Hank Smith: 00:01 Welcome to followHIM. A weekly podcast, dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:11 We love to laugh. We want to learn and laugh with you, as together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:18 Hello, my friends. Welcome to another episode of followHIM. My name is Hank Smith and I am your host. I am here with my co-host John Bytheway, who is like a pelican of the wilderness, like an owl of the desert. John, I am not as a sparrow alone upon the housetop, I am with you. John, that comes from Psalm 102. And I think it means that he is really hungry. So I hope you’re really hungry today.

John Bytheway: 00:46 I’ve never been called a pelican before, Hank. I’m so glad it was you that had that privilege to do that.

Hank Smith: 00:52 I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a pelican of the wilderness, John, but that’s a compliment just so you know.

John Bytheway: 00:58 Psalm 102 verse six, in case you want to see that.

Hank Smith: 01:01 Beautiful. We are on our third episode of The Book of Psalms and we have a special guest today. John, can you tell everybody who’s with us?

John Bytheway: 01:10 Yes, I can. And I like that you put it, a special guest. This is going to be wonderful. For 25 years Michael McLean has been changing lives with tender songs, candid messages, a platinum recording artist with backgrounds in performing, composing, songwriting, producing and directing. Michael McLean has a perfect song for every person, twist or turn along life’s path, probably even one for a pelican. Michael McLean released his debut album in 1983, been touching lives ever since around the world. Now more than 25 albums later, his musical legacy has not only resonated in the hearts of thousands, but continues to be a standard for those seeking meaning and peace. He’s directed some of the church’s most beloved films like Together Forever, The Prodigal Son and Mr. Kruger’s Christmas. He’s written and directed countless musicals, including The Forgotten Carols, Celebrating The Light and another more recent work, Threads. He’s written four books.

John Bytheway: 02:14 He and his wife have three children and live in Utah. And I have a personal story about Michael. He had this three quarter size guitar. I thought, that is the coolest, that’s perfect for travel. And I think I said something like that, wow, that’s a perfect size, that’s great for travel. And I don’t remember how many weeks later here’s Michael McLean on my porch, handing me a three quarter size guitar.

Hank Smith: 02:40 Wow.

John Bytheway: 02:40 And saying, I want you to tell me all of the fun places that you take this thing and all of the fun places that you sing. I became a Michael McLean fan. I thought what a kind thing to do to just show up on my porch. And that guitar, I want to tell you, Michael, Natalie’s played it. Andrew’s played it. Ashley’s played it. I’ve played it. That guitar is still here in our house, as well beloved. And so you are part of our house and we welcome you today. Thanks for being with us today, Michael.

Michael McLean: 03:10 Good to be here. Thanks, John.

Hank Smith: 03:13 Oh, Michael McLean. John, I have my own Michael McLean stories. I’ll probably share them during our podcast today. But we’ve been friends for a decade now and he’s as good as you just explain there. He’s all good to the core.

John Bytheway: 03:28 And Michael, I also understand you have a new website. Could you tell us about that?

Michael McLean: 03:34 My son said, let’s build a home for all your songs so that it can be easily accessible and not only songs, but books you’ve written, we’ll do videos of you like we’re doing here, but you telling a story about a song. I did a podcast for a while called Songwriter Sunday School, where I’d talk about songs that meant a lot to me and their background and would play them. But it’s called allthingsmichaelmclean.com.

Hank Smith: 04:02 Thank you. Our followHIM listeners are good supporters of our guests. So I’m sure you’ll see some traffic going to allthingsmichaelmclean.com. We are going to have a great day today. We are in the book of Psalms. And Michael, I thought to myself, Psalms are songs. Who is one of my favorite musicians on planet earth? And we brought him on the podcast today. Michael, how do you want to approach the book of Psalms? What did you think when I asked you to come on?

Michael McLean: 04:32 I’ve been thinking about the Psalms a lot. You probably, on the other earlier versions, talked about the fact that it’s the most quoted in the New Testament. But the thing that I thought first was these songs that became the songs of Jewish kids’ youth, why didn’t God have the melodies put in the scriptures? Why didn’t David’s version of Psalm 22 or Psalm 23 with those gorgeous words? I thought, well, I know the notation may have changed. Why didn’t Heavenly Father say, here’s the tune that goes with that song from David. I had a great aha. The reason those tunes maybe didn’t get preserved with those lyrics is because, what if the tune that is connected with a song that could have reached you is that melody you hate? I mean, yuck. Do we have to hear that one more…

Michael McLean: 05:30 My mother’s favorite Psalm or hymn in the hymn book growing up when I was growing up was a song called Unanswered Yet, the prayer your lips have pleaded. And I thought the lyric was spectacular, but the melody sounded like it was a bad 1927 recording. It just graded on my nerves. I can understand why it didn’t make the cut for the new green hymn book. But those lyrics were so great. And I remember one day I thought, well, in the early hymn books of the church, you just pick a tune.

Hank Smith: 06:01 Yeah.

Michael McLean: 06:01 Oh, let’s take this great lyric and this was a popular tune, let’s do the Hey Jude tune for this or whatever it was.

Hank Smith: 06:09 Yeah.

Michael McLean: 06:10 The opening line of the song with my tune, unanswered yet the prayer, your lips have pleaded, in agony of heart these many years, does faith begin to fail, is hope declining, and think you all in vain, those falling tears? Say not the father has not heard your prayer. You shall have your desire. You shall have your desire. Sometimes, somewhere you, shall have your desire. Sometimes, somewhere.

Michael McLean: 07:01 And so whenever I would sing this song, I’d pick my tune. Not because it was the true and living tune, but it spoke to me. And so many times I think we sometimes think with songs that if we’re sitting there and the tune doesn’t resonate, we miss the power of the lyric. We miss the power of the message. I have a great friend who’s a gospel singer, who would come to the back of the chapel with EarPods on, great gospel singer. And she would just sit there before the meeting started. And once I came in and I sat next to her and I said, what you listening to? And it was this Edward Hawkins, unbelievably cool gospel choir. And she said, I’m just feeling the spirit. This is how I hear it, because we don’t sing this way.

Michael McLean: 07:55 And I said, that’s right. We don’t sing that way. But she said, but this speaks to me. And I love the reality that, of all those songs and all the different interpretations and all the different melodies that could have been written, I don’t think Heavenly Father wants us to be unable to hear his messages from those songs because we don’t get the chord structure. We don’t get the melodies or we don’t get… And also because they were not originally written in English they’re translations. And so when I take a spirit of a song and try to turn it in a song of my own and interpret it, I don’t feel too bad about not just playing a music for the words exactly as written in the King James version, I’m trying to get to the heart of it so that I can keep repeating that message to myself.

Hank Smith: 08:48 The spirit in which it was written, you get in tune with that. I wanted to read you something from the manual and get both of your thoughts on it. It says, “The Psalms invite us to reflect on the Lord’s power, on his mercy and on the great things he has done. We can never repay him for any of this, but we can praise him for it. That praise may take different forms for different people. It may involve singing, praying, or bearing testimony. It often leads to a deeper commitment to the Lord and to following his teachings.” It goes on to say, “Whatever praise the Lord means in your life, you can find more inspiration to do it as you read and ponder the Psalms.” Michael, I’ve heard you say before that music is a language. How has the language of music, how have you seen it? I mean, this is your whole career so this is a big question, but how have you seen it bless lives? John, same with you. I want to ask you after I hear from Michael.

Michael McLean: 09:38 First of all, I’m so glad you read that passage because after I read that passage, trying to get prepared for this… PS, I grew up in a family where my mother taught me from when I was old enough to understand English, there’s only one problem with life. What? No, there’s only one problem with life. What’s that mom? No background music. What? She said, if we had background music, everything like a movie would go better.

Hank Smith: 10:09 Everything.

Michael McLean: 10:10 Think of this. It would be so much better in your podcast if you read a thing that says, there will be problems if you don’t keep the commandments. Or if you say, oh my gosh, you kept the commandments. If there was just music, everything would be clear. As you’re driving up to this place, having the person in your head tell you the directions. I want heavenly AirPods. I want to say, watch out, go left. Now, there’s traffic problems here. No, no, no, no, no. Don’t spend any more time here, this isn’t good for you.

Hank Smith: 10:45 Right.

Michael McLean: 10:45 So when I read that section about praise, I have to be honest, this is two days old. I thought, does God need us to sing praise… Is he not quite sure he’s okay? And if we just sing more praises to him, then he’d be good.

Hank Smith: 11:03 Then he’ll feel okay inside.

Michael McLean: 11:06 This may be a little irreverent, but I wrote this down because I needed to learn something. And of course, sometimes the song teaches me the truth the only way my heart can hear it. And I picked an actually reverent in the hymn book tune. And this is my thing about praise. I don’t think that God, that God is insecure and needs us to praise him so he’ll feel okay. He’s never been unsteady. I don’t think he’s ever been unsure. We’re waiting for my praise to make his day. But if we call his name every moment that we see, another miracle given you or me, it truly won’t be hard to praise him ever more for those gifts I never truly thanked him for.

Michael McLean: 12:13 And then what I realized is, God doesn’t say, praise me, praise me, praise me, because he needs to hear the praise. It’s because in recognizing the gifts, it changes us. It changes the way we see things. It changes our gratitude function. And of course, spending time in Nashville and working with some of the greatest Christian songwriters, they’ve got the praise songs down and we don’t sing… The closest to a praise song I may have ever written is in the Forgotten Carol’s called Rise and Shine Forth. And that really feels like a praise song. I’ve started to think about every song in which Michael McLean goes, oh, I missed that the first time. That’s the way father in heaven changes me. He doesn’t need the validation. He needs me in the thanking to go, oh, oh my heavens, there’s another gift you gave me I missed. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 13:09 That’s beautiful.

John Bytheway: 13:11 I grew up in a family that the ancient phonograph was constantly going. My dad was not a musician, but he had great musical taste. Every Sunday morning dad was walking around in the living room, leading the phonograph. And my mom sang in the Tabernacle Choir. And so did my grandparents, my great grandparents. So I told you, Hank, when I went on my mission and elders played the Tabernacle Choir, they were just discovering it and it was making me homesick because it’s what I grew up with. And so it’s always been important to me. And I was thinking as we were approaching this, that one of the hymns that I feel is a Psalm is How Great Thou Art. And as Michael was saying, it’s not, I think God needs me to say this to him today. Oh Lord my God, when I in awesome wonder, consider all the works thy hands have made. I see the stars. I hear the rolling thunder, thy power throughout the universe displayed then sings my soul. And it’s for me too. It’s not just for him. It’s for me. How great thou art.

John Bytheway: 14:21 And, Hank, as a teenager being on scout trips and growing up in Salt Lake City and just enough street lights that I didn’t see the stars. But I remember going on scout trips and looking up at that display and just going, whoa, what is going on out there? Look at all those stars. And having that, how great thou art feeling and being able to say to myself, my father did that, that is my heavenly father that did that, was a powerful, affirming moment to think, that’s my father that did all this? And I wanted to sing that song. It reminds me too, of James Taylor that I listened to my sisters mostly when they were teenagers who sang a song called On The Roof. And he had this one line, on the roof the stars put on a show for free. And those stars blew me away. And I thought of that. Doesn’t that sound like a Psalm, Michael, How Great Thou Art?

Michael McLean: 15:24 How Great Thou Art is the best. It’s the best of all those. And like you said, the power of it is not, wow you made a great world. It’s, you made a great world for me.

John Bytheway: 15:37 Well, yeah, what it does for me is-

Michael McLean: 15:40 We just listened to the thing about Elijah and how unbelievable, spectacular things where Elijah calls down the heavens and everything’s going great. And then he is gone and he thinks, well, maybe I failed. I mean, here I am sitting, didn’t work out so great. And I started to think about all the things that I thought, I did this in hopes that I could have an impact on the world, that I would change them. And this is what came. And I also dedicate this to you, my dear friends, who are in fact making a difference. My song went like this.

Michael McLean: 16:16 Have I made a difference at all? Have I made a difference at all? Maybe. Sometimes, probably not that much. If a difference has been made, it’s not for me to judge, but do I make a difference at all? Do I make a difference at all? I just keep on trying. I won’t stop myself, even if I’m not sure if all the trying helps, but I’ll try and try and try and try. And maybe one day I’ll see that the difference I have tried to make made all the difference in me.

Michael McLean: 17:28 As I get closer to the other side. And as we talked about a little bit earlier, I’m on a kidney donor list. And if I don’t get a kidney, I don’t get to try to make a difference at all. And fortunately, there’s been a huge blessing that a kidney donor has come along, who heard me sing my Psalms in 1995 in Colorado Springs, but the song stuck with him. And when he found out that I needed a kidney, he decided to volunteer, which is beyond humbling. And of course, John, as a kidney donor knows about this, but the thing that I thought is, so what if I don’t get a kidney? What if I’m done? Did I make a difference at all? And I got this song because that’s my language. And it’s, Michael, you’re measuring the wrong things. You’re measuring and in show business and as a songwriter, how many streams did you get? How many people loved it? That’s what really counts.

Hank Smith: 18:25 Yeah.

Michael McLean: 18:25 And I thought, no, no, no, no, no. And I have to add this. I have a granddaughter and I was driving with her in the car and we were listening to hits the 10 year old’s love. And Ariana Grande was singing a song she loved. And when the song was over, it was just Sadie and I, and that the DJ said, that’s Ariana Grande singing 7 Rings or golden rings or something. It’s just passed 300 million streams. 300 million. I turned to my granddaughter. I said, Sadie, what’s your grandpa got to do to get 300 million people to hear one of my songs. And without thinking, she says, stop writing yesterday’s favorites and start working on today’s hits. Start working on today’s hits instead of yesterday’s favorites. So I think all of us, whether it’s a podcast or a film or anything, that are trying with all our souls to make a difference, and we don’t really know the gift is we get to make a difference. And that’s what changes us. That’s what transforms us. That’s what makes us new creatures, I think.

Hank Smith: 19:46 Psalm 105 is interesting in that it sings about songs. It starts this way. 105:1. So it sounds like a great radio station, doesn’t it? “Oh, give thanks unto the Lord. Call upon his name. Make known his deeds among the people. Sing unto him. Sing Psalms unto him. Talk ye of all his wondrous works. Glory ye and his holy name. Let the heart of them rejoice that seek the Lord. Seek the Lord and his strength. Seek his face ever more.” So we have a song telling us to sing. Even in the previous Psalm, Psalm 104, “I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live. I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.” That sounds like you, Michael, I will sing until my very last breath, which we hope is not anytime soon.

John Bytheway: 20:37 I’m reminded of this song. I don’t know if it comes from a song. You have to forgive me if it does, but how can I keep from singing? That’s my only way to share what I’m feeling right now. And that just reminds me again of How Great Thou Art, is where do I go with all of this awe that I feel? How can I keep from singing? So I love that music is such a part of the gospel that Jesus would sing a hymn, that they did this in all of their practice before Passover, things like that, that it was such a part of it. And, Hank, I even want to look at Psalms 100 that’s just before the lesson plan, it’s very short, “Make a joyful noise unto the Lord all ye lands, serve the Lord with gladness, come before his presence with singing.” He wants that, I think. And there’s something magical and otherworldly about music that’s international. How music has always been a part of the gospel here, way back in the Old Testament, that we have 150 songs or Psalms here at least.

Hank Smith: 21:43 Surprised to learn they sang during the temple sessions. So here they are doing the sacrifices and lighting the altar of incense and they’ve got a choir there. They’ve got a choir singing.

Michael McLean: 21:54 One of my great ahas about Psalms, and this is not a doctrine. This was just an aha. This is a big deal to me and very sacred and I hope it’s okay to share this. I was reading the 122nd Psalm earlier this month and it’s the, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” And that was always a very, very precious lyric to me, but I hadn’t thought of it in the context of a song because it was the lament of Jesus on the cross. And during my nine year faith crisis, one of the great things that gave me hope was my dad had given this really great talk. And he said, you think you’re having a hard time. If the son of the almighty is saying, why have you forsaken me? I’m feeling abandoned. I’m struggling. It’s not because God’s in another side of the universe.

Michael McLean: 22:47 It’s because he, the greatest intelligence of them all, was bearing witness that if he could put all of his faith in Jesus, that he would come through and do the father’s will even when his father’s spirit wasn’t there, can’t we all? And I was going through such a hard time. And I remember him saying to me, and maybe when you feel most abandoned, and for me, it was a nine year drought of thinking, why won’t he talk to me? If Jesus could go through that, and if Heavenly Father could say, I have faith in Jesus, maybe your drought is your father in heaven is saying, Michael, I have faith in you, that you will choose me even when you don’t feel like I’m there. So I have great love for that scripture, but here’s the aha for me, I realized as I went through this unbelievable Psalm, that completely, a thousand years before Jesus came, is describing the crucifixion.

Michael McLean: 23:47 It’s no it’s going to be like this. And then it’s going to be like this. And then it’s going to be like this. And only at the very end, is there the hope of it. And then I thought, this makes me weep. What if at the moment on the cross where Jesus is in agony and his mother is at the bottom of the cross, he chooses, because he doesn’t have any energy, a few lyrics from a song she taught him growing up. She taught him because the song would prepare him, that maybe that’s when he said, is that me? And then in his final moment, if he says to his mother, and maybe he sang it, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken?” She knew all the rest. She filled in all the blanks. She got every message. And so in his final moments on the cross, rather than proclaiming his agony, he used a song to comfort his mother.

Michael McLean: 25:04 I thought of my gratitude for the fact that’s my language. Writing the songs, thinking about the songs, making up songs, that’s how God talks to me. That’s how I figure stuff out in my strange brain. And it may not be true or doctrinal or perfect, but it’s perfect for me. And so thinking of all these other songs that come up, I’m seeing them in a whole new light.

Hank Smith: 25:31 Absolutely wonderful. I wanted to share something with both of you that maybe you did not know before, John, you’ll have to tell me if you already knew this, but there is a word that appears 245 times in the Hebrew Bible, but is not found in the King James text. And, John, I think a couple of our guests have mentioned this. It’s called, chesed. I read this article from Dr. Daniel Belknap, who was on our podcast previously, the article is called How Excellent Is Thou Loving Kindness. The gospel principle of chesed, he says this word appears 245 times in the Hebrew Bible, but it’s really difficult to translate. He said the KJV provides no less than 15 different terms for this word, chesed. The most common he says is mercy, kindness or loving kindness. This term appears in Psalms at Psalm 25, Psalm 31, 36, 44, 51 59, 86, 106, 107, 109. And the list goes on.

Hank Smith: 26:40 Well, what is this chesed? Let me read from the article, “If salvation is becoming like God, then the doctrine of chesed, as presented in the Old Testament, reveals his divine nature and it illuminates ours.” He said, “Moses declared that God desires to do chesed when he stated that delivering man is not just God’s work, but also his glory. God loves what he does.” I love that statement, John, God loves what he does. “And thus the full meaning of chesed is revealed. For while it is an act predominantly done by God, his expectation is that those who experience his chesed should do so as well. This in turn suggests that chesed said is ultimately revealed to teach us how to act like God we perform chesed when we find ourselves doing the same things God does, we engage in the work of deliverance. If those works are big or small, each one instructs us in our obligations to our fellow men and to God.” He says, “We may begin these obligations in covenantal relationships, but these relationships allow us to learn how to delight in performing chesed.”

Hank Smith: 27:57 I wanted to share with you just a couple of these verses, John and Michael. This is 107 verse 43, “Whoso is wise and will observe these things, even they shall understand the loving kindness, the chesed of the Lord.” It happens again in 109 verse 26. “Help me, oh Lord my God. Oh, save me according to thy chesed.”

John Bytheway: 28:21 Well, I wonder because one of them that I underlined was 119 verse 77. “Let thy tender mercies come unto me, that I may live for thy law is my delight.” And I think it was Elder Bednar that brought that Tender Mercies phrase into our consciousness and conversation so often.

Michael McLean: 28:43 Elder Bednar gave that talk in 2004, his first talk about Tender Mercies. I was in California at the time and I thought, man, that’s a great talk. And I thought to myself, it’s too bad that wasn’t a song because that message is so profound to me. That’s when I fell in love with him and I thought that is so great. Two o’clock in the morning I woke up and this is what came. This is based on his talk, and then what happened to me afterwards.

Michael McLean: 29:14 The day that the soldier crossed through the veil, I heard his late wife got his letter in the mail and it said how he loved her though so very far away. And he knew they’d be together forever, someday. And she was heard to say a tender mercy has come to me. It came from heaven I do believe. It seems like whenever I choose to see God’s tender mercies pour down on me. Well, I believe forever that a song is a gift. It can speak to your spirit with the power to lift. Though the tune may be simple, it can run so deep, teaching lessons like this one that woke me from my sleep. It’s what I’m going to keep. It was a tender mercy that came to me. It came from heaven I still believe. Seems like whenever I choose to see God’s tender mercies pour down on me. And if you’re out there and listening, and you’re wondering why you get this feeling inside you, makes you want to cry. Perhaps you’re reminded of a memory or two, when God’s tender mercies were given to you.

Michael McLean: 31:30 But then maybe you’re thinking, Mike, this hurts too much. With unanswered prayers, you feel so out of touch. Well, I wish I could be there and help you hold on till that day, when your heart can’t help singing this song. I know you’ll sing as strong a tender mercy was come to me. It came from heaven I do believe. Maybe why I was chosen is because I chose to see God’s tender mercies are for those who believe. His tender mercies are for you and for me.

John Bytheway: 32:47 Thank you. All of us, I think since that talk have had that feeling in your song. And I think this week my family has, oh, that was a tender mercy. How often have you done that? And I think it was Elder Gerald N. Lund who wrote a book called Divine Signatures.

Hank Smith: 33:06 Yeah.

John Bytheway: 33:06 That same idea. And, Hank, you had a talk, he knows you. He knows you about personal little tender mercies that people get.

Hank Smith: 33:14 I just kept a tender mercy journal and I thought I’ve got so many of these I need to share them. So yeah, I turned them into a talk because they’re just these beautiful stories of God’s personal timely messages that come to each one of us.

John Bytheway: 33:29 In my Christmas book I wrote about this. I was so thrilled that my last mission companion was one of my high school friends. And so Elder Andrew and I were at Christmas conference in Baguio city in the Philippines. And we watched, guess, Michael. We watched Mr. Kruger’s Christmas.

Michael McLean: 33:50 Wow.

John Bytheway: 33:50 And I’m in the Philippines watching snow fall on Temple Square. And Elder Andrew and I both from Salt Lake City we’re going, whoa that’s because we love Christmas, love Temple Square, love seeing snow fall in Temple Square as that movie goes on and the dancers are there and I’m going, whoa, that’s a heart tug for home. Well, I went back to my area and I have never seen this before since, but I’m back to the hot muggy Philippines and I’m walking down this street and there is a tree that is swarming with fireflies. And I’ve never seen it before or since, but that tree was glistening like Temple Square. And I remember just thinking, did the Lord do that for me? That was my thought, whoa, look at this. People were standing around and looking at it because I don’t think they’d ever seen anything like it before. But I thought, did the Lord just send me a Christmas card?

John Bytheway: 34:59 Yeah, I’ll never forget that. That was my tender mercy that actually was funny because it was a day or two after watching snow on Temple Square and Mr. Kruger’s Christmas.

Hank Smith: 35:09 That’s beautiful.

Michael McLean: 35:11 I hired Jimmy Stewart to do Mr. Kruger’s Christmas.

Hank Smith: 35:14 I remember that story.

Michael McLean: 35:15 That was my story. One of my great memories is I got a chance to… And intimidating. I was 27 years old and I’m standing in front of the first presidency of the quorum of the 12 by myself and I’m playing all the parts. I’d spent three years trying to sell this idea and I felt strongly about it. I felt guided by it. But I was a kid. I didn’t know what I was doing. But I knew I was supposed to get this story told because I’d been producing the Tabernacle Choir music and The Spoken Word for years. And I thought instead of just a concert, maybe we could let the choir’s music that I grew up with in Chicago and New Jersey where all my Jewish friends would come over during the holidays and listen to the Tab Choir. And it was really something.

Michael McLean: 35:56 And so, here I am alone and I had cards and I pushed play on the cassette player for the songs that were in that. And this is what it’s going to be. And I didn’t know who we’d be able to hire to play the part of Mr. Kruger’s Christmas, but in my heart, I wanted it to be Jimmy Stewart. So I did bad Jimmy Stewart, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I stumble and blah blah, do this thing. And I remember that moment where after it got presented to the brethren and the gift of being young is you don’t know you can’t do it. You don’t know that as a 27 year old who plays in rock bands that you could go out and hire the biggest star in the world to make a movie that’s going to be seen by 300 million people in all those different languages.

Michael McLean: 36:47 Oh my gosh. And in fact, years ago I was in Ukraine because the president of Ukraine had invited me, the former president, Viktor Yushchenko who led the Orange Revolution. He had invited me to come and sing at his birthday party. I had a translator who helped there. And then I did some firesides on the Temple Square there in Ukraine. And I met a woman who came up, she said, I didn’t join the church till a few years ago but when I was 12 years old, the first Christian thing ever broadcast on communist, former Soviet television was Mr. Kruger’s Christmas. And I sat there and I wept. And I didn’t know where it came from. I didn’t know what it was about, but I thought, oh, this is what Christmas is in an American country that’s free and that has religious freedoms. And I felt it. Fast forward years later, the missionaries in Ukraine knock on her door. And as they’re talking about the spirit and how she feels it, she says, well, the closest I’ve had to this feeling was when I was 11.

Michael McLean: 37:58 This makes me cry. When I was 11 years old and I felt something called Mr. Kruger’s Christmas and the Tabernacle Choir. And the missionary said, well, that’s us. That’s us. And then this Ukrainian woman that had joined the church, throws her arms around me. And she said, whatever sacrifices you made to figure out how to get that movie made… And then she just held me and wouldn’t let go. There are people who’ve been faithfully listening to you. And one episode may reach them more than others. And another one maybe not. Hopefully one of these songs on this episode may be touching them. But while you’re going through, there will be a moment. Maybe it’s now where something beyond Hank and John and Michael reaches out and makes a word or a thought or a phrase or a lyric or an insight and suddenly, boom, where has that been? How come I didn’t get that? And we don’t know when those moments are and we don’t measure them and they’re not about us anyway.

Michael McLean: 39:13 The older I get, the more convinced I am, whether it’s stopping a fireside in Colorado Springs and said somebody else needs to speak. And all these years later, that one who said it was me, let me give you my kidney. We don’t know. There are so many orchestrations, so many beautiful moments that have been… People that have been brought into our lives. Just last month my song Hold on, the Light Will Come, which was my song about hanging in there that I wrote for my musical about the arc. And it had always been one of my favorite songs and it really helped me then. Just a month ago, I wake up in the middle of the night and this spirit says, Hold on, the Light Will Come, translated into Ukrainian. And with kidney failures, as bad as mine is, I have no energy. I can’t do anything. And I thought, well, that’s interesting. What am I… No, no, no. Michael, figure out how to get in touch with those people who translated your songs, when you went there years ago.

Michael McLean: 40:21 You got to translate Hold on, the Light Will Come. Oh, and while you’re doing that, spirit, find somebody who’s a great Ukrainian singer that everybody would know and have that person sing it. You can go back to bed now.

Hank Smith: 40:34 Okay? Yeah, sure.

Michael McLean: 40:35 I send a little text out about my song, Hold on, the Light Will Come. And then that next day, Dave Levitt, who had facilitated my getting there and getting to know Viktor Yushchenko. He said, this is interesting. I’m going to Ukraine to help distribute cash funds through my foundation to help people who are refugees. You said you needed a singer maybe this is the one. And sends me a link to the woman who was just last fall the runner up to the Ukrainian version of The Voice. Amazing singer. And he says, oh, by the way, her brother-in-law lives in South Jordan.

Michael McLean: 41:16 And I said, this isn’t even real. So in the middle of the night, I’m on the phone. Oh, she’s not in Ukraine right now. She’s a refugee in Poland. Let me see if I can get her on the phone, through her brother-in-law the translator. So I’m on this four way call and she doesn’t know who I am. She doesn’t know who this song is, although I find out that she’s a return missionary that had served her mission in Ukraine. And I said, I’m going to send you a copy of a version of this song maybe it’ll let you know if it’s something that you’d be willing to sing, because she’s an amazing singer. We’ve got a translator that’s working on it, but could you maybe help us translate it? And oh, while I got you on the phone, could you find a recording studio in Warsaw and tell me what key you want to hear my song in? And I’ll sit here in Heber and I’ll play the background, nothing fancy, no orchestration, to Hold On, the Light Will Come and I’ll send it over the internet to Warsaw so you can sing it.

Michael McLean: 42:25 And she says, okay. We find out what key it is. I’m always intimidated about not being a very good piano player, but there was nobody else. I send it to Warsaw. She sends me back the recording and I’m weeping. My song, Hold On, the Light Will Come written 40 years ago to help me with my depression and be part of a musical and she sings this spectacular… It was so moving that the former first lady of Ukraine heard her sing it as they were playing it… This kills me, playing it on a YouTube speaker for a bunch of refugees in a tent and they’re weeping. And these tough, tough, broken Ukrainians are holding each other with, hold on, the light will come. And Kateryna Yushchenko says, I think I know the guy who still owns the biggest broadcast station in Ukraine. Let’s get it there.

Michael McLean: 43:28 And then they put it on YouTube. And then I get an email yesterday from a buddy of mine from Heber who’s doing a refugee mission in Romania, working with refugees, none of which are members, but trying to help them get placed. And they say, every time we hold them and try to feed them, we take our YouTube speaker and we play your song in their language. And here’s the sweetest thing of all. I wasn’t there for the recording. When it comes to the end of that song and it reprises the opening verse, Yulia whispers the words. She’s got the most spectacular voice ever, but she whispers the words. And when I finally got back to thank her for this amazing thing, she, through the translator said, said, it’s not the high notes, it’s not the power of a great vocal performance. She says, it’s the still, small voice.

Michael McLean: 44:46 And I felt at the moment, don’t sing it, whisper it because my people need to feel the still, small voice. And the fact that a song was how that was used and may bless people that 40 years ago, I could have never known could be blessed. It’s, talk about God being great all the time. And there are miracles. We don’t see them we don’t know they’re coming, but they are real.

John Bytheway: 45:36 Please join us for part two of this podcast.