John Bytheway: 00:01 Welcome to part two with Dr. Casey Griffiths. Acts, chapter six through nine.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 00:07 Paul shows up in Acts nine, although there’s still important stories told about Peter and the other disciples, he runs away with the story here. A large part of the rest of the gospel of Acts is the story of Paul, his work, and then a lot of the theology of the New Testament comes from Paul’s writings as he reaches out to people to explain concepts and teach. He’s just maybe not a golden investigator, but man, exactly the sort of person that the Lord had prepared to come into the church to do a mighty, mighty work. And help a lot of people from a lot of different backgrounds identify with and come unto Christ.

Hank Smith: 00:44 Fascinating that he becomes such a major, major figure. You just never know with a convert. You just never know with someone you’re teaching. It’s like Samuel Smith giving that copy of the Book of Mormon to Rhoda Green, and that ends up in the hands of Brigham Young and changes the entire church.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 01:02 Yeah, small and simple things. Small and simple things. But before we dive into Saul’s story, can I give him a little backstory here?

Hank Smith: 01:09 Please do.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 01:10 He gives us a few samples of his backstory in different writings of the New Testament. For instance, in Acts 26, because he’s going to tell his conversion narrative three times in the Book of Acts. Luke writes it down three times. Acts 26:5. He says, “My manner of life for my youth, which was at the first among my known nation of Jerusalem, know all the Jews which knew me from the beginning if they would testify after the straightest sect of our religion live, die a Pharisee.” This guy is a Pharisee. He is one of the people who he’s complicit in Stephen’s death. He was probably okay with Christ’s death, but he’s basically saying, hey, you know where I came from?

  01:51 In another passage he talks about studying with Gamaliel, who’s this really famous Jewish rabbi. And it seems like, because Acts 22 calls him a young man, that he’s probably some sort of prodigy. He’s studying this stuff as a teenager and a young man. In Galatians, chapter one, he says, “You have heard of my conversation in times past in the Jews religion, how beyond measure I persecuted the Church of God. And wasted it and profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in my donation being more exceedingly zealous than the traditions of my father’s.”

Hank Smith: 02:29 I was good at it.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 02:30 I was really good at this. Actually, we don’t know in what sense he means profit, but he’s basically like, I was a big success. I was better than anybody else at this. And this is where that word that we’ve been using a lot for Paul comes up, he’s zealous. That’s why I would pull back a little bit and say, yeah, Paul’s doing bad stuff, but he’s doing bad stuff for good motives. He’s not like Simon. He’s doing what he thinks is right. We would say a zealous missionary is a good thing. Paul would say, I was a Pharisee. Whatever thou art, act well thy part. I was Phariseeing up the place as best I could, and doing what I thought was right when suddenly I got thrown this huge, huge curve ball. And in all these statements there is a tinge of regret.

  03:20 In fact, one of the most touching things Paul writes is in 1 Corinthians 15, he’s talking about witnesses of the resurrection. And he says this, this is verse eight in 1 Corinthians 15. “Last of all he was seen of me also, as one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that I’m not meant to be called an apostle because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God, I am what I am. And his grace was bestowed upon me was not in vain. I’ve labored more abundantly than they all, by the grace of God, which is with me.”

  03:58 He looks back over the stage in his life with regret, feels like he’s the least of the apostles because what he’s done. But we have to give Saul, because he’s called Saul here, a little credit that he at least was trying to do what he thought was right. He’s not an evil person, he just was raised with incorrect principles, and strived as best he could to live the truth as he knew it. That’s why I think the Savior is willing to extend mercy to him, and the Savior deals with him more mercifully than maybe some of the other nefarious figures that show up in the Book of Acts.

John Bytheway: 04:35 Yeah, I think he’s trying to prevent blasphemy from what he believes is blasphemy. And I guess that excuse was used to execute Abinadi as well, he false prophesied or he was blasphemous. But isn’t that what he’s trying to prevent, his blasphemy?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 04:53 Yeah. And in the Book of Hosea, they go out of their way to point out that King Noah is hypocritical and he is wicked, and he’s not living the commandments. In the Book of Acts, Luke seems to go out of his way to point out that Saul wasn’t being hypocritical, he was doing what he thought was right and striving as best he could to live the commandments. He just didn’t know the full story. If anybody accused Paul of converting from Judaism to Christianity, I think Paul would be the first one to say, “I never converted. I consider myself Jewish. I just finally found out what it all really meant. The truth of my religion was fully revealed to me, but I’ve always tried to live my religion to the best of my ability, even in those days when I persecuted the church.”

John Bytheway: 05:39 I found the Messiah that my religion prophesied about.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 05:42 Yes, Stephen would say he found the real temple, and learned the meaning behind the temple they built with hands. He came to know what the point was of all these prophets, prophecies, and all the things that he had learned from the time he was a little boy.

Hank Smith: 05:57 This discussion reminds me of, do you remember Javert in Les Misérables?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 06:05 That’s a great parallel. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 06:06 Wholeheartedly believes he is doing the right thing until the very end. He doesn’t have the turnaround that Paul has. But I remember growing up and listening to the music and seeing the play, and reading the book and thinking, how fascinating that both men in this story believe they’re the good guy. What does Javert say? “I am the law, and the law will not be mocked. I’ll do the right thing.”

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 06:34 I think that’s the kind of thing Paul would say too. What makes Paul maybe a greater figure than Javert, and I know Javert is not a real person. Is that when Javert is confronted with the truth that what he’s been doing hasn’t been right, that he’s persecuting a just person, he can’t handle it. He takes his life. Paul does a complete 180. He’s willing to fully admit that he’s wrong. I’m the least of the apostles. But now that I know what’s right, I’m going to do what’s right. I’m going to be zealous in the cause of good because, before I was zealous, I just didn’t know it was for the wrong cause. He has enough greatness of soul that he recognizes when he is on the wrong track and that he needs to repent.

John Bytheway: 07:19 And so quickly. So quickly too. When as we read what happens to him, he doesn’t argue with the vision at all.

Hank Smith: 07:29 I always have thought of Acts chapter nine as Saul waking up one day thinking today’s going to be just like every other day, persecuting Christians, going to find them. And man, at the end of that day he’s probably thinking, I did not think. I did not see that coming. I guess he literally can’t see at the end.

John Bytheway: 07:50 Yeah, and it’s not persecuting Christians, it’s defending… Maybe that’s how Paul-

Hank Smith: 07:55 Judaism.

John Bytheway: 07:56 I’m defending Judaism, that’s what I’m doing.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 07:58 Casting down heretics, defending the truth, he’s zealous for what’s right. It says, “As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly they’re shined around him a light from heaven. He fell to earth and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? He said, who art thou Lord? And the Lord said, I’m Jesus, whom thou persecutest. It’s hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he, trembling and astonished, said, Lord, what will thou have me do? The Lord said unto him, arise, go into the city and it shall be told thee what thou should do. And the men with surety with him stood speechless, hearing no voice and seeing no man.”

  08:35 Now, this story Paul’s going to tell two more times in the Book of Acts, Acts 22 and Acts 26. There’s slight variations in it, but again, it’s one of those things. One day he’s the worst enemy of the Christians. The next day because of his greatness of soul, he accepts correction and changes direction and becomes the greatest missionary of all time.

Hank Smith: 08:59 Just in a few verses, it all turns around. I think that’s a great message for anyone who really wants to turn things around, that you can.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 09:06 Just stop going in the wrong direction, and then you change and do things. And the hint here that Stephen may have affected him. And that was happening in the Savior’s own words in verse five, “It’s hard for thee. It’s hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

Hank Smith: 09:22 Maybe something’s been inside of him stewing.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 09:25 Something’s been bugging him, and he’s been getting all these indications that maybe he wasn’t on the right track, and it was getting hard for him. And the Savior gently says, I see your internal struggle, let me explain to you why there is a struggle for you to live your religion. It’s because there’s more to it than you’ve been taught. You just didn’t know the whole story, Saul.

Hank Smith: 09:50 I’m also fascinated by the Lord’s question, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?” And you’re going… I think Saul asked the question, “What? When did I persecute you?” It seems that the Lord takes the persecution of his saints very personally. And as much as you have done unto the least of these, my brethren,  you have done it unto me. Why are you persecuting me? In persecuting them you have persecuted me. Does that make sense?

John Bytheway: 10:21 President David O. McKay said something beautiful about what we were just talking about. It’s hard for thee. He said, “Perhaps during those few days of comparative leisure, Saul began to wonder whether what he was doing was right or not. Perhaps the shining face of the dying Stephen and the martyr’s last prayer began to sink more deeply into his soul than it had done before. Little children’s cries for their parents whom Saul had bound began to pierce his soul more keenly and make him feel miserably unhappy, as he looked forward to more experiences of that kind in Damascus. Perhaps he wondered whether the work of the Lord, if he were really engaged in it, would make him feel so restless and bitter. He was soon to learn that only the work of the evil one produces those feelings, and their true service for the Lord always brings peace and contentment.”

Hank Smith: 11:15 I like that. I like that we’re personalizing Paul here, that this conversion just didn’t just happen because of the vision, it was happening. Something was already happening.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 11:25 Yeah, there’s stuff stirring below the surface of him. It seems like he’s starting to go down the road to conversion before the Savior appears to him and shifts him in the right direction. Because he’s a good person. He recognizes that even with the paradigms of his religious faith, he’s probably taking it too far. That he’s splitting up families and causing problems and hurting people, even if he feels like he’s doing it for a righteous cause. He must have started to question his motives. And again, that idea of it’s hard for you. It’s hard for you to kick against the pricks. Goes back to a point I keep making with a lot of people recently.

  12:09 I think it is easier to live the gospel than it is to not live the gospel. It’s harder to not keep the commandments than it is to keep them. The Savior said, “My yoke is easy, my burden is light.” Yeah, it’s a burden, but the burden is lighter than it would be otherwise. And our lives are easier when we follow Christ than if we chose some other path where we didn’t follow him. And that resonates with me because I hear so many people that have sometimes left the faith or that are questioning say, “It just seems really hard.” And it seems like the Savior’s trying to tell Saul, it’s harder without the gospel than it is with the gospel. As hard as it is. Life is hard in general, just deal with it.

John Bytheway: 12:56 I like how you’ve chosen your words carefully there. It’s not easy, but it’s easier. And that’s what I like to say. The consequences of not living the gospel can be so hard that living the gospel is the easiest way to live. Not easy, but it’s easier than the alternatives because of the peace that comes. And life is still hard, there will still be trials. Guaranteed. But it’s easier than going through the consequences of not living it sometimes.

Hank Smith: 13:24 Did you ever work with cattle out there in Delta where you grew up, Casey? What does kick against the pricks mean?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 13:30 Well, the only cattle I worked with was with cow tipping, which you’d be familiar with being from St. George. But a prick could be called a goad. It was something that you would use to get your animals to go in the right direction. And when they kicked against it, it injured them. And the Savior’s just… This is his classy way, the Savior has such a way with words of saying, you’re only hurting yourself here. What you’re doing is hurting you. And there’s all kinds of little ways in our life that the Savior goads us onto the right path, but usually it’s us that are causing the injury, not the Savior himself.

John Bytheway: 14:09 Yeah. I like the idea of, how’s that working for you, Paul?

Hank Smith: 14:15 What I find fascinating next is that the Lord has someone ready there in Damascus to go and minister to Paul. Almost like, let me shuffle you towards your new church leader.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 14:25 Yeah. And this guy I think is the real hero of the story.

Hank Smith: 14:29 Yeah, he is.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 14:31 Paul’s going to be a hero later on. He’s a good guy. But Ananias, who only shows up in these simple couple verses, is really a great, great example of the virtues and teachings of Jesus Christ in action. That’s one reason why I like the Book of Acts, is because it’s like this laboratory where all the theories and teachings that Jesus puts out there are put into action. And Ananias is a love your enemies guy. In fact, the language here is so good.

John Bytheway: 15:01 Yeah, he’s funny.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 15:02 “There was a disciple in Damascus named Ananias. And to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias behold, here am I Lord.” So he’s in tune with the Spirit.

John Bytheway: 15:11 Ready to go.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 15:12 “The Lord said unto him, arise, go into the street, which is called straight.” Still there in Damascus. “Inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for he prayeth has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, put his hand on him that he may receive the sight.” This is where Ananias bravely and boldly talks back, “Lord, I’ve heard by many of this man the evil he hath done to thy saints of Jerusalem, and here he hath authority from the chief priest to bind all thee that call unto his name.” Ananias is, are you-

John Bytheway: 15:41 Are you sure?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 15:44 Yeah. Like, Saul? Really?

John Bytheway: 15:48 Have you read headlines? I’m ready to go. I’m ready to go.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 15:52 I don’t want to question you, but…

John Bytheway: 15:53 It’s got to be hard to say that to the Lord too. Do you know who you’re talking about?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 16:02 I identify with Ananias because I’m that way too a lot of times. Do we have to do it this way? Are you sure this person? Gosh, I really don’t want to. And the Lord said unto him, “Go thy way. He is a chosen vessel unto me to bear my name before the gentiles and kings, and the children of Israel.” This is why I love Ananias. If I could tell a weird story, I found this book when I was a college student called, The 100, by Michael Hart. And he ranks the 100 greatest people that ever lived. And I opened it and expected Jesus to be number one. Jesus was number three. His reasoning for why Jesus was number three is, pretty much everything Jesus taught, some other philosopher taught. And then at the end he goes, there’s one original teaching that Jesus did contribute to world religion and philosophy, and that is the idea that you love your enemy.

  16:55 Pretty much every other religion has a love your neighbor or be good to those that are good to you, a golden rule sort of thing. But he said, “Jesus taught this idea that you should love your enemy, which no other philosopher, teacher, or religion dared to teach.” And then the guy that wrote this book said, “I would rank Jesus as number one if I thought anybody actually did that. But nobody does. And so he’s number three.” He goes after Muhammad and Isaac Newton.

  17:23 Well, here’s Ananias. Here’s Ananias saying, not only is this guy my enemy, he’s the enemy of my friends. And he’s dangerous, he’s got authority. He could throw me in jail. The Savior says, “No, I need you to do this.” And Ananias goes. In fact, look at how he addresses him in verse 17. Brother Saul, he’s his brother, even though he’s the worst persecutor he knows. “The Lord, even Jesus that appeared unto thee in the ways thou camest, has sent me that thou mayest receive thy sight and be filled with the Holy Ghost. And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales, and he received sight forthwith and arose and was baptized.” Gosh, I love Ananias. And for that reason. I don’t know if I would’ve had the fortitude or the faith, I guess, to go to someone that was actively persecuting me that could throw me in prison and address him as my brother, just based on the Savior’s recommendation of who he was.

John Bytheway: 18:22 That sounds pretty confident. Was there a tremor in his voice? Hi, excuse me, brother Saul. Hi, the Lord that appeared to thee, or was it the Lord sent me? I mean, he just had a vision of the Lord, that’s pretty cool. And apparently the Lord told him what happened. What happened to Paul. And another thing, isn’t Ananiah the names of one of Daniel’s friends in the Old Testament. He was named after him, maybe one of those friends?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 18:52 Yeah, probably.

John Bytheway: 18:53 Yeah. Brother Robert J. Matthews in a book called, Unto All Nations, or maybe it’s an essay called Unto All Nations. He said, “Ananias was probably the presiding officer of the church in Damascus, since the Lord came to Ananias and instructed him to seek out Saul, teach him the gospel and heal his blindness. Ananias must have been the person in charge of the church in that area. It is likely that he was the man Saul would’ve desired most to imprison. It is an ironic turn of events that the very disciples Saul wished to silence should become the one who taught, healed, and baptized him.”

Hank Smith: 19:29 That’s great.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 19:29 That’s a great insight. Is it possible that Saul was on his way to Damascus to arrest Ananias?

John Bytheway: 19:37 Ananias, I stopped him for you. Go get him.

Hank Smith: 19:42 There’s a hint of a premortal life in Acts 9:15, because he is a chosen vessel unto me. And so far we haven’t seen Saul do anything to earn that title chosen vessel. There’s not a story in here that says he has done anything that the Lord would say, yes, he’s my guy. Maybe this is a foreordination. This is something that has been in the works since before Paul was born.

John Bytheway: 20:08 And I believe Elder McConkie said that very thing, that this was clearly a foreordination of Paul, and he needed to be stopped on the path he was on to go fulfill that.

Hank Smith: 20:20 Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 20:21 And doesn’t it speak to the fact that you can’t really look at any person and really say what their story is going to turn out like. Externally, Saul is a persecutor of the church. He’s overzealous, he’s their worst enemy. They don’t know that he’s chosen, but the Savior knows and has this idea intent for him. It’s interesting to me that this conversion story is so powerful that Saul, it seems to be his default setting. When he gets in front of him, his first discussion is to tell his conversion story. He does this in Acts 22, when he is in trouble in the temple. Then when he is brought before Festus and King of Agrippa, he tells the story again. And how just about every person that I know has some remarkable aspect of their conversion story. It’s very, very rare that anybody’s like, yeah, I just always did what I was supposed to do, and then…

John Bytheway: 21:18 Nothing ever happened. Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 21:20 Yeah, nothing ever happened. Even before we started recording this I was talking to Lisa and David, and they were both telling me how they came from these surprising backgrounds. That sometimes we want to look at a person and just say, there’s no way. Don’t waste your time. Let’s move on and find more fertile ground. When you never really know where that’s going to be, and you never know exactly what the Lord has in store for them, that we just can’t dismiss people outright. I have that conversion story, and I think just about everybody does. I didn’t go around persecuting Christians or anything, but I wasn’t always the best person. And I’m grateful that the Lord sees potential in people like me and people like Saul, where sometimes we really don’t. Even the best of us, like Ananias.

John Bytheway: 22:10 Yeah. I love the metaphor that all of us will have a road to Damascus experience perhaps. In preparation for this, I was listening to Michael Ballam talking about Paul at a CES symposium. Remember those?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 22:25 Oh, yeah.

John Bytheway: 22:26 Kind-of told, he was a good boy, he was doing really well in singing in opera, and he got a letter from his grandfather that was a loving road to Damascus type letter. And he spoke of it beautifully, the road that he was on. And it’s pretty cool, because Brother Ballam talks about going to that theater in Ephesus and has this beautiful trained voice and he got up, was going to sing some classic. And he had this spirit say, no, go sing the Lord’s Prayer. And in this theater with all sorts of audiences, Brother Ballam got up, and you can just imagine this, the way that would echo and resonate in that huge theater in Ephesus. He had people come up to him afterwards, embrace him, kiss his cheek, weeping when he’s sang the Lord’s Prayer. And he said, “I felt like Paul, I was there.” And then he got to play the part of Paul in some of the earlier church movies. I don’t know, I was touched by his idea that all of us will have a road to Damascus type of experience as you have been explaining.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 23:31 See, and John, I don’t know what sparked this in me when you were saying it, but my grandpa was named Paul. My middle name Casey Paul Griffiths actually comes from my grandfather. And I never knew him, but my grandpa wasn’t active in the church. Sort of a little antagonistic towards the church from what I hear from my dad. And then one day my dad’s twin brother, my uncle Kevin, was riding a horse on the farm. Fell off the horse, got dragged a considerable distance by the horse. In fact, the horse, according to my dad, came along and hit my uncle into several fence posts. And by the time they were able to stop the horse, the kid’s just a bloody pulp laying there on the ground. And my grandpa picked the kid up and took him to the hospital. And I never knew the guy, but while they were at the hospital he knelt down and made a covenant with God, never really made covenants. And just said, “If you’ll save my son, I’ll change.”

  24:32 And my uncle’s still alive today, just celebrated his 70th birthday. My grandpa came back to church, took his family to the temple, and then a few years afterwards was killed in a car accident. Everything in his life just boom, boom, boom, happened in time for him to make those covenants so that my dad and my uncle grew up in the faith, went to the temple, and then raised families within the gospel as well. And so sometimes when I hear the story I think of my grandpa, Paul. That he was a chosen vessel. That the Lord saw his potential and maybe it took some major shaking to get him to where he needed to be, but that the Lord knew exactly what he needed and how to get him there. Not that the Lord caused my uncle to be in an accident, and my uncle is just a big klutz. He sees us and he knows how our story’s going to end, sometimes when we can’t really see how that story is going to end.

John Bytheway: 25:32 Thank you for sharing that.

Hank Smith: 25:34 Yeah, that’s fantastic. Elder Uchtdorf gave a talk back in 2011 called, Waiting on the Road to Damascus. And he says, “One of the most remarkable events in the history of the world happened on the road to Damascus. You know well the story of Saul, a young man who had made havoc of the church. Entering into every house, committing the saints to prison. Saul was so hostile that many members of the early church fled Jerusalem in the hope of escaping his anger. Saul pursued them. But as he came near Damascus, suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven, and he fell to the earth and heard a voice saying, ‘Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?’ This transformative moment changed Saul forever. Indeed, it changed the world.”

  26:18 Later on. Elder Uchtdorf says, “There are some who feel that unless they have an experience similar to Saul’s or Joseph Smith’s, they cannot believe. They stand at the waters of baptism but do not enter. They wait at the threshold of testimony, but cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the truth. Instead of taking some small steps of faith on the path to discipleship, they want a dramatic event to compel them to believe. They spend their days waiting on the road to Damascus.” At the end of the talk he says, “Brothers and sisters, dear friends, let us not wait too long on our road to Damascus. Let us courageously move forward in faith, hope, and charity, and we will be blessed with the light we are all seeking upon the path of true discipleship.” So interesting twist, he puts on the story here that people want this vision, and so they just wait and sit and wait on their own roads to Damascus.

John Bytheway: 27:10 That’s great. Ananias had more than a prompting, it was actually a theophany. But he went right to it, maybe even sensing the danger of it. That’s a cool story.

Hank Smith: 27:22 And Casey, you point out he goes to him, Brother Saul. Ananias is a hero.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 27:28 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 27:29 Yeah. That’s cool.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 27:30 And whether that brother is an attempt to, hey, we’re brothers, maybe don’t arrest me and throw me in jail. Or if it’s him saying, if Christ sees you as my brother, then you are my brother. I think both are incredibly noble to extend a term of familial endearment to someone who’s persecuted your best friends and might be coming after you, it’s Christian discipleship at its finest demonstrated here. Like I said, Acts is the lab where all the things that Jesus taught are acted out fully from the disciples carrying out miracles. The disciples just living what Jesus taught and seeing how it affects the world around them and makes good things happen.

Hank Smith: 28:14 I think of Joseph Smith’s statement, wasn’t it to the Relief Society, the first Relief Society. If you would have God have mercy on you, have mercy on one another. That seems like Ananias is living that here.

John Bytheway: 28:27 I think the Lord talked to him longer than what we have here, obviously. Because when Ananias went there he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus that appeared unto thee in the way.” How did he know that unless the Lord told him that. He’s the one who sent me, and kind of like you prayed me here. Like you said, the Newell K. Whitney story.

Hank Smith: 28:45 Casey, what happens to Paul next? Do we call him Paul from here on out?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 28:49 Well, that’s another aspect to the story too, is his name’s Saul, which is a very Israelite name. Saul means great one. He’s the first king of Israel. But the real person we’re going to know that writes a significant part of the New Testament is named Paul. Paul’s a Greek name. Some people have suggested he goes by Paul because he starts to work primarily among non-Jews. But I would also point out that the word Paul means little. He goes from being a great king, Saul. To Paul, which means small, basically. That gives something of his estimation, this regret that he sometimes feels because he didn’t choose the path, he was pushed onto it, and then tried to do the best he could to follow it the rest of his life. Yeah, this is where Saul starts to transform into Paul, though the name formally appears a little bit later on in the Book of Acts as things go on.

Hank Smith: 29:49 I love how you’ve been pointing out that Paul does seem to have some… Every time he talks about it, there’s some regret. And I think we can learn a lot. Anyone who feels like, man, I had some years of not living the right way. Like you said earlier, Casey. And can I move on from that?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 30:07 Yeah. His regret never seems to fully go away, but he does more than enough to not only repair the damage he’s done, but allow the church to flourish and grow. It doesn’t seem like he lets his regret stop him from doing good. He’s not paralyzed by it. But he does recognize, hey, a little different circumstances. If Jesus hadn’t intervened in my life, I might’ve gone down a very different path, and one that I really would regret knowing what I know now.

Hank Smith: 30:37 In verse 19, he’s with them certain days?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 30:41 Mm-hmm. In fact-

Hank Smith: 30:43 Is that he’s just recovering from his vision?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 30:47 Yeah. He gives a biography, a little bit of himself in Galatians 1. He talks about that he went up to Jerusalem and he went to the apostles. He says that I went to see Peter and I abode with him 15 days. He serves a mission in Arabia. We assume that he returns to Damascus. Another lesson that we would learn here is that he doesn’t immediately become the Apostle Paul, the great figure that we know of. There’s a transition period. He sees himself as the lowest of the low. He seeks out the wisdom and guidances of good people like Peter and the other apostles. He serves within the church. And then he returns home, and it’s really 10 years.

  31:29 There’s this lost 10 years of Paul’s life where we don’t know much about what was going on before he commences his mission and really becomes the Apostle Paul, the great preacher, the great writer, the great theologian that does all the good. This is another one of those situations where in the Book of Mormon it sounds like Alma the Elder, or Alma the Younger, was just changed and immediately became good. When if you read into their biographies, it takes time to repent of the things that you’ve done. And you got to go easy on yourself as you’re making this transition into being good, but you can be good. You can grow and change and take your life in a different direction. You can change the story.

Hank Smith: 32:12 And you might shock those around you. Look at verse 21. “Is this not he that destroyed them? They called this name in Jerusalem.” People are, what? The shock of the century with this change.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 32:27 Well, that’s a side of the story too, is how readily the saints embrace and forgive Saul/Paul for what he’s done. You know what? I wasn’t picked on in high school or anything, but there was this one kid who was a little bit rough around the edges. And I was a drama/theater kid, that type. It was hard later on accepting him in church callings and seeing him serve to not remember the kid he was in high school. But part of the lesson here too is if someone genuinely repents, they’ve genuinely changed. And the people that have known them have to accept the change too. That Ananias is the first of, I would guess, many, many disciples of Christ who have to get used to the idea of, oh, now Saul is one of us. And then, hey, Saul is a great, great teacher, and Saul’s a great, great leader. And Saul’s someone that God really did choose to do something amazing. The Lord saw his potential, even if we didn’t.

John Bytheway: 33:32 Now he’s an apostle. Not only is he a great teacher and missionary, but one of the absolute leaders of the church.

Hank Smith: 33:41 And changes Christianity, forms Christianity. A lot of the theology comes from Saul. Comes from Paul. What happens to him next here in Acts nine?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 33:53 Well, he gets to have a couple more adventures where now the Jews, this is verse 23. Verse 22, sorry, let’s back up. “Saul increased more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is the very Christ.” Early indications, he’s good. He’s very good.

  34:12 He proves to the Jews that Jesus is the Christ, and now he’s at the receiving end. He’s the Stephen, verse 23. “After many days were fulfilled, the Jews took council to kill him. Then laying in wait was known of Saul, and they watched the gates day and night to kill him. The disciples took him by night and led him down by the wall of the basket.” Then he goes to Jerusalem. He goes into Damascus as a blind man, is healed, and then has to escape out of a basket. And this is a portend of what the rest of his life is going to be. When Paul says, “I was a Pharisee and I was good at it,” I think part of him is saying too, and imagine what my life would be like if I had stayed there.

  34:52 I don’t know if he would’ve been happier, but his life may have been less troubled. Because there’s other places where Paul goes through everything that’s happened to him in his letters. We’re talking about a guy who’s going to get stoned a couple times, and shipwrecked and thrown in prison, and eventually killed for his beliefs. But his conversion’s sincere. In everything that he was doing, it feels like he went in and he took his heart to work with him every time that he went out to teach the gospel.

Hank Smith: 35:24 I wonder what the disciples are thinking in verse 25. We are helping Saul escape the authorities who want to kill him. It’s just got to be a, I did not see this day coming.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 35:38 And then in verse 27 he meets Barnabas, who’s going to be his missionary companion. This is the great ones assembling and getting ready to go out and preach the gospel. Has an opportunity to meet with Peter too, he says in his later biography. And Peter and Paul are going to have a complicated relationship later on in the scriptures, but he’s changed and he’s genuinely repented, and this is the prodigal son in real life. This is a person who changes, changes for the better, and then lives the change and endures the end.

Hank Smith: 36:10 There’s this phrase I want to look at in Acts 9:26. He’s going to Jerusalem, he wants to teach and talk and be part of the group, but they were all afraid of him and believed not that he was a disciple. They couldn’t believe that he had changed.

John Bytheway: 36:26 That’s why I like that Barnabas is here. No, really. No, I was there. I saw him. And Barnabas relates to them. This is the vision that he had, “And I saw him preach boldly at Damascus in the name of Jesus.” And nice that Barnabas was there to say, no, he’s not trying to enter in incognito, I watched him and he really did change.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 36:46 He’s not a double agent, he’s the real deal. But it does speak to his reputation among the saints that when he shows up in Jerusalem it’s not a yay. It’s a, are you for serious? Are you sure about this guy? Sometimes we can’t see what miracles the Lord can do and conversion in people’s lives. And we maybe need to recognize people’s potential a little bit more than we do.

Hank Smith: 37:11 Yeah. Reminds me of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies, being scared that the Nephites would accept them as they’re going in. Are you sure they’ll let me be part of this? And they let them in. Elder Holland, you both will recognize this has said, “Let people repent, let people grow. Believe that people can change and improve. Is that faith? Yes. Is that hope? Yes. Is that charity? Yes. Above all, it is charity, the pure love of Christ.” He says, “If something is buried in the past, leave it buried. Don’t keep going back with your little sand pail and beach shovel to dig it up, wave it around and throw it at someone saying, ‘Hey, do you remember this?’ Splat. Well, guess what? That’s probably going to result in some ugly morsel being dug up out of your landfill with the reply. ‘Yeah, I remember it. Do you remember this?’ Splat.

  38:00 And soon enough, everyone comes out of that exchange, dirty and muddy and unhappy and hurt. And what our father in heaven pleads for is cleanliness and kindness and happiness and healing. Such dwelling on past lives, including past mistakes is just not right. It is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.”

  38:20 I think this is from, Remember Lot’s Wife. And later on in this talk he brings up something that Paul actually says, and I want you to think of it in these terms. Paul says, “This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth unto those things which are before,” meaning into the future. “I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.” I wonder if Paul could be hinting a little bit to his past life. I forget those things which I did before, and I reach forward. I don’t spend my time in the past. And eventually, I think the church here does take him in. They were all afraid of him. Believed not that he was the disciple, but they believe Barnabas. And they’re like, okay, all right. And they accept him.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 39:09 Recognizing there’s two little verses here I love too. “When he gets to Jerusalem, they’re afraid of him. He spake boldly.” This is verse 29. “In the name of the Lord Jesus, and disputed against the Grecians, and they went about to slay him. Which when the brother knew, they brought him down to Caesarea and sent him forth to Tarsus.” In other words, this guy is so onboard with the gospel he’ll take on anybody anywhere, so much so that the disciples of Jerusalem have to bundle him off and send him home because he’s getting them in trouble. And that’s Saul/Paul in a nutshell. He’s a person who was all in, in every aspect of his life. And in this case, doesn’t look to the past. Now that he’s a disciple of Christ, now that he knows the full meaning, he’s all in and go do everything he can. And this is a prologue to the rest of the Book of Acts where he has some very, very interesting adventures and helps a lot of people.

Hank Smith: 40:07 That’s great. As we wrap up our discussion on Paul’s conversion, I wanted to read this great opening paragraph from the manual. “If anyone seemed like an unlikely candidate for conversion, it was probably Saul, a Pharisee who had a reputation for persecuting Christians. So when the Lord told the disciple named Ananias to seek out Saul and offer him a blessing, Ananias was understandably hesitant. “Lord,” he said, “I have heard by many of this man how much evil he hath done to thy saints.” But the Lord knew Saul’s heart and his potential, and he had a mission in mind for Saul. He is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. So Ananias obeyed, and when he found this former persecutor, he called him brother Saul. If Saul could change so completely, and Ananias could welcome him so freely, then should we ever consider anyone an unlikely candidate for change, including ourselves?” Casey, walk us through the rest of this chapter. There’s a story that probably gets overshadowed by Paul a Little bit.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 41:13 Paul’s such a big character, he tends to overshadow everybody, even though these chapters are a wonderful series of little vignettes about the church growing. They get Saul bundled off to Tarsus, because he is causing problems. It says, “The churches,” this is verse 31, “through Judea, Galilee, and Samaria were all edified walking in the fear of the Lord.” Things are going good. Then it just mentions a little story here. Peter, and Peter’s walking around doing good, acting out what the Savior had taught in the gospels. Acts is the lab where everything’s carried out. He finds a man named Aeneas, which kept his bed eight years, was sick of palsy. He said, “Aeneas, Jesus Christ, make it the whole. Arise and make thy bed. And all that dwelt and Lydda and Saron saw him and turned to the Lord.” Then it mentions a woman named Tabitha who lives at Joppa.

  42:01 Her name by interpretation is Dorcas, but for obvious reasons we’ll use Tabitha here to describe her. Peter goes in and-

Hank Smith: 42:10 She’s full of good works, right?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 42:12 She’s full of good works. Yes, she’s a righteous person. This woman was full of good works, verse 36. “And almsdeeds and all that she did. And it came to pass in those days she was sick and died, with whom they washed, they laid in the upper chamber.” Peter comes and sees them. He sees the people weeping and walks in, verse 40. “Peter put them all forth, kneeled down, prayed. And turning to the body said, ‘Tabitha arise.’ And she opened her eyes, and when she saw Peter she sat up. And he gave her his hand and lifted her up. And when she had called, the saints and widows presented her alive. It was all made known throughout Joppa, and many people believed in the Lord.”

  42:52 You could say this is the end of the first phase of the Book of Acts. And the main thing that the early part of the Book of Acts seems to be teaching is that Jesus is going to give his power to his disciples. That Jesus is still pulling the strings, he’s still moving people exactly where they need to be to carry out the gospel. But also, that exactly what Jesus had promised in the gospels, that his disciples would do the same miracles as him, and even greater, is fully carried out here. The ultimate miracle, the last miracle the Savior performs before he has to submit to his death at crucifixion is to bring a person back to life. Peter does that here. And it seems like the Book of Acts is saying, hey, there are miracles of healing. There are miracles of revelation, and there are miracles of conversion.

  43:46 We’re seeing two people in chapter nine being saved, Tabitha being saved from death and Saul being saved from a life bound up in the wrong cause. This is where phase one of the Book of Acts ends. And then phase two is going to be about Peter, because Peter’s now in the place he needs to receive the revelation he gets in Acts 10 that directs the church to go to all the world. Now that we’ve established the church is healthy, it’s doing good, Jesus’s promises have come true, it’s time for them to take all the good that they have and start to expand out of the areas they’ve lived in and take the gospel to all nations.

John Bytheway: 44:27 I like that comparison of raising someone. We both said it earlier, the Book of Acts of the Apostles could be called the Acts of Jesus Christ through the Apostles. And we’ve seen that his power is still here and it’s being used by the apostles.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 44:44 And we might add the Book of the Acts of Jesus through the apostles and the disciples. Because people like Ananias, people like Philip aren’t apostles. They’re ordinary men, ordinary women who are doing good things and carrying out miracles as great as the ones Jesus was able to perform.

Hank Smith: 45:03 Casey, you’ve walked us through these chapters beautifully. Acts 6, 7, 8, and 9. I now understand Stephen more. I understand Philip and Ananias, Saul of course. As you put these all together, what are you hoping our listeners walk away with?

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 45:20 Well, I hope they get the impression that there is a plan behind your life. That someone like Stephen wasn’t a failure, he planted the seed that led to the conversion of Saul. Philip was able to do great and wondrous things. And finally, the Savior was able to take the exact opposite person, Saul, and turn him into the Apostle Paul, a mighty missionary that could go out to all the nations. I would say, don’t make snap judgments about people and who they are and what their potential is. There’s sometimes a tendency for us to look at people, especially those that believe differently from us, or those that are struggling with their faith and say, “That’s it, I’ve seen the end of their story. There’s nothing more I can do.”

  46:06 The message here seems to be that even a person who seems to be the worst of the worst, like Saul, can become the best of the best. Can become the best and the brightest. There’s a chosen vessel before God, and God sees all those potentials. It’s not really our job to judge, our job is to be like Ananias and be ready when the call comes, no matter how difficult it is to do what the Lord intends for us to do so that we can bring about his work.

Hank Smith: 46:36 That’s fantastic. I think you’ve shown us here that this work of the Lord is done on a one by one basis. Stephen touches Saul. Philip teaches the Ethiopian man. Ananias goes to Saul. Peter goes to Aeneas and to Tabitha. Every one of these stories is an individual going to speak to, uplift, and help another individual, and that’s really how the work goes forward.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 47:02 Amen, brother.

John Bytheway: 47:04 Yeah.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 47:04 That’s absolutely right. It’s not about mass conversion, it’s about individuals. I think this is part of the fulfillment of Jeremiah’s prophecy where he says, hunters and fishers, you go out and you affect people one at a time, and you never know how that individual act will result in a multiplicity of conversions. When Aeneas goes out into the street and goes to meet Saul, he’s just doing the next right thing. He doesn’t know that he’s about to help convert the greatest missionary in the history of the world, he just does what the Lord wants him to do for that next little moment to help this one struggling individual who’s really having a hard time. Small and simple things, tiny miracles multiplied lead to great miracles.

John Bytheway: 47:50 I think too, we can see the Lord is involved in his work, I think that’s true today. And not just sitting back and watching, but he’s involved and he’s giving people promptings and visions and things like that. And it’s just fun to see this unfold. I like reading the Book of Acts because they really are acting now. It’s a good title, because they’re acting on everything they’ve learned, and it’s fun to see all these different situations and how this person comes and that person comes. And as you’ve talked to us today, Casey, beautifully, thank you.

Hank Smith: 48:22 And I can’t help but think of Luke writing, who wrote the Book of Acts. Luke writing in Luke chapter five, here’s Peter about to be called. And he says, “Depart from me, I am a sinful man, oh, Lord.” And Jesus says, “Fear not, from henceforth thou shall catch men.” And we’re finally getting to the vision in Acts chapter nine here, we’re getting to the vision of what Jesus saw at that moment. Does that make sense? That Peter’s like, I am just a sinful fisherman, I promise you don’t want me. And what the Lord has in mind, probably beyond this, is the Peter of Acts chapter nine, going in and healing Aeneas and Tabitha. And what’s coming up next with his visions. The Lord sees us as the glorious beings we are capable of becoming.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 49:15 Yeah. The Lord sees us as we can be, not necessarily as we are. In Acts chapter nine you get to see Peter in the full height of his power becoming fully what the Lord intended it would be. And then you get to see Saul at the start of his journey to become what he’ll eventually become too.

Hank Smith: 49:32 Perfect.

John Bytheway: 49:33 And I think that each of us could talk about leaders we’ve had in our lives who saw more in us than we saw in ourselves, and that pattern is showed by the Lord here. And maybe we can do that with each other too.

Hank Smith: 49:46 Yeah, we can be those type of leaders. We can be those type of parents. Try to see people as the Lord knows they’ll become. Beautiful. We want to thank Dr. Casey Griffiths for being with us today. Casey, it’s been fantastic. Before I let you go, you and a friend of the podcast, Scott Woodward, are working on a project. Tell us about that.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 50:06 Yeah, thank you for that. You guys actually gave us the microphones we’re using for our podcast. Scott and I are working on a podcast called Church History Matters, and it basically is where we take a tough issue in church history, something like first vision accounts, Book of Mormon translation, polygamy, race and the priesthood. We do a deep dive into it. I’m talking a couple hours where we explore every aspect of the subject and help you figure it out. We hope it’s going to be helpful for people that struggle, or love people that struggle, especially in issues with church history. That’s affiliated with Scripture Central, and we hope that you’ll give it a listen, I think it’ll be helpful.

Hank Smith: 50:46 Awesome. It’s followHIM stamp of approval on that. John, what a great day. The Book of Acts is exciting, isn’t it?

John Bytheway: 50:55 Yeah, it really is. I’ve got it all marked up. And I thank you, Casey, I’ll remember you whenever I’m looking at these chapters again.

Dr. Casey Griffiths: 51:02 Oh, thanks for inviting me on, guys. It’s a pleasure.

Hank Smith: 51:04 We’ve loved having you. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Sorensen. We want to thank our sponsors, David and Verla Sorensen. And of course, remember our founder Steve Sorensen. We hope you’ll all join us next week, we got more chapters in the Book of Acts coming up on Follow Him.

  51:22 Today’s transcripts, show notes, and additional references are available on our website, followhim.co. Followhim.co. And you can watch the podcast on YouTube with additional videos on Facebook and Instagram. All of this is absolutely free, so be sure to share with your family and friends. To reach those who are searching for help with their Come Follow Me study, please subscribe, rate, review, or comment on the podcast, which makes the podcast easier to find. Thank you.

  51:48 We want to thank our incredible production crew, David Perry, Lisa Spice, Jamie Neilson, Will Stoughton, Krystal Roberts, and Ariel Cuadra. We also love hearing from you, our listeners.

Speaker 4: 52:01 I’m sitting here at the park watching my kids while I’m listening to the Come Follow Me videos, and you invited us to share how Come Follow Me has changed my life. Well, Come Follow Me has converted me to my Savior. Because of studying, Come Follow Me, we received revelation that we needed to move, and we are currently living where we are because of studying Come Follow Me. When last year began, I was not excited to study the Old Testament because it has always been so weird, but last year I came closer to my Savior that I thought possible.

  52:39 I’m so grateful for my Savior and his teachings, and our prophet who has invited us to have a home centered, church supported study. Last year I learned about the Abrahamic Covenant, and all of a sudden all of the scriptures just made so much more sense, and they were so relatable to my life. I am so grateful that I’ve been able to have conversations with family and friends because we’re all studying the same things at the same time, and everything just seems so exciting and so applicable, and I’m so grateful for Come Follow me. Thank you for all your contributions.