Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to Follow Him, a weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come, Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we follow him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:19 Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith. I am here with my kingly co-host, John Bytheway. Welcome John Bytheway.

John Bytheway: 00:00:28 Thank you for that royal welcome.

Hank Smith: 00:00:31 Yes, you are royalty to me, I’ll tell you that. Now, the reason I bring that up, John is because we are going to be discussing the kings of Israel today, some more kings. We’ve studied one before, but let’s keep going on this. One of BYU’s brightest minds and one of my favorite people is with us today. Can you share with our audience who’s joining?

John Bytheway: 00:00:57 Yes. I’m excited as I’ve read this bio this morning to have Dr. Michael A. Goodman with us. He’s the Religious Studies Center Associate Publications Director. He’s worked for the church educational system since 1989. Was the manager of the CES college curriculum before joining the Department of Church History and Doctrine in 2007. He holds a bachelor’s degree in journalism and public relations. He has a master’s in information technology and a PhD in marriage, family, and human development.

John Bytheway: 00:01:29 Now, here’s where I got really excited. He is a co-investigator on the Family Foundations of Youth Development, Longitudinal research project. His research focus is on adolescent and family faith development. He’s been married to Tiina Anita Goodman from Lahti, Finland since 1985. They have two children and five grandchildren. So excited to have you here today. I’m eager to listen. When you talk about youth development and youth faith development, that’s very interesting to me. So thank you for joining us today.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:02:05 You could tell from the intro that I’m a Jack of many trades and a master of few. I think I’m one of the few people on BYU’s faculty who have actually taught 10 different courses at BYU.

John Bytheway: 00:02:16 Wow.

Hank Smith: 00:02:18 Yeah, that definitely beats me. John, I have been excited to share Mike with our audience. Mike and I have been friends for over a decade. If you see Mike in the hallways at BYU, you know what you’re going to hear. You’re going to hear, “Top of the morning.” Where did that come from, Mike, “Top of the morning?”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:02:34 I haven’t a clue, but it’s about 30 years old in my life.

Hank Smith: 00:02:38 And Mike, I didn’t hear it in the bio, but you’ve already served as mission president. Isn’t that right?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:02:42 That’s correct. I was a mission president in Thailand from 1997-

Hank Smith: 00:02:47 Wow.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:02:47 … to 2000. So literally I started my mission as mission president 25 years ago. I started fairly young. I was a 33 year old mission president. It scared some of my missionaries’ parents because they had kids older than their mission president of their child.

Hank Smith: 00:03:03 Yeah, I bet.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:03:05 So I joined the church when I was 18 and I was walking Bangkok streets at 19. Served there and then married heaven, and 13 years later went back as a mission president.

Hank Smith: 00:03:14 Unbelievable. Unbelievable, Mike.

John Bytheway: 00:03:17 Yeah. 33.

Hank Smith: 00:03:18 Mike is also a cancer survivor. John, I forgot about that.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:03:22 Four cancers. I’m an overachiever.

John Bytheway: 00:03:23 Whoa.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:03:25 My first diagnosis was about 14, 15 years ago and it was lymphoma. And then seven years later, I was diagnosed with leukemia. They got rid of the lymphoma in theory. And then that leukemia, I still have. It’s a chronic, which means there’s no cure right now. But that’s okay, my job’s to outlive it. Then I was diagnosed with a carcinoma. Five and a half hours of surgery later that one’s gone. And then 10 months ago I was diagnosed with another lymphoma and just finished radiation treatments for that. If all’s well in Zion, I’m back to one cancer. So I’m just back to my leukemia and it’s my job to stay healthy.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:03:59 I asked my doc, I asked my oncologist, I said, “I want to live till I’m 80. What’s my chances?” He was an old cowboy doc. He just looked at me and said, “Not good.” No smile, no laugh, “Not good.” He said, “If we base it on today’s science, but based on the future science who knows? It’s possible.” And I said, “Well, I’m a health freak. I work out like crazy. I eat healthy. That should help too, right?” And he said, “Nope.” He was not the bearer of a lot of good news. But he did say, “The time will come and we have to treat you really harshly. And if you’re strong enough, you can endure the treatments.” My job is to stay alive while they’re trying to find the treatment, the cure for my current cancer. So it’s all good. I’m healthy. I always tell people I’m healthy as a horse and my wife always laughs and says, “Yeah, a cancerous horse.”

Hank Smith: 00:04:48 Nice, cancerous horse.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:04:51 I’m good. Life’s good.

Hank Smith: 00:04:52 Mike, you’re an inspiration already. This week we’re going to be in 2nd Samuel and 1st Kings. Isn’t that right?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:04:59 Correct.

Hank Smith: 00:04:59 Okay. Where do you want to take us today? We’ve got a bunch of listeners who are ready to study.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:05:05 Wonderful. Maybe it’s just wise to remind listeners what they probably already know because I’m sure your past guests have shared this. It’s important to remember that what we’re studying today, though it occurred around 1000 BC, most scholars believe that what we’re reading actually was written between 605 and 550 BC. So we’re talking a 400 to 500 year differentiation. And that’s why we often refer to those who are writing this as redactors, which shouldn’t be a strange concept for Latter-day Saints, because that’s exactly what Mormon and Moroni are.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:05:39 They took written and oral texts and they combined them into what you and I understand as the Book of Mormon. And so what we’re reading today is the redactor’s version of what happened to David and Solomon. And that’s important, we’re going to get the inspiration the Lord gave to the redactor, but we’re also going to get the reactor’s understanding based on their current cultural context. Understanding that helps us as we start to try to interpret and apply what we’re reading in the scriptures, especially because some aspects of it get icky and don’t necessarily fit with our modern understanding of the way things should be.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:06:15 And then the second thing that if I could, just to set us up, when we’re studying, especially the Old Testament, by the way, I love the Old Testament. Having said that, it’s important to remember that it’s dated. It’s based in a different cultural context. When we’re studying things, especially like today, we’re going to see a lot about morality and chastity and family and marriage. We’re going to see cultures and contexts that don’t necessarily match exactly what you and I understand and what we would think of. And then that’s not good, bad or ugly, but it’s crucial that we understand what God has revealed about each one of those topics.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:06:54 And that doesn’t mean we take our current understanding and put it upon what David necessarily understood or Solomon understood, but for us to get what we need to out of the story, we need to make sure we’re seeing it as the Lord has actually revealed it. And so we start by saying, what did this mean to David? What did it mean in context? What did it mean to Bathsheba? How would they have experienced this? That’s important, but if we leave it there, it’s pretty hard to gain much and then take what the Lord wants us to take and move forward.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:07:26 And so we have to take it from there and say, “What is it that the Lord wants us to learn from this?” And in order to do that, for instance, we’re going to have to see marriage different than David did. David’s version of marriage and Solomon’s version of marriage as we’re going to see, definitely at times diverges from ours. And it’s going to become important that we understand what was cultural in David’s understanding and what was gospel or what was Spirit directed. The same thing for us when it comes to chastity in these issues, we’re going to talk about. What may have been the cultural norm at that time, 400 or 500 years in the past, we’re getting a lesson taught to us by redactor and keeping in context what’s having based on the words of modern prophets.

Hank Smith: 00:08:08 Awesome. These are two absolutely crucial scripture study skills. If you really want to get the most out of scripture, having just those two basic skills can really take you a long ways. Let’s jump in.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:08:19 So we’re going to go to chapter 5, 2nd Samuel 5. Again, if we put this in basic context, king David has already ruled over the house of Judah for about seven years. His kingdom, so to speak was in Hebron. Now got the death of Saul and ultimately the death of Abner, his general. Israel who Saul’s son Ishbosheth was ruling over is now rudderless. And they end up coming to king David here in chapter five and understand there’s this schism. And this is just the very beginning of that schism between North and South, really.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:08:58 But the Israelites come in and say, “We’d like you to be king over us right now.” In verse two, “Also in time past when Saul was king over us, thou David, was he that ledst out and broughtest in Israel. And the Lord said to thee, ‘Thou shalt feed my people Israel. Thou shalt captain over Israel.'” They’re selling David on the fact that he should be king here. Verse three, “So also the elders of Israel came to the king to Hebron, and king David made a league with them in Hebron before the Lord. They anointed David king over Israel.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:09:30 So we had a United Israel under Saul, a smaller version, but basically it was still Dan to Beersheba. It was still the North and the South, but then they’re going to come and anoint king David as king. So that starts us off by way of our historical context. He was 30 years old when he started to reign. And then as it says, in verse four, he’s going to reign over Israel and Judah for 40 years.

Hank Smith: 00:09:55 I think this brings in one of the skills you told us about, which was the later redactor knows that Israel and Judah are going to split.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:10:03 That’s exactly right.

Hank Smith: 00:10:04 Maybe not at the time, they wouldn’t have known that, but they’re explaining it in terms that only someone who knows they’re going to split later would understand, because even says in verse five, “He reigned 30 and three years over all Israel and Judah,” making it like, oh, why would they be split? Well, you mentioned there’s a little bit of a division right now, but definitely not as much as going to come later in the road, right?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:10:26 That’s exactly right. You’re going to see different textual hints as we go through where it’ll say this happened and it’s this way till this day. So in other words, he’s saying, “Yes, it happened 400, 500 years ago. We’re still seeing it today.” And so you can clearly see by just the textual evidence that what is written was written after. And different scholars date it to different timeframes, but basically 400 to 500 years after.

John Bytheway: 00:10:51 I think this is important because it’s easy to read like the end of verse three, “They anointed David King over Israel,” and think that means over the house of Israel, but here we’re not talking about the house of Israel. We’re talking about political Israel, the kingdom of Israel and Israel and Judah. And after the reign of king Solomon, that’s when they split and we call it the divided kingdom.

John Bytheway: 00:11:14 When you read Israel, there’s the person, Israel. There’s the house of Israel. There’s hooray for Israel, which is all of us in other side of heaven. Hooray for Israel. And there’s the political Israel. So it’s nice to clarify, okay, he’s talking over boundaries and real estate right now. King over the kingdom of Israel and Judah.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:11:40 Correct. Finally, after many years of trying, we’re going to make Jerusalem a capital for the Israelites, at least. So in verse six, the king and his men went to Jerusalem unto the Jebusites. The Jebusites were the original, well, at this point, the original inhabitants of Jerusalem. And Joshua had tried to drive them out, but wasn’t able to do so. They actually were able to kill the king in Yebu. In Jewish that’s not a J it’s a Y. In Yebu, but they still couldn’t drive out the inhabitants. Jerusalem set at the nexus.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:12:16 Above Jerusalem, you have the kingdom of Israel and below you have the kingdom of Judah, none of the Israelites had reigned or held Jerusalem. And so David is going to be the first to conquer Jerusalem. It starts with this really strange story where the Jebusites are mocking him in verse six. It says, “The inhabitants of the land, which spake unto David saying, ‘Except though take away the blind and lame, thou shalt not come in hither.'” Scholars have struggled with that for decades, if not centuries. And we don’t really have a good answer for it. There’s a few possible theories on it, but one way or the other, the redactor actually is going to take it as a slight to David, and David is ultimately going to go in and take control of Jerusalem, the Jebusites. So ultimately he’s going to take away the blind and the lame. Some think those might have been statues on the walls that had to be taken down. Some think those may have actually been people.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:13:17 One of the things I think is crucial as we study and we learn how to study scripture is to learn what hills are worth dying on. And this is an example of a hill not worth dying on. You don’t need to know who the lame and the blind are in these verses to understand that the Lord strengthened David. David was able to capture Jerusalem, and Jerusalem then becomes the capital of the ancient kingdom.

John Bytheway: 00:13:40 This is another point that it took me a while to learn, but like in verse seven, “David took the stronghold of Zion, the same as the City of David.” So there’s an ancient city of David. And then in Jesus’ time, unto, you was born this day in the City of David, a Savior is Bethlehem, but this isn’t Bethlehem, right?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:14:00 Yep. You point out that there are many different definitions of Israel. That’s exactly true, there’s different definitions of Zion. There’s different definitions of Gentiles. And so again, these are hills not worth dying on, but it’s important to try to understand the basic context. Interestingly, Zion is actually the name of mount. It’s actually the name of a hill within Jerusalem. So when we say Mount Zion, that’s not just symbolic, that’s speaking of an actual geographic location, the same as the City of David.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:14:30 And so David goes in and is able to finally capture and begin to make that his capital. He begins to build a Fort and other things around there. Hiram, verse 11, king of Tire brings some gifts, and this is the same one that’s going to give Solomon skilled workers and material later to build the temple.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:14:50 And then you get this verse, it’s a foreshadowing, but to be very frank, I’m not quite sure we’re as solid as we could be on what the foreshadow is. Go to verse 13 with me. “And David took him more concubines and wives out of Jerusalem after he was come from Hebron. And there were yet sons and daughters born to David.” And then you’re going to get a list of some of those sons that were born to David. Now, we know David and Solomon are going to have problems when it comes to their marital relations, especially Solomon, as we’ll talk about later. And so we might look at this and say, “Ooh, foreshadowing, there’s a problem. He shouldn’t be doing this.” And there’s also a very understandable, modern feeling that plural marriage isn’t where we want to go. We know the prophets have taught that, but it’s crucial to remember that that’s not the way it always was. We have clear scriptural evidence, even of course, going to Joseph Smith, section 132, that at times the Lord does command or allow plural marriages.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:15:52 And we know from section 132 versus 38 through 39, that Joseph said in none of his marriages did David sin save in the case of Bathsheba. We’re definitely seeing a tendency towards plurality of wives. And we can say, and I believe accurately so that the Lord at times has commanded and/or allowed prophets from Abraham through Joseph Smith to take part in the practice of plural marriage. And so we can say it is possible to practice plural marriage in a way that is righteous. It becomes absolutely crucial that we not then therefore say that every instance of plural marriage or every way it was practiced is according to God’s will. Does that make sense?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:16:36 So we’re going to see that as we go forward with Solomon that at least in verse 13 with David, we know from modern revelation that the other plural marriages weren’t necessarily a problem, spiritually, righteously, though socially, who knows what was happening in those days. We don’t have enough information on it.But we do know that a tendency towards that in this case, especially when it comes to Solomon is going to head us in a direction that’s not going to be helpful.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:17:04 But at this point, we simply know David has multiple wives and has multiple children by those wives. Now, two of those children, it’s going to become interesting in verse 14. “These be the names of those that were born under him in Jerusalem Shammuah, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon.” Now, it becomes interesting because Nathan and Solomon are going to come into play in the New Testament. Luke actually has Christ being born of Nathan. Matthew has Christ being born of Solomon.

Hank Smith: 00:17:39 Interesting.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:17:40 Now, we know that that’s not physically possible. Christ couldn’t have come through both of them. So it has to be one of them. This again, brings me back to the point of choose what you’re going to hang your hat on. Choose what is going to matter most to you. It’s important to the adapters and it’s important to the gospel writers, Luke and Matthew to say, “Listen, Christ is going to come of Davidic lineage.” One has him come from this son. One has him come from that son. That’s outside of the purview of where we’re going today. But traditionally Luke’s genealogy is thought to be that of Mary’s and Matthew’s is traditionally thought to be of Joseph’s. But scholars have problematized that enough to the point where we’re not so sure that’s accurate.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:18:28 One way or the other, they follow a divergent pass. Suffice it to say, at this point, verse 14, those two sons are used by the gospel writers to say, listen, Christ comes from this lineage.

Hank Smith: 00:18:42 Mike, I would say for Jews even today, David is seen as a great figure. Whereas for Latter-day Saints, we see this could have been great, but disappointment, that’s not how Jews see David in general, especially in the days of Christ.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:18:56 Yeah. We’re going to be talking about that. And the redactors are incredibly positive towards David, even in relation to Bathsheba. They don’t whitewash the problem, they just believe that didn’t overshadow the rest that he did. And in some ways, hopefully you and I can come to the point where we can also give grace, acknowledge mistakes without completely negating all the good that is done. And David is going to do a boatload of good.

Hank Smith: 00:19:23 Isn’t it just a good principle in life, try not to define people by their worst moments?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:19:28 Yes. And don’t define people by what others say are their worst moments. We’re going to talk more about that as we go forward in this story. I love the beginning. Well, this isn’t the beginning of David’s saga. You’ve got a whole bunch in 1st Samuel that goes there, but I love the beginning even here.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:19:44 Go down with me if you would, to verse 18. After the Philistines heard that David had become king of all of Israel, they came down into the valley to say, “Okay, we’re going to take you on.” Now, remember David has a relationship with the Philistines. He’s fought with them. There’s no real great love loss going on here, right?

Hank Smith: 00:20:03 Where is Goliath, anyway?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:20:05 That’s right. So David is going to be faced with this army. Now, David, we already know he’s a very capable military leader. And that’s what he’s going to be known for. But look at verse 19. This is so beautiful and such an example for us. “And David inquired of the Lord saying, ‘Shall I go up to the Philistines? Wilt thou deliver them into mine hands?'”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:20:32 Now, before going to the Lord’s answer, I love the humility. This isn’t a boy facing Goliath for the first time or a soldier for the first time. This is a man who has succeeded wildly in his military endeavors. So he’s not a neophyte, he’s not a newbie. He is capable and able, but he still remembers his dependence on God.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:20:59 I tell my students at BYU, the fact that they got into BYU tells us that they’re capable, but when we begin to hold onto our own brilliance, we can do everything that we need to do, that’s when we get into trouble.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:21:13 Just a quick aside, I used to love it as a mission president when young missionaries were getting close to becoming seniors, when they were still juniors, but they were experienced juniors. At that point, they pretty much figured they knew what they needed to know and they probably knew more than their senior companion. And they were just chomping at the bit. Two of my favorite times in mission life were A, when they first got in country and B, when they first become seniors, because, oh my goodness, do they come to realize quickly, “You know what, we didn’t know as much as we thought we knew,” and humility strikes.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:21:50 And it’s those humble missionaries that the Lord’s able to do wonders with. And at this point, David seems to still recognize his need for the Savior for help. Look at the answer from the Lord, the last part of verse 19, “The Lord said unto David, ‘Go up, for I will doubtless deliver the Philistines into thine hands.'” How he got that answer, Urim and Thummim, voice, inspiration. We simply know that he had the revelation to go. He went and if you look at 20 through 21, it worked just like the Lord said it was going to work, very successfully.

Hank Smith: 00:22:29 It reminds me of captain Moroni when he is fighting the Amalekites, here’s a guy who knows quite a bit about war. And it says, I’m in Alma 43:23. “Moroni, knowing of the prophecies of Alma sent certain men unto him, desiring him, that he should inquire of the Lord whether the armies of the Nephrites should go.” I remember writing in my scriptures, who knows more about war, Alma or Moroni? Moroni could say, “I’m not going to talk to that guy about war. He doesn’t know what he is talking about with war, maybe spiritual stuff,” but he relies on the prophet, even in his own expertise. To me, that’s a beautiful thing, that you can rely on a prophet, even though you think to yourself, “I’ve studied this more.”

John Bytheway: 00:23:13 I’ve got in my scriptures there, because he does two things. He sends spies to watch them. The question he asks is, “Wither shall we go to defend ourselves?” which is a great question to ask, to apply that to our families today. Where will we defend ourselves against worldly influences? But he sends spies and he asks the prophet. And I put in my margin, faith and works there. Having a prophet is better than Google Earth or an SR-71 or satellite reconnaissance. But he also asks God. So send spies and ask God and does both. But that’s a good parallel because he’s asking God, “What do I do here?”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:23:54 Do your part, but make sure you realize what God’s part is.

John Bytheway: 00:23:58 Yeah. And like you said, Dr. Goodman, “Go up, I will doubtless deliver the Philistines.” This is something God is doing. He’s not David saying I got this.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:24:08 Exactly. The Philistines are going to come up again. And even though David just experienced this amazing victory, look what he does in 23. “When David inquired of the Lord, he said,” this is the Lord speaking, “‘this time, thou shalt not go up, but fetch a compass behind them and come upon them over against the mulberry tree.'” So there’s a mulberry grove there somewhere and they’re to go behind them. And so no frontal attack here, just go behind it. And I love this. “Let it be when thou hearest the sound of the going in the tops of the mulberry trees that then now shall bestir thyself, for then shall the Lord go out before thee to smite the host of the Philistines.” So wait behind the Mulberry trees until you hear the wind come. When you hear the wind come and rustle those leaves, that’s when you’re to go.

John Bytheway: 00:25:01 I want to be in the room with the King James translators right now. “Fetch a compass behind them,” meaning is that part of the word encompass? So it’s circle around them. Is that what you think that means?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:25:15 Must be. Must be. Come around them is definitely what it means. That’s what the Hebrew means. And wait, “Wait until I give the signal.” And of course David obeys and as he did so, he again ends up smiting the Philistines from Geba until they come to Gazer. And so another great victory.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:25:35 I love the beginning here. We were talking before we started about the fact that these are tragic chapters. These are heavy. In both David and Solomon’s case we’re going to see tremendous mistakes made. Tremendous not meaning good, meaning very bad. In both cases with David and Solomon, you have this tremendous, beautiful humility, where they start fully understanding their dependence on the Lord and going to him and continuing to keep that connection with God, that’s such an important lesson. And then as we’ll see as we go forward, it’s when that connection ceases to be essential in their life, that they begin to make the mistakes that they make.

Hank Smith: 00:26:15 These chapters can serve as a warning to be careful. Don’t let this happen to you. Look how humble he is. He inquires of the Lord. He inquires of the Lord. He trusts in the Lord. You just want to say, “David, keep doing that.”

John Bytheway: 00:26:27 Hank, I like what you said about a warning, because I’ve heard it said that when you see a name in the scriptures, it’s either an example or a warning. And sometimes we have those that start as an example and end as a warning. So here’s the first paragraph in the Come, Follow Me manual, “King David’s reign started out with so much promise. His undaunted faith in defeating Goliath was legendary. As king, he secured Jerusalem as his capital and united Israel. The kingdom had never been stronger and yet David gave into temptation and lost his spiritual power.”

John Bytheway: 00:27:00 And then it says, “The reign of David’s son, Solomon, likewise started out with so much promise. His divinely received wisdom and discernment were legendary. As king, he extended Israel’s borders and built a magnificent temple to the Lord. The kingdom had never been stronger, and yet Solomon foolishly allowed his heart to be turned away to other gods. What can we learn from these tragic stories?” So that’s how the manual paints that is to me, that was an endure to the end message in there. Your past successes are great, but stay on the covenant path.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:27:32 It’s all about relationships. When we keep that relationship bound covenant connected to Christ, it not only protects us from the errors that we might make, it gives us the power to do all the good that the Lord needs us and wants us to do and that we need to do. And so it comes back to, are we keeping that covenant connection? Are we keeping that binding tie with God? And even after David, we have a little less information on Solomon. Even after David’s tragic mistake, he’s going to spend the rest of his life trying to make it up and showing humility and wanting that.

Hank Smith: 00:28:12 Let’s keep going. I love it.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:28:13 All right. Chapter six, we have basically two things happening. We’ve got the arc being brought into Jerusalem from Gibeah, which is where it’s been residing for a while since it got back from the Philistines. And then we have David’s dance and Michal and David’s disagreement. It’s beautiful to me that in the beginning of this chapter, David wants to bring the arc into the new capital of the kingdom, because as I’m sure, well, I know, because I’ve listened to your podcast before, your audience knows very well that the arc is intended to be representative of the presence of God. And so David’s basically saying, “We want to do this right. We want to have God in our midst.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:28:54 They go to take the arc and bring it from Gibeah and bring it up to Jerusalem. But of course, as our readers will know and listeners will know, a tragic event happens in the travel there. We get the story of Uzzah, and it’s such a heart-wrenching story. But again, I think it’s a powerful one to teach some important scripture study skills. Let’s just go ahead and take us down to they’re walking down the path, go to verse six. “When they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put forth his hand to the arc of God and took hold of it, for the oxen shook it.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:29:33 So it looks like from what is written by the redactors, it looks like he’s simply trying to steady an arc, right? And that very well might be what’s happening. But in verse seven, it doesn’t temporarily end well for him. Verse seven, “And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah, and God smote him there for his error and there he died by the arc of God.” And so it appears that it was fairly instantaneous that he died. Now, again, readers and listeners will know that the arc was only to be carried by specific Levitical priesthood holders. We struggle with stories like this. Rightly so.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:30:18 One of the things that I try to teach my students in all of my classes is you have to know the character of God to be able to correctly interpret any scriptural story, modern or ancient. And we know God loves his children, and we know that God is forgiving, and we know that God is merciful and gracious and wants to help all of his children be saved.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:30:41 So the first thing we would know about the story of Uzzah is Uzzah is not damned. Nothing in this story would tell us that Uzzah has lost salvation or that he’s damned. Having said that, in this life, there’s sometimes consequences that are, we call them larger than life, they take us beyond this life. And at times tragedies strike either accidental or based on our own actions that might take us out of this mortal sphere.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:31:09 I remember listening to Kerry Muhlestein once where he was talking about when God zots people, when he takes someone from this side of the veil to the other side of the veil. Kerry spoke of it in the context of, it’s kind of like a parent saying, “I need to take you to your room right now. What’s happening right now is not going to work for you or for others, and I need to remove you from this situation. I’m going to put you in your room.” But I loved what Kerry said, which is, “Parents never put you in your room to leave you there.” God doesn’t take someone from this mortal life and say, “Now you did bad. You’re damned for eternity.” God’s desire for Uzzah as well as all of us is our exaltation, our salvation.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:31:52 Though Uzzah may have been removed from this temporal sphere, from mortality, we don’t want to have Uzzah damned, whether his error was simply didn’t think straight and touched what he shouldn’t touch, or whether he was trying to use authority he didn’t have. And different authors have gone back and forth with that. But know the character of God, know God’s love for Uzzah is the same as his love for us. He’s going to do all he can to save us.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:32:22 Now, with that, there are lessons to be learned. I love probably the person who’s spoken most on this prophetically was President David O. McKay. He was trying to teach the lesson, don’t try to go outside the sphere that the Lord has given you to work. So if you’re a Sunday school teacher, stop pretending you’re the Bishop. Stay within your stewardship. But listen to what he said, because there’s a powerful lesson, no matter what exactly Uzzah’s motivation was. This is what president McKay said. “It is a little dangerous for us to go out of our own sphere and try unauthoritatively to direct the efforts of a brother. You remember the case of Uzaah who stretched forth his hand to steady the arc. He seemed justified when the oxen stumbled in putting forth his hand to steady that symbol of the covenant. We today think his punishment was very severe.” I’d say so. And then even present in the case is.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:33:21 “Be that as it may, yes, it does look pretty severe. The incident conveys a lesson of life. Let us look around us and see how quickly men who attempt unauthoritatively to steady the arc die spiritually. Their souls become embittered, their minds distorted, their judgment faulty, their spirit depressed. Such is pitiable condition of men who, neglecting their own responsibilities, spend their time in finding fault with others.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:33:54 Now, we don’t have to proof text Uzzah to get there. We don’t have to say, “Yes, see Uzzah, he was trying to use…” We don’t know. We just don’t have enough in the text to know exactly where his heart was there. But what President McKay is doing is saying, listen, we can draw lesson from this and the lesson he’s drawing, think of how pertinent that is to today. How many people in our day and age in the blogosphere, on the internet, in social media, sometimes in Sunday school are seeking to direct the work of the Lord, and to inform the world that the prophets are nice old men, but they’re missing it on this or they’re good, but they’re bigoted on that or they’re right, but they’ll figure this out as they get a little more wise. We have this tendency to want to put the prophets in a place or their place and take their role.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:34:50 Now, we do not believe in prophetic infallibility, but we do believe in God’s infallibility. And we believe that God directs his prophets. Not that they can never say or think in error, but if they’re in error, it won’t be our job to correct them, it would be the Lord’s job to correct them. And we’re going to get a great example of that in our next chapter with Nathan. Let’s be nice to Uzzah. We’ll give him the benefit of the doubt. I’ve always found reading scripture or listening to others with charity is not only nice, but more often than not, is more accurate. We can look at Uzzah, give him the benefit of the doubt and still say, “You know what, there’s some things we can learn from this.” And that’s what prophets have done ever since.

Hank Smith: 00:35:39 I have written in my scriptures here, Mike, quote from Brigham Young, he said, “The person full of light and intelligence knows that God can steady his own arc.” This is about faith in the Lord. It’s just the idea of you have your own stewardship. Stay inside your stewardship. We saw that last year, John in the Doctrine and Covenants. So often the Lord said, “Yes, I can give you personal revelation,” but it’s within bounds. It’s within boundaries. Your personal revelation is for your specific stewardship.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:36:11 And that’s true, even if our education or background level is greater. I had a great lesson taught to me probably 25 years ago in CES. I was an institute teacher back in Oregon. Love Oregon. We were being taught by our leaders at that time, and there was a real strong tendency of a full-time church educational system, S&I, people to try to push priesthood leaders to move the program to what we knew was more effective, move from home study to early morning, move from early morning to release time. And we had the numbers. We could show this program’s better than that program, statistically speaking.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:36:52 But I remember Tom Tyler was the one who actually did this. Tom Tyler teaching us, they thought they, the priesthood leaders, those who have the keys following the inspiration they receive will do more good for their ward and stake members than any amount of good we as professional educators can do. But remembering whose stewardship is whose. So we’ve been religious educators for a few years, one or two or 30 or 40. And we’ve spent our life studying, studying scripture, studying things. I do social science. So statistically speaking, I can tell you the outcomes of different things.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:37:32 It’s very important for us as religious educators to remember, yes, we might know more of the Hebrew or the Greek, or might know more of the social science, but those who hold the keys are the ones that the Lord has tasked with guiding Israel in our day. We can have faith and do our part.

Hank Smith: 00:37:52 This does seem harsh. We’ve got to leave that up to the Lord, because I know my daughter will read this and go, “Man-“

John Bytheway: 00:38:00 “All he tried to do is make sure it didn’t fall.” And who knows are we getting the whole story or not? So I love that. We can find an application, but let’s leave that to the Lord. And someday we’ll have the full story. Reminds me of President Dallin H. Oaks that talked about final judgements, which we are forbidden to make and intermediate judgements, which we’re commanded to make, but upon righteous principles. And we don’t really know. Let’s leave that final judgment. Let’s leave Uzzah in the hands of God, who you already expressed is kind and loving and merciful. And let’s just draw the lesson from it for ourselves. I like the way you put that.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:38:40 And I like what Hank said there. We can acknowledge the dissonance that something like this causes. I remember once coming in the bedroom with my daughter. She was reading the Book of Mormon and she said, “Daddy, I don’t like the Book of Mormon. I like the Doctrine and Covenants.” She’s a little girl. We’re talking about a nine year old. I don’t remember, she’s young. And I said, “Sweetheart, why?” She was noticing how in the Book of Mormon, it speaks harshly against sin and harshly against actions that are wrong. And she was saying, “Daddy, I know I’m not perfect. Is this the way God sees me?” And I wrapped my arm around her and said, “No, let’s talk about the character of the God we worship. He loves you. He doesn’t look on sin with acceptance, but he loves you. Yes, we can acknowledge there’s harsh stories here, but let’s not let that color our perception of the nature of the very God we worship.”

Hank Smith: 00:39:38 Mike, I think it’s important to note here that God has boundaries. We don’t want a boundaryless God, who just says, “Hey, rules don’t matter. Commandments don’t matter.” So there are boundaries. And we’re going to see throughout this entire lesson, aren’t we?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:39:53 Yes.

Hank Smith: 00:39:54 That God has boundaries in behavior so we can learn.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:39:57 Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Let’s continue on. As Uzzah’s tragic end comes, it really freaks David out, scares him and he says, “You know what? Maybe I’m not ready to have this here in Jerusalem.” And so he asks it to be carried aside to the house of Obededom who’s a Gittite, so somewhere in this land. And they leave the arc there for a few months. David looks and says, “Oh wow, God’s blessing Obededom. Maybe it’s not so bad.” And so he goes, and he says, “Okay, let’s bring that arc all the way back in.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:40:33 And so they start to bring it in. As they start to bring it into the city, David goes before the arc, verse 14, “And danced before the Lord with all his might. And David was girded with a linen ephod.” The joyful dance. He’s dancing before the Lord. We know this is going to cause some problems with Michal in a moment. But it’s curious that he’s in a linen ephod because we would normally associate that with priesthood. And Jewish commentaries actually do point to that and talk about the concept that David seems to at times take priestly responsibilities upon himself. We’ll talk about that as we go a little bit further in the chapters.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:41:18 But one way or the other, he’s girded about with this linen ephod, he’s dancing, he brings it in. Saul’s daughter, Michal, his wife sees him dancing and is not amused, so to speak. And so they bring the arc in, they offer burnt offerings, they offer peace offerings. David goes home, go down to verse 20. “Then David returned to bless his household and Michal, the daughter of Saul came out to meet David and said, ‘How glorious was the king of Israel today who uncovered himself today in the eyes of the handmaids of the servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovered themselves.'” This is not a happy wife. She was bothered by what she saw.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:42:04 So important to remember. We are getting the story 400 to 500 years later through the eyes of the redactor. We do not know what David’s dance was like. We don’t know how modest or immodest or appropriate or inappropriate. What we do know from the story is that Michal was not happy with what happened. This is tragic. Look at verse 21, David’s response. You can tell there is a relational problem going on here. Verse 21, “David said to Michal, ‘It was before the Lord, which chose me before thy father,'” There’s a little dig to start, “‘and before all his house to appoint me ruler over the people of the Lord over Israel, therefore I will play before the Lord.'” So he’s claiming, “I’m not dancing for the girls. I’m dancing for God.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:42:58 But then verse 22, “And I will yet be more vile than thus. I will be base in mine own sight,” which sounds humble. But then look at this next part, “and of the maid servants which thou has spoken of, of them shall I be had in honor.” We don’t know the dynamics of this marriage, but as a person with a PhD in marriage and family, I think I can safely say, this is not a healthy relationship dynamic at this moment, at least. And then in fact, the redactors, knowing the future, of course, throw in, “Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul had no children unto the day of her death.” We don’t know if that was as a result of this fight or what caused this.

Hank Smith: 00:43:39 Wow. This is a great little application here of learning how to have a little bit of conflict without contention.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:43:48 Yes. We can learn some lessons. And so again, we can do that without harshly judging either David or his wife.

Hank Smith: 00:43:58 Yeah. You’re a marriage and family PhD. You’re an expert. Tell us how David and Michal, how this could have gone better because I think we said this earlier, we can have conflict without contention, but it seems man, Michal says one thing and that maybe upsets David. And so he responds with, “Not only am I going to do that, I’m going to do this too.” And just kind of spirals.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:44:26 The research on this is actually pretty straightforward. And it doesn’t take a PhD to get there. You’ve heard this statement before. I think it’s a Coveyism. “Seek to understand before seeking to be understood.” That’s the opposite of what you see happening here. You have hurt and hurt leading to striking out instead of, let’s replay the tape and say, “Okay, I can tell that my sweetheart is feeling wounded, is feeling hurt,” and trying to understand what is it that caused that hurt. And by the way, as we know in the research as well as those who do professional counseling, often the hurt manifests itself, not based on what’s happening at that time, but prior hurt, prior relational challenges.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:45:12 And so that’s where I’d say we don’t have the background to know exactly what led to this fight, but one way or the other, it would’ve been wiser probably for both David and Michal to try to understand what the other person intended, instead of what they simply received from the outward expression. Most of the time, even when we’re struggling, we’re not trying to hurt another person. Our intent isn’t necessarily evil, but our actions can be hurtful.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:45:47 And so in this case, if David and his wife would have sought to understand what the other person was thinking and feeling and why, and empathized with the real, even if there was some parts of that that weren’t based on what you intended, just by feeling understood it lowers the temperature, and then allows couples to begin to talk through issues in a way that leads to what most of us ultimately experience, but without all the pain. Reconciliation.

John Bytheway: 00:46:17 I hear it like a Book of Mormon example, “Lehi, you’re a visionary man. You’ve led us out here in the wilderness. My sons are going to go talk to Laban and they’re no more.” And Lehi doesn’t say, “How dare you.” He agrees with her. “I know I am a visionary man,” but you can almost hear, “but sweetheart, I’ve obtained a land of promise. Will you just hang on with me here?” And pretty soon the boys come over the hill and then Sarai says, “Now I know the Lord’s commanded my husband.” And it’s a nice moment for Lehi, I think.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:46:55 John, you probably found the absolute perfect antithesis to this. Lehi truly does, really fun in an ancient context, model what modern therapists try to help individuals do.

Hank Smith: 00:47:10 I wonder if Michal is still mourning her father and David just doesn’t see that. Like you said, Mike, he even takes a dig at her father. “Chose me before thy father. I’ll be more vile than thus.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:47:23 And you’ve also got the situation that she’s childless. And we know that in these times, as you’ve studied with Hannah and others, there’s some heartache and pain that comes from not being able to have children together. And so there’s so many possibilities here as to what caused the challenge. We would simply say that based on the text we have right now, it didn’t go the way that we would generally hope it would go.

Hank Smith: 00:47:47 And this can work not just in marriages, but in any relationship. Seek first to understand. Try to understand before trying to be understood. I like that we brought in brother Covey there.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:47:59 Lehi, what a perfect example. I want to be like Lehi. I want to be that way for my sweetheart, for my daughter, for my son, for our students to seek to empathize, understand, even acknowledge what can be acknowledged. Lehi didn’t say, “You’re right, I’m being rotten.” He acknowledged all the pain, he acknowledged, “I am a visionary man. That’s my nature. But there’s a reason why I’m trying to do this.” And that’s where the understanding can begin to be built.

Hank Smith: 00:48:33 Don’t be so quick to get offended and to go right into defense mode. Oh man, I love to see real people in real relationships in the scriptures, especially the Old Testament. It sure it gets kind of messy. How many times in our reading do we go, “Oh David.” I wonder if the Lord’s the same way with me. “Oh, what are you doing? What are you doing?”

John Bytheway: 00:48:54 He face palms whenever I pray, I think. “Johnny, Johnny, Johnny.”

Hank Smith: 00:49:01 Oh, John.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:49:02 Chapter seven, I love this chapter. It’s very simple, not a lot that we’re going to dig into, but I love the example of what happens with a prophet. In this situation, David, he’s settled in, nicely into his home in Jerusalem. Verse two, “See now, I dwell in a house of cedar, but the arc of God dwelleth within curtains.” And so what David proposes to the prophet, Nathan is, “Let me build a house to God.” Now, the thought of building a house to God is a beautiful thing. As a general principle, you’d say, this is good. And Nathan encourages it. Verse three, “Nathan said to the king, ‘Go. Do all that is in thine heart for the Lord is with thee.'”

Hank Smith: 00:49:47 Quick note, this isn’t the same Nathan that we talked about earlier that’s the son of David.

John Bytheway: 00:49:53 This is Nate.

Hank Smith: 00:49:54 This is Nate. That was Nate.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:50:01 There you go. So we got Nathan saying to the king, “Oh, that sounds good. You should build a house. This is a good thing.” Well, that night the Lord comes to Nathan and says, “I have a little bit of a different plan here.” If you go to verse four, “It came to pass that night that the word of the Lord came to Nathan.” And then the Lord explains to Nathan, “Nope, David’s not to build me a house. We’re going to let his son do it,” and I’ll give you some reasons later.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:50:27 But this is what I love about this. We sometimes in our modern era, especially struggle with the concept of prophetic infallibility where prophets aren’t even people. They’re not allowed to breathe, eat, have bad days, have a toothache, get grumpy. And we know Joseph was very clear that he wasn’t perfect. This isn’t necessarily popular in our day, but he also said, “I’m not perfect, but there’s no error in the revelations that I’ve given to you.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:50:56 Well, you have a situation here where David comes to Nathan and says, “I want to build a temple.” Nathan thought, “Hmm, that’s good. Go do it.” But it wasn’t the Lord’s will. So the Lord came to the prophet and said, “Can I give you a little new instruction?” And I love Nathan and David’s response to this. Nathan comes to David and says, “Nope, not going to happen.” We’ll go down and read a few of the verses, but, “No, it’s not going to happen. Maybe for your son, but not for you.” Nathan immediately takes the Lord’s direction and turns around and gives it to David. David’s bummed. He wanted to build a temple, but he says, “Okay, I won’t do it.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:51:36 But it reminded me have a teaching from Elder Richard G. Scott that is not necessarily in the same context. I don’t want to proof text them together, but the principle I think is beautiful. Elder Scott was speaking of our experiences in life when we’re seeking revelation and we’re not getting it. How should we feel about that, and what does it mean? And he teaches some concepts of revelation that I think are crucial and that in some ways, Nathan exemplifies here. This is Elder Scott. By the way, it’s general conference May, 2007. He says, “What do you do when you have prepared carefully, have prayed fervently, waited a reasonable time for a response and still do not reveal an answer?”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:52:18 Now, I teach the Eternal Family class at BYU. That’s my primary class, who to marry, when to marry. These are so heavily on our students’ mind. And so most of my students will take this and go right to the marriage decision, but it really applies in any other aspect of life. But the answer that Elder Scott gives is counterintuitive. Most people wouldn’t think about this in the beginning. He says, “What should we feel about this?” He says, “You may want to express thanks when that occurs, for it is evidence of his trust. When you are living worthy and the choice is consistent with the saviors teaching, and you need to act, proceed with trust.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:52:59 And then this powerful teaching. And this is what I think applies to Nathan’s situation, Nathan and David, “As you are sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit, one of two things will certainly occur at the appropriate time. Either the stupor of thought will come, indicating an improper choice, or the peace or the burning of the bosom will be felt confirming that your choice was correct.” And then listen to this, “When you are living righteously and acting with trust, God will not let you proceed too far without warning impressions if you have made the wrong decision.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:53:41 Think of the applicability of that, both to Nathan’s situation and to ours. Nathan gave a common sense, normally right answer, but it wasn’t what the Lord’s will was. So the Lord came to him and immediately said, “No, thank you for trying. That wasn’t right. Let me give you the right answer.” But to me, the power in this comes for you and I today. How many issues are being debated today by our brothers and sisters, friends and foes you could say, saying that, “Prophets are wrong, pick your issue.” They just haven’t figured out. And when they pass away, someone will come and they’ll fix it all.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:54:18 But this principle I think is so powerful. When we are sensitive to the promptings of the Spirit, God will not let us proceed too far without a warning impression. I think we can testify. I testify, I say what I know to be true, that God is leading his prophets. No, they are not perfect and yes, they can have their own opinions, but the Lord’s not going to allow his servants, the prophets to guide us and take us off the path in a way that is going to endanger our progression towards God. I think there’s a powerful principle that Elder Scott’s teaching and that is trust the Lord to guide. Trust the Lord to guide his prophets. Trust the Lord that if we do make an error he’ll course correct for us and get us going. And he’s not going to let us go too far down that road before that happens.

Hank Smith: 00:55:12 That’s a great principle here, Mike, is that David’s like, “Let’s make a temple.” And Nathan says, “Sure, great idea.” And then you get the Lord quickly, “No, no, no, no, no. Don’t do that.” And they both respond to in kind, it looks like, with, “Okay.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:55:28 They really do. Perhaps we should be following that example.

John Bytheway: 00:55:33 Am I reading this right? But then in verse 12 and 13, “When thy days be fulfilled, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels. I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name.” So this is the answer. I love that he is getting an answer. “No, that’s not for you.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:55:54 It’s going to come through a sense, Solomon, of course, as we know from the story. It’s not just that Solomon’s going to be allowed to build a temple, but that God will build a house through Solomon, meaning David’s house will forever be established.

Hank Smith: 00:56:10 Family.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:56:10 Exactly, exactly. Verse 16, “And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established forever before thee, thy throne shall be established forever.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:22 It’s almost like we get here, the Lord says, “I’m the one who builds houses, not you.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:56:27 It is. It is, exactly. And it’s interesting because the Lord says here that, “Listen, I’m going to establish your house and it’s going to be through Solomon.” But remember, agency is still an issue. And that doesn’t mean Solomon is guaranteed to always be perfect. As we know, he’s going to make some real serious errors. And it’s interesting. Go back to verse 14, if you would. This is Jehovah speaking to David about his son, “I will be his,” Solomon’s, “father. He shall be my son. If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him,” and then look at this, “with the rod of men and with the stripes of the children of men.”

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:57:06 And I thought to myself, “Yep, that’s so often the way it is.” When we make mistakes, God doesn’t generally have to zot us. He doesn’t have to lightening bolt us. The consequences of our actions often are what the Lord uses to teach us the error of our way and to help us understand we’re going to see that in spades when it comes to the story of David and Bathsheba.

Hank Smith: 00:57:26 Consequences are good instructors, aren’t they?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 00:57:31 It’s the Lord’s way, isn’t it?

John Bytheway: 00:57:33 I loved verse 18, “Then went king David in and sat before the Lord and he said, ‘Who am I, oh Lord God?'” I just think if we could get each of us to ask that question. I remember just recently, president Nelson talking to the young adults. Remember that where he said, “You’re a child of God, you’re a child of the covenant and a disciple of Christ,” and wanted them to remember those three eternal identities. And that question, “Who am I?” I think that can be answered by patriarchal blessings. I just love that David would ask that question, “What am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to be? What would you have me to be?”

John Bytheway: 00:58:23 And in fact, I had Elder Monte Brough commenting on this verse in April, 1995 general conference, Elder Brough said, “Among the magnificent and abundant teachings of president Howard W. Hunter is this assertion. The greatest search of our time is the search for personal identity and for human dignity.” Then he said, “This search for personal identity is essentially a search for role models that can become instructive in the conduct of our lifestyles. With only a few exceptions, a young person cannot find adequate role models among those in athletics, entertainment, or commercial music. Not only do these public figures fail to provide positive examples, but they are often the exact inverse of the type of role models that are acceptable to most of us.

John Bytheway: 00:59:14 Access to these contemporary icons is expensive and unproductive. We are almost always disappointed when we come to witness the shallow and murky standards by which the public heaps its praise. No wonder the public areas of so many cities and towns are crowded with young people who are possessed with these same shallow and murky standards of personal behavior.

John Bytheway: 00:59:35 Yet there is an abundance of role models who can be found much closer and who can have much deeper influence upon each one of us. Most of us with relatively little effort and much less cost can provide for our families, a veritable list of important role models. This list can be created from a modest search into the lives of our ancestors.”

John Bytheway: 00:59:59 I thought that was fascinating, but I just love the question, “Who am I, oh Lord God?” and don’t you think he’s eager to answer that question for us?

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 01:00:10 Isn’t that the humility that we hope all of us will exemplify? It’s again, what we see with David and Solomon. As they start, they recognize their need, their dependence on God. He’s just realizing the difference between he and God. “Who am I, God, in comparison with you?”

John Bytheway: 01:00:27 I just love that every week our young women are standing up and saying, “I am a beloved daughter of heavenly parents with a divine nature and eternal destiny.” And we have young men standing up and saying, “I am a beloved son of God and he has a work for me to do.” Imagine if every teenager in the world could stand up and say, “This is who I am, and this is what I believe. And this is what I will do, this is what I will not do.” It’d change the world. I just love the question there, “Who am I, oh Lord God?” and I think he wants to answer that for us. And the best answers we get are within the gospel and the scriptures and the prophet.

Hank Smith: 01:01:08 Excellent. I wanted to add here before we moved on, Mike, was this idea of David wanting to build a temple is a good revelation.

John Bytheway: 01:01:16 Good desire.

Hank Smith: 01:01:17 It’s just, the timing is off a little bit. I’ve noticed that sometimes we can be a little bit frustrated when we have a good revelation, but the timing is off. “Why doesn’t this happen in the church? Why doesn’t this happen in the church? Why are we not moving forward with this?” Let the Lord be in charge of his timing where he says, “Yeah, building a temple is a good idea. It’s a good idea, but not yet. Not yet.” Let’s be okay with not yet.

Dr. Michael A. Goodman: 01:01:41 Not yet, and in this case, not by you. And so sometimes it’s not going to work the way we think or that we want. But if we truly come to know… This comes back to what we started with. If we know God, if we know his character, we know his relationship to us and his perfections, we can trust that he knows best how to move his own work forward and we, how to move us forward towards our own exaltation.

Hank Smith: 01:02:08 He knows his work.

John Bytheway: 01:02:13 Please join us for part two of this podcast.