John Bytheway: 00:00:03 Welcome to part two of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:00:07 As I’m looking in chapter seven, Jason, it looks to me like I’m going to need to know who people are and a little bit of history in order to understand this chapter, right?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:00:16 Yeah. This is definitely a chapter that helps to know some historical background. And unfortunately, what we know best about chapter seven is the gospel of Matthew, and so already we begin reading chapter seven with a very different historical context, a very different framework than the historical time of Isaiah himself. When we think of chapter seven, we think first and foremost of Isaiah 7:14, where there’s a prophecy about a son who will be born, whose name will be called Immanuel. And then we immediately think of the Gospel of Matthew 1:22-23 right after the description of the birth of Jesus, where Matthew says, “Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:01:18 And so because we are so much more familiar with Matthew than Isaiah, we go into Isaiah chapter seven, looking for Jesus. And of course, that is one of the beautiful ways that this chapter has echoed through time, and yet there is another possible reading of this.

Hank Smith: 00:01:37 There’s an initial meeting, right? A current day.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:01:39 Yeah. There’s an initial meeting.

John Bytheway: 00:01:41 The current event of it wouldn’t make any sense at all. If you’re like, “Hey, I know you’ve got a couple of guys trying to remove you as king, but don’t worry in 700 years, this will happen.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:01:56 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:01:57 It’s like, “What? That doesn’t help me a lot.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:02:00 Yeah, the other problem is this is described as a sign that God is giving to King Ahaz, and Ahaz refuses because he doesn’t want a sign. He doesn’t want to do what Isaiah’s telling him, but Isaiah gives him one anyway. The problem is, we stop reading the sign short. The sign continues for several more verses, so we’ll look at that in just a minute.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:02:22 But before we do, I think it’s worth noting, because we’re more familiar with Matthew, and in fact because we’re more familiar with The Book of Mormon, I think we often imagine Isaiah’s experience to be something like Nephi’s experience. Where in Nephi’s vision in First Nephi, right after Lehi has his vision and then Nephi asks for his own, Lehi has a vision of the tree and Nephi says, “I want a vision of the tree too, and to understand my father’s prophecies.” Nephi has his vision, and in Nephi’s vision, he actually sees a virgin holding a child in her arms, and the angel helps Nephi to understand what that means.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:03:00 So I think we sometimes transport that into our reading of Isaiah and imagine that Isaiah must have had the same experience, but there’s nothing really in this chapter to suggest that Isaiah had that experience. Isaiah absolutely saw the Lord. We just finished reading a whole chapter about Isaiah seeing the Lord. That’s without a doubt, but we don’t know that Isaiah had the exact same kind of experience that Nephi had.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:03:25 So we need to be careful how we read it for that reason. It’s just to give you an example of how other people read this passage, because again, we read it and we immediately think of Matthew and we think, “Who else could this possibly be? A virgin shall bear a son and call his name Immanuel? Of course that’s Jesus.”

John Bytheway: 00:03:43 It’s a miraculous virgin birth, the way we think of it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:03:46 Yeah. To us, we think it couldn’t possibly be anybody else. But let me give you an example of how some other people thought about it. This example I’m about to share comes from a Christian author who is writing more than 50 years after Matthew, probably 70 to 80 years after Matthew. It’s a Christian named Justin Martyr. He didn’t go by that in his lifetime, he was later called Justin Martyr after his martyrdom, he just went by Justin. But Justin Martyr was a convert to Christianity. He ended up writing out a dialogue that he says he had with a Jew, a Jew named Tripho. So he describes this really lengthy dialogue he had with Tripho the Jew. He wrote this down right around maybe 155, so middle of the second century, 155 AD. In this dialogue, he quotes this passage from Isaiah to Tripho.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:04:44 He’s doing a little bit of Bible bashing. He quotes this passage at Tripho to say, “See, this is proof that Jesus is the Messiah.” Then Tripho retorted, “The quotation is not, ‘Behold a Virgin shall conceive and bear a son,’ but, ‘Behold, a young woman shall conceive and bear a son,’ and so forth as you quoted it.” Tripho continues, “Furthermore, the prophecy as a whole refers to King Hezekiah and it can be shown that the events described in the prophecy were fulfilled in him.” Here’s a Jew having a debate with the Christian and Justin Martyr the Christian says, “This passage is definitely about Jesus.” And Tripho the Jew responds and says, “No, it’s not. This passage is definitely about King Hezekiah who was King Ahaz’s son and says that all of it was fulfilled in him. So to somebody else writing not too long, within less than a century after Matthew, they were still reading this passage in a very different way.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:05:49 So I think it’s worth going back then and trying to make sense of what was going on in the time of Isaiah. Why did he deliver this prophecy and understand it on his terms first, and then look at how Matthew is using it. Because I think Matthew knows Isaiah pretty well. I don’t think he misread Isaiah. I think he’s doing something really special here. I’ll show you how that works, but let’s start with a little bit of background here. You’ve already covered in this podcast before the history of Israel up to this point, so you know that by the time of Isaiah, the Kingdom of Israel has fractured. There’s now a northern kingdom and a southern kingdom. That happened after Solomon’s death in 930. This is a couple hundred years after that now. There’s a Northern kingdom that is called Israel, still. Sometimes it’s also called the Kingdom of Ephraim, and Isaiah will use both of those terms to describe the northern kingdom. Then there’s the southern kingdom. It’s the Kingdom of Judah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:06:50 To the north, the ruler at the time of this chapter is a man named Pekah, who is the son of Remaliah. And to the south, the king is Ahaz. So Pekah, son of Remaliah is the king of the northern kingdom called Israel or Ephraim, and to the south is Ahaz. By the way, we know that Pekah son of Remaliah ruled in the northern kingdom from 735 to 732 BC, so that helps us really narrow down when this prophecy is taking place. We’re still about 10 years away from 722 when Assyria is going to come in, but Assyria is on the border and is causing trouble. That, in fact, leads to part of the history we’re going to see here.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:07:34 There’s one more player that I need to mention who’s significant in this chapter, that is the king of Syria, not to be confused with Assyria. Assyria is the major empire that’s coming in, but there’s a smaller kingdom that’s just called Syria in the location of the modern country of Syria, that also goes by the name Aram.

Hank Smith: 00:07:58 Aram?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:08:00 Yeah. In fact, it’s related to the word Aramaic. In fact, the modern language of Syriac is related to Aramaic and the king of the Kingdom of Syria or Aram is a king called Rezin.

John Bytheway: 00:08:19 Every violinist knows what that is.

Hank Smith: 00:08:23 So I’ve got three kings that I need to understand: southern kingdom.

John Bytheway: 00:08:27 That’s right.

Hank Smith: 00:08:27 His name is Ahaz. Thank you, John. His name is Ahaz. He’s the son of Jotham the son of Uzziah, and he’s the king of Judah. Then I’ve got another king, Pekah, the son of Remaliah. He’s the king of the northern kingdom of Israel. Then I’ve got this neighboring country with a king called Syria, not Assyria. His name is Rezin. I’ve got three characters here in verse one.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:08:51 That’s right.

John Bytheway: 00:08:51 Is it Peeka or Pekah?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:08:53 Pekah would be closer to the Hebrew.

John Bytheway: 00:08:57 That’s too bad. I want it to be Peeka.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:08:59 Like Pikachu?

John Bytheway: 00:09:01 Yeah, when I teach, I say, “Peeka had a son named Peeka-boo, and when he was born, he spent time in that Peeka-boo ICU.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:07 Okay.

John Bytheway: 00:09:10 That ruins my joke, so I want it to be Peeka.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:15 Right, so just to add to the confusion, remember that these countries also go by different names. So Syria is also called Aram, and that’s where Rezin rules and the northern Kingdom of Israel is also called Ephraim, and that’s where Pekah rules because all of those names will feature in this chapter.

John Bytheway: 00:09:34 Yeah. This is where I think my students get confused. First of all, we’ve got the Kingdom of Israel, not the House of Israel, not My People Israel, but the Kingdom of Israel is kind of in an apostate condition. So the context is so… And Ephraim, the tribe of Ephraim, is the dominant tribe in the northern kingdom. So sometimes Isaiah calls Israel Ephraim, right?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:09:59 Yes.

John Bytheway: 00:09:59 What I love here is in this chapter, it’s a good way to illustrate your key of understanding the geography and the place names, because he uses five different names to describe the same place. Israel, Samaria, the capital, Peeka… I mean, Pekah, son of Remaliah and Ephraim. So when I teach my students, I say, “If I say, News came out of 1600 Pennsylvania avenue, news came out of the Oval Office, news came out of the White House, news came out of Washington, DC, I’m talking about the same place.”

Hank Smith: 00:10:36 Just different names.

John Bytheway: 00:10:36 For them, they know that, but for us, we have to make ourselves a chart or something so we can understand that he’s referring to the same place when he uses all of those terms.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:10:48 Yes, absolutely. One more thing that we should know about the geography is the empire of Assyria that is coming in, they can’t come straight across the desert and the mountains to attack Judah. They have to follow the Fertile Crescent up above, and so on their way down to Judah, they would have to pass through the kingdom of Syria and the northern Kingdom of Israel. So Judah, the southern Kingdom, is strategically quite safe because Assyria has to make its way through two other kingdoms before it even gets to them. That also features in what’s just about to happen here.

Hank Smith: 00:11:34 So knowing a little bit of that geography, knowing these names, knowing these countries, now I can understand what’s happening.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:11:41 Yeah, so let’s start reading a little. Isaiah chapter seven, let me just start with verses two and three here. “And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz, son of Jotham, son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria,” not Assyria but Syria, “and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up towards Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it.”

Hank Smith: 00:12:06 It sounds like these two countries went against the smaller, the southern kingdom.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:12:10 Yeah, that’s right. So right away, it’s giving us some historical context, but we need to know who these people are and where they’re located and all that, to make sense of this historical context. If you want more historical context on this, the siege of Jerusalem where Pekah and Rezin go up against Jerusalem and do not prevail against it is described in Second Kings 16:5. This is history that’s already been covered on this podcast. And now we’re seeing it again in the context of Isaiah’s prophecies.

John Bytheway: 00:12:43 I’ve always had a question about the exact timing of the building of Hezekiah’s tunnel. Was it in anticipation of the Assyrian attack or was it just for any enemy? We’ve got to have a water supply in Jerusalem.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:12:59 Yes. The southern Kingdom of Judah is at war with the smaller neighboring kingdoms quite often, but the larger threat, the monumental threat, is this empire of Assyria that is much larger. So Hezekiah likely had all of those threats in his mind. Hezekiah, of course, is the son of a Ahaz, so that’s a little bit after the time that we’re talking about right here.

John Bytheway: 00:13:22 But I just have always wondered, did he build that because of Assyria specifically or because of it’s smart strategically to have a water supply that’s covered up that’s within the walls?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:13:36 We’re now seeing that in his father’s lifetime, there had been instances where siege had been laid to Jerusalem, so there was in their living historical memory, a need for access to water by the time of Hezekiah.

Hank Smith: 00:13:52 This is really helpful, Jason, because if I remember my Second Kings lesson, I know that Ahaz wasn’t overly interested in Jehovah, what Jehovah had to say.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:14:02 Yeah, Second Kings says he’s one of the wicked kings, that’s right. It tends to alternate: we get a righteous king and a wicked king, a righteous king and a wicked king. So Hezekiah will be a righteous king following Ahaz.

Hank Smith: 00:14:13 The son of Ahaz.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:14:15 That’s right. Let’s pick up in verse two. “And it was told in the house of David…” So once again, that’s the house of David, that’s referring to the southern Kingdom of Judah, to the king there, that’s King Ahaz. “… saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim.” So the country of Syria and the northern Kingdom of Israel called Ephraim have joined forces to come against the southern Kingdom of Judah.

Hank Smith: 00:14:43 Word got to the southern kingdom that these two countries are uniting against them. Is that kind of, “Whoa!”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:14:49 Yeah, he’s a little bit worried. It says, “And his heart was moved and the heart of his people as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind.” They’re shaking a little bit here.

John Bytheway: 00:15:00 Oh, I love. I’ve got “quaking aspens” in my margin here. They’re just, “Aah…”

Hank Smith: 00:15:05 So that makes them nervous.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:15:07 That’s right. To skip down a little bit, to get more of the history, then we’ll come and catch up with what Isaiah’s told to do, but skipping down to verse five and six, “Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee,” that is against the king, King Ahaz, “saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:15:40 So the plan, it seems, of these two kingdoms to the north, Israel and Aram or Syria, is to invade Judah, to depose Ahaz, to put in his place this person who otherwise we know nothing of, this is the only mention of him, this son of Tabeal, and put him in his place presumably with the assumption that this son of Tabeal I would be in alliance, then, with these two kingdoms to the north, with Israel and Aram or Syria.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:16:17 There’s a little bit of debate over what the purpose of this was. Some think it was to defend themselves against the threat of Syria. Others think it was to strengthen their trade relations, but whatever reason, Judah isn’t playing ball, so they’ve decided that they’re just going to come in, depose the king and put somebody else in his place who will be sympathetic to them. So that’s the context when all of this happens.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:16:50 Now Ahaz has his own plan. We see Ahaz enact this plan later on in Second Kings chapter 16. So I’ll read a passage from Second Kings 16 in just a minute here. But at this point in the history, this is only his plan. He hasn’t done this yet. So here we go. Here’s what he ends up doing in the future. Now he’s only planning it. This is Second Kings 16:7-8, “So Ahaz sent messengers to Tiglathpileser king of Assyria, saying, I am thy servant and thy son: come up, and save me out of the hand of the king of Syria, and out of the hand of the king of Israel, which rise up against me. And Ahaz took the silver and gold that was found in the house of the LORD, and in the treasures of the king’s house, and sent it for a present to the king of Assyria.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:17:40 That’s Ahaz’s plan. Ahaz’s plan is Assyria is still quite a distance from me. It has to make its way through these two kingdoms before it’s even a threat to me, but these kingdoms are a present threat to me, so I’m going to go to the empire of Assyria and make an alliance with him and pay him out of the temple funds and some of my own funds. That will persuade him to be on my side and come and take out these two kingdoms to my north.

Hank Smith: 00:18:09 But not us, right?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:18:11 But not us, presumably.

Hank Smith: 00:18:12 No, no. Okay.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:18:14 Yeah. That’s his plan. Now, Isaiah is told to go deliver to King Ahaz a message to tell him not to enact that plan. And now is where we’re going to back up to Isaiah 7:3 to see what Isaiah is commanded to do. So Isaiah 7:3 begins, “Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller’s field.” Not sure exactly where that is, but Isaiah’s being given very specific instructions here to know exactly where to go and find the king.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:18:55 This, by the way, also reveals a little more biographical information about Isaiah. Isaiah had access to the king. Not anybody could just walk up and talk to a king. So Isaiah perhaps is on the king’s court as a prophet for the house of David, so he has direct access to the king and is able to go up and have this conversation.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:19:19 So here’s what Isaiah is to say to the king, “And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted.” Remember, they’re already trembling like wind blowing trees. So, “… fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands…” Firebrand is just a piece of burning wood. I like the newer revised standard version translation of this, “… these two smoldering stumps of firebrands.” It continues on, “… for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah.” That’s Pekah.

Hank Smith: 00:19:58 So don’t be afraid of these two.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:20:00 That’s right. And I love the description of them as smoldering firebrands. They are dying out already. So Isaiah’s message is, “These guys are not going to be around much longer, they’re already fizzling out. You don’t need to worry about them. This is not what you should be worried about.” So Isaiah’s message is, “Don’t do anything about this.” In fact, he gives him a specific timeframe in verse eight, “… and within threescore and five years shall Ephraim be broken, that it be not a people.” That’s a prophecy of what’s going to happen in 7:22. The entire northern kingdom of Israel is going to be completely gone. It won’t be a people.

Hank Smith: 00:20:43 Okay. Israel will be destroyed. The northern kingdom will be scattered.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:20:46 Yeah. That’s the message Isaiah delivers to Ahaz. Of course, that’s not enough. Ahaz is not willing to take Isaiah’s advice. Isaiah recognizes he’s going to need more, so we get more starting in verse 10. “Moreover the LORD spake unto Ahaz again.” So here’s Isaiah’s next message to Ahaz. One message wasn’t enough, so here’s the next one. “Ask thee a sign of the LORD thy God; ask it either in the depth, or in the height above. But Ahaz said, I will not ask, neither will I tempt the LORD.” Well, again, we know from Second Kings, it’s not that Ahaz is concerned about tempting the Lord, it’s that he doesn’t want the answer. He’s already decided what he’s going to do. We read about what he ends up doing in Second King 16, so he doesn’t want the answer.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:21:34 Isaiah’s now going to continue to give him the sign anyway, and here it is starting in Isaiah 7:14. “Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.” That’s where we usually stop, but that’s only the start of the sign. The sign continues. Here’s what it describes this Immanuel doing. “Butter and honey shall he eat…” Now, those are two luxury items that are not easily available if you are in a city under siege. So let’s continue here. “Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good.” That’s not the best translation there. Butter and honey in no way enables us to choose good and to refuse evil. So a better translation there is “by the time that he knows” to refuse the evil and choose the good, so, “Butter and honey shall he eat by the time that he knows to refuse the evil and choose the good.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:22:40 In other words, this child’s going to be born. By the time he’s old enough to know the difference between right and wrong, we might say by the time he’s reached the age of accountability, he’ll be able to eat butter and honey. The city will not be under siege. There will not be a war going on.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:22:58 It then continues, “For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good…” So again, before this child has reached the age of accountability, “… the land that thou abhorest shall be forsaken of both her kings.” There it is. That’s the sign, both her kings, two kings. It’s referring to those two countries to the north, to the kingdom of Israel ruled by Pekah, son of Remaliah, and to the kingdom of Syria or Aram, ruled by Rezin. It’s saying, “Those lands are going to be forsaken by those kings.” Those kings that you’re so worried about right now, they’re going to be gone before this child is even old enough to know the difference between right and wrong.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:23:39 Now, the sign continues with a warning. “The LORD shall bring upon thee, and upon thy people, and upon thy father’s house, days that have not come, from the days that Ephraim departed from Judah.” So things are going to get bad. Things are going to be worse than they’ve ever been since the time of 9:30, since the time after Solomon’s death when these two kingdoms separated, since Ephraim, the northern kingdom of Israel, departed from Judah. Then it says what is going to make things so bad “even the king of Assyria.” So point is once again, Ahaz, don’t do what you’re planning on doing. Don’t go and make an alliance with the king of Assyria. You’re inviting trouble, but of course he doesn’t listen.

John Bytheway: 00:24:26 These verses, if you read them too fast, you don’t realize 17 is kind of a prophecy. I tell my students, “Insert these words.” Now I could be in really big trouble for inserting words into the scriptures, but I have them insert in front of 17, “If you don’t listen to me, then the LORD shall bring upon thee and upon thy people and upon thy father’s house days that have not come.” Because this is what Isaiah’s saying, “If you don’t accept this sign, then this is what’s going to happen.” Is that fair?

Hank Smith: 00:24:56 Yeah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:24:57 If you move forward with your plan, yep.

John Bytheway: 00:24:59 Then, “The LORD will bring upon thee, and upon thy people, thy father’s house…”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:02 Yeah. And quite frequently, the Lord is definitely aware, perhaps even has made Isaiah aware, that the king will not listen. Nevertheless, the prophet still delivers the message so that future generations can learn from past generations’ mistakes.

Hank Smith: 00:25:21 It looks like the rest of the chapter is all that the king of Assyria is going to do. It sounds terrible.

John Bytheway: 00:25:27 The Assyrians were a brutal superpower, right?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:31 Absolutely.

John Bytheway: 00:25:32 Who else was called to go there and went west instead to Joppa?

Hank Smith: 00:25:36 Yeah, it sounds like Jonah.

John Bytheway: 00:25:39 Yeah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:39 Let’s talk a little about this sign then and how to make sense of this. If this is about somebody who’s going to be born and grow up and before they know good and evil, the problem that Ahaz is facing is going to be gone. What child is this who is born of a virgin in this time? How do we make sense of this?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:25:59 Well, the first thing that’s worth pointing out is that that comment that Tripho the Jew made to Justin where he said, “Actually, the verse doesn’t say ‘a virgin,’ it actually says a ‘young woman.'” There’s a reason for that. In Hebrew, the word that’s here translated as “the virgin” is “ha-alma.” The word “alma,” no relation to the Book of Mormon prophet Alma, for those who study Book of Mormon names suggests that comes from a different group. The Hebrew here “ha-alma” does simply mean “young woman.” Now people in that time may have assumed that if this is a young unmarried woman, of course she would be a virgin, but that would only be assumed. It’s not necessarily implied in the word. It’s also worth noting that it actually says “the” young woman. It has that “ha” at the beginning. It’s “ha-alma.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:26:52 It seems like Isaiah is pointing to a young woman that’s there that is known by the king, saying, “That young woman there, the young woman who you see right there, is going to bear a son and before that son is old enough to know a difference between right and wrong, these two kingdoms you’re worried about are going to be gone. So don’t worry about them.” So jumping forward hundreds of years now into the 200 BC, maybe even a little before that, the Hebrew is translated into Greek.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:27:22 There’s a Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible that’s made for all the Jews who are living outside of the land of Israel, in other parts. By this time, Alexander the Great has come in and has convinced everybody they should learn some Greek. So a lot of learned Jews who only know Greek, so the Hebrew Bible’s translated into Greek, and when it is, this passage “ha-alma” is translated as “hay-parthenos” which literally is “the virgin.” Again, it does have the definite article. So it seems to refer to somebody who’s known who is definitely there, but it does have that more specific meaning. It could just be assumed if this person is a young maiden who’s not yet married or was only recently married, that she’s a virgin. That could be the assumption.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:07 So Christians using the Greek version of the Old Testament, read this passage as “the virgin,” whereas those Jews who continue to use the Hebrew read “ha-alma” as “the young woman.” That was the debate that Justin was having with Tripho the Jew.

John Bytheway: 00:28:24 You’ve said this Greek translation, is that the Septuagint that we hear about?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:28 Yeah, it’s called that because there’s a tradition that 70 scholars all got together and translated it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:28:34 So in trying to figure out who this Immanuel is, it’s not really clear. Immanuel, meaning “God with us,” that is what Immanuel means. It could be a kingly title. It is the sort of royal title that could be given to somebody in the house of David, especially since God promised King David, that God would be with King David. So the title “God with us” is an appropriate term for somebody born to the house of David. Some have speculated that Immanuel might actually be Isaiah’s son, and Isaiah might have been pointing to Isaiah’s wife, referring to her as the young woman. The reason for that has to do with a parallel between Isaiah 7:14 and Isaiah 8:1-3, where we’re introduced to Isaiah’s second son Maher-shalal-hash-baz.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:29:32 Notice the parallel here. It’s really interesting. Isaiah 7:14 says, “Before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that thou abhorest shall be forsaken of both their kings,” referring to Immanuel. Then in Isaiah chapter 8:1-3, it introduces Maher-shalal-hash-baz. Then 8:4 says, “Before the child shall have knowledge to cry, My father, and my mother, the riches of Damascus and the spoil of Samaria shall be taken away before the king of Assyria.” So that parallel prophecy between Isaiah 7:16 and Isaiah 8:4 have led some to think, “Okay, maybe Immanuel is Maher-shalal-hash-baz. That’s a possibility, but that would take some other logical leaps. In particular, Immanuel is clearly part of the house of David. So then we would have to conclude that maybe Isaiah’s wife is part of the house of David and that lineage in order to make that connection.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:30:35 So I think we should be open to that as a possibility, but I think we should be hesitant to say that’s the only possible reading. As we know from reading that passage from Tripho, Tripho was convinced that this is a reference to Hezekiah. There’s some question about whether Immanuel could be he Hezekiah because of some of the dates of Hezekiah’s birth as given in Second Kings. But Second King’s dates can be a little bit fast and loose sometimes. So the answer is, we don’t know for certain who this Immanuel is, other than saying clearly it’s somebody in the original fulfillment of this prophecy clearly is intended for Ahaz, in Ahaz’s time and refers to a child that Ahaz would observe grow up so that he would know when this sign is fulfilled.

John Bytheway: 00:31:22 Yeah, for the first fulfillment. Elder Jeffrey R. Holland, he said about this, “There are plural or parallel elements to this prophecy as with so much of Isaiah’s writing. The most immediate meaning was probably focused on Isaiah’s wife, a pure and a good woman who brought forth a son about this time, the child becoming a type in shadow of the greater later fulfillment of that prophecy that would be realized in the birth of Jesus Christ. The symbolism and the dual prophecy acquires additional importance when we realize that Isaiah’s wife may have been of royal blood and therefore her son would’ve been royalty of the line of David. Here again, is a type a preconfiguration of the greater Immanuel, Jesus Christ the ultimate son of David, the royal king who would’ve been born of a literal virgin. Indeed, his title Immanuel would be carried forward to the latter days being applied to the Savior in section 128, verse 22 of the Doctrine and Covenants.” That’s from Elder Holland’s book Christ and the New Covenant on page 79.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:32:28 Very nice.

Hank Smith: 00:32:28 I want to hear what Matthew does with this.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:32:31 So this interpretation, I’m glad you brought up that quote from Elder Holland because this interpretation that I am sharing right now is not new. You can read about it in Elder Holland’s books, lots of books published on the writings of Isaiah available in Deseret Book from Donald Perry to Victor Ludlow. I’m not sure how Kerry Muhlestein deals with this passage. I know he’s recently published a book on Isaiah and he’ll be on this show soon, so he can share with you how he deals with it. But I know this interpretation that we’re looking at trying to understand Isaiah’s own time period, is one that’s been familiar for a while, but doesn’t seem to be as common knowledge in, say, a gospel doctrine class. I think knowing this context helps us to appreciate even more what Matthew does with this passage.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:33:21 Let’s talk about that now. This Immanuel and this prophecy about this sign is definitely related to a concern about the house of David. The prophecy is introduced in chapter 7:13 by saying, “Hear ye now, O house of David,” after it introduces this prophecy about Immanuel. It mentions Immanuel one more time in chapter eight, in chapter 8:8, where it’s talking about what the king of Assyria is going to do. It says, “And he,” referring to the king of Assyria, “shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.” So that, there, is addressed to Immanuel as if to a future king of Israel who’s going to be concerned about Assyria overflowing the land. So this is definitely a strong focus on kingship.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:34:18 So just to summarize real quick what we know about Immanuel from this passage in Isaiah, we know that the child Immanuel was born in Ahaz’s lifetime, that Immanuel’s mother was present or known to Ahaz, that the prophecy was for Ahaz and assumed that he would observe the boy Immanuel grow up, that the land of Judah in some sense belongs to Immanuel, as we just saw. The Immanuel, therefore, is a Davidic heir.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:34:47 So what’s going on in the gospel of Matthew, where he quotes this passage following his description of Jesus’ birth and says that it’s fulfilled. Remember way back at the beginning of our podcast here today, we talked about how the word “fulfillment” has a broad range of meanings. Sometimes we assume that the only meaning of fulfillment of prophecy is when a prophet in the past has seen something happen, and that thing happens exactly in that way, and that is fulfillment. Well, that is a type of fulfillment, but it is not the only type.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:35:24 Another use of the term “fulfilled” can mean “to fill out a prophecy, to more fully accomplish or complete a prophecy.” I think that is how Matthew is using the term “fulfilled.” He is suggesting that as much as a past Davidic king may have been an initial or partial fulfillment of that prophecy from Isaiah, Jesus fills out that prophecy more fully. He fulfills it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:35:54 Here’s why I think that. There’s at least two different ways we can think about what Matthew’s doing. One possibility is that Matthew believes that Isaiah seven has nothing to do with king Ahaz and was a direct foretelling of Jesus’ birth. I say that’s a possibility because you can see some of that happening in Jewish writings in the same time period as the gospel of Matthew, in the Dead Sea Scrolls. The Dead Sea Scrolls have a style of writing called a Pesher or Pesherim. And a Pesher, which literally is translated as something like “it is interpreted,” that’s how it’s often translated. It’ll give a quotation of a prophecy and said, “it is interpreted,” and then give the interpretation. The Dead Sea Scrolls tend to interpret everything as dealing with the founder of the Dead Sea Scroll community, somebody they call the Teacher of Righteousness, and Rome is often the bad guy.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:36:44 So that’s a possibility, but I’m not convinced. I think Matthew’s familiar with Isaiah. I think he knows what was going on in the Old Testament. The reason I think this is because this is not the only time in Matthew that he takes a passage that was about something else and makes it about Jesus.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:37:05 Let me give you one other example. Throughout Matthew one and two, there are a number of these fulfillment passages. In Matthew chapter two, he has already described how Jesus’s family takes him and flees after his birth to escape Herod. Herod the Great is killing all the infants in Bethlehem. So he takes them and flees to Egypt. Then it talks about them returning from Egypt and Matthew says this. So this is Matthew 2:15. Matthew describes how they stayed in Egypt “until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.” Now we know what prophecy that is, that comes from Hosea. That’s Hosea chapter 11.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:37:51 So here’s the passage now in Hosea, “When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.” Now, in the context of Hosea, this prophecy “Out of Egypt, I have called my son,” refers to the people of Israel as if God’s son, and God calling them out of Egypt is a description of the Exodus led by Moses and then by Joshua into the promised land. In fact, we know that’s what it’s talking about because we can continue reading here. It describes how Israel does, when God calls them out of Egypt as his son, they don’t follow God. In verse two, it continues on and describes how they sacrificed unto the Baalim and burned incense to graven images. So Israel doesn’t do too well when they’re called out of Egypt.

Hank Smith: 00:38:46 It’s pretty clear who Hosea was talking about.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:38:49 Absolutely. So why in the world would Matthew say Jesus fulfills this? Because Jesus does. Because Jesus fulfills this in a way that Israel could not. Israel was called out of Egypt by God, as God’s son, and yet they turned away, they worshiped the Baalim and false Gods, false idols.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:39:13 Jesus, however, called out of Egypt also spends some time in a wilderness, also is tempted in that wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights, not 40 years, and does not give in to temptation after that time in the wilderness. Jesus fulfills this call to God’s son in a way that Israel never could, and does it for Israel. So all of the covenant promises that God made with Israel are more fully completed, are fulfilled in the ministry of Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:39:52 That’s fantastic. The Savior more fully fulfills these prophecies by the way he lives than those who the original prophecy was probably about.

John Bytheway: 00:40:02 Broader? Yeah. It’s a broader way to apply that idea of fulfilling. I really like what you’ve done with that, Jason. It completes it. It is another dimension of it.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:40:14 Yeah. So let’s now take that idea and go back to the passage in Isaiah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:40:19 Matthew quotes that passage after describing Jesus’s birth. As we’ve seen, that passage has something to do with Davidic kingship, with the concern that Ahaz would be replaced on the throne with another king. Ahaz was a descendant of King David. He is a preservation of the Davidic line. Remember, by now your audience, if they’re staying tuned and being faithful and listening every week, they know back in Second Samuel chapter seven, God made a promise to David. Second Samuel 7:16, God said to David in reference to his descendants, “Thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne will be established for ever.” There’s also in Isaiah seven, a concern that the Davidic line is going to be interrupted, that the king is going to be deposed. And what’s going to happen to the Davidic line? Well, Isaiah makes a promise that the Davidic line will continue through Immanuel and that Assyria or Syria or Israel will not be able to depose the king.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:41:30 Now, is Matthew aware of this context? Is Matthew aware that Isaiah is all about this question of kingship? I think he is. If we were to take a look at the gospel of Matthew, notice how the gospel of Matthew begins. Chapter one, verse one, “The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David.” Right away, the first figure from the Old Testament that Matthew mentions: the son of David. When Matthew gives his lengthy genealogy, there are a whole lot of kings in that genealogy. Christ is a descended from the Davidic line. There are lots of kings in that genealogy. Yet out of that whole genealogy, only one of them is named as king. Any guesses who that is? It’s king David, that’s in verse six, “and Jesse begat David the king, and David the king begat Solomon.” When Joseph is mentioned in Matthew chapter 1:20, it’s Joseph, thou son of David, as the angel addresses him later on in beginning of chapter two when the wisemen come, when the magi come, “Where is he that is born king of the Jews?”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:42:41 So Matthew is absolutely aware that this is all about kingship, and so it shouldn’t surprise us at all that when Matthew turns to Isaiah, he is reading this as being about kingship and seeing Jesus as more fully fulfilling this promise of kingship.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:42:58 Now I mentioned before that Davidic promise that King David’s throne would continue. Of course we know, and Matthew was well aware, that didn’t happen. Long after Assyria when the Babylonian empire comes along, they conquer the southern kingdom of Judah. They take Judah captive into Babylon. They take them into exile. That is the last time there is a king of David’s lineage on the throne, but notice how Matthew ends his description of the genealogy. He summarizes it like this. “So all the generations from Abraham to David are 14 generations.” There’s David again, Abraham to David. “And from David to the carrying away into Babylon are 14 generations.” So now Matthew’s readers are thinking, “Oh, Babylon? That’s when we lost Davidic kingship.” And here’s the final part, “And from the carrying away into Babylon unto Christ are 14 generations.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:44:03 He is setting up his readers to understand that Christ is the continuation of this Davidic promise, a promise that could never be fully accomplished by the kings, a promise of an eternal Davidic throne. Matthew was saying his readers have to understand that Jesus is the one who fully accomplishes that, so it should not be a surprise to us at all that Matthew chooses this passage from Isaiah chapter 7:14, a passage about the preservation of the Davidic line through a son named Immanuel, God with us, as a perfect passage to describe Jesus and to show how Jesus more fully accomplishes all the promises God made to David. Of course, he’s also showing that Jesus accomplished all the promises God made to Abraham and to Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:44:55 I love this, Jason. I love, one, we’ve taken it in its original context and that’s crucial. We haven’t just jumped straight to future, just jumping straight to, “Oh, this is about Jesus.”

Hank Smith: 00:45:07 Two, you’ve shown us that Matthew isn’t proof texting. He’s actually doing something much more rich than just grabbing a verse saying, “This is about Jesus.” He’s saying, “Look, God remembers his promise all the way back from Second Samuel seven, and I’m going to use this Isaiah prophecy to show you that he remembers that promise.”

Hank Smith: 00:45:26 So we’ve used the tools you’ve given us and it’s become much more nuanced and beautiful. I love the idea that Matthew knows exactly what he’s doing. He’s not proof texting. He’s not just grabbing a verse saying, “This is about Jesus.” He’s using this… Man, that’s just really well done. I really like this idea of Jesus more fully fulfills these. That’s something I hadn’t thought of before.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:45:48 Yeah, or fills them out, or accomplishes them.

Hank Smith: 00:45:52 In a way that the original person could not.

John Bytheway: 00:45:54 One of the things that I’ve read into that Matthew verse about the spelling of the name David, the dalith-vav-dalith, and the number value of that being 14, is that Matthew was fond of 14. It’s kind of fun if you’ve ever been to the Church of the Nativity to go down below in the traditional spot that marks the spot of Jesus’ birth is marked with a 14-pointed star. I think those are all trying to say, “Look, son of David.” Which it sounds like what Matthew’s trying to do, “Son of David. See this?”

John Bytheway: 00:46:28 You mentioned Jay and Donald Perry. They wrote this book with Tina Peterson called Understanding Isaiah. I liked it because it helped me make sense of it. Isaiah seven is the Immanuel prophecy. That Isaiah eight is the first fulfillment Maher-shalal-hash-baz, the son. And that Isaiah nine is the Jesus fulfillment, “For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given.” There’s three chapters in a row that have three birth prophecies in a row. So to me, I kind of liked that the Immanuel prophecy, the first fulfillment and then the ultimate fulfillment.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:47:06 I think that’s a really nice way of reading it from our perspective. Of course, a Jew like Justin’s friend Tripho would see even chapter nine as referring to the future Israelite king. All of those chapters seem to address events happening at the time of this Syrio-Ephraimite, so they would see even the one who is described as a wonderful counselor and mighty of God as being theophoric titles given to this great Israelite king who would come along.

John Bytheway: 00:47:36 Or they might say that the Jesus that came, it sounds like he’s describing a political Messiah, not just a spiritual Messiah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:47:45 I think it’s interesting, that passage in chapter nine, this is Isaiah 9:6, “Unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, the government shall be upon his shoulders.” And I’m quoting it from memory because of Handel’s Messiah. We know Handel’s Messiah so well that we read this and we think, “Who could this possibly refer to other than Jesus?”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:48:07 It’s interesting when we look at things that early Christians wrote about this passage, they thought they had to convince people that it was about Jesus because at the time nobody read that and assumed it was. In fact, that passage about unto us a child is born, that’s not cited anywhere in the New Testament is being about Jesus. It’s only after New Testament times that some Christians read that and say, “Oh, that’s about Jesus.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:48:34 Just to give you an example, there’s a Christian named Tertullian who’s writing at the end of the second century, beginning of the third century. He’s writing a work against another Christian named Marcion. This is in his work against Marcion and book three chapter 19, where he quotes this passage. And he says, “Isaiah says, ‘because to us a child is born.'” Then he says, “What is new in this unless he is speaking of the son of God?” Tertullian is trying to be persuasive here and say, “Why would that be significant to say a child is born unless it’s referring to a special child, therefore it must be Jesus.” Then he continues, “Unto us one is given whose government is placed upon his shoulder. Which of the Kings ever displays the sign of his dominion upon his shoulder and not rather a crown upon his head or a scepter in his hand or some mark of appropriate apparel? No, only the new king of the new ages, Jesus Christ, the king of new glory has lifted up upon his shoulder his own dominion and majesty, which is the cross, that from henceforth, as our previous prophecy stated, he did as the Lord reigned from the tree.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:49:49 So Tertullian sees in this prophecy, the government being upon his shoulder, not as metaphorical, as carrying the weight upon the shoulder, being him taking upon himself the government of the world, the government being upon his shoulder, the Kingdom of God upon his shoulder. But I think it’s interesting that he has to make an argument for this. He has to persuade early Christians that this passage is about Jesus because not everybody saw it that way, even in that period, even more than a hundred years after the gospel authors wrote their gospels.

Hank Smith: 00:50:23 You guys, this has been so helpful because in my mind, part of worshiping the Lord is worshiping the Lord with our mind, learning these small phrases and connections across to the New Testament, to the Old Testament. To me, this is part of my worship. However, I can see that someone would be like, “Thanks for all this information, you guys. What do I do with it?”

Hank Smith: 00:50:42 I wanted to read to you from a book of someone who I just simply adore. His name’s John Bytheway. John, this might embarrass you a little bit. This is in the book Isaiah for Airheads. There’s a little section that says, “How does this chapter help me today?” And about this chapter, John, you wrote… Let’s see if you can remember what you wrote. “I really doubt that the Lord wants us to study Isaiah so that we will know about Pekah or Damascus or the son of Remaliah. At the final judgment, I don’t think we will be quizzed on the geopolitical situation in the Middle East. For me, the greatest lesson in this chapter is the promise of Immanuel, the assurance that God is with us. I believe that this chapter is about the danger of pursuing foolish alliances instead of a relationship with the greatest ally of all.” John, this is really good. You’re doing a great job here.

Hank Smith: 00:51:32 “Isaiah was trying to tell Ahaz that it doesn’t matter if Syria is with you or Israel is with you. What matters is that God is with you.” That’s a wonderful application, John, from these chapters.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:51:44 I think, in fact, that is precisely the point that Matthew is trying to make. I mentioned that Matthew loves in his first two chapters to talk about fulfillment of prophecy. I think what he is doing is actually setting up his readers to constantly be looking for this throughout his gospel. But the very first fulfillment passage is this one that he quotes from Isaiah. He quotes it a little bit different from Isaiah because he gives us the interpretation of the name Immanuel. Isaiah doesn’t provide that for us, Matthew does. Matthew tells us, “Immanuel means God with us.” And who better to fulfill a name that means “God with us” than Jesus Christ?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:52:27 In fact, at the end of the gospel of Matthew, Matthew comes back to that idea. He relates the account of Jesus’s disciples gathering to meet Jesus now resurrected on a mountain in Galilee, then Jesus gives his final commission to the apostles there. And the final words he speaks to them in Matthew chapter 28:20 it’s Jesus telling his disciples what message to deliver as they go forth in his name. Jesus suggests to his disciples that they should teach them, those people they are teaching, “To observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.” Then Jesus says this, these are the final words of the gospel of Matthew, “And lo, I am with you always, even until the end of the world. Amen.” I mean, what a promise, and a promise derived from this prophecy given hundreds of years earlier by Isaiah to King Ahaz.

Hank Smith: 00:53:30 Oh, what a connection.

John Bytheway: 00:53:32 To think about every Sunday, hearing those wonderful young men say that they may always have his Spirit to be with them, every week. That’s the point. God is with us. He can be with us. That’s the promise of Immanuel.

Hank Smith: 00:53:51 The very first prophecy that Matthew says Jesus fulfilled more fully is this Isaiah prophecy, Immanuel, which it being interpreted is “God with us.” That’s Matthew 1:23. And Matthew finishes, I’ve never seen this before, Matthew 28, the last thing Jesus says, “I am with you always.” I mean, Jason, what a connection. Wow.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:54:15 I’m looking forward to the New Testament.

Hank Smith: 00:54:17 Yeah. Me too. We’re already looking, going, “Okay, what are we going to do? Who are we going to bring on our show?” Jason, you’ll be one of those. I wish we could keep going verse by verse, but I think we’ll have to do an extended version of our podcast. We still have Matthew chapter 9, 10, 11, and 12. Jason, what do you want us to see in these chapters?

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:54:36 Let me just summarize what’s going on here, then we can focus in on just a couple of parts to wrap things up today. Nine through 11 are continuing the prophecies that we’ve already been seeing. This is a continuation of the prophecies during the Syrio-Ephraimite War. Mixed in here are calls to repent with promises of a better future, with some rebukes. For instance, 9:1-7, that’s definitely promise of a better future followed immediately in chapter 9:8 all the way through 10:4 by a rebuke of Israel and Judah. And if you look at 10:1-2, we’ve circled back to the theme of rebuking Israel and Judah for their abuse of the poor. “Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed, and turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!” So once again, we get that time and again in Isaiah as a central rebuke of Israel and Judah.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:55:47 God says that Assyria is going to come upon Israel, and this is sometimes portrayed in Isaiah as a tool, Assyria’s portrayed as a tool that God is using to punish.

Hank Smith: 00:56:03 My students always laugh at that, by the way. They laugh at that always when I’m like, “God looks at Assyria and says, Tool.” I guess tool is a term they use to… It’s like an insult.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:56:16 I think it’s interesting that he uses them as a tool, but then God is also concerned that Assyria is going to boast in how they have been used as a tool. So in Isaiah’s 10:5-19, God then turns to rebuke Assyria. Look, for instance, at 10:15. This is one of the greatest rebukes of a tool. He says, “Shall the axe boast of itself against him that heweth therewith?” So is the ax going to turn around to the person using it and boast, “I’m the one doing all the work.” He continues on, “Or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it?” His point is, “No, Assyria. You have no grounds to boast. This is not your doing, I am allowing this to happen.”

Hank Smith: 00:57:07 Then if my hammer turned and talked to me, first of all, I’d be a little bit shocked. Second, if it was telling me how great it was, I’d say, “Well, watch how great you are without me.”

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:57:17 Yes. So God is putting Assyria in its place right here. After that, we get another promise of a better future in chapter 10:20-21. We get more about punishment by the hand of Assyria and how it’s part of God’s plan and will soon be over in chapter 10:24-25. Then it talks about how there will be peace, which is described very poetically in chapter 11:6-9. We get peace described as a time when a child can play on the hole of an asp.

John Bytheway: 00:57:55 The lion and the lamb lying down together.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:57:57 Or the wolf and the lamb, yeah, and the leopard with the kid in verse six. A promise that the end of all of this will be peace.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:58:08 Then chapter 12 is sort of a conclusion to the prophecy. So the prophecy sort of ends at the end of 11. Then chapter 12 is wrapping up everything that’s happened, acknowledging that all of this is the work of God and that thanks and praise are owed to God for his mercy, for his plan, for everything that God is doing to save his people, even though it might not seem like a lot of saving is going on. The preparation of this righteous remnant is for the sake of Israel.

Hank Smith: 00:58:41 So chapter 12 is God is so good to us in the good and the bad because all of it is meant to save us.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:58:47 Yeah. Even though these chapters nine through 11 are really a continuation of what happened back starting in chapter six, talking about these events during the Syrio-Ephraimite War war and Isaiah’s prophecies to the people then to warn them of what was coming and to encourage the righteous to have hope in a peaceful future, even though Assyria was bearing down on them and there was a threat of greater violence. Despite that context, once again, there are ways in which these words echo through time. I think it’s very easy to read ourselves into these chapters or to liken these chapters to our people, as Nephi would say.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:59:25 I’m thinking in particular of passages like chapter 11:11-12. Let me just read them real quick, “And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people…” There’s that mention of that righteous remnant again, “… the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.”

Hank Smith: 00:59:55 From everywhere, sounds like.

Dr. Jason Combs: 00:59:57 Yeah. “And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” I think just as Matthew read into these chapters and saw in them fulfillment of Jesus, or Jesus more fully fulfilling these events, I think we as Latter-day Saints with a command to go into the world and gather Israel can read into these passages a more full fulfillment in our own day.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:00:28 This of course has been one of the major focuses of President Nelson. He gave that wonderful talk back in October 2020. I’m thinking the 2020 talk, Let God Prevail. He says, “For centuries, prophets have foretold this gathering and it is happening right now as an essential prelude to the second coming of our Lord. It is the most important work in the world. This pre-millennial gathering is an individual saga of expanding faith and spiritual courage for millions of people. And as members of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints or Latter-day Covenant Israel, we have been charged to assist the Lord with this pivotal work.” I think a passage like this one in Isaiah is definitely one that will resonate with us as Latter-day Saints today, given our latter day responsibility to go into the world and gather Israel.

Hank Smith: 01:01:21 That’s fantastic. Reading verses like that can tell you why so many prophets today have said, prophets all through time have looked down to this day.

John Bytheway: 01:01:30 I like that we’re seeing kind of what we talked about setting up an ensign for the nation. Before, that was the Assyrian armies. Now, it’s the beginning of a latter-day gathering. It says in verse 10 that, “In that day, there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people.” Then in verse 12, “he shall set up an ensign for the nations.” So there’s that gathering. And notice, four corners of the earth. So the scattering is worldwide. They’re everywhere. Go bring them in.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:02:01 Yeah. In some ways we might think of that as the counterpart to the temple work we do today. Our temple work is part of binding up peoples across dispensations in preparation for the second coming of Jesus Christ. The scattering was influencing the nation. Scattering God’s chosen people throughout the world to be that leaven or that salt of the earth.

John Bytheway: 01:02:28 In my classes, I like to call it a fortunate scattering because it spread the blood of Israel everywhere, so now you’d be hard pressed to find anybody who isn’t house of Israel and how we’re going to go gather them in.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:02:40 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 01:02:41 That’s great, John. It’s like trying to find the yeast after the bread’s been cooked. It’s throughout the whole thing. You can’t pick it back out.

Hank Smith: 01:02:49 Isaiah concludes with chapter 12, Jason, which to me is one of the more beautiful chapters that we’re going to study this week. This chapter 12 is worth just reading out loud. “And in that day thou shalt say, O LORD, I will praise thee: though thou wast angry with me, thine anger is turned away, and thou comfortedst me. Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.” It’s very rare, right, Jason, that they leave Jehovah?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:03:24 Yeah, it is. Absolutely. Usually it’s capitalized, all caps LORD.

Hank Smith: 01:03:29 Yeah. In this one, it’s all caps JEHOVAH. Verse three, ” Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.” I mean, this is the pen of heaven. This is beautiful language. And in that day shall ye say, Praise the LORD, call upon his name, declare his doings among the people, make mention that his name is exalted. Sing unto the LORD; for he hath done excellent things: this is known in all the earth. Cry out and shout, thou inhabitant of Zion: for great is the Holy One of Israel in the midst of thee.” Wow. Those are some powerful six verses. What do you guys see there?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:04:07 I’m immediately thinking of what John pointed out earlier when we were discussing the passage of Isaiah six where Isaiah cries out, “Lord, how long?” And John pointed out that that is echoed in the words of Joseph Smith in Liberty jail, “Lord, how long?” And the words of others.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:04:25 I think in the moments of our trials, we feel that need to cry out, “Lord, how long?” It can seem as if the trials will never end. And yet the beautiful promise here is there will come a time when we will look back on those trials and they will seem but a moment, and we will be healed. We will be able to sing to God, “Thou comfortedst me.”

Hank Smith: 01:04:54 Jason, you mentioned the times of trial. I thought of this talk Mountains to Climb by President Henry B Eyring, “When hard trials come…” Notice he doesn’t say “if.” “When hard trials come, the faith to endure them well will be there. Built as you may now notice, but may not have at the time, that you acted on the pure love of Christ serving and forgiving others as the Savior would’ve done. You built a foundation of faith from loving as the Savior loved and serving for Him. Your faith in Him led to acts of charity that will bring you hope.” Then he adds this. “It is never too late to strengthen the foundation of faith.” That feels to me like Isaiah chapter 12.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:05:39 It makes me think of President Nelson’s recent talk where he gave us some visual aids where he walked down to the foundation of the Salt Lake Temple as it’s being strengthened.

Hank Smith: 01:05:49 He called on us to strengthen our own spiritual foundations. Jason, we’ve had a great day today, Isaiah chapters one through 12. How would you sum this up?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:05:58 If there’s anything that I want our listeners to know is, first of all, you can understand Isaiah. It is possible. You can do it. So do it, read Isaiah. When you do, read it for its beauty, its poetry. Read it for its witness to God’s work among his people. Read Isaiah for what it meant in Isaiah’s time and read Isaiah for what it means to you today. All the ways that Isaiah echoed through time. Or as Jesus Christ put it to the Nephites, read it knowing that all that Isaiah spake has been and shall be. So I think that’s the message.

Hank Smith: 01:06:42 Before we let you go, Jason, I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as both a Bible scholar and a believing Latter-day Saint. What’s that journey been like for you?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:06:55 I became a Bible scholar because I am a believing Latter-day Saint. Those two for me are one and the same. I am a convert to the church. I started attending church when I was 16 and was baptized when I was 18. Part of my conversion to the church was also a conversion to a love of learning. I had always struggled in school. I struggled throughout high school to the point where a friend asked me if I wanted to read the Book of Mormon and offered me a copy and I laughed. I said, “I don’t read my homework. What makes you think I’m going to read that book that is ridiculously long? I’m never going to read that.” She was quick on our feet. She said, “It’s okay, I’ve got a copy on cassette tape. You can listen to it.” So that was my introduction to the Book of Mormon was listening to not just any, it was the dramatized version on cassette tape, but eventually that turned into reading the Book of Mormon a little bit more, and then wanting to understand more and starting to read books written by modern day prophets and apostles.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:08:00 My friends who invited me to come to church also invited me to attend early morning seminary. They sort of tricked me. They said, “Hey, there’s this really cool thing that we all do every day. We get together about six o’clock and we read scriptures together and visit and hang out. It’s really cool.” I thought, “Yeah, that’s fine. I’m not doing anything at six o’clock at night, sign me up.” Then I got the official letter in the email saying, “Welcome to early morning seminary.”

Hank Smith: 01:08:24 Wait, what?

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:08:26 I immediately called up my friend, said, “There’s no way I am coming at six in the morning. I am sleeping at six in the morning.” They said, “Come for a week or two, if you don’t like it, you don’t have to come anymore.” So I went for the next two years. And it just so happened those two years of seminary were the Old Testament and the New Testament. So part of my conversion to the church was studying in depth the Old Testament and then the New Testament, and of course reading the Book of Mormon on my own.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:08:55 So out of my conversion grew this love of learning. I wanted to know more and more. On my mission I had heard that Joseph Smith studied Hebrew, so when I got back, I wanted to do that. As soon as I was at BYU and had the opportunity, I studied some Hebrew and I just fell in love with understanding the scriptures on their own terms as well as understanding how they apply to me today.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:09:21 So from there, all of my career path led me to this point of a profession where I study the scriptures all day and share what I learn, which is wonderful.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:09:33 I think sometimes there’s a misconception that all religious scholars out there are liberal atheists or something like that. But the truth is, overwhelmingly, those who went into studying the Bible began because they loved the Bible and are Christian. Most of them remain Christian.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:09:53 I remember talking about the sort of misconceptions of how things are outside of, say, a place like BYU. I remember when I showed up at Yale Divinity School, I was a little bit scared. I was a little bit timid. I assumed when I showed up, everybody would have an anti-Mormon pamphlet in their back pocket and be ready to whip it out at a moment’s notice and take me to task. That wasn’t the case at all. It was actually the exact opposite. The friends I met there of different faiths welcomed me in and were genuinely interested in understanding why I believed what I believed and how I worshiped and in sharing with me the beliefs that they had and the way they worshiped. It was such a wonderful experience and so enlightening.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:10:39 That’s not to say that I’ve never had struggles in my studies with my faith, but the times that I have, they have tended to be not because of something I’ve learned, but because of my disposition. I think that’s the best way of saying it. In other words, doctoral studies are difficult. They require a lot of effort from you and a lot of time. It is very easy to allow that effort and time to crowd out your own spiritual practices. When you are studying the Bible for a living, when you’re studying scripture for a living, it is hard to separate that from your own personal devotional practices with scripture.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:11:28 So there have been challenging times over the course of my learning, but they have tended to be those where I allowed my studies to crowd out my faith or to treat religion as something separate from me. I’ve had some colleagues sometimes describe it as putting on their church hat and then they take that off and they put on their academic hat. They’re wearing these two hats. I once thought about my scholarly practices and my spiritual practices in those terms, but I no longer find that comparison helpful.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:12:05 I really like what Elder Neal A. Maxwell said about the disciple scholar eventually realizing that they are only a disciple. I am not two separate people. I am one person who loves to study the scriptures and learn from them from a historical perspective and finds great joy in how that informs my faith. I am also somebody who studies scriptures to hear the word of the Lord and to open myself up to have His promptings in my life.

Hank Smith: 01:12:39 Wow. Dr. Jason Combs, thank you. What a great day we’ve had with you learning from this book and learning from you and your life experience.

Dr. Jason Combs: 01:12:49 Yeah. Thank you for inviting me. This has been great.

Hank Smith: 01:12:52 This won’t be the last time we see you on followHIM. We want to thank you all for joining us, for listening today. Thank you to our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and to our sponsors David and Verla Sorensen. We hope all of you will join us next week. We have more Isaiah to study on followHIM.