John  Bytheway: 00:02 Welcome to Part Two of this week’s podcast.

Hank Smith: 00:07 You’ve got Psalm 73. You mentioned verse 23. “Thou hast holden me by my right hand.” Not only are you holding my right hand, but you’re holding me. And it reminds me of Nephi. What does he say in his Psalm? “Will thou encircle me about in the robes of righteousness?” It’s just almost like, “God, please hug me. Hold me.” That’s almost childlike, idea of, “I just need to be held by God.”

John  Bytheway: 00:35 2 Nephi 4, Hank. What has just happened? My father died, arguably, one of his best friends in the whole world. My brothers, that’s not going well. I feel really alone. My family’s broken. And that’s when that Psalm comes forth, which is the placement of it makes sense. And then it’s, “Oh,” wretched man that I am. I’d love to be as wretched as Nephi. And then our youth theme this year, “Trust in the Lord. I know in whom I have trusted.” And that’s the pivot point of the Psalm. I love that.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 01:09 And just, I hope it’s okay to be a little bit personal here, but I think there are those of us who are sitting together talking who have really dealt with some significant loss over the past few years. Hank, forgive me for being personal, but you certainly have had to deal with some real loss. I lost my older brother, my best friend, about a year and a half ago.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 01:34 And this is when I need God to hold me by my right hand and comfort my soul. And life is wonderful and it’s rich and it’s good. And wow, mortality can be a bear sometimes, and navigating those feelings. And to have a place I can go that is going to express that for me or help me express that is really cathartic. It’s really healing. That’s what I think God wants from our religious worship. “Let me heal you. I want you to be healthy. I want you to be mine. I want you to be okay, even though life is difficult, and that’s okay too. Come through that and reunite with me on the other side. Let me offer you my hand, my hand of love.”

Hank Smith: 02:17 It’s almost that, “Come here” idea. “Come here.” Right? “Let me hold you.” All of us are fathers here. How many of us would ever turn away our child who wanted to be held? It wouldn’t matter what had happened. “Yes, I’ll hold you.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 02:31 I agree. Isn’t that sweet? This very innocent sort of in 74:11. “Don’t withdraw your hand. Give me your hand again.” I think of the Father hearing that, going, “Yeah.” If a little child reaches out her hand or his hand to you, you don’t leave that hand hanging.

Hank Smith: 02:48 Yeah. That’s that’s awesome, Shon. Thanks for all this.

John  Bytheway: 02:51 It just reminds me, and Shon, you know Hebrew a lot better than I do, but the idea of kafar, to cover, is also to embrace, right? And that the word that we say so often, the atonement at-one-ment, the atonement of Jesus Christ. That’s the whole outcome to be at one again. Doesn’t that come from kafar? That sounds like an embrace, like a whole, to be at one again.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 03:21 Absolutely. Yep. Beautifully said. And you can look at other languages like Arabic, the kafara, and that is all implied in that very beautiful word that was translated as atonement, at-one-ment, that comes from the Hebrew kippur or kafar or kaphar.

John  Bytheway: 03:40 It’s not a separateness that God is trying to do. He wants to bring us all back and be one. And that was the intercessory prayer of Jesus in John 17, “That they may be one as we are one.” We’re all going to be in that embrace, which is such a wonderful idea to think about. It’s not only the way that all this happens, but it’s the outcome that we all want, is to be at one with God again.

Hank Smith: 04:07 I know I’m stretching things here, Shon, but the day of Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, it could be Day of Embrace, the Day of Atonement, coming together.

John  Bytheway: 04:17 Be reunited. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 04:19 Shon, you wrote an article called My God, My God, Why Hast Thou Forsaken Me? Psalm 22 and the Mission of Christ. I just want to read a little bit from the introduction of this and then hand it over to you. You quote that same verse in the opening paragraph. “My God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me?” That’s Psalm 22:1, and then a second from Isaiah, “Surely he hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows.” That’s Isaiah 53.

Hank Smith: 04:49 And then you wrote this, “These two statements, one quoted from the Psalms by Christ as He hung upon the cross, and the other taken from Isaiah by Abinadi in the Book of Mormon, are familiar and dear to all Christians as prophecies that found their fulfillment in Christ’s grand atoning sacrifice. Perhaps no Old Testament text as a whole exerted more influence on the New Testament understanding of Christ’s mission than Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. Psalm 22 was quoted or alluded to at least 11 times by New Testament authors, while Isaiah 53 was used at least 10 times. Indeed, these texts could be considered the twin pillars of Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ.” That is an opening paragraph. Shon, let’s hand it over to you. I want to hear your thoughts on Psalm 22. What has it done for you?

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 05:40 I do love this chapter, and I guess if it’s a good opening paragraph, it’s mostly because I’m quoting from those two powerful verses. But that concept of Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53 as these twin pillars of Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ, and for most of us as Latter-day Saints, that’s going to resonate with Isaiah 53, and with Psalm 22, we’re going to say, “I do not know what you’re talking about,” because Abinadi helps so much for us, as Latter-day Saints, us understand how Christ-centered Isaiah 53 can be and is, we just gravitate to that. And it’s powerful. And New Testament authors gravitated to it as well as they’re describing Christ’s life, His sacrifice, the passion of Christ and His resurrection. Isaiah 53 shows up again and again.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 06:32 But guess what? Psalm 22 shows up even slightly more than Isaiah 53 does. And the whole thing is just saturated with imagery that points the Christian mind to Christ. And let me just say a word about this Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ. It had to have meaning to those who maybe didn’t yet fully understand Christ. And so, it can reflect the ancient Israelite suffering and their trauma and their challenges. But then it also points to the perfect Israelite, the great example of what it would mean to be in a covenant relationship with God, Jesus Christ. The Israelite par excellence, we would say, the one who suffers more than all other Israelites, all other covenant people would suffer, and the one who triumphs. And through His triumph, we can understand our own experiences and have hope that they’re going to work out. Right?

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 07:32 And so, to read these with the lens of Christ, to read Psalm 22, it just sings. And there’s a lot that could be said here. Let’s start with verse one. “My God, my God. Why hast thou forsaken me?” We’re familiar with this line, of course, because Christ says it from the cross. I did some work with my master’s thesis with Don Perry and others help with a Dead Sea Scrolls fragment that started me with Psalm 22. And then Jack Welch is like, “No. You need to do some more with this.” And this opening line that Christ quotes from the cross, we think He’s expressing forsakenness. And indeed He is, He’s expressing this heart cry. But He’s also quoting the opening line to a song. So think of that.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 08:15 If I were to say, “Come, come ye saints,” then that has its own meaning, and that would communicate. But what are all of us going to hear? We’re going to hear the message of the song. The meaning of the words themselves matter, but we’re going to think through, “Oh, all is going to be okay. All is well, all is well.” And I haven’t said, “All as well,” I just said, “Come, come ye saints,” and we’re going to think, “Okay, continue forward, press forward. It’s all going to work out.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 08:40 Well, Christ, even as He was expressing His own feelings and fulfilling this, connecting with this Psalm 22:1, He was also, I believe, comforting those at the cross, because this is going to track through His suffering in very powerful ways, and then it ends triumphantly.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 09:00 So let me just show you some of the ways in which it connects with Christ’s ministry. Let’s look at verse two, “My God, I cry in the daytime, but thou hearest not, in the night season and am not silent.” Now that’s parallelism. He’s basically saying, “I cry in the day and the night,” but there have been those, some of the early Christian fathers said, “Ah, here’s an allusion both to the cross and to Gethsemane, where He was at nighttime. And that sort of disappears over time. But early on, they were seeing, “Oh, we’ve got the dual places of suffering, the cross and His anticipation of the cross and His suffering in Gethsemane.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 09:43 Let’s look at verse six. “I am a worm and no man, a reproach of men and despised by the people.” So I appreciate Paul Hoskisson has done some great work with this idea of being a worm. “I’m nothing. I’m lower. I’m despised.” But then, the reality that the worm gave the Tola’ath, gave the purple, that was the color of royalty. And so, you have this sort of duality there in that verse that refers really well and points to Christ.

Hank Smith: 10:13 Shon, let’s just make sure, for those who don’t know what you mean, it’s the idea that a crushed snail could create that purple dye.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 10:21 That is exactly right. And it’s the word that’s being used in the Hebrew is that worm, that snail, that produces that dye. Thank you, Hank, for making sure I’m communicating well here. Verse 7, “All they that see me laugh me to scorn. They shoot out the hip. They shake the head, saying, ‘He trusted on the Lord that He would deliver him. Let Him deliver him, seeing He delight in him.'” Well immediately, what do we think of?

John  Bytheway: 10:45 They laughed Jesus to scorn.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 10:47 There He is on the cross, and they are saying exactly these things. In fact, the gospels are referring back to, they’re actually using the imagery provided by Psalm 22.

Hank Smith: 10:58 There’s no question that the gospel authors saw…

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 11:02 They’re tracking through this. Look at verse…

John  Bytheway: 11:06 Verse 8, too.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 11:07 Yeah. “He trusted on the Lord that He would deliver him. Let Him deliver him, seeing He delight in him.” Look at verse 14. “I am poured out like water.” And think of the imagery from John, the spear goes into His side and then blood mingled with water. “All my bones are out of joint.” Think of Christ upon the cross. “My heart is like wax. It is melted in the midst of my bowels. My strength is dried up like a potsherd.” This is verse 15, “My tongue cleaveth to my jaws.” And what does Christ say from the cross, of course?

John  Bytheway: 11:42 “I thirst.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 11:43 “I thirst.” One of the things He says.”Thou hast brought me into the dust of death.” Now here’s one that I really love. Let’s skip verse 16 for a moment and we’ll come right back to it. Verse 17, “I may tell all my bones,” so he’s stretched in this uncomfortable position, and maybe this is happening through hunger as well and thirst, but he’s stretched out upon the cross, is the imagery that would point to Christ there.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 12:08 Now let’s come back to verse 16, “Dogs have compassed me.” And this dogs can be an Israelite reference to Gentiles, that he’s surrounded by the dogs or the kelevin, the Gentiles. “The assembly of the wicked have enclosed me, and then this moment they pierced my hands and my feet.” I don’t know that there is a more Christ-centered moment anywhere in the Old Testament. We could talk about Isaiah 53, with my apologies to Isaiah, who obviously gives us some beautiful things that point to Christ.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 12:44 Now the fascinating thing with this one is that, and this is why I wrote my master’s thesis on this, is that this translation actually comes from the Greek Septuagint. If you look at the Hebrew, the Masoretic Text, it actually has a Yod here instead of a Vav. And those are really easy letters to confuse in Hebrew. One is just a very short tick and the other one’s a full line, the Yod and the Vav. And it changes in Hebrew. It basically reads “Like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.” It doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. It’s ka-‘ari instead of ka’aru, but then the Greek Septuagint gives, “They pierced.” And then that’s what the King James Version gave.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 13:28 So it’s this big point of debate. And it came to the point where medieval Jewish Bible purchasers would open to this verse, and they’d say, “Okay, how does that read? Is that ka’ari or ka’aru? Is that they pierced or not?” And if it was ka’ari, then they’re like, “Okay, that’s a good Jewish Bible. And I can buy that.” And then vice versa, it sort of becomes this point of debate, “What’s supposed to be there?”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 13:50 The really fascinating thing as I worked on this is, that there is a small Dead Sea Scrolls fragment from Nahal Hever, and it has the Vav, right? Ka’aru, “They pierced my hands and my feet.” And seems to support this, because where did the Septuagint translators get that from? Well, Dead Sea Scrolls has the Vav. And you could see how that would become a point of contention over time that, “Oh, Nope, not ka’aru, ka’ari.” And we don’t know all the textual history of what happened with that, but a pretty fascinating verse that becomes very Christ-centered. “They pierced my hands and my feet.” Was that way too nerdy?

Hank Smith: 14:31 Not at all. That was really fun.

John  Bytheway: 14:34 This reminds me of Zachariah 12:6, “What are those wounds in your hands?” But if you look at the footnote there, it takes you to Section 45. “What are those wounds in your hands and in your feet?” Section 45 in the Doctrine and Covenants. I want to make that footnote there, that His hands and His feet, the Zachariah 12:6 reference is expanded upon in Section 45, and it matches that, Psalm 22:16.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 15:01 “They pierce my hands and my feet.” And then, of course, when the resurrected Christ shows up, “Feel the wounds in my hands and my feet.” Now look at verse 18. “They part my garments among them and cast lots upon my vesture.” This is quoted by every single one of the gospel authors. This shows up in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. It’s one of the few things that is quoted all the way through. And John even makes a point of sort of seeing those as two separate things. “They are parting my garments,” but then there’s this other garment or robe that He wears that can’t be divided, and so they don’t part that one. They cast lots on that one. And He sort of takes the parallelism and says, it’s fulfilled in two different ways. What they can divide amongst them, they do. But then there’s this thing that can’t be divided, and so they’re going to cast lots for that.

John  Bytheway: 15:54 Yes. And for those of you using paper scriptures, I’m looking at the footnote at Psalm 22:18 and all of those gospel references, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, references from the gospels. All of them are listed there.

Hank Smith: 16:08 I remember paper scriptures, John. I remember those. My grandpa had some of those.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 16:12 I remember.

John  Bytheway: 16:13 I can hold mine up. If you want to see them, Hank. There.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 16:16 There’s a fascinating thing here that now happens. And we’ve talked about it a few times. In lament Psalms, you move from this expression of forsakenness. And by the way, I need to say something else, actually, a little tangent here before I move on. And that is that verse 1 has actually caused some consternation amongst Christian commentators saying, “Now, wait.” They sort of debated, “What does this mean with the concept of the Trinity? Can God be removed from Himself? Can God forsake Himself?” And they’ve worked really hard. “Okay. How do we understand what’s going on here?” So we actually find a lot of Christian commentary digging in and dealing with that. And we, of course, have our own sacred concepts of what Jesus is going through in the garden and on the cross. And before we conclude here with Psalm 22, I’ll maybe just read a couple of powerful statements connected. We’ll sort of circle back to verse one, if that’s okay.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 17:13 So this is the lament section, and now we move into the plea, the pleading section in verse 19, “Be not that far from me, oh Lord.” And if you think of Nephi’s Psalm, where he moves into a request. “Don’t let me any longer slack at my strength.” And there’s this plea section, “Deliver my soul from the sword,” verse 20. Verse 21, “Save me from the lion’s mouth, for thou hast heard me.” And this, Hank, before we started, you were talking about, is there cross imagery that we should talk about? And I said, “Oh, there’s actually one little thing, “Thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns.” Now, unicorns, of course don’t have two horns if you’ve watched enough My Little Pony or whatever the case may be, one horn. But this is not unicorns, of course. It’s oxen. And the idea of these oxen, if you’re thinking of Christian and Christ-centered imagery, he’s stretched out between these horns, and you potentially have some cross imagery that could be seen here in verse 21.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 18:18 Now look at what happens when we move to verse 22, because we’ve been talking about the gospels and how gospel-centric Psalm 22 is, or how Psalm 22-centric the gospels are. But all of a sudden, we are going to start to see a whole new set of connections, low and behold, with Doctrine and Covenants 138, Joseph F. Smith’s great revelation of Christ’s dissent into the spirit world to declare God’s name after His atoning sacrifice. And look now, think of what’s going on in these terms, as the psalmist is saying, “I will triumph. Even though I’m suffering, I know that God will rescue me.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 19:04 but track through Christ’s atoning sacrifice, and now what’s going on here in verse 22, “I will declare that name unto my brethren. In the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.” Well, what congregation is this? And you could say, “Well, for the ancient Israelite, he’s come through his trial and now he’s promising. ‘You’ve saved me and I’m going to bear witness to you.'” But think of Christ then entering into the spirit world, and there’s a whole assembly, is the language that Joseph F. Smith used, of those waiting to receive Him. And He bears witness in and amongst that assembly. Look how beautifully that tracks through.

Hank Smith: 19:43 That’s Doctrine and Covenants 138, verse 18, “While this vast multitude waited and conversed, rejoicing in the hour of their deliverance from the chains of death, the Son of God appeared declaring liberty to the captives who had been faithful.” It’s a perfect fit.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 20:01 And look at how restoration scripture in ways that, I’m not sure who’s seen this before, when I was studying this and writing this article, this hit me. And maybe if I got the idea from someone else, I will ask apologies publicly right now. Joseph F. Smith is revealing, decades after Joseph Smith, the descent into the spirit world and what this means. And Psalm 22 tracks that through. He says, “I’m going to be saved.” And then he shows up and there’s this multitude that’s waiting for him. Now let’s just keep reading it. What does he say to them? “Ye that fear the Lord, praise Him. All ye the seed of Jacob, glorify Him and fear Him. All ye the seed of Israel, He hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted. Neither hath he hid his face from Him. But when he cried unto Him, he heard.” He heard Jesus’ cry of forsakenness from the cross. He’s heard your cry, those of you who have waited in bondage, the spirit world, waiting to be delivered. And Christ has atoned and has conquered death, and you can be free from the prison.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 21:05 Verse 25, “My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation.” Hank, I’m so glad you read that. “I will pay my vows before them that fear Him. The meek shall even be satisfied.” Those that are waiting, longing for the great redemption that will be worked through in Christ, and then Christ shows up. “The meek shall eat and be satisfied.” Hear that little allusion, by the way, as well, that Christ is going to allude back in the Beatitudes, “The meek shall inherit the earth.” “The meek shall eat and be satisfied. They shall praise the Lord that seek Him. Your heart shall live forever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the Lord. And all the kindreds of the nation shall worship before thee.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 21:44 Look at what the psalmist is doing. This is not just one person. This is clearly he’s referring to something much larger than that.

John  Bytheway: 21:52 Much bigger.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 21:52 All of the ends of the earth are going to know this. And if we read it through the lens of Doctrine and Covenants 138, “Throughout time and space all will know this message, that Christ is going to declare to those in spirit prison.” Let’s just finish, verses 29 through 31, “And they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship, all they that go down to the dust, that die shall bow before Him, none can keep alive his own soul. Every tongue will confess and every knee will bow. A seed shall serve Him.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 22:25 And now I want you to think of this moment in Isaiah 53, where he talks about the seed that is preserved, and Abinadi does a lot with that. And look. Low and behold, here’s that same theme showing up of Christ’s seed. “It shall be accounted to the Lord for generations. They shall come and shall declare His righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that He hath done this.” Well, I don’t know if I’ve done that very well, but the psalm just sings, and it sings Jesus Christ and the great redeeming work that He performed that happened in a specific time and a place, but had impact across time and space and has blessed all.

Hank Smith: 23:07 Across the veil. Yeah. Shon, I want to add just a second witness to what you’ve given us here. Our friend, all three of us, our friend is Dr. John Hilton III. He’s so great, they made three of them. He wrote a book called Considering the Cross. He quotes you here on page 152, Shon. He talks about Psalm 22 and the crucifixion. I think everyone should pick up this book, Considering the Cross. He says, “Recognizing the relationship between Psalm 22 and the Savior’s death helps us see that the details of the crucifixion were known from the beginning. For me,’ he says, “this is John. The final part of Psalm 22 is the most powerful. Although it is not quoted in the crucifixion accounts, both Jesus and Matthew may have expected their audience to recall what Psalm 22 says at the end, it ends in triumph. ‘All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto the Lord.'”

Hank Smith: 24:08 So Shon, I’m hearing from you and I’m reading Dr. Hilton’s book, is there a chance then that when the Savior from the cross says, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?” He is in a way telling His disciples, “I’m winning. This is going to end well.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 24:24 Isn’t that beautiful? As the Savior is expressing His own feeling, so that we can know that He understands our own feelings of forsakenness when we feel them. Even as He is giving us that sense that, “I see you. I know you. I meet you where you are.” He is also saying, “And in the midst of your suffering, I will triumph and you will triumph.” So those at the cross, He’s trying to help them understand, “This was foreknown. This was told hundreds of years before. Nothing has gone wrong here. And I will triumph. In fact, what am I going to do? I’m going to descend into the spirit world, and I will offer salvation to all the ends of the earth throughout time and space. That’s what is going on here. This is not the end. This is the beginning. And who’s going to know it? All of the ends of the earth will know it.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 25:14 So thank you for that little prompt, Hank, because I absolutely believe, and I could be wrong, but if you quote the first line of a hymn to those that knew their Bible, to me, there’s very little doubt that that’s what He’s doing. Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 25:29 And you said that. You start with, “Come, come, ye saints.” We all know that we’re going to make this chorus swell, “All is well, all is well.” We know that’s where it’s going to end up. And so, that’s what you’re saying. He starts with this. Those who knew Psalm 22, whatever it was back then, knew how this was going to end. That is really great stuff.

Hank Smith: 25:49 What if I were to say to you, John, “Oh, how lovely was the morning?” You’re not going to say, “Oh, he’s talking about the morning. No, he’s talking about a theophany. He’s talking about Joseph Smith.”

John  Bytheway: 25:59 This isn’t just a weather forecast, right?

Hank Smith: 26:01 I know what you’re saying, although the people around, the Romans around, they would not have known what He was saying. I love that.

John  Bytheway: 26:07 The three of us are sitting here talking today because of a day that started with, “Oh, how lovely was the morning.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 26:15 That’s a great example. Yeah.

John  Bytheway: 26:17 Pretty cool to think about that. A teenage boy said a prayer, and that three of us are sitting here. And it reminds me too, I just want to mention, Abinadi quotes Isaiah 53, that’s Mosiah 14, which you mentioned. And he talks about this suffering servant that we believe is Christ, being cut off out of the land of the living, and who will declare his generation? And then Abinadi explained it. “He’s going to see His seed, the travail of His soul. He will see His seed.” And look at that, verse 30, “A seed shall serve Him. It shall be accounted unto the Lord for a generation.” There is that generation that He’s going to have. I never tied this to that before, but you’ve really blessed my life today. Shon, thank you.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 27:01 John, and I’ve got to tell you, it’s so fun to read the scriptures together with those who rejoice in the power of the Word. It’s just very satisfying.

Hank Smith: 27:11 It’s just almost like Psalm 22. I’m trying to express this, for me was like reaching through the other Standard Works and just touching it. Section 138, Matthew and John, and you’re seeing this. John, you love that verse, where the Lord says, “I’ll expound all things.”

John  Bytheway: 27:25 Yeah. Where Jesus expounded all things in one. The first time I had heard that idea was from Robert Millett, that “When he expounded all things in one,” and you’re like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa. What? He did what? Where do you get tickets to that?” And that’s what we are all trying to do. In our church, we don’t have just one book. We’ve got four. We’re trying to put them all together and see them all as one.

Hank Smith: 27:49 And Shon did that.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 27:51 Let’s just do a moment of speculation here on the road to Emmaus, can you imagine Jesus saying, “Hey, let’s read… Remember what Jesus said on the cross? My God, my God, why hast… Let’s just read that. Let’s think about that psalm together.” And them going, “Oh, wow. We totally missed what was going on there.” And I don’t know if Jesus quoted Psalm 22 or not, but certainly the gospel authors did. They certainly saw it. And I like that idea of Jesus saying, “Hey, let’s just take Psalm 22.”

John  Bytheway: 28:23 Just one example.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 28:24 “I really wish…” Yeah. For example, I really wish Abinadi, he did such a great service for us, as Latter-day Saints, with Isaiah 53. We needed Helaman or somebody like that. “Hey, let me read Psalm 22.” But they, of course, the Nephite prophets, they really liked their Isaiah, which is great.

Hank Smith: 28:40 Yeah. They did. I love that idea, Shon. Jesus is like, “Psalm 22 maybe. How about we start there?”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 28:46 “Let’s look at that one.”

Hank Smith: 28:48 “Let’s just look at that one. We’ve got a long walk ahead of us.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 28:49 I would love us to just put this back in its place, so to speak, as Christians, as Latter-day Saints. It’s a crucial place, that Doctrine and Covenants 138. This unique Restoration Scripture connects with it so beautifully and powerfully.

Hank Smith: 29:07 It’s a puzzle piece, where it slides perfectly into place in those verses. That, to me, what a wonderful connection, Section 138.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 29:17 So let me just read if I could, because it’s beautiful, it’s poignant, a few Latter-day Saint comments about this cry of forsakenness. And they all interpret it, and I fully agree, this is what it means to me as a real historical cry. Jesus is really saying this from the cross. So, Elder Erastus Snow, “It was necessary that the Father should thus measurably forsake His son, leaving Him to his enemies. Otherwise, they never could have fulfilled what had been prophesied concerning Him.” The most poignant one that I think we’re most familiar with, Elder Holland also does some beautiful things here. But first, Elder Melvin Ballard, “In that hour, I think I can see our dear Father behind the veil, looking upon these dying struggles until even He could not endure it any longer. And so, He bowed His head and hid in some part of His universe, His great heart almost breaking for the love that He had for His Son.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 30:09 Now, I’ve got friends and colleagues who don’t love everything. Can God really hide in the corner of a universe? Would He do that? I love this statement by Elder Ballard. I find it very poignant and powerful. I really love what Elder Holland does here, where he says, “The Father watches through the night with His Son.” And so, the way I like to think of it, when you have a child that just has to go through something difficult, and they have to do it. You can’t take that away from them. They have to walk through that difficult thing, and they have to know that they’ve had the strength to do it. Maybe it’s rare, these moments where you let them experience, but you are there. You are watching, you are loving, you are cheering them on. You are aching with them. And so, Elder Holland’s affirmation, “God doesn’t leave us alone, but it does feel like we’re alone at times.” And that is part of this divine process as well. I really appreciate that approach.

Hank Smith: 31:09 That’s really good.

John  Bytheway: 31:11 I just can’t get over verse 30. This is Abinadi, “Who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living.” Isaiah 53, “But He’ll see His seed.” And look at verse 30, “His seed shall serve Him and shall be accounted unto to the Lord for a generation.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 31:28 Pull it all together. And I’m really glad, John, that you went and read that from Abinadi for us, so that you could help us make that connection. It’s really great.

John  Bytheway: 31:37 It’s those two words, a seed and a generation. And I’m curious, the Lord is not in all caps there in verse 30.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 31:45 Well, as we look at the Hebrew there, John, it is Adonai, is what is there, not Jehovah, but the Lord. But clearly referring to this salvific figure, “Posterity will serve him. Future generations will be told about the Lord.” And by the way, how satisfying is it to be part of that company? Here we are, three of us sitting together talking about the greatest and truest narrative that has ever been told, and seeing it so beautifully in Psalm 22. And here we are, some of a very small portion of those future generations that have been told about the Lord through Psalm 22 and through the gospels and through the restoration of the gospel. That’s pretty satisfying. You talked about tying all things together in one, and it’s fun to be a part of that.

Hank Smith: 32:35 Shon, it’s almost as if in my head, I’m seeing two puzzle pieces, Psalm 22 and Isaiah 53. And you’re looking at them going, “I need a connection between these two.” And we’re yelling out, “It’s Mosiah 14 and 15.” Right? That can slide right between those two and make a connection that you will be forever grateful for. And then maybe another one with section 138 of the Doctrine and Covenants. That will fit perfectly in this puzzle. “You have Psalm 22, you have Isaiah 53. Let us give you Mosiah 14 and 15 and Doctrine and Covenants 138 and show you the complete puzzle.” That’s exciting to me.

John  Bytheway: 33:11 I just love that some of the greatest things we’ve got came out of such circumstances with Abinadi at the threat of his life.

Hank Smith: 33:21 Yeah. And Joseph F. Smith in terrible circumstances, Christ in terrible circumstances.

John  Bytheway: 33:28 They’re asking Abinadi, trying to stump him with an Isaiah verse about how beautiful upon the mountains. And he’s like, “What are you teaching these people?” “Love Moses.” He’s like, “Well, why don’t you keep it?” But then he says, “But salvation comes in Christ. How could you have missed this?” And he reads Isaiah 53 to them, right? “How could you have missed this?” That redemption cometh because of Christ at the end of Mosiah 16. And then out of that came Abinadi explaining after Mosiah 14, Mosiah 15. This is, “How will he see His seed?” And I love when he says, he does a past, present, future thing, Abinadi does. “How beautiful upon the mountains have been their feet. How beautiful the mountains are their feet.” And then he talks to our future missionaries and how beautiful upon the mountains will be their feet. And he does a past, present, future. And he answers their question, but in the middle, he gives them this amazing thing.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 34:24 Look what you’ve just tied together in beautiful ways that I don’t think I’ve seen before. Psalm 22, Isaiah 53. So there’s Hebrew Bible, there’s Old Testament. The gospel authors that are tying that story together. The Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Restoration Scripture, Latter-day Prophets. Speaking of seeing eye to eye across time and space, I don’t know if that could be more beautifully done than what we called these two twin pillars of Old Testament prophecy. God be thanked for Abinadi. Would we have seen this without it?

Hank Smith: 34:58 Right. Oh.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 35:00 I love the Book of Mormon.

John  Bytheway: 35:02 Good point.

Hank Smith: 35:03 This, ladies and gentlemen, is our idea of a good time, just so you know.

John  Bytheway: 35:08 Yeah. Have to go meet at J-Dawgs and make it complete.

Hank Smith: 35:10 I’d rather do this than Disneyland.

John  Bytheway: 35:12 It’s a lot cheaper.

Hank Smith: 35:15 Shon, I don’t want you to leave without doing Psalm 23, because I know how much you love it.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 35:19 Thank you so much. Here’s something fascinating. If Psalm 22 has not been appreciated enough, and we would want it to be appreciated significantly more by all of us, let’s turn the page. Here is a psalm that has spoken over and over and over again to those in need. And John, you and I were talking about this a little bit before, and I’d love to hear some of the thoughts again that you were sharing about Psalm 23.

John  Bytheway: 35:48 Well, first of all, I didn’t understand until I saw a couple of documentaries about the King James Bible, just that translating it, it’s one thing to get the meaning of it, translate it from Hebrew to English. It’s another thing to make it beautiful. Psalm 23 is beautiful. I’m looking at the Living Bible Translation, and I love it. I use it. But listen to how different. “Because the Lord is my shepherd, I have everything I need. He lets me rest in the meadow grass and leads me beside the quiet streams. He gives me new strength. He helps me do what honors Him the most.” And the meaning is there. And like I said, I love that.

John  Bytheway: 36:29 But listen to it in Psalms. It’s poetry. “I shall not want.” I didn’t get that when I was a kid. It means I won’t lack anything. “The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul.” And I didn’t realize that until I was watching some documentary, and they started reading that and going, “Not only is it the meaning, but it’s beautiful.”

John  Bytheway: 36:57 I was reading a book by Sister Chieko Okazaki, who was the General Relief Society President, I want to say in the late eighties, I think. And she told a story, and I love our veterans because my dad was one, and she told a story about a man named Captain James Ray, who was shot down in an F-105 Thunderchief, went to the Hanoi Hilton. I wanted to find this. I had to go on eBay to find a copy of the January ’96 Guideposts, but I did. Guideposts is a magazine my grandmama used to read.

Hank Smith: 37:36 Remind our listeners what the Hanoi Hilton is.

John  Bytheway: 37:39 Thank you. The Hanoi Hilton was nicknamed sarcastically. It was a terrible prison camp in Vietnam, where a lot of Americans were kept there in that prison who had been shot down and so forth. And this Captain James Ray was there. Just the most interesting thing happened after being tortured and everything, thrown on the floor in this tiny room, the guards going back and forth. They could only talk when the guards couldn’t hear that they were talking or they would be punished. But he heard a voice that said, “Hey buddy, what’s your name?” And the other man there’s name was Bob Purcell. It’s so interesting to me, that of all the questions he could have asked him, it wasn’t the World Series. It wasn’t the Super Bowl. He said, “Do you know any scriptures?”

John  Bytheway: 38:30 And he said, “I know the Lord’s Prayer.” And the voice whispering underneath said, “Well, everybody knows that. Do you know the 23rd Psalm?” And “Only a little. I began whispering it,” he said. “He repeated each line after me. A little later, he whispered back the entire psalm. Other prisoners joined in, sharing verses they knew. Through these contacts, a fellowship grew among us. One night, he said that ‘I heard tapping and I didn’t know what it was.’ And it took him a while to recognize, ‘Hey, that’s Morse code.’ I-W-I-L-L. He started scratching it on the floor. Psalm 121. ‘I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from once cometh my help.'”

John  Bytheway: 39:23 Can you imagine hearing this in prison? And these guys encouraging each other with the psalms. Isn’t that something? He said that as they moved to different cells, one of my favorite parts of this, he said, “My first cellmate was Larry Chesley, a Mormon from Idaho.” And he said, “Though we had a few differences in our belief, our common denominators were the Bible and Jesus Christ. And we were able to share and write down a great deal of scripture.”

John  Bytheway: 39:53 One of my favorite parts of this is that as more prisoners came and they got moved around, they organized a Christmas party. From memory, they recited as best they could, Luke 2. “There went out a creed from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.” Told the Christmas story. And he said, “A choir. These guys are in prison pajamas, beards. They can’t shave. Emaciated, sickly. They sang Oh Little Town of Bethlehem.”

Hank Smith: 40:22 John, remind me, wasn’t that story in your Christmas book?

John  Bytheway: 40:27 I put it in there. I thought that was a Christmas story to me, when they got together and recited Luke 2 and sang O Little Town of Bethlehem and things. The thing that James Ray said about, “They gave us a Bible, but then they took it. But we had the scriptures written in our hearts and could still find joy from that.” So yeah, I wrote a little book called Born This Happy Morning, which is one of my favorite lines from a song ever. “Yea, Lord, we greet thee, born this happy morning.” What a happy morning. And he says, “We noticed our interrogator, one of these officers, peeking in and watching with a “What’s going on?” Look.” And he said, “That night, after months of asking, they brought us a Bible. The first one we had seen.” That was their Christmas present, for them, that he brought them a Bible.

John  Bytheway: 41:22 They would share verses that they remembered on precious pieces of toilet paper and hide them behind bricks in the latrine so that when others could go, they could pull those out and get some encouragement. This is what I love, because they let them have this Bible for a while, and then they came and took it. James Ray says, “From that, we learned the most important lesson. Bible verses on paper aren’t one iota as useful as scriptures burned into your mind, where you can draw on them for guidance and comfort.” Isn’t that great? Of all the things that they could have been strengthened by, it was by the Psalms.

John  Bytheway: 42:02 Listen to this. I’ll read it as if you were in a prison camp. “The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures. He leadeth me beside the still waters. He restoreth my soul. He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name’s sake. Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me. Thou prepares the table before me in the presence of mine enemies. Thou anointest my head with oil. My cup runneth over. Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”

John  Bytheway: 42:58 That story changed it for me, reading it as a prisoner in a hopeless situation, could read that Psalm and get some hope.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 43:08 That is powerful. So how beautiful is it that we just read Psalm 22, and it’s a triumphal ending, where then the name of the Savior is being declared in the congregation. It’s Psalm 22:22. And then turn the page, so to speak, and is there anything that’s read more often than Psalm 23? Go to a funeral and your chances are pretty high that someone will be expressing this comforting message found in 23. And where does the power come from? It comes from that which is testified of in Psalm 22.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 43:48 And so, this is what I love about being a Christian, about believing in Christ, is that He comforts me. He meets me. He understands sorrow. And He gives me hope that I will triumph after all things. And that 22 and 23 are next to each other. And by the way, we could continue that. 24 is this sort of temple, “Who’s going to ascend into the hill of the Lord?” 24 or “Who shall stand in this holy place?” This is how Hank started everything. “He that hath clean hands and a pure heart.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 44:21 Don Perry does a really nice thing with verse 6 of Psalm 24, if you want to just turn the page there. “This is the generation of them that seek Him, that seek thy face, Selah. And Selah, by the way, you’ll see that a lot. And we’re not exactly sure what that means. There’s debate about what it means, but it seems to be some sort of a musical notation like pause the music or sort of continue, now move into this musical rendition, that kind of thing.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 44:49 But Don Perry has noted that the Hebrew there for generation, if it’s just pointed a little bit differently and the vowels weren’t pointed clearly, they weren’t pointed at all. So it could be generation. “This is the generation of those that seek His face.” Or it could be, “This is the circle of those that seek Him,” that there is a group gathering together in prayer that is seeking after the Lord.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 45:12 And that’s the Lord that’s revealed in Psalm 22, and who comforts us in Psalm 23. And John, not to embarrass you, and feeling emotional with Psalm 23, but we need this. We need a God who meets us where we are. And may I just testify, give my sense of this. As you’re reading this with “Come follow me, seek diligently,” these scriptures might save your life someday, knowing them and loving them. There may come a time where you are just ashes, so to speak, emotionally. And you just aren’t strong enough to know where to go to get comfort and to get help. And the Psalms may be that which gets you through the dark hours of the night, which were given by an ancient Israelite, who I love for the depth of soul that is expressed here and for this witness of God and God’s mercy. And I hope you find something that will be that tether for you, if the time comes when you desperately needed a tether, you may find it right here in these weeks’ readings.

John  Bytheway: 46:25 Well said.

Hank Smith: 46:25 Sure will. When I read Psalm 23, I hear Nephi, or I should say, when I read Nephi, I hear Psalm 23. Some of this language just seems to sneak into the way Nephi talks. Now there’s no way of knowing, Shon’s told us, when to know when these are written. So, did Nephi have access to this? It sure seems like it to me. Listen to Psalm 23:2, “He maketh me to lie down in green pastures.” Doesn’t that sound like Nephi saying, “The Liahona led us to the more fertile parts of the wilderness?” In fact, the next phrase is, “He leadeth me beside the still waters.” Nephi had the ocean water stilled for him. “He restores my soul. He leads me in the path of righteousness.” That’s 2 Nephi 4, where Nephi himself says, “Oh Lord, will thou not shut the gates of thy righteousness before me, that I may walk in the path of the low valley.”

Hank Smith: 47:25 Here in verse four, “Yeah, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil.” And Nephi says, “Why do I fear because of my enemies?” Psalm 23:5 says, “Thou prepares the table before me in the presence of mine enemies.” I just feel like Nephi has done what you said, Shon. He’s read it so closely, I think it’s saved his life in his darkest moment.

John  Bytheway: 47:48 You need to write an article on that. It’s fascinating.

Hank Smith: 47:51 Isn’t that? As I was reading, I was like, “Man, Nephi, no wonder he is a psalmist. He probably had them memorized.”

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 47:58 I second John’s little ping there, by the way. I totally agree.

Hank Smith: 48:02 Shon, what a fantastic day going through these first psalms. Wow. I’ve just been so touched. I think our listeners would be interested in your journey as an Old Testament scholar and a believing Latter-day Saint. How have those come together for you? And tell us your feelings about the Old Testament. I just love to get you talking about the Old Testament.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 48:26 So honestly, it’s a great question. I think that today has really modeled why I care about the Hebrew Bible, why I care about the Old Testament so much. And I have to say, I think it was early on, learning just how much Joseph Smith loved Hebrew and how much he loved and gained inspiration and revelation from reading the Old Testament, that also pointed me in that direction. But to see the great interconnectedness of the teachings of the prophets over time is so deeply satisfying. And it’s only available if we actually study that which is ancient, to see how it creates this reservoir of imagery and prophecy and teachings and concepts that then connect with modern day prophets and how they sort of connect, as I’ve said, probably too many times now, across time and space. How beautiful is it to see those messages interweave and support each other, and for a Latter-day Saint reader to recognize God is God. And the God of the Hebrew Bible is the God of the restoration. And they are one.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 49:44 And President Nelson, what a prophetic voice he has as someone who is giving us what we need right now, and over and over and over again, uses things from the Old Testament, from Old Testament prophets, to help us understand why what we’re doing today is so important.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 50:02 And so, to go back and understand the foundations, and I hope that I, along with all of us, somebody from the church office building told me there was actually a time this year when the Old Testament got more hits on the internet, on the church’s website than the Book of Mormon. And you might think that’s a travesty, but I think “Yay. People are reading the Old Testament.” Because if you read the Old Testament, then you understand the Book of Mormon-

John  Bytheway: 50:31 Much better.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 50:31 If you understand the Book of Mormon, you understand the Old Testament. And it all folds together into this grand witness of what God has been trying to accomplish from the beginning to the end. And even though there’s differences in the ancient world, and we don’t want to overly minimize those, to see the grand unity of the message is something that Joseph Smith cared very much about, and that really resonates in my soul as someone who believes deeply in the ministry and the mission of the Savior, Jesus Christ.

Hank Smith: 51:02 Awesome. We loved having you here, Shon. Thank you for being here. John Bytheway.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 51:07 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 51:07 How did we get this lucky again? Do you remember how we…

John  Bytheway: 51:10 Well, I was honestly sitting here thinking that I’m blessed to be here. This is the kind of stuff that gets me fired up. And I’m so grateful for my wife, because when I go tell her, she’ll be excited about this. “Look at this Psalm 22.” And so thank you, Shon. It’s been a good day.

Hank Smith: 51:28 It’s been a very good day.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 51:28 You are dear friends. And I, driving over here, I just thought, “Wow, they are gluttons for punishment. That’s what this is all about. They have really taken ‘good people need to suffer’ to heart.” This is a joy for me. Thank you.

Hank Smith: 51:43 If that’s what suffering is, I’ll take it. This isn’t the last time we’ve seen Shon Hopkin on FollowHIM. So Shon, we’ll say goodbye for now, just for now.

Dr. Shon Hopkin: 51:54 Very good. I look forward to next time.

Hank Smith: 51:56 We want to thank you for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producers, Steve and Shannon Sorensen, and our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And we hope all of you will come back next week. We’re going to take on some more Psalms on FollowHIM.

Hank Smith: 52:11 We have an amazing production crew we want you to know about. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. Thank you to our amazing production team.