Hank Smith:  00:01  Welcome to Follow Him. A weekly podcast dedicated to helping individuals and families, with their Come Follow Me study. I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway:  00:09  And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith:  00:10  We love to learn.

John Bytheway:  00:11  We love to laugh.

Hank Smith:  00:13  We want to learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway:  00:15  As together-

Hank Smith:  00:16  We follow him.

Hank Smith:  00:20  Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Follow Him. My name is Hank Smith I’m your host. I’m here with my golden co-host, John Bytheway. Welcome, John Bytheway. I would call you the golden calf co-host, but that’s…

John Bytheway:  00:39  I had Golden Grahams for breakfast, this…(singing) so…

Hank Smith:  00:41  Well, we can see it.

John Bytheway:  00:41  It’s appropriate.

Hank Smith:  00:41  I can see it. That’s why I called you golden. Sometimes we get guests on where I’m really nervous to be around them. And then sometimes we get guests on… Where I’m probably too comfortable, because we’re such good friends that I just…

John Bytheway:  00:59  Yeah.

Hank Smith:  00:59  I’m a little too relaxed, and today’s probably one of those days. Can you tell our listeners, our good friend who’s with us?

John Bytheway:  01:07  John Hilton is here today, and I used to feel comfortable about him. And then I read his bio, and things that he does that are like, “Hey, I think I’ll learn Chinese.” And so he does it, and I think, “Wow, this guy is incredible.”

John Bytheway:  01:20  So, I’ll read the bio, but you and I, Hank, both know that he’s an extraordinary person. John Hilton the third was born in San Francisco, grew up in Seattle; Served a mission in Denver. He received a bachelor’s degree from Brigham Young University. While he was there he met his wife Lonnie. They have six children. They’ve lived in Boise, Boston, Miami, Mexico, Jerusalem, and China. John has a master’s degree from Harvard. That’s just fun to say that, you know, I have, wait, don’t you pronounce that different? He has a master’s degree from Harvard, and a PhD from BYU, both in education. He’s a professor of religious education at BYU. And as our listeners probably know he’s published several books with Deseret Book, including Considering the Cross, which we talked about before on our podcast, how Calvary connects us with Christ and he’s the author of the video course and podcast Seeking Jesus. And he loves teaching, reading and spending time with his family.

John Bytheway:  02:19  We’re thrilled to have our friend John Hilton back with us again.

John Hilton:  02:23  Thank you, so good to be here.

Hank Smith:  02:24  I’m excited to look that up, Seeking Jesus. John we’ll have to use our Google and thumb and look up John Hilton.

John Bytheway:  02:31  Yeah.

Hank Smith:  02:31  Seeking Jesus.

John Hilton:  02:32  Just started a couple of months ago. You can find it on YouTube or wherever you listen to podcasts. And the idea is whatever book of scripture, I think it’s especially true with the Old Testament, sometimes it’s easy to lose focus on Jesus Christ. There’s all sorts of interesting stories and stuff that’s going on. So the purpose of this video class I’m doing is just to really center us on Jesus Christ and find ways to focus on him specifically, rather than sort of the church generally or scriptures generally, but really focus on Jesus.

Hank Smith:  02:59  That’s awesome.

John Bytheway:  03:00  I’m glad you said that John, in my own ward, it’s really been fun to try to focus on finding the Savior in these Old Testament stories. There’s great characters and families and stories in the Old Testament, but find types, shadows and prophecies of Christ in these chapters. And I know you’re going to help us do that today.

Hank Smith:  03:19  For those of you listening, who would think, “Man, when you read his bio, when you see his picture, when you see his amazing family, just think this guy is above us all,” but, he is not. He often comes down to my level and speaks with me and picks me up. John, last year, you know that my brother passed away. My father passed away, and John Hilton came to my house both times. But do you remember that? You showed up in my garage there I am sitting there in my spandex because I just went bike riding. He just came and sat with me. He’s just really, really good. He lives what he believes and I’m just really excited. We get to study Exodus today, right?

John Bytheway:  04:03  Yeah.

John Hilton:  04:04  In fact, this is one of the really interesting examples of what you were just talking about, John, where there’s so many cool stories we could explore. We’re going to see golden calves and people throwing blood on each other. And it’s really easy just to be, wow, this is, this is wild, but it’s a great chance to center ourselves on Jesus. In fact, if you don’t mind, just before we start, I want to share a quote from Chad Webb.

John Hilton:  04:26  Chad Webb, for those of you who don’t know, he’s the administrator of the Seminary and Institute program. And he’s one of my heroes. He gave a really influential talk. We can put it in the show notes about the Savior and focusing on him when teaching. So let me just read this quote from him. He said “The single most important way in which we can help increase faith in the rising generation, is to more fully place Jesus Christ at the center of our teaching and learning by helping our students come to know him, to learn from him, and to consciously strive to become like him. Every day. We must talk of Christ, rejoice in Christ and preach of Christ. There is nothing we can do that will bless our students, and I would add our children, our grandchildren, more than to help them come to know Jesus Christ. We must help them to love him, follow him and intentionally strive to become like him.”

John Hilton:  05:20  And that’s one of my hopes today, and we’ll see it right off the bat as we dive into Exodus 24 is we can focus on Jesus Christ and see him there.

Hank Smith:  05:29  Wonderful. Let’s get started. I’m sure everyone’s excited.

John Hilton:  05:32  In the previous chapters we’ve been in Moses has received the 10 commandments. He’s been learning some of the specific laws and he comes and he’s going to read them into hearing of the people. In verse three, the people say “all the words that the Lord has spoken, we will do.” And then Moses writes down the words and he builds an altar. And that’s just a very simple thing that we might just quickly glide by. Oh great. He built an altar. Lots of people do. In fact already, we’ve seen Noah building an altar, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob building an altar. And we remember that after Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of Eden, they built an altar and an angel specifically told them that this was a similitude of the sacrifice of the only begotten son of God. So already in building an altar, we’re starting to see some similarities with Jesus Christ.

John Hilton:  06:19  Now this next part is, if you’re listening with kids, you might need to turn down the volume because we’re going to share a story that is not told in primary. So they kill some oxen to sacrifice them. And then I’m not making this up, verse six, Moses took half the blood and put it in basins and half the blood he puts on the altar. And then he is going to take the blood that he’s put in the bowl, and he throws it on the people. This is a pretty graphic scene. You don’t see very many pictures of this in the gospel art kit.

John Hilton:  06:48  So Moses is throwing blood on the people. And then he says, in verse eight, “Behold, the blood of the covenant.” So notice that this, the animal has been sacrificed in similitude of Christ, half the blood has been put on the altar and now half the blood is put on the people, the altar representing God saying now this is a real covenant that you are making with God, saying we will follow. And keep in mind that phrase the blood of the covenant, because we’re going to come back to that in just a minute.

Hank Smith:  07:20  I have four boys. So it does sound a little bit like my house, the idea of blood going everywhere, right on to people. But I don’t think it was this as spiritual, maybe as, as this was.

John Hilton:  07:33  Hopefully the kids aren’t throwing blood on each other. Oh,

Hank Smith:  07:38  Did I tell you the other day, one of my twins brought down an extension cord top, right down on top of the other and we were at the emergency room.

John Hilton:  07:46  Oh wow.

Hank Smith:  07:47  Because the two prongs went [inaudible 00:07:51]

John Hilton:  07:50  Are you serious?

Hank Smith:  07:51  Yeah. Right into his skull. Yeah. One boy comes up covered in blood. The other one comes up, “I think I killed him.” Right. It was… Anyways. Okay. Sorry. Where are we going now?

John Hilton:  08:01  One thing I’ll just say about the altar real quick. We don’t really think about altar maybe as much today because in our chapels we don’t have altars, but remember front and center in an endowment room is an altar. And in a sealing room, in the center is an altar. So that representation of Jesus Christ is really central in temple ordinances. So I think as we’re going through the Old Testament, it’s great to focus on these different altars that are built and to think about Jesus Christ there.

John Bytheway:  08:29  I’ve always thought of the sacrament table as kind of a dual thing. It’s a table of communion like the last supper, but what are we remembering, the body and the blood of Christ. And I’ve always thought of a priest next to an altar there, an Aaronic priesthood priest next to an altar. Is that appropriate? Because I think of the sacrament table, like an altar too is where I remember the sacrifice.

John Hilton:  08:51  I think that’s a great way to kind of consider it as well.

Hank Smith:  08:54  John, for some of our listeners who are maybe going through the Old Testament for the first time, they better get used to blood and altars, right?

John Bytheway:  09:02  Yeah.

Hank Smith:  09:02  At least for a while.

John Hilton:  09:03  And maybe we can talk a little bit about why blood and altars, so to us, this is so graphic and we’re thinking, oh, this is a terrible thing, but let’s highlight some later connections that will really help us see Jesus strongly here. So if we were to, let’s just kind of put this story on pause. So Moses has thrown the blood on the people and has said “Behold, the blood of the covenant.” Well, if we jump forward several hundred years and go to the book of Jeremiah. Jeremiah’s a prophet who’s contemporary with Lehi. They’re both preaching around 600 BC and in Jeremiah chapter 31 verse 31, the Lord says “Behold, the days come that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel. Not according to the covenant I made with their fathers in the day I took them out of the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, which covenant they break.”

John Hilton:  09:54  So there’s an old that he’s kind of referring to, which is what we’re talking about here in Exodus 24. And then Jeremiah says there’s going to be a new covenant in the future. So now let’s jump forward another 600 years and turn to Matthew chapter 26. Now it’s the last supper. And Jesus says, as they were eating, he took bread and blessed it and break and gave it to the disciples and said, “Take eat. This is my body.” And he took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them saying “Drink ye all of it, for this is my blood of the New Testament.” And remember that that word Testament can also be translated as covenant. So this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many. I think that’s really powerful. There’s an old covenant made with blood here in Exodus 24, Jeremiah says, well, they broke that one, but a new one is coming.

John Hilton:  10:47  And then Jesus says, this is the new covenant. The new covenant is my blood, which will be shed for you. So what we’re reading here in Exodus 24 has a direct connect to the sacrament, John, that you were just talking about and to Jesus Christ. And while for us thinking about blood is a little bit gruesome. The apostle Peter wrote “You were not redeemed with corruptible things as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Jesus Christ.” And I think that’s really powerful to see a connection between the blood of the covenant, the old covenant, and now the blood of the new covenant that Jesus is creating.

Hank Smith:  11:25  So as we’re going through Exodus and running into altars in blood, be thinking of Jesus, focus, come back around to the blood of Christ. I love that.

John Hilton:  11:36  It appears that Moses is writing down some of the things that have been said back in Exodus 19 and 20, but he doesn’t, this is not the two tablets. The two tablets are coming up in an upcoming chapter, but apparently Moses wrote some other things down that he’s referring to as the book of the covenant.

Hank Smith:  11:54  Okay. The 10 commandments, right. That we just received. I like this. And by the way, it’s not so different from our day. You’ve got a, you’ve got a spiritual leader up there, reading commandments and everybody agreeing to keep those commandments, right? It’s, you see this in the Book of Mormon, and you see this in almost like this is almost a general conference type solemn assembly.

John Hilton:  12:18  If you wanted to add in the temple, you have the similar idea, reading commandments, making covenants, there’s an altar presence, so you’re right. Maybe there are more similarities than we think. We don’t sacrifice animals, but there are some still correspondences.

Hank Smith:  12:32  So John what are we going to do next?

John Hilton:  12:34  So, before we leave this, I want to just take another New Testament passage that ties everything together, really explicitly what we’ve been talking about. So in Hebrews chapter nine, it’s going to make a direct connection back to Exodus 24. It says “When every commandment had been told to all the people by Moses, in accordance with the law, he took the blood of the calves and sprinkled all the people, saying ‘this is the blood of the covenant.'” And then says, “Christ has appeared once for all at the end of the age, to remove sin by the sacrifice of himself in Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many will appear a second time to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.” And I love this idea, those who are eagerly waiting for him, the sacrifice is going to take effect the blood of the new covenant that Christ has shed.

Hank Smith:  13:25  That’s Hebrews. What was that, John?

John Hilton:  13:27  That’s Hebrews chapter nine. We looked at verses 19 and 20. That’s the one that ties us back to Exodus 24 and verses 26 through 28.

John Bytheway:  13:35  You quoted Peter, what was that reference?

John Hilton:  13:38  Yeah, that was first Peter chapter one verses 18 and 19. And for some of our listeners who are following along, I’m kind of flipping back and forth between the King James version and I also used the new revised standard version. You probably remembered, I don’t know, a few months ago, the church changed their policy that specifically said for personal and academic use using other versions of the Bible can be helpful. So sometimes I use the new revised standard version. So if anyone’s following along thinking, “I’m not quite there,” I just have a different version.

Hank Smith:  14:07  Yeah. That’s and you can get most of that free online.

John Hilton:  14:11  Yeah. There’s-

Hank Smith:  14:12  A lot of places you can get these.

John Bytheway:  14:13  Can I throw something in that I always liked Genesis 45:24. Joseph sends the brothers back to go get Jacob and says, “See that ye fall not out by the way.” And I liked it because it says, it sounds like he’s telling me not to fall out, see that ye fall not out by the way, but in the NIV it says “don’t quarrel on your way home.” And it made me think, can you imagine the conversation on the way home? Who’s going to tell dad we lied. Who’s going to tell dad that we killed Joseph and all these years he’s been mourning. Can you imagine the quarrel? No wonder Joseph said try to stay united on your way. To me that was a, whoa. And who did tell dad? And it just goes right into it, that Jacob’s like, “oh good.” Oh man, what a conversation that must have been.

John Hilton:  15:03  That’s a good example of how sometimes just having a different translation can spark a different thought in your mind that maybe you’ve never come across before. One other thing before we kind of wrap up Exodus 24, recently, I’ve been curious about this idea of the shedding of blood, because that’s a phrase that appears often throughout the scriptures. We just read it in Matthew 26, Jesus uses it at the last supper and the sacrament prayers. Also talk about us remembering the blood, which was shed for us. So I surveyed a couple hundred of my students and I said “When you think of the shedding of blood, what event do you think of?” And a pretty big majority said Gethsemane. And I’m definitely, I’m not minimizing the importance of Gethsemane, but in fact, when the scriptures talk about the shedding of blood, it’s a reference to death. Here in Exodus 24, they didn’t make some oxen bleed to get blood.

John Hilton:  15:53  They killed the oxen. And, for me there’s some spiritual power in remembering that the shedding of blood is death, because it’s an all-in sacrifice. When Jesus shed his blood for us, it was his death. That’s what the scriptures are referring to and so when he says in Doctrine and Covenants 27, “When you take this sacrament, remember the shedding of my blood.” He’s saying, think about my death when you take the sacrament. And at least for many of my students at BYU, that was sort of a mind expander because they said, I pretty much exclusively think about Gethsemane during the sacrament. And I’m not saying you shouldn’t think about Gethsemane during the sacrament, but for many, it’s been a powerful experience to consider both Gethsemane and Calvary during the sacrament and remembering specifically the blood that was shed for us and the Savior’s all-in sacrifice.

John Bytheway:  16:42  Is it Hebrews 9 also that says “Without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sins?” And I think how significant, as you said, John, in the prayer, on the wine or the water, this very important, which was shed for them, that he died for us, which was shed for them. I love that little part. It’s significant because it’s included in the prayer.

John Hilton:  17:05  And if you explore through the scriptures, you find that every time where there’s an explicit definition of the shedding of blood, that phrase always refers to death. That’s how Joseph Smith always referred to it. It’s not bleeding, it’s death. So at the end of Exodus 24, Moses goes up to Sinai to receive a series of revelations from the Lord. And we get those revelations in Exodus 25 through 30. And some of our listeners might have noticed that we skipped those chapters in this week’s Come Follow Me. And I think the reason for that is what we’re going to read in Exodus 25 through 30 is very similar to Exodus 35 through 40. And that’s going to be part of our readings for next week. So for now, let’s just defer our discussion of Exodus 25 through 30. So we pick up in Exodus, chapter 31, Moses is still on Sinai.

John Hilton:  17:51  He’s still talking with the Lord and there is a really cool principle right up front because the Lord is going to talk about two people that you have probably never heard of. So if we take a look here, this is verse 31. “The Lord spoke to Moses. I have called by name Bezalel. I have filled him with the spirit of God in wisdom and in understanding and in knowledge and in all manner of workmanship, to device cutting works to work in gold, silver, and brass in the cutting of stones.” So this guy, Bezalel is going to be a key player in building the tabernacle, but he’s not the only one. If we keep going “Behold, I have given with him Oholiab, and in the hearts of all the wise hearted, I have put wisdom that they may make all that I have commanded thee.” These chapters in 25 through 30 are given the instructions for building the tabernacle and various other things that go along with it.

John Hilton:  18:42  And now the Lord names, Bezalel, Oholiab, and many other people who are going to assist in this work. And in the following chapters, they’re going to appear frequently, and there’s so much we can learn from these lesser known characters. For one, they’re types of Christ, Jesus Christ. One of his titles is the creator and Bezalel and Oholiab are now going to be doing these creations. If we were to jump over to Exodus chapter 36, verse two, it says Moses called Bezalel and Oholiab and every wise hearted person in whose heart, the Lord had put wisdom. Even everyone whose heart stirred them up to come to the work to do it. And I love that it’s not just the people that God specifically called by name, Bezalel and Oholiab, but anyone, if the Lord was putting it into your heart to come and help on the tabernacle, you were called to the work, reminds me of the Doctrine and Covenants, right?

John Hilton:  19:33  If you have desires to serve you’re called to the work. One of the things that we’ll learn is that Bezalel and Oholiab and those who are working with them make clothing for those who will be officiating in the tabernacle. And that clothing is, in many respects, similar to the temple clothing that we have Oholiab is going to make a little signet that says “Holiness to the Lord,” which we see something similar on temples today. And so I think it’s really cool that if you went to the temple recently, you probably were connected with Bezalel and Oholiab, as you put on your temple clothes or worshiped and saw a phrase holiness to the Lord, but you never thought about Bezalel and Oholiab.

John Hilton:  20:09  They’re kind of along the lines of those people like Sam or Shiblon where they’re a little less on your own character. They don’t get a lot of screen time, but they’re a big part of the Lord’s work. And I think that’s a really hopeful message for all of us who might feel like, oh, does anyone know what we’re doing? Well, probably not. And we don’t know what Bezalel and Oholiab did, but it made a big difference.

John Bytheway:  20:30  It’s like the line “no less serviceable” in the Book of Mormon.

John Hilton:  20:33  “Helaman and his brethren were no less serviceable.”

John Bytheway:  20:36  Yeah.

John Hilton:  20:37  Chief Captain Moroni, he’s pretty awesome. He’s you know, winning battles, but-

John Bytheway:  20:40  Yeah, Teancum was not one wit behind. Yeah.

Hank Smith:  20:43  Verse three is a great place to talk about the influence of the Holy Ghost. I filled him with the spirit of God, wisdom, understanding, knowledge, and I like this, in all manner of workmanship. So my dad used to say, he was a golf professional, and he’d say, I play better golf when I read my scriptures. And I always thought that was really odd, right? Because nowhere in the scriptures does it talk about the sand trap on 11 and, but he believed this idea that the spirit is not just about religious things. We think of the Spirit of God, we think, oh, he can pray really well, or he’s a good missionary or, but this idea of all manner of workmanship, the spirit can fill your job as engineer or as a teacher or as a plumber, right? The Holy Ghost can be part of your work.

John Bytheway:  21:34  Hank, that reminds me too, of something that’s important to the new children and youth program is the Luke 2:52 verse that speaks of Jesus increasing in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God, and in favor with man and all of those areas are affected when we have the spirit. That’s a good point.

John Hilton:  21:51  And I also want to highlight too, that sometimes you might not have a certain talent. Maybe you feel, well, the spirit hasn’t filled me with a talent of art. So I guess I’m not going to be able to contribute. I love how the verse actually says “everyone’s whose heart stirred him up to come unto the work to do it was called.” So you don’t have to have mad skills. Sometimes the Holy Ghost will just bless you. When you stand up and start working, your talents will be magnified. And I’ll be honest. I flunked art in sixth grade. So probably Bezalel and Oholiab probably didn’t want me on their team.

Hank Smith:  22:23  You had to be really bad for a sixth grade teacher to say you’re done.

John Hilton:  22:27  Isn’t that sad, that is a true story though. So you might feel like, “oh, I don’t have the natural capabilities,” but the Lord can magnify whatever you have when you’re called to the work. And sometimes it’s a self call where you feel inspired to just go and contribute. I don’t think, I mean, just think about this podcast. You guys created this podcast and between Brother and Sister Sorensen and your talents and others, you were called to the work, but this wasn’t something that you woke up one morning and said, “we’re going to make this happen.” As you had desires to serve, it came to be.

Hank Smith:  23:01  How do we help those if their calling isn’t up front? Cause sometimes it’s like, well, Moses gets all the screen time. And here you highlighted some people who are doing incredible work, reminds me of the Latter-day Saints who built the Salt Lake temple, who worked on door knobs that were probably never going to be seen. All the detail was there. If I’m in one of those callings, how do I help me see that it’s not about being in front. It’s about being close to the Lord and being filled with the Spirit.

John Bytheway:  23:33  When you say that, Hank, what I think of is the sermon on the Mount, how often Jesus repeated the Lord would see it in secret shall reward thee openly. And there’s something wonderful about doing things that aren’t out in front and knowing that the Lord saw that maybe nobody else did. And another thing I thought of when you were asking the question was Elder Jeffrey R. Holland gave a talk. I think it was called Always Remember Him, and he kind of made a list of things we can remember about the Savior during the sacrament. And he made this just wonderful statement about if you ever feel, and I’m paraphrasing, unknown or unseen in what you’re doing, so did one of the best men who ever lived. And he talked about Joseph, the stepfather of Jesus. And I thought, wow, what a great way to, because we know relatively little about Joseph, but Elder Holland called him one of the best men who ever lived.

John Hilton:  24:23  And sometimes, maybe the things we’re talking about are easier to say than to actually do or feel. But the more we can really focus on Jesus, it’s not about Moses getting the 10 commandments. It’s about Jesus connecting with the people. It’s not about who built the best doorknob at the temple. It’s about being in the temple, connecting with Jesus Christ. And so I remember in one of my callings, I used to serve as the stake clerk and I was, would kind of be in the office processing checks, and honestly it felt a little tedious at times. And one time I was processing a check for girls camp for the bus to take the young women to girls camp. And I was like, I would rather be speaking at girls camp. I got some unique talents. I’d rather be doing something like this.

John Hilton:  25:00  Why am I here? Just like writing out a little check. And all of a sudden this impression came to me from the Holy Ghost. John, if you don’t write this check, they don’t go to girls camp. If they don’t go to girls camp, some people might not gain a testimony that’s going to take them to the temple. You are not in an office, writing a check. You are helping people go to the temple and make sacred covenants. And for me, that was such a great reframe that whatever my church calling is, if I can remember, no I’m not feeding Cheerios to a child in nursery, I’m helping prepare this child to connect with Jesus Christ through covenants. Then whatever calling or wherever I’m serving is going to have a totally different feel.

Hank Smith:  25:39  I’m going to grab a quote way back from the 1900s. Some of our listeners remember the 1900s. This is President Gordon B. Hinkley. I can hear his voice when I read his words, but he said this quote. “Now my brethren and sisters, in conclusion, I wish to leave with you one thought, which I hope you will never forget. The church does not belong to its President. Its head is the Lord Jesus Christ, whose name each of us has taken upon ourselves. We are all in this great endeavor together. We are here to assist our father in his work and glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Your obligation is as serious in your sphere of responsibility as is my obligation in my sphere. No calling in this church is of small or little consequence. All of us in the pursuit of our duty, touch the lives of others.

Hank Smith:  26:30  To each of us in our respective responsibilities the Lord has said, be faithful, stand in the office, which I have appointed you. Succor the weak, lift up the hands that hang down and strengthen the feeble knees.” Later on, this is April of ‘95. He says “You have as great an opportunity for satisfaction in the performance of your duty, as I do in mine. The progress of this work will be determined by our joint efforts.” I just remember him saying that “Your responsibility is as important in your sphere as in mine,” and I remember sitting there going really, because you seem to, you seem to have a lot of responsibility and obligation, but, I remember it. He told us to never forget. And it came back to my mind.

John Bytheway:  27:15  I remember that too. I just remember going, “Wow. He, President Hinkley views his calling like this is my calling. What’s your calling? And yours is just as important,” And I remember that, Hank, I’m glad you brought that up.

Hank Smith:  27:31  John, this is just really good, that we’re going to highlight, I can’t even say, say their names again for me?

John Hilton:  27:37  Well, and you never know with some of these Old Testament names Bezalel and Oholiab is how I’m saying them today.

Hank Smith:  27:42  Bezalel and Oholiab these are important names.

John Hilton:  27:44  That is one of the things. And I’ll just throw this out as something to look for for the rest of the Old Testament is try to find these lesser known characters. Pretty soon on Come Follow Me we’re going to start skipping a lot of chapters just because the Old Testament is so long, but in your personal time, if you get the chance to read an extra chapter or two, there are some great lesser known characters. And so to sort of pause and say, what can I learn from Bezalel and Oholiab? And I hope that the next time you go to the temple, that you’ll think a little bit about them. And maybe before we leave them, if I could share one other quote, this one’s from president Uchtdorf about creation. Because I think Bezalel and Oholiab are heroes for all of us. Even if you don’t have great artistic talents, he said “The desire to create is one of the deepest yearnings of the human soul.

John Hilton:  28:28  No matter our talents, education, background, or abilities, we each have an inherent wish to create something that did not exist before. Everyone can create. You don’t need money, position or influence in order to create something of substance or beauty. Creation brings deep satisfaction and fulfillment. We develop ourselves and others when we take unorganized matter into our hands and mold it into something of beauty. You may think you don’t have talents, but that is a false assumption, for we all have talents and gifts. Every one of us. The bounds of creativity extend far beyond the limits of a canvas or a sheet of paper and do not require a brush, a pen or the keys of a piano. Creation means bringing into existence something that did not exist before. Colorful gardens, harmonious homes, family memories, flowing laughter.”

John Hilton:  29:19  And then President Uchtdorf just basically gave an invitation saying create something, whether it’s creating beauty in your home or learning a skill, but all of us can create. And that’s I think a special lesson, not just from Bezalel and Oholiab, but remember there were many other anonymous people whose hearts were just inspired to go and do. Like Steve and Shannon Sorensen, right? You just, your heart was filled with some inspiration to create. And if you got that desire, you’re called to the work.

Hank Smith:  29:45  And we were grateful they did.

John Bytheway:  29:47  And we get to talk to some amazing people every week.

Hank Smith:  29:51  It would be easy to skip chapter 31, 1 through 11 and go, oh, okay, looks like some guys are there and they’re going to help do a little work on the tabernacle. But I think stopping here and saying, no, look, this is important, can help people say, oh, maybe I wouldn’t have noticed that. It’s nice to say, as I’m going through the scriptures, go slow. There’s some things that you can learn as you start to just kind of ponder. Why is this in here? Why are we being told about Bezalel and Oholiab, I’m grateful we stopped and took a look.

John Hilton:  30:23  There’s definitely a fun family home evening activity in there with Bezalel and Oholiab.

Hank Smith:  30:25  Yeah.

John Hilton:  30:27  Maybe if we jump down to verse 12, now we start to see a theme that has come up multiple times already and it’s going to continue throughout scripture, which is honoring the Sabbath day. So just starting verse 12, the Lord said to Moses, “You yourself are to speak to the Israelites. You shall keep my Sabbaths for this as a sign between me and you throughout your generations, given in order that ye may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you.” And I think this is one of those principles where it’s just, I doubt any of our listeners today are like, whoa, keep the Sabbath day holy like my mind has been blown, right? What are some of the practical things that you’ve done to try to put into practice this idea? You know, verse 15, six days shall the work be done, but the seventh is a day of solemn rest holy to the Lord. How do we really do that in our lives?

John Bytheway:  31:15  Take it away. Hank.

Hank Smith:  31:17  You ready, Bytheway? I’m marking all the places where he talks about the Sabbath. And obviously this is important to the Lord. This is the next thing he talks about. Here we’ve got, we’re going to make this tabernacle and we have the place. Now we’re going to have the day, right? I think this has been quoted before John, if you look at Exodus 31:17, he talks, the Lord says, this is a sign between me and you. This is a signal between me and you. One thing I’ve learned as I study the life of Christ as a New Testament teacher is I notice him doing a lot of healing on the Sabbath day. And I’ve asked myself that question before, am I healing? Either myself, family members, relationships, ward members, neighbors, am I helping to heal others?

Hank Smith:  32:07  That’s been a question that’s come to my mind over and over, as I study the life of Christ. Probably the one thing I’ve learned as a parent and maybe I’m being too open here, but I get into trouble when I force my children. It’s no longer a sign between them and God, it’s coercion between them and their father, right? When I force them to keep the Sabbath day. And there’s always a balance there, and parenting is difficult for everyone, but the why behind it is the sign between me, and the Lord, which I think is crucial to remember.

John Hilton:  32:42  And a few years ago, when President Nelson gave a talk on the Sabbath day, it was really interesting that that was the idea he focused on from Ezekiel 20:20, but it’s the same principle that the Sabbath is a sign. And so he didn’t give a list of here’s the 10 things to do on Sunday. Here’s the list of 10 things not to do on Sunday, but just like the general principle, how I treat the Sabbath is a sign of how I feel about the Lord. And I love that healing principle is what I’m doing, bringing healing.

John Bytheway:  33:06  It almost makes me nervous to talk about it because I don’t want to sound like, and everybody else should do what we do too. I guess that’s the thing for us to make the day, the Lord’s day. And I think about, if it’s my wife’s birthday, this is her day. I want to do something different for her and a sign to her that I care about her. Well, in the same way, what John just read about verse 13 and you read Hank verse 17, a sign between me and thee, what can I do on that day to make sure the Lord knows, I’m aware this is your day.

John Hilton:  33:44  And it’s going to be different for every individual. As we’ve been reading in Exodus for Come Follow Me, I realized my kids have never seen the movie the 10 commandments. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s like a four hour movie. This could be a whole month of-

John Bytheway:  33:55  It’s epic.

John Hilton:  33:55  Right.

John Bytheway:  33:55  Yeah.

John Hilton:  33:56  -Sunday movie watching. You mentioned this, watching the Savior and what he does on the Sabbath. And there’s a little Joseph Smith translation passage from Mark chapter two. And in context, the disciples have been plucking grain on the Sabbath and they’re criticized and Jesus is asked, why do your disciples do that which they shouldn’t be doing on the Sabbath day? Jesus responds “Wherefore the Sabbath was given unto man for a day of rest. And also that Man should glorify God. And not that man should not eat, for the son of man made the Sabbath day. Therefore, the son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath.”

John Hilton:  34:33  And I love that principle of the Sabbath is a day to glorify God kind of like with healing. That’s sort of a principle I can ask myself, is what I’m doing glorifying God? What that actually looks like in practice for each of us will be different, but this might be a great thing to sit down and have a family council about and say, “What could we do as a family to show a sign, and doesn’t have to be a radical, huge thing, but maybe there’s something small that our family could do that would really show a sign to the Lord. Today is a day of healing. Today is a day to glorify you.”

John Bytheway:  35:04  Thanks for bringing up Jesus in healing, because when you read it’s almost unbelievable. He heals a man at the pool of Bethesda, 38 years with that infirmity. And what those around him focus on is, “Hey, it’s the Sabbath” not, “Wow, this is great. For 38 years, he has dealt with that. What a wonderful thing.” And Jesus seems to get, be getting our focus back on people and healing instead of a rule.

Hank Smith:  35:36  The Sabbath can be a delight, right? This is sometimes we feel like this is a burden or a weight when it could be more, we could think of it as a blessing. The Sabbath could be not a weight, but wings to take you places you usually don’t go.

John Bytheway:  35:51  And it was not a day of rest, particularly when I served as a Bishop, not the way we normally think of rest, but what did I rest from? I tried to rest from worldly things and worldly cares and-

Hank Smith:  36:04  Your labors.

John Bytheway:  36:05  Labors. Right? And I could-

Hank Smith:  36:06  Not, not my labors. The Lord says.

John Bytheway:  36:08  I could focus on the things that we’ve just been talking about instead.

John Hilton:  36:12  And, and maybe just to wrap this up, I love that, at least when I was younger, sometimes the Sabbath seemed like a day of don’ts, don’t do this, don’t do that.

John Bytheway:  36:21  A day of don’ts. That’s good.

John Hilton:  36:25  The Sabbath is a day of dos. There’s so many good things that we can do. And lots of fun things. My wife wrote an Ensign article. Maybe we can link to it in the show notes about gospel games you can play on the Sabbath. There’s so much good that we can do. And again, we don’t need to be fair say a lot of us say, you can only do these 10 things. Just if we have in our hearts, the principles of healing, glorifying God, what kind of sign am I sending? The spirit will guide us.

Hank Smith:  36:51  One thing I’ve learned from reading the life of Jesus is there’s probably one thing he doesn’t want us to do on the Sabbath. And that is judging how other people live on the Sabbath. He’s probably, there’s one don’t, this is an inward looking principle. This is where you look at yourself and focus on yourself. I like the verse in Exodus 31:17, it talks about the Lord made heaven and earth and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed. That’s a beautiful idea, kind of the spiritual refreshments.

John Hilton:  37:24  That takes us to Exodus chapter 32, and there’s a lot that we’re going to want to dig into in Exodus 32. And I’ll start just with verse one and we’ll come to different parts of it throughout. But in verse one, we read when the people saw that Moses, delayed to come down from the mountain, he’s been there for 40 days and 40 nights. The people gather around Aaron and said to him, “Come make gods for us, who shall go before us, for this Moses, the man who brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we do not know what has become of him.” We’ll explore more in just a detail, but let’s pause for a minute on the delay. And I think a great question for us to ask ourselves is, are you, am I, are we faithful in the delay? Moses has been gone a long time.

John Hilton:  38:07  And three times the people have specifically covenanted everything that God says, we’ll do. We saw that in Exodus 19, we see it in Exodus 24. So they have just recently said, we’re going to do everything God says, but now with the delay, they’re losing hope. And I don’t want to be too critical of them. I see this in myself. In fact, the prophet Mormon says, this is a common human tendency in Alma 46:8. He says, “Thus, we see how quick the children of men do forget the Lord, their God, how quick to do iniquity and to be led away by the evil one.” And so I think it’s worth just kind of pausing for a moment and thinking about what do I do in the middle when there’s that delay?

John Hilton:  38:49  When we did our Easter podcast last year, we talked about the Saturday. So that Christ was crucified on Friday. That’s the tragedy. He’s going to be resurrected on Sunday. That’s the triumph, but in between the disciples could have fled, but instead they stayed near Jesus. And I think that’s kind of what we’re missing in Exodus 32 verse one they’re in the middle period. It’s the delay, but instead of doubling their focus in hope on Christ, there’s well, we better turn to another God now.

John Bytheway:  39:18  I think that there was a delay for Joseph that we’ve just studied. He keeps the law of chastity and his reward, If you look at it, cynically is to be thrown into prison. And so what is he going to do during that delay? That’s a good way to look at it or Job, which we’ll talk about next. President Ezra Taft Benson said once that “one of the trials of life is that we do not usually receive immediately the full blessing for righteousness or the full cursing for wickedness, that it will come at a certain, but off times, there is a waiting period that occurs as was the case with Job and with Joseph”. What a great point. It’s a trial that there’s a delay. So what are you going to do during the delay? Look at the Beatitudes. Blessed are the right now for they, what? Shall be, someday, there’s a delay. I like that idea of being faithful during the delay.

Hank Smith:  40:11  I like that too. I think of Egypt sometimes as maybe an addiction or a sinful life, and they were let out of it. There’s always this pull to go back, right? Go back to Egypt. And so in the delay, you can almost sense that pull, make us gods, right? That’s an Egyptian thing. That’s what they, would’ve done back in Egypt, make us gods, which shall go before us. So don’t go back to Egypt. If you’re a new member of the church and you join the church and now you’re here and there’s a little bit of a lull, right? A delay. Don’t go back. Don’t head back to Egypt, even in your mind, it’s almost like they don’t want to go back physically, but in their minds, they’re going back to Egypt or the delays of tragedy. I’m doing all that I’ve been asked to do and things are not going well, or I’m not seeing the blessings maybe I assumed would be coming. I’m going to go find other blessings.

John Hilton:  41:08  Hank and John, I don’t want to put you guys on the spot, but do either of you have a personal story that you want to tell about delay in your life, where there was a delay and maybe that was discouraging but you were able to stay strong even in the middle of that delay.

John Bytheway:  41:21  Well, I got married at 33 years old.

Hank Smith:  41:24  I was going to say, John’s 20s could have been.

John Hilton:  41:29  I think that’s actually really good.

Hank Smith:  41:31  Yeah.

John Hilton:  41:31  I mean, that’s powerful.

Hank Smith:  41:32  Yeah. Do you want to talk about that, John?

John Bytheway:  41:34  Well, I have, I’ve joked about this with some people that I know that have some sort of a clause in their patriarchal blessing about in the time of the Lord or in due time, that’s kind of the delay and mine had the old in due time clause about marriage. I was trying to be where I should be, doing what I should do is just not an exact science for everybody, that whole thing. And so that was a long delay for me that caused myself and others to pull me aside and wonder what my deal was, to put it nicely. Some were not that nice about it, but I kept going back to my blessing. It says it right there. I just got to do what I’m supposed to do, be where I’m supposed to be and be faithful in the delay. I guess that delay was hard.

John Bytheway:  42:23  But when I met my wife and things just kind of unfolded right in front of me and it was, it was so wonderful. And that delay of, I forgot about that, because things worked out so well. And as I say that, I’m aware that a very large group are wonderful saints in our church are single adults. And that delay is still going on perhaps for them, and even some in the next life. And so it’s a topic that touches all of our hearts and touches many hearts to be faithful during that delay. And I just hope we all can just simply connect to Christ during those times, be where we’re supposed to be, doing what we’re supposed to be doing.

John Bytheway:  43:04  111:11 of the Doctrine and Covenants just blessed me so much, when the Lord said, “Because wise as serpents yet without sin, I will order all things for your good, as fast as ye are able to receive them.” That was like my motto during that delay was, I’m ordering things for you. And I am judging when you are able. And that was a “Okay, I’m handing this to you.” That scripture blessed my life a lot and hopefully can bless others during the delay.

Hank Smith:  43:35  The end of 32 verse one, the people say this man, Moses, we want not, or we know not what has become of him, reminds me a little bit of Joseph in Liberty Jail. Oh God, where art thou? and I think we’re all going to have moments where we wonder where God went. We’ve had these incredible experiences before, and now the heavens seem silent. What’s happened? And there’s this moment in John 9, where the Savior heals the blind man, and then he faces all sorts of persecution from people who want him to change his story. Jesus is a sinner, give glory to God, and he just won’t do it, in the delay he will not back down from his testimony. And once that concludes, the Savior comes back to him and says, “Do you believe?” There’s this idea of, I will wait, for further light and knowledge. I will wait. I will be faithful, no matter how long it takes. I, in the delays of life, we learn patience. We learn patience with the Lord. And with the plan.

John Hilton:  44:43  Hank, you just mentioned John chapter nine. If we went two chapters further to John chapter 11, there’s another example of delay. Jesus hears the message Lazarus is sick. And he delays a couple of days too, he waits. And again, there’s a message. God has all power. He can heal us, but sometimes, for his wisdom, he will delay. And I just want to say probably some people who are listening right now, you are in, you are in the delay right now. And I would testify that Jesus Christ lives, do not lose hope. Keep going strong. As you work through the delay, that healing will come. Someday. And it might be today. It might be tomorrow. And it might not be till the next life. The healing will come, stay close to Jesus, because he is real. And he is the source of that healing.

Hank Smith:  45:30  Stay true to the promises you made. Didn’t you tell us, John, these people had made promises three times to do this, and that delay hits.

John Bytheway:  45:38  That phrase waiting upon the Lord comes to mind too. And here they’re waiting upon Moses. Sometimes we have to wait. And I just think of that line from Princess Bride. “I hate waiting. None of us love waiting. It’s a test.” What’ll we do during the delay? This, this is great.

John Hilton:  45:59  And maybe for those who are interested in digging more into this, there’s a great talk from Elder Jeffrey R. Holland we can put in the show notes, cast not away your confidence, what to do when you’ve kind of felt the spirit, but then you’re left to yourself for a while. And the message of cast not away your confidence is really powerful. So we’ll come back in just a minute to the golden calf episode, but I want to jump first to verse 11. And there’s a really, I think great thing that we can do with our scripture study. And that is to study how prophets pray, not just what they say about prayer, but how they talk to God, how they communicate in prayer. And we have the chance to see this a few times today with Moses and what he’s saying.

John Hilton:  46:39  So, the people are doing all this naughty stuff, and the Lord tells Moses that this is going on. And he says, look, I’m going to have to destroy all these people, Moses, we’re going to have to start, forget about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. We’re just going to start over with you. But then in verse 11, Moses implored the Lord and said, “Oh Lord, why does your wrath burn hot against your people? Whom you brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with the mighty hand, why should the Egyptians say it was with evil intent he brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to consume them from the face of the earth. Turn from your fierce wrath, change your mind. Don’t bring disaster on your people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.” You can kind of see Moses is kind of logically trying to persuade the Lord, oh, maybe do a different path.

John Hilton:  47:24  And I was one time in a setting where a church leader gave us the invitation to carefully study the Book of Mormon and look for every time a prophet prayed. And so I made a little spreadsheet. We can put that on the show notes too. As I was reading this, I thought I need to go do the same thing for the Bible. Find every time in the Bible, a person prays. And if we really wanted to do something powerful, we could find every time Jesus prays, like in John 17 or 35:19, what can we learn from these prophetic prayers? And one thing that I learned from Moses here is put your heart into it. It’s not just saying bless the food to strengthen our body. He’s really thinking carefully and trying to tell the Lord, pour out his heart to him about the situation he’s in.

John Hilton:  48:10  And I think that’s a great model for me in my prayers. And then if we want to just flip over to verse 31, this is later in the chapter, we’ll come back to the narrative in a second, but while we’re talking about prayer. So, Moses returned to the Lord and said, “Alas, this people have sinned a great sin, they have made for themselves gods of gold. But now, if you will only forgive their sin, but if not, blot me out of the book, which you have written.” And I think that’s a powerful phrase of prayer for Moses to say, if you can’t forgive them, Lord, please, take me instead. And there, I think we see Moses as a type of Christ. In fact, just in the verse before that or two verses before that in verse 30, Moses says, “I will go to the Lord. Perhaps I can make an atonement for your sins.”

John Hilton:  49:01  As we read about Moses saying, if not, take me, it reminds me of one of the things that Jesus Christ says. This is Doctrine and Covenants, section 45. Jesus says, “Listen to him who is the advocate with the father who is pleading your cause before him, saying father behold, the sufferings and death of him who did no sin in whom that was well pleased. Behold, the blood of thy son, which was shed. The blood of him, whom now gavest that thyself might be glorified, wherefore father spare these, my brethren that believe on my name, that they may come unto me and have everlasting life.” You see Moses as a type of Christ here pleading specifically for the people that he’s serving. And again, that’s just a reminder to me, am I pouring my heart out in prayer for those people that I’m serving?

Hank Smith:  49:53  Hmm. You know, John, there may be a tendency here in Exodus 32 to say, oh man, the Lord is really angry and upset, but rather, perhaps he’s allowing Moses the opportunity to express his faith in the people, where the Lord says, “I’m very upset with them. Moses, what do you think about that?” I just think there’s a cool idea here instead of saying, wow, the Lord is really upset. I just think he’s giving Moses an opportunity to defend these people and saying, Hey, I believe in them, despite their-

John Hilton:  50:24  In spite of everything they’re doing, I believe in them, but they will repent. Also the Joseph Smith translation for chapter 32 verse 14. The Lord said “if they will repent, I will spare them.” And we see the mercy and real quick, just while we’re on these two verses that have talked about repentance, this is again, kind of like the Sabbath, a principle that comes up over and over again. And I think sometimes repentance can have a harsh connotation, in our society, Elder Jeffrey R. Holland called it one of the most hopeful words in the Christian vocabulary. As we’re going to see, the Lord is going to turn away his wrath. And so in our lives, if there’s things that we’re struggling with, we can repent just like the children of Israel are repenting here.

John Bytheway:  51:07  Yeah. You know, during the height of the pandemic, when I was doing my classes over zoom, I just, I had the word repent on a slide. And I said, put the word that comes to your mind when I show that, just put it in the chat window and let’s read them and let’s see what everybody thinks. And, there’s justice and condemnation and you need to change and all this sort of a thing, but you’re right. Elder Holland, the most hopeful and encouraging word in the whole Christian vocabulary. And what I loved also is in the Bible dictionary, it says that repentance means “a fresh view about God, about one’s self and about the world,” which is such a nice way to put it, a fresh view about God, about one’s self and about the world. The way Elder Holland and the Bible dictionary put it makes it just change your mind about God and yourself and the world. So I’m glad you mentioned that.

John Hilton:  51:57  And in that same talk, Elder Holland, I’m paraphrasing here, but he says something like it’s a satanic sucker punch to think it takes eons and eons of eternity to repent. It takes exactly as long to repent as to say I’ll repent and mean it. That’s also an important idea to remember that we can do this. It’s possible.

John Bytheway:  52:17  Please join us for part two of this podcast.