Hank Smith: 00:00:01 Welcome to followHIM. A weekly podcast, dedicated to helping individuals and families with their Come Follow Me study, I’m Hank Smith.

John Bytheway: 00:00:09 And I’m John Bytheway.

Hank Smith: 00:00:10 We love to learn.

John Bytheway: 00:00:11 We love to laugh.

Hank Smith: 00:00:13 We want To learn and laugh with you.

John Bytheway: 00:00:15 As together, we follow Him.

Hank Smith: 00:00:19 Hello everyone. Welcome to followHIM. My name is Hank Smith, I’m your host. I’m here with my peculiar treasure co-host, John Bytheway. John, if there’s any word that I think describes-

John Bytheway: 00:00:37 It’s peculiar.

Hank Smith: 00:00:39 … it’s peculiar, yeah.

John Bytheway: 00:00:41 Just this morning. My wife said that to me.

Hank Smith: 00:00:43 Yeah, just a sweetheart. We’re going to be an Exodus 18, 19, 20 today. We needed a brilliant mind and we got one. Who’s with us, John?

John Bytheway: 00:00:55 We did. I’m really excited to introduce Dr. Dan Belnap. He was born in Coeur d’Alene, Idaho, raised in Pocatello and Sandy, Utah. He served a full-time mission to the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh Mission, married Erin Pinney in 1997. They have four children, Emma, Jack, Samuel, and Tabitha. And he received a bachelor’s in international relations from BYU, masters in Ancient Near Eastern studies from BYU and a master’s and a PhD in Northwest Semitics from the University of Chicago. He’s worked as a part-time instructor before becoming an assistant professor in 2007 and was advanced to the rank of professor in 2020.

John Bytheway: 00:01:40 His areas of research include cultural and sociological influences in the Book of Mormon, use of ritual in ancient and contemporary contexts, doctrines of ascension and theosis in ancient Near East and Late Antiquity and comparative cosmologies. And his bio has languages, Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic, Syrian, German, French, and a little Greek. Just amazing and a lot of our listeners have this book From Creation to Sinai, which a Deseret book published recently, which is really helpful in making the Old Testament language, symbolism and history, kind of putting those together in an easier way to understand. Dan, you co-wrote that book with Aaron Schade?

Hank Smith: 00:02:23 Yes. From Creation to Sinai.

John Bytheway: 00:02:27 From Creation to Sinai, right where we are today. We’re going to be in Sinai today, is that right?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:02:33 Well, we’re going to be there. I should say about the book. Aaron and I did not write the book, we are the editors of the book. It’s got a number of different authors in it and some of them appeared on your show and it’s a great collaboration we think.

John Bytheway: 00:02:47 A compilation of scholarly articles about these chapters that we’re studying right now?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:02:52 Right.

Hank Smith: 00:02:53 Lots of insight. Well, Dan, we want to just glean as much as we can from you. We’ve left Egypt. We’ve murmured quite a bit. We are receiving water out of rocks. Manna from heaven. How do you want to come at this Exodus 18, 19 and 20?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:03:11 Well, what’s interesting is that chapter 18 picks up with a particular narrative, namely the one in which Jethro, Moses’s father-in-law has come to Moses and said, “You are doing way too much. You’re taking way too much on your shoulders. You need to spread the authority and the responsibility out.” What’s interesting about that narrative, just to jump ahead is in many ways you don’t get the second half of that story until about Numbers 11. In Numbers 11, picks it up and then you have the story of the 70 elders that are gathered at the temple. And the two that remain behind and yet are filled with the Spirit.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:03:46 To some degree, chapter 19 of Exodus, all the way through Numbers 10, at least according to some biblical scholars is almost like an insert. You’ve interrupted the story to expand out this particular period of time or this particular series of events. And those events all have to do with what happens when Israel gets to Sinai following Egypt. And chapter 18, in some ways is separate from chapters 19 and 20, simply because we’ve got another story, another narrative, but then we have this huge expansion that is Exodus 19 through Numbers 10. In terms of structure, in terms of the Bible, that’s one of the first things I’d just point out is that, the narrative of 18 really stops until Numbers 11 and then that narrative picks up at that point.

Hank Smith: 00:04:33 That’s a big insert. That’s not small, that we’re talking 100 pages.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:04:40 Oh yeah. And it could be, again, we don’t have all the reasons for that. There’s a type of methodological approach to scripture, which I think others have talked about on the show. I would assume they have, called source criticism. The idea that the version of the Bible that we’re reading, regardless of the original writers, the original author, we’re looking at a later compiled version, much like the Book of Mormon.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:05:05 So the Book of Mormon isn’t necessarily the original words of say Alma, but they’re Mormon’s version of Alma’s words. He uses different sources to tell the narrative. Well, we look at these passages and according to some biblical scholars, this is one of the most dense and confused passage of scripture, simply because they see so many sources that have talked about it. And what that really suggests is, among the narratives so far of the Bible, this may be the most important one.

Hank Smith: 00:05:37 I remember at one point we were talking to Dan Peterson, he talked about the beginning of the Moabites, with Lot and his daughters. And I said something to the effect of, “Oh, so perhaps the writer is putting a little jab at the current enemy?” And someone wrote in and said, “What do you mean the writer? It’s Moses.” And I was like, “Well…” And you deal with that I’m sure with your students is, “This is Moses, right?” And you’re like, “Well, yes and no.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:06:08 The Book of Mormon’s a great model for this, because you’re looking at a book that, where we know who the editors are, it’s Mormon and Moroni. They are pretty clear as to what texts they’re using. I always like 35:5 because Mormon tells you exactly why he’s using what text he’s using, but he tells you something like the fact of, “And the 20th year passed and the 21st and the 22nd, the 23rd and yay, even the 25th.” He has said nothing about those five years at all. And then he says, Now I recognize that if someone else were writing this, there were some great and marvelous things that happened, but I’m not putting that in my record. And here’s why I’m not. And what I haven’t touched. So the idea that we have an editor or a group of editors later that are editing earlier material really shouldn’t surprise any Latter Day Saint. And that’s what you’re seeing in the Bible.

Hank Smith: 00:07:02 Yeah. You’re seeing maybe what was some originally written by Moses, but then later editors are adding, taking away. And so do you think this insert, how much of this is Moses? Is there no way to… There’s no way to tell?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:07:15 There’s no way to tell, but what I would say is I don’t have a problem with the original being Moses at all. What I’m saying is that groups that have come later have used it for different purposes, different teaching purposes. And by virtue of that, the final compilers have just taken all of these traditions and just cramped them all together. It’s like if you’re looking at a sculpture, it’s important to see it from more than just one side, you need to see two or three or other sides. Because you get a full three dimensional understanding of that sculpture. Well, we can look at it the same way these later editors or compilers have looked at this material and they have two or three different versions of this story and all from and perspectives.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:08:00 And they’re putting them together. As a Latter-day Saint, we do that with the first vision. Joseph Smith has four versions of the first vision in different contexts to different people, doesn’t mean any one of them is wrong. Doesn’t mean he lied about anything, but by using those four, we get a better grasp of what the first vision is. And so we can think the same thing. Really, the only difference here in the Bible with the Book of Mormon is, the Book of Mormon we know who the editor is. It’s Mormon. He tells us outright. This time we don’t really know, but we can guess to some degree what they’re trying to do. The Book of Deuteronomy ends with someone writing. And if it’s Moses, it’s awesome, because he’s like, “And there was Moses and there’s been no prophet like Moses since.” He’s the greatest thing ever, which if Moses is writing that, that’s awesome.

Hank Smith: 00:08:49 Yeah. Just before he dies, there’s no one like Moses.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:08:53 Right. But I think the idea that you’re looking at different versions and the same thing shows up at the end of the Book of John. And so you just see these places where it’s clear that these are texts that are important. And in these events where you have multiple, here’s the way I’d put it, almost multiple witnesses of this event, just like you would have multiple witnesses elsewhere. You have these different sources, all talking about the same event and a later compiler going, “You know what? These all work together great.”

Hank Smith: 00:09:23 Great. Well, John, we’re going to have to say, “Okay, there’s a little break here in between Exodus 18 and 19.” And when we get to Numbers 11, we’ll have to say, “Hey, we’re back onto the storyline.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:09:35 That’s exactly right.

Hank Smith: 00:09:36 We’re-

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:09:36 Meanwhile, back at the ranch. Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:09:38 Yeah. That’s okay, well, let’s do 18. And then, yeah, let’s do 19 and 20, but realize that this is the beginning of an insert. I like that.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:09:51 Chapter 18 has the basic story. As I mentioned earlier, or at least I summarized earlier, Moses has a bit of a problem. They’re all out of Egypt and he’s taking way too much on his own time. He’s taking way too much. And so his father-in-law comes to him. And I always like this because his father-in-law ultimately, that it’s his father-in-law saying it, I think is intriguing. It suggests that Moses perhaps isn’t paying as much attention to Jethro’s daughter as Jethro thinks. So the father-in-law’s coming to give him some advice going, “Yeah. You know what? You need to pay more attention with your family. That’s what you need to be doing.”

Hank Smith: 00:10:32 If it was my family, it would’ve gone from my wife to my mother-in-law, for my mother-in-law to my father-in-law and father-in-law to me.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:10:39 There you go. You’re exactly right. That’s exactly right. And so that’s what you see. Verse 14, I think does a pretty good job of this. Well, verse 13 says that Moses sat to judge the people and the people stood by Moses from morning unto evening. And when Moses’ father-in-law saw all that he did to the people. He said, “What is this thing that thou doest to the people? Why sittest thyself alone and all thy people stand by thee from morning until even?”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:11:03 And Moses’ response is, “Well, the people come to me to inquire of God and to make judgements and make these decisions.” And verse 17 Moses’ father-in-law said him, “The thing that thou doest is not good.” And that’s not good Moses. “Though wilt surely wear away both thou and this people that is with thee, for this thing is too heavy for thee, thou art not able to perform it alone.” And so he gives this counsel, you need to have more people or even better, you need to teach them, and then they need to govern themselves.

Hank Smith: 00:11:37 Wow. I am hearing so much application here for our listeners who, because we’re a Luke… Isn’t it, Luke 1 Dan? With God, all things are possible. We’re a with God, all things are possible people, and here we’ve got this great principle of you’re human and you’re going to wear out if you’re not delegating and teaching.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:12:05 That’s exactly it. Right. And it’s interesting because Jethro’s suggesting one, you’ve got to have more help. Two, we’ve got to figure out how the people need to be spiritually self-sufficient. They need to know the principles. They need to be able to govern themselves and move forward that way. And that’s just a principle that you see, I think across all dispensations, don’t you? That this idea that you cannot rely on the leadership alone. In the Book of Mormon, when Mosiah makes the changes, Mosiah two, makes the changes to the governmental structure. One of the reasons he provides this, it’s not particularly fair that one person, the king, has to pay the price for all of this. And so he creates this equality in the land, but the way it’s phrased is the equality for everyone pay the price for their behavior, individually.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:12:57 And you see this in Doctrine & Covenants. The idea that the more that the Lord has to tell us, the more we lose out on some blessings or understandings. The more things have to be spelled out the less we have in terms of our own spiritual growth. And Paul talks about that in Corinthians, where he points out that you guys are suing one another and yeah, you can need to take it up within the church, but the truth is, figure out how to resolve it yourself. It’s just this idea over and over and over again, that we are ultimately responsible for our own spiritual welfare.

Hank Smith: 00:13:31 Yeah. I would love to just flush out this just a little bit more, John, why don’t you, because I’m sure you have some addition here just as serving as Bishop, the idea… Because I’ve seen bishops do this, I’ve seen relief society presidents do this. They take on everything in an effort to be the best bishop, the best servant they can be. They sometimes wear themselves out. Did you see that at all?

John Bytheway: 00:13:57 You’re just trying to do your job and do what the Lord wants you to do. And sometimes you need a Jethro to come along and help you. I think when I was a bishop, there was some counsel we got to push more to the ward council and now it has been shifted even more where you remember Elder Cooks talk a couple of general conferences ago about, let the elders quorum presidency and the relief society presidency help with some of the counseling and things. And they’re trying to move the bishops closer to the youth, have made the bishops the young men’s president now. And get them closer to the youth. And so we see it still going on and it’s not only a cultural shift for the leadership, but for all of the members. Well, I don’t want to talk to you those quorum president, I want to talk to the Bishop.

John Bytheway: 00:14:46 And we’re trying to help the bishops be able to do all they need to do and take care of their families. This is an issue that has always gone on. Where there’s a leader, no, don’t pass me off to one of the leaders of 1000s or 100s or 50s. I need to talk to Moses. You can see that happening. I remember when I was in Aaronic Priesthood, somebody did a lesson on this and they passed out an organizational chart and it had Moses at the top. And then all of these categories, it was like commerce, agriculture, traffic, bicycle licenses. And it was just like 60 of them that were all Moses. And it said under this plan, it took Moses 40 years. And then here’s Jethro’s plan and it showed this organizational chart. Somebody just was clever and made this, but could it be one of the earliest lessons on delegation that we’ve ever seen?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:15:37 I’ve never been bishop, but I was the executive secretary for a bishop. And he was like, I think all bishops probably are. He was just made sure that he was available for the members, but there was something that I saw and I would counsel him against. I said, “I think there’s what I almost call spiritual vampirism.” You’ve got a few people that rely on the spirituality of the bishop to give them their spirituality. So they were constantly calling him late at night and saying, “I need a blessing.” And we don’t want to not give blessings. But the idea was is that it was really encroaching a lot on the bishop’s time and using his spirituality to be their spirituality. Does that make sense what I’m saying there? And it would be like, “Okay, how are we going to resolve this? How’s this going to work out?” Because this individual’s taking a lot of your time from your family, a lot of your sleep to borrow your spiritual strength.

Hank Smith: 00:16:29 And Dan, I like what Jethro says here is he says, “You’re not only going to wear away, but this isn’t good for the people.”

John Bytheway: 00:16:36 Yeah.

Hank Smith: 00:16:36 This is not good for this people. It’s almost like Moses is a bottleneck. If everything has to run through you, we’re never going to get anything done. And people are going to spend most of their time, life waiting in line. And we don’t want people to spend their life waiting to talk to you.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:16:52 Or they’ll blame Moses for whatever happens. There’s no agency here.

John Bytheway: 00:16:56 Yeah. Make this decision for me and if it’s not right, believe me, I’ll come back and I’ll tell you. And I found a lot of times as a bishop, boy, had somebody once that just finally said to me, “You’re not going to tell me what to do. Are you?” And I said, “No, I’m not, this is a big one, but this is yours. You need to own this and decide. And do you trust the Lord to guide you? Because I do, but I’m not going to make that one for you.”

John Bytheway: 00:17:21 I’m reminded as we’ve been talking about President Nelson’s emphasis on learn to hear Him for yourself. Some of the things you mentioned, Dan, I thought, well, yeah, I loved how… And I know Hank loves this, he’s given a talk on it, but how the Lord deals with the brother of Jared and the brother of Jared tries to hand the Lord the problem. And the Lord says, “Wow, what are you going to do about that?” And pushes it right back to him. And it took me a while to learn as a bishop to go, “Wow, what are you going to do about that?”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:17:45 Yeah. And even better, the brother of Jared story is great because he then goes on to say, “What are you going to do about it?” Oh, and by the way, you can’t do this, this, this and this.

John Bytheway: 00:17:53 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:17:56 You can almost see brother of Jared going, “Well, you know what? I would drill a hole.” “Yeah. You’re not going to do that.” “Fire?” “No, that’s not going to happen.”

John Bytheway: 00:18:02 Fire’s a bad idea on a boat. Let’s see.

Hank Smith: 00:18:04 That’s so great. And it’s almost as if the brother of Jared is saying, “It sounds like, you know what I should do? Go ahead and tell me.” “No. No.”

John Bytheway: 00:18:14 It makes me laugh. It’s like, listen, in a later scripture, you’re going to say, if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God. I just did. And you said, “What will you have me do?” “So you need the growth, Mahonri.” So you go figure it out and I’ll inspire you a little bit.” It’s a great story.

Hank Smith: 00:18:34 Dan, I had to learn this as a professor. When I first got there, I don’t know if you remember, but in my office I would constantly have some students in there. And I liked it. I had a good time, but I could see that there are a couple of students that their spirituality, all of a sudden, was coming and sitting in the office and I’m going, “Oh no, what have I…” I’ve created this on my own. I did this. I, you know, I told the story in class about, oh, I was talking to so and so a student in my office the other day, and she’s telling me about this. And all of a sudden, I’ve got five lined up, ready to have some spiritual time. And I’m like, “Holy cow, I think I did this too.” It took me a couple of years before I learned to-

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:19:14 I should point out I haven’t had students come to my office like Hank. That’s the friendliness of Hank-

John Bytheway: 00:19:19 There’s a take a number outside his office.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:19:22 It’s like, whoa boy.

John Bytheway: 00:19:23 And it’s like the DMV there.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:19:26 Down the hallway, “Hey there, your door’s open. Do you know of Hank?” I’m like, “Yeah, down the hall.”

Hank Smith: 00:19:32 I think I was hurting the kids. Some of those students, I was enabling and they needed to figure out some of these things on their own or go to the proper channel.

John Bytheway: 00:19:41 The brother of Jared grew through that experience. That’s the outcome I think the Lord wanted there was, for the brother of Jared to grow. First little lesson portion here. I can help bear the burden of doing the Lord’s work. As you read the council Moses received from his father-in-law, ponder how you can be like the men of truth, sometimes translated, trustworthy men, described in verse 21. And how can you help bear the burden of your church leaders?

John Bytheway: 00:20:10 And then also you might so consider whether you at times are trying to do too much. How might Jethro’s council apply to you? Like I said, this has always been an issue and starting in Exodus and even today, “Am I doing too much? Can I delegate more?” And when we don’t delegate, we’re not helping other people grow too. My mission president always used to say, “A good leader trains leaders as he leads.” And he wanted to help other people grow through experience.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:20:39 The challenge I think at least in leadership position is when you do that, you open up the potentiality to failure. Or if you’re in a bishop or in a leadership and you delegate something, is it going to be done? How’s it going to be done? Interestingly for me, that’s where Numbers 11, the second half of the story kicks in. Because that’s where we pick up. And he actually has called 70 men. Someone else is going to do Numbers 11. So I don’t want to steal their thunder, but Numbers 11 has the calling of those 70. And he gathers them all at the tabernacle to have, I don’t know, leadership meeting of some kind and two of them don’t go.

Hank Smith: 00:21:16 They just don’t show up.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:21:18 For whatever reason, kids birthday party. They’re like, “Nope, can’t.”

John Bytheway: 00:21:22 The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:21:24 That’s exactly right. We had a soccer game. So what we’re… But it’s interesting because he takes the 70 out it says in verse 25 of Numbers 11, “And the Lord came down in a cloud and spake unto him and took of the Spirit that was upon him and gave it unto the 70 elders and it came to pass that when the Spirit rest upon them, they prophesied and did not cease. But there remains two men in the camp. The name of the one was Eldad and the other was Medad and the Spirit rested upon them. And they were of them that was written, but were not out in the tabernacle. And they prophesied in the camp.” What I think it’s intriguing about that is, it would suggest then that Moses wanted everyone to be in the tabernacle who was called, but there were other ways to accomplish what needed to be done.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:22:08 So I think one of the challenges that leaders sometimes do have is, not only do they take too much on their own, but they have a particular way they wanted things done. But if you’re going to delegate it to the ward council, you actually have to let the ward council do it their way. As long as the Spirit is present and people are doing their calling, then you need to learn how to trust them.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:22:30 And so I think that’s the second half of this lesson. Yeah. Now he calls them and now he’s got to trust that they’re going to be able to do it their way. And that’s when the young man runs tells Moses what’s happened. Joshua is like, “My Lord. You got to forbid them. Moses, you can’t let them do that.” And Moses’s response is, “Envious thou for my sake, would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets.” And to me, that right there is Moses as a leader, just going, huh? Oh man. If I could get the people to do this, that would be perfect.

Hank Smith: 00:23:01 Oh, this is such a great lesson. And I’m thinking as a parent, sometimes I do things for my children and I can hear Jethro saying, “You’re going to wear away and you’re going to wear away your children.” If it’s too heavy for a parent to do everything… Let me share with you a story that I’ve always thought was so funny. This is from Elder Bednar. He’s giving an example of this with children. And he says, “Let me give you a silly illustration. Sister Bednar and I have three sons. I like to have a yard that looks nice. And so I was fairly meticulous about how you mow the lawn. And I was famous in our neighborhood for the neatness of the trimming around the lawn. People would come into our neighborhood and say, “How do you do that?” They would come and ask for lessons.

Hank Smith: 00:23:45 So one day I began teaching one of our sons how to do this. And he messed it up. Now I know none of you have done this, but my first instinct was to take the weed eater away from him because I didn’t want him to mess it up. And then came one of these amazing moments where you think so, let me make sure I understand this, not messing up the trimming around the lawn is more important than helping your son learn? So he just obliterated the edges of the lawn, you know what? It grows back and it’s not a big deal.

Hank Smith: 00:24:16 And he did it a second time and he was bad if not worse than the first time. And each time it was horrible, but it got a little better. And the long run outcome was I didn’t trim the lawn anymore. And he did it just as well as I did. You have to take some inevitable hits on the front end and you’re invested in that and it’s kind of painful. And what was really cool is when he learned how to do it, his brother wanted to learn how to do it, which I never could have pulled off.” Just a great little anecdote about this same idea of allowing people to fail a little bit.

John Bytheway: 00:24:50 My mission president used to say, “Never come to your boss with a problem. Always come with a recommendation,” which was helpful to me as a bishop. But the ward council’s like, “Bishop here’s this problem.” I’d say, “What do you recommend? Or come back with a recommendation.” That’s the study it out in your mind part that section nine teaches us about. And so this is a fun topic because we all have experience in this.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:25:14 This is a very practical narrative. I think you don’t even have to be a believer to look at that and go, yes.

John Bytheway: 00:25:21 Yeah, that’s true.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:25:22 I see the wisdom of that lesson. When I was elders quorum president, “You know what? We’ve got to move. Will you call some people?” And my response was, “No. Now I’m willing to do it as your friend. And I’m willing to do it as your neighbor, but it is not part of my ecclesiastic calling to get people, to help you to move. That’s your responsibility. And I promise you, your neighbors will be more than happy to help, but it is your job.”

Hank Smith: 00:25:47 Yeah. It’s there’s no section 171 about elders quorum moving.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:25:52 I’ve looked in the handbook, it’s not there.

Hank Smith: 00:25:54 Yeah. Is there anything else in 18 you want to do? Because that was really fun. I thought that was so practical. And I think a lot of people listening will go. I probably do need to… I’m wearing away, I’m-

John Bytheway: 00:26:08 Well, I think we can look at the organization of the church and we can see in all of this, oh, this is why we have ministering brothers and sisters. This is why there are counselors. This is… And it’s brilliant. And we have to work at helping it work so that it all doesn’t end up on the bishop’s desk. But I like the way you put it, this is very practical. This is, we practice this every week.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:26:37 It all gets summed up in verse 26 and they judge the people at all seasons, the hard causes they brought unto Moses, but every small matter they judged themselves. And that should be how that goes. Then verse 27 just goes, and Moses let his father-in-law depart. And I think that says something about the relationship Moses has with his father-in-law. I think he took the advice. It tells us that Moses is humble, even now actually has a close relationship with his father-in-law. Close enough that he’s like, “Thank you. And can you stick around until these changes are in effect and counsel me further?” And when it all gets resolved, as supposedly does, Moses let his father-in-law depart. And Jethro went his own way into his own land. He is like, “You’re good. I’m going back home, send the kids down for summer vacation week.”

Hank Smith: 00:27:23 You did well.

John Bytheway: 00:27:24 Maybe Moses, well, Ramsey’s always just said, “So it shall be written. So it shall be done.” And everything happened. And so how do I do this?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:27:32 The names are slightly confusing, but it’s possible that Jethro actually used the one that gave Moses the priesthood, for instance. And by virtue of that it may have been not as priesthood authority, but certainly a priesthood advisor, if that works. And by virtue of that, then this is practical priesthood administration advice as well. How the counselors of the church should run. You can do a comparison with this with Doctrine Covenants 1:21 and how to administer and use the priesthood properly. Persuading.

John Bytheway: 00:28:04 Long suffering, brotherly kindness.

Hank Smith: 00:28:06 I thought I heard a little Joseph Smith in there, teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves. Was he pretty effective at this idea of you take it, you go?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:28:17 I think when you look at the history for instance, of Zion in Missouri, I think you’d have to look at that as a place where yeah, just by virtue of the limitations of travel and communication, there’s a lot of things that are similar with the ancient world. But as I look at these two, in terms of the ability to communicate and the ability to travel, these two limited if you had the church organization. In the New Testament, one of the challenges that arose was the fact that you now had these congregations, but if there was any type of local changes in authority or persecution, you’re not going to be able to get people into the city and you’re not going to be able to get letters or epistles to them.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:28:56 So it doesn’t take long. And even if you could, it would take, I don’t know, a letter if you wrote in Jerusalem to get to Rome, two months? And so get two months there, two months back, that’s a lot of time to travel down to Zion from Kirtland for instance, it’s a couple of weeks. And so it doesn’t take long for things to go awry quickly. By virtue of that, I think just by the very necessity of things, people had to rely more on the spiritual independence for lack of a better term of others. You had no choice.

Hank Smith: 00:29:33 That is such a perfect verse in 26, every small matter they judged themselves. You got to be able to figure it out on your own. This is such a great chapter.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:29:44 Well, and then the other element of that is what exactly is a small matter? I think that’s subjective too, isn’t it? I would think too hopefully you’ve taught people the law and the principles well enough that by far, most things are small matters. 1st Corinthians, the letter that Paul writes to the people of Corinth. It’s intriguing because it’s got some big matters and it’s got a bunch of small matters and they can’t distinguish between the two. And then there’s some matters that should never have been a matter at all and yet clearly are. So you look at it and go, that’s a big matter, but it should never have been one. You know the answer to that question, that’s a given. That should never have been an issue, but you made it an issue. And so I think sometimes there are small matters that become big matters, but never should have been.

Hank Smith: 00:30:35 I’m writing spiritual self-reliance, right across the top of the page. And as a leader too helping people develop and having confidence in themselves and not saying, “Yeah, come to me, look to me.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:30:50 And we’ve put this in the context of priesthood. And yet that holds anyone within any really priesthood authority position that includes relief society presidents. My experience, and granted, and it’s subjective and anecdotal, when I was elders quorum president and I’d have my counterparts relief society president, they can take a lot on. We think of the bishop who has to use so much spiritual strength. I think relief society presidents carry a huge load in any given ward.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:31:21 And I think is in fact, one of their challenges too, because they don’t want to put anyone out and they’ve got members of their organization who are mothers and so they… All of these different things that take up time. I think a relief society president in many ways expends more time and energy than other, maybe other leaders. I can’t say that, but in the sense they have a lot of responsibilities and this importance, the lesson of delegation. And then learning to trust that delegation, once you’ve delegated it, now let them figure out how to do it themselves is as much a lesson for the relief society president as it is for the bishop. That’s for sure.

Hank Smith: 00:32:00 Absolutely young women’s president as well.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:32:03 Primary.

Hank Smith: 00:32:04 Yeah. On small matters. It’s good to give people the tools they need to figure this out on their own. So the next time they don’t come to you, they can do it on their own. So little training up front can really go a long way.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:32:19 I’ve described it before this way, that in some ways those in these leadership positions be they bishop, a relief society president, young women’s president, primary, whatever it is, elders quorum president, their job in some ways is to take care… Particularly the bishop, but to take care of almost emergencies that pop up, put out fires when they show up.

Hank Smith: 00:32:37 Yeah, the hard causes of verse 26.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:32:41 But there are chronic issues or endemic issues in a given organization. And that really should be the responsibility of the ward council, that we’ll take care of that. We’ve got long term issues that require more planning, more structure. That’s the job of the ward council. And we’ll go back and we’ll report on what we’ve been doing in terms of those larger chronic, endemic issues.

Hank Smith: 00:33:06 Maybe one of the most relevant chapters of the Old Testament I’ve ever seen.

John Bytheway: 00:33:10 Our listeners might want to go back and find elder Quentin L. Cook’s talk in April, 2021 general conference called Bishops Shepherds Over the Lord’s Flock and you’ll see some of these same principles we’ve been talking about outlined in that talk about delegation and letting people lead.

Hank Smith: 00:33:28 And I’ll tell you something I just thought of is, I’m sure grateful for the Jethros in my life who are willing to pull me aside and say, “I think this is a bad idea.”

John Bytheway: 00:33:38 And Hank, I’m looking at Exodus 18:24 thinking, I bet my father-in-law’s going to show me that verse. Moses hearkened unto the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said.

Hank Smith: 00:33:50 When someone pulls you aside and says, “The thing that thou doest is not good.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:33:55 Yeah. We just give straight to Exodus 19. That’s what we do when talking with my in-laws, just like what? Chapter 19?

Hank Smith: 00:34:01 Yeah. I don’t know. There’s no chapter 18. I’ve never read that one. All right. Well Dan, why don’t we keep going. Turn over 19 back to you again. So this is the beginning of what you’d say was this insert that’s going to last all the way through Numbers 11?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:34:15 Right. And I don’t know if insert’s the right language for it, but to say that they’ve clearly in some ways separated the story of the counselors or the calling of these helpers for Moses, and then gone into great detail about the next set of events. And these next events in 19 ended in 20, in many ways, get to the heart of what it means to be Israel. That the lineage of Jacob, we get that. But what’s about to happen in 19 is the emergence of a covenant that is going to make him distinctive. And so obviously all narratives of the Bible are of value, but in many ways, this one becomes a defining narrative for Israel than most.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:34:58 And this is probably why it has been at again from a source critical perspective, so worked and reworked and edited and additions put in from different groups are like, “Oh, you know what? This has affected us this way.” This is a story, this narrative and the events that happened in Exodus 19 and 20 are found in every book of scripture we have. They’re alluded to in the Book of Mormon, they’re referenced in the New Testament, they’re found in the Doctrine and Covenants. These events in 19 and 20 are fundamental and foundational into an understanding of Israel. And perhaps more importantly, the experience that Israel should be having.

Hank Smith: 00:35:37 A declaration of independence to the United States, right? Just fundamental to who we are.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:35:43 It’s if you’re going to be Israel, you need to understand the story.

Hank Smith: 00:35:47 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:35:48 And this is in many ways, this is where it begins. Well, it starts right off there. It’s the third month they’ve left Egypt. They’ve gone through the Red Sea. When traveling, they get to Sinai, it’s taken three months to get there, but they’re finally at Sinai. And when they get to Sinai, Moses is called by the Lord to the top of the mountain. In many ways, he’s been to Sinai already, he wants the burning bush story. And now they’re finally to Sinai and the Lord calls him back up. When he gets up there, a covenant or at least covenant terminology appears beginning in about verse three and it’s going to run through verse six. And so when you look at, it says, “thou shalt say to the house of Jacob, unto the children of Israel, you have seen what I did under the Egyptians and how I bare you on eagles wings and brought you unto myself.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:36:34 Now, therefore, if you will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people for all the earth is mine.” When I read that, there’s a number of elements to it. The first one is something I teach my students is the role of therefore, in verse five. It’s a conjunction. Conjunctions are a value in the scriptures. They’re not in intrinsically doctrinal. They’re not like the word atonement, which just brings up a whole constellation of ideas and concepts.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:37:05 But what they do is establish relationships that allow us to fully grasp doctrine. And in this case, we’re dealing primarily with a covenant. But what I find fascinating is how it sets up the concept of faith. In the sense it says, you know what I’ve done, therefore, you can trust me when I tell you what I’m going to do. You know it, you’ve experienced it. You have this understanding. And therefore, when I tell you I’m going to do this, you can trust that. And that seems essential to me. That to me is a great example of faith. You know what I’ve done, therefore, when I tell you I’ll do this, trust me.

Hank Smith: 00:37:48 I’ve given you some enough evidence for you to go on that you can now step out in faith here.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:37:54 And that’s a big deal because I think sometimes we define faith too often as an engagement where we let act knowledge. So it’s, I don’t know, therefore I have to have that faith. And yet in this case, and I think in all cases where I see it in the scriptures, dealing with faith, it’s reliant on what you do know. And the more you know, the more faith you have. And I think that connection to knowledge is something that we don’t often think about, but is absolutely vital to faith. Your faith is stronger, the more you know.

Hank Smith: 00:38:25 Yeah. And the more you experience.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:38:26 The more you understand and see the Lord’s hand in your life. And that’s why gratitude, I think is an important principle. God doesn’t need it because His self-esteem is so fragile. And if it’s not for Him, then it’s got to be for whom? And what I find interesting about gratitude is when you are engaged in true gratitude, prayer, whatever context it’s going to be, it becomes revelatory. Example that I give is sometimes when you’re hiking up a mountain, you can’t see over the next ridge and the next set of switchbacks. And it’s just exhausting.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:38:57 But if you turn around and look behind you to see how far you actually have come up the mountain, it gives you strength to go up that next set of switchbacks. You might not know what’s ahead, but you do know what’s behind. And so gratitude is revelatory in much the same way prophecy is, it’s revelatory. And it reveals to you what has been done and particularly the way in which the Lord’s been involved in your life, which gives you the power and the strength to move forward into the future with that trust.

Hank Smith: 00:39:25 It seems to be a theme in the Book of Mormon. Remember what the Lord has done, remember what the Lord has done, so you can move forward in trust because you’ve seen it done in the past.

John Bytheway: 00:39:35 Yeah, we see it in Moroni’s promise. Sometimes we go too fast, past Moroni 10:3. Ponder how merciful God has been since the creation of Adam and ponder it in your hearts.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:39:49 It’s more subtle in scriptures, but I think there’s a powerful theme in there of… And not necessarily being reflected in these verses, but you can find places where the Lord says, “And I’ll remember you. I remember you. I remember these things. I’ll remember…” So there’s an element here of where you can find where God says, “I have faith in you. I trust in you.” And I think that’s a strength that we ought to keep. Paul talks about that in Galatians. That he’s sustained by his faith in Christ who trusted in him too. And so this, this idea that we’re sustained by God’s faith in us, as well as our faith in God, I think it’s vitally important.

Hank Smith: 00:40:30 Yeah. And the thing that He’s reminding them of isn’t small. You saw how I got you out of Egypt. That’s not a thing that anybody missed, and it’s, what happened?

John Bytheway: 00:40:41 Did you notice that object lesson?

Hank Smith: 00:40:44 Yeah. You remember when we walked through the Red Sea, that wasn’t a magic trick. That was me. And the therefore becomes quite strong at that point. Therefore-

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:40:55 Therefores are a big deal in the scriptures. And when you find them, they’ll help you establish relationships between the concepts. Sometimes they’re cause and effect. Sometimes they’re summative, but either way, they’re always going to demonstrate a relationship in these two elements of a text. They’re powerful.

John Bytheway: 00:41:12 Dan, can you tell us, because I think I remember Brent taught that we’ve also had on the podcast. I think he has a whole book about a peculiar treasure, but is it segula, the Hebrew or something for peculiar treasure?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:41:26 We see the principle of faith being expressed here or the reliance on faith. But when you get into the actual promises that are being made, they’re contingent, “You know what I’ve done, therefore, if you accept my covenant, if you keep my covenant, then I’m going to make you a peculiar treasure.” This segula. And it does mean treasure. And he defines it further as a treasure above all people. It’s going to be identifying, this unique identifying marker that will mark Israel and demonstrate their uniqueness. Or what God has planned for Israel in terms of uniqueness, that is further outlined in verse six, when he says, “You shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.” So when He talks about this peculiar treasure, He then specifies it and says, and by that, I mean ultimately a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:42:17 Now the Hebrew phrasing there for that kingdom of priests, this mamlechet kohanim is tricky, the way it’s constructed in the Hebrew. And I don’t want to bore people with all the details that lies behind that, but it’s led to a variety of different translations. And what exactly a kingdom of priests is, how literal are we supposed to take this? Do we take this within the constructive form? Or can they be two absolute noun forms, meaning you shall be unto me, kings and priests? That’s the way some have translated this. Kingdom of priests certainly works here, but people have a question as to who exactly is meant to be a kingdom of priest? And what would that mean? What is a priest? What would a kingdom of priests look like? And to some degree that interpretation, how you understand that is governed by what you think is about to follow in terms of an experience.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:43:08 And what I mean by that is Moses goes down off the mountain, asks Israel and says, okay, so this is what God has said. If you’re willing to keep His covenant, He’ll make you a peculiar treasure, a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. What do you think? And the people all answer in verse eight. “Well, the Lord has spoken. Well, yeah, we’ll do it.” So Moses goes back up the mountain. This is the second time up the mountain now. And he says, “The people agree to this,” to which the Lord says, “Awesome. Let’s seal the deal.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:43:34 When we think of a covenant, sometimes we focus in on the oath of the covenant. That the speaking or the agreements made between the two parties, but at least in the Old Testament, more oft than not a covenant carries with it an act, a ritual act, a formal act of some kind that represents the ratification of this relationship that’s been established. Whether it’s a meal, whether it is a changing of clothing, whatever it is, there’s an act that goes with the oath. And those two things, the oath that’s made between the two parties and the formal act that ratifies that relationship, those two things got to go hand in hand in terms of the covenant making process.

Hank Smith: 00:44:18 I would love for our listeners to get at least a glimpse into this idea, because we have young Latter-day Saints who go through the temple and they’re like, “I don’t know what that was. What is going on?” And I think this is some understanding that you can give them and say, “Look, when God makes covenants in the Old Testament, there’s a…” I like what you said, “An act of ratification, whether it be of dinner, a change of clothes.” Is that similar to what you’d say, “Hey, this is what happens today. And then the endowment, we make an agreement we’re going to ratify this agreement?”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:44:51 Yeah. More oft than not ritual is social. It’s a communal act. Even if it’s done on an individual level, it’s communal at some level, because it demonstrates inclusion into a group or the maintaining the structure of the group, or ultimately to exclude from a group. If behaviors are as such a manner that they’re no longer conducive to that community, then you have rituals of exclusion or excommunication. But most rituals have to do with inclusion into a group, a community, or maintaining the integrity of that community. You can think of that from a Latter-day Saint perspective, as we look at our ordinances, Elder Bednar has talked about this to some degree and pointed out that it’s, our ordinances are more than ritual, but having said that they carry with it these social elements of ritual, we have baptism, which is inclusion into a community. We have the sacrament, which maintains the integrity of the community.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:45:44 Obviously the temple has a whole series of them. And going along with that is that more oft than not they have new understandings of identity. Who you are, your definition of yourself changes as you move through this. If you go to baptism, what changes in your sense of self? Well, now you are a member of the Church of Christ. You are a brother and sister in the gospel with these people that are around you. In the temple there’s no question that there is a new identity that’s being established. Or if not a new identity, an understanding of your true identity. Let’s put it that way. A divine nature, perhaps in this manner so explicitly demonstrated.

Hank Smith: 00:46:29 These acts of ratification are not just, “Hey, let’s seal the deal. It’s let me teach you as well.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:46:35 Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Hank Smith: 00:46:36 Okay.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:46:36 Right. Particularly, ultimately dealing with identity, which becomes so fundamental to your engagement with that community or that group.

Hank Smith: 00:46:45 Okay. Yeah. This is really great because you saw what I did. I want to do something grand with you. I want to make you peculiar. And the idea by the way, we’ve talked about this before. I don’t know if we need to hit it again, but God doesn’t say, you’re better than other people. He’s saying “I can use you to bless the whole earth. The whole earth is mine.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:47:07 In fact, you can see that in there with that kingdom of priests. However you’re going to define priests, a priest has the primary function to act as an intermediary or an intervener between God and others. That’s the function of a priest, to bless others and bring them closer in their relationship with God. That is the function of a priest. This event in Exodus 19 and 20 seems at least to me to be one of the central themes to the Book of Hebrews as well. And so for instance, in chapter five, it does talk about the priesthood there and why God calls priests. The purpose for those priests is to he says, “Bring gifts and sacrifices unto the Lord,” but it goes further to say so that they have compassion upon the ignorant and the out of the way.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:47:51 That suggests right there, that at least to the writer of Hebrews, that one of the primary functions of the priesthood and therefore of calling a priest, a high priest in that case is to show compassion upon the ignorant and the out of the way. And that’s a whole other discussion in and of itself, which you guys can deal with when you get into the New Testament. But the idea that the priesthood has a function to demonstrate compassion on two particular groups, the ignorant and those that are out of the way, I think is telling. And that element of it with the out of the way that does remind me of the concept of succoring that is found in the Book of Mormon. That’s exactly who you succor. Those who are out of the way.

Hank Smith: 00:48:30 Is the author here connecting this to the same covenant of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Where they were kind of called the same way, “I’m going to set you apart to bless the earth.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:48:39 It’s certainly possible. You have an allusion back to this concept of a holy nation. And yet having said that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not being mentioned explicitly here at all. That doesn’t mean this isn’t a connection back to it, but it does suggest that this is in some ways, a new element to these older covenants. There’s a new focus, a new perspective with a new set of people. They’re not the patriarchs, they’re another group of people who’ve had their own experiences. I think it does tie back. But what you’re about to see, particularly in Leviticus, the Leviticus has a law version of this law code that we’re about to receive. And it stresses their importance to be holy. And Deuteronomy is going to refer to them as a holy people. Moving forward the association of Israel as holy becomes really significant, and I could be wrong as I think back to the Abrahamic covenant, he isn’t referred to as holy.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:49:36 That doesn’t mean he wasn’t holy. There’s clearly a distinction and a separation, which is what some people believe holy means, the Hebrew word for holy this kodesh, means at some level to separate. That there’s a level of separation. And that seems to be the case here, there will be nations and then there will be a holy nation. And that holy nation has a different function and a different purpose. Now that can lead into a greater discussion as to what the nature of holiness is. And so, while I mentioned that it just says separation some good biblical scholars have noted that the concept of holiness carries it with a sense of wholeness or completion. To complete or finish something, to be whole as if to suggest then that if Israel, I’m going to ask you to be holy, I really ask you to be whole, complete.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:50:23 And then you play with that even further, is there two adjectival forms of this word holy, that gets translated to the word holy. And the distinction between those two suggests a level of dynamics or a dynamicism meaning that things that are kadosh like, God, the holy one of Israel are expected to make things holy, as opposed to things that are kodash, which are holy. They’re sacred, they’re separated, but they’re holy. This becomes a big deal when you get into, for instance, Leviticus 19, that says be holy, even as I am holy.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:50:57 So now the question is which adjectival form is being expressed? And what does that say? If it says kodash, then He’s simply saying, I want you to be holy, separate, sacred, even as I am. But if He’s using kadosh, then He’s got a bit of a different nuance to this. I want you to not only be holy, but I want you to make things holy, even as I am holy. And that dynamic element ties in, I think to all of this. Now in this case, it’s going to be kodash because it’s a perfect an adjective for the noun, a nation. But when He actually commands Israel to be holy, it’s going to be kadosh. He expects Israel to make things whole, make things complete, make things finished. Tie it all together that’s what ordinances often do. Ordinances help us become whole and complete and finished.

Hank Smith: 00:51:47 Going back to your acts of ratification, is ordinance kind of the same idea there?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:51:53 Well, ordinance is an English word, which is nice and vague. In this, it can represent ritual behavior and it can also represent legal precedences.

Hank Smith: 00:52:03 Okay. Yeah. That’s going to say it is nice and vague. You can get it in church. You can do it in the city, the county building, the ordinance.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:52:12 That’s exactly right.

Hank Smith: 00:52:13 The nice and vague. That could be my autobiography title. Nice and vague.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:52:19 Nice and vague.

Hank Smith: 00:52:21 I see here, the Lord saying I’d like to do this. I like that Moses asks the people, there’s an agency there. “Do you want to do this?” “Yes we do.” “Okay. Let’s…” Now how are they going to ratify it?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:52:33 Okay. That’s where it begins to pick up down here in verse 10. Moses comes back up and says, the people have agreed. We’ve had our oath. You said what you would do. We said what we would do. So the ratification begins and the Lord says unto Moses, “Go onto the people and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes. And be ready against the third day. For the third day, the Lord will come down in the sight of all the people upon Mount Sinai.” So what he’s being told is, okay, we’ve all agreed. Now let’s seal the deal. I’m coming down in three days. If I’m going to make you a kingdom of priests, then we probably ought to meet. And so I’m going to come down in three days and I’m going to do it in the sight of all the people. All the people should be able to see me. And that’s what we’re going to do. That’s our meeting.

Hank Smith: 00:53:24 And what’s the idea of washing your clothes? What’s the idea of washing yourself?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:53:29 Well, I think everyone knows that you have to be clean clothes in the presence of God. He doesn’t like dirty clothes. No, I’m just… Actually, I don’t think He cares much about the state of the clothing itself, but it will represent your spiritual state. What He’s telling Israel He says, “You’ve got three days to get ready because I’m coming down. And when I’m down, I expect to see you.” So it’s being represented in this. I don’t think the Lord is actually going to have a huge problem if someone’s got dirty clothes or scuffed up hems, but they will represent their spiritual state. It does represent their spiritual state.

Hank Smith: 00:54:04 Much like the unleavened yeast in their house. He’s probably not overly concerned about how much yeast you have in your house, but He is concerned about how much corruption you have in your life.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:54:13 It’s the principle that’s in play here. And then in verse 12, now in the meantime set up this boundary around the base of Mount Sinai so that nobody comes up here unprepared and sees me on top of Sinai.

Hank Smith: 00:54:26 I like that. Put a boundary up. There’s a temple recommend desk, right at the base of Sinai.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:54:33 And then 14. And so Moses goes down. He tells the people sanctify and get ready for the third day. And in verse 16, there’s the third day. And you have all of the meteorological phenomenon that is associated with the presence of God. When you have a theophany, this is what you’re going to have. There’s thunders, there’s lightnings, there’s clouds. The voice of the trumpet. This is a true, full blown theophany that’s happening on Mount Sinai.

Hank Smith: 00:55:01 This is great.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:55:02 Now what happens next is where this gets a bit tricky. And this is a place where scholars point out things get a little unexpected. Because what happens is, that Moses brings all the people out of the camp and they stood at the nether part of the mountain and Mount Sinai is, the Lord’s there He’s descended onto the top of the mountain. And you get verse 20, where from the top of Sinai, Moses is called up the top of the mountain again. The Lord calls Moses to come up there. And then you get verse 21. And the Lord said unto Moses, “Go down, charge the people lest they break through under the Lord to gaze, and many of them perish.” The instruction set is basically, you have got to make sure that boundary is in place because I don’t want the people coming up here to see me.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:55:48 Now, this is tricky because back there in verse 11, it suggests that seeing God was in fact, the intended purpose for this day’s visit. That this was exactly what was supposed to have happened. And yet now when it happens, the Lord’s like, “Oh, set up that boundary. I don’t want anyone coming up here to see me.” And as difficult as it sounds in verse 21, it makes it sound as if the reason they’re not meeting is because of God Himself. In other words, “Go down, charge the people lest they break through.” It sounds like the people are at the boundary and want to do what?

Hank Smith: 00:56:22 They want to come up.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:56:23 They want to come up. They want to do this. And the Lord’s like, “Nope, Nope. I’m rescinding my offer. We’re not doing that today.”

Hank Smith: 00:56:31 That’s unexpected. Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:56:33 It is unexpected. And when you look at earlier elements in the book of Exodus, everything has been leading to Israel is going to have this relationship with God. Israel’s going to do these things. Israel’s going to do it, until the event happens and all of a sudden Israel’s not allowed to. And that’s tricky. It’s what I say, it gets tricky in the text. Because it’s not what you would expect. It’s not what the text is setting up. And so we’ve got a bit of a disjoining. If that makes any sense. It just it’s disconected, it doesn’t feel right. And that’s where chapter 20 comes into play. Now I know that the first part of it deals with the 10 commandments. But if you pick up the narrative in verse 18, the first 17 verses or so deal with the 10 commandments.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:57:16 But if you pick up the narrative again in verse 18, here’s what we have. And all the people saw the thunderings and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet and the mountain smoking and when the people saw it, they removed and stood a far off. What you have are kind of two different versions now of the same event. In the first one, it seems to be it’s the Lord saying, “Yeah. I’m not going to let you come up here and see me.” But now we get Exodus 20, it’s not the Lord that is holding people back from seeing Him, it’s what? It’s the people themselves. They saw this and they removed and stood a far off.

Hank Smith: 00:57:53 The Lord, verse 21 back in Exodus 19 says, “Lest they perish.” They say something very similar in the next in 20, “We don’t want to go up there lest we die.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:58:03 That’s exactly right. And you can see that in verse 19. And they said unto Moses, “Speak thou with us and we will hear, but let not God speak with us lest we die.” So you have two different versions, the same things happening, which means on this day, Israel was expected to see God, but did not see God. Chapter 19 suggests that maybe it’s because for whatever reason, God wasn’t feeling it that day. And then you get chapter 20, which is like, nope, the people themselves removed themselves. Moses goes on, verse 20, “Fear not for God has come to prove to you and that His fear may be before your faces.” And the people stood a far off and Moses drew near unto the thick darkness where God was. In this pivotal event, this covenant, which was to be ratified by the people becoming a kingdom of priests, apparently by entering into the presence of God Himself, it didn’t happen.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:58:56 It didn’t happen. And that’s where this event becomes now this, for lack of a better term, a lesson throughout any scripture dealing with Israel. Again, it’s going to be alluded to in Deuteronomy 5 and Deuteronomy 10. Interestingly, from those perspectives, they’re not going to take the chapter 19 version of the story. They’re going to take the Exodus 20 version of the story. That it was the people that removed. It was the people that said, “We don’t want to hear,” the people that did these things.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:59:23 And it’s at this point where the Book of Mormon becomes valuable to us. Because in Jacob 1:7, Jacob’s describing the work that he and the other spiritual leaders were doing. And this is the way he describes it. He says, wherefore we labor diligently among our people that we might persuade them to come unto Christ and partake in the goodness of God that they might enter into His rest lest by any means He should swear in His wrath that they should not enter in. As in the days of the provocation, in the days of temptation, while the children of Israel were in the wilderness.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 00:59:53 Well, he’s used two phrases here that even though they don’t show up in Exodus 19 and Exodus 20, will in fact be alluded to elsewhere in the Old Testament, Psalm 95 in particular. And is this concept of entering into God’s rest and provoking the Lord, the provocation. Now the truth is Israel provokes the Lord all over the place in these stories. You’ve got the waters of Meribah, which are alluded to, you’ve got the golden calf story. You’ve got the quail story, you got Korah, you’ve got all of these narratives that will run through the rest of Exodus, through Numbers of where they clearly provoke the Lord. And by like take a stick and just poke that bear. But the ultimate provocation, it seems to be here Exodus 19 and 20. And you can actually see this best by restoration scripture.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:00:43 Meaning, if you turn to Doctrine and Covenants 84 beginning, yeah, 19 through 24. It’s going to set this up. He’s talking about the priesthood and about the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom, even the key of the knowledge of God. And points out again, that in the ordinances, both the laws and in the ritual that we associate the priesthood. And without the ordinances thereof and the authority of the priesthood, the power of godliness is not manifest unto men in the flesh. For without this, no man can see the face of God, even the father and live. So Joseph is explaining, or at least the Lord is explaining to Joseph ways in which the priesthood is necessary for this incredible experience to see the face of God. Now, verse 23, this Moses plainly taught to the children of Israel in the wilderness and sought diligently to sanctify his people that they might behold the face of God.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:01:37 This seems to be a direct illusion back to Exodus 19. That he did everything he could to sanctify his people to behold the face of God, but they hardened their hearts and could not endure His presence. That’s exactly what Exodus 20 describes. That they hardened their hearts and could not endure. They did not enter into His presence. And therefore the Lord in His wrath for His anger was kindled against them swore that they should not enter into His rest while in the wilderness. Which rest is the fullness of His glory. I.E, they could have been in the presence of God and they did not. And therefore he swore, while you’re in the wilderness, it’s not going to happen. This event where Israel enters into a covenant relationship with God of which the culminating element of that should have been an experience where they enter into the presence of God and they did not. And this seems to be the ultimate provocation.

Hank Smith: 01:02:31 And why do you feel like this is in the origin story? Is it because later on they’re going to do this so many times that it’s going to be a pattern of God wants this, you agree, and then you fail to live up to your obligation? That’s a pattern in my life.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:02:49 I think ultimately it’s because this is an experience that should be happening. This is if you are Israel, this is what’s going to make you separate and distinct, you have the opportunity to enter into the presence of the Lord. Hebrews chapter four and verse six, but as Christ as son over His own house, whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm into the end, wherefore as the Holy Ghost sayeth today, if you will hear His voice harden not your hearts as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness. That’s Psalm 95, and then he says, “When your fathers tempted me, proved me and saw my works 40 years, wherefore I was grieved with that generation and said, they do always harden their heart and have not known my ways.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:03:29 So I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest.” Now, if you go to chapter four, here’s how it begins. Let us therefore fear lest a promise being left us of entering into His rest any of you should seem to come short of it. The writer here is saying is that there was an early Christian understanding within the church in early Christianity that this promise applied to them as well. There’s a promise that if you do these things, you can enter into His rest, the fullness of His glory. This is a promise that defines, I think Israel, regardless of what dispensation you’re in, regardless of the differences of experience, this is a promise that is given to Israel, that I expect you to be a kingdom of priests, a holy nation. And by virtue of that, we’re going to have to meet.

Hank Smith: 01:04:18 Yeah. And yet, so many of us fall short of it, it’s so human. It’s God wants this I want this. And when it comes to the moment of choosing I fall short.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:04:32 I don’t know why Israel, part of it could have been that they look at that and went, “There’s no way I can be ready in three days.” So it’s back to this concept of faith. I always wonder about that. If I were told that the Lord is coming in three days and that I needed to meet him in three days, and here’s what I need to do to be ready. Do I think washing my clothes would make me ready in three days? Do I think I could do it? And yet my response to that is, if the Lord tells you that three days is enough, then it must be enough.

Hank Smith: 01:05:03 So they don’t believe Him?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:05:05 Yeah. At some level they don’t trust in that aspect of it. Chapter four of Hebrews continues this at the end of it talks about Christ and what He’s made possible. And then it describes, an experience, verse 16, “Let us therefore come boldly under the throne of grace.” Now that requires us to understand a little bit about the temple rather than the tabernacle. But if the throne of grace is God’s throne, then it’s within the holy of holies. And the same idea is repeated by the way, in Hebrews 10, which describes it this way. “This is a new covenant I will put in them.” This is chapter 10, verse 16. “I will put my laws into their hearts and into their minds will I write them and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” Now where remission of these is there was no more offering for sin, having therefore brethren boldness to enter into the holiest, by the blood of Jesus.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:05:52 These two chapters, talk about the ability to enter into holiest of places or approach the throne of God. What strikes me about it is not only does it suggest that the atonement of Christ makes it possible for us to enter into the presence of God, literally enter the presence of God, but in both verses, it talks about being able to do so boldly. There’s an understanding here that the atonement too of Christ makes it possible for us to be bold in the presence of God. And I don’t think that means disrespectful, and it doesn’t mean irreverent, but it does mean… Well, it means whatever you’re going to define boldness with. Confidence, surety? These are the things that Israel could have had entering into the presence of God and yet did not.

John Bytheway: 01:06:36 Alma gives such an awesome contrast in Alma five, “When you’re brought to stand before God, can you look up?” He doesn’t say, are you clean? Or are you prepared? He just says, I love this, “Can you look up?” And Alma 12:14, I think that first one’s Alma 5:14 or something, but Alma 12:14, you will not dare to look up. You will fame be glad to command the rocks and the mountains to fall upon you to hide you from His presence if you’re not prepared. But the idea of can you look up? Reminds me too, of Enos who says, then I will see His face with pleasure. And maybe that’s what that boldness means too. Because I’ve wondered, what does that mean boldly? It just, it means that you’re confident in the Atonement? You’re confident that you’re prepared because of what the Savior’s done for you?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:07:27 Joseph F. Smith tells the story of a dream he had. And for those of you who studied the life of Joseph F. Smith, that mission in Hawaii was tricky. That was difficult, very difficult.

John Bytheway: 01:07:35 He was 15 years old. Wasn’t he?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:07:37 15 years old.

John Bytheway: 01:07:39 Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:07:39 You read it, he felt very isolated, very alone, very forgotten.

John Bytheway: 01:07:43 He was sick when he got there.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:07:44 He was sick. He has this dream in which he’s going to go to the temple. And it’s a very famous one, we all know it. But to me, it’s a great example of this boldness. And can’t find his temple clothing, finally finds it, runs to the temple. There’s his what Uncle? Joseph Smith looking down on him, frowning disapprovingly. “Oh, you’re late Joseph.” And his response is, “Yes, but I’m clean.” And just walks right by him. That is that boldness. He knows he belongs there. He knows he deserves to be there and so he is. And so this boldness idea, I think John, you brought up Alma 5. One of the intriguing things about that is, that’s of course the wicked, right? But Alma actually described earlier in the verses that, do you look forward with an eye of faith? Do you see your mortality putting on immortality?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:08:35 Do you see your corruption putting on incorruption? Can you imagine unto yourselves, the God saying, “Enter in ye blessed.” And I know that he’s talking about it to the wicked going, “Or do you think that you’re going to be able to lie to God?” But I think those other questions are intriguing, because I think they tie into this boldness, which is, do we think about that often? Do we think about what it’s like to be in the presence of God? Do we imagine what eternal life is like? If those verses hold true Alma has just suggested that as weird as it sounds, imagination plays a fundamental role in the expression of faith. Looking forward with an eye of faith and seeing something that hasn’t been yet, but will be. Do you imagine it? Do you imagine what it’s like to be in the presence of God?

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:09:22 Do you imagine it? Do we explore the contours of what it means to have eternal life? And it seems to me that that longterm, that ability to not just look up but as Peter’s going to call it, see afar off. Becomes absolutely essential to survival. And in a day and age, particularly now, and this is me getting on my soapbox a bit, but in a day and age where so much information is flying around so fast, so often, that to some degree, there’s an element of where we’re constantly reacting to the barrage of inspiration that’s coming in. It’s a constant reaction. We have no choice, but to deal with what keeps flashing before our eyes all the time. And yet to see afar off means, you’ve got to lift yourself from that, lift your gaze from that and see a long perspective.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:10:11 In my Pearl of Great Price class, I talk about the importance of the vision of scale and recognizing that one of the things that when prophets have visions is more often not they’re shown the scale and the immensity of this work. It’s cosmic in scope. Moses sees the earth and all the inhabitants of the earth and every particle of the earth. And Enoch sees millions of earths like this. And Abraham has the work of God expanded before his eyes, and John and all of these individuals have this expansion of vision, not just the vision itself, but an expansion of an understanding of the cosmos and the work of God within that huge cosmic scale. And I think there’s an importance to seeing afar off.

Hank Smith: 01:10:56 They say, man is nothing, which I think I’d never suppose this idea of I’m seeing life in its proper perspective. Instead of like in it with information flying around me, I’m seeing, oh, I’m seeing it from God’s point of view a little bit.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:11:11 Right. Right. And that experience that the Israelites were meant to have, I think is tied into that. Why weren’t they ready in three days? I don’t know, but it makes me think they were concentrating on three days more than the horizon. They didn’t see afar off.

Hank Smith: 01:11:25 What if my clothes aren’t clean enough? Yeah.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:11:28 And maybe part of it is we don’t actually believe that that’s an event that can really happen. I don’t think we think enough about entering into the presence of God and what that’s like. And yet the Doctrine and Covenants is full of that. And the Book of Mormon has narrative after narrative of people who do, and the New Testament talks about it. There’s a promise. There’s a promise that’s given that this can happen so that you can bless all mankind. You’re expected to be a kingdom of priests to bless everybody. And so yeah, the story isn’t ultimately negative for Israel at that time for those 40 years, but it lays out an experience that any Israelite is expected to have in any dispensation. In fact, I’ve quoted enough of Hebrews, but there’s one more, you get to Hebrews chapter 12 and you get verse 18.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:12:18 And this is what it says, “For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, that burned with fire nor unto blackness and darkness and tempest, and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words,” that’s our illusion back to Exodus 19, isn’t it? Exodus 19:20. And it’s saying, “You are not supposed to have that experience,” verse 20, “For they could not endure that which was commanded. And so terrible was the sight that Moses said, “I extremely fear and quake.” He says, that is not the experience that we’re meant to have. Verse 22, “But ye are coming to Mount Zion and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and the church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:13:02 See that you refuse not him that speaketh. See that you refuse not him that speaketh.” This is the experience that Israel could have had and did not have. This is the experience that the writer of Hebrews is saying the Christians should have, whether or not they did is another story. And what I can tell you is that by 1832 in the great vision that Joseph Smith has of the three degrees of glory, these verses are alluded to in them. And show up then in a series of teachings from Joseph, from here to the end of his life. He’s constantly alluding to them. In 1842, I want to say, in September and October, writing for the Times and Seasons, Evening and Morning Star, I can’t remember which periodical it is, but he talks about this experience and says, “We ought to be having this. This is what the saints should be doing.”

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:13:55 This is an experience. And since I’m playing with that, here’s section 107. This is in our Doctrine and Covenants talking about the powers of the priesthood. You get verse 18, which says, the power and the authority of the higher or Melchizedek Priesthood is to hold the keys of all the spiritual blessings of the church. It’s then followed by a verse which appears to reflect the blessings, spiritual blessings of the church. To have the privilege of receiving the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, to have the heavens opened unto them, to commune with the general assembly and church of the firstborn, and to enjoy the communion and presence of God, the father and Jesus, the mediator of the covenant.

Dr. Daniel Belnap: 01:14:31 Now I don’t think we talk about this enough and yet it’s straight out, these are the spiritual blessings that the church has available. And so I’m back to the question that I’ve asked is, how often do we think about it? Do we even take these seriously? Do we think that they’re only for a certain select group of people? Or are they blessings that are available to anyone by virtue the Melchizedek Priesthood? And what does it mean if they are available to everyone?

Hank Smith: 01:15:01 Please join us for part two of this podcast.