’s certainly one in 2 Nephi 1.

Hank Smith: 08:05 Yeah, he got word of it too. Yeah. Let’s keep going.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 08:09 Okay, so one thing to point out in the final bits of chapter 33, jump down, look at verse 27. We now have a confirmation that the homeland has been destroyed and now we are living in captivity. And he says, “Say thou thus unto them, thus saith the Lord God, ‘As I live surely they that are in the wastes shall fall by the sword and him that is in the open field will I give to thee the beast to be devoured.'” And he goes on with this consequences that this kind of thing will keep happening as long as you’re wicked. So can we use what happened to Jerusalem? Can you learn from what happened over there? And let’s have you captives turn this around, and make sure that where you’re living and where you’re establishing yourself that you can start keeping your covenants and moving forward. And we really need to learn how to learn from other people.

Hank Smith: 09:04 Yeah. And that’s the one thing about consequences too, is they don’t stop when you’re like, “Hey, I’ve had enough.” They just keep coming.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 09:11 Yeah, this is tragic. Of course they’re going to be upset about the loss of Jerusalem, but we need to internalize that message and say, “Okay, if I don’t want this to happen to me, what can I do differently than that?” Now sadly, when you look down at verse 31, he’s talking, “They come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people and they hear thy words …” But look at the problem. “But they will not do them. For with their mouth they show much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.”

Hank Smith: 09:44 Oh man, that is an incriminating verse.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 09:49 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 09:50 I love verse 32. “And lo thou art unto them as a very lovely song of one that hath a pleasant voice and can play well on an instrument, for they hear thy words, but they do them not.”

Hank Smith: 10:01 Oh King Benjamin, “If you believe all these things, see that you do them.”

John Bytheway: 10:05 “See that you do them.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 10:06 “See that you do them.”

Hank Smith: 10:08 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 10:08 Yeah. So what a great commentary on, we all have good intentions, and we all have desires to do things, but part of what we are judged on isn’t just our desires, it’s our works. And there’s both of those factors there. And I’m really glad that we have all these professions of goodness and want to do these things, but the proof is in the behavior, and we need to just live and change. And as you’re changing and you’re acting them out, that’s really who you are.

Hank Smith: 10:37 “They hear thy words but they will not do them.” That’s a verse that hits you. Because I’ve done that. I’ve done that many times. Heard it and gone, “That is a good thing to do.” And then I never did it.

John Bytheway: 10:49 I never went out and did it.

Hank Smith: 10:50 Yeah, we just got through conference and how many of us heard all these great words and thought, “Those are good things to do,” and then went right back to what we were doing before? Yeah.

John Bytheway: 11:02 You know what I loved in one of our recent episodes, Hank, was that reminder that when President Monson gave that last talk and pled with everybody to read the Book of Mormon, who went out and did it? President Nelson.

Hank Smith: 11:16 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 11:17 There’s pictures of him out on his patio just with his books all out on the table there studying, and took that very seriously. He heard the words and he did them.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 11:26 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 11:27 Oh that can be an encouraging verse as well, not just, I don’t have to feel so much guilt. I can also say, “You know what? He’s right. I’m going to do it.” And then get started doing something. Oh man, I’m glad you pointed those verses out. That’s rough.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 11:41 They’re so beautiful. I mean there’s just beauty in the picture of this and the language of it. And then just the ending of chapter 33, “When this cometh to pass, lo, it will come. Then shall they know that a prophet hath been among them.” I mean you would think they’d already know that because of what happened to Jerusalem, and all of his words came about. But those kinds of evidences don’t generally bring about conversion, they’re just kind of a nice little thing. But it’s that doing and the applying that helps you really understand that there’s a prophet amongst you. Because he’s told you, you’ve tried it, you found out for yourself that this was true. And suddenly you have that strengthening confirmation that he is indeed a prophet. Not just because of the signs and things like what Ezekiel’s having happen here.

Hank Smith: 12:30 Yeah. I can’t think of a section that we’ve read so far today that fits our day than these 30 to 33. I mean they talk like, “Let’s all get together. It’ll be wonderful. I pray we’ll hear the Word of the Lord.” And they hear it but they don’t do it. Man, that is an incriminating verse. But it is, like I said before, it can be encouraging because there is time.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 12:56 Let’s get to work. Let’s be determined. And with general conference and things that they say, let’s pick one thing. What if we just picked one of those things, and tried it, and worked on it? Sometimes you leave conference with being a little bit overwhelmed by all the good things. But if we just picked one thing, it’s like in that previous general conference we had about the percentage of just changing the small things, the aggregate percentages that we can have. If we just picked one thing to do differently, what would happen over time to us? We’d slowly aggregate improvement.

John Bytheway: 13:28 Yeah. What was that? The aggregate of marginal gains or something?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 13:31 There we go. I couldn’t think of the rest of it. I’m like, “Come on. What’s the phrase?”

John Bytheway: 13:35 The bicyclist that did tiny little things. Elder Dunn I think.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 13:39 Yeah, Elder Dunn. So we have a fun chapter that follows 33. 34 is a fascinating one because if you look at verse 2, we’re now going to have the Lord talking specifically to the shepherds of Israel, not just to people in general. But this is the leadership, the people who should have protected the flock. And so you can just wander down through 3, 4, 5, and you just see they’ve not done what shepherds do. They’ve not helped. They weren’t acting like Ezekiel being the watchman and helping in the way that they should have.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 14:14 Then you jump over to verse 7, and again, “Therefore you shepherds hear the Word of the Lord.” You get it again in 9. “Hear the Word of the Lord.” Verse 10, “Behold I’m against the shepherds.” Well why? And you learn, “I’m going to require my flock at their hand and cause them to cease feeding the flock.” Why? Because they didn’t do it. But the good news is for us, the end of verse 10, “I will deliver my flock from their mouth.” So the Lord is very interested in making sure we have good leaders, and He’s capable of making sure that that happens. But what a commentary on anyone who has leadership responsibilities.

John Bytheway: 14:55 Yeah, I want to make sure I understand. So He’s speaking to shepherds of Israel. They are political leaders? They are religious leaders? They are both?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:03 Yes. I’d say all of the above. The downfall of Jerusalem didn’t just happen because of one of those aspects. It happened because of all of that. We have religious leaders who aren’t doing things, the political leaders who aren’t doing things. And even parents can be in this group of shepherds over their children. The people just aren’t leading the way that they need to lead. And anyone who has responsibility over others, I say, could fall into this category here.

Hank Smith: 15:30 Yeah. He says, “You eat the fat, you clothe with the wool.” So you’re taking all the perks of your leadership, but you’re not helping the diseased, you’re not strengthening any of them that are sick.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:42 You kill them that are fed. I mean that’s pretty bold. And so you’ve not healed, you’re not taking care of the sick ones.

Hank Smith: 15:49 You’re not going after the wandering ones.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 15:52 No. You’ve just been so focused on your own self, that you’ve lost sight of what the purpose of leadership is. And it’s not about you, it’s about them.

Hank Smith: 15:57 Yeah. You do that in exact contrast to John 10 where the Savior says, “I know my sheep, I love my sheep. I lay down my life for my sheep.” Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 16:09 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 16:09 Right? But not … The hireling runs away, but I’m the good shepherd.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 16:14 Yeah. So to start the fun bit, just start looking at verse 11, and look at what the Lord says about Himself. “For thus saith the Lord God, ‘Behold, I, even I will both search out my sheep and seek them out.'” And then you get these beautiful verses of all the things He is going to do. 13, “I’ll bring them out from the people, and gather them out from the countries, and I’ll bring them to their own land and I’ll feed them.” And then 14, “I’ll feed them in good pasture.” And in 15, “I’ll feed my flock and cause them …” I mean, wow, what a contrast to what we’ve seen the previous shepherds doing. And now He’s going to take it over and bring things around, and teach us what a good shepherd really does. So that’s really fun.

Hank Smith: 16:59 That is, “I will feed them in the good pasture on the high mountains.” I’m circling all the “I’s” here. “I will feed my flock.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 17:06 And it just makes me think of verses where He says, “I can do my own work.”

Hank Smith: 17:11 Yeah, yeah.

John Bytheway: 17:12 So yeah, I mean I’m thinking of 23rd Psalm too. “Leadeth me beside still waters, good pastures.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 17:18 Yeah. And you jump over to verse 22, some really beautiful imagery, “I will save my flock and they shall no more be a prey.”

Hank Smith: 17:27 Be a good leader. If you have stewardship over anyone, this is an indictment to make sure you’re doing your role, you’re doing your job.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 17:35 And then if you jump over and look at verse 28, you’ll see, “And they shall no more be a prey,” there’s that word again, “to the heathen. And neither shall the beast of the land devour them. But they shall dwell safely and none shall make them afraid.” So we kind of live in a day where lots of people have lots of different kinds of fears, and lots of concerns about different parts of life. But how nice to be there where we don’t have to worry about that anymore.

Hank Smith: 18:03 Yeah, we’re in very safe hands. Right?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 18:06 So really fun things. I like chapter 34 too. It’s a good one.

Hank Smith: 18:10 It’s a little more uplifting than the previous few.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 18:15 The previous ones. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 18:15 Ezekiel got some good things to share with us. Jan, there’s a dozen or so more chapters. What should we highlight?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 18:21 Well for me, I particularly like 36 and 37. We just looked at 34, but 35 is really about, again, a destruction of another nation. It’s the destruction of Edom. And so again, we can just kind of see that as part of our other recognitions that other people will receive consequences for that. But 36 goes back to why has Israel been scattered? And then 37’s kind of a fun, I think, a dual prophecy chapter. There’s lots of stuff that could apply to their people at the time, but also the second coming. And you can really see the uniting of different scriptural records there in 37. And then we will eventually get to the prophecy of the temple. So about chapter 40 all the way through the end is really all about this future temple. But it would be fun if we spent some time looking at chapter 47.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 19:13 So if we want to jump over to 36 for just a second and kind of see if there’s things in there. Okay, so let’s have a look at 36. A couple of verses that stand out to me. Verse 6, Ezekiel gives a really bold commandment there to prophesy concerning the land of Israel. “Say unto the mountains, unto the hills, unto the river, unto the valley.” So lovely imagery of who I’m going to be speaking to. And then we have the Lord kind of saying, “I have spoken with the consequences in my jealousy and in my fury.” And hopefully people understand that God’s jealousy and anger, or jealousy is about covenants. It’s not about any other kind of jealousy. And His fury is manifested in just natural consequences. And the Lord’s kind of explaining verse 7, “I’ve lifted up my hand and here’s all the things that are happening to the people around you, and to you.” So the wicked, and all of that.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 20:08 But we’ve kind of had a lot of that. So if we want to turn our page over, I’d just like to focus on the positive things. We know about the scattering, we know about the destruction by this time. We’ve had lots of that. But the cool thing is starting in verse 21, “But I had pity for mine holy name, which the House of Israel hath profaned among the heathen whither they went. Therefore say unto the House of Israel, thus saith the Lord God, ‘I do not this for your sakes of House of Israel, but for mine holy name’s sake.'” So the Lord is interested in preparing a way for the Son of God to come to provide Him with a place to be born, and a place to preach. And so He’s going to do this amazing thing. And you start watching 23, 24, 25, 26 of what He’s going to do to prepare a place for this covenant to continue, and for the Messiah to be born into there.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 21:06 And I just love phrases like at the end of verse 23, “When I shall be sanctified in you, when I shall take you from among the heathen, gather you out of all countries, I will bring you unto your own land. I will sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean from all your filthiness and from all your idols. And I will cleanse you, and a new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you. Taking away that stony heart and give you a heart of flesh.” Like, wow, what language? But that’s the process of sanctification, of being redeemed. And this is what the Lord enjoys doing, His work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality eternal life of man. But that involves repentance, and changing, and sanctifying. So I love that part in chapter 36.

Hank Smith: 21:57 And Jan, this does feel like a dual prophecy that I’m preparing a way for the Messiah to come, but also for in the end days, the gathering of Israel.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:06 And because we have the first coming and the second coming of the Messiah, I think you could see both of them here. Got to get Him to come the first time in order for Him to come the second time. But either way you can see it applies to both circumstances.

Hank Smith: 22:19 I will gather you out of all countries. Yeah. That’s a comforting message to these people, I’m sure.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:27 I hope so. Because they’ve had a rough time of it. This is rough living through all of this. And we do need messages of hope. And that’s a real message of hope that the atonement is available, it encompasses all things, and we can move past all things. Be changed.

Hank Smith: 22:42 Yeah. And it sounds like they’ll look back and they’ll loathe their sins. They’ll be changed to where they’ll … He says in verse 31, “You’ll remember your evil ways and you’ll look back and you’ll see what I see.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:55 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 22:56 Tell us about 37, the dry bones.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 22:59 Well one of the things that this just strikes me, if you look at verse 2. So he’s looking in this valley, and he sees there were very many in the open valley, and lo they,” the bones, “were very dry.” And something I had just written in my margin as I’ve been thinking about these people and these bones was, I just wrote, “No hope.” That’s really kind of a great way to describe people that don’t have any hope. You’re just kind of dried out, and there’s no vitality anymore. And so what a fun question. “And He said unto me, ‘Son of man, can these bones live?’ And I answered, ‘Oh Lord God, thou knowest.'” Like what’s-

John Bytheway: 23:41 Yeah. What are you asking me for?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 23:43 Yeah, I don’t know. You’re God. But then look what He has him do. And again, the Savior does this often where He’ll let other people perform the miracles, or make the prophecies. He doesn’t always do everything Himself. “But He said unto me, ‘Prophesy upon these bones and say unto them, “Oh, you dry bones hear the Word of the Lord.”‘” So if you connect the fact that they’re very dry, and they have no hope, well what is the solution to having no hope? Hear the Word of the Lord, and then the Lord can cause these breath to enter, and that vitality restored. And you just see this cool resurrection of these dry bones returning.

Hank Smith: 24:23 The sinews, and flesh, and the skin.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:25 Yeah. And ye shall live. Like what better imagery about what the Lord offers us than that?

Hank Smith: 24:33 Yeah. And that, I think how many of our listeners are going through things where they feel like they have dry bones?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:39 Yes.

Hank Smith: 24:40 No hope.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:41 Nothing’s ever going to be better.

Hank Smith: 24:43 And I’ll bring it all back. That’s beautiful.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 24:47 We live in a dry climate in Utah. I think we all know about dry. I happen to be one that always has dry skin, and dry mouth, and dry lips. And just living up here in this kind of harsh, high elevation, dry desert environment. And so I can relate very well to just what’s it like to feel moisturized and vital again. And there’s the word of the Lord. And Ezekiel gets to do it. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 25:10 Yeah. He gets to take part in it. A valley of bones comes to life. I wanted to mention with this great story in Ezekiel 37, a talk from Elder Uchtdorf called The Infinite Power of Hope. I hope everyone will go look at this. We’ll have a link to it on our show notes, followhim.co. But man, this is a beautiful talk about hope, and how you’ve mentioned, Jan, that these dry bones can kind of represent someone without hope. President Uchtdorf says, “The adversary uses despair to bind hearts and minds in suffocating darkness. Despair drains from us all that is vibrant, and joyful, and leaves behind the empty remnants of what life was meant to be. Despair kills ambition, it advances sickness, pollutes the soul, and deadens the heart.” This fits exactly doesn’t it? “Despair can seem like a staircase that leads only and forever downward. Hope, on the other hand is like the beam of sunlight rising up and above the horizon of our present circumstances. It pierces the darkness with a brilliant dawn. It encourages and inspires us to place our trust in the loving care of an eternal heavenly Father who has prepared a way for those who seek for eternal truth in a world of relativism, confusion and fear.” He then talks about what hope is. He says, “Never surrender, never allow despair to overcome your spirit. Embrace and rely upon the hope of Israel, for the love of the Son of God pierces all darkness, softens all sorrow, and gladdens every heart.” That’s the infinite power of hope from Elder Uchtdorf. And it kind of fits this story of these dry bones coming to life.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 26:57 It does. And I just want to point out verse 11, as you’re talking about that, and make this connection with their loss of hope. He says, “The bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold they say our bones are dried and our hope is lost. We are cut off for our parts.” And so your quote from Elder Uchtdorf of how do we restore hope when we feel that way? The whole House of Israel is kind of feeling that way.

Hank Smith: 27:24 Yeah.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 27:25 Such a great image, this valley of dry bones. And how are we going to get back from this, and turn to the Lord and get focused on his Word again? And let’s get that life breathing back into you.

Hank Smith: 27:36 I love the Lord asked Ezekiel the question, “Hey, you think we could bring this back?” He’s like “… If you say so.”

John Bytheway: 27:46 Yeah, I have a question. When you take a people captive and you bring them to your place in Babylon, what do you have them do? Okay, farm land here and we’ll tax you. Were they slaves, servants? Are they contributing to the national economy? Why would they take them there and keep them alive? Do they …

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 28:02 Well they are. So this group that goes out into the river bottoms, I suppose, is going to be used to help with the agriculture. And yes, they would be seen as slaves in that sense, second class citizens. But they’re contributing to the economy. Also, when we take Daniel’s people over into Babylon’s culture and court, you see them being put to work. They’re being wise men, they’re being used. So the point of taking these people is to take the best of a conquered nation and bring all those resources and utilize them yourself. They’re not going to be just on their own autonomous and doing whatever they want. They’re certainly going to be having to respond to the conquering nation. Yeah.

John Bytheway: 28:44 And they’re not just held in a prison either? They’re, “Okay now get to work, and we’ll tax you. And grow some stuff and we’ll eat it.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 28:53 Yeah, we’re going to try and assimilate you as best we can into producing for us, so we can utilize your talents and your abilities for the benefit of our nation.

Hank Smith: 29:00 Yeah. And by taking you out of your own land, you’re much less likely to rebel because you don’t know the area.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 29:04 So Nebuchadnezzar took, what, three different groups of captives, I believe, back, and took the best of everybody. He left all the poor people behind. So he’s taken the working class, the upper class, the middle class, and is utilizing them for his benefit.

John Bytheway: 29:18 Yeah. And that’s why Isaiah says, “Spades shall rule over them.” Because nobody who could either start a revolt, or was very capable of leadership was left behind.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 29:29 That’s really great that you’re thinking about those Isaiah chapters, because once you leave everyone back in Jerusalem, you don’t bring any of the upper class or the educated or anything, you take all of those and leave everyone behind. And so then who do you have to lead you? You’re really in a tough spot by that point in their society.

Hank Smith: 29:44 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 29:45 Yeah, it sounded awful. Some of those chapters we were reading before, “They’ll go find them, they’ll hunt them down in the caves, and they’ll die of pestilence.” Back in 33:27. I was like, “Ugh, what a verse.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 29:55 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 29:55 Anyway.

Hank Smith: 29:58 This chapter of hope leads right into our famous missionary verses, right?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 30:02 Yeah. So we have the two stick chapter verses there, bringing in these two records. Now we obviously have to be careful contextually about understanding how those people would’ve understood those verses, as well as a modern interpretation. Because we tend to go Bible, Book of Mormon, but they don’t have any of those things. And so they’re not going to see it like that. And so a more contextual understanding is this plea to accept the messages of the prophets of the north. So Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, combined with those of the South, Micah, Jeremiah, Habakkuk. So for them the house of Judah is the southern kingdom, and then the stick of Ephraim would be the northern kingdom. And we need to be careful and not overly do the application that we do today with Bible, Book of Mormon, because they just don’t have those books. But they do have northern and southern. So this is that kind of unity that’s been missing between the two kingdoms for a long time since they split.

John Bytheway: 31:00 A national reunification of the northern and the southern kingdom, is one level of this.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 31:06 Yes. And then unifying all of their records between the different prophets that they have, and being willing to accept the Word. So that’s how they would’ve understood it. But there’s nothing wrong with the way that we understand it, but we just need to be careful and distinguish the two different understandings.

Hank Smith: 31:21 Yeah. Much like we did with Isaiah. Look at the different levels.

John Bytheway: 31:25 There could be multiple fulfillments and applications.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 31:29 Yeah. We love that. And how fun that the solution to the lack of hope is turning back to the Word of the Lord. And then that verse 16 of what type of the Word of the Lord are we talking about here? All of the words that have been available to both kingdoms is where you’re going to find the rejuvenation and this hope, for them. For us, of course, we have a lot more books of scripture and that kind of thing.

Hank Smith: 31:52 Yeah. So on the first level it’s the reunification of this northern and southern kingdom. And then the second level is going to be books of scripture for Judah, the Bible, for Ephraim, the Book of Mormon. Join them to one, and they’ll become one in thine hand.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 32:08 So your modern day point two. So I’d say first point, uniting the kingdom. Second point, uniting those kingdom scriptures. And then for us, we’re going to bring in all the other Bible, Book of Mormon stuff after that.

John Bytheway: 32:20 Well I think that’s one of the reasons prophets are so skilled, and particularly Isaiah that we look at and say great are the words of Isaiah, is because he was able to make a prophecy with multiple fulfillments, with a current one and a future one at the same time. So Ezekiel is no exception to that. He’s doing the same thing.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 32:38 Yeah. And so if you jump over and look at verse 22, you see some really specifics there. “I will make them one nation,” which is what we’re hoping for in the land, and hasn’t been there for hundreds of years now, “upon the mountain of Israel. And one king shall be king to them all.” Which hasn’t happened for a long time. “And they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore at all.” So, yeah, for them the yearning for the days where they were a unified kingdom, where there was one king. That’s been around for a long time, and something that needs to be healed. And so it’s fun to see the Lord addressing that.

Hank Smith: 33:17 Yeah. And hopefully their one king is the Lord.

John Bytheway: 33:20 Yeah, got to stop thinking the Assyrians, or the Egyptians, or whoever’s your strongest ally,

Hank Smith: 33:26 Saul, David, or Solomon.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 33:29 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 33:29 Make your king the Lord. Because I remember, right, when they first chose a king didn’t the Lord tell Samuel, “They have rejected me” Not you, “They’ve rejected me.”

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 33:38 Yeah. And then you get verse 24 with this, “David, my servant shall be king over them.” But this is that kind of genealogical line of David, which Christ comes through. What a way to revitalize these dry bones by pushing them to the future and looking at things that they really have desired for a long time, and haven’t had. So a nice message to us. Let’s look at our promises. Let’s keep focusing on the things the Lord has promised for the future. It can really revitalize you and give you some hope.

Hank Smith: 34:08 Yeah, go back to your patriarchal blessing.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 34:11 Not forget the promises and things that are coming.

Hank Smith: 34:13 What did Elder Uchtdorf say once? “You can’t understand the valleys of life, the pits of life until you’re in the mountains of future experience. And you can look back and you can see.” He’s trying to give him a view from the future, that one day you’ll look back and you’ll see all of this the way I see it.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 34:31 Yeah. And so then the chapters that follow these ones, we have some discussion about the battles before the second coming. God mentioned Armageddon, all of those. And then we suddenly hit chapter 40, which is, let’s start on this temple. And so we get so much detail about the structure, the size, the rooms, the layout. You just go chapter after chapter through this temple. The fun one for us to talk about will be in chapter 47.

Hank Smith: 34:59 Well their temple was destroyed. So this chapter 40, laying out this brand new temple, this would be fun to read because they know their temple is gone.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 35:07 Yeah. And their temple symbolized the presence of God amongst them. To have God leave … Ezekiel even talks about that in some of those previous chapters, that the temple is no longer the House of the Lord, because they’ve defiled it, He’s gone. And therefore it’s burned to the ground. And then to give them the hope of a new one where God can come back and dwell is quite exciting for those poor dry bones. Let’s get some hope going.

Hank Smith: 35:36 Those poor dry bones.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 35:39 Okay, so you have Ezekiel, he’s coming out on verse 1 in chapter 47 to the door of the house. So he gets to look out the front, “And the waters issued out.” And so this water goes out eastward. And then you watch Ezekiel kind of interacting with the levels of this water. End of verse 3, it starts with his ankles. And then you have it coming to his knees. And then it goes to his loins. And then in verse 5, you’re now swimming in a river that could not be passed over any other way. And then you get this great question, “Son of man has thou seen this?” And then he’s like, “Well yeah.” And brings him out into the return of the brink of the river.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 36:25 And then you see this in verse 8, they go out to the east country down into the desert, into the sea, and the waters are healed. That saltiness of everything is healed. “Everything liveth and moveth.” So we have just had all those dry bones, we just watched everything become revitalized. And now we’re talking about water, which is what makes everything vivid and green, and not dry. And the healing that this living water brings. And the Word of God is often described as living water.

Hank Smith: 36:56 Yeah. Jesus himself said in John-

John Bytheway: 36:58 John 8. And it’s interesting that it’s fresh water, so it’s living water. And the Dead Sea is not fresh water, it’s what needs to be healed. It’s like below sea level, right? The Dead Sea?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 37:09 Yes.

John Bytheway: 37:10 So that is a Latter-Day prophecy that the Dead Sea will be healed. This is a Latter-Day occurrence that waters will come out from under the temple like a spring or something.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 37:21 Yeah. Some really cool things to think about. In Utah, in the west out here, we’re in the middle of a terrible drought. And so we can kind of relate to this shrinking of reservoirs and shrinking of seas. And the Great Salt Lake especially is on its way out, really. And that’s very similar to the Dead Sea and the salty content. But when the water departs, the salt is all left, and you still have a desert and you still have a place. So it’s fascinating to me that he’s not just describing the healing of the sea, but the desert around it, and everything about it, that it needs this healing. It’s fun to think about what that water is. I mean there’s so many things you could choose. The Word of God, or covenants, or temple relationships, and the eternal families, and the way God heals things. But I don’t know that you can find any better imagery than you find in Ezekiel with a lot of this. It’s just powerful.

Hank Smith: 38:15 Yeah. That out of the temple will come healing. It’ll cover the earth, and it’ll heal anything it touches.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:21 Yeah. So we love that chapter.

John Bytheway: 38:24 Yeah. For it to come out from under the temple is pretty cool.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:28 Look to the temple when you’re looking for that hope.

Hank Smith: 38:32 I like that Jan. Look to the temple for that hope. Jan, Dr. Martin, what a great day going through Ezekiel. How fun. I really see this book differently now. I think our listeners would be interested in your story as both a Bible scholar and a believing Latter Day Saint. What’s that journey been like for you?

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 38:52 I think I’ve had a very unique journey. I know that when you read my bio before, it’s kind of funny because there’s this physical education, exercise, physiology side to my life, which was my first bachelor’s, and my first master’s. But then I switched over, did a second master’s in early modern history, and then now Bible translation. So I have a broad academic set of experience that goes from physiology, to history, to scripture. And so I feel like I’ve had an opportunity to be quite educated in a wide variety of important things.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 39:26 What happens with education is it gives you a chance to look at the details of things. One of my very favorite classes as an undergrad was anatomy. Because I was looking at the human body under every little tiny bit of it. I got to see every muscle, every bone, everything. And that was a spiritual experience because I learned that this body of ours is way too organized to have been an accident. So for me it was a testifying experience.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 39:53 But the same thing happens as I’ve gone into history, and gone into scripture, and how we translate scripture, and how we got our English scriptures. Especially because I look at words. I’m a kind of a word nut. And I look at a word like adamant and I’m like, “Well what does that mean? And where did it come from? And how did it get in the scriptures? And what is its theological meaning?” And suddenly I’m minutely looking at something. But when you start following it back, you just have these spiritual experiences that are helping you recognize where the Lord’s hand is in all of this, and that none of this history, none of this Bible translation was accidental. And that the Lord is behind it in motivating it. And so my journey has been quite fascinating academically. But on every level of it, I have found my testimony being strengthened by the detail, and the small things, and the stuff that is just too organized, and too well planned to be coincidental.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 40:49 And so for me, it doesn’t always happen that way. Plenty of academics go in different directions with their faith. But for me it’s been revealing, it’s been confirming. My education has strengthened me. It has done everything positive. But I’ve looked at it that way, and allowed that to happen. There’s been a choice for me.

 Dr. Jan J. Martin: 41:09 So it’s been a fun journey. I’ve learned lots and it’s been great. Some people out there know that I did not get married in my 20s, like a lot of Latter Day Saints do. I got married in my 40s, which is a little bit more unusual. And even in that journey of trusting the Lord’s promises, of getting through 23 years of dating, which is a torture on its own self trying to date for that long of a time. Again, even those experiences have taught me that the Lord is in the details, that he had a plan for me, that I could trust Him, that His promises were real, and that I could move forward with hope. And even when circumstances didn’t match what I was expecting, He had it covered, and He got me, and He had me in His hands, and I was okay. And so even those journeys have strengthened my testimony. So I have a very strong testimony of God, and my education and my personal experiences have just confirmed Him as a reality for me.

Hank Smith: 42:08 Awesome. John, what a fun day.

John Bytheway: 42:10 Yeah. Changed the book of Ezekiel for me. And boy, I’ve got some great notes here. Remember our past with peace. That is an adamant for me. That’s a gem. That’s a diamond.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 42:22 Awesome.

John Bytheway: 42:23 Thank you for sharing that. And I’m also eager to get a copy of, And They Shall Grow Together: The Bible in the Book of Mormon. I think our listeners will be blessed by that too.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 42:34 Yeah, there’s lots of great scholarship in there to help us understand the connection between the Bible, Book of Mormon. And I hope I contribute something very helpful to 2 Nephi 5. Which can be a troubling chapter, so it’s worth your time.

Hank Smith: 42:47 Well, thank you Dr. Jan Martin for being here. I’m sure this isn’t the last time we’ll see you.

Dr. Jan J. Martin: 42:51 Hope not. I’d love to come again another time. Love it.

John Bytheway: 42:54 Let’s do.

Hank Smith: 42:55 We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we hope all of you will join us next week. We have another episode of FollowHIM.

John Bytheway: 43:09 We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Nielsen, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.