Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:11 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:20 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith, I am your host. And I am here with my co-host whom I shall describe like this. For since the beginning of the world, men have not heard nor perceived by the ear, neither hath the eye seen a co-host likened to John Bytheway. John, when I read that verse in Isaiah 64, I immediately thought of you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:46 Was it the Greeks who invented co-hosts?

Hank Smith: 00:00:51 I was going to make a joke about neither hath the eye seen, your favorite phrase is, I have a face that’s perfect for audio.

John Bytheway: 00:00:58 Let’s watch this on audio only.

Hank Smith: 00:01:01 Yes. What a beautiful verse, Isaiah 64 verse 4. Sadly, it’s not about you, John. It’s about the things that God has prepared for those who wait for him. We have been studying Isaiah now for the last, what, John? Has it been four weeks, we’ve been studying Isaiah? We’re on our fifth and final lesson, so we needed somebody who could bring us home, give us a good finish to our Isaiah lessons this year. So, who’s here with us?

John Bytheway: 00:01:25 I’m so excited to read this bio because it’s so interesting. We have Dr. Ross Baron with us today. He was born and raised in Southern California, joined the church when he was 18, and served a mission, sounds like not much later, in Argentina, Buenos Aires South, which was divided and then finished in Argentina, Bahia Blanca.

John Bytheway: 00:01:45 When he returned, he came home, met, and fell in love with Kathleen Anne Bolton and they were sealed in the Los Angeles temple. He has nine children, five boys and four girls. Received a bachelor’s degree from BYU Provo in Finance, a master’s degree and a PhD from USC in Religion and Social Ethics and was involved in business and entrepreneurship before he went to work full-time as an institute director and CES coordinator in Southern California at the Glendora and Claremont Institutes.

John Bytheway: 00:02:17 And after 12 years as an institute director and coordinator, came to teach at BYU Idaho in the summer of 2005. From 2018 to 2019, he was a visiting professor at BYU Jerusalem where the whole family lived for a year. He said, “I love to teach and learn. For me, there’s nothing so exciting as being in a classroom with students who are anxious, bright, and ready to learn by study and by faith.”

John Bytheway: 00:02:41 And Hank, he listed some unique things that he has done. This is going to be fun to read. Swam across the San Francisco Bay for the Escape From Alcatraz Triathlon.

Hank Smith: 00:02:53 Okay.

John Bytheway: 00:02:55 He went on The Price is Right and won a stove, a mop, and a barrel sauna.

Hank Smith: 00:03:00 Oh, my goodness.

John Bytheway: 00:03:02 He went on the History Channel to represent the church. And some of these we’ve got to ask him about, participated in a radio show in Southern California where callers could ask any questions about the church. He played the drums with a group of institute students at the Hard Rock Cafe in Los Angeles. Played the drums at Guitars Unplugged in the fall of 2005 and the winter of 2006, and their group made it to the best of in both semesters. He played chess in the US Open Tournament in 1991 in Los Angeles.

Hank Smith: 00:03:32 My goodness.

John Bytheway: 00:03:34 I’m not done, Hank. He has spoken at Christian colleges and universities on the church. He has led six community firesides about the church where thousands attended. And this is the part that makes me want to jot this down, he’s featured on the website fairlds.org. You can probably watch those firesides. And so, I’m so glad to have Dr. Baron with us today, with such a fascinating bio. Thank you for joining us today, Dr. Baron, from Rexburg right now?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:04 A little outside of Rexburg, Idaho Falls. We’re a little farming community called Ririe.

John Bytheway: 00:04:09 Ririe. I’ve been to Ririe.

Hank Smith: 00:04:11 Welcome, Dr. Baron. We’re happy you’re here.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:14 Well, I’m thrilled to be with you guys. And I think you’re doing a great work and I love listening to your podcast, so I’m honored to be with you today.

Hank Smith: 00:04:21 Oh, cool. Cool. We love it when the listener comes on, because they know exactly how this works. What we’re going to do is turn this over to you. We want to be here, we want to listen. Maybe throw in an insight or two, but tell us what do our listeners need to know? If you’re taking students into the book of Isaiah for even the first time, what do they need to know to get into chapters of Isaiah?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:04:46 Great. I wanted to do something interesting, I thought, to start. I was listening to your podcast with Shon Hopkin with respect to Psalm 22 and he kept bringing up Isaiah 53. And John, in my intro, talked about, I am a convert. I grew up Jewish. I grew up 100%. My mom and dad are Jews, my grandparents are Jews, my great grandparents are Jews. I 100% have a Jewish background. Went to Hebrew school as a little kid, had a bar mitzvah when I was 13.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:16 And so, when I was a senior in high school, what happened was, I don’t know why 100%, but I decided to read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I can honestly say, growing up, we never had one single conversation about Jesus Christ in my home. Not one. And so, I was this curious kid, and I thought, “I’m going to read the New Testament,” except we don’t have one. I don’t have access. I’ve never laid eyes on one.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:05:41 So, I went to my high school library and I went and asked if I could read the New Testament. And she gave me the Phillips Modern English version of the New Testament. I didn’t know there were different versions. It was, “Hey, man, come follow me. Yo, dude,” the version. I thought, “Wow, Jesus is awesome. This is way easier than the Hebrew Bible.” I read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I had an experience that using Latter-day Saint speak, I felt the Holy Ghost.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:06:08 Back then, I knew I was feeling something powerful, but it was testifying to me that it was true. So, I didn’t know quite what to do with that. I had a friend in high school who was a Latter-day Saint. There were only four, I think, Latter-day Saints in my high school, four or five. We were going into a class, about five minutes before a class, I said, “Hey, Craig, what do you guys believe?” This 17-and-a-half-year-old gives me like the plan of salvation perfectly. I was blown away. It was so amazing how he laid it out to me.

Hank Smith: 00:06:39 Wow.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:06:40 I said, “Hey, can I go maybe come over to your house?” Just one little backstory here. A couple days before, this born again Christian guy had invited me to the Maranatha Club, which was a high school club for Christians. I went to it and it was very nice. I didn’t feel anything particularly well, but they were really nice people.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:01 And afterwards, one of the young men came to me and said, “So, Ross, what’d you think?” And I said, “Oh, thanks for inviting me,” and all this kind of stuff. Then, he said something that literally changed my life. He said, “Whatever you do, don’t read the Book of Mormon. It’s the devil’s book.” That came out of nowhere.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:17 That guy has no idea how many baptisms he’s responsible for. But in the end, that’s why that next day, I was talking to that young man. So, I said, “Hey, is there a way I can get a copy of the Book of Mormon?” Like, “How do I get one? Can I buy one?” He goes, “No, no, no. Come over to my house after school. We’ve got a basket full of …”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:37 We drove to his house after school and his dad was there. He was a fireman so he had that day off and we ended up talking for hours. And he goes, “Listen,” I said, “Can I get a copy of the Book of Mormon?” Can you imagine if somebody goes, “Hey, could you please get me a copy of the Book of Mormon?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:07:51 Yeah, I can get you a copy of it. So, he gives me the Book of Mormon. And he said, “Well, you like to read?” I said, “I love to read.” So, he gave me Jesus the Christ. He gave me Articles of Faith by James E. Talmage, and he gave me A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by LeGrand Richards.

John Bytheway: 00:08:02 Oh, my word.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:02 And so, I left his house and I was like, “Hey, thanks so much.” And in about three weeks, I read the Book of Mormon, Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith and Marvelous Work and a Wonder.

Hank Smith: 00:08:11 Oh, my word.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:13 I want to be clear, anybody who’s read Jesus the Christ, I’m not saying I understood all of it.

Hank Smith: 00:08:17 Right. It’s a big book.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:18 But I felt the power of it. It was while reading the Book of Mormon, I had another experience similar to what I’d had while reading Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I’d had this experience. And so I went, at three and a half weeks later, knocked on their door and basically said, “How do I join your church? What do I do?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:37 Now, I tell you all that, because when Dr. Hopkin was talking about Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53, now, you got to remember I was raised with the Hebrew Bible, and so what happened was I had kind of immersed myself, Book of Mormon, all this kind of great stuff. I’d read Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. I was having missionary discussions.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:08:56 But then, all of a sudden, I kind of had to step back like, “Wait, is Jesus real?” And you know what the two chapters were that put me over the edge? Psalm 22, Isaiah 53. Oh, my word. When I read Psalm 22 through the lens of having read the Book of Mormon, Jesus the Christ, Articles of Faith, Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and then, when I read Isaiah 53, it was the capstone for me and I cannot overemphasize the power and the way, again, my eyes were opened and I was able to see that this truly was talking about the master. It was talking about Jesus Christ.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:34 So, when you say, well, what do people need to know? What would someone need to know about Isaiah? I think what they need to know, and if we could, if you don’t mind, if we could go to first Nephi 19:23 to start, to me, this is what we would have to start with, so first Nephi 19:23.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:09:53 And a lot of times, what people will do is they’ll focus on the idea of likening. But if I could just read this, this is Nephi speaking. I did read many things unto them, his brethren, which were written in the books of Moses, but this line, “But that I might more fully persuade them to believe in the Lord their redeemer.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:10:12 I did read unto them that was written by the prophet Isaiah. So, if somebody came to me and said, “Hey, Ross, do I need to know…” Look, I can tell you the time about Isaiah wrote and I can tell you some background about the kings that he was over and the area he was in. But I would say the single most important thing is that when you read Isaiah, you’re going to learn more about Jesus Christ.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:10:35 You’re going to learn more about the Lord, your redeemer than anywhere else. And if we could also go to second Nephi 11 verse 8, and this is when Nephi is about to introduce all of the kind of Isaiah chapters. And in verse eight, excuse me, verse two, we’re going to read verse eight later. “And now I Nephi write more of the words of Isaiah, for my soul delighteth in his words, for I will liken his words unto my people and I will send them forth unto all my children.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:01 And then this line, “For he verily saw my redeemer even as I have seen him.” So, in answering that question, I would say, there is no question that this is a Christ-centered book and that we can learn about Jesus, about his nature, his character, his attributes, his perfections. We can learn about the plan.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:11:22 Isaiah, I like to do a subject index with my students, but I’ll talk about that a little later too. But you can learn about pre-mortality, mortality, post-mortality about Jesus in Isaiah. That was a long answer to your question, but yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:11:35 That’s great. So, what’s kind of fun about that is that clearly Nephi saw Christ in those Isaiah chapters and I suppose having them on the brass plates wanted to share that with everybody. But I love that to more fully persuade them to believe in their redeemer. And so, clearly he sees Jesus in those chapters.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:00 That’s right. That’s exactly right.

John Bytheway: 00:12:01 I want to go back to your conversion story. How did this sit with your family and everything? Was that difficult?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:07 Yeah, so I think that’s a great question. And I would say this, that my mom and dad, I pay tribute to them. They were amazing parents, super loving. My grandparents, again, very Jewish. If you haven’t come from that background, I mean, it was a very Jewish background. And of course they were freaking out when I joined the church. This was pre-1978, so the blacks hadn’t got the priesthood yet. BYU is known kind of as a racist university. There was all these kind of things going on. So it was hard. It was a very difficult thing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:39 What changed it for them, honestly, kind of funny. I was working for my father. My dad had a big medical distribution company. And I’d cut my hair and I’d done my dental work and I’d paid off my car. And my dad knew all that. I had received a mission call. He didn’t know what that was. And he didn’t know I’d received a mission call.

John Bytheway: 00:12:58 No kidding.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:12:59 I was working down in the warehouse and I got this like, Ross Baron, come up to the front desk, please, which meant my dad wanted to talk to me. So, I went up upstairs to the executive offices and my dad says, “Hey, I just want to just say we’re so impressed. You’ve cut your hair and you paid off your truck.” I was like, “Thanks dad.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:14 Then later that evening, he and my mom were talking to my sister and my sister, who’s three years older than me said, “Oh, you guys don’t know what that means?” And they’re like, “What?” “He’s going on a mission.” And so the next day I got, Ross Baron, come up to the front desk, please.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:30 So I went up and my dad says, “You just need to be honest with me. Are you going on a mission?” And I said, “I am.” He said, “Where are you going?” I said, “I’m going to Argentina.” “Well, can we visit you?” “No.” All those kinds of things.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:13:43 But it was the mission when I got back from the mission and they saw the fruits of the mission. Again, another Isaiah passage, “The show of their countenance doth witness against them.” I think Isaiah wouldn’t be upset if we said the show of their countenance doth witness for them. And I think they saw that I had become a new creature in Christ. I’d become a new being.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:14:06 And to this day, my parents, they defend the church. They’re in circles that none of us could ever get in Southern California and Los Angeles. And if somebody says anything about the church, man, they’re there. They defend. They support. So, initially rocky and then grew to become amazing.

John Bytheway: 00:14:26 How beautiful. Wow. Hank, this has been a great podcast already and all we did was the introduction.

Hank Smith: 00:14:33 Yeah, this is fantastic.

John Bytheway: 00:14:35 What a great story. Oh man.

Hank Smith: 00:14:36 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:14:37 When you go out to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John in the King James Version did you still like it then?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:14:43 I did. In fact, I felt more, that’s funny. I felt more at home. I mean, I liked the Phillips Modern. You’re 17 and a half, you’re reading that. But again, I was used to the Hebrew Bible. I was used to Hebrew. When I got the King James, it was a little more poetic, but beautifully written. It was a powerful experience for me. So, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:15:03 Forgive my ignorance, but so you weren’t Orthodox Jewish, but you were practicing. You were reading the Hebrew. You could read Hebrew.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:12 Yeah. So, in my family, we have a blend of orthodox, conservative, reform. So, we get all of them together. We had, of course, Passover and all the holy days, and we did all of that. I’ll tell you, fast forward, when I was at USC getting my PhD, I took classes at Hebrew Union. They had a reciprocal relationship with USC.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:34 And I was essentially in rabbinic. I was with these Rabbinic students. I would come from institute, I would come with my white shirt and tie and my suit on. And I was with these other guys. And the guy that taught this particular class was David Ellenson, who was the president of Hebrew Union. Wonderful man.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:15:50 Now, they did not know that I was a Jewish convert, but I would say Hebrew things and I would even speak some Yiddish. And Yiddish is kind of the way Jews speak on the street, because Hebrew is the language of God. So, if you’re Orthodox, you don’t speak Hebrew kind of with other people, you speak Yiddish. So, my grandparents spoke Yiddish, my great-grandparents spoke Yiddish, my parents spoke a little Yiddish. But anyway, so I knew enough.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:17 So, anyway, I would say the Hebrew word of the Yiddish word, and they’d be like, “Man, Latter-day Saints are amazing. How could you possibly know that?” I’d be like, and they’re like, “Unbelievable.”

John Bytheway: 00:16:31 It was incredible. You learned this stuff in primary.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:35 Yeah. I mean, this is Sacrament meeting stuff, man, priesthood meeting.

John Bytheway: 00:16:38 Wow, that’s great. What a great story. Thank you for that. How do you want to approach these chapters? Ross, we want our listeners to love these chapters like you did.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:16:47 Yes. And they should love these chapters. It’s incredible. I’m so excited. So, I teach writings of Isaiah at BYU Idaho. And this is how I kind of do my writings of Isaiah class. So, my students come first day and they always ask, hey, we read your syllabus and what book are we supposed to get? And I go, oh, you’re going to get the book of Isaiah. They’re like, really? Who wrote that? They get their pencils out. We’re just going to read the book of Isaiah in the scriptures. No, no, no. We get that Brother Baron. We want to know what book though we should get. What commentary. I say, we’re going to go the hard way. We’re going to go and we’re going to read the text.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:17:29 And at first that surprises them. But one of my things that I’d like to do, one of the purposes I’d love to do with you guys today is have John Bytheway, Hank Smith, Ross Baron kind of model. How we would look at a text or how we would look at the scriptures. And one of the things I do when I frame this is I say, you can take a chapter of say of Isaiah, the first thing I want you guys to do, these would be my students. I just want you to go through say the verses and just circle or write down every name that Isaiah gave for God.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:18:03 Anytime there’s a name for God, write it down. And here’s the deal, and I think you guys know this, but the Hebrew word for name is Shem. And it means more than kind of, I call John John or I call Hank Hank. It actually had significance in terms of status. So we know about name changes, Saul becomes Paul, Abram becomes Abraham, Sarai becomes Sarah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:18:28 And these things have significance. New names mean something’s happened in terms of your status. And we even know that, for example, in our world. If you get a PhD, people now call you doctor. So, there’s been a change in the status of the name. So, I just say, we’re just going to take a chapter, go through, find all the names for God.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:18:46 Okay. Now, one of the most amazing things about Isaiah, if you want to have a great experience, start in chapter one, go to chapter 66 and just create a name list. Isaiah is the most prolific name giver for God anywhere in scripture. No one has more names. And each name is a prism, is a window into who God is.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:12 So it’s not just an academic exercise, it’s literally to have you say, wow, I’m going to be more fully persuaded to believe in Jesus, because Isaiah’s going to teach me about all his character attributes and perfections, and I’m going to learn about these names.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:28 So, for example, in Isaiah 58 through 66, here’s some of the names for, and these are through all these chapters, God, Lord, Redeemer. Now by the way, Redeemer as a noun, Isaiah is the most prolific user of the word Redeemer of any prophet, okay. Lord, thy God. Here’s another one, the Holy One of Israel. That’s one you normally would think, oh yeah, Holy One of Israel. Guess who started it? Isaiah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:19:58 Now, the first mention of Holy One of Israel is second Kings 19. But second Kings 19 is Hezekiah as the king, Isaiah is the prophet. Now the psalmist uses Holy One of Israel as well, but we don’t always know the dating of the Psalms. Are they post Isaiah, pre-Isaiah? We don’t totally know, but in any way, holy one of Israel.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:20:19 Savior is also mentioned in Isaiah 58 through 66. Here’s a powerful one, the Mighty One of Jacob. Wow, the Mighty One of Jacob, Lord God. Here’s another one. It’s a noun phrase, I that speak in righteousness. That’s his name, I that speak in righteousness. That’s Isaiah 63 verse 1. Also it might interest people. In Isaiah 58 through 66, our father, our father is mentioned twice. Our potter. He’s the potter, we’re the clay and God of truth.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:20:52 So, those are some names. So again, if we were in a class right now, we’d take a chapter. We’re just going to go through, find the names, and then we’re going to have a discussion. What do we learn from the names?

John Bytheway: 00:21:03 How does each name teach us something different?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:05 Tell me what you guys think when you hear the word redeemer, when you hear the holy one of Israel, I that speak in righteousness, all these beautiful phrases. So, I’d have them do that. The second thing I’d have them do is I’d have them go through and write all the place names.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:22 Every time a place is mentioned, I’d say write it down. So, you’ve got Jerusalem, Zion, Edam, Bozek, Tarshish. I’d have them write all the names down. And we live in an amazing time. I would have them go to bibleatlas.org and I would have them find out where those places are.

Hank Smith: 00:21:41 Where are those places?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:21:43 Where are those places? Where is Javan and Tubal? Where is Lebanon? Where are the fields of Sharon? Where are all these places? Why is Isaiah using them? I think he’s using them for a reason. They’re all there for a particular reason. So, that’s the second thing I would have them do. So, they’re going to go through and find all the names of God. They’re going to also go through and find all of the place names.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:04 And the third thing I have them do is I wanted them to find weird phrases or words they just don’t know, right? Just strange words. So for example, in Isaiah 58 through 66, you’ve got bulrush. That’s a word that comes up, a bulrush. The high places of the earth, cockatrices’ eggs, gross darkness, abundance of the sea, the forces of the gentiles, sons of strangers. Here’s an interesting one, exactors, exactors, daughter of Zion.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:22:37 So, I would just say, okay, go through. And then you’re going to look up what those words mean. We’re going to find out what those words mean. So, we found names of God, place names, strange words or phrases that we’re going to define. And then, my fourth and final thing I have them do is they’ve got to do a subject index for the chapter. So a lot of times when we read a narrative, we have a beginning, a middle, and an end whereas Isaiah of course, doesn’t always do that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:09 He much like John the Revelator, kind of unconcerned with a linear chronology and is willing to kind of go back even within a couple of verses, then jump forward. Right? And so, I basically have create a subject index. And they’re like, Brother Baron, this chapter talks about the millennium, the first coming of Christ, the second coming of Christ and the restoration. I’m like, awesome. That’s amazing. This chapter’s talking about the temples. That’s correct. Good. So, we create a subject index.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:41 And then I want to give them tools. So, in second Nephi, chapter 25 verse 8, do we mind? Can we read that together?

Hank Smith: 00:23:48 Yeah, let’s do it.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:23:48 Hank, would you be okay reading that for us?

Hank Smith: 00:23:51 I am a good second Nephi reader, 25 verse 8. “Wherefore, they,” these are the words of Isaiah, “are of worth unto the children of men, and that supposed this, that they are not unto them will I speak particularly?” So, you who don’t think, you, who doesn’t like Isaiah, I’m talking to you. “And confine the words unto my own people for I know that they shall be of great worth unto them in the last days for in that day shall they understand them.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:24:21 Yeah. So, in that day, they shall understand them. So, I want to suggest that we live in a particularly interesting time where … So for example, if you are in my class, you’re 22 years old, and boom, you go through the names of Isaiah, then we go with place names and weird phrases, and now we do a subject index. I say, you can understand this. Now you do have to pay a price.

John Bytheway: 00:24:47 There’s some work involved.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:24:48 Yeah. It’s not going to be had on the cheap. The nuggets, the treasures. And by the way, I would even say the peace and the power of the spirit that if you would take that time, you could tap into what President Nelson talks about Hear Him, that it is literally a conduit through which you could hear Him.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:25:12 And what I want to say is we have the gift of the Holy Ghost, number one, we have prophets and apostles number two. We have Latter-day scripture, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, the Old and New Testaments, all of these, the plan of salvation can frame. You’ve got footnotes. You’ve got the Joseph Smith translation. And then you might be surprised, I don’t think you are, but we have technology today that 20 years ago you couldn’t have got.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:25:39 For example, I know you guys know the scripture citation index that was put out by Stephen Little and Richard Galbraith, right? It’s a free app. I think it’s the greatest app since the Fall. I honestly do. I think there’s no greater app since the Fall. So for those of your listeners who don’t know, scriptures.byu., I think it’s .edu.

Hank Smith: 00:25:59 Yep.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:26:01 And you can download it on your phone. It’s free. It’s a work of love. So, you can look at any scripture, tap on any scripture and now know what from Joseph Smith to Russell M. Nelson, what they’ve said about it.

Hank Smith: 00:26:15 Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:26:16 What?

Hank Smith: 00:26:17 Unbelievable. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:26:18 What? Every six months, it’s updated again after general conference. And it also has one of the best search engines we have. Like let’s say you wanted to say holy one of Israel, you could hit search scriptures. You could just say, I want to see in the Old Testament. You can narrow it down the holy one of Israel. It’ll tell you every single place that shows up. In addition, not only does it give you every single what every prophet apostle has said about a particular verse, it has an amazing search engine.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:00 Number two, the blueletterbible.org. I have no financial interest in it. It is a free site. Anybody here can go to blueletterbible.org. Now, the beauty of blueletterbible.org is if I’m listening to this podcast and I’m thinking, yeah, but Ross went to Hebrew school as a kid and he has an advantage I don’t have. And maybe in some ways that’s true, but I want to say we’re at a time before the second coming of Christ in the latter days where we have access to things people have not had access to.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:17 So you can click on a verse in blueletterbible.org and it’ll literally go word by word what the English word is, what the Hebrew word is, and what all the latitude of definitions are on that Hebrew word. You can have a PhD in Hebrew and that’s incredible. Good for you. But if we’re talking about somebody who’s living anywhere in the world who’s listening to this and they really want to do the work on their own, they can look at a chapter, break it down this way, and have this incredible, incredible experience with this technology.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:27:49 I talked about the Bible atlas, there’s online dictionaries. In other words, I’m saying second Nephi 25:8 is in process of being fulfilled in a particularly unique way for us right now.

John Bytheway: 00:28:01 Yeah. The only thing needed is our work.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:04 Exactly.

John Bytheway: 00:28:05 That’s the missing ingredient.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:06 He’s given us this frame. And he is basically saying, literally there’s everything out there for you. And you don’t have to have somebody who’s got a PhD in near Eastern Studies or in Hebrew. God knew that. Okay, so he translates the Book of Mormon by the Gift and Power of God through the Prophet Joseph Smith, and it’s in English.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:27 And he knew that 99.9% of the members of the church wouldn’t know Hebrew, but they’re still going to benefit from it. And I think it’s an amazing thing. Again, that was a long answer to kind of the intro there.

Hank Smith: 00:28:40 No, I love it. It’s empowering to people. Doesn’t have to go: well, that’s Isaiah. I guess I just won’t get it.

John Bytheway: 00:28:47 I can skip this part.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:28:49 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:28:49 Say no, there’s tools available. Let’s do this.

John Bytheway: 00:28:52 Yeah. When has it ever been easier? Was it President Kimball that said, “I believe the Lord is anxious to put into our hands inventions, of which the layman has hardly had a glimpse”. And I think of what we’re carrying in our hands, the citation index, the scriptures are all there, Come, Follow Me manuals. All of this is there. It’s exciting what you said, Ross, it’s just like, if you want it, for most of us, it’s right there in your hand.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:15 Yeah. And by the second week of the writings of Isaiah class, the class is electric, it’s on fire. Because these students come back into class having done the assignments, pre-class assignments, and they want to share this is what’s going on. They’ve paid the price. They’ve had this experience.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:29:33 And I think in third Nephi 23, of course, when the Savior admonishes us, in fact, let’s go there if you don’t mind, third Nephi 23 verse 1. And third Nephi 23 verse 1, of course the Savior’s among the Nephites. And he makes specific mention of course, of Isaiah verse 1. John, do you want to read that for us?

John Bytheway: 00:29:57 Yeah. “And now behold, I say unto you that he ought to search these things. Yea, a commandment I give onto you that you search these things diligently for great are the words of Isaiah.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:09 And my comment would be, he never asks us to read Isaiah.

John Bytheway: 00:30:12 He says search.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:13 He tells us to search Isaiah. And that’s a fun discussion about what’s the difference between read, study, search. And he doesn’t just say search, he says, search diligently. And great are the words of Isaiah. I mean, that’s the Lord’s stamp of approval on Isaiah. It’s incredible.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:32 And so he’s inviting us to come to know him through Isaiah. And Isaiah, I think, most of your listeners understand is that Isaiah, it’s like the Doctrine and Covenants. Because if you say, well, where’s Isaiah on the page? He’s almost off the page. It’s first person. God is speaking first person through Isaiah. It’s thus sayeth the Lord. Isaiah’s the mouthpiece.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:30:57 Just like if you read section one of the Doctrine and Covenants and said, well, where’s Joseph Smith? He’s not on the page. He’s speaking through Joseph, he’s speaking through Isaiah. I think Jesus is saying, I’m going to invite you to come to know me. I’m going to invite you to hear my voice. I’m going to invite you to search this diligently for the treasures, the nuggets that are there. But yeah, there’s a price to be paid.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:20 And there’s a quote from Elder Neil L. Andersen back in 2014. He gave it at a general authority evening with a general authority call. And this is the quote, this is from Neil L. Andersen, “Spiritually, the classroom of faith becomes less like a lecture hall and more like a fitness center.” Cool analogy. “Students do not get stronger by watching someone else do the exercises. They learn and then participate. As their spiritual strength increases, they gain confidence and apply themselves all the more.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:31:55 That’s again, February 28th, 2014, entitled A Classroom of Faith, Hope and Charity by Neil L. Andersen at the Quorum of the Twelve. I read that and I’m inspired, absolutely inspired. Okay, again, this is a pretty long intro, but I think it’s worth it.

Hank Smith: 00:32:12 So do I. And it gets you excited. One big thing that John and I love is that our listeners are getting excited to say, I’m going to go give this a try. I would say don’t bite off more than you can chew. It’s okay to do a little at a time. Sometimes you look at all 66 chapters and I don’t even know where to start. Well, start somewhere where you’re familiar with maybe Isaiah 53 or Isaiah 54 or some of those Book of Mormon Isaiah chapters.

Hank Smith: 00:32:35 You’ll get it over time. I imagine you Ross and you John didn’t get this the moment you started to put forth effort. It takes a while, but you’ll get a little more every time.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:32:44 It does. Here’s the subject index that I created from Isaiah 58 through 66. Now again, I’m a gospel nerd. I love this stuff. Not like, love.

John Bytheway: 00:32:55 This is what we do for fun. It’s a little bit weird.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:32:58 This is what I do for fun. So, proper fasting, blessings of fasting, Sabbath day, first coming of Christ, second coming of Christ, millennium, Christ’s character attributes and perfections, Zion, the redemption of Zion, the ultimate triumph of Israel, the apostasy, the restoration, everlasting covenants, gathering of Israel, watchman on the tower, our identity, Gentiles, justice and temples. That’s in Isaiah 58 through 66.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:28 Well that’s pretty cool. If you have other you want to jump in, but I thought we could maybe start in Isaiah 58.

Hank Smith: 00:33:35 Yeah, let’s take out some pieces of this and kind of walk through it, show how it’s done, and then hope that our listeners are going to not look at it and go, oh, I hope I get stronger by listening. No, you get stronger by going in and trying some yourself.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:33:48 So, just as a side note in Isaiah 58, it is the single longest scriptural instruction and passage about fasting. So, you got Matthew four, the Savior fasts, right? Elijah fasts, Moses fasted. We know about fasting. There are some super interesting great comments. But if somebody said, well, help me understand what I need to do to improve my fast, or what warning signs should I be looking for to not fast a particular way? Isaiah 58 is the answer like there’s nowhere else in scripture that has this thing.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:34:22 I would also say from my experience with young people over the last 30 years, fasting is the most underutilized tool that we have to grow closer to God and to connect with him and to receive that piece that comes only from the spirit. Most underutilized tool.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:34:44 He starts us off. And I actually break it down into this question that Isaiah 58, the people seem to be addressing that he’s going to kind of rhetorically use is we’re fasting but you’re not taking notice. We’re afflicting our souls but you don’t hear us. So I would create three columns. Column number one would say improper fast or fasting behavior, proper fasting behavior and then blessings from a proper fast. And then these incredible verses.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:35:17 So, verses three and four, “Wherefore have we fasted say they, and thou seest not?” That’s kind of the key question. “Wherefore have we afflicted our soul and thou taketh no knowledge?” And then the answer, “Behold, in the day of your fast, you find pleasure.” And then this interesting phrase, “and exact all your labors.” Now the word for exact here is to drive people to work. And it comes from the word nagash in Hebrew, which is the same word used in Exodus when Moses is concerned about the people who are being the taskmasters who are over them are exacting them.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:35:56 So, the people are fasting, they’re finding pleasure, they’re exacting all their labors. You fast, verse four, for strife and debate to smite with the fist of wickedness. You shall not fast as you do this day to make your voice to be heard on high.

Hank Smith: 00:36:10 There’s a reason this fast is not working. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:13 This is not going to work. And then he goes through these absolutely beautiful verses in five through seven, five, he also has some critical stuff. “Is it such a fast that I have chosen a day for a man to afflict his soul? Is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? Wilt thou call this a fast and acceptable day unto the Lord.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:32 Now I would say that some people might say, well, aren’t we supposed to kind of afflict ourselves in that way? But I think this goes back to the Savior in Matthew chapter 6. His criticism to them was that they were doing it for outward reasons, not really to connect with God. So, I think that’s what’s going on in that particular verse.

Hank Smith: 00:36:53 It’s a time to be humble.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:36:55 Exactly. He says, if you want to fast, anoint your head, Matthew chapter 6, Jesus teaches us our countenance should be upright, cheerful, not down. We’re showing everybody how humble we are. But then, he goes in verses six and seven in these phenomenal verses, here’s the fast I’ve chosen essentially verse six, “To loose the bands of wickedness to undo heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free that you break every yoke, deal your bread to the hungry,” I’m in verse seven, “bring the poor that are cast out to the house. When thou seest the naked, cover him, that thou hide not thyself from thine own flesh.”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:37:34 I mean, wow. So, we’re talking about repentance, we’re talking about … I actually think we’re talking to a certain degree about the mission of the church to proclaim the gospel, to take care of the needy, to live the gospel and to redeem, to unite families. I mean, isn’t that what’s going on here?

John Bytheway: 00:37:56 Interesting to me that he’s connecting our fasting with taking care of the poor. As a kid, mom always said, well, we fast and then we give what we would’ve spent in our fast offerings. Was there some sort of a system or understanding in place back then that you’re going to fast and help the poor? I mean, I see footnote seven and eight says alms giving.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:17 Yeah, it’s not clear to me exactly the procedure by how that would’ve occurred, but I believe there was some form or some system. Clearly, for example in Mark chapter 12, when the widow puts her mite into the temple treasury, clearly they talked about taking care of the poor. It’s not clear to me the mechanism by which all that was carried out like it is today in the church.

John Bytheway: 00:38:39 It’s just interesting that the poor connected with fasting right here. I just thought, oh wow, look at that in verse seven.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:38:44 Yeah. And by the way, this is 740 to 700 BC. We’re talking seven centuries before the master and they’re talking about taking care of the poor and connecting that to fasting. I actually think it’s brilliant. It’s one of the most incredible things to be part of that and to see how a word and the word fast offering can truly be central to fulfilling our role as disciples of Christ, which essentially is the Abrahamic covenant. And that’s what’s going on here. We’re connecting back the mission of the church, Abrahamic Covenant, Isaiah is talking about fasting and taking care of the poor.

John Bytheway: 00:39:18 Yeah, so if I pick this up, the people are saying, we are fasting and we’re not seeing all these benefits from God. And God is saying, no, you’re going hungry. You’re not fasting the way you should be fasting. Here is the fast I’m after. And if you want the blessings you got to do it my way.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:39:36 I love that. And I think it’s interesting, if you look in the handbook of instructions, the church handbook, it says this, “A fast day typically includes praying, going without food and drink for a 24 hour period if physically able and giving a generous fast offering,” 38.8 0.15.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:39:58 I like to tell my students and my family that there is a law that’s decreed in heaven before the foundation of the world upon which all blessings are predicated. If I want the full blessing, I’ve got to be fully obedient. My students say, yeah, I had my Cheerios this morning on the way to church, but then I didn’t eat during church and that’s my fast. I’m like, good for you. Good start. But if we want Isaiah 58 blessings, we’ve got to do Isaiah 58 obedience.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:40:29 Look at the promises now. These promises are literally stand all amazed. Verse eight, “Your light is going to break forth as the morning. Your health is going to spring forth speedily. Your righteousness shall go before you. The glory of the lord’s going to be,” here it says rearward the footnote rear guard. We’re going to get revelation because verse nine, you’re going to call the Lord’s going to answer. You’re going to cry.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:40:51 He’s going to say, here I am. But you got to take away the yoke. You can’t point your finger at other people. Quit speaking vanity. If your soul’s drawn out to the hungry, I’m in verse 10, you have the afflicted soul, then shall thy light rise in obscurity thy darkness be as the noonday. The Lord’s going to guide you continually. Verse 11, satisfy thy soul and drought, make fat thy bones.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:41:13 And I love this image. Thou shall be like a watered garden and like a spring of water whose waters fail not. Wow. I don’t know what image you brethren get, but that is incredible. A watered garden. And then verse 12, they that shall be of thee shall build up the old waste places. You’re going to raise up the foundation of many generations. You’re going to be called the repair of the breach, the restore of past to dwell in.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:41:37 So, we have how not to fast, how to fast and the blessings from fasting all laid out in beautiful, I actually think, relatively clear language about how I can change and be better to fast and to receive these blessings. But those blessings are phenomenal.

Hank Smith: 00:41:56 Fantastic. Ross, I’ve been using this tool that I use. I go to biblehub.com totally free.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:42:02 Yeah, beautiful Bible hub. Great.

Hank Smith: 00:42:04 And you can just click verse by verse and you can see, oh that’s what that means. Oh, that’s what that means. Just a little bit of a different translation can help out quite a bit. I love Isaiah 58 verse 11. If you fast the way the Lord is asking you to fast, he’ll satisfy your soul, not your body. He’ll satisfy your soul. And that ties directly to me to Enos my soul hungered, my body hungered a little bit, but my soul was hungry. I needed my soul satisfied more than I needed my stomach.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:42:35 When you think about the depression and anxiety, and I’m not minimizing or trivializing anybody going through those kinds of things, but to me, like I said to frame Isaiah 58, it’s an underutilized tool. Verse 11, satisfy your soul in drought. If you talk to somebody who’s involved feeling depressed or anxious, they feel like it’s a drought. They literally feel like I’m famished, I’m in a drought. Here’s a tool, here’s a way that we can tap in. And I can just testify that it’s true that it is an incredible way to connect. And like we talked about earlier, does it take some effort? Yeah. And are you going to get some hunger pangs? The answer is yes. Yeah, you are.

John Bytheway: 00:43:21 Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:43:24 You are.

Hank Smith: 00:43:24 Guaranteed.

Hank Smith: 00:43:25 And that’s okay. That’s okay. There’s a talk linked to in the Come, Follow Me manual. It’s from Henry B. Eyring, April 2015 general conference called Is Not This The Fast That I Have Chosen. It’d be a great thing to listen to this week as we’re studying these sections. He quotes all of Isaiah 58 and now we have here an extra tool. We talked about Ross, all the tools we have. Here, we have a prophet, seer and revelator.

Hank Smith: 00:43:50 He says, “So, the Lord has given us a simple commandment with a marvelous promise in the church today. We are offered the opportunity to fast once a month and give a generous fast offering through our bishop or branch president for the benefit of the poor and the needy. Some of what you give will be used to help those around you, perhaps someone in your own family. The Lord’s servants will pray and fast for the revelation to know whom to help and what help to give that which is not needed to help the people in your local church unit will become available to bless other church members across the world who are in need.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:25 And then he quotes Spencer W. Kimball who wrote, “Rich promises are made by the Lord to those who fast and assist the needy.” Notice how those are connected, again, John fasting and blessing the needy. “Inspiration and spiritual guidance will come with righteousness and closeness to our Heavenly Father. To omit, to do this righteous act of fasting would deprive us of these blessings.”

Hank Smith: 00:44:52 And it’s a hard thing, especially maybe for a teenager or a young person listening. It’s a difficult thing. But give it a try. Give it a try. Move forward. I know with my kids sometimes they don’t make it their full 24 hours or whatever they set out for, but I tell them the Lord loves effort. Keep going. The Lord loves when we’re trying our best. And then to offer something to the poor as a teenager, to put a little money in the envelope and hand that over and say, this offering is for the poor.

Hank Smith: 00:45:20 There’s something cleansing about that act to me that the Lord is offering here. It blesses the giver as much as it does the receiver.

John Bytheway: 00:45:28 Hank, let’s talk about that for a second. Let’s say you’re a mom and dad with small children. I’d love to hear what you do and what you both have done. How do you try to explain fasting to a young mind and a small stomach?

Hank Smith: 00:45:43 Young mind and a small stomach? I love that. John. I think you and I did followHIM Favorites on this before. And I remember sitting down and talking with my teenagers at least about what it feels like to be hungry and that being in the blessed situation we’re in, we just don’t have that feeling very often. Just it’s not something that you and I struggle with, but people all over this planet hunger, millions of people hunger. And for just a moment we get to put ourselves in that position and know what that feels like.

Hank Smith: 00:46:13 And when you know what it feels like, you long to help someone who feels in that position. So, for me, one of those teaching moments is the Lord is giving us an opportunity to be like him, to feel the pains and sufferings of other people and that like him automatically makes us want to reach out to help.

John Bytheway: 00:46:33 I’ve tried and I think I like yours better, Hank, but just to say that part of the challenge of life is to kind of get our spirits to be in charge of our bodies instead of the other way around. Like Jesus says that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. And this is one of those times when we are seeing if our spirit can be in charge and disciplined of when we’re going to satisfy our hunger.

Hank Smith: 00:46:56 Practicing self-control, right? Gives us a chance to practice.

John Bytheway: 00:47:00 And see if our spirit can be strong here. I was curious to how explain that to kids because that can be hard. I’m so proud of them when they try so hard. But boy do they get hungry towards Sunday afternoon. And I think another thing that helps us is, and maybe we’ll be talking about this Ross, is when there’s someone that in need in the ward or an extended family member that’s having a trial or a health problem or something that we try to focus on them. When we start to focus on our own hunger, we say no, I’m trying to ask the Lord to help this other person over here. Maybe you guys have some thoughts on that.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:47:38 Well one of the things I would add would be having nine children and going through this is they have to see you and your spouse doing it and doing it with joy. In fact, I like this in a classroom. I like in a classroom where kind of application questions organically come up because of how you’ve set the stage. And I think when me and my wife are fasting and joyful about it and we get to talk about, John, what you just talked about, sister so and so is sick and we’re so grateful now that we can fast. And they’re like, well, can we fast?

Hank Smith: 00:48:15 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:48:16 Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:48:17 The way you talk about it. Yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:18 Let’s go without breakfast today. Let’s try that. It’s going to be a little hard. I think number one, you have to model not only in that you do it, but you remember that talk, I’m trying to remember Elder Holland talked about. It can’t just be the obligatory kind of drudgery, I’m going without two meals. I think you have to be able to say, man, we’re going to read Isaiah 58. I need to talk to you guys about some of these blessings. And I am so excited to fast. And they’re like, what? You’re a weirdo. No, this is great.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:48:49 And do you guys remember this talk? This is an old one 1928 Melvin J. Ballard. And he gave this talk, I think, at the assembly hall.

Hank Smith: 00:48:59 Only John was alive for that one. John, do you?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:03 Well no. Brigham Young signed my mission call, so I think I’m older than John.

Hank Smith: 00:49:06 Okay, Both of you.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:08 I wasn’t there for this one. I would think I was outside. But Melvin J Ballard talked about you and it. And he said you is your spirit and it is your body. And when you fast you get to tell it what’s going on. And that’s one of the things I explain. I go, what a great opportunity. So, when you get that hunger pang, that’s awesome. And they’re like, what? I said no, you then tell it what’s up. And I go, by the way, every single time you plan on fasting, something will come up, you’re going to get a headache or there’s going to be a wedding reception that night and there’s going to be that great cake. There’s going to always be something that comes up.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:49:48 But this is where you, your real person, your spirit tells it what’s happening. And I love that idea. I love that concept and that again, I got that idea from Melvin J. Ballard, but I love that.

John Bytheway: 00:50:04 1928.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:50:04 I think it’s 1928. Yeah. There’s something about fasting, spiritual, it’s physical, it’s social. We go to a fast and testimony meeting. I mean ideally if everyone came to that meeting fasting, like John said, we’re fasting for the Smith family or we’re fasting for so and so. Man, there’s just something that ties you, that binds you in this covenant relationship with God and with others that creates these promises that come to pass. And so, it’s true. I mean what Isaiah’s telling us is true about this fasting.

Hank Smith: 00:50:36 Beautiful.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:50:38 So, that’s my fasting piece of Isaiah 58. And I challenge my students to kind of go out and practice and then to follow up. And it’s incredible the witnesses, the testimonies. And for a lot of these people, and I know you guys teach the same age, I do 18 to say 30 year olds, for some of them it’s the first time they’ve ever fasted, really fasted. It’s for some of them, if you’ll invite them and kind of talk about this and they do it, they’re always amazed at the connection they felt and that there’s this kind of feeling of accomplishment where I went 24 hours without food or drink. That’s cool. And I connected with God in a different way. And I had some hunger pains. It wasn’t easy. It’s okay. That’s good. Good for you.

Hank Smith: 00:51:22 It’s okay. You’re going to eat again, I promise.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:51:25 You’re going to. We eat every meal like it’s our last. That’s our motto.

John Bytheway: 00:51:30 You know that first 10 there, there it is again, connecting it to the poor. If thou draw out the soul to the hungry, I’m fasting, I’m the hungry one. No, this is talking about something about fasting helps the hungry and satisfy the afflicted soul. And, man, I can’t stop reading this one then shall thy light rise in obscurity and thy darkness be as the noon day. A little parallelism there but I love how Jesus not only said I am the light of the world, but he said, ye are the light of the world. Our light can rise. Like you said Ross, countenance stuff witness for them or against them. It’s interesting, your light, you become lighter somehow.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:52:17 That’s right. I think it’s an interesting thing. You remember in Alma 32:3 when the people are criticized and they say you’re going to be like dross, you remember that, Alma 32:3, you’re going to be like dross. And then, kind of John, this is exactly to your point. He then says in Alma 34, so Amulek is talking, he says, now behold, I’m in verse 28, my beloved brethren, I say to you, do not suppose that this is all, for after you have done all these things, if you turn away the needy and the naked and visit not the sick and afflicted and impart of your substance if you have to those who stand in need, I say to you, if you do not any of these things, now notice what he connects it to. Behold your prayer is vain and availeth you nothing and you are as hypocrites who deny the faith.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:53:06 So your connection with God is directly related to how we take care of the needy. And then the next verse, verse 29, therefore if you do not remember to be charitable, you are as dross. So, I love how the book end. You’re dross because you guys are poor. And then Amulek turns it on its head and says, No actually let me give you really what dross is. You don’t take care of the poor and the needy, you’re dross.

John Bytheway: 00:53:28 I think that’s the only two times the word dross appears in the Book of Mormon, it’s like we’re dross. Look at the coarseness of our apparel. Or they were esteemed as dross. I think not dross because you’re poor, you’re dross when you neglect the poor, right?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:53:40 Exactly right. And it is the only two times, Alma 32 verse 3 and Alma 34:29 is the only time the word dross is used. That’s the Rameumpton group. So, again, a little story, if it’s okay, I got my degree in finance at BYU. My first job was in Houston, Texas. Worked in a big office building and I got an assignment to go see an executive at Phillips Petroleum. It was a big oil company back in the day. And I was super nervous. I mean, I was again, fresh out of BYU, probably three weeks in my job. You had to have a key to get on this particular floor. It was super high security.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:17 And this guy had this huge office overlooking Houston. Gorgeous View. And I walked in there and he could kind of tell I was trembling like Sebastian before King Triton. Thanks for laughing at that John. Anyway, that guy says to me, he says, “Where’d you go to school?” And I said, “BYU.” And he goes, “Do you know Dallin Oaks?” Well, I know who Elder Oaks is but I personally don’t know him. He goes, “Dallin Oaks is the greatest man I’ve ever met.” I said, “What was your interaction with Elder Oaks?”

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:54:55 So, he proceeds to tell me he was on some horseback ride. I don’t remember all the details. So, I leave his meeting and the guy, we didn’t even talk about much except Dallin H. Oaks. We leave the meeting, I go back to my office and I think I should tell Elder Oaks that. So, I called the church office building with the dialup phone and I get ahold of the secretary and I said who I was and could I talk to Elder Oaks?

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:55:20 She’s like, “Elder Oaks is in a meeting.” And I said, “Well, let me tell you what just happened.” So I explained to the secretary, she goes, “Oh, Elder Oaks will want to know about that. Let me get your information.” So I don’t hear anything. But two days later I get a package from the Office of the Quorum of the Twelve.

Hank Smith: 00:55:33 No way.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:55:35 And in it is a Book of Mormon. And on the inside he write, a little note from Elder Oaks. Dear Brother Baron, please deliver this book on my behalf to this man. And on the inside cover was Elder Oaks’ testimony, which I promptly made a copy of and is in my file right now. Elder Oaks probably doesn’t know that, but I did that. So anyway, I went and delivered the book to this man and he cried. And I think verse 10, and the other Isaiah verse about the countenance like Elder Oaks’ reflected light because he was a disciple of Jesus Christ. He reflected that light. That man knew it and he felt that power and I was able to give Him a copy of the Book of Mormon and have that experience.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:56:21 Again, going back to this idea of countenance and light that we get from connecting with the Lord, powerful.

Hank Smith: 00:56:28 That is beautiful. For anyone still on the fence about fasting, because I know this is one of the more difficult ones, especially for young people. You remember second Nephi 26 verse 24, “The Lord doeth not anything, save it be for the benefit of the world, for he loveth the world.” So remember, he loves you. He would not ask you to do this if it wasn’t for your benefit. So, trust him. Trust the words we’ve been looking at here in Isaiah 58. And maybe for the first time, like Ross said, maybe for the first time, offer up a fast to the Lord. Try him out. What did the Savior say? If any man will do his will, he’ll know. He was pretty confident in his doctrine.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:08 Amen. If you don’t mind if we could just look at these two verses on the Sabbath. I know that Hank, I know you’ve been to the Holy Land many times, and I know John, you’ve been right?

John Bytheway: 00:57:19 Yes.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:20 And who is the brother Krister Stendahl, who talked about holy envy, meaning we look at another religious group or maybe even another organization and we have appropriate envy towards some particular practice they have. And I’d love to take anybody to the Western Wall at Jerusalem on a Friday afternoon slash evening to have them watch …

Hank Smith: 00:57:45 Bring in the Sabbath, yeah.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:57:48 … and literally, and I think Latter-day Saints and others who are listening non-Latter-day Saints might not fully understand. They truly call the Sabbath a delight. In other words, their attitude, their heart, their focus, their singleness is this is the greatest day of the week without question. And they come in their best outfits and they come dancing and singing and there’s a light in their eyes because it’s the Sabbath. This is the Sabbath. And I think sometimes Latter-day Saints are like, oh, tomorrow’s the Sabbath. We got to get to Walmart to get our five gallons of ice cream. And to watch to have that holy envy.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:58:35 Now I realize also that there are some downsides to some of the way the Sabbath is kept and some of the strictness. But I think the attitude, that’s what I want to focus on, because Isaiah here is talking about, in verse 13, call the Sabbath a delight, the holy of the Lord, honorable honor Him. So, this, again, I think God is giving us tools. Tools to overcome the world. Tools to overcome the kind of the influence. This flood, the tsunami of information overload of social network and comparison. Connect with me, get vertical. You got to go vertical.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:18 And the way we get vertical, we’re fasting and we’re calling the Sabbath a delight. We’re going to honor Him. And then he gives promises. The promises in verse 14, that President Nelson as the president of the Quorum of the Twelve, talked about. Number one, you’re going to delight yourself on the Lord. Number two, you’re going to ride upon the high places of the earth. And number three, you will be fed with the heritage of Jacob.

Dr. Ross Baron: 00:59:42 Oh my word. So, from the Sabbath day, so, I honor the Sabbath. God honors me. I delight myself and him the high places of the earth for me, that’s the temple. That’s the temple. We’re going to ride upon the high places of the earth. And what’s the heritage of Jacob? Well, those are the promises of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. These are all the promise. That’s the heritage of Jacob. I get priesthood, I get the gospel, I get celestial marriage. I get the redemption, the ministry, the privilege now of serving. This is what I want in my life. It’s what I want for my family.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:00:21 And again, we have these two small and simple things, Alma, 37:6 and 7, D&C 64:33 out of small things proceeded that, which is great. We’re going to fast. We’re going to call the Sabbath a delight. Wow. The multitude of promises. It’s just overwhelming.

Hank Smith: 01:00:38 It’s so fascinating to me that to the natural man, these are probably two of the most difficult things to do.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:00:44 That’s right. That’s right. Great insight. Yep.

Hank Smith: 01:00:47 Take away a full day that I could be using to do my things or to take away food that I could be eating. This is where you tame the natural man is in these two commandments and others of course. But in these two commandments, you can really, like you said, John, have your spirit be in control of your body.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:01:06 Love that. And I love the idea of it 100% in this time maybe not so much 60, 75 years ago, but it separates us from the world and it separates us. And it’s good, right, we want to be in, but not of. And somebody might ask you, well, how am I in but not of? And one of my responses is fasting and Sabbath day observance. That’s how you’re in and not of. That’s one way. That’s correct. That’s true. It makes you different. And I love this idea and I love how President Nelson said, I got rid of the lists, remember this, of all the dos and don’ts because it’s a sign. It’s a sign between me and God of how I’m going to keep that covenant. And he goes, that guided then all my decisions. What sign do I want to show God that this day is different?

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:01:59 I love that. That becomes principle based. And then the Hank Smith family, the John Bytheway family, the Ross Barron family, we’re going to have to organize ourselves and determine how that’s going to work for us. And I’m not going to judge you. I’m just going to have to say, am I calling the Sabbath a delight and how am I doing this? And I want those blessings. I want to ride upon the high place of the earth. I want the heritage of Jacob and I want to delight myself in the Lord.

Hank Smith: 01:02:23 Do I trust? Do I believe? I want those things?

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:02:26 Exactly. Beautiful.

John Bytheway: 01:02:29 I have something that Brother Truman G. Madsen wrote in his book called The Radiant Life. This is on page 72. “First, as I’ve indicated, they see the Sabbath as a sanctuary in time. Now it’s true, they have strict requirements. And even now in Israel, there are hospitals which are so prepared, organized, and planned that they keep the Sabbath. If you care enough, it can be done. But all that discipline, all that thou shalt not is seen as an instrument to joy, a disciplined joy indeed but nevertheless, joy and celebration. Mind, says one of the great rabbis, is established by joy, by melancholy it is driven into exile. It is a sin according to Judaism, to be sad on the Sabbath. If that’s startling language, I will startle you further. The talented says that we will be held personally accountable for the judgment of God for every legitimate Sabbath pleasure we did not enjoy, we are commended to have joy to miss the joy is to miss it all.”

Hank Smith: 01:03:27 Wow.

Dr. Ross Baron: 01:03:27 Wow.

Hank Smith: 01:03:28 That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 01:03:29 So, when it says in verse 13, call the Sabbath a delight, that’s what reminded me of that idea of we’re going to be held accountable for the joy we don’t feel on the Sabbath. And maybe like fasting, It’s a change of our mindset toward it.

Hank Smith: 01:03:44 I think that’s the key.

John Bytheway: 01:03:47 Please join us for part two of this podcast.